Spain 2008-2012: Best international side ever?

[Hyman]

Is Spain 2008-2012 the best international soccer side ever?

They've won in that period 2 Euros and 1 World Cup consecutively something that any other team has achieved before.

If they win next World Cup I think it won't be open for debate anymore. We are possibly enjoying the most legendary intarnational soccer team ever to play the game.

The amount of talent of their midfield in Busquets, Alonso, Xavi, Iniesta, Silva, Fabregas all playing in the same team at the same time is simply incredible. You might like or dislike their style, but they have created style. Its not only a question of winning but also of being trascendental

[DaHeezy]

I'm not big on futball but aren't they also doing this without a major international superstar? If they do have one I'm not familiar with any names

[Hyman]

I'm not big on futball but aren't they also doing this without a major international superstar? If they do have one I'm not familiar with any names

They easily have 10 of the 25 best players of the world

[knickballer]

I'm not big on futball but aren't they also doing this without a major international superstar? If they do have one I'm not familiar with any names

They have a bunch of "superstars" on their team.. Iniesta, Fabregas, Casillas, Xavi, Alonso, Torres(pre slump), etc, are some of the best players at their position. They are an incredibly stacked team and I would bet money that their B squad would be great as well in this tourney.

[1987_Lakers]

1970 Brazil would destroy.

But Casillas might go down as the best goalkeeper of all time, dude is a beast.

[Hyman]

1970 Brazil would destroy.

But Casillas might go down as the best goalkeeper of all time, dude is a beast.

?

[knickballer]

1970 Brazil would destroy.

But Casillas might go down as the best goalkeeper of all time, dude is a beast.

I don't think it's fair to say that a team that you and most others here weren't even born to seen be able to beat the GOAT team of our generation.

[1987_Lakers]

I don't think it's fair to say that a team that you and most others here weren't even born to seen be able to beat the GOAT team of our generation.

I'm 67 years old and I was there in Mexico and witnessed the greatest team I have ever seen.

[alenleomessi]

pele wouldnt even make the spanish national team

[I<3NBA]

pele wouldnt even make the spanish national team
:yaohappy:

stick to basketball kiddo

[alenleomessi]

:yaohappy:

stick to basketball kiddo
poor man's santi gazorla

[soadrules]

:yaohappy:

stick to basketball kiddo

It's sad when you're telling him to stick to Basketball when he predicted the Clippers would beat the Spurs in 5 or something.

He's awful either way.

[dunksby]

:yaohappy:

stick to basketball kiddo
Ironic cause people usually tell him to stick to football. He is just a bandwagon jumping kid, let him be :lol

[Swaggin916]

And i sleep through almost all there games.

If this is the best team ever goddamn they are boring. Why not just assemble a team of athletic 6'6+s and just play super defensively and then just hoof the ball up field and play for corners and long throws?

I think you have to play a really good style as well... but just strictly when it comes to winning, you can't deny it. They are the best of all time.

[chips93]

And i sleep through almost all there games.

If this is the best team ever goddamn they are boring. Why not just assemble a team of athletic 6'6+s and just play super defensively and then just hoof the ball up field and play for corners and long throws?

I think you have to play a really good style as well... but just strictly when it comes to winning, you can't deny it. They are the best of all time.

do you enjoy soccer at all, or are you just new to it? spain are about as fun to watch, for me, as any team in the world

[Balla_Status]

Great team though but definitely got some flaws...like being too cute.

[Swaggin916]

do you enjoy soccer at all, or are you just new to it? spain are about as fun to watch, for me, as any team in the world

No been watching soccer (all the club leagues but mostly the EPL and international) for 2 years now and I have seen enough to know what I like and what I don't. I don't care for there style it's annoying, slows the game down, and frankly is unnecessary at times.

[iamgine]

Can they be called the best ever when they almost lost to Portugal via penalty? Portugal?

[dajadeed]

Can they be called the best ever when they almost lost to Portugal via penalty? Portugal?


Yes, because almose doesn't count. No international side has ever won 3 major tournaments in a row. Soccer is not like basketball where you can have a stinker of a game.

Knock-out rounds are 1 game only.

Whoever said they are boring is new to soccer. They play BEAUTIFUL soccer, it is very Barca like.

They won this tournament with 2 of their best players injured.

:oldlol: @ them not having superstars. :wtf:

[iamgine]

Yes, because almose doesn't count. No international side has ever won 3 major tournaments in a row. Soccer is not like basketball where you can have a stinker of a game.

Knock-out rounds are 1 game only.

Whoever said they are boring is new to soccer. They play BEAUTIFUL soccer, it is very Barca like.

They won this tournament with 2 of their best players injured.

:oldlol: @ them not having superstars. :wtf:
Why does 3 in a row matter? What if it's not in a row?

[Lebowsky]

Why does 3 in a row matter? What if it's not in a row?
Well, considering no other team has ever managed to win 3 major tournaments in a row so with as many great teams as there have been in history, that tells you something about the greatness of this Spanish squad. I don't know about best ever, because that comes down to personal taste, but I think they're inarguably the most dominant ever.

[Timmy D for MVP]

In terms of accomplishment they have to be pretty up there. 3 major tournaments in a row is a crazy feat. In a short time they have managed to do what some countries have never been able to sniff, and did it three times.

That said there are some other teams that are up there as well, maybe not in sheer accomplishments.

[iamgine]

Well, considering no other team has ever managed to win 3 major tournaments in a row so with as many great teams as there have been in history, that tells you something about the greatness of this Spanish squad. I don't know about best ever, because that comes down to personal taste, but I think they're inarguably the most dominant ever.

Maybe in Europe but the best competition usually comes from South American teams and Spain hasn't really faced nor dominate them.

[alenleomessi]

WC2014 is gonna be f*cking sick
Spain will still have their core, Germany youngsters should develop by then, but Neymar vs Messi should be the biggest story, Neymar should be one of the best by then, and at his home country against Messi who will only need the WC to unarguably be the best ever and better than Pele.

[chains5000]

WC2014 is gonna be f*cking sick
Spain will still have their core, Germany youngsters should develop by then, but Neymar vs Messi should be the biggest story, Neymar should be one of the best by then, and at his home country against Messi who will only need the WC to unarguably be the best ever and better than Pele.
Don't think so

[tbc]

the best competition usually comes from South American teams

no

[Nick Young]

Last night they played excitingly, not boring do nothing possession, was amazing.

Also superstar guys like Iker Munian, Santi Cazorla, Juan Mata never even get to play, I dont think any english player would even be able to walk on to their second team, maybe Ashley Cole.

[Nick Young]

pele wouldnt even make the spanish national team
jesus christ, gtfo you bandwagon piece of shit

[alenleomessi]

Last night they played excitingly, not boring do nothing possession, was amazing.

Also superstar guys like Iker Munian, Santi Cazorla, Juan Mata never even get to play, I dont think any english player would even be able to walk on to their second team, maybe Ashley Cole.
wayne rooney obviously

[Nick Young]

wayne rooney obviously
have you seen this guy play internationally? He gets scared and disappears and fails under pressure.

[alenleomessi]

have you seen this guy play internationally? He gets scared and disappears and fails under pressure.
thats because he plays with shitty teammates

[Bosnian Sajo]

IMO they have got to be up there somewhere, this team is freaking incredible. So many amazing players, you cant just focus on one...its like Barca x10.

[B-Easy8]

Great team and they deserved to win the tournament. I really would have liked to see them play Germany instead as I think they are the only team that can give them a real run. Germany need to sort there defense lapses out though.

[alenleomessi]

IMO they have got to be up there somewhere, this team is freaking incredible. So many amazing players, you cant just focus on one...its like Barca x10.
:lol

[Lebowsky]

WC2014 is gonna be f*cking sick
Spain will still have their core, Germany youngsters should develop by then, but Neymar vs Messi should be the biggest story, Neymar should be one of the best by then, and at his home country against Messi who will only need the WC to unarguably be the best ever and better than Pele.


Neymar should be one of the best by then

Lmfao.


Messi who will only need the WC to unarguably be the best ever and better than Pele.

Lmfao again.

[alenleomessi]

When i say one of the best that doesnt mean the best, more like top 10. So you think he cant be top 10? He was already a candidate for player of the year. Not sure whats so funny about it

And Messi right now is ARGUABLY the greatest, and winning the WC will shut a lot of people mouths, cant play for argentina, cant play without xaviesta, :blah
He will be flawless

[Lebowsky]

When i say one of the best that doesnt mean the best, more like top 10. So you think he cant be top 10? He was already a candidate for player of the year. Not sure whats so funny about it

And Messi right now is ARGUABLY the greatest, and winning the WC will shut a lot of people mouths, cant play for argentina, cant play without xaviesta, :blah
He will be flawless

Neymar is nothing but hype until he proves himself with decent competition. As for Messi being the greatest of all time if he wins a World Cup...I think he'd have to do more than that to gain that status. He has all the time in the world, but he's not quite there yet.

[alenleomessi]

Oh yes he is. Stop being ignorant.

[Lebowsky]

Oh yes he is. Stop being ignorant.
Maradona on Napoli > anything Messi's ever done.

[dunksby]

Maradona on Napoli > anything Messi's ever done.
This, haters won't ever recognize it.

[raiderfan19]

When i say one of the best that doesnt mean the best, more like top 10. So you think he cant be top 10? He was already a candidate for player of the year. Not sure whats so funny about it

And Messi right now is ARGUABLY the greatest, and winning the WC will shut a lot of people mouths, cant play for argentina, cant play without xaviesta, :blah
He will be flawless
Messi is also arguably not the best player in the world right now

[knickballer]

Maybe in Europe but the best competition usually comes from South American teams and Spain hasn't really faced nor dominate them.

I disagree. The best competition is in Europe by far.. Spain beat Italy, Portugal, France, and Croatia who would arguably the best teams in South America alongside Argentina, Brazil and Uruguay. Europe has the best teams by far.

[alenleomessi]

Maradona on Napoli > anything Messi's ever done.
cocaine is a helluva drug

[alenleomessi]

[QUOTE=DonD13]Pel

[alenleomessi]

Messi is also arguably not the best player in the world right now
and who is? cristiano? :lol

[Jasi]

Yes, I think the tiqui-taca Spain is up there.
Brazil 1970 of course is the main competitor.

I used to stare in awe at footage of Puskas and the Aranycszapat or whatever it is spelled. The Hungarian Golden Team of the 50s anyways.
Too bad they never won a trophy (the 1954 final is still called "The Miracle Game" for the Germans), but in terms of sheer brilliance they might be up there with 2010 Spain and 1970 Brazil.

[Jasi]

I was trying to field a Top XI All-time but it would need something close to a 1-2-7 formation, so I give up :lol

[Lebowsky]

Yes, I think the tiqui-taca Spain is up there.
Brazil 1970 of course is the main competitor.

I used to stare in awe at footage of Puskas and the Aranycszapat or whatever it is spelled. The Hungarian Golden Team of the 50s anyways.
Too bad they never won a trophy (the 1954 final is still called "The Miracle Game" for the Germans), but in terms of sheer brilliance they might be up there with 2010 Spain and 1970 Brazil.

I've seen very limited footage of that Hungarian team (spelling is right btw), but boy were they awesome. Way ahead of their time. Puskas-Kocsis-Czibor was dynamite.
Edit: Not to forget Bozsik, probably one the earliest pure playmakers ever.

[Jasi]

Funnily, both Brazil 1970 and Spain 2012 defeated Italy with 4 goals in the final.

Only the very best can beat us :D

[EMERE]

Messi is also arguably not the best player in the world right now:roll: :roll: was this a trolling attempt? lol

[raiderfan19]

I'm not saying that messi isn't the best player I'm simply saying that there is an argument to be made that he isn't

[Jasi]

How about Brazil's best starting XI ALL-TIME?

[CENTER]Gilmar
C.Alberto --- H.Bellini --- T.Silva --- N.Santos
Falcao ---------- Did

[Sarcastic]

Does anyone think Spain can win the WC on Brazil's home turf?

[AlonzoGOAT]

Didn't they loose to scrubs like the U.S in the confed cup in 2009? hat's banworthy

[LJJ]

Eh, tough to compare across eras imo. But from what I've watched recently I wouldn't really go there based on the quality of their results.

2008: Narrowly beat a pretty unimpressive German team in the finals. You had players like Friedrich, Hitzlsperger, Metzelder, Podolski, young Schweinsteiger playing out of position. That was not a very impressive team.

2010: Narrowly beat an unimpressive Dutch team in OT, after a fairly underwhelming showing by Spain the entire tournament. This Dutch team played the same unimaginative football they played during the last EC. With an injured Arjen Robben, Kuyt, van Bommel, Heitinga, Mathijsen, De Jong. That team was more than a little lucky to get to the finals, and they almost beat Spain still.

2012: Kudos, this was a good tournament for Spain. Easily their best tournament of the three, though they still received some criticism and probably should have gotten knocked out by Croatia.




So most dominant? I don't know about that. They are the most winningest. But while winning is obviously important, how convincingly you win and the competition you face is also important.

[Brunch@Five]

Eh, tough to compare across eras imo. But from what I've watched recently I wouldn't really go there based on the quality of their results.

2008: Narrowly beat a pretty unimpressive German team in the finals. You had players like Friedrich, Hitzlsperger, Metzelder, Podolski, young Schweinsteiger playing out of position. That was not a very impressive team.

2010: Narrowly beat an unimpressive Dutch team in OT, after a fairly underwhelming showing by Spain the entire tournament. This Dutch team played the same unimaginative football they played during the last EC. With an injured Arjen Robben, Kuyt, van Bommel, Heitinga, Mathijsen, De Jong. That team was more than a little lucky to get to the finals, and they almost beat Spain still.

2012: Kudos, this was a good tournament for Spain. Easily their best tournament of the three, though they still received some criticism and probably should have gotten knocked out by Croatia.




So most dominant? I don't know about that. They are the most winningest. But while winning is obviously important, how convincingly you win and the competition you face is also important.

ehm, not conceding a goal in knock-out stages for 10 straight games is pretty convincing, if you ask me.

[blablabla]

[QUOTE=Jasi]How about Brazil's best starting XI ALL-TIME?

[CENTER]Gilmar
C.Alberto --- H.Bellini --- T.Silva --- N.Santos
Falcao ---------- Did

[LJJ]

ehm, not conceding a goal in knock-out stages for 10 straight games is pretty convincing, if you ask me.

Eh, those type of stats don't really mean anything to me, because in football that's simply the way it goes sometimes. The fact that there have been no goals doesn't necessarily mean there haven't been any good chances for goals, nor that the defense was that great.

Don't get me wrong, their defense has been great. Their possession play and midfield crowding makes it hard for other teams to score, but on the other hand they have hardly looked impenetrable for all those matches. Many good chances were made, non of them found the net. Their defense has been great, but not too the point where it's actually the primary reason nobody scored on them.


It goes both ways too. Would their defense have been less great if by pure luck Balotelli scored twice on them last night? No it wouldn't be.

[alenleomessi]

[QUOTE=Jasi]How about Brazil's best starting XI ALL-TIME?

[CENTER]Gilmar
C.Alberto --- H.Bellini --- T.Silva --- N.Santos
Falcao ---------- Did

[NugzHeat3]

Do you guys think France from 1998-2000 could give them a decent challenge?

[Brunch@Five]

Eh, those type of stats don't really mean anything to me, because in football that's simply the way it goes sometimes. The fact that there have been no goals doesn't necessarily mean there haven't been any good chances for goals, nor that the defense was that great.

Don't get me wrong, their defense has been great. Their possession play and midfield crowding makes it hard for other teams to score, but on the other hand they have hardly looked impenetrable for all those matches. Many good chances were made, non of them found the net. Their defense has been great, but not too the point where it's actually the primary reason nobody scored on them.

It goes both ways too. Would their defense have been less great if by pure luck Balotelli scored twice on them last night? No it wouldn't be.

thing is, "the way it goes sometimes" doesn't apply here, because it has been 10 games. This is not sometimes, not pure luck or lack of it. They don't make mistakes defensively. I vehemently disagree with you assertion that there have been good chances for goals. They barely concede counter-attacks, and when the other team is in possession Spain rarely allows for a direct drive into the penalty box. Pique and Sergio Ramos are maybe the best defenders in the world right now, and it shows. They didn't even have Mascherano and Puyol.

Teams with a great creative midfielder can do some harm on some occasions (like Modric or Pirlo did, maybe

[LJJ]

I think it's pretty ridiculous to assert that there haven't been any good chances over the past ten games, I can think of more than a handful and I haven't even seen every game.

Less than normal? That is isn't "pure luck". That's exactly what I'm saying, their defense has been great. But to say they have legitimately shut out 10 teams in a row is outrageous. Goals can happen against the best defenses. That would make them the greatest team of all time no question, if they had the ability to shut out teams at will. Unbeatable.

I just don't see that when I watch Spain play. Plenty of teams have come close to beating them. Portugal, Croatia, Netherlands, Switzerland. Not all of these teams are even that good, yet during all of these the coin could have easily dropped the other way.

[Andrei89]

Do you guys think France from 1998-2000 could give them a decent challenge?


Any team with Zizou could give the a challenge. Probably the best midfielder of all time. He would take these guys to school.

Not taking any credit from Spain though. They are deep as ****.

[Jasi]

cafu?

It's a toss up between Djalma Santos (the inventor of the attacking RB), Carlos Alberto and Cafu for that role.


Is that Thiago Silva? :biggums:

Indeed.
The CB is easily the worst role in Brazil's history.
Alternatives to Thiago Silva were Julio C

[LBJMVP]

Didn't they loose to scrubs like the U.S in the confed cup in 2009? hat's banworthy


yeah!!!

i remember that.
we shut out spain 2-0

that was the year we beat spain and then were up 2-0 on brazil and ended up blowing it.

i forgot we beat spain

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[brownmamba00]

messi the greatest?:lol

[brownmamba00]

Do you guys think France from 1998-2000 could give them a decent challenge?
if someone is beating them it would be a ZzZ-led team.

[alenleomessi]

Any team with Zizou could give the a challenge. Probably the best midfielder of all time. He would take these guys to school.

Not taking any credit from Spain though. They are deep as ****.
Zidane recently said that Iniesta is a paler version of himself. So yeah he will school them,right

Spain might not be the most dominant national team, but what team had a better midfield that theirs?

[Nick Young]

Zidane recently said that Iniesta is a paler version of himself. So yeah he will school them,right

Spain might not be the most dominant national team, but what team had a better midfield that theirs?
Why are you propping them up so much, you aren't spanish you piece of shit.

[falc39]

yeah!!!

i remember that.
we shut out spain 2-0

that was the year we beat spain and then were up 2-0 on brazil and ended up blowing it.

i forgot we beat spain

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

lol that game was hilarious

especially ramos bahahahaha

[alenleomessi]

Why are you propping them up so much, you aren't spanish you piece of shit.
because more than half of the team plays for barca you retarded piece of shit

[Nick Young]

USA, first team to beat Spain in 2 years, damn we really know how to raise our game when it matters, just like our hockey team. We will have a world cup soon!:rockon: :rockon: :rockon:

We also just beat Italy IN ITALY a few months ago

Every nation has it's trademark-
Italy is defensive, good at tournaments
Brazil is beautiful samba
Spain is possession
Neatherlands is at choking

USA's trait is clutchness

[Lebowsky]

Zidane recently said that Iniesta is a paler version of himself. So yeah he will school them,right

Spain might not be the most dominant national team, but what team had a better midfield that theirs?

I don't see Zidane when I watch Iniesta, I see a rich man's Laudrup.

[Jasi]

I don't see Zidane when I watch Iniesta, I see a rich man's Laudrup.

Very nice comparison :applause:

I actually have a hard time finding another player like them in history. Very rare type of player.

[Qwertyazerty]

Eh, tough to compare across eras imo. But from what I've watched recently I wouldn't really go there based on the quality of their results.

2008: Narrowly beat a pretty unimpressive German team in the finals. You had players like Friedrich, Hitzlsperger, Metzelder, Podolski, young Schweinsteiger playing out of position. That was not a very impressive team.

2010: Narrowly beat an unimpressive Dutch team in OT, after a fairly underwhelming showing by Spain the entire tournament. This Dutch team played the same unimaginative football they played during the last EC. With an injured Arjen Robben, Kuyt, van Bommel, Heitinga, Mathijsen, De Jong. That team was more than a little lucky to get to the finals, and they almost beat Spain still.

2012: Kudos, this was a good tournament for Spain. Easily their best tournament of the three, though they still received some criticism and probably should have gotten knocked out by Croatia.




So most dominant? I don't know about that. They are the most winningest. But while winning is obviously important, how convincingly you win and the competition you face is also important.

Oh Lord!!!

The 2008 Eurocup was won in an impressif maner by the Spanish national team. Narrowly beat a pretty unimpressive German team??? What do you expect in a final game, another 4-0??? That German team was very good; don't let the names you spelled mislead you.

2009 Confed cup

[LJJ]

Never did I say it was "all luck". You people really need to work on your reading comprehension.

All I'm saying is that not even the best defense in the world (which Spain not even is) can legitimately shut out teams. And you would know that if you have watched the games. Of all the chances and attempts against Spain during those games, not a single one of them could have possibly went in right? Impossible right? None, zero chance of a goal. That's literally what you guys are saying. It's completely ridiculous.

[Qwertyazerty]

1- Can they be called the best ever when they almost lost to Portugal via penalty? Portugal?...

2- Why does 3 in a row matter? What if it's not in a row?

1 - Portugal?!?!?

CR7 + Nani + Moutinho + Pepe+ coentrao = Elite players and the rest are not worse than great. They were playing great and they had 48h more resting time before a key game.


2 - Winning several championship with several generations means you are a strong soccer/football nation. Winning several championship with one generation of player means that generation is a dynasty and that's more likely to happen with clubs than national teams. What this spanish generation has done has no equal in history. As simple as that.

[Qwertyazerty]

Maybe in Europe but the best competition usually comes from South American teams and Spain hasn't really faced nor dominate them.

Last 3 World Cups half finals:

2002 Korea:

Turkey 0 - 1 Brazil
Korea 0 - 1 Germany (Korea Refering versus Italy and Spain in 1/8 and 1/4 finals was a pitty as this video clearly shows... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddUKHMLAckE) so it should have been 3 European teams out of 4.

2006 Germany:

Germany 0 - 2 Italy
France 1 - 0 Portugal (yes, portugal)

4 out of 4 European

2010 South Africa:

Uruguay 2 - 3 Holland
spain 1 - 0 Germany

3 out of 4 European

IMO the strongest competition is clearly Europe.

[Qwertyazerty]

Never did I say it was "all luck". You people really need to work on your reading comprehension.

All I'm saying is that not even the best defense in the world (which Spain not even is) can legitimately shut out teams. And you would know that if you have watched the games. Of all the chances and attempts against Spain during those games, not a single one of them could have possibly went in right? Impossible right? None, zero chance of a goal. That's literally what you guys are saying. It's completely ridiculous.


Spain has finished the Eurocup as the team allowing less shoot on target per game. And BTW, which is for you the best defense of the world?
And if you consider the occasions for opposing team, you should also consider those ones created by Spanish without scoring... I mean versus Portugal in over time they had like 10 without scoring.

[LJJ]

Spain has finished the Eurocup as the team allowing less shoot on target per game. And BTW, which is for you the best defense of the world?
And if you consider the occasions for opposing team, you should also consider those ones created by Spanish without scoring... I mean versus Portugal in over time they had like 10 without scoring.

Yes. Let's shots at goal a game. More possession for Spain. More chances for Spain. All things exactly in accordance with what I said.

The only difference in what I am saying and what you guys are saying, is that you guys are saying that it was literally impossible for other teams to score on Spain during those games. 100% impossible. And that's why they are the greatest defensive teams of all time. I completely disagree it was impossible to score on them. I think their great defense played a part in not getting any goals against, but that not getting any goals against was just one of many possible outcomes.


And you are not going to come here and say a defensive line that includes Arbeloa (horrible all around player) and Jordi Alba (can't play defense) is one of the best defenses in the world. Their great midfield and offensive pressure is what makes the defense, not the defensive play itself. Same with Barcelona, they get very few goals against but you would not say they are a great defensive team.

[Lebowsky]

Yes. Let's shots at goal a game. More possession for Spain. More chances for Spain. All things exactly in accordance with what I said.

The only difference in what I am saying and what you guys are saying, is that you guys are saying that it was literally impossible for other teams to score on Spain during those games. 100% impossible. And that's why they are the greatest defensive teams of all time. I completely disagree it was impossible to score on them. I think their great defense played a part in not getting any goals against, but that not getting any goals against was just one of many possible outcomes.


And you are not going to come here and say a defensive line that includes Arbeloa (horrible all around player) and Jordi Alba (can't play defense) is one of the best defenses in the world. Their great midfield and offensive pressure is what makes the defense, not the defensive play itself. Same with Barcelona, they get very few goals against but you would not say they are a great defensive team.

To be honest, I really suspected his defense before the tournament, because he was average for Valencia in that regard last season, but he's been outstanding both offensively and defensively in the Euro imo. Very surprising to me.

[alenleomessi]

Spain had the best defense in the tournament ( probably in the world too ) and that was even without Puyol

[Qwertyazerty]

....
you guys are saying that it was literally impossible for other teams to score on Spain during those games. 100% impossible. And that's why they are the greatest defensive teams of all time. I completely disagree it was impossible to score on them. I think their great defense played a part in not getting any goals against, but that not getting any goals against was just one of many possible outcomes.

Well, then you and I haven't correctly understand each other. I never said it was impossible to score on them (Italy did) or that they are the best defensive team of all time. I say their defense as a team is outstanding and their keeper is among the very best in history.




And you are not going to come here and say a defensive line that includes Arbeloa (horrible all around player) and Jordi Alba (can't play defense) is one of the best defenses in the world. Their great midfield and offensive pressure is what makes the defense, not the defensive play itself. Same with Barcelona, they get very few goals against but you would not say they are a great defensive team.

Indeed, Arbeloa is the weaker position in their roster IMHO. But to say he is not good is a bit too much. He is a bit nasty at times, is very physical and doesn't fear any player. A championship team must have those kind of fearless players. But yes, compared to the other spaniards he isn't that great.

Alba on the other hand has been absolutely awesome during the last 2-3 months of the season. That's why Del Bosque called him to play without much experience. IMHO he's been one of the surprises of this championship. He's been almost flawless (at least I don't remember any important mistake). You will hear more from him in the future as he is now part of Bar

[Jasi]

The thing is that Spain's awesome defensive record is not the back four's credit, but the tiqui-taca's credit.
When you keep possession for 80% of the time, it's very difficult for your opponents to create chances.

[Brunch@Five]

Never did I say it was "all luck". You people really need to work on your reading comprehension.

All I'm saying is that not even the best defense in the world (which Spain not even is) can legitimately shut out teams. And you would know that if you have watched the games. Of all the chances and attempts against Spain during those games, not a single one of them could have possibly went in right? Impossible right? None, zero chance of a goal. That's literally what you guys are saying. It's completely ridiculous.

And you're calling other people out for lack of reading comprehension? :oldlol:
It has been obvious that the biggest problem for opposing teams is not stopping Spain's offense, but doing so without forfeiting an offensive gameplan. Noone is saying Spain couldn't have conceded a goal. It clearly can happen anytime. But you act like there were some blown chances that should have been converted by their opponents. A deadly pass by Pirlo or Ronaldo that lead to a shot from point blank range. Or that there were plenty of exceptional saves by Casillas. Shots that hit the post. All this has not been the case.

They are doing it by playing total football. Everyone defends, puts pressure on the ball. They regularly have 60% possession, wich means 20% less possession for the opposing team as compared to a 50/50 split.

Spain is the best team at shutting out opponents, where you can also say that the opposing team didn't even deserve to score a goal, or had extremely bad luck.

[LJJ]

But you act like there were some blown chances that should have been converted by their opponents. that there were plenty of exceptional saves by Casillas. Shots that hit the post. All this has not been the case.


This all actually has been the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjYKSyui1jI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98_-MqWV_lo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CZ0rlf0Iv4

This is just a small selection, but there have been many great chances for the opposing sides during all of those games. Yes, Spain still played great defense. Yes, Spain still had more chances than the opposition, usually even considerably more. But you guys are being delusional right now when you Spain doesn't get any goals against based on pure defensive prowess.

[Brunch@Five]

This all actually has been the case.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjYKSyui1jI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98_-MqWV_lo&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CZ0rlf0Iv4

This is just a small selection, but there have been many great chances for the opposing sides during all of those games. Yes, Spain still played great defense. Yes, Spain still had more chances than the opposition, usually even considerably more. But you guys are being delusional right now when you Spain doesn't get any goals against based on pure defensive prowess.

One is a penalty, the Kroos one a volley (or dropkick) which was hard to place well. Not a "oh, he should have scored there" moment. Which is the case for the Robben one. So that's one great chance off a great pass by Snejder after a billard-sequence.

Not convincing.

[LJJ]

A penalty attempt isn't a convincing chance to score?

And I'm the one being irrational. :oldlol:

[Nick Young]

Last 3 World Cups half finals:

2002 Korea:

Turkey 0 - 1 Brazil
Korea 0 - 1 Germany (Korea Refering versus Italy and Spain in 1/8 and 1/4 finals was a pitty as this video clearly shows... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddUKHMLAckE) so it should have been 3 European teams out of 4.


IMO the strongest competition is clearly Europe.

In 2002 if the refs weren't idiots USA would have beaten Germany as countless videos clearly show

[Brunch@Five]

A penalty attempt isn't a convincing chance to score?

And I'm the one being irrational. :oldlol:

we're talking about chances to score resulting from the actual gameplay. How is a penalty relevant? There is no defense.
From the highlight it looks like it resulted from a corner. Big deal. Only proves my point.

[LJJ]

we're talking about chances to score resulting from the actual gameplay.

A goal is a goal is it not? We are talking about each and every chance that could have broken Spain's clean sheet record.

You say that they have those clean sheets because there has literally been no good chance to score over those ten matches at all. None. Zero good chances. Which is still ridiculous.

And I have already completely refuted this. Moving on now.

[Brunch@Five]

A goal is a goal is it not? We are talking about each and every chance that could have broken Spain's clean sheet record.

You say that they have those clean sheets because there has literally been no good chance to score over those ten matches at all. None. Zero good chances. Which is still ridiculous.

And I have already completely refuted this. Moving on now.

We're talking about how good their defense is, and you're talking about penalties and corners. It's not about them not having conceded a goal. This is solely a symptom of their extraordinary defense. A goal scored after a corner, penalty or free kick doesn't change that. It's pretty much established that any team, bad as it may be, can score off those situations.
Are you intentionally being thick?

[LJJ]

A goal scored after a corner, penalty or free kick doesn't change that. It's pretty much established that any team, bad as it may be, can score off those situations.

Good, so then you agree that a record like "ten games with no concedes" is meaningless, that there have been good chances during those games and that you need to look at the quality of the defense as it really is instead of statistics.

[Brunch@Five]

Good, so then you agree that a record like "ten games with no concedes" is meaningless, that there have been good chances during those games and that you need to look at the quality of the defense as it really is instead of statistics.

it's not meaningless, it is a symptom/result of their great defense and aptly illustrates it. That's what statistics are for.
And I stand by my assertion that there have been little to no must-score chances for opposing teams, if you exclude corners, free-kicks and penalties (Robben's chance being an exception to the rule).

[Rojogaqu11]

Brazil all-time

Dida
R.Carlos, Cafu, D. Alves, Lucio
Zico, Kaka, Ronaldinho
Pele
Ronaldo, Romario

[iamgine]

it's not meaningless, it is a symptom/result of their great defense and aptly illustrates it. That's what statistics are for.
And I stand by my assertion that there have been little to no must-score chances for opposing teams, if you exclude corners, free-kicks and penalties (Robben's chance being an exception to the rule).
Aren't those the result of defensive lapses? Especially penalties.

[Brunch@Five]

Aren't those the result of defensive lapses? Especially penalties.

they are, but I would take that into account and not a saved/made penalty itself. Pique grabbing a player in the box after a corner is not a defensive lapse that tells you a lot about a teams defense.

[dajadeed]

Brazil all-time

Dida
R.Carlos, Cafu, D. Alves, Lucio
Zico, Kaka, Ronaldinho
Pele
Ronaldo, Romario

No. Just no.

First of all, that is a horrible back 4. You have one central defender and 3 fullbacks. I'd wager none of those 4 make the all time team.

Kaka wouldn't even make the 3rd all time team for Brazil.

Dida? No, just no.

Garrincha? Falcao? Didi? Di Santos?


For a country as great as Brazil in soccer, you somehow managed to come up with an unbalanced and weak team, given the talent pool. :D

[Rojogaqu11]

No. Just no.

First of all, that is a horrible back 4. You have one central defender and 3 fullbacks. I'd wager none of those 4 make the all time team.

Kaka wouldn't even make the 3rd all time team for Brazil.

Dida? No, just no.

Garrincha? Falcao? Didi? Di Santos?


For a country as great as Brazil in soccer, you somehow managed to come up with an unbalanced and weak team, given the talent pool. :D

Well, I'm just going by what I've seen and by modern soccer standards, not just by reputation.

Just by defensive ability, I think my defender selections are pretty great. I agree Dida is arguable but between him, Tafarel, Julio Cesar, I'd rather have prime Dida.
Prime Kaka was the best player in the world, with superb ball skills, playmaking, scoring, and speed. For a moment he was Zidane-good. As good as Garrincha, Socrates, and others were, IMO Kaka was a talent that unfortunately shined too briefly. There have been a small amount of players in history that have carried a team as he did AC Milan in that outstanding year, and he did it in more ways than just scoring and leadership. Just for that he would make my list.

[blablabla]

I'm just going to do the all time german squad

Kahn
Vogts---Beckenbauer---Kohler---Brehme
Schuster---Matth

[General]

It would be more impressive if they had won 2 World Cups and one Euro instead of the other way around, but they are the best International side I've ever seen play. I wasn't alive to see 1970's Brazil.

[Jasi]

[QUOTE=blablabla]I'm just going to do the all time german squad

Kahn
Vogts---Beckenbauer---Kohler---Brehme
Schuster---Matth

[dajadeed]

Well, I'm just going by what I've seen and by modern soccer standards, not just by reputation.

Just by defensive ability, I think my defender selections are pretty great. I agree Dida is arguable but between him, Tafarel, Julio Cesar, I'd rather have prime Dida.
Prime Kaka was the best player in the world, with superb ball skills, playmaking, scoring, and speed. For a moment he was Zidane-good. As good as Garrincha, Socrates, and others were, IMO Kaka was a talent that unfortunately shined too briefly. There have been a small amount of players in history that have carried a team as he did AC Milan in that outstanding year, and he did it in more ways than just scoring and leadership. Just for that he would make my list.

No problem, I'm just pointing out that for defense you have 3 players who are fullbacks and known for going forward. It is the Brazilian way, but you can't play 3 fullbacks. It doesn't make sense. Your hypothetical team would get ripped apart back there.

And I won't get into Kaka much, but he has been a major disappointment. He had some great years at AC Milan, but nothing at the national level to get picked ahead of someone like Rivaldo for instance.

Prime Rivaldo shits all over Kaka. It's not even close. And Rivaldo wouldn't make my all time Brazil team.

[lakers_forever]

[QUOTE=Jasi]It's a toss up between Djalma Santos (the inventor of the attacking RB), Carlos Alberto and Cafu for that role.



Indeed.
The CB is easily the worst role in Brazil's history.
Alternatives to Thiago Silva were Julio C

[lakers_forever]

As far as Spain being the best ever, no. Brazil 1958-1962 was greater.

They won back to back world cups. Untill this day, they are the only non european nation to win in Europe (no european nation has even won in Sout America).

A team that head the best ever Pele, plus legends like Garrincha, Didi, Nilton and Djalma Santos.

And here an interesting fact for you, Brazil never lost a single game with Pele and Garrincha playing together (40 games - 36 wins and 4 draws - Pele scored 55 and Garrincha, 11).


How can you beat that?

Also that team team had great defense. Only suffered 4 goals in 6 games in 1958 ( goal average of 3.6 per game in the 58 wc).


As for single cup perfomance, Brazil 1970 is the greatest. They dominated from the first game and everybody loved their style of playing. Not so much for Spain, who did not look that dominant in earlier stages of Euro and WC and also a lot of people think they are boring.
Plus they had Pele, Rivellino, Gerson, Jairzinho, Tostao and Carlos Alberto Torres. :rockon:

[lakers_forever]

pele wouldnt even make the spanish national team



lebowsky just said neymar plays against shitty competition
so did pele
he won WCs? those brazil teams were more stacked than spain


:roll: In Pele'era (Brazil's golden era), all of the players who won those 3 (58,62 and 70) world cups played in Brazil. It was not like today. Brazilian based football was up there with the best and Santos was the best team in the world in the early 60's.

[lakers_forever]

I'm 67 years old and I was there in Mexico and witnessed the greatest team I have ever seen.

I'm so jelous of you. :applause: :bowdown:

[Jasi]

[QUOTE=lakers_forever]You don't know much about brazilian football if you think Julio Cesar and Lucio and Thiago Silva (dude is so young) are among the very best brazilian cb's ever.

Have you ever heard of Mauro Ramos de Oliveira, Domingos da Guia, Orlando, Piazza (played as a CB in the 70 team), Mozer and so on?


All time Brazil:

---------------Gilmar-------------------------------------------
Torres*--Domingos da Guia--Mauro---Nilton Santos---
-----------------Falc

[TheMan]

[QUOTE=Brunch@Five]thing is, "the way it goes sometimes" doesn't apply here, because it has been 10 games. This is not sometimes, not pure luck or lack of it. They don't make mistakes defensively. I vehemently disagree with you assertion that there have been good chances for goals. They barely concede counter-attacks, and when the other team is in possession Spain rarely allows for a direct drive into the penalty box. Pique and Sergio Ramos are maybe the best defenders in the world right now, and it shows. They didn't even have Mascherano and Puyol.

Teams with a great creative midfielder can do some harm on some occasions (like Modric or Pirlo did, maybe

[lakers_forever]

Considering that 8/11 of my Brazil selection is the same as yours, who seem yo know so much about the golden era, i consider myself educated enough.
I admit Brazilian CBs were never my first interest in football :lol

Actually I did not see your team, only the part about the CB'S. Nice team and I will be fair and say that you only don't know much about brazilian CB's. You know about the rest :lol :cheers:


What do you think about my posts about the 58/62 team being the greatest, specially the fact that Brazil never lost with Pele and Garrincha?

EDIT: Only one thing: Nilton Santos was the inventor of the attacking full back (he was a left back). Djalma was a rb like you said, but he was know mainly for his defense.

[Jasi]

Actually I did not see your team, only the part about the CB'S. Nice team and I will be fair and say that you only don't know much about brazilian CB's. You know about the rest :lol :cheers:


What do you think about my posts about the 58/62 team being the greatest, specially the fact that Brazil never lost with Pele and Garrincha?

EDIT: Only one thing: Nilton Santos was the inventor of the attacking full back (he was a left back). Djalma was a rb like you said, but he was know mainly for his defense.

Yeah I think in terms of overall talent the Garrincha-led team might win the comparison.
But i still put the 1970 Brazil ahead. I won't lie, it may be because I have seen much more of the 1970 team than the other. But they just dominated that WC against much better competition and talentwise they were not inferior to 1962. Maybe individually inferior but collectively they played some of the most beautiful football in history.
I have seen many times footage of he final vs Italy and while it was a loss for me as a fan, it's delightful for me as a football lover to see that side in action.

Same with the tiqui-taca Spain, awesome teamwork by awesome talents, it's never boring for me.

[chips93]

I'm so jelous of you. :applause: :bowdown:

pretty sure hes lying

i think he made a thread a while back about how he loved being young and partying

[Jasi]

Argentina?

[CENTER]Fillol
Zanetti --- Passarella --- Samuel --- Marzolini
Veron -------- Cambiasso
Di St

[Jasi]

I still have to figure out an Italian all time selection.
We have had a crazy concentration of talent at the n.10 position.
You cannot fit Baggio, Rivera, Mazzola, Del Piero, Totti and Antognoni in one formation.


Buffon

Baresi
Nesta ----------- Cannavaro

Conti ------ Pirlo ---- Mazzola ----- Maldini

Rivera
----------------- Baggio
Riva --------------

Not really happy about this.
Maldini as a WB is not at his best.
So is Mazzola as a holding midfielder :lol Tardelli or Ancelotti would fit much better there, or even De Rossi.
The rest is very good but benching Del Piero, Totti and Antognoni is painful....

[lakers_forever]

[QUOTE=Jasi]Argentina?

[CENTER]Fillol
Zanetti --- Passarella --- Samuel --- Marzolini
Veron -------- Cambiasso
Di St

[alenleomessi]

Messi failed too, why is he on your list?

cut the crap Batistuta is a perfect nine

[lakers_forever]

Messi failed too, why is he on your list?

cut the crap Batistuta is a perfect nine

Batistuta was neve the best player in the world. Messi is. That's why. Actually, Bati, while a great player, was not even the best striker of his generation.
In the early 90's, it was still Van Basten, later Romario became the best and then Ronaldo arrived.

[Jasi]

Redondo and Ardiles over Veron and Cambiasso. And please no Samuel. IMHO, you just can't have 4* (Veron, Cambiasso, Samuel and Zanetti,) players of the losers generation of Argentina (no senior title since 1993).


*5 with Batistuta, who won the Copa America in 93, but was a part of the teams that failed again and again untill 02.

My team:

-----------------Fillol--------------------------
Zanetti--Ruggeri--Passarella---Marzolini--------
-------Ardiles-------Redondo--------------
--------------Maradona---------------
--Messi------Di Stefano-----Moreno

Yeah losers with Argentina (which I mostly blame on very weak coaches) but all of them have won so much at the club level that I couldn't even count.
And Samuel is (was) the perfect stopper, strong, fast, always concentrated, will also head in some goals. Only drawback, too many fouls just outside the box.