How come in the Jordan era they had better TV ratings then now?

[Derivative]

Why is it that right now the NBA finals TV rating is not even close to the Jordan era? Isn't the NBA getting more popular and well know, so should there be more viewers?

[BlueCrayon]

There are two reasons that I could think of:

1. Jordan was immensely popular
2. More people are watching the games online?

[Derivative]

There are two reasons that I could think of:

1. Jordan was immensely popular
2. More people are watching the games online?


yea i think that's probably the reason

[Kews1]

There are two reasons that I could think of:

1. Jordan was immensely popular
2. More people are watching the games online?

thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiis

[bwink23]

yea i think that's probably the reason


Why would you watch it online when it's on national TV??

:confusedshrug:

[Ancient Legend]

It's just not the online watching. With Jordan you got highlights every single night and he always brought his A Game. The NBA lost a LOT of popularity the year after Jordan retired, and it was a strike season as well. It hasn't recovered to those levels yet.

[konex]

Because there are so many more entertainment options on tv these days.

[SpecialQue]

Because there are so many more entertainment options on tv these days.

This. More channels = fewer viewers for even major sports events.

[RRR3]

Music was a LOT better back then, though. There were still real rock bands
http://soundcheck.ocregister.com/files/2011/09/guns-n-roses-la-banda.jpg

:bowdown: :bowdown: :pimp:

[bwink23]

Michael Jordan brought in so many fans who wouldn't have been fans of the sport. I can't tell you how many guys lost interest in basketball after Jordan retired. The NBA was entering the "hip-hop" era at the time, and many old school fans didn't care for the attitude and dress that was perpetuating through-out the league...add in the high schoolers coming in, and the NBA lost that "professional" appeal.

[Nevaeh]

How come in the Jordan era they had better TV ratings then now?

Because no Player has come into the League who's as good as Jordan yet. Even casual fans notice the difference between MJ and every other Player.

[inclinerator]

less channels

[Indian guy]

Mainly technology(internet/iphone) - there are a thousand more ways to watch/follow sports now. A million more other things to do as well.

The best example is the superior TV ratings from 99-04, yet I don't think anyone's going to argue the NBA is less popular today then it was then.

[I<3NBA]

too many things to do today. remember back in Jordan's days that

1. there was no REALITY TV. no Jersey Shore or the Kardashians to watch
2. INTERNET was almost non-existent (universities were the early adopters. but homes were still internet-free)
3. less channels
4. casual fans tuned in to watch Jordan. even those who've never been a basketball fan.

[TheBluest]

Jordan never flopped and Jordan never disappointed NEVER!

[L.Kizzle]

No House Wives of Atlanta or X-Factor to compete with.

[RonArtestsBalls]

Simple.

You had the best player anyone had ever (whether or not people can admit it) seen putting on a nightly show.

You also had a much more physical game and a whole heap of dominant players at every position and on top of that players with real personality.

It was a much more entertaining game and the stars were a lot more likable.

Plus the game wasn't for a bunch of ******* as it seems to be now.

No touch fouls in that decade.

[Rowe]

You had less channels and basically only a handful of people had internet.

Wasn't much else to look at except tuning in to NBC or TNT to watch a basketball game, espescially with an exciting player like Jordan.

[DonDadda59]

Because there hasn't been a player since Jordan who captured people's interest as much as he did. It's pretty simple actually. All those people going on about more channels, internet, etc... How do you explain the ratings drop after Jordan retired following the first and then second threepeats? Were more channels created and the internet invented in '94... then again in '99? :oldlol:

http://www.rosswinnekins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nbapostseasonthrough2007.thumbnail.gif

[Myth]

I think that not only are some watching it online, but there is simply easier access to get information about what happened without watching it in its entirety at all. Casual fans may just shrug and say "I can look up the highlights or even catch the final minutes on youtube if I hear the ending was good." The big fans will always be consistent and watch the games live though.

[StarJordan]

Because there are so many more entertainment options on tv these days.

cable tv was already a big deal in 98 as was satellite and by 98 internet dot com boom was there also....yet bulls game 5 in the finals used to pull 20+ ratings....jordan alone was worth about 8-10 rating points in the nba finals...he could outdraw some of the past decade's nba finals just by showing up...he was arguably bigger than the rest of the stars of the nba combined

[Celtics4ever]

Jordan was a legend and he was known all over the world. My family in Italy that didnt even know how basketball was played knew of Jordan. He made Non-Basketball fans watch basketball. We will never get another player like Jordan.

LeBron is a phony. He is not known outside of the US

[Celtics4ever]

Because there hasn't been a player since Jordan who captured people's interest as much as he did. It's pretty simple actually. All those people going on about more channels, internet, etc... How do you explain the ratings drop after Jordan retired following the first and then second threepeats? Were more channels created and the internet invented in '94... then again in '99? :oldlol:

http://www.rosswinnekins.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/nbapostseasonthrough2007.thumbnail.gif

Nice find. A lot of people are too young to know how popular Jordan was. No one really watches basketball anymore.

[ConanRulesNBC]

Why is it that right now the NBA finals TV rating is not even close to the Jordan era? Isn't the NBA getting more popular and well know, so should there be more viewers?

Not here in the U.S.. Internationally, the NBA is getting more popular but here in the U.S. the NBA was way more popular in the '80s and '90s.

[SpecialQue]

Jordan, just like the Beatles, was also an excellent product to sell. Very easy to like and difficult to find flaws with (game wise especially), even if you don't like him.

[madmax]

duh, because it was an era of peak television - no internet to compete with (yet), NBA expanding their broadcasting rights overseas helped immensely too. I still remember how popular NBA was in the mid 90's in Europe - every teenager, who had a TV set at home, was crazy about Jazz, Sonics or Bulls battles. Since 00's, internet has taken over those young teenage minds and left TV in the dust - simple as that

[Sawbucks23]

Michael Jordan brought in so many fans who wouldn't have been fans of the sport. I can't tell you how many guys lost interest in basketball after Jordan retired. The NBA was entering the "hip-hop" era at the time, and many old school fans didn't care for the attitude and dress that was perpetuating through-out the league...add in the high schoolers coming in, and the NBA lost that "professional" appeal.

lol During our time, people who grew up in the 80's and 90's loved basketball mainly because of Jordan. You used to see mulitple pickup games at the local courts. Now, the courts are just empty and you hardly see people play anymore. :(

[nycelt84]

The reasons had little to do with watching online, the reasons were first Michael Jordan was the greatest draw in basketball history. The finals ratings during the 90's where he did not play dropped off sharply from the series that involved him, and there are many people who stopped watching basketball after his retirement from Chicago. Jordan was a cultural phenomenon who was marketed as the greatest player to ever play the game and a once in a lifetime athlete that you just could not miss.

Another important reason is that NBC did a much better job of marketing and presenting the game then ABC does. Ratings dropped off sharply in just 1 year with the move to ABC. And a lot of people didn't like the younger generation of players such as Allen Iverson and there was a strong image that the NBA was a league full of thugs hence the reason why David Stern implemented a dress code and instituted an even further crackdown on fighting.

[bwink23]

lol During our time, people who grew up in the 80's and 90's loved basketball mainly because of Jordan. You used to see mulitple pickup games at the local courts. Now, the courts are just empty and you hardly see people play anymore. :(


That is the TRUTH....We used to run game from 6 at night to 11 or 12 every day of the week. There wasn't a day you couldn't get a full court game going. Now, those same courts a barren wasteland.

SAD

[mika]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR7cd_N2LPU ding ding ding

[Celtics4ever]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR7cd_N2LPU ding ding ding

How I miss those days. Thanks for the memories Jordan.

Today's stars are a bunch of whimps. They are hyped up before they even prove themselves.

[nashwade]

music, tv, comics, sports were better back in the days

blame it on the internet, iphone, commercialisation

[Fatstogie]

Michael Jordan brought in so many fans who wouldn't have been fans of the sport. I can't tell you how many guys lost interest in basketball after Jordan retired. The NBA was entering the "hip-hop" era at the time, and many old school fans didn't care for the attitude and dress that was perpetuating through-out the league...add in the high schoolers coming in, and the NBA lost that "professional" appeal.

Yea exactly. Too many men wanna be another man. it wasnt about the sport. It was about man love.

Sad too though. Cause Lebron is better than Jordan but so many D*** riders out there who are so far up MJ's ass theyll never see the truth.

[kurt_rambis]

tv ratings for everything were better pre-internet

that and jordan is in the top 3 of all-time american athletes

[DCL]

jordan WAS the NBA

[jbryan1984]

Also, a lot of people watch everything on DVR these days, when it is convenient for them. They do not add the DVR ratings into the live ratings. I watch everything but basketball on DVR. Basketball I watch live cause I like to get on here a lot and get into the conversations and all my friends and my brother will text me and spoil shit for me.

[97 bulls]

Lets not forget Rodman. Rodman was an icon in his own right. I know alot of females loved to watch him. And just people iin general wanted to watch him to see whhat he was gonna do.

Just think. People didntt start wearing tattoos all over their body until Rodman started wearing them. People didnt color their hair. Now its the norm

And dont forget Kukoc bought in the european audience too.

Combine that with Jordans exploits and overall charisma (the tounge, the dunking, etc) and the Bulls just steamrolling through the NBA.

[ConanRulesNBC]

As much as the NBA hypes the current players, they just can't compare to Jordan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Stockton, Reggie Miller, Barkley and those guys.

[Coffee Black]

Did OP miss out on 90s NBA? I hope its not because of your birth date.

[f0und]

Back then the overall quality of the product was better. When i talk to people who were fans or just casual fans of the nba back the, they all got turned off by the general culture of the game and players. How theyve become more selfish, whiny, and immature. Just overall less professionalism.

Oh and the GOAT and most exciting player retiring didnt help either.

[dude77]

Lebron is better than Jordan


http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc494/steelermia/alain_delon_gif.gif

[JohnnySic]

Basketball peaked in popularity in the early-mid 90's. Even college ball was mainstream. The NBA was approaching NFL levels. Then it fell off...

[StarJordan]

that said if the nba finals involving a team from OKLAHOMA can draw big ratings the nba is on an upswing ...its not like the 2000s....ratings are back up and headed in right direction, miami is a popular team and basketball is getting a lot of hype these days

[G.O.A.T]

Because there are so many more entertainment options on tv these days.

This is the reason, TV ratings are way down for every network show because Cable doesn't suck anymore and there are 100's of great options online as well.

[DonDadda59]

tv ratings for everything were better pre-internet

that and jordan is in the top 3 of all-time american athletes

Nah son.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Super-Bowl-Through-2010-500x392.png

Why hasn't more channels, the internet, global warming, or whatever random excuse people come up with affected the Superbowl's ratings (which sets new highs every year) like it affected the NBA finals ratings after Jordan's retirement(s)?

[Knoe Itawl]

Nah son.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Super-Bowl-Through-2010-500x392.png

Why hasn't more channels, the internet, global warming, or whatever random excuse people come up with affected the Superbowl's ratings (which sets new highs every year) like it affected the NBA finals ratings after Jordan's retirement(s)?

Exactly. :oldlol: @ people trying to downplay just how huge Jordan was. The phenomenon was like nothing seen before or since, and not Shaq, Kobe whoever could come close to duplicating it. Jordan was that much of an icon.

And Rodman and Kukoc? They weren't even on the first 3-peat team. Rodman got his shine because he played with Jordan. If he did those same antics on the Raptors, no one would've cared anywhere near as much.

[StarJordan]

^In 1993 NBA Finals for the first time beat the world series with a 17.9 average rating . That was chicago-phoenix, granted charles barkley and phoenix suns in those days had a big following too, but everytime chicago reached the finals in those days, tv execs were jumping up and down because chicago bulls were just a national team.

I feel the bulls team with jordan-pippen-grant-paxon-cartwright and phil jackson was bigger and more popular than any team ever.

Also NBC sports did a greater job of producing the nba finals than abc for sure.

[CLTHornets4eva]

^In 1993 NBA Finals for the first time beat the world series with a 17.9 average rating . That was chicago-phoenix, granted charles barkley and phoenix suns in those days had a big following too, but everytime chicago reached the finals in those days, tv execs were jumping up and down because chicago bulls were just a national team.

I feel the bulls team with jordan-pippen-grant-paxon-cartwright and phil jackson was bigger and more popular than any team ever.

Also NBC sports did a greater job of producing the nba finals than abc for sure.

NBC was awesome. The Intro song was epic.

[RedBlackAttack]

Nah son.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Super-Bowl-Through-2010-500x392.png

Why hasn't more channels, the internet, global warming, or whatever random excuse people come up with affected the Superbowl's ratings (which sets new highs every year) like it affected the NBA finals ratings after Jordan's retirement(s)?
:oldlol:

So true. In my office, I was one of the few people that gave two sh!ts about the NBA this year. Me and one other guy that I work with were huge NBA fans. Outside of that, more people were into what was happening in baseball.

In prime Jordan's era? Seemingly everyone was watching. It was a foregone conclusion.

Kids just don't understand.

[jstern]

About watching the games online, why would anyone do that when it's on national TV?

Even so, the way TV rating are collected, it would still count whether someone saw it online or on ABC. And that will be the case until they start building TVs that send information about what a person is watching.

Bottom line, the rating were great this year and the NBA is popular. The reason why they were higher during Jordan's time is simply Jordan. The years he retired the rating for the NBA finals went down, and when he came back they went up again. So there's the obvious answer, Jordan was very popular.

Edit: Also are there really more cable channels now than there were back in the 90s? I don't find that to be the case. It's like the same old channels, perhaps some new channels like the Oprah channel that I think used to be the Oxygen channel, so not a really new channel. And other new channels like the Fast Food Network, channels that won't affect the NBA ratings one bit.

[RedBlackAttack]

About watching the games online, why would anyone do that when it's on national TV?

Even so, the way TV rating are collected, it would still count whether someone saw it online or on ABC. And that will be the case until they start building TVs that send information about what a person is watching.

Bottom line, the rating were great this year and the NBA is popular. The reason why they were higher during Jordan's time is simply Jordan. The years he retired the rating for the NBA finals went down, and when he came back they went up again. So there's the obvious answer, Jordan was very popular.
People loved watching Jordan play. Hell, he made it his personal mission to destroy my franchise and I still couldn't help but to enjoy watching him play the game. It was beautiful.

No one since has approached it.

[Heilige]

:oldlol:

So true. In my office, I was one of the few people that gave two sh!ts about the NBA this year. Me and one other guy that I work with were huge NBA fans. Outside of that, more people were into what was happening in baseball.

In prime Jordan's era? Seemingly everyone was watching. It was a foregone conclusion.

Kids just don't understand.


Why aren't most people interested in the NBA now?

Also, in general why isn't the NBA as popular as the NFL? Would you say the reason is racial?

[DuMa]

The rise of Michael Jordan in the 80s to the top of the mountain in 91 and everyone trying to take turns to knock the king of the basketball world after that was ratings bonanza.

[Nevaeh]

Why aren't most people interested in the NBA now?

Also, in general why isn't the NBA as popular as the NFL? Would you say the reason is racial?

There's still a lot of Black NFL Players, so a big fat "nope" to this question. The NBA shot themselves in the foot by taking players straight out of High school, and basically letting the players dictate what the League would be, and not the other way around like it always was.

The early 2000's "Thug-Weed Head" image, with players doing what the f@ck they wanna do, simply rubbed people the wrong way, both Black and White. Don't nobody wanna see no mumblin' ass, ignorant ass, can't even pronounce words right N!gga after a game giving a press conference, especially when his whole vibe is negative.

Stern realized his f@ck up of letting things go too far, which culminated in the "Palace Brawl" of 05, and made SURE to not let that sh!t happen again. Now ratings are slowly making their return to somewhat decent levels, thanks to players who, for the most part, got their heads on straight.

[Da_Realist]

People loved watching Jordan play. Hell, he made it his personal mission to destroy my franchise and I still couldn't help but to enjoy watching him play the game. It was beautiful.

No one since has approached it.

Jordan was an artist on the floor and people loved to see him go to work. If he played in his prime now, everyone would put down what they were doing and watch.

The two guys I think are above all others in terms of artistry were Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson**. On any given night, you may see the greatest play you've ever seen in your life. You HAD to watch or you felt like you would miss something.

**The ratings for the Showtime Lakers would have been much greater had they played 10 years later.

[3243]

The early 2000's "Thug-Weed Head" image, with players doing what the f@ck they wanna do, simply rubbed people the wrong way, both Black and White.


Sounds not too different from the "One-On-One Streetballer/Coke-Head" image that was prevalent in the late 1970s-early '80s NBA.

[dak121]

Why aren't most people interested in the NBA now?

Also, in general why isn't the NBA as popular as the NFL? Would you say the reason is racial?

Why do people do this with basketball but not with baseball? Baseball ratings are way down from when McGwire/Sosa/Bonds were playing.

No league can compare to the NFL right now. Basketball is in pretty good shape as the #2 sport. I can remember the days when playoff games were delayed until midnight.

It's like people always try to find the negatives when it involves the NBA instead of talking about the fact that its actually in as good a shape as its been since Jordan left.

[Da_Realist]

Jordan was an artist on the floor and people loved to see him go to work. If he played in his prime now, everyone would put down what they were doing and watch.

The two guys I think are above all others in terms of artistry were Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson**. On any given night, you may see the greatest play you've ever seen in your life. You HAD to watch or you felt like you would miss something.

**The ratings for the Showtime Lakers would have been much greater had they played 10 years later.

Another thing about MJ... He was like a fine cigar whose taste changes over the course of the smoke. He started off as an exciting slasher then morphed into having one of the great mid-range games then changed into one of the great perimeter post players all while doing everything else at elite or near elite levels. In terms of artistry, he kept our attention throughout his run in Chicago.

[RaininTwos]

People are so idiotic, completely giving Jordan credit for the NBA's popularity like he wasn't following up on the NBA's explosion created by Magic and Larry.:facepalm

[3243]

1. Jordan himself
2. The basketball was better--better overall fundamentals (at least during the first half of the '90s), a lot more physicality, the league didn't have ESPN-guided panic attacks every time a fight broke out, more and fiercer rivalries, a bumper-crop of talented, skilled, promotable stars on just about every team as opposed to a few superstar conglomerations in Miami, New York, Boston, Oklahoma City, and both Los Angeles teams and not much for the casual fan to take notice of elsewhere.

[RaininTwos]

Nah son.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Super-Bowl-Through-2010-500x392.png

Why hasn't more channels, the internet, global warming, or whatever random excuse people come up with affected the Superbowl's ratings (which sets new highs every year) like it affected the NBA finals ratings after Jordan's retirement(s)?

Because it's the fvcking Super Bowl, you cannot be serious here. :facepalm

Super Sunday is basically a holiday in the States, even people who hate sports show up to watch and attend super bowl parties. It's no longer just a game, it's an event.

[3243]

People are so idiotic, completely giving Jordan credit for the NBA's popularity like he wasn't following up on the NBA's explosion created by Magic and Larry.:facepalm

Good point. And don't forget Dr. J. who at least kept the NBA on life support until the Magic/Bird arrival.

[TropicalDrini]

If you know anything about the history of the NBA..you would know that those huge ratings for the NBA started in the 80s, with Bird and Magic..

Game 6 of the 1998 finals had a 22.3 rating..but the game 7 of 1988 had a 21.2 rating.

NBA was already huge..Jordan just made it bigger.
I think people just loved stars back then..way more than they do now..people had their own opinions..the internet has crippled everything when it comes to people being objective watching the game.

NFL is and will always be bigger than other sports..its shorter, more intense..more teams contending every year. Its part of the American culture..just like Baseball was before all the steroids thing destroyed it.

NBA is coming back though..we just live in a different age right now tho.

[jlip]

Nah son.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Super-Bowl-Through-2010-500x392.png

Why hasn't more channels, the internet, global warming, or whatever random excuse people come up with affected the Superbowl's ratings (which sets new highs every year) like it affected the NBA finals ratings after Jordan's retirement(s)?


Because it's the fvcking Super Bowl, you cannot be serious here. :facepalm

Super Sunday is basically a holiday in the States, even people who hate sports show up to watch and attend super bowl parties. It's no longer just a game, it's an event.

Yeah. The Super Bowl was a bad example. That's a once a year event that is, as you indicated, actually bigger than the game itself. Also, one of the reasons football remains so popular is because most teams play only once a week. Your favorite team doesn't play 3-4 times a week as with b-ball. Considering the fact that a NFL team's schedule is only 16 games and an NBA team's schedule is 82, there are literally 5 times as many opportunities to see your favorite NBA team as there are to see your favorite NFL team. The rarity of something always contributes to its value.

[DonDadda59]

Because it's the fvcking Super Bowl, you cannot be serious here. :facepalm

Super Sunday is basically a holiday in the States, even people who hate sports show up to watch and attend super bowl parties. It's no longer just a game, it's an event.

And? :oldlol:

Why is the NFL not affected by the internet, more channels, more entertainment options, manbearpig, etc?

Is it just the NBA being affected by these miscellaneous factors while the NFL is immune?

[RaininTwos]

And? :oldlol:

Why is the NFL not affected by the internet, more channels, more entertainment options, manbearpig, etc?

Is it just the NBA being affected by these miscellaneous factors while the NFL is immune?
:sleeping

[StarJordan]

Game 6 of the 1998 finals had a 22.3 rating..but the game 7 of 1988 had a 21.2 rating.

True but can't compare game 6 to a game 7, what was game 6 of 1988 finals?....Had the 98 or the 93 finals extended to a final game 7, ratings would have approached 30 imo....nba ratings in 80s were good but cable/satellite really took off in the 90s which makes the bulls/jordan driven ratings rise after the 80s all the more remarkable....just about every sport went down in tv ratings post 80s but nba finals rose to record numbers when bulls started entering the nba finals.

[StarJordan]

Also, one of the reasons football remains so popular is because most teams play only once a week. Your favorite team doesn't play 3-4 times a week as with b-ball.

football is bigger but not that much bigger as superbowl ratings would indicate...football is once a week not 4 times a week and nfl playoffs are not a series based...elimination is single game based like ncaa...overall viewership for a nba finals over a 7 game stretch is going to be pretty high

[supe12sta12z]

How do you expect casual fans to connect to the NBA and it's teams when 99% of it's games are shown on cable networks. Games broadcast over the air on local networks are far and few in between.

Most of the playoffs are on cable networks until the Finals. Not exactly easy to connect to these teams.

The NFL broadcast EVERY playoff game on local networks. This makes it easy for people to follow in the postseason.

[Cali Syndicate]

People are so idiotic, completely giving Jordan credit for the NBA's popularity like he wasn't following up on the NBA's explosion created by Magic and Larry.:facepalm

It's common knowledge that Magic's and Bird's rivalry saved the league while Jordan took the league's popularity to the next level.

Both the 80's and 90's had "explosions" but the one in the 90's was the reason why the NBA became as popular as it did. And while comparisons of current players to legends are common place, you never really hear a player being deemed the next Bird, Magic, Wilt or whoever. There is only one player the league keeps looking to replace and that's Jordan. And for very good reason too.

The NBA is a business and wants to duplicate the impact Jordan had on the league. IMO it will never happen though. Two reasons.

First, the NBA had a lot of room for growth in the 80's and into the 90's. In the 90's, it attained that potential growth and hit a peak both nationally and internationally. All today's league can really hope for is to reattain that popularity and sustain it if they haven't already.

Second, I feel people lost interest in the league because it has become more about entertainment value rather than competition. Don't get me wrong because I still think the game is still competitive but it has lost its edge. Its become style over substance. Also with all the value players have nowadays, the league tries really hard to protect it's assets. And that takes away from truly enjoying the game. As a spectator, it's important to me to feel it was a fair game, as to comfortably say the better team won. Refs seem to dictate the outcome of game more so than ever these days and that will hurt any sport.

[Nevaeh]

It's common knowledge that Magic's and Bird's rivalry saved the league while Jordan took the league's popularity to the next level.

Both the 80's and 90's had "explosions" but the one in the 90's was the reason why the NBA became as popular as it did. And while comparisons of current players to legends are common place, you never really hear a player being deemed the next Bird, Magic, Wilt or whoever. There is only one player the league keeps looking to replace and that's Jordan. And for very good reason too.

The NBA is a business and wants to duplicate the impact Jordan had on the league. IMO it will never happen though. Two reasons.

First, the NBA had a lot of room for growth in the 80's and into the 90's. In the 90's, it attained that potential growth and hit a peak both nationally and internationally. All today's league can really hope for is to reattain that popularity and sustain it if they haven't already.

Second, I feel people lost interest in the league because it has become more about entertainment value rather than competition. Don't get me wrong because I still think the game is still competitive but it has lost its edge. Its become style over substance. Also with all the value players have nowadays, the league tries really hard to protect it's assets. And that takes away from truly enjoying the game. As a spectator, it's important to me to feel it was a fair game, as to comfortably say the better team won. Refs seem to dictate the outcome of game more so than ever these days and that will hurt any sport.

This is a great point that you made, and one that seems to get lost on the younger generation when it comes to Jordan. Back in the day, Jordan would get slapped, leveled by screens, undercut while in the air, and taken down on dunk attempts. Not every play of course, but it did happen, and one of the BIGGEST reasons he became a low post "back to the basket" type of player. Contrary to popular opinion, he wasn't some coddled "Cash Cow" who wasn't allowed to be touched.

Guys were expected to "earn" those millions of dollars back then, through blood, sweat and tears. And the refs would let the players, for the most part, dictate the game, which made it more exciting, without constant breaks in the action. But like you said, with it being a "business" with corporate sponsorship all over the place, it was only a matter of time before the League started to suck.

The League does have its moments, but it's just not the same.

[Cali Syndicate]

This is a great point that you made, and one that seems to get lost on the younger generation when it comes to Jordan. Back in the day, Jordan would get slapped, leveled by screens, undercut while in the air, and taken down on dunk attempts. Not every play of course, but it did happen, and one of the BIGGEST reasons he became a low post "back to the basket" type of player. Contrary to popular opinion, he wasn't some coddled "Cash Cow" who wasn't allowed to be touched.

Guys were expected to "earn" those millions of dollars back then, through blood, sweat and tears. And the refs would let the players, for the most part, dictate the game, which made it more exciting, without constant breaks in the action. But like you said, with it being a "business" with corporate sponsorship all over the place, it was only a matter of time before the League started to suck.

The League does have its moments, but it's just not the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37ZjiJb9Efk

[RedBlackAttack]

Why aren't most people interested in the NBA now?
The biggest thing is that Michael Jordan isn't playing. It is hard to even quantify his popularity and celebrity in terms that a young fan today could understand. He was must-see TV every time he took the floor.

The other thing is that the late-70s and early-80s set the scene for the popularity of basketball in the early-to-mid 90s.

Basketball was not a popular sport in the mid-70s.

Bird and Magic coming along really got people to start paying more attention to the NBA. After six years of those guys dominating the NBA headlines, this young kid with the Bulls starting wowing people.

So, as more people migrated over to the NBA to watch Bird/Magic, they became more aware of other things happening in the league, most notably this phenomenal young player.

So, the nation basically watched Jordan grow from a uniquely talented one-man show to the greatest player to ever lace them up playing on a team that was virtually unbeatable.

It was a perfect storm of factors that can't be duplicated... Although the league has tried several times since.

It was the right mix of players at the perfect time and then the rise of the GOAT while the entire nation was interested in basketball for the first time in a long time.


Also, in general why isn't the NBA as popular as the NFL? Would you say the reason is racial?

Meh, I think the hip-hop culture, especially in the early-00s, turned some people off. I really don't think that is a huge factor though.

Even in Jordan's prime, the NBA took a backseat to the NFL. America just loves football.

[RedBlackAttack]

Because it's the fvcking Super Bowl, you cannot be serious here. :facepalm

Super Sunday is basically a holiday in the States, even people who hate sports show up to watch and attend super bowl parties. It's no longer just a game, it's an event.
It's not just the Super Bowl.

Check out ratings for the AFC/NFC Championships.... the Divisional round... Hell, a regular season game.

Football blows everything else out of the water and there is no argument otherwise.

To put things in perspective for you... Game 5 of the Finals, which everyone knew could be the final game of the season... It had, what? A rating of a little over 12?

They said that the game was seen by 18.5 million viewers. That was the close-out game and everyone knew that it could be the final game.


The NFC Wildcard Playoff Game this past NFL season was seen by 39.3 million viewers... Over double Game 5. And, that was for a first round playoff game.

http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/media_entertainment/nielsens-tops-of-2011-television


To drive the point home even more, a Redskins/Cowboys regular season game on Monday Night Football last year... REGULAR SEASON... had 17.1 million viewers... Which was higher than the average rating for the five Heat/Thunder games in the Finals.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/01/05/nfl-2011-tv-recap-record-37-shows-earn-more-than-20-million-viewers/115523/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/sports/basketball/nba-finals-game-5-receives-high-tv-ratings.html


In other words... Don't f#ck with the NFL.

[Da_Realist]

It's common knowledge that Magic's and Bird's rivalry saved the league while Jordan took the league's popularity to the next level.

Both the 80's and 90's had "explosions" but the one in the 90's was the reason why the NBA became as popular as it did. And while comparisons of current players to legends are common place, you never really hear a player being deemed the next Bird, Magic, Wilt or whoever. There is only one player the league keeps looking to replace and that's Jordan. And for very good reason too.

The NBA is a business and wants to duplicate the impact Jordan had on the league. IMO it will never happen though. Two reasons.

First, the NBA had a lot of room for growth in the 80's and into the 90's. In the 90's, it attained that potential growth and hit a peak both nationally and internationally. All today's league can really hope for is to reattain that popularity and sustain it if they haven't already.

Second, I feel people lost interest in the league because it has become more about entertainment value rather than competition. Don't get me wrong because I still think the game is still competitive but it has lost its edge. Its become style over substance. Also with all the value players have nowadays, the league tries really hard to protect it's assets. And that takes away from truly enjoying the game. As a spectator, it's important to me to feel it was a fair game, as to comfortably say the better team won. Refs seem to dictate the outcome of game more so than ever these days and that will hurt any sport.

The fact that it's become such a perimeter-oriented league makes it less interesting to watch, imo. Too much dribbling while waiting on a play to develop. Too much standing around when they don't have the ball. And big men have been taken out of the paint which has created a league where nearly everyone is a perimeter player. There's like 2 or 3 quality big men in the league. There isn't that balance between perimeter and post play anymore. It's like a glorified, super talented version of 4 on 4 at the local rec.

Even Phil Jackson admitted on HBO Real Sports that he doesn't like watching the NBA anymore. Too much screen/roll, too much dribbling and not enough creativity.

[bdreason]

Because the NBA was better in the late 80's and early 90's.

[Pinkhearts]

so Two and a Half Men in its prime with Charlie had higher ratings than Game 5 week after week...

[RaininTwos]

It's not just the Super Bowl.

Check out ratings for the AFC/NFC Championships.... the Divisional round... Hell, a regular season game.

Football blows everything else out of the water and there is no argument otherwise.

To put things in perspective for you... Game 5 of the Finals, which everyone knew could be the final game of the season... It had, what? A rating of a little over 12?

They said that the game was seen by 18.5 million viewers. That was the close-out game and everyone knew that it could be the final game.


The NFC Wildcard Playoff Game this past NFL season was seen by 39.3 million viewers... Over double Game 5. And, that was for a first round playoff game.

http://blog.nielsen.com/nielsenwire/media_entertainment/nielsens-tops-of-2011-television


To drive the point home even more, a Redskins/Cowboys regular season game on Monday Night Football last year... REGULAR SEASON... had 17.1 million viewers... Which was higher than the average rating for the five Heat/Thunder games in the Finals.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2012/01/05/nfl-2011-tv-recap-record-37-shows-earn-more-than-20-million-viewers/115523/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/sports/basketball/nba-finals-game-5-receives-high-tv-ratings.html


In other words... Don't f#ck with the NFL.

Good info, the NFL is King in North America. We all know that I was just shocked at how absurd the line of questioning Don Dadda kept presenting.

[JMT]

Even the extremely casual fan (my grandmother) knew who Jordan was, marveled at his athleticism and found him likable. Very similar to Tiger Woods pre-hydrant.

Today many casual fans tune in to root against James. The draw of a negative isn't as strong as that of a positive.

As others noted, more fans watch online. Also there are more channels/networks and entertainment options.

Also don't diminish the negative impact of supposed "fans" who cry incessantly about games and draft lotteries being fixed. If you don't really have a strong rooting interest and are thinking about checking it out, that's enough to dissuade you.

[jt21]

Part of the reason I don't find it as enjoyable is that NBA is no longer shown on NBC. NBA on NBC was amazing with the theme song and the great match ups every weekend. ESPN/ABC and TNT are ok but don't come close to NBC's presentation during the late 90's IMO (much of that is the theme song).

I can't remember off the top of my head what it was like 10-15 years ago, but I'd also say that currently it seems that players are more concerned with getting to the foul line and manipulating the referees than creating good shots.

Using the pump fake as an example, I don't remember what it was like in the Jordan era, but now the pump fake is used exclusively to get the defender into the air and flop into him for a foul, rather than using it to drive and get a better shot.

It's much less enjoyable to watch when the game is interrupted by a foul call every single possession. Some of that has to do with the rule changes(i.e. handcheck), but a lot of it is just an overall player mentality. The vast majority of "star" players spend almost every single transition period complaining to the refs instead of just running back on D.

[StarJordan]

- The NBA was in trouble in the late 70s for the same reasons it was in trouble in the mid2000s...league was seen as too black and basically had a coke-snorting image
- Coming of larry Bird (being a white superstar) in early 80s was a turnaround point in ratings for the casual basketball fans, ie mostly white fans of the time. His rivarly with magic johnson on the other side of the country created the initial boost, and then people stayed because 80s basketball was pretty good. They became NBA fans.
- By 1984 though, Jordan had entered the league and and he created a different kind of fan following than lakers vs celtics. Jordan had a spectacular game and a superstar personality that would cross over.....magic had a spectacular game but he wasn't a smooth talker or witty like jordan.....bird was smart but didn't have the spectacular game like jordan....jordan had the entire package on and off the court...and persona wise, outside of him, only Charles Barkley has. With some help from Nike, Jordan by mid-late 80s was the top star of the league, getting the most votes at the all star game etc and air jordan brand was on parallel with rest of nba. Also with jordan came barkley and stockton and mullin and nba had a pretty solid transition into the next decade
-But the league's and basketball's popularity really peaked during 1991-1993 imo, especially during the dream team phase. Both nationally and internationally. Ratings for nba finals peaked in 1998. But interms of basketball on the playgrounds and overall hype, it was probably around '92-93...basketball became the cool sport to play in america....and michael jordan had a lot to do with that. Also to a lesser extent pippen, barkley, ewing, robinson, mullin, regiie miller and those type of stars of that era. Many of those guys are on tnt today interstingly and still popular.

That said, I wanna add that lebron and wade and bosh and durant have similar appeal as the non-jordan stars of that prime era. Dwade, lebron these guys are popular for sure. And their basketball is also not bad either, so its not like you're going to get nba finals with ratings <10 anytime soon with this crew in the finals. Like i said, when a finals with oklahoma city can do well, then the nba is doing pretty good.

[DonDadda59]

Good info, the NFL is King in North America. We all know that I was just shocked at how absurd the line of questioning Don Dadda kept presenting.

So you agree with RBA but my reasoning, which is the same as RBA's, is 'absurd'? Does not compute :confusedshrug:

People are really reaching for excuses here. Anyone who was around for the Jordan phenomena knows why the interest just isn't there nowadays like it used to be. ESPN, ABC, etc knows the reason as well which is why they're still looking for the 'next Jordan' (looks like they've given up on Kobe and now Lebron gets all the comparisons).

But all that aside... I was just hoping that all the 'internet, cable, more entertainment' caused the NBA's decline would be able to explain why the NFL keeps growing in popularity and viewership while facing the same obstacles. Also would be nice for someone to explain why the NBA experienced massive drop offs in viewership that coincided with Jordan's retirements in '94 and '99.

[Heilige]

How do you expect casual fans to connect to the NBA and it's teams when 99% of it's games are shown on cable networks. Games broadcast over the air on local networks are far and few in between.

Most of the playoffs are on cable networks until the Finals. Not exactly easy to connect to these teams.

The NFL broadcast EVERY playoff game on local networks. This makes it easy for people to follow in the postseason.


Don't most people have cable?

[RaininTwos]

So you agree with RBA but my reasoning, which is the same as RBA's, is 'absurd'? Does not compute :confusedshrug:

People are really reaching for excuses here. Anyone who was around for the Jordan phenomena knows why the interest just isn't there nowadays like it used to be. ESPN, ABC, etc knows the reason as well which is why they're still looking for the 'next Jordan' (looks like they've given up on Kobe and now Lebron gets all the comparisons).

But all that aside... I was just hoping that all the 'internet, cable, more entertainment' caused the NBA's decline would be able to explain why the NFL keeps growing in popularity and viewership while facing the same obstacles. Also would be nice for someone to explain why the NBA experienced massive drop offs in viewership that coincided with Jordan's retirements in '94 and '99.

You question was asinine. That's like in a topic about the 2008 recession, people talk about how sales went down and you keep asking "How come the Iphone still sold like crazy?" or in a thread about declining record sales, you ask "How come Adele's '21' is still selling millions of copies?".

That's just being stupid, there is no comparison. You know it, I know it, we all do.

Why are wasting time asking? The NBA and NFL are not the same, so why would you expect challenges to NBA ratings to apply to NFL ratings?

The NFL is obviously the exception.

All RBA did was provide info just to show how much of an exception the NFL is.

[Soundwave]

Jordan was far more popular with casual fans/non-fans, hence the Bulls would get a large ratings boost.

LeBron is good but he's really not even close in popularity with fringe/non-fans.

Jordan was a global icon ala a Michael Jackson/Princess Diana/etc. for his time.

Things were just different back then.

[senelcoolidge]

Yeah, it was because of Jordan. But than again there was better star power, league was just better, better competition..etc.

[3ba11]

Today's spacing produces robotic scoring styles, since everyone is taking threes, layups or alley-oops, and the objective is open looks... Otoh, contested shots in traffic were unavoidable in previous eras due to the lesser spacing, so each player was forced to develop their own individually-unique way of making contested shots... The unique scoring styles of Magic, Bird, MJ, Kareem, and all 80's players contrasts with the robotic styles of today's open-shot-makers, aka 3-point and layup spammers - it's mostly open shots due to the hands-off, spaced-out beginner format and the resulting robotic drive-and-kick approach.

So the 90's was far better to watch than today due to the greater individuality and caliber of shot-making and style of play, which was all inspired by the lesser-spaced and more physical format (advanced format)... Contested shots are simply more fun to watch, along with the individually-unique styles and ability required to make them... Furthermore, since players didn't rely on spamming threes via PNR drive-and-kick and 2-man basketball, they were elite at running off screens and playing various 5-man basketball styles.. Historically, 5-man basketball has a tremendous record against 2-man basketball and ball-domination.

Ultimately, only a nascent NBA fan thinks that 3-point jacking demonstrates superior basketball ability than the hoops instinct, skill and individuality required to operate in traffic and with physicality.. The 90's was actually the best decade ever because it used the 3-point line a fair amount (10-25 attempts per game, depending on the year), and therefore had the best-ever mix of at-rim, paint, mid-range, and 3-pointers... The best-ever ratings proved the point - everyone was watching on mainstream TV in more groups of people.

[3ba11]

It's because the rules allowed toughness, so basketball was cool back then and people watched in groups on mainstream TV channels that many people got .. Otoh, today's soft, easy-scoring 3-point contests attracted nerds or bored rich people, so the game isn't considered cool and people mostly watch alone on phones or laptops

[Meticode]

The answer is Jordan. If you look at the TV ratings year by year the biggest hits they take is right when Jordan retires. The NBA Finals dipped during his first retirement, then popped back up when he came back, then they fell off a cliff after his second retirement and never recovered. Bulls vs Jazz series in 1998 has the highest TV rated/viewership Games 1, 2, 5 and 6 in NBA history as well as the highest averaged rating/viewership for the whole series in NBA history. 35+ million viewers in Game 6. Since COVID happened the Finals viewership hovers around 10-12 million. The Pacers vs Thunder series will be the second or third worse rated Finals in NBA history competing with 2021. 2020 was the worse.

The biggest peak after Jordan left was the Warriors/Cavs series consistently. The Curry vs LeBron narrative drove that era of the Finals. There were a couple Lakers vs Sixer and Lakers vs Piston games sprinkled in that were rated roughly around the same.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Finals_television_ratings

In short the NBA has slowly been dying in terms of ratings and viewership since the Jordan era gradually getting worse and worse minus the slight bump during the Cavs/Warriors days. The United States roughly has 75 million more people today in 2025 than it did in 1998, yet NBA viewership went from a peak of 35-36 millions in 1998 and this season it's currently it's less than 1/3 of that with rougly 9 million viewers. The NBA makes more money today because of lucrative media deals, global expansion and sponsorship and licensing.

[John8204]

LOL...no it's not Jordan

DVR's and Cord Cutting has killed "ratings" as we know it because you can skip commercials and buzz right through the game. The same percentage drop happened with Baseball

[SouBeachTalents]

It's amazing how often we have this conversation like the media landscape isn't wildly different from even 15 years ago, let alone the fvcking 90's lol.

Attributing this solely to Jordan and not streaming/the internet is wild :lol

[Meticode]

LOL...no it's not Jordan

DVR's and Cord Cutting has killed "ratings" as we know it because you can skip commercials and buzz right through the game. The same percentage drop happened with Baseball

It's amazing how often we have this conversation like the media landscape isn't wildly different from even 15 years ago, let alone the fvcking 90's lol.

Attributing this solely to Jordan and not streaming/the internet is wild :lol

Jordan retiring isn't the only reason for the NBA lost in viewership, but it is the main culprit and where it all started. Cord cutting and illegal streams were contributing factors that killed it further years later. The two biggest dips in NBA viewership/ratings were the years following Jordan's first and second retirement. The second retirement they lost over 10 million viewers. The biggest drop in any season. In the 80s and 90s until 1998 the viewership for the Finals was consistently between 20-25 million people minus the Houston Rocket Finals. It's not been over 20 million since 1998.

The MLB didn't see any dips until around 2005. MLB didn't quite follow the same trajectory.

[game3524]

Mike brought in viewers who would normally not watch NBA basketball and they left after he retired and never came back. Not to say we haven't seen highly rated series (The Cavs/Warriors series, Sixers/Lakers etc. all did well), but yeah no one really drew an audience like Mike.

[Meticode]

Mike brought in viewers who would normally not watch NBA basketball and they left after he retired and never came back. Not to say we haven't seen highly rated series (The Cavs/Warriors series, Sixers/Lakers etc. all did well), but yeah no one really drew an audience like Mike.

Sad to think the Cavs/Warriors were highly rated, but only reached half or one-third of what 1998 did.

[game3524]

Sad to think the Cavs/Warriors were highly rated, but only reached half or one-third of what 1998 did.

People ask what the peak year of the NBA is and it is 1998 without any question. Interest has never been as high as it was that year and it is mainly because of Jordan.

[Hey Yo]

Mike brought in viewers who would normally not watch NBA basketball and they left after he retired and never came back. Not to say we haven't seen highly rated series (The Cavs/Warriors series, Sixers/Lakers etc. all did well), but yeah no one really drew an audience like Mike.

So the numbers should show viewership spiked back up significantly for the 2ys he played for Washington? Went back down after the 3rd retirement?

[Meticode]

So the numbers should show viewership spiked back up significantly for the 2ys he played for Washington? Went back down after the 3rd retirement?

No one cared because the Wizards weren't competing in the playoffs for those two years. He was a shadow of his former self. Still a great player, but nothing like 1998 and prior. No one wanted to watch the f*cking Wizards with a old Jordan that could only show glimpses of what he used to be.

[Hey Yo]

No one cared because the Wizards weren't competing in the playoffs for those two years. He was a shadow of his former self. Still a great player, but nothing like 1998 and prior. No one wanted to watch the f*cking Wizards with a old Jordan that could only show glimpses of what he used to be.
Then it was a successful winning team who the non fans tuned into see, not just Jordan. That makes much more sense.

[Meticode]

Then it was a successful winning team who the non fans tuned into see, not just Jordan. That makes much more sense.

No, it was casual fans wanting to watch peak Jordan win and compete. They didn't want to see old Jordan lose on arguably one of the worse franchises in the NBA still today.

[Gudo]

Wow they would say anything but credit Jordan for something so obvious. Even the sneakers were not about Jordan, the designs just "so-happened" to be timeless.

[Baller234]

It's amazing how often we have this conversation like the media landscape isn't wildly different from even 15 years ago, let alone the fvcking 90's lol.

Attributing this solely to Jordan and not streaming/the internet is wild :lol

Hard disagree here.

There were always other options. In the 90's it wasn't much different because you saw the explosion of cable TV. We went from having 6 channels to 100 which meant more competition for the NBA. That period also saw the explosion of video games. None of it mattered though because that was also the biggest growth period for the league.

Streaming doesn't strike me as something that diverts attention away from sports. Sports are their own thing with their own audience. A real sports fan is never going to stream a movie over a big game if given the option. I highly doubt that less people would have watched Michael Jordan in the finals if only they had the option to stream every episode of The Office.

Sports are a shared experience and MJ was must-see TV.

[GOBB]

Why is it that right now the NBA finals TV rating is not even close to the Jordan era? Isn't the NBA getting more popular and well know, so should there be more viewers?

Becuase people weren’t sitting on message boards arguing about the game instead of just watching it with family/friends etc

[game3524]

Speaking of MJ's return in 2001-02, the ratings actually did go up from the previous season. Granted, I wouldn't say that was entirely do to MJ returning. Kobe, AI, T-Mac, Vince etc. basically the stars of the 2000s all broke out and became real stars and that helped generate interest in the league.

[Full Court]

In the Jordan era, people didn't have to watch players arguing with the refs on every single freaking possession.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ffadeawayworld.net%2F.image%2Ft_sh are%2FMTk1NTAxMDgwMDkwNTE5MTA5%2Fusatsi_19852809-1.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=5f674ca371bc573739681d4f7113c43de52bab642b4cb1 9f0114768eaa17f0f7

[sdot_thadon]

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2BFAW16/michael-jordan-complains-to-the-refereree-while-competing-against-the-utah-jazz-during-the-1997-nba-finals-2BFAW16.jpg
Yeah Mj would never...

[Full Court]

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/2BFAW16/michael-jordan-complains-to-the-refereree-while-competing-against-the-utah-jazz-during-the-1997-nba-finals-2BFAW16.jpg
Yeah Mj would never...

Lol wow, you found an instance of it - compared to doing it every single play. Nice try. :lol


https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/d5Py9NQMl.tDOhoFD18_oA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI0MDA7aD0xNjIy/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2025-04/4a9f9c40-1dac-11f0-b57b-63dc887311d1

^Beta

[1987_Lakers]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/be/2b/3f/be2b3f12a0175b4894ae8cef6806ee1d.jpg

[Full Court]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/be/2b/3f/be2b3f12a0175b4894ae8cef6806ee1d.jpg

^Alpha.




https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/d5Py9NQMl.tDOhoFD18_oA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI0MDA7aD0xNjIy/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2025-04/4a9f9c40-1dac-11f0-b57b-63dc887311d1

^Beta. :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej7t2z1UcAA_Em0.jpg

[Full Court]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej7t2z1UcAA_Em0.jpg

^Alpha


https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/d5Py9NQMl.tDOhoFD18_oA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI0MDA7aD0xNjIy/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2025-04/4a9f9c40-1dac-11f0-b57b-63dc887311d1

^Beta.

[1987_Lakers]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ej7t2z1UcAA_Em0.jpg

Ref laughing at him on the bottom left. :oldlol:

[Full Court]

https://www.boundingintosports.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/Screen-Shot-2023-02-01-at-9.53.33-AM-1340x700.png

^Beta.

[sdot_thadon]

Lol wow, you found an instance of it - compared to doing it every single play. Nice try. :lol


https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/d5Py9NQMl.tDOhoFD18_oA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTI0MDA7aD0xNjIy/https://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2025-04/4a9f9c40-1dac-11f0-b57b-63dc887311d1

^Beta

You probably weren't even born yet when that Pic was snapped bud. What's amazing about this exchange is the fact that Mj was far and away thought to have preferential treatment by the officials and STILL complained to them that much. Meanwhile they've reffed Lebron more like Shaq and honestly has probably been shorted 1000+ fta as the most devastating perimeter player in the paint ever.

[Full Court]

You probably weren't even born yet when that Pic was snapped bud. What's amazing about this exchange is the fact that Mj was far and away thought to have preferential treatment by the officials and STILL complained to them that much. Meanwhile they've reffed Lebron more like Shaq and honestly has probably been shorted 1000+ fta as the most devastating perimeter player in the paint ever.

You sound like a beta.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're a big Lebron fan?


:roll:

[ArbitraryWater]

Mainly technology(internet/iphone) - there are a thousand more ways to watch/follow sports now. A million more other things to do as well.

The best example is the superior TV ratings from 99-04, yet I don't think anyone's going to argue the NBA is less popular today then it was then.

Summed it up.


Fewer options back then.

[rmt]

My humble take:

NBA's popularity really started with Magic vs Bird rivalry - glued to the TV for the few broadcast games - my mom was a Celtics fan and I a Laker fan. But MJ took its popularity to another level - it's hard to describe - like a WORLDWIDE phenomenon - like watching the moon landing or Thrilla in Manilla in little old Jamaica - the excitement/talk/buzz. I was not a MJ fan - did not like the cockiness/arrogance but he was FEARED when he stepped on court.

Back then, players battled dearly. Not like today with the load management, regular season almost counting for nothing, friend/friend with everyone. It seemed like they hated to lose and put pride/everything into winning. And of course, there was not the movement that there is today - teams were pretty stable (at least the stars).

[sdot_thadon]

You sound like a beta.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that you're a big Lebron fan?


:roll:

One thing I know for certain in my travels is the guys who care to speak on Alpha/beta dynamics are never the alpha in any situation. And actually, im a fan of both Mj and Lebron that knows Lebron isn't given a fair shake by a certain segment of fan. But none of that has anything ro do with me knowing more about Mj than you, keep up.

[ImKobe]

You probably weren't even born yet when that Pic was snapped bud. What's amazing about this exchange is the fact that Mj was far and away thought to have preferential treatment by the officials and STILL complained to them that much. Meanwhile they've reffed Lebron more like Shaq and honestly has probably been shorted 1000+ fta as the most devastating perimeter player in the paint ever.

Lebron has a higher Free Throw Rate for his career, and that's with him playing well past his prime years and barely getting to the line now as he doesn't attack the paint nearly as much.

If we just look at their prime years (I'll do age 24-29 seasons for this purpose, from when Jordan hit his peak to his 1st retirement), Lebron had a 44.9% Free Throw Rate vs. Jordan's 36.6%.

Free Throw Rate = Free Throws attempted per FG attempt.

And we can also look at the Personal Fouls number. Jordan averaged 2.6 fouls to Lebron's 1.8 for his career in the RS and 3 fouls to Lebron's 2.3 per game in the Playoffs.

[Full Court]

One thing I know for certain in my travels is the guys who care to speak on Alpha/beta dynamics are never the alpha in any situation. And actually, im a fan of both Mj and Lebron that knows Lebron isn't given a fair shake by a certain segment of fan. But none of that has anything ro do with me knowing more about Mj than you, keep up.

Yep. Spoken like a true beta.

[FKAri]

They're higher than they've ever been. By a huge margin. You can play around with terrestrial/cable/streaming numbers all you want but the bottom line revenue doesn't lie.

That does NOT necessarily mean the product is better today. Maybe it is better or maybe it's better at catering to the lowest common denominator or maybe it's more accessible. Personally, I think the casual sports fan is a dieing breed. It's going the way of late night talk shows and variey programs. People don't just sit around and watch whatever's on or channel surf. There's access to so much content now that people generally will go to "their thing" when they can instead of tolerate something passable. Just my opinion of how entertainment media is consumed now vs the 90s.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron has a higher Free Throw Rate for his career, and that's with him playing well past his prime years and barely getting to the line now as he doesn't attack the paint nearly as much.

If we just look at their prime years (I'll do age 24-29 seasons for this purpose, from when Jordan hit his peak to his 1st retirement), Lebron had a 44.9% Free Throw Rate vs. Jordan's 36.6%.

Free Throw Rate = Free Throws attempted per FG attempt.

And we can also look at the Personal Fouls number. Jordan averaged 2.6 fouls to Lebron's 1.8 for his career in the RS and 3 fouls to Lebron's 2.3 per game in the Playoffs.

Youre looking at numbers and im speaking from watching the games. Hes never gotten as many calls as hes earned, why do you think he started that terrible flopping shit in the 1st place? Jump shooters were spemding more time on the line than a guy pressuring the paint for entire games. If he was reffed the same as other stars he"d foul out opposing front lines kinda like Shaq did in the 90s- 2000s. No guy starting his offense from the 3 point line has ever put as much pressure on the paint as prime Lebron. The numbers won't ever reflect this idea.

[sdot_thadon]

Yep. Spoken like a true beta.

I said what I said. You couldn't handle the argument so you took a detour to fagville. Its ok buddy hang in there.

[ImKobe]

Youre looking at numbers and im speaking from watching the games. Hes never gotten as many calls as hes earned, why do you think he started that terrible flopping shit in the 1st place? Jump shooters were spemding more time on the line than a guy pressuring the paint for entire games. If he was reffed the same as other stars he"d foul out opposing front lines kinda like Shaq did in the 90s- 2000s. No guy starting his offense from the 3 point line has ever put as much pressure on the paint as prime Lebron. The numbers won't ever reflect this idea.

If Lebron was reffed fairly in his prime he'd foul out of games for stiff-arming the defender that's on his way to the basket. It's why he didn't get as many FTs as you think he might've deserved. Also take into account that defenders would often just not get in Lebron's way because they didn't want to end up on a poster or get called for the foul as it was impossible to contest his layup/dunk attempts or stop him from finishing if he had a step on them.


Lebron is #1 all-time in minutes played and just 132rd all-time in personal fouls. Kareem is #2 in minutes played and #1 in fouls. Imagine that. Jordan is 36th all-time in total minutes with 18000 less minutes than Lebron and still has more fouls committed for his career.

[sdot_thadon]

If Lebron was reffed fairly in his prime he'd foul out of games for stiff-arming the defender that's on his way to the basket. It's why he didn't get as many FTs as you think he might've deserved. Also take into account that defenders would often just not get in Lebron's way because they didn't want to end up on a poster or get called for the foul as it was impossible to contest his layup/dunk attempts or stop him from finishing if he had a step on them.


Lebron is #1 all-time in minutes played and just 132rd all-time in personal fouls. Kareem is #2 in minutes played and #1 in fouls. Imagine that. Jordan is 36th all-time in total minutes with 18000 less minutes than Lebron and still has more fouls committed for his career.

Hard disagree there. He definitely could have more offensive fouls in a similar way Shaq could. But it would still be far and away less than how often he was hit on even made baskets and not get the and 1. I get it, from your perspective Lebron isn't even what he is to more objective observers than me. I dont think you shouldn't get calls just because you're bigger or stronger, or even worse because you still made the bucket. Also gotta take into account hes been playing so long you guys are starting to forget what his prime years even looked like. He got hit alot more before the 3point revolution spread the floor. Half of his career occurred before the shooting started taking over.

[ImKobe]

Hard disagree there. He definitely could have more offensive fouls in a similar way Shaq could. But it would still be far and away less than how often he was hit on even made baskets and not get the and 1. I get it, from your perspective Lebron isn't even what he is to more objective observers than me. I dont think you shouldn't get calls just because you're bigger or stronger, or even worse because you still made the bucket. Also gotta take into account hes been playing so long you guys are starting to forget what his prime years even looked like. He got hit alot more before the 3point revolution spread the floor. Half of his career occurred before the shooting started taking over.

Well there's that as well. They allowed more physical play earlier in his career. It's similar to Shaq where it's not really fair to call the slightest contact on Lebron when he's overpowering his opponents due to his size & athletic advantage. In most situations it's just more fair to not call anything as there's contact on both sides, and usually that benefited him as it did Shaq as defenders bounced off them.

[Hey Yo]

I said what I said. You couldn't handle the argument so you took a detour to fagville. Its ok buddy hang in there.
:roll:
:roll:
:roll:

[sdot_thadon]

Well there's that as well. They allowed more physical play earlier in his career. It's similar to Shaq where it's not really fair to call the slightest contact on Lebron when he's overpowering his opponents due to his size & athletic advantage. In most situations it's just more fair to not call anything as there's contact on both sides, and usually that benefited him as it did Shaq as defenders bounced off them.

But thats the catch 22. Are defenders allowed to use more force and hit these guys harder than other players unchecked? And for the record Shaq still put whole teams in foul trouble despite being reffed differently, Lebron wasn't given the same respect in the paint. Hes getting legit hit on buckets out there and his detractors say hes whining. And you got retards saying he couldn't play in the 90s as physical as his playstyle had been.

[ImKobe]

But thats the catch 22. Are defenders allowed to use more force and hit these guys harder than other players unchecked? And for the record Shaq still put whole teams in foul trouble despite being reffed differently, Lebron wasn't given the same respect in the paint. Hes getting legit hit on buckets out there and his detractors say hes whining. And you got retards saying he couldn't play in the 90s as physical as his playstyle had been.

Well, fouling Chris Paul is different from fouling Lebron. You'd need to exert a bit more force to bother Lebron's shot. Lebron's so big he initiates contact and while sometimes it did go uncalled he also got a bunch of and-1s where he just ran over his opponent. It's a tough one to call from the refs' perspective as you can't just review every play, impossible to make the right call a 100% of the time.

[sdot_thadon]

Well, fouling Chris Paul is different from fouling Lebron. You'd need to exert a bit more force to bother Lebron's shot. Lebron's so big he initiates contact and while sometimes it did go uncalled he also got a bunch of and-1s where he just ran over his opponent. It's a tough one to call from the refs' perspective as you can't just review every play, impossible to make the right call a 100% of the time.

Right, and thats my point hes been hit harder than a Chris Paul or a KD and not get to the line as much as they did proportionately. Fta make big scoring games easier to achieve. Putting teams in the penalty have huge implications down the stretch of games. These things matter more than I think people want to say.

[Full Court]

I said what I said. You couldn't handle the argument so you took a detour to fagville. Its ok buddy hang in there.

Somebody got REALLY sensitive about the whole beta thing, which wasn't even originally directed toward him.

Definitely hit a sore spot. :lol

[sdot_thadon]

Somebody got REALLY sensitive about the whole beta thing, which wasn't even originally directed toward him.

Definitely hit a sore spot. :lol

Actually you quoted me and directed it at me and got what you got as a result. See you next thread dumb****.

[Full Court]

Actually you quoted me and directed it at me and got what you got as a result. See you next thread dumb****.

The beta thing clearly touched a nerve.

I'm guessing you're a big Lebron fan? Tell me if I'm right, and I'll tell you how I figured it out. :roll:

[ImKobe]

Right, and thats my point hes been hit harder than a Chris Paul or a KD and not get to the line as much as they did proportionately. Fta make big scoring games easier to achieve. Putting teams in the penalty have huge implications down the stretch of games. These things matter more than I think people want to say.

Yes, and he had a significantly higher FT rate than Jordan in his prime in comparison. Don't act like he didn't get the whistle. His prime athletic years he averaged 13 and 14 FTA in the Playoffs in '08 '09.. Almost as many FTA as the attempts he had inside the arc.

Like I said, you can't review every play. When he's going downhill and initiates the contact it can be hard to fell if he got hit on the arm or on the side of his face with the speed the play happens. Can't catch it every time. OTOH he got away with plenty of offensive fouls and traveling so that evens out.

[Axe]

Yes, and he had a significantly higher FT rate than Jordan in his prime in comparison. Don't act like he didn't get the whistle. His prime athletic years he averaged 13 and 14 FTA in the Playoffs in '08 '09.. Almost as many FTA as the attempts he had inside the arc.

Like I said, you can't review every play. When he's going downhill and initiates the contact it can be hard to fell if he got hit on the arm or on the side of his face with the speed the play happens. Can't catch it every time. OTOH he got away with plenty of offensive fouls and traveling so that evens out.
But if jordan got more of those numbers instead, you wouldn't point them out at all?


I said what I said. You couldn't handle the argument so you took a detour to fagville. Its ok buddy hang in there.
:oldlol: (https://i.ibb.co/wrNN1mx/IMG-20220626-013823.jpg)

[Full Court]

But if jordan got more of those numbers instead, you wouldn't point them out at all?


:oldlol: (https://i.ibb.co/wrNN1mx/IMG-20220626-013823.jpg)

Did you know that Lebron has BY FAR the most choke jobs of all time? In fact, Full Court has even documented no less than 45 of them just in the post season. :lol


Stinky idiot.