Top 5 Perimeter defenders of all-time?

[StateOfMind12]

Here are the nominees for the top 5 in my opinion. I'm not really sure what the exact top 10 is though but I'm sure I will composite one eventually.

Keep in mind by perimeter defender, it is PG-SF, not just a certain position.

Michael Jordan
Sidney Moncrief
Walt Frazier
Gary Payton
Kobe Bryant
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Scottie Pippen
Lebron James
Jerry West
Alvin Robertson
Michael Cooper
Bruce Bowen
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Jason Kidd
John Havlicek
Bobby Jones

Not sure if Rodman should be considered or not since he could pretty much defend anything but he was primarily a PF?

Again, I believe the players I just listed have a good argument for the top 5 and are one of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

What about prime Garnett?

[fpliii]

in no particular order:

Payton
Frazier
Pippen
Pistons Rodman
Jordan

[noosaman]

Get lefraud off of that list.

Shawn Marion is probably the greatest perimeter defender yet didn't even make the list. You also left off Kirilenko.

[CardiacKemba]

Here are the nominees for the top 5 in my opinion. I'm not really sure what the exact top 10 is though but I'm sure I will composite one eventually.

Keep in mind by perimeter defender, it is PG-SF, not just a certain position.

Michael Jordan
Sidney Moncrief
Walt Frazier
Gary Payton
Kobe Bryant
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Scottie Pippen
Lebron James
Jerry West
Alvin Robertson
Michael Cooper
Bruce Bowen
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Jason Kidd
John Havlicek

Not sure if Rodman should be considered or not since he could pretty much defend anything but he was primarily a PF?

Again, I believe the players I just listed have a good argument for the top 5 and are one of the greatest perimeter defenders in NBA history.

IMO

Jordan
Bowen
Payton
Pippen
LeBron or Artest

Not sure about the order.

[StateOfMind12]

What about prime Garnett?
KG has always defended in the post. He occasionally defended perimeter players because he could but primarily he was a post defender.


Get lefraud off of that list.

Shawn Marion is probably the greatest perimeter defender yet didn't even make the list. You also left off Kirilenko.
:facepalm

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251716

[noosaman]

KG has always defended in the post. He occasionally defended perimeter players because he could but primarily he was a post defender.


:facepalm

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=251716

It was me who made that thread!

[Force]

For the people who I got to see play since the early to mid 80's, I'll say...

Payton
Jordan
Pippen
Moncrief
Cooper

Robertson got a ton of steals but it's been so long since I watched him play. At least I remember Sidney standing out with his defense and his awesome hair do.
Dumars is worthy of a mention.

Bowen is very good too. I'll say that the gap in defensive ability between Payton and Bowen is extremely wide though. Not close imo.

Kobe? lol you've all got to be either 15 years old or joking.

[IGotACoolStory]

The lack of Bobby Jones in this thread is very disappointing.

[tmacattack33]

Define your criteria.

Are you talking about the player's...

1. Man on man defense, strictly when guarding other guards out on the perimeter

2. Man on man defense as a whole (so a guy like Rodman would be on my list if you include this, since his man on man defense on bigger guys was amazing).

3. The player's defense as a whole (help defense is included + what was said in number 2 above)

[97 bulls]

in no particular order:

Payton
Frazier
Pippen
Pistons Rodman
Jordan
I tend to believe that Rodman couldve still been a dominant perimeter defender at virtually any time in his career. Phil Jackson called him the best athlete hed ever seen when he was with the Bulls

[97 bulls]

Jordan
Pippen
B. Jones
Rodman
Payton

In no order

[fpliii]

I tend to believe that Rodman couldve still been a dominant perimeter defender at virtually any time in his career. Phil Jackson called him the best athlete hed ever seen when he was with the Bulls

true, but he wasn't asked to be so we can't do much more than hypothesize

still though, with Detroit he was a top 5 all-time perimeter defender, with SA/Chicago he was a top 10 all-time post defender, and he's the greatest rebounder ever (pace-adjusted); HOF, 2 DPOYs and 5 rings

top 30 ever in terms of overall impact in my book

[97 bulls]

true, but he wasn't asked to be so we can't do much more than hypothesize

still though, with Detroit he was a top 5 all-time perimeter defender, with SA/Chicago he was a top 10 all-time post defender, and he's the greatest rebounder ever (pace-adjusted); HOF, 2 DPOYs and 5 rings

top 30 ever in terms of overall impact in my book
Great post all the way around.

[Sarcastic]

Jordan
Pippen
B. Jones
Rodman
Payton

In no order

There are too many great perimeter defenders for you to include Rodman over them, who was a primary post defender.

[fpliii]

There are too many great perimeter defenders for you to include Rodman over them, who was a primary post defender.

he hardly guarded anyone down low before going to SA...

with Detroit: 7 seasons, 296 games, 16345 minutes (5 all-defensive teams, 2 DPOY, 2 rings)

thereafter: 7 seasons, 362 games, 12494 minutes (3 all-defensive teams, 0 DPOY, 3 rings)

pretty even split if you ask me

[BuffaloBill]

Why is Lebron on that list?



But Bowen :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[L.Kizzle]

Top five in no order.

Walt Frazier
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton


Also, you forgot to mention Norm Van Lier, look him up. And K.C. Jones too.

[97 bulls]

There are too many great perimeter defenders for you to include Rodman over them, who was a primary post defender.
You know what. I think youre right. There is a difference between being a great perimeter defender and man defender. I dont remember Rodman ever being asked to be a help defender from the perimeter, or full court press, as well as the overall duties of a perimeter player. He was a great man defender on the perimeter and low post.

[ThaRegul8r]

There are too many great perimeter defenders for you to include Rodman over them, who was a primary post defender.

Evidently you haven't been watching basketball long enough to be able to recall Detroit Rodman, back-to-back Defensive Player of the Year.

[scandisk_]

Payton
Moncrief
Pip
MJ
Robertson/Jones

edit: should be top 10, I can't believe I friggin' left out Frazier/DJ/Bowen

[magnax1]

There are too many great perimeter defenders for you to include Rodman over them, who was a primary post defender.
I don't agree with that. Rodman guarded Bird better then anyone I've ever seen. Of course that was partly because he could guard his post game so well, but none the less, he was amazing in every type of defense.

[I LUV KOBE]

1. Pippen
2. MJ
3. Payton
4. Kobe
5. LBJ

BTW they're all pretty close except LBJ

[Sarcastic]

Evidently you haven't been watching basketball long enough to be able to recall Detroit Rodman, back-to-back Defensive Player of the Year.

Actually I have. You just don't know enough about basketball to know what guys like Michael Cooper, Walt Frazier, or Sidney Moncrief did on the perimeter when they were actually out there 100% of the time, as opposed to Rodman who would go out there for an assignment.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lindsey Hunter :pimp:

[L.Kizzle]

Lindsey Hunter :pimp:
Mookie Blaylock >> Lindsey Hunter.

[DatAsh]

In order

1. Pippen
2. Jordan
3. Payton
4. Moncrief
5. Jerry West

[Sarcastic]

I don't agree with that. Rodman guarded Bird better then anyone I've ever seen. Of course that was partly because he could guard his post game so well, but none the less, he was amazing in every type of defense.


Well if we are talking about all time great all around defenders, then I would definitely include Rodman on the list. But Rodman sticking a SF doesn't make him a true perimeter defender.


Half the time he was crashing the boards. He was not focused on the perimeter enough to be considered a true perimeter defender. And again, I am not saying he was incapable of defending the perimeter. But there are great perimeter defenders who are disrespected by putting Rodman ahead of them.

[jlauber]

Of course, no one will mention Russell, even though he could shut down opposing TEAMS from inside of 20 ft., with his help defense...and STILL get back to either intimidate a shooter, or unexpectedly block his shot. Just watch some footage of Russell against the Royals in the playoffs on YouTube.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Mookie Blaylock >> Lindsey Hunter.



Was it in the 97 playoffs where Mookie gave the Bulls hell in like game 1?

[L.Kizzle]

Of course, no one will mention Russell, even though he could shut down opposing TEAMS from inside of 20 ft., with his help defense...and STILL get back to either intimidate a shooter, or unexpectedly block his shot. Just watch some footage of Russell against the Royals in the playoffs on YouTube.
Actually, they need to mention Gus Johnson as much as Russell.

[mrbigshot1]

What about Tayshaun Prince?

[RIP CITY]

Scottie Pippen is the greatest perimeter defender of All-Time in my opinion, after that there are alot of options and alot of guys very close to each other. But, I'll give it a shot and then reserve the right to change it later if I remember someone I'm missing or just flat out change my mind, haha....

1. Scottie Pippen
2. Gary Payton
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bruce Bowen
5. Sidney Moncrief

Rodman is one of the Top 5 defensive players of All-Time regardless of perimeter/post but I would call him more of a post defender.

LeBron James' name should not even be mentioned in this thread, ever. If he's considered one of the best perimeter defenders ever than he is the most overrated defensive player ever. A couple highlight reel blocked shots and a couple stand out games of good defense does not make you one of the All-Time great defenders.

[SilkkTheShocker]

What about Tayshaun Prince?



His defensive prime wasn't that long imo. From 03-06 he was elite imo. He had a noticeable slip in the 06-07 season.

[StateOfMind12]

What about Tayshaun Prince?
I always thought he was an overrated defender to be quite honest. I never thought he was that great defensively but he was pretty good. He just wasn't as special as many people made out to be on defense.


His defensive prime wasn't that long imo. From 03-06 he was elite imo. He had a noticeable slip in the 06-07 season.
I'm kind of curious how people are making their top 5. Is it at their absolute defensive peak? How long they've been able to keep their defensive dominance? or.......

I think Kobe's defensive peak was actually better than Bowen's defensive peak but Bowen had much better consistency defensively and played elite defense for a longer period of time. I don't think I'll have either in the top 5 though but I'm just saying in this case it is hard to decide.

[mrbigshot1]

His defensive prime wasn't that long imo. From 03-06 he was elite imo. He had a noticeable slip in the 06-07 season.
I feel like he stopped trying once the Pistons stopped being competitive. I would like to see him play with a contender.

[L.Kizzle]

His defensive prime wasn't that long imo. From 03-06 he was elite imo. He had a noticeable slip in the 06-07 season.
Prince D is no special from guy like John Starks or Vernon Maxwell. He's not even on Shawn Marion's level from the same era.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Prince D is no special from guy like John Starks or Vernon Maxwell. He's not even on Shawn Marion's level from the same era.


Vernon Maxwell is one guy that could seriously pressure the ball-handler. Very underrated in that aspect.

[Asukal]

In no order:
- Frazier
- Payton
- Pippen
- Jordan
- Bowen

[SilkkTheShocker]

I always thought he was an overrated defender to be quite honest. I never thought he was that great defensively but he was pretty good. He just wasn't as special as many people made out to be on defense.


I'm kind of curious how people are making their top 5. Is it at their absolute defensive peak? How long they've been able to keep their defensive dominance? or.......

I think Kobe's defensive peak was actually better than Bowen's defensive peak but Bowen had much better consistency defensively and played elite defense for a longer period of time. I don't think I'll have either in the top 5 though but I'm just saying in this case it is hard to decide.


Agreed. I put Jordan in over Bowen, but its closer than people think. Kobe is also up there, but he played hard on defense the least consistenly of the three. Bowen is underrated imo. I thought he had a good case for DPOY in 07.

[Asukal]

Stockton not qualified? He is the steals leader is he not? Not a great man defender but great help defender. :confusedshrug:

[SilkkTheShocker]

In no order:
- Frazier
- Payton
- Pippen
- Jordan
- Bowen

No Rodman? IMo he is the best defender ever for his versatilty. Amazing how someone could be capable of guarding Jordan and Shaq.

[L.Kizzle]

No Rodman? IMo he is the best defender ever for his versatilty. Amazing how someone could be capable of guarding Jordan and Shaq.
Gus Johnson could do the same thing. Guard Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain. Gus is one of the more underrated defenders ever.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Stockton not qualified? He is the steals leader is he not? Not a great man defender but great help defender. :confusedshrug:


Steals are the most overrated stat in basketball. You would think Iverson was a good defender by looking at them. Not comparing Stockton to Iverson as defenders, though. He was a good help defender, but his man on man defense overshadows that at times imo. The guy got torched in some pretty big games. Payton, Porter, KJ, etc all took gigantic dumps on him. Those guys are good, but Stockton tends to get a pass.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Gus Johnson could do the same thing. Guard Jerry West or Wilt Chamberlain. Gus is one of the more underrated defenders ever.

Haven't seen enough game footage of Gus to really debate about it. But I will have to check him out more.

[DatAsh]

Agreed. I put Jordan in over Bowen, but its closer than people think. Kobe is also up there, but he played hard on defense the least consistenly of the three. Bowen is underrated imo. I thought he had a good case for DPOY in 07.

I don't really see the argument for Kobe over Bowen. Their peaks were close, but Kobe was no where near as consistent. Jerry West's defense is very underrated on this site as well. I know he's old and most people never saw him play, but he's probably better than Kobe or Bowen.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I don't really see the argument for Kobe over Bowen. Their peaks were close, but Kobe was no where near as consistent. Jerry West's defense is very underrated on this site as well. I know he's old and most people never saw him play, but he's probably better than Kobe or Bowen.



Agreed. I have Bowen over Kobe myself. I feel Bryant gets overrated and underrated on defense. Can the man defend? Yes, he is excellent when he tries. But he is overrated in the fact he been voted NBA All Defense so many time.

[DatAsh]

Of course, no one will mention Russell, even though he could shut down opposing TEAMS from inside of 20 ft., with his help defense...and STILL get back to either intimidate a shooter, or unexpectedly block his shot. Just watch some footage of Russell against the Royals in the playoffs on YouTube.

It's interesting that you should mention this. What really sets Russell a part from guys like Wilt/Robinson in my opinion as the best defender of all time is his extraordinary lateral quickness. That quickness allowed him to really defend the entire floor in a way that no other player really could or can. Olajuwon to me is very similar, albeit to a lesser degree. It's the ability to be more than just a paint protector that clearly sets those two ahead of the pack as the best defenders of all time in my opinion.

[magic chiongson]

pippen, payton, jordan are locks. the other two are debatable

[DatAsh]

pippen, payton, jordan are locks. the other two are debatable

Realistically, Pippen should be a lock for the #1 spot, Jordan/Payton is up in the air. I think your right in the sense that those are probably the top 3.

[Force]

there is no way in hell Kobe is/was a better defender than Bowen. That's really is ridiculous.

[StateOfMind12]

there is no way in hell Kobe is/was a better defender than Bowen. That's really is ridiculous.
At their absolute best/peak defensively? I would say it is definitely debatable and I would probably say that is true.

Kobe has no argument if you want to value defensive consistency season by season and longevity defensively though because Kobe wasn't always a consistent defender season by season. However, he does have an argument in terms of when they were at their absolute best defensively.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

there is no way in hell Kobe is/was a better defender than Bowen. That's really is ridiculous.
Bowen? That dirty ass motherfcuker?

:coleman:

[DatAsh]

At their absolute best/peak defensively? I would say it is definitely debatable and I would probably say that is true.

Kobe has no argument if you want to value defensive consistency season by season and longevity defensively though because Kobe wasn't always a consistent defender season by season. However, he does have an argument in terms of when they were at their absolute best defensively.

I tend to look at who's defense will give you the best chance to win the most championships over a ten year span or so. I'm sure everyone's is different, but that tends to be my criteria, and I think with that criteria Kobe falls somewhat short.

[Linspired]

1. jordan
2. pippen
3. bowen
4. payton
5. dumars

[StateOfMind12]

Top five in no order.

Walt Frazier
Sidney Moncrief
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Gary Payton

I like this top 5 although I might take out Payton and put in Bowen instead due to versatility.

If I had to rank it would probably be this...

1. Pippen
2. Jordan
3. Moncrief
4. Bowen
5. Frazier

I think Frazier and Payton are actually somewhat interchangeable on defense. I go back and fourth between the two because I heard that Frazier could be argued as a bit overrated defensively since he would gamble frequently. I think Frazier may still have been better defensively though since he usually made very clutch defensive plays.

[DatAsh]

I like this top 5 although I might take out Payton and put in Bowen instead due to versatility.

If I had to rank it would probably be this...

1. Pippen
2. Jordan
3. Moncrief
4. Bowen
5. Frazier

I think Frazier and Payton are actually somewhat interchangeable on defense. I go back and fourth between the two because I heard that Frazier could be argued as a bit overrated defensively since he would gamble frequently. I think Frazier may still have been better defensively though since he usually made very clutch defensive plays.

I think you're drastically underrated the glove and overrating bowen, nonetheless, love the thread, lets keep it going.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Who do you guys think is the all-time best pressure defender?

[RRR3]

Who do you guys think is the all-time best pressure defender?
Reggie Evans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv1cBN8M-9I
Dat Ball Pressure :bowdown:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Reggie Evans http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv1cBN8M-9I
Dat Ball Pressure :bowdown:


:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

[StateOfMind12]

Who do you guys think is the all-time best pressure defender?
I think Avery Bradley is already up there especially if you factor in how he doesn't have hand-checks to work with like most of the other great perimeter defenders did.

[YouAintGrizz]

Michael Jordan
Sidney Moncrief
Walt Frazier
Gary Payton
Kobe Bryant
Joe Dumars
Dennis Johnson
Scottie Pippen
Lebron James
Jerry West
Alvin Robertson
Michael Cooper
Bruce Bowen
Shane Battier
Ron Artest
Jason Kidd
John Havlicek
Bobby Jones


I think Tony Allen deserves an honorable mention.

[SilkkTheShocker]

I think Avery Bradley is already up there especially if you factor in how he doesn't have hand-checks to work with like most of the other great perimeter defenders did.


Bradley for sure. L. Kizzle also mentioned Maxwell and Blaylock, who were also great in that department. And as I mentioned earlier, Lindsey Hunter. Not the best, but that guy could really play some in your face defense. They used to put him on Lebron at times and he would have some trouble trying to get past him.

[L.Kizzle]

Bradley for sure. L. Kizzle also mentioned Maxwell and Blaylock, who were also great in that department. And as I mentioned earlier, Lindsey Hunter. Not the best, but that guy could really play some in your face defense. They used to put him on Lebron at times and he would have some trouble trying to get past him.
Tyrone Lue lol.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Tyrone Lue lol.

I don't know why, but I always liked Lue. I still remember him rocking the Iverson shooting sleeve, headband, and concord Jordan 11s in the Finals :pimp: