Magic Johnson: No one is close to Michael

[bwink23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6hh9gIXT5o

:pimp:

[Yung D-Will]

Lol clearly he forgot that he played alongside Kareem

[pauk]

He was talking about career accomplishments.... in that sense he is right... nobody is close to Michael....

But in terms of talent, productions, impact, domination Lebron is the closest thing we have to MJ...

[Da_Realist]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.

[bagelred]

Magic Johnson: No one is close to Michael

That's really sad. Jordan must be a lonely guy.

[Da_Realist]

That's really sad. Jordan must be a lonely guy.

Which I don't agree with. MJ is not in a league of his own. But Lebron isn't there...at least not yet. Let's see what happens over the next 5 years. One ring gets you invited to the party, but you're sitting at the kiddie table. :oldlol:

[TheFan]

In terms of career accomplishments, he may be right... but in terms of game, talent ,impact, skills, there are plethora of players in the same ballpark.

heck every era we have 4-5 MJs.

[QUIZZLE]

In terms of career accomplishments, he may be right... but in terms of game, talent ,impact, skills, there are plethora of players in the same ballpark.

heck every era we have 4-5 MJs.

You sure you just said that?

[iamgine]

So everyone's open to Michael?

[pauk]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.

In that sense i agree with you absolutely...

But i just mean if you only take a look at what the players can do on the court at their best... even for one night... seeing their talent-skill, productions, leadership, iq, domination, versatility on both ends of the floor as perimeter players..... surely then you must agree after Jordan we havent seen anybody being a better all-round/overall individual player than Lebron (yes i said all-round, Jordan was an amazing all-round player)... But their gamestyles are not entirely similar tho, Lebron is alot bigger and is more leaning towards the likes of Pippen (defensively) and Magic/Oscar (offensively)

[TheFan]

You sure you just said that?

yup, i said in terms of talent... remember Jordan is not only Jordan the player, Jordan is a combination of dots in a checklist.

Jordan = super talented player + great teammates + right coach + avoiding injuries... etc.

There are other super talented players who didn't have the teammates, or the coach, or wasn't lucky with injuries, etc, etc.

For example, is a player like, lets say, Prime Tracy McGrady too behind of Jordan in terms of raw talent? or what about Grant Hill?

Jordan is a super talented player that won 6 championships and 5 MVPs, 6 MVPs finals, thats what separate him from the rest.

[Da_Realist]

In that sense i agree with you absolutely...

But i just mean if you only take a look at what the players can do on the court at their best... even for one night... seeing their talent-skill, productions, leadership, iq, domination, versatility on both ends of the floor..... surely then you must agree after Jordan we havent seen anybody being a better all-round/overall individual player than Lebron (yes i said all-round, Jordan was an amazing all-round player)

Yeah, but for one night, you open the door to many, many people that can play on a high enough level.

With Lebron, the question is... How badly does he want to dominate the league? Cause it's going to take more than just talent. What he was able to do this year, he won't be able to get away with going forward. At least not with the same success rate. He'll need to stay ahead of the curve. He'll need to compensate for when he loses half a step. He'll somehow need to shake off how happy he is now and act like he never won a thing.

We want to see how badly he wants to win now that he's already won. Excuses are a lot easier to make when you already have a ring. How long is that parade gonna last? Until next January?? Or is he back in the gym with something to prove the day after? He's already one of the greats. To be among the greatest of them, he still has some questions to answer.

[Heilige]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.


That was beautiful man. :applause: :applause:

In terms of desire and wanting to win championships, who comes closest to Jordan in that department? This is out of all the players you have watched.

[Heilige]

Yeah, but for one night, you open the door to many, many people that can play on a high enough level.

With Lebron, the question is... How badly does he want to dominate the league? Cause it's going to take more than just talent. What he was able to do this year, he won't be able to get away with going forward. At least not with the same success rate. He'll need to stay ahead of the curve. He'll need to compensate for when he loses half a step. He'll somehow need to shake off how happy he is now and act like he never won a thing.

We want to see how badly he wants to win now that he's already won. Excuses are a lot easier to make when you already have a ring. How long is that parade gonna last? Until next January?? Or is he back in the gym with something to prove the day after? He's already one of the greats. To be among the greatest of them, he still has some questions to answer.


:applause: :applause:

After Jordan would win a championship, how many days later would he be in the gym? Would it be a week right after winning? How long would he take off before getting back to training, working out, etc?

[cteach111]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.

uhh, if Miami wins 6-8 rings then the discussion of GOAT is over.

It's not about the intangible aspects, but about who does the most heavy lifting for their team and winning those rings for the longest period of time.

The flaw with Jordan's legacy is that he retired for 2 years... 2 years of what ifs. He could have had 7 or 8 rings, he could have had 6-7 MVPs, but it was his choice to leave that door open. It doesn't matter what his reasons are.. all that matters is that he left the door open for someone else.

Kobe doesn't get talked about as much because the truth is that as a talent, hes not close to guys like Shaq, Jordan, Wilt, etc. Lebron is closer though and his potential to achieving the kind of GOAT legacy he is capable of is wide open.

He's a guy who plays 90% of the games every year unlike Shaq, who displayed the kind of grit that one needs to win a title this year like MJ used to, who's displayed more of a winning game compared to Wilt.

The odds are, he will outlast MJ in longevity and if I had to bet, he will definitely match, or exceed Jordan's MVP count. The potential for winning a boatload of rings is there now.

I honestly didn't think they were gonna win this year, but the potential that James is capable of in terms of passing every legend in the history of the game is there.

[Legends66NBA7]

I still think Russell, Kareem, and Wilt are up there with him.

Jordan has the best combination as a talent, career, and player though... so I can see why he's above the 3, I mentioned.

[pauk]

Yeah, but for one night, you open the door to many, many people that can play on a high enough level.

With Lebron, the question is... How badly does he want to dominate the league? Cause it's going to take more than just talent. What he was able to do this year, he won't be able to get away with going forward. At least not with the same success rate. He'll need to stay ahead of the curve. He'll need to compensate for when he loses half a step. He'll somehow need to shake off how happy he is now and act like he never won a thing.

We want to see how badly he wants to win now that he's already won. Excuses are a lot easier to make when you already have a ring. How long is that parade gonna last? Until next January?? Or is he back in the gym with something to prove the day after? He's already one of the greats. To be among the greatest of them, he still has some questions to answer.

Yep, well said... :cheers:

Thats one thing i loved the most about MJ, he wanted to dominate absolutely everything... all the time.. even if he didnt have a chance (3PT contest for example hehe)... all those young gun talents that came in he made sure to show them and everybody else who the boss is...

[TMT]

No one is close. But as for this generation Kobe is much closer than Lebron. He still has a ways to go.

[pauk]

No one is close. But as for this generation Kobe is much closer than Lebron. He still has a ways to go.

Duncan is even closer (amongst the active players he is the most accomplished), but im sure a Kobe fan wouldnt agree with me :D

[TMT]

Duncan is even closer (amongst the active players he is the most accomplished), but im sure a Kobe fan wouldnt agree with me :D

He and Kobe are probably neck and neck.
Just a tiny bit below would be Shaq.

Then everyone else.

[Foster5k]

Jordan stands alone.

[TAZORAC]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6hh9gIXT5o

:pimp:

who gives a shit because Magic Johnson said it.

[pauk]

He and Kobe are probably neck and neck.
Just a tiny bit below would be Shaq.

Then everyone else.

4 x Championships as THE MAN
3 x FMVP
2 x MVP
Rookie of the Year

vs

2 x Championships as THE MAN & 3 as a SIDEKICK (Shaq was "the man", no offense Kobe fans)
2 x FMVP
1 x MVP

Everything else is virtually identical with the 1st all-nba teams & 1st all-defensive team honors for example...

Wouldnt really say its neck and neck, close with Duncan being ahead, but not neck and neck.. but thats just me

[IGotACoolStory]

What would it take for LeBron to be in a good argument against MJ?

How many more MVPs?
How many more Championships? I'm assuming he would need to win at least 2 in a roll at some point, if not more.


Part of what carries the Jordan legacy is that you could argue at one point he was bigger than the sport. There were actually MJ only fans in the 90s. As in, people who didn't watch basketball until MJ, and only of MJ.

And he came in at the perfect time. His national (global?) dominance came right as the Magic-Bird era ended and right as the sport of basketball really started to spread, more so than the previous how many ever years.

Not to mention that his way of basketball was different. He changed the way the sport was played, for better or worse. What exactly can LeBron do in that department?


You bring all of that together along with that he was actually a truly great basketball player and winner... It's going to take more than talent to surpass him. You need a basketball player that comes in at a similar time to Jordan (perhaps one day the NBA makes a closer move on the NFL as the top USA sport), hope he is a unique breed of basketball player (something that somewhat changes the way the game is played), and hope he has all the intangibles and talent to take advantage of the situation.

Jordan is the GOAT in largely because of talent, but also timing.

[unbreakable]

cant stand when people put jordan on a pedestal...

i mean sure he's goat but lets not act like hes head and shoulders above nigggas... wilt, russ, duncan, kareem, magic, and even kobe have arguments to be close.

[pauk]

cant stand when people put jordan on a pedestal...

i mean sure he's goat but lets not act like hes head and shoulders above nigggas... wilt, russ, duncan, kareem, magic, and even kobe have arguments to be close.


Russell? yes... you could argue him being better than Jordan aswell... ive seen many decent arguments to why he should be #1...

Kareem? yes... very close, you could argue him being better than Jordan aswell... i wouldnt, but i know many who would...

Wilt? Close.. but not that close...

Magic? Close.. but not closer than the above..

Duncan? Not closer than the above...

Kobe? Not closer than the above....

[Ikill]

He was talking about career accomplishments.... in that sense he is right... nobody is close to Michael....

But in terms of talent, productions, impact, domination Lebron is the closest thing we have to MJ...
What the **** are you saying Shaq Kareem Wilt Hakeem Duncan Magic Bird were all better players than Lebron probably a few more too David Robinson

[Ikill]

What would it take for LeBron to be in a good argument against MJ?

How many more MVPs?
How many more Championships? I'm assuming he would need to win at least 2 in a roll at some point, if not more.


Part of what carries the Jordan legacy is that you could argue at one point he was bigger than the sport. There were actually MJ only fans in the 90s. As in, people who didn't watch basketball until MJ, and only of MJ.

And he came in at the perfect time. His national (global?) dominance came right as the Magic-Bird era ended and right as the sport of basketball really started to spread, more so than the previous how many ever years.

Not to mention that his way of basketball was different. He changed the way the sport was played, for better or worse. What exactly can LeBron do in that department?


You bring all of that together along with that he was actually a truly great basketball player and winner... It's going to take more than talent to surpass him. You need a basketball player that comes in at a similar time to Jordan (perhaps one day the NBA makes a closer move on the NFL as the top USA sport), hope he is a unique breed of basketball player (something that somewhat changes the way the game is played), and hope he has all the intangibles and talent to take advantage of the situation.

Jordan is the GOAT in largely because of talent, but also timing.
Lebron is just not as good as Jordan why can't people understand this so he would need more mvps and championships along with a lot more seasons at his current level like 8-10

[pauk]

Oh god.. not Ikill

[LamarOdom]

You sure you just said that?

I actually agree with him on this one, LeBron as far as talent is top 3.

[Sarcastic]

Magic Johnson put John Barry in his place. :lol

JB couldn't even respond either. He knew he had nothing to stand on.

[Kingwillball]

Pure talent Lebron > Mike, however The Championship Accomplishments and the Killer instinct along with always working so hard puts MJ in a class by himself. If LEbron EVER came close to 6 championships he would go down as the all time best but right now cant put him in the all time best conversation.

[Tenchi Ryu]

No one is close. But as for this generation Kobe is much closer than Lebron. He still has a ways to go.
This. Its not even being a homer, its just fact. For the past what, 10 years now, Kobe is and has ALWAYS been the one to be compared to Jordan in the media. He's literally the closest thing we've seen to Jordan from position to superstar role to even cultural icon.

[Kingwillball]

This. Its not even being a homer, its just fact. For the past what, 10 years now, Kobe is and has ALWAYS been the one to be compared to Jordan in the media. He's literally the closest thing we've seen to Jordan from position to superstar role to even cultural icon.


THe thing is Kobe is a poor Mans Jordan Lebron is the First of his Kind.. A little, Magic, Little MJ, Little Oscar and a Little of something that has never been seen before.

[All Net]

Behind closed doors you know magic doesn't believe this.

[TMT]

THe thing is Kobe is a poor Mans Jordan Lebron is the First of his Kind.. A little, Magic, Little MJ, Little Oscar and a Little of something that has never been seen before.

Lebron really has nothing about MJ inside him.

I agree with the rest though. He's like a Shaq/Magic/Oscar mutant basketball player. :oldlol:


This. Its not even being a homer, its just fact. For the past what, 10 years now, Kobe is and has ALWAYS been the one to be compared to Jordan in the media. He's literally the closest thing we've seen to Jordan from position to superstar role to even cultural icon.

Funny how people forget how dominant Kobe is/was after one so, so season.

[General]

Magic always takes subtle shots at Kobe. He knows Kobe will finish his career as the Greatest Laker of All Time and that clearly bothers him.

[Sarcastic]

Pure talent Lebron > Mike, however The Championship Accomplishments and the Killer instinct along with always working so hard puts MJ in a class by himself. If LEbron EVER came close to 6 championships he would go down as the all time best but right now cant put him in the all time best conversation.

He doesn't have more pure talent. He just has a bigger body.

Lebron can't do this
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/New%20Jersey%20Nets/mjvsnets.gif

[miles berg]

No one comes close in terms of talent. Shaq is the only one since Jordan hay had any legit shot.

[Kingwillball]

He doesn't have more pure talent. He just has a bigger body.

Lebron can't do this
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/New%20Jersey%20Nets/mjvsnets.gif


Maybe I should Rephrase it than; Lebron just more naturally Dominant with Size, Speed, Strength ect..

[Tenchi Ryu]

He doesn't have more pure talent. He just has a bigger body.

Lebron can't do this
http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/Michael%20Jordan/VS/New%20Jersey%20Nets/mjvsnets.gif
This is where people confuse Talent with skill. That shit right there, that's not bulldozing in the lane, that's skill to even make space like that.

[Horatio33]

I think what separates MJ from others with 5/6 rings is he has iconic moments. LeBron just won FMVP, happy for him but did he have a Flu Game? Six threes in the first half plus shrug? "OH, A SPEK-TAK-ULAR MOVE!" moment? Layup-steal-swish moment?

Kobe may have the rings, but how many iconic moments like above does he have? Duncan? Kareem?

[TMT]

Finesse vs. Physicality

[GOBB]

Kobe may have the rings, but how many iconic moments like above does he have? Magic? Duncan? Kareem?

Well since you counted them up. How many did Duncan, Kareem and Magic have? Or you just typed that because it sounded really really really good?

[Horatio33]

Well since you counted them up. How many did Duncan, Kareem and Magic have? Or you just typed that because it sounded really really really good?

Its's not really the rings, it's the iconic moments. Duncan is my faourite player, but the casual fan will not remember one thing from his titles. Kobe, fans will remember him winning rings, but no 'Jordan' moments. Magic i removed him, as he has the game 6 versus Philly, and the 'junior junior sky hook'.

[bizil]

When it comes to MJ, Ruth, Jim Brown, and Ali, they are such mythic and transcendant figures that it's really hard to top those guys. Even if ability wise a guy is close. I happen to think Kobe not Bron is the closest thing to MJ in terms of playing style, ability, etc. But the thing is u can't out MJ MJ! lol

But Bron is a completely different beast never seen before in the L. He's the size of Karl Malone, but has the top shelf freak athletic ability to go with it. And he's has the handles and passing of the elite PG's which makes him similar to Magic. And on top of it he's a great defender capable of defending damn near every position. These are traits that MJ can't even touch, which makes Bron special. Bron is also the face of the L just like MJ. And he will be the long term face of the L just like MJ. So in terms of face of the L shit, Bron is more similar to MJ than Kobe.

If Bron wins some rings and has some more takeover scoring moments, he can be MJ's biggest threat EVER! But in terms of flat out playing style and attributes, Kobe is the closest thing to MJ. For me I put a premium on being a true alpha dog and willing a team through takeover scoring. MJ and Kobe are STILL on another level than Bron in that sense. But make no mistake, the six greatest perimeter guys ever are MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe, Big O, and Bron. All have epic all around packages in different ways. And amongst them, Bron is the most unique and versatile. Which is saying a hell of a lot!

[GOBB]

Its's not really the rings, it's the iconic moments. Duncan is my faourite player, but the casual fan will not remember one thing from his titles. Kobe, fans will remember him winning rings, but no 'Jordan' moments. Magic i removed him, as he has the game 6 versus Philly, and the 'junior junior sky hook'.

What iconic moments did Duncan have? Go on and list them.

[andgar923]

In that sense i agree with you absolutely...

But i just mean if you only take a look at what the players can do on the court at their best... even for one night... seeing their talent-skill, productions, leadership, iq, domination, versatility on both ends of the floor as perimeter players..... surely then you must agree after Jordan we havent seen anybody being a better all-round/overall individual player than Lebron (yes i said all-round, Jordan was an amazing all-round player)... But their gamestyles are not entirely similar tho, Lebron is alot bigger and is more leaning towards the likes of Pippen (defensively) and Magic/Oscar (offensively)

Honestly as far as their game is concerned, Kobe is close to MJ than Bron. As far as domination I suppose it's Bron to some extent.

But like many of us have mentioned, MJ is the combination of Bron, Wade and Kobe, but better.

[Tenchi Ryu]

What iconic moments did Duncan have? Go on and list them.
I thought Duncan putting down Shaq and his lakers was pretty big.

[Horatio33]

What iconic moments did Duncan have? Go on and list them.

Can you read? Your mom's basement must get dark. He hasn't had any!

[KingBeasley08]

What iconic moments did Duncan have? Go on and list them.
I think you're misunderstanding him. I think he was saying that Kobe, Duncan, Magic, and Kareem don't have those 'Jordan moments'

Although, Magic's closeout game in the Finals rookie year gotta count

[Horatio33]

I thought Duncan putting down Shaq and his lakers was pretty big.

Not something casual fans will remember, like Jordan.

[StarJordan]

Although, Magic's closeout game in the Finals rookie year gotta count

In Magic's case it was the sky hook over the celtics in 87 finals

[Blue&Orange]

Jordan could have zero rings, Lebron and Kobe 10, and i would still have Jordan over both by a wide margin.

Lebron & Kobe = Overrated ring chasers, that come short when it matters most and are constantly bailout by teammates.

[nightprowler10]

I think what separates MJ from others with 5/6 rings is he has iconic moments. LeBron just won FMVP, happy for him but did he have a Flu Game? Six threes in the first half plus shrug? "OH, A SPEK-TAK-ULAR MOVE!" moment? Layup-steal-swish moment?

Kobe may have the rings, but how many iconic moments like above does he have? Duncan? Kareem?
This makes sense, which is also why Dr. J is so highly regarded.

[GOBB]

I think you're misunderstanding him. I think he was saying that Kobe, Duncan, Magic, and Kareem don't have those 'Jordan moments'

Although, Magic's closeout game in the Finals rookie year gotta count

Yeah I misread, blame multitasking. :facepalm

[OldSchoolBBall]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.

+10000

[Nevaeh]

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.

Great post Da Realist. Also keep in mind that all of Jordan's peers were gunning for him as well, to knock him off the "Pedestal", back in the day. Even the "New Jack" Players were gunning for him during his second 3-peat.

I still remember the Bull's game against the Lakers in 98 in LA, where the Lakers ran the Bulls right out of the gym. After the game, an LA reporter asks Jordan "Does your team still have what it takes to get back to the Finals" or something like that. Jordan responds by saying "Oh I know we'll be there. But I don't know about you guys".

Some would call that arrogance, but Jordan, by this time in his career, knew not to get baited into any Media created rivalries, whether it was with Kobe, Grant Hill, Allen Houston or whoever, and was dead set on his goal of a 6th Title, team injuries and all, no matter what. Exceeding the hype, and not just mearly living up to it, is what made MJ special.

[RaininTwos]

This is the exact non-sense I was talking about in my thread earlier this week. The myth that no one is close to Jordan, how can people be so stupid?

[Legends66NBA7]

This is the exact non-sense I was talking about in my thread earlier this week. The myth that no one is close to Jordan, how can people be so stupid?

Who's close to you ?

[keepinitreal]

in this clip, i didn't hear magic say, "no one is close to michael."

i heard him say that lebron, durant, and kobe are not close to michael.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Bird and Magic are all on the same tier as MJ (at least in their primes they were).

[Odinn]

Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Bird and Magic are all on the same tier as MJ (at least in their primes they were).
As for peaks and primes;, Magic and Russell were not on the same tier.

Also this one is hilarious;

Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Bird and Magic are all on the same tier as MJ (at least in their primes they were).

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

As for peaks and primes;, Magic and Russell were not on the same tier.

Also this one is hilarious;

Yes they were. And I meant Wilt. :oldlol:

[Nevaeh]

As for peaks and primes;, Magic and Russell were not on the same tier.

Also this one is hilarious;

I think Kuniva was including "Wizards MJ" in that quote. And he's right!!
:D

[Remix]

MJ>>Kobe>Lebron

Lebron wont move up anymore imo. He's as good as he's going to get, he still hasn't found a consistent jumpshot (showed in the playoffs), footwork is getting a little better but still way below average and I think he's going to decline drastically in about 5 years when his athleticism falls off. Footwork, IQ, and a jumpshot are the things that are going to keep Kobe an All-Star for the next 3 years.

[RaininTwos]

Who's close to you ?
LMAO:oldlol: :oldlol:

No one at the moment.:(

[ripthekik]

Lebron is nowhere close, nowhere.

So far the closest is Kobe. His career achievements simply cannot be ignored.

[AK47DR91]

Jordan did what Chamberlain couldn't do, which was winning in the playoffs.

Jordan also did what Kareem couldn't do, which was dominating both regular season and in the playoffs. KAJ was able to win 5 MVPs in the 70's, yet only managed 1 championship in that decade- a decade known to be a weak era by many.

The 6 rings wouldn't be important if it didn't come with 6 Finals MVP, 4 of his 5 MVPs came during the 6 championship years, 6 of his 10 scoring titles came in during the 6 championship seasons, etc. These combinations are why he's the greatest and will be for a long time.

He was probably robbed of a couple of MVPs as well.

[Legends66NBA7]

LMAO:oldlol: :oldlol:

No one at the moment.:(

Okay, I can see where my message didn't translate well. :oldlol:

I meant who do you think is close Michael Jordan in terms of as a player/career ?

[RaininTwos]

Okay, I can see where my message didn't translate well. :oldlol:

I meant who do you think is close Michael Jordan in terms of as a player/career ?

Kareem easily.

[dude77]

Lebron is nowhere close, nowhere.

So far the closest is Kobe. His career achievements simply cannot be ignored.

:oldlol:

[ripthekik]

:oldlol:
5 > 1*
:confusedshrug:

[Hyperephania]

5 > 1*
:confusedshrug:

11 > 5
Kobe as closest lmao

[Remix]

11 > 5
Kobe as closest lmao
I think he meant post-Jordan.

[ripthekik]

11 > 5
Kobe as closest lmao
I was talking about current players only. Among Current active players, Kobe is the closest.

If we talking All-NBA, then why use Michael as a standard? I don't really have a stand on it, but even Michael being the best of ALL time is debatable. Why are we assuming he is the GOAT and looking for the #2 closest already, when we haven't determined the first part?

[Hyperephania]

I was talking about current players only. Among Current active players, Kobe is the closest.

If we talking All-NBA, then why use Michael as a standard? I don't really have a stand on it, but even Michael being the best of ALL time is debatable. Why are we assuming he is the GOAT and looking for the #2 closest already, when we haven't determined the first part?

Oh well then :cheers:
I also dislike Jordan seemingly being the clear # 1.

[dude77]

5 > 1*
:confusedshrug:

I'm talking about this ..


So far the closest is Kobe

again ..

:oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm talking about this ..



again ..

:oldlol:

Yep. :oldlol:

On an all-time scale, he'll be better than Kobe if he wins another title and Finals Mvp. Reality.

[Legends66NBA7]

Jordan did what Chamberlain couldn't do, which was winning in the playoffs.

Wilt anchored two of the greatest basketball teams of all-time, the 1967 Sixers (68-13) and 1972 Lakers (69-13).

The 67 Sixers eliminated the 8-peat Boston Celtics in 5 games. Wilt put up a triple double in that final game and averaged 22/29/9 on 58%fg during that playoff run.

The 72 Lakers had the remarkable 33 game winning streak.

Wilt won Finals MVP both years (would have won it in 67 if the award existed at the time).

Sure, he didn't win 6 chips, but he won in the playoffs.


Jordan also did what Kareem couldn't do, which was dominating both regular season and in the playoffs.

Not true.

He did step up, definitely in his prime:

http://gyazo.com/37bef4271cbe3f93d46e825822c2f30d.png

His role would change when Magic got in the Lakers and he was contributing as high as possibly could even past his prime.


KAJ was able to win 5 MVPs in the 70's, yet only managed 1 championship in that decade- a decade known to be a weak era by many.

I don't really buy the weak era argument. All era's different and really you could make case that every era is weak.

And really, Kareem wasn't always the main reason they didn't win more than 1 title. Not many can fall back on 5 MVP's and many other accolades in a decade's span, like Kareem can.


The 6 rings wouldn't be important if it didn't come with 6 Finals MVP, 4 of his 5 MVPs came during the 6 championship years, 6 of his 10 scoring titles came in during the 6 championship seasons, etc.

He was probably robbed of a couple of MVPs as well.

I always wonder what Bill Russell's resume would be like if Finals MVP has existed from the start.

He would definitely have had a minimum of 7, so he would have had the most clearly. Russell also would have had 4 MVP and Finals MVP's seasons, according to this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157369

I would still say Jordan has the best case overall for GOAT, but it's not that cut and dry to me.

[Legends66NBA7]

Kareem easily.

Cool. :cheers:

I have Kareem, Russell and Wilt as well, on the same level of Jordan too.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

This is the exact non-sense I was talking about in my thread earlier this week. The myth that no one is close to Jordan, how can people be so stupid?

No one even close? I can understand why a lot of people have Jordan as the GOAT but there are several guys who are close to his level.

I was always impressed by Magic Johnson's career. He got to the NBA Finals in 9 of his 12 years in the league (not counting his 32 game comeback in 1996). He won 5 out of 9 and could have won 6 if he didn't pull a hammy in 1989 and miss almost the whole series.

You factor in that he was Playing with Kareem and a lot of talent but the teams he was playing against were stacked with hall of famers.
Dr J's Sixers, Larry Bird's Celtics, Detroit Bad Boys, Michael Jordan's Bulls. Does that Resume mean his legacy and career is no where close to Jordan's?

They play different positions and they had different responsabilites but Magic's career was pretty f**king good.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Cool. :cheers:

I have him, Russell and Wilt as well, on the same level of Jordan too.

People that place Jordan on a pedestal are usually jockers that never even watched him play. To say Russell, Wilt, Kareem or Magic weren't on his tier, in their primes, is asinine. :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

Yep. :oldlol:

On an all-time scale, he'll be better than Kobe if he wins another title and Finals Mvp. Reality.
Nope, maybe in your dream land.
As long as he plays with 2 other stars, who shoulders the games when he plays bad, he'll never be a true champion. His margin of error is much wider than any other true champion. They had to play 100% every game or they would be blown out. Not Lebron. He can have 2 more titles with the Heat and still wouldn't be on Kobe's level.

Yeah, he got rings, but with a top 3 SG and top 5 PF. Give that to Kobe in his prime and he'll be getting rings too. In fact give it to any top 3 player at any time in league history, and there is a high chance they will win the ring. What's so special about Lebron? :confusedshrug:

[RaininTwos]

Hey Legends, do you see what I am talking about though?

[RaininTwos]

No one even close? I can understand why a lot of people have Jordan as the GOAT but there are several guys who are close to his level.

I was always impressed by Magic Johnson's career. He got to the NBA Finals in 9 of his 12 years in the league (not counting his 32 game comeback in 1996). He won 5 out of 9 and could have won 6 if he didn't pull a hammy in 1989 and miss almost the whole series.

You factor in that he was Playing with Kareem and a lot of talent but the teams he was playing against were stacked with hall of famers.
Dr J's Sixers, Larry Bird's Celtics, Detroit Bad Boys, Michael Jordan's Bulls. Does that Resume mean his legacy and career is no where close to Jordan's?

They play different positions and they had different responsabilites but Magic's career was pretty f**king good.

I'm on your side bro. My point was that it is stupid to claim that no one is close to Jordan.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Nope, maybe in your dream land.
As long as he plays with 2 other stars

Oh boy. The shitty troll couldn't resist. :oldlol:

Hey, Kobe never played with Shaq guys. Bynum and Pau? They aren't all stars either. :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

Oh boy. The shitty troll couldn't resist. :oldlol:

Hey, Kobe never played with Shaq guys. Bynum and Pau? They aren't all stars either. :oldlol:
They were pairs of stars, which had to shoulder a tremendous amount of pressure and responsibility in order to win a ring. Night in, night out. Kobe had Shaq. Shaq had Kobe.

Bynum the year Kobe won avged 7ppg. Are you really going to bring him up? :oldlol:

Your knowledge of the game, or lack thereof, is truly appalling.

[AK47DR91]

Legends66NBA7 (Good response by the way)
I know Chamberlain won, but to have two titles in a career that was able to put up unbreakable numbers just isn't enough to be a true winner to me. 100 points in a game, 50 PPG, 25 RPG...then to have two chips? Something just doesn't seem right about that. Like Wilt, Babe Ruth was also an urban legend but he had 7 championships to resume so it made his godly numbers legit.

Kareem, I won't argue with anybody who wants to say he's the greatest basketball player ever because he was if we counted NCAA accolades. In NBA along, he's #2.

Russell, I'll say he's the greatest team player and winner of all time. His offense doesn't live up to that of Jordan, Kareem or Wilt.

As much as I sound like a pro-Jordan, I don't like the idea that these 6 names(Jordan, Kareem, Chamberlain, Russell, Magic, Bird) will untouchable as if they're immortalized. Like fans who lived through Magic and Bird era, and then Jordan as they climbed into the Top 5, I too want to see LeBron or any new superstar of my generation to have a crack at the top spot too.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Who was a more valuable player than Bill Russell? 11 Rings. He coached the f**king team for 2 of those. lol. They didn't even keep track of blocked shots back then either. Nor did they have Defensive player of the year awards.

Kareem? 6 MVP awards, 6 Championships.

Wilt might be a better player than both of them even though he didn't always have the best team. Are his 2 rings in the era of the Celtic juggernaut less important than Jordan's 6 rings against the likes of the Sonics and Jazz? Debatable at least.

Bird, Duncan, Shaq? Not even close?

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I too want to see LeBron or any new superstar of my generation to have a crack at the top spot too.

Lebron's going into his tenth year. It's gonna take a lot for him climb over some of those names. Anything's possible but I doubt it. As great of a scorer as Durant is, his narrow ass isn't going to get into Jordan's neighborhood either.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I'm on your side bro. My point was that it is stupid to claim that no one is close to Jordan.

I was just agreeing with you brother.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

They were pairs of stars, which had to shoulder a tremendous amount of pressure and responsibility in order to win a ring. Night in, night out. Kobe had Shaq. Shaq had Kobe.

Bynum the year Kobe won avged 7ppg. Are you really going to bring him up? :oldlol:

Your knowledge of the game, or lack thereof, is truly appalling.

Yeah, except Shaq was the most dominant player of his era. I don't know if you know this or not, but with his stint with the Lakers, Shaq won 3 Finals MVPs; this to Kobe's 0.

Of course a shitty troll like you would look over the fact, from top to bottom, Kobe's Lakers were more stacked than this years Heat. Remind me what Lebron and Wade were doing without Bosh during the Pacers and Celtics series? Yeah, that's right. Keep that trap shut, troll. :oldlol: Kobe hasn't won anything without a big man rebounding his bricks. That's a fact.

[RaininTwos]

I was just agreeing with you brother.
oh ok, my fault:oldlol:

[AK47DR91]

Lebron's going into his tenth year. It's gonna take a lot for him climb over some of those names. Anything's possible but I doubt it. As great of a scorer as Durant is, his narrow ass isn't going to get into Jordan's neighborhood either.
Yeah, I know. That's why those top 6 seems so untouchable.

I'm a little more cynical of Russell and Wilt's accomplishments though, because I feel that the game and league has improve so much since the Magic and Bird era that I think guys like Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan could have won as much and put up similar numbers as Wilt and Russell did. I'll leave out Jordan, LeBron and Kobe because they're not centers.

Wouldn't you agree that the league has gotten so much better since the mid-80's? At least compared to the 40's-60's.

[ripthekik]

Yeah, except Shaq was the most dominant player of his era. I don't know if you know this or not, but with his stint with the Lakers, Shaq won 3 Finals MVPs; this to Kobe's 0.

Of course a shitty troll like you would look over the fact, from top to bottom, Kobe's Lakers were more stacked than this years Heat. Remind me what Lebron and Wade were doing without Bosh during the Pacers and Celtics series? Yeah, that's right. Keep that trap shut, troll. :oldlol: Kobe hasn't won anything without a big man rebounding his bricks. That's a fact.
So Shaq, as the most dominant player of his era, only needed Kobe.
Lebron, as the most dominant player of this era, needs a top 3 SG and top 5 PF :oldlol: Is that not a joke to you?

Lakers being more stacked than Heat :roll: Did they have 2 of the leagues top 3 players and a top 5 PF???
You are the one who needs to go back and look at things clearly, check out the Lakers roster and you will be suprised. This year the big 3 were more than enough help. Not to mention Haslem and Battier.

Kobe has proven he can win with just Gasol. Lebron has proven nothing. Yeah..

Oh, and again resorting to personal attacks. Your go-to move when getting embarassed. :oldlol: Your momma taught you well.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So Shaq, as the most dominant player of his era, only needed Kobe.
Lebron, as the most dominant player of this era, needs a top 3 SG and top 5 PF :oldlol: Is that not a joke to you?

Only? Seriously ONLY? Shaq's peak was that of a top 3 player.....all-time.

Paper names don't mean anything. Bosh was injured for the bulk of the playoffs and Wade has regressed this season considerably.

Congrats, you baited me. :oldlol: I'm done with you though, moron.

[Legends66NBA7]

People that place Jordan on a pedestal are usually jockers that never even watched him play. To say Russell, Wilt, Kareem or Magic weren't on his tier, in their primes, is asinine. :oldlol:

Very true.

I would also add Larry Bird, considering at his peak... some called him the GOAT. So it does speak volumes.

Magic and Bird, with the systems they played in, definitely were superior team players to Jordan, as well.


Hey Legends, do you see what I am talking about though?

Yeah I see what you mean, man.

Some of the reasons that people are stating that ____ player isn't close... and then use false claims. It's why I have to step in and defend the past levels the best I can.

I think it's also because of a lack of understanding of NBA history (I don't claim to know everything... I do always try to learn from era's, I wasn't fortunate to watch) and it's past players, besides just Jordan.

I liked the concept of this old thread, actually:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=142357

I do also feel Jordan gets underrated and put down a few levels in the past and even now... but there's also balance of fans who will defend Jordan at almost anything to see him put up at a high level.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Yeah, except Shaq was the most dominant player of his era. I don't know if you know this or not, but with his stint with the Lakers, Shaq won 3 Finals MVPs; this to Kobe's 0.

Of course a shitty troll like you would look over the fact, from top to bottom, Kobe's Lakers were more stacked than this years Heat. Remind me what Lebron and Wade were doing without Bosh during the Pacers and Celtics series? Yeah, that's right. Keep that trap shut, troll. :oldlol: Kobe hasn't won anything without a big man rebounding his bricks. That's a fact.

Broseph,

Magic Johnson won the Finals MVP in 1980 but Jabbar could and maybe should have won it the way he performed. In 1988 Worthy won the Finals MVP based on his scoring and triple double in game 7. Magic wasn't deserving of that MVP as well? Those are just two examples.

Are you following me? The point I'm trying to make is that just because Shaq won 3 finals mvp's doesn't make Kobe into Rick Fox. Furthermore those Laker teams were not stacked. They had 2 of the top players in the league and a bunch of veteran role players. Not one of them had as much talent as a 27 year old Chris Bosh. In 2001 and 2002 the 3rd biggest producing player was Derek Fisher. Those are facts.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Broseph,

Magic Johnson won the Finals MVP in 1980 but Jabbar could and maybe should have won it the way he performed. In 1988 Worthy won the Finals MVP based on his scoring and triple double in game 7. Magic wasn't deserving of that MVP as well? Those are just two examples.

Are you following me? The point I'm trying to make is that just because Shaq won 3 finals mvp's doesn't make Kobe into Rick Fox. Furthermore those Laker teams were not stacked. They had 2 of the top players in the league and a bunch of veteran role players. Not one of them had as much talent as a 27 year old Chris Bosh. In 2001 and 2002 the 3rd biggest producing player was Derek Fisher. Those are facts.

Hmm, alright. When did I say that though? :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

Only? Seriously ONLY? Shaq's peak was that of a top 3 player.....all-time.

Paper names don't mean anything. Bosh was injured for the bulk of the playoffs and Wade has regressed this season considerably.

Congrats, you baited me. :oldlol: I'm done with you though, moron.
Yeah, no one wins it alone. As dominant as Shaq was, he still needed Kobe, and there was nothing wrong with that.

Lebron, one of the most dominant in the league today, should be only needing one star as well, but he went the chicken route and needed 2. Don't deny their importance this playoffs, it only shows you haven't watched the games. Without them, Heat lose.

Sigh, Lebron stans :rolleyes:

[ripthekik]

They had 2 of the top players in the league and a bunch of veteran role players. Not one of them had as much talent as a 27 year old Chris Bosh. In 2001 and 2002 the 3rd biggest producing player was Derek Fisher. Those are facts.
That's something this retard cannot accept. He calls that Lakers team STACKED. :oldlol: This guy has already proven he has no knowledge on NBA history, and blabs out anything for the defence of Lebron.
Shaq and Kobe only needed one other star, and then they willed their teams to the championships.

Lebron needed the insurance of another top 3 star, WITH another top 5 PF. Whole different level. He might be as good a player, but his accomplishments will never be judged the same as the other true champions.

[Legends66NBA7]

@ AK47DR91


I know Chamberlain won, but to have two titles in a career that was able to put up unbreakable numbers just isn't enough to be a true winner to me. 100 points in a game, 50 PPG, 25 RPG...then to have two chips? Something just doesn't seem right about that. Like Wilt, Babe Ruth was also an urban legend but he had 7 championships to resume so it made his godly numbers legit.

Yes, I can see why people wouldn't understand why he didn't win more titles, or even win back to back titles. He might havebeen the most talented player... ever, the game of basketball has seen, but probably didn't use them to figure "it" out.

I think it also came down to his personality and ego with teammates that hindered him from winning more titles.



Kareem, I won't argue with anybody who wants to say he's the greatest basketball player ever because he was if we counted NCAA accolades. In NBA along, he's #2.

Yup, no argument from me here.

I have respect from anybody ranking him from #1-4. :cheers:


Russell, I'll say he's the greatest team player and winner of all time. His offense doesn't live up to that of Jordan, Kareem or Wilt.

I do feel Russell's offense can go undervalued at times, but greatest winner title, it's cool with me.

The man just lived for it (winning).




As much as I sound like a pro-Jordan, I don't like the idea that these 6 names(Jordan, Kareem, Chamberlain, Russell, Magic, Bird) will untouchable as if they're immortalized. Like fans who lived through Magic and Bird era, and then Jordan as they climbed into the Top 5, I too want to see LeBron or any new superstar of my generation to have a crack at the top spot too.

Well, I feel that's the Big 6 I look at as well, in terms of the best players, impact, career, etc.. It really is a tough mountain climb.

I think Shaq deserves a mention too, but I think he may underachieved in terms of his full potential.

LeBron might challenge them one day, which would be great to see as well, since I've been watching him since high school.

[AK47DR91]

Legends66NBA7
I don't mind a good discussion on the all-time ranking, and you brought that. Cheers! :cheers:

Also, I too think Shaq's a bit unappreciated at the moment because of the last 4 years of his career. But during his prime and peak, he was unstoppable. Personally I got him at #7, slightly above Duncan because I feel his prime/peak was better than Duncan.

[Tenchi Ryu]

Legends66NBA7
I don't mind a good discussion on the all-time ranking, and you brought that. Cheers! :cheers:

Also, I too think Shaq's a bit unappreciated at the moment because of the last 4 years of his career. But during his prime and peak, he was unstoppable. Personally I got him at #7, slightly above Duncan because I feel his prime/peak was better than Duncan.
Which is why I don't understand why people are so quick to compare Lebron to the Jordan and the likes already. IMO, if you want to start comparing Lebron and his dominance to someone, it should be Shaq first

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Yeah, I know. That's why those top 6 seems so untouchable.

I'm a little more cynical of Russell and Wilt's accomplishments though, because I feel that the game and league has improve so much since the Magic and Bird era that I think guys like Shaq, Hakeem and Duncan could have won as much and put up similar numbers as Wilt and Russell did. I'll leave out Jordan, LeBron and Kobe because they're not centers.

Wouldn't you agree that the league has gotten so much better since the mid-80's? At least compared to the 40's-60's.

I don't know if I think the league is vastly better today than it was in the 60's. There are more teams so the odds of winning a title are less. Overall, current players are bigger and more athletic. I don't think that automatically means that they are better.

I have a really hard time discounting a guy like Wilt who played in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The reason I say that is because I watched Kareem play. That dude was a bad ass and one of the best of all time. However I know for a fact that a past-his-prime Wilt was able to go toe to toe with Kareem in some cases even out play him. Late in his career Kareem was able to hang with and at times dominate a guy like Hakeem. Now if the league in the 60's is so much better than the "modern game" you would think Kareem would have smoked Wilt.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Yeah, no one wins it alone. As dominant as Shaq was, he still needed Kobe, and there was nothing wrong with that.

Lebron, one of the most dominant in the league today, should be only needing one star as well, but he went the chicken route and needed 2. Don't deny their importance this playoffs, it only shows you haven't watched the games. Without them, Heat lose.

Sigh, Lebron stans :rolleyes:

No one is denying their importance, genius. You're saying Kobe 'only needed' Shaq. Prime Shaq >>>> 2012 Wade and Chris Bosh...combined.

As far as your response to Kobe4thewin (LOL) goes; I wasn't talking about the 2000-02 Lakers (a top 3 player all-time and a top 5 player at that time should be enough to win in a watered down era). Who I was referring to were the '09 and '10 Lakers. Odom, Ariza, Artest, Gasol (who had a better playoff effiency rating than Bryant in 2010 LOL), Bynum? That isn't stacked now? LOL at Kobe stans. :oldlol:

[Kobe 4 The Win]

No one is denying their importance, genius. You're saying Kobe 'only needed' Shaq. Prime Shaq >>>> 2012 Wade and Chris Bosh...combined.

As far as your response to Kobe4thewin (LOL) goes; I wasn't talking about the 2000-02 Lakers (a top 3 player all-time and a top 5 player at that time should be enough to win in a watered down era). Who I was referring to were the '09 and '10 Lakers. Odom, Ariza, Artest, Gasol (who had a better playoff effiency rating than Bryant in 2010 LOL), Bynum? That isn't stacked now? LOL at Kobe stans. :oldlol:


Whoa whoa whoa. So the 2009 and 2010 Lakers were stacked? lol. To me during that run, Pau is a Bosh. Lamar was a guy who could play like Wilt one night and get 20 and 20 and then get 5 points in the next game. Ariza and Artest were solid role players. Kobe is kinda in the Wade role because they play the same position and their stats usually compare. LA is missing a Lebron. lol. PER is joke to me so there's no point in me going down that road with you.

I think that Lebron is almost good enough to win one on his own. Look at what he did in Cleveland with a shit coach and no talent. I don't want to discredit his ring because of Wade and Bosh. I disagree with people that think that Kobe shouldn't get credit for 3 of his 5 rings because Shaq won finals mvp. Then they act like wade and Bosh aren't all-star starters and among the best players in the league. Some folks want to give Lebron all the credit and act like Kobe's been carried to everything. I don't know if you are one of them but that's bullshit.

If you want to talk about a watered down era when LA won it's 3 peat I'll refer you back to the fact that half the stars in the eastern conference were hurt this year and Miami had a clear path to the finals. They still almost managed to blow that to 75% of the Boston Celtics.

[ripthekik]

No one is denying their importance, genius. You're saying Kobe 'only needed' Shaq. Prime Shaq >>>> 2012 Wade and Chris Bosh...combined.

As far as your response to Kobe4thewin (LOL) goes; I wasn't talking about the 2000-02 Lakers (a top 3 player all-time and a top 5 player at that time should be enough to win in a watered down era). Who I was referring to were the '09 and '10 Lakers. Odom, Ariza, Artest, Gasol (who had a better playoff effiency rating than Bryant in 2010 LOL), Bynum? That isn't stacked now? LOL at Kobe stans. :oldlol:
Another idiotic comeback.
Shaq was the man of that team, he "only needed" Kobe.
Kobe was the man of his later teams, he "only needed" Gasol.
A top 3 player and top 5 player should be able to win.. you said it right there. How about Lebron? A top 1 player and top 3 player.. yet he still needed the help of another top5 PF :roll: :roll: Not to mentioned his weak competition in the East. Thanks for helping my case.

Stacked? Other than Pau Gasol:
Odom really??? Artest? :roll:
Bynum averaged 7 points in the finals, if you had any knowledge of bball you would have known he was a scrub then, instead of just going by "names on the paper".

Go back to your hole :oldlol:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Whoa whoa whoa. So the 2009 and 2010 Lakers were stacked? lol. To me during that run, Pau is a Bosh.

Pau was MUCH better than this version of Bosh.

-better offensively
-better on the boards
-more efficient
-skilled

Bosh gave you better defense but only in stretches. Remember, he was injured for much of the playoffs. Wade was no where close to 100% - but despite his injuries, he was better than Pau (albeit debatable), Odom and Bynum. I'll give you that. My point is that top to bottom the Lakers had a better team. Miami is well known for being top heavy.

Kobe was instrumental during the Laker 3-peat. Probably the best second option of all-time. I don't disagree. I'm finished with this topic though.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Another idiotic comeback.
Shaq was the man of that team, he "only needed" Kobe.
Kobe was the man of his later teams, he "only needed" Gasol.
A top 3 player and top 5 player should be able to win.. you said it right there. How about Lebron? A top 1 player and top 3 player.. yet he still needed the help of another top5 PF :roll: :roll: Not to mentioned his weak competition in the East. Thanks for helping my case.

Stacked? Other than Pau Gasol:
Odom really??? Artest? :roll:
Bynum averaged 7 points in the finals, if you had any knowledge of bball you would have known he was a scrub then, instead of just going by "names on the paper".

A top 5 PF that was riddled with injuries and a top 3 SG that declined in the playoffs. Keep ignoring that though. That's what you do best, troll. :oldlol:

Not sure why this tool keeps bringing up Bynum's offensive output. :confusedshrug:

Did he not play defense and rebound? How about Gasol? Did Gasol not lead the Lakers in PER?


Go back to your hole :oldlol:

Educate your stupid ass.

[ripthekik]

Last reply:

A top 5 PF that was riddled with injuries and a top 3 SG that declined in the playoffs. Keep ignoring that though. That's what you do best, troll. :oldlol:

Not sure why this tool keeps bringing up Bynum's offensive output. :confusedshrug:

Did he not play defense and rebound? How about Gasol? Did Gasol not lead the Lakers in PER?
Educate your stupid ass.
Again, I go back to what I have said, Wade and Bosh's inputs are crucial to the Heat winning this year. BOTH of them, without one of them, Heat would be done. Lebron, as the number 1 player of the league, still needed THAT MUCH help. Tells a lot about him.

I keep bringing up his offensive output because you never watched the games and you have no idea what your mouth is running. Defense and rebound? You want to know how many rebounds he had? 5.

As for Gasol, why did I not bring him up? Because he was the star player I accepted as the one Kobe needed, I acknowledged his contributions. But outside Gasol, Kobe did not need another star, unlike this Bron dude.

Few suggestions for you: if you want to run your mouth on past series, better know them clearly. Learn to read more and understand the arguments more clearly. Reading skills are crucial. Thanks for your time. Talk about owned. :oldlol:

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Pau was MUCH better than this current Bosh.

-better offensively
-better on the boards
-more efficient
-skilled

Bosh gave you better defense but only in stretches. Remember, he was injured for much of the postseason. Wade was no where close to 100% - but despite his injuries, he was better than Pau (albeit debatable), Odom and Bynum. I'll give you that. My point is that top to bottom the Lakers had a better team. Miami is well known for being top heavy.

Kobe was instrumental during the Laker 3-peat. Probably the best second option of all-time. I don't disagree. I'm finished with this topic though. That moron ripthetik got destroyed. :oldlol:

Agreed. Lebron and Wade are so dominant in transition that they will eat you up. If you give them Bosh down low and a couple of guys that can manage to hit some of the wide open shots that Lebron gets them you are golden.

I hesitate to call Kobe a second option to Shaq. Their talent was so overwhelming that no matter what approach teams took, they were screwed. One or the other of them was gonna light your ass up, maybe both at the same time. As long as guys like Fish, Horry and Fox hit their wide open shots you are gonna finish the season with jewlery.

I really believe that Bosh and Pau are about equal in what they will give to you. Bosh's stats would be a lot better if he didn't shar the ball with Lebron and Wade. I don't think LA ever had a 3rd option as good as Bosh.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Again, I go back to what I have said, Wade and Bosh's inputs are crucial to the Heat winning this year. BOTH of them, without one of them, Heat would be done. Lebron, as the number 1 player of the league, still needed THAT MUCH help. Tells a lot about him.

As did Kobe. What's your point? Bynum was a top 5 Center before he went down with injuries (just like Bosh was "top 5" player at his position), and Gasol was a top 3 PF.

:confusedshrug:


I keep bringing up his offensive output because you never watched the games and you have no idea what your mouth is running. Defense and rebound? You want to know how many rebounds he had? 5.

Wrong. I watched the games, apparently you didn't though.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html

Bynum averaged 7 rebounds (8+ in the regular season) and over 35+ blocks in the postseason.


As for Gasol, why did I not bring him up? Because he was the star player I accepted as the one Kobe needed, I acknowledged his contributions. But outside Gasol, Kobe did not need another star, unlike this Bron dude.

Right, he only needed one of the best sixth men in the NBA and another top 5 player at his position. :oldlol:


Few suggestions for you: if you want to run your mouth on past series, better know them clearly. Learn to read more and understand the arguments more clearly. Reading skills are crucial. Thanks for your time. Talk about owned. :oldlol:

I've corrected you about 5 times in this thread alone, kid. But be my guest - keep contradicting yourself. :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

As did Kobe. What's your point? Bynum was a top 5 Center before he went down with injuries (just like Bosh was "top 5" player at his position), and Gasol was a top 3 PF.

:confusedshrug:



Wrong. I watched the games, apparently you didn't though.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2010.html

Bynum averaged 7 rebounds (8+ in the regular season) and over 35+ blocks in the postseason.

Right, he only needed one of the best sixth men in the NBA and another top 5 player at his position. :oldlol:

I've corrected you about 5 times in this thread alone, kid. But be my guest - keep contradicting yourself. :oldlol:

Are you seriously telling me
Kobe, Pau, Bynum > Lebron, Wade, Bosh??
:roll: :roll:

Lebron and Wade are 2 of the top players in the game. Add in Bosh, another top PF. The help Lebron had over Kobe is just uncomparable.

Bynum did not start dominating until he came back from his injuries, prior to that he was nothing more than a role player.

Keep "correcting" me, son. I'm done with you. You are simply blinded by Lebron and cannot admit he has tremendous help which previous champions did not need, and he couldn't have succeeded without them.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Are you seriously telling me
Kobe, Pau, Bynum > Lebron, Wade, Bosh??
:roll: :roll:

I'm telling you, that from 2009-2010, the Lakers had a better OVERALL team than the 2011-2012 Heat.

Kobe (arguably the best player in the league in 2009...and 2010), Pau (top 3 PF), Bynum (top 5 center--despite playing with injuries), Lamar (top 3 6th men off the bench--and in 2011, THE 6th man of the year), Ariza (great perimeter defender, 3PT shooter), Artest (great perimeter defender) are not better than Bron (best player in the league), Wade (top 3 SG--injured), Bosh (top 5 PF--injured)

:confusedshrug:


Lebron and Wade are 2 of the top players in the game.

Yeah, no they're not.

Kobe, CP3, Dwight, Durant, Lebron >>> Wade.


Bynum did not start dominating until he came back from his injuries

He was GREAT before and after injuries.

Look at his gamelog (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bynuman01/gamelog/2010/) from 2010 if you don't believe me. Dude was a double-double machine in 2010.


Keep "correcting" me, son. I'm done with you.

Yeah, you've already said that - except, I'm a realist; not a "Lebron fan". The problem with you is you wanna have your cake and eat it too. If Lebron needed "lots of help", then so did Kobe. According to your logic of course.

[ripthekik]

Thing is, you've got to realized the difference that star players bring to a team compared to "great" role players.

3 stars with decent roleplayers > 2 stars with good roleplayers.

Why? Because those star players will play a tremendous amount of time, it doesn't even matter if they have less quality role players. They only needed 2 more to fill up the team for heaven's sake. With 2 stars, the other team's defense can make them their focal point. They shoulder much more pressure and responsibility.

If we're going to talk about role players then we will have to start bringing in Haslem, Battier, Chalmers, who played excellently in the Finals.
(Before the finals? let me save you that argument, the competition was WEAK. They could put in Eddy Curry and still beat the Knicks)

The playoffs is about star power. Pacers had no chance because they didn't have an star that can lead them. Look at every single championship team. Stars are the core. Kobe had 1. Lebron had 2. End of story.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Thing is, you've got to realized the difference that star players bring to a team compared to "great" role players.

3 stars with decent roleplayers > 2 stars with good roleplayers.

Okay. Well that's where we disagree. I considered those Lakers role players GREAT mot "good" - and the Miami's role players (with the exception of the Finals) mediocre.

And again. Was Bosh an all-star this year? Did he play like one while he was injured and/or during the injury (where he missed games)? What about Wade? He averaged 23 on 46% shooting this postseason. How were his all-around numbers any BETTER than Gasol's?

[LA_Showtime]

I know people like to hate on Kobe fans, but if you follow this forum the only constant is that Jordan fans act like douche bags whenever a current NBA superstar achieves some type of success. :roll:

[mark]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.

I agree wholeheartedly, nothing could stop Michael from competing in Washington. He came through time in and time again with Rip Hamilton. He definitely dominated the game. He scored two points in Indiana. You are right every game including that one he wanted to compete.

[LA_Showtime]

I'll admit that I haven't read the entire thread, but anyone using Bynum as an example that the Lakers were stacked during the two-peat obviously didn't watch the Lakers very often.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'll admit that I haven't read the entire thread, but anyone using Bynum as an example that the Lakers were stacked during the two-peat obviously didn't watch the Lakers very often.

Anyone minimizing Bynum's impact to 'just 7ppg' is ignorant. In 2010, Bynum was a top 5 player at his position. That's an undeniable fact.

[ripthekik]

Anyone minimizing Bynum's impact to 'just 7ppg' is ignorant. In 2010, Bynum was a top 5 player at his position. That's an undeniable fact.

NBA 2010 Final Stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6608

Bynum 7 ppg, 5rpg
Was the 6th leading scorer and 4th rebounder on his team. Is this what you expected out of your 3rd star in the final series?
You making him into having even Bosh-type of impact is ridiculous.

Top 5?? Well with the quality of centers in 2010, it'll be hilarious to list out those peers in top 5.

[It's A VC3!!!]

it's ridiculous that for every superstar that comes into the league we keep spewing out the absurd famous quote, "he's not better then mj".

this is starting to get incredibly annoying and i wish that we would stop doing it. stop focusing on what a player isn't and what they actually do well at the game.

i hope that's what the youtube video was about though.:oldlol:

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Anyone minimizing Bynum's impact to 'just 7ppg' is ignorant. In 2010, Bynum was a top 5 player at his position. That's an undeniable fact.

If he was a top 5 player at his position it was beacuse the center position is full of guys that suck. In the playoffs and Finals Bynum wasn't able to give us much. He was getting his knee drained every 5 minutes and he wore that big ass brace. Bynum was often injured and very inconsistent even when healthy. He was a total afterthought in 09. 2010 he was a little better. Those titles were about Kobe and Pau.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

NBA 2010 Final Stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6608

Bynum 7 ppg, 5rpg
Was the 6th leading scorer and 4th rebounder on his team. Is this what you expected out of your 3rd star in the final series?
You making him into having even Bosh-type of impact is ridiculous.

Top 5?? Well with the quality of centers in 2010, it'll be hilarious to list out those peers in top 5.

Bogut, Lopez, Dwight, and Noah are all servicable bigs. I'd argue Bynum was better than all of them sans Dwight in 2010 (before injury).

What about his defense and the impact he had before the Finals? This is like you saying Bosh is a top 5 PF, but when I point out that he was injured (and not much of difference in those Pacers/Boston series'), you simply ignore that. :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

Bogut, Lopez, Dwight, and Noah are all servicable bigs. I'd argue Bynum was better than all of them sans Dwight in 2010 (before injury).

What about his defense and the impact he had before the Finals? This is like you saying Bosh is a top 5 PF, but when I point out that he was injured (and not much of difference in those Pacers/Boston series'), you simply ignore that. :confusedshrug:
Throw me the next 3 centers after that?

I've already said, Bosh being out proves that the Heat need him even more. Lebron and Wade went down to the Pacers. Then Wade started playing like 06, and got back to his top 3 player form. Did you see the way he zigzaged through the Pacer players? At that point Wade showed up so they got over the Pacers.

Next, Boston. Heat fell to the Celtics 3-2 without Bosh. Finally, Bron came out with his one amazing performance. I'll give you that. And Bosh came back for game 7 and walla, the rest is history.

Heat were down in 2 series because Bosh was out. Look at their record with him in, for this playoffs. That's his impact. The finals, where they needed him the most, he produced like a top PF was supposed to. Spread the floor and made shots, rebounded, hustled, and played D.

Bynum's impact was nowhere close to that.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Throw me the next 3 centers after that?

Why? I said he was in the top 5. Better than 3, when healthy, on that list. lol.


I've already said, Bosh being out proves that the Heat need him even more. Lebron and Wade went down to the Pacers. Then Wade started playing like 06, and got back to his top 3 player form. Did you see the way he zigzaged through the Pacer players? At that point Wade showed up so they got over the Pacers.

Simply put, Wade was Lebron's Pau. I agree.


Next, Boston. Heat fell to the Celtics 3-2 without Bosh. Finally, Bron came out with his one amazing performance. I'll give you that. And Bosh came back for game 7 and walla, the rest is history.

Right, it was Lebron with that amazing performance that turned that series around. We all know Bosh is important to Miami. The way they're built is top heavy. It's not like the Lakers with "2 allstars and good role players."


Heat were down in 2 series because Bosh was out. Look at their record with him in, for this playoffs.That's his impact.

I'm not saying Bosh isn't important. I dont think they win it all without him. On the flipside, I dont think LA beats Boston in 2010 without Bynum...or Artest.

Bynum:

Game 2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006060LAL.html): 21pts/6reb
Game 1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006030LAL.html): 10pts/6reb/7blks
Game 3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201006080BOS.html): 9pts/10reb/1blks

And what about Ron? His game 7 performance and defense on Pierce was crucial.


The finals, where they needed him the most, he produced like a top PF was supposed to. Spread the floor and made shots, rebounded, hustled, and played D.

Just like Artest and Bynum played in 2010 to help Bryant.

[Glide2keva]

The 6 rings are important and not important at the same time. They're not important because you're stupid if you judge talent and impact solely by counting rings.

They are important because we've seen MJ come through time and time again. We've seen him dominate the game no matter who they were playing or what their motivation was. It's hard to win the first ring and even harder to win the next ones. We've seen him make up slights just to stay motivated and fight off complacency. We've heard about him challenging his team to practice hard even after winning titles. Every game he wanted to prove he was the best basketball player in the world playing on the best basketball team. Once he started winning, we saw him suit up the first game of the season and end it by winning a title six straight times.

Nothing seemed to stop him from winning. Jammed toe in the 91 Finals. He scored 46 points on a sprained ankle against Portland in a key Finals game the next year. Sprained wrist the next year. The Jordan Rules controversy. Gambling controversy. Stomach flu in 97. Increased pressure to match his unbelievable hype year after year. Injuries to key teammates like Pippen and Harper. Suspensions by Rodman. He kept winning. He wanted his 6th ring more than some guys wanted their first.

That's why 6 rings matters. Not just because it's 6, but because they symbolize what I just said above. It takes a lot to win one title, even more to win multiple, but to do what we saw MJ do would require so much mental strength, desire, fortitude, discipline and leadership.

Somebody can show the same winning 3 or 4. And somebody can win 7 or 8 and still not show it. So the number SIX isn't really important. That's just how many MJ won. You notice Magic said Kobe was nowhere close to MJ even though Kobe won 5 titles himself. Clearly Magic isn't ring counting either. He's talking about something else that Jon Barry completely doesn't get.
:applause:

[dunksby]

Bogut, Lopez, Dwight, and Noah are all servicable bigs. I'd argue Bynum was better than all of them sans Dwight in 2010 (before injury).

What about his defense and the impact he had before the Finals? This is like you saying Bosh is a top 5 PF, but when I point out that he was injured (and not much of difference in those Pacers/Boston series'), you simply ignore that. :confusedshrug:
Dwight is a servicable big? :eek:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dwight is a servicable big? :eek:

Hey man, I'm not the guy who called today's centers a joke (even though they are :oldlol:).

Just to clear up any confusion, Dwight is definitely better than 'serviceable'.

[schism206]

Throw me the next 3 centers after that?

I've already said, Bosh being out proves that the Heat need him even more. Lebron and Wade went down to the Pacers. Then Wade started playing like 06, and got back to his top 3 player form. Did you see the way he zigzaged through the Pacer players? At that point Wade showed up so they got over the Pacers.

Next, Boston. Heat fell to the Celtics 3-2 without Bosh. Finally, Bron came out with his one amazing performance. I'll give you that. And Bosh came back for game 7 and walla, the rest is history.

Heat were down in 2 series because Bosh was out. Look at their record with him in, for this playoffs. That's his impact. The finals, where they needed him the most, he produced like a top PF was supposed to. Spread the floor and made shots, rebounded, hustled, and played D.

Bynum's impact was nowhere close to that.
:applause:

[LA_Showtime]

Anyone minimizing Bynum's impact to 'just 7ppg' is ignorant. In 2010, Bynum was a top 5 player at his position. That's an undeniable fact.

When healthy. Bynum played on one leg and did little to impact games during the playoffs. We won that year because Kobe and Gasol played out of their minds.

[schism206]

Even though Magic takes forever to say things, and repeats himself a lot... I gotta side with the opinion of one of the all-time greats who played many times against Jordan. Barry is just getting caught up in the moment.

When anyone wins a title, the best player on that team gets super-hyped. Dirk last year was getting a bunch of top 20-50 talk he never really got before, and I haven't heard much about that this year. Kobe got the "better than Jordan" hype when the Lakers won, now it's pretty much not debated and accepted that he's not (and won't be) in Jordan territory. Even Durant was getting the "better than Lebron" hype up until the Finals.

What I think it boils down to is, EVERY SINGLE FINALS Michael Jordan has been in, he has won, and won MVP. And that happened 6 times. 2 of those 6, 3 times in a row. It's pretty damn hard to repeat that many times in a row, and still have the drive and motivation to get back and do it again, regardless of how "stacked" your team is. I don't take a lot of stock in Kobe had a better cast, or Lebron didn't have enough BS. There is "some" truth there, but it's maximizing the potential of what you have, and being a leader. I know "what if's" don't hold much weight, but the "what if" Michael didn't retire the first time is a pretty big one. If I were a betting man, I'd bank it that Jordan would have won at LEAST 1 more ring. Kobe and Lebron have now had some pretty good/great finals performances, but they haven't had that every time they've been there.

Lets see how hungry Lebron is next year, and see how his game ages. He looks invincible now, in terms of avoiding injuries and such. But once he hits 30, he might have to start adapting his game. Jordan did this, and his post game became unstoppable. I can't remember how many times I saw him post up just outside the free throw line, do a few fakes and hit that fadaway jumper. There was no stopping that, at all.

I'm not saying Lebron doesn't have the potential to be in the discussion for greatest or top 5 all time, but I think he's quite a ways away from being in that discussion for GOAT with real credibility.

[G-train]

No one is close to Michael - yet.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

What if Lebron gets all complacent like Shaq and shows up to camp 50 pounds overweight. Totally lets it go to his head. lol

[rmt]

Jon Barry is an idiot. He must have forgotten all the criticism in the past that Lebron got for not taking the last shot, passing the ball. MJ was never shy about taking the shot or being clutch. Disgusting - people are so what have you done lately. Magic is right - Lebron, Kobe and Durant are nowhere close to MJ. In comparison to the great big men, at least there is an argument because of their importance to the defense.

[schism206]

Jon Barry is an idiot. He must have forgotten all the criticism in the past that Lebron got for not taking the last shot, passing the ball. MJ was never shy about taking the shot or being clutch. Disgusting - people are so what have you done lately. Magic is right - Lebron, Kobe and Durant are nowhere close to MJ. In comparison to the great big men, at least there is an argument because of their importance to the defense.
:cheers:

[The Iron Fist]

NBA 2010 Final Stats
http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=6608

Bynum 7 ppg, 5rpg
Was the 6th leading scorer and 4th rebounder on his team. Is this what you expected out of your 3rd star in the final series?
You making him into having even Bosh-type of impact is ridiculous.

Top 5?? Well with the quality of centers in 2010, it'll be hilarious to list out those peers in top 5.
Name the top ten centers so you can see how ridiculous the top five is.

[unknowns8]

That's really sad. Jordan must be a lonely guy.

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol