Detroit Trades Ben Gordon to Charlotte for Corey Maggette

[Fudge]

Detroit has traded Ben Gordon and a protected future first-round pick to Charlotte for Corey Maggette, league sources tell Y! Sports.
-Woj's Twitter

[Clippersfan86]

Weird.. Nobody gets better.

[Reverend Hoops]

Poor Maggette.

[shortsoptional]

Weird.. Nobody gets better.

Yea.. i'm guessing they give up the 1st because of the contract?

[IGotACoolStory]

Cavs-Bobcats trade more likely? 4th+# for 2nd

[Clippersfan86]

Yea.. i'm guessing they give up the 1st because of the contract?

Exactly why. Still a lateral move.. Maybe Charlotte clearing more SF spot for MKG?

[CLTHornets4eva]

I'll take a protected 1st :) I guess we're not going with Beal.

[CLTHornets4eva]

I don't know about that contract. We wont be good in 2013-14 I guess but that will be a big contract. :(

[Rake2204]

I don't know about that contract. We wont be good in 2013-14 I guess but that will be a big contract. :(
Yes, I am hopeful this trade goes through for that contract weighed heavily on my fanhood every day.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Good things that I don't see Detroit being good any time soon.

[Rake2204]

Good things that I don't see Detroit being good any time soon.
Why is that a good thing?

[Fudge]

Why is that a good thing?
The pick is protected I think. Not sure though.

[Rake2204]

The pick is protected I think. Not sure though.
Ohhh. Yes, I read the same thing. Is there a time limit on when Detroit must give that pick up?

[jbot]

the trade was bad enough but detroit thru in a 1st rounder?

[Rake2204]

the trade was bad enough but detroit thru in a 1st rounder?
It's a protected first rounder which I admit is still relatively risky. From what I've heard, it's lottery protected (though good things can still come about in picks 13+).

Either way, I'm not terribly upset by freeing up $15 million dollars. I know it doesn't mean it'll automatically be used to snatch up a franchise-changing superstar next summer, but it's a least slightly comforting to no longer have Ben Gordon's number raining down upon us until 2014.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Why is that a good thing?

Because its not fully protected in 2015 we could still get the second out of it. As long as you stay bad we will good pick out of it. Thanks :)

[Rake2204]

Because its not fully protected in 2015 we could still get the second out of it. As long as you stay bad we will good pick out of it. Thanks :)
Ohh, I was not aware of the details of the protection period. Could you link me to your reference? All my links seem so vague about the pick so far.

Anything can happen by 2015, but I like to think Detroit's on its way up. They played their last 40 games at .500 and there's some youth building and growing there. That said, I know how tough it can be to break out of mediocrity.

[obonpaxis]

Ben Gordon is just an older, shot-jackier, fatter-contractier version of Kemba.

Jordan doesn't want us to have a 2-guard that he can't still post up 1-on1 when he drops in on scrimmages.

We won't stop until our whole roster is filled with ex-UConn midgets.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Ohh, I was not aware of the details of the protection period. Could you link me to your reference? All my links seem so vague about the pick so far.

Anything can happen by 2015, but I like to think Detroit's on its way up. They played their last 40 games at .500 and there's some youth building and growing there. That said, I know how tough it can be to break out of mediocrity.

Lottery protected 2013
top 6 protected 2014
#1 protected 2015
Unprotected 2016
:rockon:

[Rake2204]

Lottery protected 2013
top 6 protected 2014
#1 protected 2015
Unprotected 2016
:rockon:
Thank you.

[wally_world]

Good for Ben Gordon. He needs a change of environment, and Charlotte could use his scoring. I think BG will be a 16-18ppg guy this season. With that being said, i think Charlotte will pick MKG with the #2 now, or maybe Drummond.

[El Kabong]

Not too bad. Gives them an extra #1 and a guy who can score. 1 extra year on the contract for the Bobcats isn't a big deal since they'll still suck for 2-3 more years until they can get the team rebuilt the way they want.

[hawkfan]

Not too bad. Gives them an extra #1 and a guy who can score. 1 extra year on the contract for the Bobcats isn't a big deal since they'll still suck for 2-3 more years until they can get the team rebuilt the way they want.

It would have been better just to let Maggette expire, or trade him for a younger player. Or even just buy him out.

The cap space would be good in terms of signing younger free agents.

But if the Bobcats draft well, then that draft pick can be invaluable.

Last year's draft didn't really show that - the jury is still out on Walker and Biyombo being full time starters in their career.

[wang4three]

Dumars and Jordan doing deals?

[DeuceWallaces]

Protected for three years and clearing space

[Rake2204]

Dumars and Jordan doing deals?
http://www.krakov.net/si/images/1989/1106_large.jpg

Fun fact: Joe Dumars has a son named Jordan, who was briefly a member of the University of Michigan basketball team, alongside Tim Hardaway's son and Al Horford's brother. Had Jordan Dumars not stepped away from the program due to knee issues, he likely would have also played alongside Glenn Robinson's son (Glenn Robinson, III).

[hawkfan]

Protected for three years and clearing space

For Detroit this is a great move.
Clears out cap space for next summer, so the Pistons can lock up their young players and go after free agents. I think they have a few more expirers next summer.

And they can still use the amnesty clause on one of their players, if necessary (CV, that means you).

[hawkfan]

Ben Gordon is just an older, shot-jackier, fatter-contractier version of Kemba.

Jordan doesn't want us to have a 2-guard that he can't still post up 1-on1 when he drops in on scrimmages.

We won't stop until our whole roster is filled with ex-UConn midgets.

Maybe Charlotte will buy him out, which means they would effectively pay the amount owed to Maggette but have a first round pick as well.

[kidachi]

Why the hell they threw in a 1st? :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[El Kabong]

It would have been better just to let Maggette expire, or trade him for a younger player. Or even just buy him out.

The cap space would be good in terms of signing younger free agents.

But if the Bobcats draft well, then that draft pick can be invaluable.

Last year's draft didn't really show that - the jury is still out on Walker and Biyombo being full time starters in their career.
For who? Capspace is all well and good, but who wants to go to the Bobcats? Jordan ain't paying anyone out either. They know what they want, which is picks and you weren't getting one for Maggette unless you're taking back someone elses garbage, which they are in a position to do.

[Eric Cartman]

Kemba and Gordon out there = smallest backcourt in the league.

[hawkfan]

For who? Capspace is all well and good, but who wants to go to the Bobcats? Jordan ain't paying anyone out either. They know what they want, which is picks and you weren't getting one for Maggette unless you're taking back someone elses garbage, which they are in a position to do.

Well they are trying to tank this season, so they get another high pick. So yea, this year they don't want to sign anyone good.

But I don't agree with that strategy. A couple of seasons of tanking damages a franchise long term.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Maybe Charlotte will buy him out, which means they would effectively pay the amount owed to Maggette but have a first round pick as well.

Charlotte was in jeopardy of not paying the minimum salary floor. They get a first in order to take a contract that allows them to hit it. No biggie for CLT + get a high first. Good move.

[El Kabong]

Charlotte was in jeopardy of not paying the minimum salary floor. They get a first in order to take a contract that allows them to hit it. No biggie for CLT + get a high first. Good move.
I remember when the Jazz had that in 2003 or 2004. Traded for Gugliottas big contract and got a 1st for their troubles.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Possible that Charlotte has top 5 (their own) +Portland and Detroits's first next year. Giving themselves chances. Great rebuild strategy.

[boozehound]

Protected for three years and clearing space
saw a funny-ish tweet on pistons powered to the effect of "last time joe D had cap space, he set the franchise back five years" (BG and CV massive money, moving afflalo for space to sign wilcox IIRC). made me laugh and sad at the same time

[CLTHornets4eva]

Well they are trying to tank this season, so they get another high pick. So yea, this year they don't want to sign anyone good.

But I don't agree with that strategy. A couple of seasons of tanking damages a franchise long term.
No. Only a series of bad draft picks hurt a team long term.

[StateOfMind12]

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/255298_472004549494741_1172718837_n.jpg

[dd24]

This whole thing was kind of weird. I really don't like that Detroit threw in a future first rounder. BG is the better player of the deal. Charlotte will be a good place for him since they need a SG and someone who can score, but it also gives them a really small back court. I really don't see how Maggette fits into Detroit's lineup, unless he's going to play some backup SG. He's always been more of a SF though. Really all this does is give Detroit an opportunity to go after a different FA, which isn't necessarily a good thing. Detroit isn't a destination that top tier FA's are attracted to. They really needed to build through the draft. That's why I hate giving up that pick.

[spiegel]

Maggaete and Stuckey will draw a ton of fouls as they are big and strong.

[ukballer]

I like it for Charlotte. Agree with an earlier post, it is a more of a lateral move, but either way, I'd rather have Ben Gordon on my team than Corey. Too many times in the season we needed some sort of shot maker and couldn't buy a bucket in crunch time. We'd stay in the game for 4 and a half quarters and then our shot making abilities would just disappear.

I think BG might thrive in this environment. This is not to say it's going to help or hinder the team, but he's gonna get his shots now. He's clutch when he wants to be too, hence why down the stretch I'd be happy to see him playing instead of Maggette front rimming another fadeaway shot.

Any picks are welcome too, protected or not.

[hawkfan]

No. Only a series of bad draft picks hurt a team long term.

You mean like Adam Morrison over Rudy Gay?

If Gay had been in that nucleus with Chandler, Felton, Wallace, Jackson, that team would have been a real serious contender in the Eastern Conference.

One bad draft pick can screw up a franchise for years.

[hawkfan]

I like it for Charlotte. Agree with an earlier post, it is a more of a lateral move, but either way, I'd rather have Ben Gordon on my team than Corey. Too many times in the season we needed some sort of shot maker and couldn't buy a bucket in crunch time. We'd stay in the game for 4 and a half quarters and then our shot making abilities would just disappear.

I think BG might thrive in this environment. This is not to say it's going to help or hinder the team, but he's gonna get his shots now. He's clutch when he wants to be too, hence why down the stretch I'd be happy to see him playing instead of Maggette front rimming another fadeaway shot.

Any picks are welcome too, protected or not.

Depends on if he wants to stay there. He might make noise about getting bought out or wanting to get traded.

The pick is definitely a positive, no question about that.

Maybe we will see this:

Hornets get

Ben Gordon

Charlotte gets

Rashard Lewis (can be bought out for 11.5 million)

The Hornets get Gordon to provide some offense, while Charlotte gets cap space for next season and rids itself of talent so Charlotte can tank this year and get another high draft pick.

[spiegel]

I like it for Charlotte. Agree with an earlier post, it is a more of a lateral move, but either way, I'd rather have Ben Gordon on my team than Corey. Too many times in the season we needed some sort of shot maker and couldn't buy a bucket in crunch time. We'd stay in the game for 4 and a half quarters and then our shot making abilities would just disappear.

I think BG might thrive in this environment. This is not to say it's going to help or hinder the team, but he's gonna get his shots now. He's clutch when he wants to be too, hence why down the stretch I'd be happy to see him playing instead of Maggette front rimming another fadeaway shot.

Any picks are welcome too, protected or not.
When Stuckey was out Gordon was beasting which included a 40 plus game against Denver.

[ukballer]

Depends on if he wants to stay there. He might make noise about getting bought out or wanting to get traded.

The pick is definitely a positive, no question about that.

Maybe we will see this:

Hornets get

Ben Gordon

Charlotte gets

Rashard Lewis (can be bought out for 11.5 million)

The Hornets get Gordon to provide some offense, while Charlotte gets cap space for next season and rids itself of talent so Charlotte can tank this year and get another high draft pick.

Hopefully he embraces and understands that Charlotte is probably the best, and only place where he will be trusted to play a fairly significant role.

Hell, if he's so worried about getting a good future deal, Charlotte is the perfect place to stat pad. :D

[hawkfan]

Hopefully he embraces and understands that Charlotte is probably the best, and only place where he will be trusted to play a fairly significant role.

Hell, if he's so worried about getting a good future deal, Charlotte is the perfect place to stat pad. :D

But maybe Jordan and Cho want to tank again and get a top 4 pick, instead of winning and getting something in the 5-8 range.

That's another consideration.

[ukballer]

But maybe Jordan and Cho want to tank again and get a top 4 pick, instead of winning and getting something in the 5-8 range.

That's another consideration.

I highly doubt we'll be within touching distance of a playoff spot next season. We've still got a bad, bad roster. I'd anticipate we'll end up with a top 5-6 pick for the 2013 draft anyway, unless we make blockbuster trades which is extremely unlikely.


When Stuckey was out Gordon was beasting which included a 40 plus game against Denver.

Yup, he can have some monster games. I'll never forget some of the shots he made against the Celtics back in 09 during the Playoffs. 42 points in Game 2.

I'm excited to at least see if he can spice up our offense a bit. We need something. :lol

[El Kabong]

Hopefully he embraces and understands that Charlotte is probably the best, and only place where he will be trusted to play a fairly significant role.

Hell, if he's so worried about getting a good future deal, Charlotte is the perfect place to stat pad. :D
I was gonna say, you'd think he might actually like it since he's going from a team where his minutes and play was inconsistent to a team where he'll probably get 35+ minutes a night and he'll be able to jack up all the shots he wants.

As for Charlotte making bad draft picks, i'd say the chances of that happening would be lowered somewhat with Rich Cho running things rather than MJ, who never seemed to want to put in the time or effort it takes to run a team properly from GM perspective.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Depends on if he wants to stay there. He might make noise about getting bought out or wanting to get traded.

The pick is definitely a positive, no question about that.

Maybe we will see this:

Hornets get

Ben Gordon

Charlotte gets

Rashard Lewis (can be bought out for 11.5 million)

The Hornets get Gordon to provide some offense, while Charlotte gets cap space for next season and rids itself of talent so Charlotte can tank this year and get another high draft pick.

There goes Hawkfan, another bad trade. :facepalm

New Orleans is trying to (and will) sign the better Gordon. They just got rid of bad contracts. They can amnesty Lewis. Why would they add another overpaid player?


Nobody mentions that for Charlotte that they can build value with Gordon. His contract actually becomes a help in a year or two, as he can become an expirer who someone will want to trade for. Plus he's 29 and can put up gaudy numbers for the Cats. Next year someone might be dumb enough to trade for him if were looking to draft a long term shooter.

[Rake2204]

Nobody mentions that for Charlotte that they can build value with Gordon. His contract actually becomes a help in a year or two, as he can become an expirer who someone will want to trade for. Plus he's 29 and can put up gaudy numbers for the Cats. Next year someone might be dumb enough to trade for him if were looking to draft a long term shooter.
I know this is an obvious statement to make, but I think it's all going to depend upon Ben Gordon's performance. There's probably not a lot of folks looking at him as a valuable trade asset right now because for the last three years he's been a 12ppg scorer on 43% shooting while making $12 million a year. If team's are looking for long range threats, my bet is there's likely a number of more affordable options.

However, if Gordon is able to re-capture his form, things could get really interesting. Though again, I think folks will always be wondering in the back of their minds whether they'd be acquiring Chicago/Charlotte Ben or Detroit Ben (not to mention the end of his contract will take him up to his 30th birthday).

Either way, it's nice to see Ben Gordon escape a situation that was so clearly not a good one for him.

[MiseryCityTexas]

maggette is in the twighlight end of his career.

[Mr Exlax]

maggette is in the twighlight end of his career.

Man I used to think this guy was gonna be a great player. I was waaaaaaaay off lol.

[rufuspaul]

Good move for both teams. The cats are looking for draft picks above all else. Next season we'll have a lottery pick plus Portland's pick from the Gerald Wallace trade. Plus Diop and Carroll come off the books and Tyrus Thomas or Gordon can be amnestied. In 2014 or 2015 the pick that came with Gordon could result in a very good player.

Maggette was essentially worthless last season and only played in half of the games. It leaves us without a starting SF which makes me think we're gonna take MKG or Barnes in the draft and sign a FA like Antawn Jamison.

[Rake2204]

Man I used to think this guy was gonna be a great player. I was waaaaaaaay off lol.
He actually wasn't too shabby for a few seasons there, though I suppose he didn't earn the nickname Bad Porn for nothing.

[spiegel]

Good move for both teams. The cats are looking for draft picks above all else. Next season we'll have a lottery pick plus Portland's pick from the Gerald Wallace trade. Plus Diop and Carroll come off the books and Tyrus Thomas or Gordon can be amnestied. In 2014 or 2015 the pick that came with Gordon could result in a very good player.

Maggette was essentially worthless last season and only played in half of the games. It leaves us without a starting SF which makes me think we're gonna take MKG or Barnes in the draft and sign a FA like Antawn Jamison.
Jamison wont go to the Bobcats. If he wanted to finish his caeer with a bad team he would have re-signed with the Cavs.

[rufuspaul]

Jamison wont go to the Bobcats. If he wanted to finish his caeer with a bad team he would have re-signed with the Cavs.


His entire extended family lives in Charlotte. He owns a home here. He played HS ball here and college at UNC. He has publicly stated that he would like to end his career here. Nice try though.

[Crown&Coke]

so Charlotte has the old Ben Gordon and the new Ben Gordon (Kemba) on the same team? How will that work out.

Man Detroit has another sf to work into the rotation

[Rake2204]

Man Detroit has another sf to work into the rotation
I'm betting Detroit won't be terribly motivated to find playing time for Maggette unless he legitimately earns it. I think this is again an example of how ridding Gordon frees up a little more flexibility. From here, I'd say any Piston chilling at the small forward spot right now is very tradeable. The value each demands greatly varies, but they're all at least possibilities to be moved (Maggette, Tayshaun Prince, Jonas Jerebko, Austin Daye). As we all know, none of this guarantees the right moves will be made, but it is necessary to put oneself in position to make the moves in the first place.

[dd24]

I'm betting Detroit won't be terribly motivated to find playing time for Maggette unless he legitimately earns it. I think this is again an example of how ridding Gordon frees up a little more flexibility. From here, I'd say any Piston chilling at the small forward spot right now is very tradeable. The value each demands greatly varies, but they're all at least possibilities to be moved (Maggette, Tayshaun Prince, Jonas Jerebko, Austin Daye). As we all know, none of this guarantees the right moves will be made, but it is necessary to put oneself in position to make the moves in the first place.

If I had to guess it seems like another move will be made eventually. I could see the Pistons trading one of those guys to get a 1st round pick to make up for the one they gave Charlotte. Joe D needs a few good drafts still.

[Crown&Coke]

I'm betting Detroit won't be terribly motivated to find playing time for Maggette unless he legitimately earns it. I think this is again an example of how ridding Gordon frees up a little more flexibility. From here, I'd say any Piston chilling at the small forward spot right now is very tradeable. The value each demands greatly varies, but they're all at least possibilities to be moved (Maggette, Tayshaun Prince, Jonas Jerebko, Austin Daye). As we all know, none of this guarantees the right moves being made, but it is necessary to put oneself in position to make the moves in the first place.

I think all 4 will have some value around the league too. Jonas plays a lot of 4 for them, but he can be considered a potential 3 for many teams.

Getting rid of Gordon's deal, also frees up some minutes at the guard spot, I've read Detroit sees Brandon Knight as a combo guard, same with Stuckey. Whether you agree or not, both guys deserve some minutes.

[Rake2204]

I think all 4 will have some value around the league too. Jonas plays a lot of 4 for them, but he can be considered a potential 3 for many teams.

Getting rid of Gordon's deal, also frees up some minutes at the guard spot, I've read Detroit sees Brandon Knight as a combo guard, same with Stuckey. Whether you agree or not, both guys deserve some minutes.
I suppose we'll have to see how it plays out, but it seemed like the Pistons may have stumbled upon something late in the year when they established Brandon Knight at the point and Rodney Stuckey definitively at the two spot. I feel as though one of the issues with Stuckey throughout his career was a relative lack of clearly defined expectations. Did they want Stuckey to distribute? Attack? Both at the same time? As it stands, I think Stuckey is actually really dangerous when he plays his own game, which essentially means relentlessly attacking. As such, I'd like to continue to see a Knight/Stuckey 1-2 backcourt for now, just to see how things develop in the new season.

[dd24]

I suppose we'll have to see how it plays out, but it seemed like the Pistons may have stumbled upon something late in the year when they established Brandon Knight at the point and Rodney Stuckey definitively at the two spot. I feel as though one of the issues with Stuckey throughout his career was a relative lack of clearly defined expectations. Did they want Stuckey to distribute? Attack? Both at the same time? As it stands, I think Stuckey is actually really dangerous when he plays his own game, which essentially means relentlessly attacking. As such, I'd like to continue to see a Knight/Stuckey 1-2 backcourt for now, just to see how things develop in the new season.

Absolutely. For a few years now Joe D has been pushing Stuckey into a leadership role, but it's hard to have him be the man when he's splitting minutes and wearing so many hats.

[Crown&Coke]

I suppose we'll have to see how it plays out, but it seemed like the Pistons may have stumbled upon something late in the year when they established Brandon Knight at the point and Rodney Stuckey definitively at the two spot. I feel as though one of the issues with Stuckey throughout his career was a relative lack of clearly defined expectations. Did they want Stuckey to distribute? Attack? Both at the same time? As it stands, I think Stuckey is actually really dangerous when he plays his own game, which essentially means relentlessly attacking. As such, I'd like to continue to see a Knight/Stuckey 1-2 backcourt for now, just to see how things develop in the new season.

I agree totally. Stuck is a legit terror when his job is to attack and get his own rather than try and be Billups and control the game. The guy is so strong you can't body him from getting into the lane, defenders just bounce off him

I really like Knight, and Stuckey's attack really took a lot of pressure off him as a rookie later in the year he seemed to find a nice little rythme.

A Stuck/Knight backcourt would be Detroit's best option. Both guys are only going to get better, neither are killing them on defense either

[rufuspaul]

If I had to guess it seems like another move will be made eventually. I could see the Pistons trading one of those guys to get a 1st round pick to make up for the one they gave Charlotte. Joe D needs a few good drafts still.

Exactly. It was a salary dump for the Pistons, who could turn Maggette's expiring contract into a draft pick. Smart move for both teams.

[embersyc]

I have to think there is something else coming from Dumars, I expect more activity this offseason. No more waiting games, we have good young players, playoffs are not out of the question next season if the right moves are made.

[dd24]

As a Detroit fan I'd rather not see them in the playoffs next year. What's the point of being an 8 seed and losing in the first round? Unless there's a major move that's made this definitely isn't a lineup that can compete for a championship. Dwight Howard isn't asking to get traded to Detroit. They aren't going to snag Chris Paul in free agency next year with their new found cap space. The Lakers aren't going to let Andrew Bynum walk there after this upcoming season. Looking at next years FA's the best shot I see at the Pistons landing a decent player would be Josh Smith or Emeka Okafur. Adding them to the current lineup isn't going to be able to compete with teams like Miami and Chicago. Detroit needs to get lucky in the draft a few more times. The worst thing in the world that could happen to them is they become a .500 team, because they'll be stuck in mediocrity for while if that happens. If you're a Detroit fan, just hope that whoever they draft tomorrow turns out to be really good and then we can do that again next year, and we'll still need a solid contributor the year after that.... Then maybe Detroit could pull off a trade and make some noise.

[Rake2204]

As a Detroit fan I'd rather not see them in the playoffs next year. What's the point of being an 8 seed and losing in the first round? Unless there's a major move that's made this definitely isn't a lineup that can compete for a championship. Dwight Howard isn't asking to get traded to Detroit. They aren't going to snag Chris Paul in free agency next year with their new found cap space. The Lakers aren't going to let Andrew Bynum walk there after this upcoming season. Looking at next years FA's the best shot I see at the Pistons landing a decent player would be Josh Smith or Emeka Okafur. Adding them to the current lineup isn't going to be able to compete with teams like Miami and Chicago. Detroit needs to get lucky in the draft a few more times. The worst thing in the world that could happen to them is they become a .500 team, because they'll be stuck in mediocrity for while if that happens. If you're a Detroit fan, just hope that whoever they draft tomorrow turns out to be really good and then we can do that again next year, and we'll still need a solid contributor the year after that.... Then maybe Detroit could pull off a trade and make some noise.
That's not my mode of operation. They played the last 42 games this year at .500. I'm hoping for a relatively solid draft pick and I'm hoping for the Pistons to build upon what they had begun to establish last year. The last thing I'd hope to see from Detroit is a season that results in a very high draft pick. I mean, it'd be nice to have a high pick, but that'd mean anything that was moving upward toward the end of '12 had clearly gone terribly awry.

Basically, I believe it's more than possible to build a team up gradually as opposed to languishing for years and years until finally a team builds up 4-5 high draft picks who are all in the midst of turning out very well. If Detroit shows promise and if Detroit can make the playoffs, I think it's possible for things to fall in line.

I also think the whole "free agents want to go where it's warm" angle is one of the most overworked statements in the league today. Players want to go where there's money (and often where they can win). Again, if Detroit can continue to make forward progress, I think there's a fair amount of potential there.

[dd24]

So what you're saying is you believe that with the #9 pick this year and getting a mediocre/decent FA next year and the Pistons are contenders? I think they're farther off than that.

[BlackVVaves]

But maybe Jordan and Cho want to tank again and get a top 4 pick, instead of winning and getting something in the 5-8 range.

That's another consideration.

Too bad next year's draft is looking like the weakest in a long, long time.

[embersyc]

As a Detroit fan I'd rather not see them in the playoffs next year. What's the point of being an 8 seed and losing in the first round? Unless there's a major move that's made this definitely isn't a lineup that can compete for a championship. Dwight Howard isn't asking to get traded to Detroit. They aren't going to snag Chris Paul in free agency next year with their new found cap space. The Lakers aren't going to let Andrew Bynum walk there after this upcoming season. Looking at next years FA's the best shot I see at the Pistons landing a decent player would be Josh Smith or Emeka Okafur. Adding them to the current lineup isn't going to be able to compete with teams like Miami and Chicago. Detroit needs to get lucky in the draft a few more times. The worst thing in the world that could happen to them is they become a .500 team, because they'll be stuck in mediocrity for while if that happens. If you're a Detroit fan, just hope that whoever they draft tomorrow turns out to be really good and then we can do that again next year, and we'll still need a solid contributor the year after that.... Then maybe Detroit could pull off a trade and make some noise.

I'd rather see them be competitive and grow as a team and get the 6-8 seed then be a lottery team again. At least they can grow toward something, give the illusion of value to some of their players and pull off a trade for somebody better and get a winning culture back in place. Back in 02-03 people were saying the same things you're saying, why are they trying to win? What good can come of it? They'd be better off tanking for a lottery pick.

I'll never believe that missing the playoffs is a good thing.

[dd24]

Unless Austin Daye comes out this year and becomes the scoring machine we know he can be I really think that we need a lottery pick next year. There's definitely some guys in the lottery next year that could help complete things. Then figure in we'll sign something and we'll have to hope one of these lottery picks pans out to be great. I think if all that happened Detroit would be back to where they could be a top team for 5-7 years. If they get the 8 seed this year, and just sign someone I don't see them doing any better than the 8 seed the following year. We'd probably be stuck at that for a while. We also need to see what happens with CV too.

[Rake2204]

So what you're saying is you believe that with the #9 pick this year and getting a mediocre/decent FA next year and the Pistons are contenders? I think they're farther off than that.
I do not recall saying anything about contenders. Rather, I just objected to the idea of wasting a year making no real attempt at being a good team as a means of gaining a high draft pick. The thought itself kind of makes me want to vomit. My thoughts are similar to embersyc's (posted above). I can just never get behind the idea of hoping for my team to suck for an entire year (after numerous years of sucking already) just so we can take a chance in the draft. That wouldn't be how I'd want my team run.

For instance, after the 4-20 start in '12, the Pistons could have easily packed it in and tanked for the chance of gaining a super high pick this year. Instead, I feel much more was gained by Detroit's resilience and their very much improved finish (again, 21-21 the rest of the way).

[dd24]

I'm not implying they should tank games. I'm just saying I'd rather they didn't over achieve. That would be the worst thing that could happen to us. I'd rather see them at the very top than in the middle.

[CLTHornets4eva]

Too bad next year's draft is looking like the weakest in a long, long time.

:facepalm

Top 4 is better than this draft. Read up before you open your mouth.

[dd24]

:facepalm

Top 4 is better than this draft. Read up before you open your mouth.

Without seeing some of these guys play a college game yet I agree thus far. Next years draft won't have as much depth, but the top of it should be very good. Nerlens Noel, Cody Zeller, and Shabazz Muhammad are all going to be household names next year... I'm pretty excited to see how they step up. Muhammad has a ton of upside in my opinion. He could put UCLA back on the map.

[bdreason]

Kemba and Gordon backcourt? :oldlol:




And I think MJ is going to take Drummond. I would too.

[InspiredLebowski]

terrible deal. now I have to watch Corey Maggette play "basketball" like 4 times a year instead of 3. ship his ass out west.

[embersyc]

Unless Austin Daye comes out this year and becomes the scoring machine we know he can be I really think that we need a lottery pick next year. There's definitely some guys in the lottery next year that could help complete things. Then figure in we'll sign something and we'll have to hope one of these lottery picks pans out to be great. I think if all that happened Detroit would be back to where they could be a top team for 5-7 years. If they get the 8 seed this year, and just sign someone I don't see them doing any better than the 8 seed the following year. We'd probably be stuck at that for a while. We also need to see what happens with CV too.

I just don't get why you want to do it through draft. Name one draft pick that ever immediately turned their team into a championship caliber team.

Maybe Duncan, Shaq, or Jordan, but we aren't gonna get a guy like that. And even if we did they'd probably ditch us asap just like Grant Hill did.

[spyware]

terrible deal. now I have to watch Corey Maggette play "basketball" like 4 times a year instead of 3. ship his ass out west.
Ha ha you on point, sir. He's definitely one of a certain type of players :facepalm

[rufuspaul]

Kemba and Gordon backcourt? :oldlol:




And I think MJ is going to take Drummond. I would too.


Oh God I hope not. Last thing we need is a big man project that might be a total bust. I'm hoping this year we play it safe and take Robinson, then swing for the fences next year.

It was telling at the press conference yesterday with Dunlap, Cho and Higgins that they didn't want to elaborate too much on what Gordon would do as a Bobcat (starter or backup to Henderson/Walker). It makes me think that another trade is in the works.

[dd24]

I just don't get why you want to do it through draft. Name one draft pick that ever immediately turned their team into a championship caliber team.

Maybe Duncan, Shaq, or Jordan, but we aren't gonna get a guy like that. And even if we did they'd probably ditch us asap just like Grant Hill did.

You're right it'll take a year or two for them to develop. Name me one FA Detroit might get that can turn it around immediately? They aren't going to go out and sign Kobe or Lebron.... I'd rather have a ton of young talent and stay under the cap until there's a good player we could make a trade for. Stock piling assets is a far better idea than wasting money on players like BG & CV. We all saw how that worked out. Gathering as many young assets/draft picks is really the best way to build a team.

Grant Hill didn't ditch Detroit. He had that horrible ankle injury that caused Detroit to not want to give him a huge contract. That turned out to be a pretty good idea since that bothered Hill for quite some time after that.

[Rake2204]

You're right it'll take a year or two for them to develop. Name me one FA Detroit might get that can turn it around immediately? They aren't going to go out and sign Kobe or Lebron.... I'd rather have a ton of young talent and stay under the cap until there's a good player we could make a trade for. Stock piling assets is a far better idea than wasting money on players like BG & CV. We all saw how that worked out. Gathering as many young assets/draft picks is really the best way to build a team.

Grant Hill didn't ditch Detroit. He had that horrible ankle injury that caused Detroit to not want to give him a huge contract. That turned out to be a pretty good idea since that bothered Hill for quite some time after that.
I feel it's most worthwhile for a team to build through any means necessary. I don't think it's ever wise to just build through drafts or just build through trades or free agency. I think we can all agree with that. Good teams come about through the right players developing at the right time coinciding with solid acquisitions from outside sources. Waiting on the draft to provide Detroit with a superstar is probably just about as likely to occur as trading or signing one.

I think the makeup of most of the great teams right now is pretty darn split in terms of how they came to be. The Thunder is one of the few that come to mind who were able to stockpile high lottery picks who all seemed to turn out. Though on the flip side, the Bobcats have been selecting high in the draft for years with no discernible payoff to this point. Meanwhile, the Bulls have risen to the top with three of their own high draft picks (Derrick Rose, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah) but not much else of their own, while the Spurs have run their dynasty largely thanks to anything but lottery picks (obviously with the exception of Tim Duncan).

Stockpiling assets, to me, can be an extremely long process that may not even guarantee long term production to begin with. For instance, it's very neat the Timberwolves seem to be on the rise. However, they've been a bad team for nearly 7 years. I'm not sure I'd say stockpiling talent was the most effective form of team-building (considering they're not a lock to break through, even now). They ended up with high lottery picks year after year and for every Kevin Love, there was a Rashad McCants. And for every Ricky Rubio, there was a Randy Foye, Corey Brewer and Johnny Flynn.

So to me, again, the goal I wish my favorite team to accomplish is for them to attempt to achieve a maximum number of victories at all times. As a fan, that's what I'm always hoping for, particularly with the '13 Pistons this year.

Also, I'd have to do some research on the Grant Hill deal because my memory tells me he was a very, very heavy threat to leave Detroit well before the ankle injury occurred. I'm pretty sure I even remember reading a random article in SLAM magazine about it. I certainly don't remember his departure being injury-influenced. I just remember it being "greener pastures" influenced. I was bummed he was leaving but I wasn't surprised by it, and I certainly didn't think it was Detroit's negotiating tactics that led him to the door. Though again, my memory isn't particularly clear on the matter. I do remember being excited about Detroit executing a sign-and-trade though, thus not losing Hill for nothing, until I saw the folks the Pistons traded for were scrubs (aka Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace).

[matt1016]

Grant Hill didn't ditch Detroit. He had that horrible ankle injury that caused Detroit to not want to give him a huge contract. That turned out to be a pretty good idea since that bothered Hill for quite some time after that.

I think you're misremembering...they offered Grant Hill the max. He left for Orlando, and then they negotiated the sign and trade for Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins.

[dd24]

I feel it's most worthwhile for a team to build through any means necessary. I don't think it's ever wise to just build through drafts or just build through trades or free agency. I think we can all agree with that. Good teams come about through the right players developing at the right time coinciding with solid acquisitions from outside sources. Waiting on the draft to provide Detroit with a superstar is probably just about as likely to occur as trading or signing one.

I think the makeup of most of the great teams right now is pretty darn split in terms of how they came to be. The Thunder is one of the few that come to mind who were able to stockpile high lottery picks who all seemed to turn out. Though on the flip side, the Bobcats have been selecting high in the draft for years with no discernible payoff to this point. Meanwhile, the Bulls have risen to the top with three of their own high draft picks (Derrick Rose, Luol Deng, Joakim Noah) but not much else of their own, while the Spurs have run their dynasty largely thanks to anything but lottery picks (obviously with the exception of Tim Duncan).

Stockpiling assets, to me, can be an extremely long process that may not even guarantee long term production to begin with. For instance, it's very neat the Timberwolves seem to be on the rise. However, they've been a bad team for nearly 7 years. I'm not sure I'd say stockpiling talent was the most effective form of team-building (considering they're not a lock to break through, even now). They ended up with high lottery picks year after year and for every Kevin Love, there was a Rashad McCants. And for every Ricky Rubio, there was a Randy Foye, Corey Brewer and Johnny Flynn.

So to me, again, the goal I wish my favorite team to accomplish is for them to attempt to achieve a maximum number of victories at all times. As a fan, that's what I'm always hoping for, particularly with the '13 Pistons this year.

Also, I'd have to do some research on the Grant Hill deal because my memory tells me he was a very, very heavy threat to leave Detroit well before the ankle injury occurred. I'm pretty sure I even remember reading a random article in SLAM magazine about it. I certainly don't remember his departure being injury-influenced. I just remember it being "greener pastures" influenced. I was bummed he was leaving but I wasn't surprised by it, and I certainly didn't think it was Detroit's negotiating tactics that led him to the door. Though again, my memory isn't particularly clear on the matter. I do remember being excited about Detroit executing a sign-and-trade though, thus not losing Hill for nothing, until I saw the folks the Pistons traded for were scrubs (aka Chucky Atkins and Ben Wallace).

The only successful team that I can think of off the top of my head that wasn't built through the draft is Miami. Chicago's core pieces are guys they drafted. San Antonio is built through the draft, and it doesn't necessarily need to be lottery picks. The Clippers got to where they are through the draft. They stock piled talent and made a blockbuster trade for Paul. It seems like I've mentioned accumulating talent and making a trade.... OKC built their franchise through the draft. Orlando was good because of one draft pick.... The Lakers have been good because of the draft too. Remember they drafted Kobe and Bynum. They used draft picks to make trades for other pieces. Without the draft they don't have the titles they do. In a few years we're going to be talking about the Jazz too. They have a lot of young talent right now. They'll make a trade to move some of it, and they'll be a really competitive team. Indiana's success is mainly because of the draft.

Of course it takes good management to make those draft choices too. When you bring up Charlotte, they've had plenty of draft choices but typically haven't been smart in making their selections. Minnesota didn't have the smartest front office either. Of course it looks like they're back on track now.

I would say the vast majority of teams who win in the NBA do most of it through the draft in some way, whether it's actually taking the players or trading those picks. So I'll stand by it, in today's NBA the draft is the most important part of rebuilding a franchise. With salary cap restrictions (especially after the new CBA and luxury tax increase) you can't just go out and give FA's all kinds of money. Look how that's working out for NY, lol. When they were good it was because of all the guys they drafted (and then they gave most of them up for Anthony...). Detroit needs to stock pile young talent, and when they have enough make a trade. That trade is typically what puts teams over the top and in contention (Ex. LA with Gasol, OKC with Perkins). I've asked a million times but can't get a straight answer from anybody. If having all this potential cap space is going to save the franchise, what FA is it that you guys think Detroit is going to sign that's going to turn things around? Or what player do you think is honestly going to be on the trade market that Detroit would absorb their contract? Give me some concrete examples.

[G.O.A.T]

Here's the Pistons plan, which probably won't work:

Get rid of Gordon's contract (done)
Amnesty Charlie V's
Use tonight's pick plus next years lottery pick to add two big men
Use Maggette's expirer or the money from it along with Charlie V's money to sign 2-3 quality free agents.


That gets them four/five more rotation pieces to add to the Monroe/Knight/Jerebko/Prince core and if they hit on 4 of the 5 players they'll be a middle of the pack team in the East, if Knight becomes a star and Monroe keeps improving you could be a borderline contender.

[dd24]

Again, who are these 2-3 FA's Detroit is going to sign that are going to turn around the team? The only guy I possibly see having a chance of going to Detroit as a FA would be someone like Josh Smith. If Detroit drafts someone like Henson or Moultrie tonight why would they pour more money into the PF position, unless it's obvious the draft pick tonight is going to be a bust? Even if Detroit had the same roster with Josh Smith they would probably only be a 7 or 8 seed. They'd be stuck in mediocrity.

[Rake2204]

The only successful team that I can think of off the top of my head that wasn't built through the draft is Miami. Chicago's core pieces are guys they drafted. San Antonio is built through the draft, and it doesn't necessarily need to be lottery picks. The Clippers got to where they are through the draft. They stock piled talent and made a blockbuster trade for Paul. It seems like I've mentioned accumulating talent and making a trade.... OKC built their franchise through the draft. Orlando was good because of one draft pick.... The Lakers have been good because of the draft too. Remember they drafted Kobe and Bynum. They used draft picks to make trades for other pieces. Without the draft they don't have the titles they do. In a few years we're going to be talking about the Jazz too. They have a lot of young talent right now. They'll make a trade to move some of it, and they'll be a really competitive team. Indiana's success is mainly because of the draft.

Of course it takes good management to make those draft choices too. When you bring up Charlotte, they've had plenty of draft choices but typically haven't been smart in making their selections. Minnesota didn't have the smartest front office either. Of course it looks like they're back on track now.

I would say the vast majority of teams who win in the NBA do most of it through the draft in some way, whether it's actually taking the players or trading those picks. So I'll stand by it, in today's NBA the draft is the most important part of rebuilding a franchise. With salary cap restrictions (especially after the new CBA and luxury tax increase) you can't just go out and give FA's all kinds of money. Look how that's working out for NY, lol. When they were good it was because of all the guys they drafted (and then they gave most of them up for Anthony...). Detroit needs to stock pile young talent, and when they have enough make a trade. That trade is typically what puts teams over the top and in contention (Ex. LA with Gasol, OKC with Perkins).
Alright, so I think we're a little closer to each other on this than we may have originally thought we were. I totally believe in the importance of the draft, I just felt it wasn't the only piece to the puzzle. I'd have to look back, but I swear the point of one of your first posts on this matter was your hope that the Pistons would do poorly this year (aka not make the playoffs) so they could then begin stockpiling what I thought you were insinuating to be high draft picks. However, you have since stated it's just about the draft picks, period, not merely lottery choices. As such, I think the Pistons could knock down two birds with one stone. They could compete and improve, then attempt to draft a quality player at whatever draft position they draw.

I think it's quite obvious every successful team builds through the draft on some level (even if it means only one or two players). On that same note, every horrible team does the same. In fact, every squad is bound to be made up of a few free agent acquisitions, a few trades, and some draft picks. I wouldn't say that means the team only built themselves through the draft in that case. Again, with Chicago, I believe we're looking at 3-4 of their own picks making a difference on that squad. I believe the 2010 Lakers' only personal draft choices at the head of the team were Andrew Bynum and Derek Fisher (Bryant of course, was acquired via trade). Even in the Pistons' case, their championship team in '04 was largely not built through the draft. Tayshaun Prince and Mehmet Okur were key, but I wouldn't say that means the Pistons were built around those two. Then again, if trading a pick or a player who was picked at some point counts as building via draft, then we may as well concede that every single thing in the NBA ever stems from the draft, the cradle of civilization (i.e. the Pistons were able to sign Chauncey Billups in '03, who at one point was in fact drafted, thus making him a product of the draft).

But not to get it twisted, I still believe the draft is very important, I just don't think it's worth hoping for a team to fail. It's fun and easy to reference how well certain draft picks have worked out for certain teams but there's many squads who have stock-piled and failed miserably. Also, the Lakers did not stockpile young talent in Pau Gasol's case. They merely stockpiled poo, then exchanged it for Pau Gasol (though granted, one part of that deal - the non-Kwame Brown and Javaris Crittendon portion - did in fact include a young, undeveloped, question mark Marc Gasol). So if anything, the Lakers had a talent (M. Gasol) and exchanged it for a talent (P. Gasol).

My point is, there are many ways to build a contender and they don't all include a massive stockpile of draft picks. Most good teams seem to have a couple of pretty good players they drafted themselves and the other portions of the team are built through other means. Sometimes the draft plays a big role (OKC), sometimes it doesn't ('04 DET). Further, the Pistons have been attempting to stockpile players through the draft for years now. (B. Knight, G. Monroe, A. Daye, R. Stuckey, J. Jerebko, J. Maxiell, T. Prince). By the time you get to year five of Project Stockpile, there's usually a good chance the front end of your stockpile is either beginning to age, fail, or a little bit of both.

Finally, this quote:

I've asked a million times but can't get a straight answer from anybody. If having all this potential cap space is going to save the franchise, what FA is it that you guys think Detroit is going to sign that's going to turn things around? Or what player do you think is honestly going to be on the trade market that Detroit would absorb their contract? Give me some concrete examples.
I'm not sure anyone is saying "Forget the Draft, Cap Space is going to be our Godly savior." I think many can just recognize that it's likely better to improve roster flexibility than it is to be stuck in a depths-of-Hell salary cap quagmire, similar to the one the Knicks found themselves in for most of the early 2000's. Ben Gordon was a guy playing like he should be earning $5 million a year, except he was actually making $12 million. As such, the Pistons made a move that could be interpreted as improving their flexibility if a transaction that came about called for it.

Again, I don't think I've seen anyone proclaim that a single signing or bit of cap space freedom is going to magically turn things around. Instead, I think it's a matter of at least putting oneself in position to make a move if it becomes available. As of right now, I haven't taken a look at any possible Summer of 2013 free agents or potential trade possibilities. As such, there's nothing concrete there. However, I don't think that justifies just saying, "Ah, screw the salary cap. Let's not even try to fix it. If a player becomes available that we could afford if we weren't so ungodly high above the cap, then we'll worry about it."

Moral: I don't think the fix to a franchise is one-dimensional. Teams don't turn around simply from stock piling draft picks. Just the same, they don't just turn around by random signings. It's got to be a lot of things coming together, and I feel most often they effectively occur in a step-by-step process. As in, if the Pistons ever hope to have the chance of acquiring someone who requires money in exchange for play, they should probably take the steps toward being able to afford them. It's all about options. If the Pistons were content with hanging on to Ben Gordon and Charlie V's combined $25 million dollar contracts, that'd be just one less option for improvement.

[embersyc]

Again, who are these 2-3 FA's Detroit is going to sign that are going to turn around the team? The only guy I possibly see having a chance of going to Detroit as a FA would be someone like Josh Smith. If Detroit drafts someone like Henson or Moultrie tonight why would they pour more money into the PF position, unless it's obvious the draft pick tonight is going to be a bust? Even if Detroit had the same roster with Josh Smith they would probably only be a 7 or 8 seed. They'd be stuck in mediocrity.

They are better off working through trades honestly, but first they have to get some players other teams actually want.

Look at 04 team:

Billups: Free Agent
Hamilton: Trade
Prince: Drafted
Ben: Trade
Rasheed: Trade

Right now we have:

Knight: Drafted
Stuckey: Drafted
Prince: Drafted
Jerebko: Drafted
Monroe: Drafted

Not to mention a bunch of drafted bench guys, and you think the answer is keep building through draft?

[dd24]

They are better off working through trades honestly, but first they have to get some players other teams actually want.

Look at 04 team:

Billups: Free Agent
Hamilton: Trade
Prince: Drafted
Ben: Trade
Rasheed: Trade

Right now we have:

Knight: Drafted
Stuckey: Drafted
Prince: Drafted
Jerebko: Drafted
Monroe: Drafted

Not to mention a bunch of drafted bench guys, and you think the answer is keep building through draft?

Absolutely. Because if we have draft picks that people want or young talent we can then make a trade. Or if we for some reason land an all-star caliber player in the draft that could really change the franchise for the next 5-7 years. It all starts with the draft. From there you make tweaks. We're farther away than a few tweaks. Free agency isn't going to make this team a contender.