09 Kobe vs 12 Bron, playoff run POLL

[RazorBaLade]

Bosh averaged 14/7 in the playoffs in 2012 and only played half the games.

Odom averaged 15.6/9.6 in the playoffs in 2009 and was there for every game.

But apparently Bosh was more help. Cool man.

Where are you looking?

I see 12 and 9 for Odom and 14 and 8 for bosh.

With that said, odom has his stats raised heavily by a godly first round where as bosh came back from an injury, didnt get to beat up on weaker opponents, and still had better or equal stats. And wade was better than gasol too by a bit, battier and chalmers were about equal to fisher and ariza tho.

[TheeBeast]

Bosh averaged 14/7 in the playoffs in 2012 and only played half the games.

Odom averaged 15.6/9.6 in the playoffs in 2009 and was there for every game.

But apparently Bosh was more help. Cool man.


The main argument is that Lebron had almost an equal on his team, Dwayne Wade. Kobe had nothing close to Dwayne wade. Oh and the Lakers are Kobe's team, n the Heat is Wade's team.


Basketball is 90% mental. Kobe put Odom and everyone else in his killer state of mind. That should also be noted

[RazorBaLade]

Checked a few sites, I truly have no idea where ya found 15.6 and 9.6 lol.

[guy]

Agreed, its not considerably better but neither are the stats. Lebron has better stats but not considerably either. It has to be close.

Yes you have to factor in bosh missing 2 series, but cmon, he missed the first 2 rounds. He played the last 7 games of the playoffs. And he did WELL! Were the pacers or phi better than even like utah? Gotta factor in competition those first 2 rounds. Plus he had wade there. Kobe losing his 3rd option is a more crushing blow than heat losing bosh, that also says kobes team is worse.

It isn't a huge advantage to lebrons cast, Its just a clear one. Just as how lebrons stats are clearly better, just not by a lot.

I just think its a lot closer than some people are saying. It is reflected in the votes when I removed all the new accounts, its what like 20-17 right now in favor of lebron? I think that shows how close it really is.

Lebron put over 4+ rpg then Kobe, was more efficient, and played more MPG (which for some reason to some people think that gives Kobe more of a case, but Lebron being on the court longer and having a presence actually means more). I wouldn't say thats really that close. Thats basically the same thing as Kobe also doing Lamar Odom's job on the boards. It doesn't HAVE to be anything. And also, going by your initial post where you compared his stats relative to his teammates (but only included their best teammate for whatever reason), Lebron's made up a greater % of his team's stats across the board, which also is a greater gauge of how stats were affected by the pace since its a pace adjusted measure BTW.

Another thing about the MPG and the per minute basis people are pointing out to, its completely ignoring how much of a toll it takes on an entire playoff run. For example, both played about 44 mpg in the Finals. However, in the first 3 rounds, Kobe played 40.1 MPG, and Lebron played 42.4 MPG. Thats a 2.3 MPG difference. If Kobe was playing that many minutes at 30 years old in his 13th season through 3 rounds, there's a chance that he gasses out by the Finals. Bottom line is there is a reason why he didn't play as much as Lebron, and its probably cause he can't handle it or its not beneficial to try. So basically, the per minute stuff that people are bringing up is complete bullshit.

What were you watching? Bosh missed the middle 2 series. The Heat never faced Philly. They faced NY, then Indiana, then Boston, then OKC. He missed the last 5 games of the Indiana series and missed the first 4 of the Boston series, and barely played the 5th game vs. Boston. As far as competition by round goes in those years, I'd probably say it would be:
09 Jazz > 12 Knicks
12 Pacers > 09 Rockets (when you consider they lost their best player mid-series)
12 Celtics > 09 Nuggets
12 Thunder > 09 Magic

When did Kobe lose his 3rd option?

If they were completely healthy, sure. But they weren't. No one in their right mind would take Bosh for 14 games over Odom for 23 games. Thats a huge difference.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Checked a few sites, I truly have no idea where ya found 15.6 and 9.6 lol.
It's 12.3 and 9.1

[TheeBeast]

09 rockets put the Lakers through a 7 game series so I dont see how Pacers>Rockets

Orlando magic were the best defensive team and also had the dpoy and kobe still dropped 40 on them easily (averaged 32 against them)



Finals verages:

Lebron- 30.8 points, 8.1 rebounds, and 5.8 APG against 11th best defensive team

Kobe- 32 PPG, 5.5 RPG, 7.4 AGP against #1 defensive team

[RazorBaLade]

Lebron put over 4+ rpg then Kobe, was more efficient, and played more MPG (which for some reason to some people think that gives Kobe more of a case, but Lebron being on the court longer and having a presence actually means more). I wouldn't say thats really that close. Thats basically the same thing as Kobe also doing Lamar Odom's job on the boards. It doesn't HAVE to be anything. And also, going by your initial post where you compared his stats relative to his teammates (but only included their best teammate for whatever reason), Lebron's made up a greater % of his team's stats across the board, which also is a greater gauge of how stats were affected by the pace since its a pace adjusted measure BTW.

What were you watching? Bosh missed the middle 2 series. The Heat never faced Philly. They faced NY, then Indiana, then Boston, then OKC. He missed the last 5 games of the Indiana series and missed the first 4 of the Boston series, and barely played the 5th game vs. Boston. As far as competition by round goes in those years, I'd probably say it would be:
09 Jazz > 12 Knicks
12 Pacers > 09 Rockets (when you consider they lost their best player mid-series)
12 Celtics > 09 Nuggets
12 Thunder > 09 Magic

When did Kobe lose his 3rd option?

If they were completely healthy, sure. But they weren't. No one in their right mind would take Bosh for 14 games over Odom for 23 games. Thats a huge difference.

Lebron had more rebounds and 2% more efficient and kobe had better explosive scoring. How is that not close?

Oh right my bad. I disagree with pacers vs rockets, those pacers were soo not ready agree with rest. And no one in their right mind would take gasol over wade if they wanted to win a game. And it isnt really close.

[guy]

Lebron had more rebounds and 2% more efficient and kobe had better explosive scoring. How is that not close?

Oh right my bad. I disagree with pacers vs rockets, those pacers were soo not ready agree with rest. And no one in their right mind would take gasol over wade if they wanted to win a game. And it isnt really close.

How Kobe's scoring anymore explosive then Lebron's? Like I said, a 4 rpg difference. 4.4 to be exact. How is that close?

And a Rockets team that lost Yao after game 3 was ready? By the way, a team that got out of the first round for the first time? After game 3, there best players were Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, and Luis Scola. You're incredible if you think that that was harder competition.

I would take Wade, but he declined this year so the difference between him and Gasol doesn't eclipse the huge difference between Odom and Bosh given that Odom was playing 9 more games.

[guy]

09 rockets put the Lakers through a 7 game series so I dont see how Pacers>Rockets



Cause thats how we determine things right? :oldlol: Everyone knows the Lakers completely played down to them in those last 4 games. The Rockets had no business pushing that game 7. The Lakers and Celtics of the last few years are very similar in that regard.

[TheeBeast]

How Kobe's scoring anymore explosive then Lebron's? Like I said, a 4 rpg difference. 4.4 to be exact. How is that close?

And a Rockets team that lost Yao after game 3 was ready? By the way, a team that got out of the first round for the first time? After game 3, there best players were Ron Artest, Aaron Brooks, and Luis Scola. You're incredible if you think that that was harder competition.

I would take Wade, but he declined this year so the difference between him and Gasol doesn't eclipse the huge difference between Odom and Bosh given that Odom was playing 9 more games.

If you think the Rockets were nothing without Yao, you should go look at some highlights, they handed it to the Lakers in game 6.

Do you really want to argue that Wade isn't that better than Gasol was in 09? :biggums:

[TheeBeast]

Cause thats how we determine things right? :oldlol: Everyone knows the Lakers completely played down to them in those last 4 games. The Rockets had no business pushing that game 7. The Lakers and Celtics of the last few years are very similar in that regard.

The Rockets gave the Lakers all they had and put the (to be) NBA champions through more than any other team did in that run. So yeah

[guy]

If you think the Rockets were nothing without Yao, you should go look at some highlights, they handed it to the Lakers in game 6.

Do you really want to argue that Wade isn't that better than Gasol was in 09? :biggums:

Yea they handed it to him. Cause the Lakers went into that mode where they played uninspired basketball and Kobe shot a million times despite it not going in like they have many times in the past, not because the Rockets without Yao were this really good and dominant team. That team wouldn't have even made the playoffs without Yao.

Not sure where I said Gasol was better?

[tpols]

09 Jazz > 12 Knicks
12 Pacers > 09 Rockets (when you consider they lost their best player mid-series)
12 Celtics > 09 Nuggets
12 Thunder > 09 Magic
.
This is completely false. The 09 Rockets were a much more potent and well rounded team than the Pacers. They were pretty much Indiana on Steroids with absurd D. The 12 Celtics were not better than the 09 Nuggets.:oldlol: Those Nuggets teams were far more stacked. You're looking at the fact that Miami had a rough time beating some of these lesser teams to justify how good they were. Fact is.. when Bosh went down, so did Miami's whole frontline. Thats one of the most important parts of any basketball team and presented a huge gaping hole that the other teams took advantage of.

Overall.. dysfunctional Knicks, young superstar-less Pacers, and old Celtics was the easiest road through the East since Lebron's Wizards days. Ill give props on the Thunder though.

[DirtySanchez]

Kobe twice in Sundays

[DatAsh]

This is completely false. The 09 Rockets were a much more potent and well rounded team than the Pacers. They were pretty much Indiana on Steroids with absurd D. The 12 Celtics were not better than the 09 Nuggets.:oldlol: Those Nuggets teams were far more stacked. You're looking at the fact that Miami had a rough time beating some of these lesser teams to justify how good they were. Fact is.. when Bosh went down, so did Miami's whole frontline. Thats one of the most important parts of any basketball team and presented a huge gaping hole that the other teams took advantage of.

Overall.. dysfunctional Knicks, young superstar-less Pacers, and old Celtics was the easiest road through the East since Lebron's Wizards days. Ill give props on the Thunder though.

I agree with this completely. Looking back, people are going to overrate the hell out of those Pacers and Celtics teams because of the troubles they caused for the heat early on. Even worse, people are going to underrate the hell out of the 2012 Thunder because of how easily the 2012 Heat whomped them. The truth is, the Miami Heat that played in the finals would have absolutely slaughtered the east. If we're being completely honest, the Thunder probably sweep the Pacers and take out the Celtics in five.

The east was weak this year. People just underestimate how much a 3 man team relies on it's third best player(especially when that player is their only competent big man).

[TheeBeast]

This is completely false. The 09 Rockets were a much more potent and well rounded team than the Pacers. They were pretty much Indiana on Steroids with absurd D.

The Houston Rockets did lose their best player but they came back even better without him, no doubt.

Kobe had to get through two of the best perimeter defenders in the game (Battier and Artest)

I remember hearing that Battier was given some big ass book on how to defend Kobe :lol

[tpols]

I agree with this completely. Looking back, people are going to overrate the hell out of those Pacers and Celtics teams because of the troubles they caused for the heat early on. Even worse, people are going to underrate the hell out of the 2012 Thunder because of how easily the 2012 Heat whomped them. The truth is, the Miami Heat that played in the finals would have absolutely slaughtered the east. If we're being completely honest, the Thunder probably sweep the Pacers and take out the Celtics in five.

The east was weak this year. People just underestimate how much a 3 man team relies on it's third best player(especially when that player is their only competent big man).
Yup.. If the Heat get Bosh back and play like they did in games 2-5 in the finals they sweep the East.

[I LUV KOBE]

Cause thats how we determine things right? :oldlol: Everyone knows the Lakers completely played down to them in those last 4 games. The Rockets had no business pushing that game 7. The Lakers and Celtics of the last few years are very similar in that regard.
Nope, rockets is better than any of the 2012 playoff east team maybe even on par with the heat.. People forgot they won 20+ win a row even without Tmac and sometimes Yao Ming.. If they're completely healthy theres no doubt they won the championship that year..

[TheeBeast]

Nope, rockets is better than any of the 2012 playoff east team maybe even on par with the heat.. People forgot they won 20+ win a row even without Tmac and sometimes Yao Ming.. If they're completely healthy theres no doubt they won the championship that year..

I wouldn't go that far. They were better than the '12 Pacers but no way they would have gotten through the Nuggets or Orlando.

[I LUV KOBE]

I wouldn't go that far. They were better than the '12 Pacers but no way they would have gotten through the Nuggets or Orlando.
I think they have a chance to win a ring that year if they're completely healthy.. They're the only team that gives the Lakers trouble even without Tmac and Yao Ming.. They are really a good team and pretty stacked also..

[RazorBaLade]

Cause thats how we determine things right? :oldlol: Everyone knows the Lakers completely played down to them in those last 4 games. The Rockets had no business pushing that game 7. The Lakers and Celtics of the last few years are very similar in that regard.

If I remember correctly it was actually not the case at all. The lakers won first 2 in blowouts, then aaron brooks scored like 30 against fisher the next 2 games, then lakers blow out again, aaron brooks scores 30 again, etc.

If aaron was able to show up on our court it'd be a different series. It wasnt just lakers going up and then playing down to comp multiple games in a row. They just werent winning on the road cuz aaron was going OFF.

rockets were good team.. better than pacers for sure. even without yao.

[ZaaaaaH]

We all knew Kobe was gonna win 4 sure since he was the best player that year but LeBron as usual even though he was the best player this year he did not bring everything he had to win this finals and it clearly shows with impact not with numbers.

[Calabis]

Uh no, the most important games of the playoffs were played WITH bosh. Because you want the stats to be in heats favor you selected an average instead of allowing heat credit for bosh playing and doing much better than them. **** you.

All your post shows is with half the player bosh is the lakers and heat have about the same production. My point is made regardless.

:facepalm

First off, I didn't change the stats, I gave Bosh's stat credit for all 23 games...I said if I were to add his replacement which I didn't do, those averages would drop

:roll:

Quit reaching for straws, those are their teammates production....Kobe got the same help....you and 12 friends are comical with the excuses you come up with.

[I.R.Beast]

kobe....less help...more memorable games

[Calabis]

We know lebron has better stats. We know kobe has worse teammates.

Competition could potentially be the tiebreaker.

:facepalm

What a moronic statement, it was just posted that he received the same amount of help

Finals matchups: Durant greater than Reddick, rookie Lee, Pietrus:oldlol:

[Lebron23]

LeBron James.

[Calabis]

In total Lebron produced 2 points and 3 assists more than Kobe Bryant in his playoff run. That was off 43minutes he played longer than Kobe. That's such a small difference that you can't even use it as a valid argument.

:biggums:

Another straw man argument...Kobefans bringing up minutes/points...yet don't realize Kobe shot the ball 28 more times, yet still scored 2 less points

[guy]

This is completely false. The 09 Rockets were a much more potent and well rounded team than the Pacers. They were pretty much Indiana on Steroids with absurd D.

You would be correct aobut the 09 Rockets if they had Yao the whole series, but they didn't. Thats my point. You call the Pacers superstar-less, well the Rockets after Yao went down were basically a collection of role players. Roy Hibbert, David West, and Danny Granger were better players then anyone on that Rockets team after Yao went down.



The 12 Celtics were not better than the 09 Nuggets.:oldlol: Those Nuggets teams were far more stacked. You're looking at the fact that Miami had a rough time beating some of these lesser teams to justify how good they were. Fact is.. when Bosh went down, so did Miami's whole frontline. Thats one of the most important parts of any basketball team and presented a huge gaping hole that the other teams took advantage of.


Ummm, no, in fact thats exactly what alot of people are stupidly doing about the Pacers/Rockets argument. And yes, the 12 Celtics were better. Not more talented, but more experienced, disciplined, and mentally tougher? Yes. No one in their right mind would take that group of undisciplined headcases, although they had improved from previous years, over a proven champion that despite their age have continued to remain a threat to the best teams in the league.

[guy]

Nope, rockets is better than any of the 2012 playoff east team maybe even on par with the heat.. People forgot they won 20+ win a row even without Tmac and sometimes Yao Ming.. If they're completely healthy theres no doubt they won the championship that year..

They did that in the previous year and none of those games were they missing BOTH T-Mac and Yao.

[Calabis]

The main argument is that Lebron had almost an equal on his team, Dwayne Wade. Kobe had nothing close to Dwayne wade. Oh and the Lakers are Kobe's team, n the Heat is Wade's team.


Basketball is 90% mental. Kobe put Odom and everyone else in his killer state of mind. That should also be noted

But, yet he got the same amount of production from his teammates, which u and razor continue to ignore :rolleyes: f**king kobetards

[guy]

Its amazing how incredibly biased Kobe fans are to keep suggesting that that undermanned Rockets team was better then the Pacers. Shit, they also lost their backup center, Dikembe, in the previous series. Once Yao went down, they were starting 6'6 Chuck Hayes at center and their best player was Ron Artest, who Laker fans have chastised and complained about not even being that good a starting SF even right when he got there, which was the very next season. Its incredible how you are all trying to spin this.

Now like I asked before, no one in the media after Kobe's run was talking about it being some all-time great run. They were about Lebron's. Why do you think that is? Its not a favoritism thing, because they love talking about Kobe just as much as Lebron, specifically during that time. So why do you all think that is? How come in all these greatest ever playoff lists, nothing of Kobe usually shows up or its very low on these lists? Why do you all think that is?

[guy]

But, yet he got the same amount of production from his teammates, which u and razor continue to ignore :rolleyes: f**king kobetards

Did you miss the part where the playoffs are actually played 2 on 2 instead of 5 on 5? :oldlol:

[Dave3]

If I remember correctly it was actually not the case at all. The lakers won first 2 in blowouts, then aaron brooks scored like 30 against fisher the next 2 games, then lakers blow out again, aaron brooks scores 30 again, etc.

If aaron was able to show up on our court it'd be a different series. It wasnt just lakers going up and then playing down to comp multiple games in a row. They just werent winning on the road cuz aaron was going OFF.

rockets were good team.. better than pacers for sure. even without yao.
Actually no, the Rockets stole the first game in LA but the Lakers won the next 2. Then the rest of the series went Rockets/Lakers/Rockets/Lakers.

How can people argue though that the Rockets without their two best players (Yao and Tmac) are better than the Pacers.

Brooks, Wafer, Artest (2009 one) and Scola are not better than Collison, George, Granger, West and Hibbert. Not to mention a team missing 2 starters is not going to have better depth than a full healthy team.

[SilkkTheShocker]

It seems all the unbiased posters in this thead are saying Lebron. Hmmmm...

[Calabis]

Did you miss the part where the playoffs are actually played 2 on 2 instead of 5 on 5? :oldlol:

:roll:

I know he starts this thread with averages and stats...so I decide to get the other starters and 6th man stats....put them up and this moron thinks I changed Bosh's stats, when in reality I gave Bosh's average for 23 games...ala as if Bosh never missed games....now he is complaining about those averages....:confusedshrug:

[Calabis]

Its amazing how incredibly biased Kobe fans are to keep suggesting that that undermanned Rockets team was better then the Pacers. Shit, they also lost their backup center, Dikembe, in the previous series. Once Yao went down, they were starting 6'6 Chuck Hayes at center and their best player was Ron Artest, who Laker fans have chastised and complained about not even being that good a starting SF even right when he got there, which was the very next season. Its incredible how you are all trying to spin this.

Now like I asked before, no one in the media after Kobe's run was talking about it being some all-time great run. They were about Lebron's. Why do you think that is? Its not a favoritism thing, because they love talking about Kobe just as much as Lebron, specifically during that time. So why do you all think that is? How come in all these greatest ever playoff lists, nothing of Kobe usually shows up or its very low on these lists? Why do you all think that is?

:applause:

Let me start off the excuses....Kobe slept with a white girl, so the white media hates him

[RRR3]

Just consider this kobe fans: maybe, just maybe, LeBron is simply a better player than Kobe. Eventually you'll have to accept it.

[CeltsGarlic]

This is war between Kobe and LeBron and a healthy oppinion from Celtics fan who watched both teams in those years I must say LBJ run was more impressive(better).

[JtotheIzzo]

LeBron's is more impressive, any unbiased observer would note that.

[Bigsmoke]

This is completely false. The 09 Rockets were a much more potent and well rounded team than the Pacers. They were pretty much Indiana on Steroids with absurd D. The 12 Celtics were not better than the 09 Nuggets.:oldlol: Those Nuggets teams were far more stacked. You're looking at the fact that Miami had a rough time beating some of these lesser teams to justify how good they were. Fact is.. when Bosh went down, so did Miami's whole frontline. Thats one of the most important parts of any basketball team and presented a huge gaping hole that the other teams took advantage of.

Overall.. dysfunctional Knicks, young superstar-less Pacers, and old Celtics was the easiest road through the East since Lebron's Wizards days. Ill give props on the Thunder though.

The Rockets just look good against the Lakers because Fisher kept getting burned by the Rocket's PGs

The 2012 Pacers finished with a better record than any team in the West besides the Spurs and Thunder so WTF?

[ripthekik]

Just consider this kobe fans: maybe, just maybe, LeBron is simply a better player than Kobe. Eventually you'll have to accept it.
Lebron fans just consider this: definitely, lebron's legacy ain't going anywhere close to kobe's. this dude will be remembered for not being able to win, and had to team up with another top 3 player. He has yet to prove that he has to balls to will a team to victory. He can put up great stats, but will always need wade and bosh looking over him. Game on the line, you have lebron in your team? you gonna lose..

[TexasBloodMoney]

Kobe fans essentially hate every single player that has or will surpass Kobe's stats.

[I LUV KOBE]

Any unbiased real fan and not brainwashed by media will say Kobe 09 is better..

[Calabis]

So kobefans love using DRatings, so by using their own logic, Lebron had the much tougher road :roll:

Kobe Bryants Playoff Opponents D Rating for playoffs

Utah 114..1
Rockets 106.4
Nuggets 107.5
Magic 105.3

Lebron James Playoff Opponents D Rating for playoffs

Knicks 111.3
Pacers 100.9
Celtics 99.2
Thunder 107.4

Leading Scorers from those teams

Utah: Boozer 20.6 PPG
Rockets: Brooks 16.8 PPG
Nuggets: Anthony 27.2
Magic: Howard 20.3


Knicks: Anthony 27.8 PPG
Pacers: Granger 17.0 PPG
Celtics: Garnett 19.2 PPG
Thunder: Durant 28.5 PPG

Looking at the leading Scorers of those teams, who was challenged more on the defensive end...:eek: Who was working harder on the defensive end, by guarding more explosive scorers:confusedshrug:

and again

Kobe Teammates 2009: Bynum,Fisher,Odom,Ariza,Gasol

Playoff Prod Per Game(23):

56.2 PPG/29.8 Rebs/9.2 Ast/4.34 STLs/4.69 blks/49.07 FG%/68.04 FT%

Finals Prod Per Game(5):

60 PPG/30.2 Reb/7 Ast/5.2 Stl/5.2 blks/47.26 FG%/72.5 FT%



Lebrons Teammates 2012(Wade, Bosh, Chalmers, Haslem, Battier) :

Playoff Production (23 *Bosh only 14 Games played, I did not adjust for his missed games, I'm sure these numbers would drop):

59.9 PPG/26.3 Reb/10.6 Ast/4.3 Stl/3.74 Blks/47.18 FG%/77.7 FG%

Finals Prod Per Game(5):

61.8 PPG/25.8 Reb/10.2 Ast/4.6 Stl/0.29 Blks/46.84 FG%/81.2 FT%

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe..and it aint even close