So what exactly separates Isiah Thomas from Dwyane Wade?

[jrong]

We have two Chicago ballers. Thomas had a thirteen year career; Wade just finished his ninth. Let's go the tale of the tape (warning: exhaustive and in-depth):

Career Averages

Thomas: 19.2 pts, 3.6 rebs, 1.0 o-rebs, 9.3 asts, 3.8 tovs, 1.9 stls, .3 blks, 45.2% FGs, 29% 3FGs, 75.9% FTs

Wade: 25.2 pts, 5.1 rebs, 1.3 o-rebs, 6.2 asts, 3.5 tovs, 1.8 stls, 1.0 blks, 48.6% FGs, 29.1% 3FGs, 77% FTs

Career Playoffs

Thomas (9 seasons, 111 games): 20.4 pts, 4.7 rebs, 1.2 o-rebs, 8.9 asts, 3.3 tovs, 2.1 stls, .3 blks, 44.1% FGs, 34.6% 3FGs, 76.9% FTs

Wade (8 seasons, 110 games): 25.2 pts, 5.6 rebs, 1.4 o-rebs, 5.3 asts, 3.7 tovs, 1.7 stls, 1.1 blks, 47.8% FGs, 32.2% 3FGs, 77.9% FTs

Career Advanced Stats

Thomas: PER 18.1; WS/48 .109; TS 51.6%; ORtg 106; DRtg: 107

Wade: PER 25.7; WS/48 .196; TS: 56.6%; ORtg 111; DRtg: 103

Playoffs Advanced Stats

Thomas: PER 19.8; WS/48 .143; TS 52%; ORtg 110; DRtg: 105

Wade: PER 24.1; WS/48 .182; TS 56.1%; ORtg 109; DRtg: 102

Achievements

Thomas: Finalist (3), Champion (2); FMVP (1); All NBA 1st (3), 2nd (2); Assist Leader (1); All-Star (12/13)

Wade: Finalist (3), Champion (2); FMVP (1); All NBA 1st (2); 2nd (3); 3rd (2), All Defense 2nd (3); Scoring Leader (1); All-Star (8/9)

Notes and Observations

* Wade, like all players, will see his averages decrease over time; however, he's already played only four fewer seasons than Thomas's total.

* Thomas's 3 pt%, like all players from that era, is likely inflated due to the "line-shortened years."

* I included offensive rebounds because, in my opinion, it's more of a "height-neutral" way to compare rebounders (for example, did you know Wade's 1.3 o-reb average bests LeBron's (1.2)?). And, as the totals show, Thomas is probably a better rebounder than his 3.6 career average suggests. But, the rebounding category overall still tilts to Wade.

* I used WS/48 as one my advanced metrics due to those who decry PER. Plain-old WS, as I understand it is based on an 82 game season, which obviously not all players play. WS/48 at least tries to normalize the stat, based on per 48 minutes.

* I don't like voting-based awards as a criteria due to the inherent subjectivity of the process, but for what they're worth, there they are above, for both players.

* I also don't like career averages that much as a comparator because players' roles and minutes vary at different points in their career (is it really fair to penalize Kobe's scoring average because he was Eddie Jones's 8 ppg backup as a rookie?). But, seeing as Wade is approaching Thomas's total years and has had more injury-affected years, it's probably a sufficient gauge.

* Both Thomas and Wade were their team's best player in two out of three Finals, ending in one victory and one defeat each.

* Thomas was more or less perceived as his team's #1 through his whole career, though he didn't always lead in scoring.

* Wade's trajectory is more complicated. In 03, I'd call him a 1abcd (ensemble cast), though he took over in the playoffs. In 04, he was 1ab during the season (Wade 24/5/7; Shaq 23/11) and #1 in the playoffs (Wade 27/6/7; Shaq 19/8). In 06, he was inarguably #1 (season: Wade 27/6/7, Shaq 20/9; playoffs: Wade 28/6/6, Shaq 18/10) and remained #1 through 2010. In 2011, he became 1b in the season (James 27/8/7, Wade 26/6/5) and the overall 1a during the playoffs (Wade 25/7/4; James 24/8/6). In 2012, he became a clear #2.

* Thomas led better teams on average, but then again I'm sure 09 and 10 Wade would've loved to play with the likes of Joe Dumars, Dennis Rodman, Adrian Dantley, Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, John Salley, Rick Mahorn, and Bill Laimbeer.

* Sadly obligatory-- re: common 2006 objections-- 1) Shaq Finals +/-: -36, worst on team (thus notion that Shaq doubled freed Wade to score at will is total fallacy; 2) FTs-- In DAL/SAS series, Dirk had games of 25 and 24 FTs each, and Duncan had a 23 FT game. That's just how fouls were called in 2006. Let the dog die.

* Overall comparison: (via the numbers above) scoring, rebounding, defense and efficiency clearly go to Wade. Passing obviously goes to Thomas, and I'm inclined to say he was a better jumpshooter, though evidently not from 3. Handles can't be measured, but while Wade is elite, Thomas and CP3 are in contention for the best dribbler ever title. Wade seems to have more total offensive impact in the season, while Thomas just edges him in that category in the playoffs.

Conclusion

I'm not going to definitively say that Wade is better than Zeke was, though the evidence seems to lean that way. But, if you're gonna make the claim that Isiah was clearly better, based on anything other than just the fact that you think so, then, as the breakdown above shows, you've got some work in front of you....

And, to put this in some perspective, many people believe Isiah was a top 20 player. Yet, some are loathe to acknowledge Wade as top 30 or even top 40. What I've demonstrated is that, regardless of how much those ones of you don't like him, you are in need of a serious reality check as to where Dwyane Wade stands in history.

[Legends66NBA7]

I have Dwyane Wade over Isiah Thomas. Zeke definitely gets underrated IMO, but I think Wade's just the better player.

Wade's a Top 6 guard (includes PG's and SG's) of all-time, Imo.

jrong, different eras here, but what about comparison with Dwyane Wade vs Jerry West and Oscar Robertson ?

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

well, one is a true PG and the other is a SG.
that's separates them quite a bit.
Thus, comparing their stats doesn't help, as they had different roles.

[jrong]

I have Dwyane Wade over Isiah Thomas. Zeke definitely gets underrated IMO, but I think Wade's just the better player.

Wade's a Top 6 guard (includes PG's and SG's) of all-time, Imo.

jrong, difference eras here, but what about compariosn with Dwyane Wade vs Jerry West and Oscar Robertson ?

I can't in good conscience put Wade above either of them yet. Based on the pace-factor in the 60s, I would say Wade is more dominant within the frame of an individual game (when playing as lead option) and thus technically meets the definition of being "better" than West. And, as for the Big O, I've heard some questions raised as to how much impact his statistical accumulation had on actual winning.

But, at this point, Wade hasn't done enough that I'm comfortable ranking him above either of them all-time.


well, one is a true PG and the other is a SG.
that's separates them quite a bit.
Thus, comparing their stats doesn't help, as they had different roles.

That's why my comparison is so exhaustive and considers many, many facets.

[tastystaci]

What separates isiah from wade?

Common sense

[Kobe 4 The Win]

well, one is a true PG and the other is a SG.
that's seperates them quite a bit.
Thus, comparing their stats doesn't help, as they had different roles.

This is something that continually gets ignored in ISH. It's very important to their individual stats as well as the team's success. It's also really hard to compare guys that play different positions. That's why I have a hard time concluding that Jordan is the absolute GOAT.

[jrong]

What separates isiah from wade?

Common sense

And praytell, how does your "common sense" supersede my rational analysis, backed up by hard data?

Oh that's right, I addressed people like you in my second to last paragraph, I said that unless your only rationale for thinking Thomas clearly better is "that you think so," then you have some work to do to refute the evidence I present.

And to that you respond, in effect, "he's better because I think so," or "because my 'common sense' tells me to think so."

So what you're admitting is you're too stubborn, lazy, biased, anti-intellectual, or all of the above to offer anything more substantive in response.

Or, in other words, your thoughts are worthless.

[spacebump]

Isiah Thomas>D Wade

intangibles matter

[Bladers]

Stop it Jrong. Just stop it.

Wade got carried to the title.

Really he was carried. We got a guy averaging 6 points on 30% shooting in the first half of the playoffs.

That's ridiculous. Lebron needs his back professionally examined.

[jrong]

Isiah Thomas>D Wade

intangibles matter

And the intangibles in question would be?

Love how nobody has any actual responses to the information I cite or is citing any counter-evidence. I called it in my original post. It's just, "because I think so...."

[StateOfMind12]

Nothing, anyone who says Isiah is better than Wade or ranked above Wade in the historic list knows nothing about basketball. Isiah is one of the most overrated players in NBA history.

Wade is top 25-27 for me while Isiah is probably top 30-35.

[DonDadda59]

You can make a valid case for either guy, but you have to remember each guy played a different role for his respective team. Wade is a SG, Thomas was a PG so obviously the former will have better scoring #s and the latter more assists.

[longtime lurker]

Let's see the fact that Isiah led his team to back to back championships as the best player. Not to mention the competition he defeated along the way. He ran through Jordan's Bulls, Celtics and Lakers without the aid of then hall of fame player. Isiah gets criminally underrated due to the fact and I think that it has less to do with his playing career and everything to do with how he ran the Knicks.

[jrong]

Let's see the fact that Isiah led his team to back to back championships as the best player. Not to mention the competition he defeated along the way. He ran through Jordan's Bulls, Celtics and Lakers without the aid of then hall of fame player. Isiah gets criminally underrated due to the fact and I think that it has less to do with his playing career and everything to do with how he ran the Knicks.

So that's enough then to trump all the numbers above that lean in the other direction? The fact that he and Joe Dumars (who was FMVP for the first title), Dennis Rodman, Mark Aguirre, Vinnie Johnson, James Edwards, Spider Salley, Rick Mahorn, and Bill Laimbeer (while being coached by Chuck Daley) beat the aging Celtics; Jordan when Pippen and Grant were still young pups; and the Lakers without Scott or Worthy; and then the next year the Blazers? That's all it takes for you?

[Sarcastic]

Isiah never played with anyone remotely close to Shaq nor Lebron's level. If he had, I think he would have won many more titles.

If Wade doesn't play with those 2 guys, he likely has 0 rings and this is not even a discussion.

[StateOfMind12]

Isiah never played with anyone remotely close to Shaq nor Lebron's level. If he had, I think he would have won many more titles.

If Wade doesn't play with those 2 guys, he likely has 0 rings and this is not even a discussion.
You could say the same with the type of players Isiah played with. The truth is that Wade was just a flat out better individual player than Isiah was.

[Owl]

* Thomas's 3 pt%, like all players from that era, is likely inflated due to the "line-shortened years."
Thomas never played with the shortened line. It doesn't really matter though, his 3 point percentage (like Wade's) is horrible enough on its own.


[QUOTE=jrong]* I included offensive rebounds because, in my opinion, it's more of a "height-neutral" way to compare rebounders (for example, did you know Wade's 1.3 o-reb average bests LeBron's (1.2)?). And, as the totals show, Thomas is probably a better rebounder than his 3.6 career average suggests. But, the rebounding category overall still tilts to Wade.
I have no idea what this means. I don't know what height neutral rebounding is or what value their is to height neutral rebounding measurements as height is a (small) factor in rebounding. In any case height never stopped Barkley, Rodman, Fortson, Evans or Faried from rebounding, so why you would argue rebounding should be adjusted for "height-neutrality" I don't know.

Rebound % would probably give an edge to Wade though as he has played in a slower era than the high paced 80's.

Anyway I'd agree with the general argument for Wade over Thomas, but in a way that says Thomas shouldn't be near the top 20 rather than that Wade should (though peak Wade would have to be considered for top 20 peaks) in the top 20.

Thomas was a shot creator but one with a risk of "mistakes" in so far as his shooting %s (very poor for era) and turnovers (inflated by high pace and high usage, but still less than ideal). The lack of elite guards (especially scoring guards) for the first half of the 80s got him a lot of accolades (1st team All-NBA) but his numbers suggest he was no better than a number of quality pgs who split accolades a decade later (Price, KJ, Hardaway).

He was the established "star" on the Detroit teams that won, but was one of the weaker defenders on a team that won primarily through defense. Now Isiah added value as a shot creator, but his legacy seems to be based on those title wins, and those titles were the result of a great ensemble and defense (a la '04 Pistons) not a leading star.

[Sarcastic]

You could say the same with the type of players Isiah played with. The truth is that Wade was just a flat out better individual player than Isiah was.

What type is that? No one on the Pistons was top 20 all time, let alone top 10 all time, which Shaq and Lebron (soon to be) are. Those guys on the Pistons were glorified role players. They aren't the type of players that you can just give the ball to, and say "go win me the game".

[StateOfMind12]

What type is that? No one on the Pistons was top 20 all time, let alone top 10 all time, which Shaq and Lebron (soon to be) are. Those guys on the Pistons were glorified role players. They aren't the type of players that you can just give the ball to, and say "go win me the game".
Nobody on the Heat was like that anymore in 2006. Shaq wasn't that great of a player anymore.

[jrong]

I have no idea what this means. I don't know what height neutral rebounding is or what value their is to height neutral rebounding measurements as height is a (small) factor in rebounding. In any case height never stopped Barkley, Rodman, Fortson, Evans or Faried from rebounding, so why you would argue rebounding should be adjusted for "height-neutrality" I don't know.

Frontcourt players are more often closer to the basket on defense, and by that fact, in addition to their height and wingspan, have more of an advantage when it comes to defensive boards. Offensive rebounds still favor taller players, but I think they are a better reflection of a player's true rebounding ability because guards (who are generally further away from the basket on the average defensive possession, not to mention shorter) are more likely to crash the offensive boards than the defensive boards, if they have that ability. That's why I said o-boards were more height-neutral (but still obviously not completely height-neutral).

[tastystaci]

And praytell, how does your "common sense" supersede my rational analysis, backed up by hard data?

Oh that's right, I addressed people like you in my second to last paragraph, I said that unless your only rationale for thinking Thomas clearly better is "that you think so," then you have some work to do to refute the evidence I present.

And to that you respond, in effect, "he's better because I think so," or "because my 'common sense' tells me to think so."

So what you're admitting is you're too stubborn, lazy, biased, anti-intellectual, or all of the above to offer anything more substantive in response.

Or, in other words, your thoughts are worthless.

Common sense would tell you that Isiah never had a dominate big man(Wade had Shaq), or an all-time great(Lebron).

Isiah was a PG, Dwade was a SG(completely different roles)

Isiah had heart. Was gritty as f*ck. He scored 24 in a quarter in the 88' Finals with a broken f*ckin ankle! Wade flops like a wet fish. Gets whistles like no man's business. Isiah didn't win his finals MVP having to go to the line 18+ times a game(Wade did. 18.25 ft's per game in his four final wins back in '06)

Last, but not least. Isiah played against some of the greatest teams in NBA history. Do you realize that the Pistons knocked Jordans Bulls out of the playoffs three straight years(88-90). What was there reward for beating Jordans bulls? They got to play Larry's Celtics. Once they got by the Celtics, what was they're reward? Magic Johnson's Lakers. Are you f*cking kidding me. Do you think Wade is getting the Heat through that gauntlet? I'll answer my own question.

F*ck NO!

[Sarcastic]

Nobody on the Heat was like that anymore in 2006. Shaq wasn't that great of a player anymore.

Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting in 2005. Only reason his stats dropped, was that he gave the ball up to Wade more in 2006. He had the same presence in 2006, and teams had to double him in the post, which freed up Wade.

[longtime lurker]

Nobody on the Heat was like that anymore in 2006. Shaq wasn't that great of a player anymore.

LMAO the 2006 Heat were a pretty stacked team. They had Antoine Walker, Alonzo Morning and Gary Payton coming off the bench!!!

[Roc Nation]

Wade is a much better player than Thomas. :oldlol: @ everyone acting like the Bad Boy Pistons was a one man show

[jrong]

Shaq was 2nd in MVP voting in 2005. Only reason his stats dropped, was that he gave the ball up to Wade more in 2006. He had the same presence in 2006, and teams had to double him in the post, which freed up Wade.

I already debunked that. Shaq's +/- was -36 in the 2006 Finals, worst on the team. Mourning, whose +/- was even better than Wade's, was easily the Heat's most effective center in the series. Shaq was outscored by Antoine Walker.


Those guys on the Pistons were glorified role players. They aren't the type of players that you can just give the ball to, and say "go win me the game".

Dumars did a pretty good job of winning the '89 Finals, to the tune of 27 ppg. He also flat-out won one of the four games against the Blazers, the one right after his dad died.



LMAO the 2006 Heat were a pretty stacked team. They had Antoine Walker, Alonzo Morning and Gary Payton coming off the bench!!!

Those guys were on their last legs. The Heat didn't even bring back Payton back in 07. I think he scored 4 pts the entire series (though both were huge buckets). Walker was gone a year later. Jason Wiliams too. Zo forced into retirement soon after (although as I acknowledged, Zo was better than Shaq in the 06 Finals).

[Sarcastic]

Wow you just used +/- to try to prove a point?

This thread is even more worthless than I originally thought.

[Roc Nation]

Wow you just used +/- to try to prove a point?

This thread is even more worthless than I originally thought.
you tried portraying the Pistons as a one man team :oldlol: :facepalm

[Day La Ghetto]

This thread disrespectful to wade.you should know better j.

[Owl]

Frontcourt players are more often closer to the basket on defense, and by that fact, in addition to their height and wingspan, have more of an advantage when it comes to defensive boards. Offensive rebounds still favor taller players, but I think they are a better reflection of a player's true rebounding ability because guards (who are generally further away from the basket on the average defensive possession, not to mention shorter) are more likely to crash the offensive boards than the defensive boards, if they have that ability. That's why I said o-boards were more height-neutral (but still obviously not completely height-neutral).
I'm still not sure what the virtue of having "height neutral" rebounding is because height is a (small) factor.

And surely offensive rebounds have a similar effect in terms of being decided by what your role is within the offense e.g. if you're a spot up shooter you'll never be near the basket, if you're a go to player their will usually be a player between you and the basket. Maybe to a slightly lesser degree but not a lot.

I understand (to a degree) POSITION (not height) based adjustments. E.g. Rajon Rondo, Darrell Walker, Ricky Rubio, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson were/are great rebounders for point guards.

In any case the idea of "true rebounding ability" outside of the context of the role you play makes no sense to me because if you weren't playing that role then all your other numbers would be different and you'd be a different player. You make adjustments for if a player is playing alongside a great rebounder, or on a great of poor rebounding team (e.g. David Robinson was, or was capable of being, a better rebounder than his number suggested when playing alongside Dennis Rodman) but that to me is the limit. Rather than singling out one (small) aspect of rebounding and saying that that suggests "true ability".

[Sarcastic]

you tried portraying the Pistons as a one man team :oldlol: :facepalm

No I didn't. I just said that none of Isiah's teammates were ever close to the level of 2006 Shaq or 2012 Lebron.

[Roc Nation]

No I didn't. I just said that none of Isiah's teammates were ever close to the level of 2006 Shaq or 2012 Lebron.
That is true but the 2006 Heat were inferior as a team to the Pistons

[Sarcastic]

That is true but the 2006 Heat were inferior as a team to the Pistons

Pistons were deeper, but depth doesn't usually win titles. Star power at the top of the roster does.

[jrong]

Wow you just used +/- to try to prove a point?

This thread is even more worthless than I originally thought.

Think about what you're saying. You said doubles on Shaq freed Wade up to score. Doesn't it follow then, that Wade would've been doing all that scoring while Shaq was on the floor, and Shaq would've had a pretty good +/-? At least not the worst of ANY Heat player?

Of course, +/- in a single game can be misleading, but over the course of a six-game run, it will settle into a pattern that is indicative of what is actually happening on the floor.

[Sarcastic]

Think about what you're saying. You said doubles on Shaq freed Wade up to score. Doesn't it follow then, that Wade would've been doing all that scoring while Shaq was on the floor, and Shaq would've had a pretty good +/-? At least not the worst of ANY Heat player?

Of course, +/- in a single game can be misleading, but over the course of a six-game run, it will settle into a pattern that is indicative of what is actually happening on the floor.

It's a completely misleading stat, and shouldn't be used for what you are trying to prove.

Example: for most of the year, Deron Williams had the worst +/- on the Nets. Does that mean he is the worst Net, and should be taken off the floor?

There were times this year when Landry Fields would go 0-2, 1 rebs, 0 asts, and then end up with like a +10. He didn't do a damn thing on the floor but still had a great +/- rating.

[Day La Ghetto]

Really been thinking lately how wade would be finals MVP x3 and champ x4 if it weren't for his injury in ECF game 5 2005 and lebrons meltdown 2011. In my mind that was as close to happening as you could get,just bad luck I guess.i think wed be arguing Kobe and wades career accomplishment if that happened and wade would have a more then solid case as 2nd best guard of all time instead of being automatically under Kobe at 3rd.

[Sarcastic]

Isiah Thomas had 4 straight seasons of 20/10. Go look up how many other point guards even have 1 season of 20/10, other than Magic Johnson. (It's a small list)


Put an all time great like Shaq next to Isiah in his prime, and he would have won many more titles than the 2 he has.

[Roc Nation]

Isiah Thomas had 4 straight seasons of 20/10. Go look up how many other point guards even have 1 season of 20/10, other than Magic Johnson. (It's a small list)


Put an all time great like Shaq next to Isiah in his prime, and he would have won many more titles than the 2 he has.
shaq was only good for about 2 seasons with wade. and in addition, replace isiah with wade, and the pistons win many more rings. Wade is just a better player. Not gonna compare stats over generations but he was more talented and could carry a team

[Owl]

It's a completely misleading stat, and shouldn't be used for what you are trying to prove.

Example: for most of the year, Deron Williams had the worst +/- on the Nets. Does that mean he is the worst Net, and should be taken off the floor?

There were times this year when Landry Fields would go 0-2, 1 rebs, 0 asts, and then end up with like a +10. He didn't do a damn thing on the floor but still had a great +/- rating.
He isn't trying to use +/- to rate players, he's using it against your notion that Wade went off because Shaq drew double teams. As in this post

You said doubles on Shaq freed Wade up to score. Doesn't it follow then, that Wade would've been doing all that scoring while Shaq was on the floor, and Shaq would've had a pretty good +/-? At least not the worst of ANY Heat player?
The point being made here is (as I read it anyway)
If Shaq was the cause of (or a major factor in) Wade's elite play, he'd have to have been on the court at the same time as it, that he wasn't would indicate that he wasn't.

Now there could be factors to mitigate this (if Shaq played extensively with scrub units, though then their +/- should be worse than his). But that's the argument being made.

In any case Shaq's double teams benefit jump shooters more than slashers like Wade. The most Shaq could do for a slasher is force centers to stay home on him rather than attempting a block on Wade's drives.

[jrong]

Really been thinking lately how wade would be finals MVP x3 and champ x4 if it weren't for his injury in ECF game 5 2005 and lebrons meltdown 2011. In my mind that was as close to happening as you could get,just bad luck I guess.i think wed be arguing Kobe and wades career accomplishment if that happened and wade would have a more then solid case as 2nd best guard of all time instead of being automatically under Kobe at 3rd.

Oh, now you're going to break me up with the great what-ifs of Wade's career. What if he hadn't gotten injured in 2005, and the Heat had beaten the Spurs, and he got his first FMVP in 05? Or what if he he hadn't gotten hurt in 07, when he was basically playing as well as he did in 09 (29/5/8 when he went out right after the all-star break), right when Shaq finally returned from his injury? History could've been completely different. We may have had a Dwyane Wade era.

And as far as 2011, Wade may have still been able to overcome LeBron's disintegration if Brian Cardinal hadn't taken him out in Game 5. But, yeah, he gets 5% more from James in that series, and it wouldn't have mattered. He'd at least be sitting on two FMVPs.


Isiah Thomas had 4 straight seasons of 20/10. Go look up how many other point guards even have 1 season of 20/10, other than Magic Johnson. (It's a small list)

Do you know how many all-time greats have career averages of at least 25 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asts, 1.5 stls, 1 blks, 48.5% shooting? I guess your answer would be "none" because Wade doesn't qualify as one for you, and he's the only one who has those stats. His numbers are all flukes, right?

[LamarOdom]

Isiah never played with anyone remotely close to Shaq nor Lebron's level. If he had, I think he would have won many more titles.

If Wade doesn't play with those 2 guys, he likely has 0 rings and this is not even a discussion.

This is just a stupid argument and always will.

[guy]

This is something that continually gets ignored in ISH. It's very important to their individual stats as well as the team's success. It's also really hard to compare guys that play different positions. That's why I have a hard time concluding that Jordan is the absolute GOAT.

Never understood this reasoning. Couldn't it just be that certain positions hold more value? Ignore stats. Wade's a better scorer, rebounder, and defender then Isiah regardless of position. The only reason at this point I would still put Isiah ahead of Wade is cause of durability. But at their best, Wade is better. You can definitely compare players that play different positions/roles. Some of the statistical difference could just be due to exact roles, but most of it is due to one playing a more valuable role.

[guy]

Oh, now you're going to break me up with the great what-ifs of Wade's career. What if he hadn't gotten injured in 2005, and the Heat had beaten the Spurs, and he got his first FMVP in 05? Or what if he he hadn't gotten hurt in 07, when he was basically playing as well as he did in 09 (29/5/8 when he went out right after the all-star break), right when Shaq finally returned from his injury? History could've been completely different. We may have had a Dwyane Wade era.

And as far as 2011, Wade may have still been able to overcome LeBron's disintegration if Brian Cardinal hadn't taken him out in Game 5. But, yeah, he gets 5% more from James in that series, and it wouldn't have mattered. He'd at least be sitting on two FMVPs.



Do you know how many all-time greats have career averages of at least 25 pts, 5 rebs, 6 asts, 1.5 stls, 1 blks, 48.5% shooting? I guess your answer would be "none" because Wade doesn't qualify as one for you, and he's the only one who has those stats. His numbers are all flukes, right?

Wade gets hurt all the time. Literally every playoff other then 06 some injury came up that had an effect on a series, game, or even one play for him. At some point, you can't just say its bad luck and just have to accept that thats who he is. So you can't just excuse him for 05 or any other year due to injury. Especially in 05 when there was a good chance they would've still lost in the Finals. In 2011 though, you can definitely blame Lebron for that one.

[ralph_i_el]

isiah didnt retire in his prime. Wade is still in his. Compare the stats through isiah's 9th year how bout?

[The Iron Fist]

I dont recall Zeke leading a team to 15 wins.

[Ikill]

I dont recall Zeke leading a team to 15 wins.
Wade was injured

[Ikill]

It's a completely misleading stat, and shouldn't be used for what you are trying to prove.

Example: for most of the year, Deron Williams had the worst +/- on the Nets. Does that mean he is the worst Net, and should be taken off the floor?

There were times this year when Landry Fields would go 0-2, 1 rebs, 0 asts, and then end up with like a +10. He didn't do a damn thing on the floor but still had a great +/- rating.
:facepalm did you read what he just wrote or not

[eurobum]

* Thomas's 3 pt%, like all players from that era, is likely inflated due to the "line-shortened years."


i thought this was gonna be a good, sober debate, but i see now, only 1/3 into your post, that you're a homer. did you even bother to do research, or did you just guess half of those "facts"?

line was shortened for the 1994-1995, 1995-1996 and 1996-1997 seasons. thomas retired in 1994.

[JtotheIzzo]

only youthful ignorance would put Wade over Isiah. Zeke led teams beat Bulls, Celtics, and Lakers teams during their dynasty era.

How anybody could put Wade over Thomas is beyond common sense.

[Cali Syndicate]

Jrong, as pointed above, when exactly do you think the 3pt line was shortened?

And Shaq in 06 was still a very viable player.

[The Iron Fist]

Wade was injured
And still played in over fifty games. That excuse doesnt work.


Lol 15 wins and you cats wanna compare this wheelchair riding pansy to a boss like Zeke?

[bdreason]

Wade is a great player, no doubt.


But I'll take Thomas without hesitating. It has nothing to do with stats, and everything to do with watching both players play the game.

[The_Yearning]

isiah didnt retire in his prime. Wade is still in his. Compare the stats through isiah's 9th year how bout?

Buddy. Wade stats are only going to go down from here. It's been going down ever since 2009.

[Smoke117]

I'd say the main fact that separates them is scoring. Isiah was a PG that is true, but he he was a pg that took a lot of shots...the only problem is, the damn guy just WASN'T EFFICIENT. Everyone likes to bring up the 80s and how it was more fast paced and easier to score...well apparently it wasn't for Isiah because the only damn time he was efficient for an entire season was in 86. You all want to say Isiah was a pg but the guy averaged 16.2 shot attempts a game for his career...so he liked to shoot obviously. He only averaged 19.2ppg for his career because he just plain wasn't an efficient scorer in general. He has had some big heroic moments, but you have to look at these things by their career.

Wade only averages two more shots for his career at 18.3, but he does that to 25.2ppg. There is a monstrous disparity as far as scoring efficiency between the players and it is relevant considering how much Isiah liked to shoot. Isiah has those heroic moments as I've said before, but the disparity in scoring is way too much too overcome. I'd also say Wade was the better defensive player too at that. It also doesn't help Isiah's case that Wade has been one of the better passers at SG throughout history and even was a pretty good facilitator when he had to be. It seems like a lot of people forget that Wade pretty much had to run the offense for the Heat for most of his career. He's been one of the most well rounded guards of all time.

[chips93]

Isiah dropping 33 and 19 on the celtics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbL2GVpbbsA)

[Ikill]

And still played in over fifty games. That excuse doesnt work.


Lol 15 wins and you cats wanna compare this wheelchair riding pansy to a boss like Zeke?
Wade was too injured to carry the team its not an excuse its a fact it really doesn't matter how many games he played in. You are clearly ignorant about Wade and the Heat in 2008 most were saying he was done. Wade was able to get even worse teams to the playoffs the next two years so he clearly had the ability to carry teams. Overall using that 15 win season against Wade is pointless