Updated Wilt Records

[jlauber]

Thanks to fpliii, we now have a new source that revises some of Chamberlain's earlier records.

Career 30-30 games:

Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)


I'll add other's to this thread as I have time...

[Richesly]

Honestly, could Wilt do this in today's NBA?

[bmulls]

Honestly, could Wilt do this in today's NBA?

You must be new here.

Don't encourage him.

[juju151111]

Honestly, could Wilt do this in today's NBA?
You know who ur taking to right?

[jlauber]

Honestly, could Wilt do this in today's NBA?

It's not so much as to what Wilt would do in this era, but rather, how come he was basically the ONLY player doing it in his?

[Maniak]

Honestly, could Wilt do this in today's NBA?
http://files.sharenator.com/Not_this_Shit_again_RE_Ending_the_Controversy-s300x391-95749-580.jpg

[Ancient Legend]

Wilt said he didn't think much of the records at the time. That if he had known much hype would be made about them in this era, he would have put them so far from the reach of anyone, specially the scoring records.

[Scholar]

Pretty impressive feats by the late great.

[9erempiree]

Thanks to fpliii, we now have a new source that revises some of Chamberlain's earlier records.

Career 30-30 games:

Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)


I'll add other's to this thread as I have time...

fpliii is my dawg....I guess he educated you.

[I LUV KOBE]

Weak era.. Even Brian Scalabrine can drop those numbers or better..

[28renyoy]

It's not so much as to what Wilt would do in this era, but rather, how come he was basically the ONLY player doing it in his?

Because noone gave a flying fvck about basketball back then? The same reason almost every quarterback blew balls back in the 50's-70's. The position wasn't developed/utilized properly.

Wilt in today's league is probably a nice 18-20 ppg 10~ rpg 3 block kind of player on mediocre efficiency.

He took a lot of poor shots and would get moved off the block, speaking in terms of early Wilt. He was too skinny to average the 15-25 rpg he did during his prime. Hell a 6'5 small forward was averaging 20 rpg back then

[jlauber]

Wilt said he didn't think much of the records at the time. That if he had known much hype would be made about them in this era, he would have put them so far from the reach of anyone, specially the scoring records.

I don't think there was any question that Chamberlain could have put the scoring records out of reach. He dramatically cut back his shooting from the '67 thru the '69 seasons, but in every one of those seasons, he had the league high game (several in '68.) And when his new coach asked him to score before the start of the '70 season, Wilt went out and led the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg on (.579 shooting) in the first nine games. Unfortunately, he injured his knee, and was never the same again. Still, as an example, in 10 of his 11 H2H's (we don't have all the data from the 11th) with 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier (in his last two seasons), Chamberlain averaged 24.5 ppg on .783 shooting. Clearly, had he just overpowered his peers in his last 3-4 years, he could have scored much more even then.

[Kews1]

Weak era.. Even Brian Scalabrine can drop those numbers or better..
:lol

[jlauber]

Because noone gave a flying fvck about basketball back then? The same reason almost every quarterback blew balls back in the 50's-70's. The position wasn't developed/utilized properly.

Wilt in today's league is probably a nice 18-20 ppg 10~ rpg 3 block kind of player on mediocre efficiency.

He took a lot of poor shots and would get moved off the block, speaking in terms of early Wilt. He was too skinny to average the 15-25 rpg he did during his prime. Hell a 6'5 small forward was averaging 20 rpg back then

I can understand why you are in a sea of red...

[fpliii]

I don't think there was any question that Chamberlain could have put the scoring records out of reach. He dramatically cut back his shooting from the '67 thru the '69 seasons, but in every one of those seasons, he had the league high game (several in '68.) And when his new coach asked him to score before the start of the '70 season, Wilt went out and led the league in scoring, at 32.2 ppg on (.579 shooting) in the first nine games. Unfortunately, he injured his knee, and was never the same again. Still, as an example, in 10 of his 11 H2H's (we don't have all the data from the 11th) with 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier (in his last two seasons), Chamberlain averaged 24.5 ppg on .783 shooting. Clearly, had he just overpowered his peers in his last 3-4 years, he could have scored much more even then.

do you need the data?

if you give me the date I'll see what I can do

[jlauber]

do you need the data?

if you give me the date I'll see what I can do

I'm sure you can, but I don't think it is necessary. I already know that Wilt was capable of 30-35 ppg in the '67 thru '69 seasons. Rick Barry, who led the league in scoring in '67 at 35.6 ppg, "thanked" Chamberlain for "letting" him win the scoring title.

[Deuce Bigalow]

*.

[PHILA]

would get moved off the block
:lol



As a skinny rookie in '59, Chamberlain could clean & jerk 265 lbs & military press 210 lbs. By the mid 60's those numbers increased to 435 lbs & 400 lbs. According to esteemed author Gary M. Pomerantz in Wilt, 1962: The Night of 100 Points And the Dawn of a New Era, Chamberlain could deadlift 625 lbs.





Sports Illustrated - October 26, 1959

Consider the following: he has run the quarter mile in 49 seconds flat, bettered 6 feet 7 in the high jump, put the shot 51 feet, can lift 265 pounds in the clean-and-jerk and 210 in the military press. For none of these feats did Chamberlain prepare himself through normal training; they were casual, offhand achievements by an athlete who has always devoted his free time and effort to basketball.



[I]November 29, 1965

NEW YORK (NEA)

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=PHILA]:lol



As a skinny rookie in '59, Chamberlain could clean & jerk 265 lbs & military press 210 lbs. By the mid 60's those numbers increased to 435 lbs & 400 lbs. According to esteemed author Gary M. Pomerantz in Wilt, 1962: The Night of 100 Points And the Dawn of a New Era, Chamberlain could deadlift 625 lbs.





Sports Illustrated - October 26, 1959

Consider the following: he has run the quarter mile in 49 seconds flat, bettered 6 feet 7 in the high jump, put the shot 51 feet, can lift 265 pounds in the clean-and-jerk and 210 in the military press. For none of these feats did Chamberlain prepare himself through normal training; they were casual, offhand achievements by an athlete who has always devoted his free time and effort to basketball.



[I]November 29, 1965

NEW YORK (NEA)

[jlauber]

Once again, for all those that claim that the pace of Wilt's era was significantly higher, how come it was ONLY Chamberlain putting up those huge numbers?

Take Wilt out of that era, and Rick Barry's 35.6 ppg is the highest full-time scoring season in those 14 years. Not only that, but the next best marks were Kareem's 34.8 ppg in 71-72, Baylor's 34.8 in 60-61, and Archibald's 34.0 in 72-73 and Baylor's 34.0 ppg in 62-63. After that, it is Kareem's 31.7 ppg in 70-71 and Bellamy's 31.6 ppg in 61-62.

So, NO, there were not an inordinate amount of 30+ ppg seasons in the Wilt-era, and even Barry's 35.6 ppg is behind MJ's 37.1 ppg in 86-87 (in a league that averaged 109.9 ppg.) Hell, Kobe averaged 35.4 ppg in a league that averaged 97.0 ppg.

Then, think about this: Aside from Wilt, there were FIVE 60+ point games DURING the Wilt-era (Chamberlain had 32 BTW.) Baylor had four, and West had one...that's it. How come? Where were all the other players putting up 60+ point games IN the Wilt era?

Furthermore, while there were definitely more rebounds to be had in the Chamberlain era, if you take Russell and Wilt out of that period, there were a TOTAL of FOUR 20+ rpg seasons (Thurmond with a 21.1 rpg season, Pettit with a 20.2 rpg season, and Lucas with 21.0 and 20.2 rpg seasons.) How come?

And even the "pace" theories are overblown. In Wilt's highest paced season, 61-62, the NBA averaged 118.8 ppg. AND, by the end of the decade, in 68-69, it was down to 112.3 ppg (BTW, Chamberlain had games of 60 and 66 in that 68-69 season.) Once again, in the 80's, team's were routinely around 110 ppg.

Oh, and how about FG%'s in the Wilt era? Take Chamberlain, and his .595, .649, .683, and .727 seasons out of the equation, and the next best mark was Johnny Green's .587.

Keep in mind that KAREEM played FOUR years IN the Chamberlain-era, too. If Wilt's stats are so exaggerated, how come Kareem didn't come along and just blow them all away?

Hell, Kareem's HIGHEST scoring game was "only" 55 points. Chamberlain had those two 60+ point games just the year before Kareem came into the NBA. Not only that, but Kareem faced many of the same centers that Wilt did, as well. Where was Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff? Where was Kareem's 66 point game against Fox? Where was Kareem's 60 point game against Dierking? Where was Kareem's 52 and 58 point games against Reed? And where were Kareem's FOUR 60+ point games (including a high of 73) against Bellamy?

And, as I have mentioned many times now, Kareem faced Thurmond in 43 H2H games. He had a total of seven games of 30+ against Nate, with a high game of 34 (BTW, he also had seven games under 20 against him.) Not only that, but Kareem seldom shot 50% against Thurmond, and an educated estimate has his career FG% against Thurmond of around 43%. In his three H2H playoff series against Nate, he shot .486, .428, and .405.

Now, a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain, in eleven straight games from their last H2H in the 64-65 season, thru nine games in the 65-66 season, and even their first matchup in the 66-67 season, AVERAGED 30 ppg. Included in those 11 games were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 (and Wilt was outscoring Nate by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15 and even 45-13.) Not only that, but Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot Nate by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and in the '67 Finals, by a staggering .560 to .343 margin (all while easily outrebounding him in every series.)

Once again...why ONLY Wilt?

[brantonli]

Because noone gave a flying fvck about basketball back then? The same reason almost every quarterback blew balls back in the 50's-70's. The position wasn't developed/utilized properly.

Wilt in today's league is probably a nice 18-20 ppg 10~ rpg 3 block kind of player on mediocre efficiency.

He took a lot of poor shots and would get moved off the block, speaking in terms of early Wilt. He was too skinny to average the 15-25 rpg he did during his prime. Hell a 6'5 small forward was averaging 20 rpg back then


http://www.ourspacer.com/images/graphics/celeb-demotivational-posters/Aliens-vs-Predator,-shit-just-got-real.jpg

28renyoy vs jlauber who will win?

[jlauber]

Because noone gave a flying fvck about basketball back then? The same reason almost every quarterback blew balls back in the 50's-70's. The position wasn't developed/utilized properly.

Wilt in today's league is probably a nice 18-20 ppg 10~ rpg 3 block kind of player on mediocre efficiency.

He took a lot of poor shots and would get moved off the block, speaking in terms of early Wilt. He was too skinny to average the 15-25 rpg he did during his prime. Hell a 6'5 small forward was averaging 20 rpg back then

PHILA already blew all of this nonsense away, but by the mid-60's, Wilt weighed as much as 320 lbs. And, in his '65 season, he was at 290 lbs (and Hank Stram timed him at 4.6 in the 40 BTW.)

Regarding his strength, all anyone has to do is just GOOGLE Wilt's bench. The internet is PLASTERED with accounts of 500+. Furthermore, where are the legitimate accounts that would DISPUTE them?

As for his overall rebounding, in Wilt's LAST season, in a league with players like Thurmond, Kareem, Bellamy, Reed, Unseld, Lanier, Hayes, Silas, Boerwinkle, et.al, Chamberlain LED the league (and by TWO per game.) THEN, in his 17 post-season games (against Boerwinkle, Thurmond, and Reed), Chamberlain averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season in which the average team grabbed 50.6 rpg...which translates to about 19 rpg in THIS year's post-season. Oh, and after that season, the next highest mark was Kareem's 17.3 rpg in the 76-77 post-season.

Incidently, take Russell and Wilt out of the Chamberlain-era, and there were a TOTAL of FOUR 20+ seasons (Thurmond with a 21.3 rpg season, Pettit with a 20.2 rpg season, and Lucas with seasons of 21.1 rpg, and 20.4 rpg.) Where were all the other players grabbing 20 rpg?

[jlauber]

Some more records that some here may not be aware of...

Chamberlain has the THREE highest "perfect games from the field" in NBA history, with games of 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18 (BTW, he also had an 18-19 game.)

Wilt also made 35 straight FGAs.

If "estimated" blocks are even remotely close, Chamberlain had the most Triple Doubles in NBA history, and certainly the most Quad-Doubles.

And why the NBA lists Elmore Smith's 17 block game in '74 as the record is beyond me. True, blocked shots were not "officially" kept until that season, BUT, in a NATIONALL TELEVISED game in 1968, Chamberlain had a RECORDED 23 blocks. There are also now MANY "estimated" 20+ block games by Chamberlain (but not verifiable.)

Wilt also had a KNOWN Triple Double game of 53 points, on 24-29 shooting, with 32 rebounds, and 14 assists. Not only that, but he had "estimated" blocks and steals of 24 and 11 respectively.

Chamberlain also had a Triple Double game in the post-season of 16 points, 30 rebounds, and 19 assists (and a questionable "estimated" 20 blocked shots.)

Chamberlain also has the ONLY 20-20-20 game in NBA history (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists.)

Wilt has FOUR of the SIX 60+ games on .700 shooting (Karl Malone and David Thompson each have one.) And his .829 mark (29-35) is the all-time record. BTW, that 66 point game was his LAST 60+ point game.

More to come...

[Alan Ogg]

I've been finally able to create an account after browsing ISH all season long. In that short time, it hasn't been hard to notice jlauber's love for Wilt.

Here's my two cents. Why only Wilt? Maybe because Wilt actually was the greatest player from that era. That explains why only Wilt.

However, that doesn't mean that Wilt put up numbers close to that in today's NBA. Any notion that he'd be averaging 40 points a game today is ridiculous.

Even though it's difficult to compare eras, according to an analysis I did a while ago that adjusted for minutes played and share of league averages (as well as some other minor adjustments), if these old schoolers played in Shaq's era (also adding in Kareem for you), this is how they'd compare per 36 minutes:

Wilt 22 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 55% shooting
Shaq 24.5 points, 11 rebounds, 2.5 assists a game on 58% shooting
Kareem 22 points, 9.75 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 54% shooting

As you can see, they are all pretty similar which isn't too surprising considering these are 3 of the top 10 of all time.

Take that with all the credibility of my first post :D

I also have some comparisons on Jordan vs. Kobe, Oscar vs. Magic that I can post at some other time.

[Punpun]

And the battle of the Cut and paste began.

[Asukal]

If he is sooooo dominating and above everybody else, why couldn't he just straight out dominate every team and win every championship? Why? Because against true competition, Wilt isn't really far and away better than every other all time great center (he may be the best but that is debatable). Because if we just look at stats, it would mean Wilt was unstoppable but that is not the case since he only won twice. :confusedshrug:

[Pointguard]

If he is sooooo dominating and above everybody else, why couldn't he just straight out dominate every team and win every championship? Why? Because against true competition, Wilt isn't really far and away better than every other all time great center (he may be the best but that is debatable). Because if we just look at stats, it would mean Wilt was unstoppable but that is not the case since he only won twice. :confusedshrug:
Jordan couldn't win by himself, neither did Shaq and they were the most dominant of this era.

[LikeABosh]

Wilt is an all time great, top 10 in my list. But he would not come close to putting up those numbers in todays NBA

[DatAsh]

Regarding his strength, all anyone has to do is just GOOGLE Wilt's bench. The internet is PLASTERED with accounts of 500+. Furthermore, where are the legitimate accounts that would DISPUTE them?



Sorry, but Wilt never benched 500+. Anyone who knows anything about power-lifting or bodybuilding knows that tale is complete hogwash. I might be able to believe a 350 pound bench, but even that's probably a bit of a stretch considering his frame. A 300+ pound bench is probably more realistic. Even with a 300 pound bench your looking at possibly the most naturally strong guy in nba history. Long armed folk are generally terrible on the bench

[Pointguard]

I've been finally able to create an account after browsing ISH all season long. In that short time, it hasn't been hard to notice jlauber's love for Wilt.

Here's my two cents. Why only Wilt? Maybe because Wilt actually was the greatest player from that era. That explains why only Wilt.

However, that doesn't mean that Wilt put up numbers close to that in today's NBA. Any notion that he'd be averaging 40 points a game today is ridiculous.

Even though it's difficult to compare eras, according to an analysis I did a while ago that adjusted for minutes played and share of league averages (as well as some other minor adjustments), if these old schoolers played in Shaq's era (also adding in Kareem for you), this is how they'd compare per 36 minutes:

Wilt 22 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 55% shooting
Shaq 24.5 points, 11 rebounds, 2.5 assists a game on 58% shooting
Kareem 22 points, 9.75 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 54% shooting

As you can see, they are all pretty similar which isn't too surprising considering these are 3 of the top 10 of all time.

Take that with all the credibility of my first post :D

I also have some comparisons on Jordan vs. Kobe, Oscar vs. Magic that I can post at some other time.
How are you factoring rebounds? Wilt was a go getter of rebounds and would still be stronger than anybody else today quite easily. He just had a knack for rebounding and he frequently dominated the only other guy that could rebound like him. At 36 years old he averaged 15.5 rebounds per 36 min. Shaq was never a great rebounder and had way too many years where 6'5 and 6'7 guys outrebounded him by 3,4 or 5 more rebounds per game. Just no way Shaq and Wilt would be that close in rebounds.

[ThunderStruk022]

I think we've seen this exact same thread and exact same posts roughly 100 times from jlauber. I don't understand why you feel the need to constantly repeat yourself with the same long-winded rambling posts. It comes off as you being nothing but an insecure Wilt fanboy.

Any knowledgeable fan knows and understands Wilt was/is an all-time great. Those that don't are more-or-less trolling. On the sheer numbers alone he's a top 5-6 player all-time, and if you want to consider him top 3, I won't argue. But good god jlauber...this isn't the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or even sixth time I've seen you post these same exact stats and whatnot. At some point it goes from being informative and refreshing, to being extremely annoying.

[Pointguard]

Sorry, but Wilt never benched 500+. Anyone who knows anything about power-lifting or bodybuilding knows that tale is complete hogwash. I might be able to believe a 350 pound bench, but even that's probably a bit of a stretch considering his frame. A 300+ pound bench is probably more realistic. Even with a 300 pound bench your looking at possibly the most naturally strong guy in nba history. Long armed folk are generally terrible on the bench
You're way off. Dwight Howard was doing reps of 365 at Olympic trials in '08 (this was provided by the poster CavsFTW). DH could have gone higher. In '08 his chest wasn't as big as it is now. He has one of the longest arm spans in the league. You never hear stories of how strong DH is. Arnold Schwanegger, steriod buffed and all said Wilt was the strongest guy he ever seen (including fellow pill poppers). DH is a good 40 lbs lighter than Wilt in his last years.

[Pointguard]

Any knowledgeable fan knows and understands Wilt was/is an all-time great. Those that don't are more-or-less trolling. On the sheer numbers alone he's a top 5-6 player all-time, and if you want to consider him top 3, I won't argue. But good god jlauber...this isn't the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or even sixth time I've seen you post these same exact stats and whatnot. At some point it goes from being informative and refreshing, to being extremely annoying.
Now we know why Jlauber repeats them.

[ThunderStruk022]

And why the NBA lists Elmore Smith's 17 block game in '74 as the record is beyond me. True, blocked shots were not "officially" kept until that season, BUT, in a NATIONALL TELEVISED game in 1968, Chamberlain had a RECORDED 23 blocks.

I could way off here, but the reason Wilt's block record isn't listed as the NBA record is probably because it WASN'T AN OFFICIAL STAT AT THE TIME! But I could be wrong.


More to come...

Why? It's not like it's going to be information you haven't posted a few dozen times before.

[jlauber]

I think we've seen this exact same thread and exact same posts roughly 100 times from jlauber. I don't understand why you feel the need to constantly repeat yourself with the same long-winded rambling posts. It comes off as you being nothing but an insecure Wilt fanboy.

Any knowledgeable fan knows and understands Wilt was/is an all-time great. Those that don't are more-or-less trolling. On the sheer numbers alone he's a top 5-6 player all-time, and if you want to consider him top 3, I won't argue. But good god jlauber...this isn't the first, second, third, fourth, fifth, or even sixth time I've seen you post these same exact stats and whatnot. At some point it goes from being informative and refreshing, to being extremely annoying.

And yet, you continually come back for more.

These types of responses fascinate me. I have even read posters respond with "didn't read"...and a short time later, argue one of my points.

[ThunderStruk022]

Now we know why Jlauber repeats them.

Huh? I go back-and-forth on Wilt at #4 and #5 all-time. He put up the kind of numbers that would make him a top 12-15 player more than likely even if he never won a ring. You can't just ignore them regardless of the era. And while two rings probably does more harm than good for someone of his incredible talent, it is enough to make him a top 5-6 player of all-time.

[Alan Ogg]

How are you factoring rebounds? Wilt was a go getter of rebounds and would still be stronger than anybody else today quite easily. He just had a knack for rebounding and he frequently dominated the only other guy that could rebound like him. At 36 years old he averaged 15.5 rebounds per 36 min. Shaq was never a great rebounder and had way too many years where 6'5 and 6'7 guys outrebounded him by 3,4 or 5 more rebounds per game. Just no way Shaq and Wilt would be that close in rebounds.

I looked at each players rebounds per 36 min / league team average per 36.

From 59-60 to 72-73, the NBA team average per 36 was:

55.125
54.975
53.55
50.025
49.425
50.475
51.15
50.475
49.65
42.675
39.675
39.825
38.325
37.95

compare that to Shaq's era where the average team rebounds per 36 minutes was 31 to 32 every one of the years.

So basically, I looked at the players' shares of rebounds compared to league team average.

[ThunderStruk022]

And yet, you continually come back for more.

These types of responses fascinate me. I have even read posters respond with "didn't read"...and a short time later, argue one of my points.

I "didn't read" an entire post. I read the first line or two of a couple and realized I've read this before. And I'm not arguing any of your points. I agree, Wilt was great, but you just constantly post the same things over and over and over again.

[jlauber]

I could way off here, but the reason Wilt's block record isn't listed as the NBA record is probably because it WASN'T AN OFFICIAL STAT AT THE TIME! But I could be wrong.



Why? It's not going to be information you haven't posted a few dozen times before.

You are exactly right. It wasn't an "official" record. BUT, it was a RECORDED record. Did the NBA change the GAME in the 73-74 season? Hell no. And since we KNOW that Wilt blocked 23 shots in that game..why HIDE it?

We KNOW that Chamberlain scored 100 points in a game, too (although no footage exists.) That occurred before 73-74, and yet it counts as the "official" record.

And once again, if you are in fear of reading something repetitive, why not do yourself a favor, and completely ignore the topic?

[Alan Ogg]

For further comparison, here are my numbers per 36 if these players played for the Shaq era...

Wilt 22 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 55% shooting
Shaq 24.5 points, 11 rebounds, 2.5 assists a game on 58% shooting
Kareem 22 points, 9.75 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 54% shooting
Hakeem 20.5 points, 11 rebounds, 2.25 assists a game on 49% shooting
Moses 19.25 points, 12 rebounds, 1.25 assists a game on 47% shooting

[Alan Ogg]

So my numbers put Wilt on par with Moses as rebounding forces. Take that as you may. I'll have to look at other top centers... but he's pretty much at the top.

[Alan Ogg]

Tomorrow, I'll add Rodman, Garnett, and Howard to the comparison to see how everyone shapes up.

[jlauber]

Sorry, but Wilt never benched 500+. Anyone who knows anything about power-lifting or bodybuilding knows that tale is complete hogwash. I might be able to believe a 350 pound bench, but even that's probably a bit of a stretch considering his frame. A 300+ pound bench is probably more realistic. Even with a 300 pound bench your looking at possibly the most naturally strong guy in nba history. Long armed folk are generally terrible on the bench

This has been discussed here ad nauseum. First of all, there are articles, in the mid-60's, and long before Chamberlain ever reached his max strength, that had him benching 400+ lbs.

We also not only have an eye-witness account, when Chamberlain was at age 59, in which he benched 465 lbs, in Cherry's autobiography, there was a weight lifter by the name of Fluke Flucker, who was 6-5 and 250 lbs., and was known to have benched over 500 lbs., who worked out with Wilt in the 90's, and who claimed that Chamberlain was the strongest man he ever met.

BTW, there were many doubters on this very forum who questioned Wilt's leaping ability, too. Then, in the last year we now have VIDEO FOOTAGE of a young Chamberlain, blocking a shot, in which his fingertips are within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. Keep in mind that in that block, Wilt has no time to react, goes straight up (no running start), and blocks the shot with his off-hand.

Which is interesting because Sport Science recently did a piece in which Dwight Howard, in a second attempt, and with a running start, reached 12' 6 " on the backboard.

Now, in addition, we have TWO eye-witness accounts, one by long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, and the other by well respected Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, each of whom claimed to have witnessed Chamberlain touching the TOP of the backboard.

THEN, we have a VIDEO CONVERSATION, in which TEX WINTER claims that he witnessed a high school Wilt (probably at less than 7-0) taking three steps from behind the FT line, and with a leap at the line, dunking the ball.

And Wilt's college coach rolled out a 12 ft. rim, and there are reports that Wilt was dunking on it.

Once again, the internet is PLASTERED with accounts of Wilt benching 500+ lbs.

Furthermore, Chamberlain played basketball in college, and the pros, for some 18 years. He played with and against probably thousands of players. He played for and against dozens of coach's. He was hounded by probably thousands in the media. And he was watched by millions. And after Wilt retired, and for the next 30 years he was seen working out, probably by hundreds, if not thousands. Where are the those legitimate accounts that DISPUTE these claims? Surely someone who played with, or maybe popped in on, Chamberlain, would have seen him FAILING to bench a certain weight. Or perhaps catching Wilt in an attempt to touch the top of the backboard, and FAILING.

If these staggering physical achievements didn't actually occur, where are those that would DISPUTE them?

[Linspired]

I'm not gonna discredit what Wilt has done. He really was a freak of nature. He was so far ahead of his time. If Wilt is playing in today's era, i believe he would put up 26/16.

i have a few question for you jlauber, you seem like Wilt historian.

1. in 1962 wilt was 40% of the offense. i believe this is the reason why he could avg 50pt because basically wilt was half of the offense. he was allowed to score 50pt. but in 1966 his scoring took a huge dive while the team was able to score more. he was only 19% of the total offense and that's not even 1/5th. and strangely team had the best record and 1966-67 sixers are regarded as one of the greatest team of all time. did Hannum just came in and ordered wilt to share the ball because that's what celtics did? how did Wilt take this? how did media view this 'new wilt?' wouldn't the media miss the dominant wilt?

2. I believe wilt could avg 50 not because he was in a position to average 50pt playing entire 48+ minute because the game & competition was different. david robinson scored 71 pts one night because he got a green light. wouldn't david robinson avg 50pt in 1962 if he had a green light too? wouldn't shaq be able to avg 50pt also? what makes wilt so different than these 2? was wilt better post up player? better jump shooter? i know wilt was a better rebounder, but wouldn't shaq & drob also be able to grab 25rebounds in 1962?

3. i do believe wilt had the greatest stamina of all big men, but i can tell you orlando shaq could play 48 minutes against college kids, but not in the NBA. because you can take a breather or two against inferior competition and just get away with it. when you are that dominant against the competition it's ok to take play off here and there. but you can't when you are going up against hakeem, ewing and etc. do you believe wilt could avg 48 minutes in today's nba? what would be his avg in today's nba?

4. I do not believe wilt weighed anything over 310lb. I also don't believe his ridiculous vertical. but i can buy 35-37 inch max vert for young wilt. physically young wilt would look like slightly taller javal mcgee in today's nba. agree or disagree? what's you honest opinion on wilt's vertical? do you believe wilt had legit 40 inch vertical?

[LikeABosh]

This has been discussed here ad nauseum. First of all, there are articles, in the mid-60's, and long before Chamberlain ever reached his max strength, that had him benching 400+ lbs.

We also not only have an eye-witness account, when Chamberlain was at age 59, in which he benched 465 lbs, in Cherry's autobiography, there was a weight lifter by the name of Fluke Flucker, who was 6-5 and 250 lbs., and was known to have benched over 500 lbs., who worked out with Wilt in the 90's, and who claimed that Chamberlain was the strongest man he ever met.

BTW, there were many doubters on this very forum who questioned Wilt's leaping ability, too. Then, in the last year we now have VIDEO FOOTAGE of a young Chamberlain, blocking a shot, in which his fingertips are within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. Keep in mind that in that block, Wilt has no time to react, goes straight up (no running start), and blocks the shot with his off-hand.

Which is interesting because Sport Science recently did a piece in which Dwight Howard, in a second attempt, and with a running start, reached 12' 6 " on the backboard.

Now, in addition, we have TWO eye-witness accounts, one by long time Sixer trainer, Al Domenico, and the other by well respected Philly sports icon, Sonny Hill, each of whom claimed to have witnessed Chamberlain touching the TOP of the backboard.

THEN, we have a VIDEO CONVERSATION, in which TEX WINTER claims that he witnessed a high school Wilt (probably at less than 7-0) taking three steps from behind the FT line, and with a leap at the line, dunking the ball.

And Wilt's college coach rolled out a 12 ft. rim, and there are reports that Wilt was dunking on it.

Once again, the internet is PLASTERED with accounts of Wilt benching 500+ lbs.

Furthermore, Chamberlain played basketball in college, and the pros, for some 18 years. He played with and against probably thousands of players. He played for and against dozens of coach's. He was hounded by probably thousands in the media. And he was watched by millions. And after Wilt retired, and for the next 30 years he was seen working out, probably by hundreds, if not thousands. Where are the those legitimate accounts that DISPUTE these claims? Surely someone who played with, or maybe popped in on, Chamberlain, would have seen him FAILING to bench a certain weight. Or perhaps catching Wilt in an attempt to touch the top of the backboard, and FAILING.

If these staggering physical achievements didn't actually occur, where are those that would DISPUTE them?
:biggums: why are you on Wilts nuts so hard? I've seen posters be homers of certain players but you are something else. You write freaking essays about this guy. Wilt you uncle or something?

[jlauber]

For further comparison, here are my numbers per 36 if these players played for the Shaq era...

Wilt 22 points, 12 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 55% shooting
Shaq 24.5 points, 11 rebounds, 2.5 assists a game on 58% shooting
Kareem 22 points, 9.75 rebounds, 3 assists a game on 54% shooting
Hakeem 20.5 points, 11 rebounds, 2.25 assists a game on 49% shooting
Moses 19.25 points, 12 rebounds, 1.25 assists a game on 47% shooting

So, evidently you are claiming that, one, Wilt's NBA played at TWICE the pace that Shaq's era did...which is completely ABSURD. Abnd secondly, you are PUNISHING Wilt for being capable of playing 48 mpg.

Regarding the latter, how about this? A PRIME ATHLETIC Kareem, at age 25, LED the NBA in mpg in 71-72 at 44.2 mpg. In their post-season H2H, and in the clinching game six come-from-behind win, it was WELL DOCUMENTED that a 36 year old Chamberlain, playing every minute of the game, was RUNNING Kareem to death in that 4th quarter, as well as POUNDING him into submission. Wilt THOROUGHLY outplayed Kareem down that stretch.

Here again, no other player in NBA HISTORY, has ever had the stamina that Wilt had.

Incidently, Shaq played in an NBA that shot the ball at a considerably higher percentage than what Chamberlain's era did...and yet, according to your numbers, Wilt would only raise his FG% from .540 to .550?

And how do explain 6-9 Kevin Love averaging 15.2 rpg in 37 mpg just TWO years ago? Would he have been outrebounding a Wilt was who was much taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, and much more athletic?

[DatAsh]

You're way off. Dwight Howard was doing reps of 365 at Olympic trials in '08 (this was provided by the poster CavsFTW). DH could have gone higher. In '08 his chest wasn't as big as it is now. He has one of the longest arm spans in the league. You never hear stories of how strong DH is. Arnold Schwanegger, steriod buffed and all said Wilt was the strongest guy he ever seen (including fellow pill poppers). DH is a good 40 lbs lighter than Wilt in his last years.

I don't believe that report at all. According to the research I've done on various bodybuilding forums I'm a member of, Dwight's one rep max is 345. No way he's putting 365 6-12 times. Even still, Dwight has a better frame for bench pressing than Chamberlain. Chamberlain is certainly quite a bit stronger than Dwight, but I'd imagine their bench presses would be relatively similar.

If that report is indeed true,and you can provide a legitimate source to back up your claim, I might be able to see 400 for Wilt as a one rep max.

[Linspired]

IMO, wilt's stories are alot like andre the giant's stories. giant's drinking story, insane monster like strength, his wrestling ability, his height/weight, and etc all exaggerated.

but that doesn't change the fact that he was the original giant(7ft even 500lb) and he was strong as hell.

[Linspired]

So, evidently you are claiming that, one, Wilt's NBA played at TWICE the pace that Shaq's era did...which is completely ABSURD. Abnd secondly, you are PUNISHING Wilt for being capable of playing 48 mpg.

Regarding the latter, how about this? A PRIME ATHLETIC Kareem, at age 25, LED the NBA in mpg in 71-72 at 44.2 mpg. In their post-season H2H, and in the clinching game six come-from-behind win, it was WELL DOCUMENTED that a 36 year old Chamberlain, playing every minute of the game, was RUNNING Kareem to death in that 4th quarter, as well as POUNDING him into submission. Wilt THOROUGHLY outplayed Kareem down that stretch.

Here again, no other player in NBA HISTORY, has ever had the stamina that Wilt had.

Incidently, Shaq played in an NBA that shot the ball at a considerably higher percentage than what Chamberlain's era did...and yet, according to your numbers, Wilt would only raise his FG% from .540 to .550?

And how do explain 6-9 Kevin Love averaging 15.2 rpg in 37 mpg just TWO years ago? Would he have been outrebounding a Wilt was who was much taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, and much more athletic?


you can't just claim wilt has the best stamina just because he played the most minutes. I don't believe Wilt had a better stamina than Michael Jordan or any other top wingman with known stamina. wilt can't play 48 minutes if was playing SG for sure. jordan or kobe's jump shot require more labor. wilt doesn't really have to jump all that high to shoot over dudes. watch kobe's jumpshots. he gets so much lift on his jumpshots because he has to jump high not to get blocked.

and smaller players handle the ball more often and they are defended differently. if Jordan is burning 1500 calories per night at 40 minutes, wilt is probably burning less at 48 minutes.

but i do agree that wilt had the best stamina of all big men. but not the entire history of the NBA.

[Owl]

How are you factoring rebounds? Wilt was a go getter of rebounds and would still be stronger than anybody else today quite easily. He just had a knack for rebounding and he frequently dominated the only other guy that could rebound like him. At 36 years old he averaged 15.5 rebounds per 36 min. Shaq was never a great rebounder and had way too many years where 6'5 and 6'7 guys outrebounded him by 3,4 or 5 more rebounds per game. Just no way Shaq and Wilt would be that close in rebounds.
Don't agree with using Rodman or Barkley (or Fortson, or Evans per minute) against Shaq. Height is only a small factor in rebounding beyond a basic minimum (basically, being tall enough that you can play the 4 or 5).
Indeed some go the other way, Hollinger has argued that rebounding titles (and per minute and reb%) leaders now go to specialists indicates the improvement in the league, it being much harder now to dominate in multiple areas. I'm paraphrasing from memory and don't really know how far I go along with this but I'm just saying.

But yes Wilt does have a rebound % in his final 3 years of his career of 19.4 (versus the likes of Cowens, Unseld, Reed and Thurmond), wheras Shaq's is 17.8 peaking at 20.6 and with no other season above 19.

I understand Wilt's peak statistical years did come against a very white and to a degree undersized league still you would think Wilt's lead over Shaq would be greater than a single rebound.

[Linspired]

I don't believe that report at all. According to the research I've done on various bodybuilding forums I'm a member of, Dwight's one rep max is 345. No way he's putting 365 6-12 times. Even still, Dwight has a better frame for bench pressing than Chamberlain. Chamberlain is certainly quite a bit stronger than Dwight, but I'd imagine their bench presses would be relatively similar.

If that report is indeed true,and you can provide a legitimate source to back up your claim, I might be able to see 400 for Wilt as a one rep max.

i can believe 440lb bench for dwight. benching 345lb would be nothing to a man with huge chest who weighs 270lb. theoretically he should be able to do 365 6-7 times if he really worked out consistently. dwight's arm really isn't that long compared to wilt's. dwight's wingspan is huge because of his wild shoulder width.

benching 1.6 times of your bodyweight is normal for all athletes. now benching twice of your weight is something very special.

[jlauber]

I'm not gonna discredit what Wilt has done. He really was a freak of nature. He was so far ahead of his time. If Wilt is playing in today's era, i believe he would put up 26/16.

i have a few question for you jlauber, you seem like Wilt historian.

1. in 1962 wilt was 40% of the offense. i believe this is the reason why he could avg 50pt because basically wilt was half of the offense. he was allowed to score 50pt. but in 1966 his scoring took a huge dive while the team was able to score more. he was only 19% of the total offense and that's not even 1/5th. and strangely team had the best record and 1966-67 sixers are regarded as one of the greatest team of all time. did Hannum just came in and ordered wilt to share the ball because that's what celtics did? how did Wilt take this? how did media view this 'new wilt?' wouldn't the media miss the dominant wilt?

2. I believe wilt could avg 50 not because he was in a position to average 50pt playing entire 48+ minute because the game & competition was different. david robinson scored 71 pts one night because he got a green light. wouldn't david robinson avg 50pt in 1962 if he had a green light too? wouldn't shaq be able to avg 50pt also? what makes wilt so different than these 2? was wilt better post up player? better jump shooter? i know wilt was a better rebounder, but wouldn't shaq & drob also be able to grab 25rebounds in 1962?

3. i do believe wilt had the greatest stamina of all big men, but i can tell you orlando shaq could play 48 minutes against college kids, but not in the NBA. because you can take a breather or two against inferior competition and just get away with it. when you are that dominant against the competition it's ok to take play off here and there. but you can't when you are going up against hakeem, ewing and etc. do you believe wilt could avg 48 minutes in today's nba? what would be his avg in today's nba?

4. I do not believe wilt weighed anything over 310lb. I also don't believe his ridiculous vertical. but i can buy 35-37 inch max vert for young wilt. physically young wilt would look like slightly taller javal mcgee in today's nba. agree or disagree? what's you honest opinion on wilt's vertical? do you believe wilt had legit 40 inch vertical?


1. I agree that Wilt is not going to score 50 ppg in today's NBA. But, I have posted the numbers before (and I will go into detail if you really need me to), and this is how they TRANSLATE into these eras:

If you reduce Wilt's FGAs and FTAs down to MJ's 86-87 levels, he would STILL have averaged 41.5 ppg. HOWEVER, you HAVE to adjust his FG% upward, as well. Why? Because if you don't, the teams that averaged 118.8 ppg in '62, would only be averaging 90 ppg in MJ's '87 season, which in fact averaged 109.9 ppg. Adjusting Wilt's .506 FG% to MJ's '87 league of .480 (actually the eFG% was at .490 BTW)...and Wilt would have shot about .570. Which would have been worth two more made FGs per game, or an average now of 45.4 ppg. Of course, you could do the simple math too...MJ's '87 season scored at .925 of Wilt's '62 NBA. Multiply that out, and Wilt would have averaged 46 ppg in '87.

Do the same math in 2012, and Wilt still comes in at around 40 ppg.

Now, you can argue that Wilt wouldn't be playing 48 mpg, BUT, keep in mind that Wilt has the SEVEN highest MPG seasons in NBA history, and he not only was playing around 48 mpg in SEVERAL of them, he was doing so in a very much more compressed schedule (with as many as five games in five nights.)

Also, MJ and Kobe, in their peak scoring seasons, averaged more shots per minute played as a percentage of their team's shots, than Wilt did in '62.

As for Wilt's TEAM success. You simply can't blame Wilt early on in his career. He played with PUTRID rosters. Here is a great example. In his 62-63 season, he averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting (in a league that shot .441.) His teammates collectively shot .412 (the worst team in the league was at .427.) Wilt even handed out 3.4 apg that season. IMHO, he passed TOO much, and in fact, SHOULD have taken MORE shots.

As his teammates became better, he shot less. He STILL put up the HIGH game in every season of the decade of the 60's. And, his new coach in '70 asked that he shoot more. In his 11th season, Chamberlain started out that season averaging a league-leading 32.2 ppg on .579 shooting. Included were games in which he hung a 25-25 9-14 game on Kareem; 33, 35, 37 points (on 7-0 280 lb Tom Bowerwinkle), 38 points (on reigning MVP Wes Unseld), 42 )on star center Bob Rule), and 43 points. Unfortunately, he shredded his knee in that ninth game, and was never the same again. STILL, on basically one leg, he had games of 30 and 36 in the first round of the playoffs, and a 45-27 game in a must-win game six of the Finals (and put up the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history... 23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting.)

2. There have been many players who put up huge SINGLE games in their careers. In Robinson's 71 point game, no one even attempted to guard him. It was a meaningless game. And Shaq's 61 point game came against THREE inept centers. Bust Michael Olowakandi guarded him for 14 mintes. 6-10 Eric Piatkowski guarded him for another 19. Then 6-7 Pete Chilcutt finished up on him. And, Shaq played 45 minutes in a 123-103 blowout win in which his 49-11 Lakers mopped up the hapless 11-49 Clippers.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain had FOUR games of 60+ against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy (who would be listed at 7-0 in TODAY's NBA BTW) including a 73-36 game. He had FIVE games of 50+ against RUSSELL, including a 50-35 must-win playoff game, and a 62 point game on 27-45 shooting. He also was routinely pouring in 50-60+ games against 7-0 Walter Dukes (who would be 7-1+ today), and 6-11 Leroy Ellis. He had an entire SEASON, covering NINE games, in which he AVERAGED 40.1 ppg against HOFer Willis Reed (including games in which he outscored Reed by 52-23 and 58-28.)

BTW, Chamberlain had THREE 50+ point games in "must-win" playoff games in his NBA career, and FOUR overall.

Rebounding? Chamberlain didn't just lead the league nearly every season (11 times in 14 seasons), he DOMINATED his rivals. As an example, the 6-10 Russell, with a 7-4 wingspan and world-class leaping abilty, was outrebounded by FIVE per GAME in their 142 H2H games. Hell, Chamberlain even outrebounded Russell in one game, by a 55-19 margin.

In Wilt's LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rgp, in a post-season in which the average team averaged 50.6 rpg. And how about this...that was the LAST time a player would ever average better than 17.3 rpg in the post-season.

Shaq was outrebounded by the likes of 6-8 Rodman and 6-7 Ben Wallace.

3. Chamberlain LED the NBA in MPG, NINE times. In his 61-62 season, which was even more compressed than this PAST season, Wilt averaged 48.5 mpg. That schedule included as many as five games in five nights (two in between on the road.)

I have long maintained that had Wilt had the "luxury" of "only" playing 42 mog throughout his career, his EFFICIENCY would have risen.

4. PHILA posted an article (I won't take the time to find it right now), which had a mid-60's Wilt coming to camp at 320 lbs. And in the mid-60's, Wilt played one season at 290 lbs (and at age 27, was timed at a 4.6 40 by Hank Stram.) And Wilt was probably around 310+ at the end of his NBA career.

I do believe that he had a 40"+ vertical. CavsFan posted a video in which he is blocking a shot with his fingertip within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. This with a leap in which he had no time to react, went straight up (no running start), and with his off-hand.

BTW, there is also footage of a 34 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, and at over 300 lbs, blocking a shot, in which, again, he has no time to react, and goes straight up...in which his fingertips are over the top of the square (somewhere around 12'.)

There were at least two respected eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard. We have TEX WINTER claiming that he witnessed a high school Chamberlain, with three steps from behind the FT line, dunking the ball from the FT line. Sportwriter George Kiseda calims to have measured Wilt's vertical at over 42". We have footage of an old Wilt blocking TWO of Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks within a few seconds. And, we KNOW that Wilt was a PART-TIME HIGH JUMP COLLEGE champion (and with poor technique.) So, yes, I firmly believe Wilt had a 40+ vertical.

[jlauber]

you can't just claim wilt has the best stamina just because he played the most minutes. I don't believe Wilt had a better stamina than Michael Jordan or any other top wingman with known stamina. wilt can't play 48 minutes if was playing SG for sure. jordan or kobe's jump shot require more labor. wilt doesn't really have to jump all that high to shoot over dudes. watch kobe's jumpshots. he gets so much lift on his jumpshots because he has to jump high not to get blocked.

and smaller players handle the ball more often and they are defended differently. if Jordan is burning 1500 calories per night at 40 minutes, wilt is probably burning less at 48 minutes.

but i do agree that wilt had the best stamina of all big men. but not the entire history of the NBA.

Well, once again, take a look at Chamberlain in 61-62. He played all but eight MINUTES in the ENTIRE season. AND, he played a TON of B2B games, SIX separate stretches of THREE games in a row; THREE more separate stretches of FOUR games in a row; and even another separate stretch of FIVE games in FIVE nights.

Then, factor in that he was scoring 50 ppg and against MULTIPLE defenders (and BRUTAL defenses.) And, he was not only grabbing 26 rpg, there are those that believe he was blocking 10+ shots a game in the process (and probably going after twice that many per game.)

BTW, as both Psileas and ThaRegul8r have pointed out, shot-blockers like Wilt and Russell LOSE rebounding opportunities. They are knocking shots to teammates, and even the shots they don't block takes them out of position to go after the rebound. IMHO, you could probably ADD an additional 2-3 MORE rpg in Wilt's career, had he just planted himself.

And, before someone brings up Rodman's rebound percentage...one, he only played part-time for much of his career. Two, he didn't do anything on the offensive end. Three, he didn't block shots. And finally, and this is important...in the post-season, he SHRANK dramatically. Meanwhile, Chamberlain ELEVATED his rebounding in the post-season (and he did so facing a HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games...and Russell in 49 of those.) Chamberlain had EIGHT post-seasons of 24.7 rpg, and included two of 29.1 and even 30.2 rpg. And he had series of 32.0 and 31.4 rpg just against RUSSELL!

Think about this...in his '67 ECF's against RUSSELL, in the first game, he outrebounded Russell, 32-15, and in a game that had 120 TOTAL rebounds 27%.) In the clinching game five win, he outrebounded Russell, 36-21, and in a game that had 128 TOTAL rebounds available (28%.) And, in game three, Wilt not only set a record of 41 rebounds (outrebounding Russell 41-29), it came in a game with just 134 available rebounds, or 30% of them! BTW, given the fact that Russell was easily Boston's best rebounder, I have often wondered how many rebounds were available in the game in which Chamberlain outrebounded Russell, 55-19? Even if it were around 140, that would have meant that Wilt had about 40% of them!

Oh, and before someone posts that the NBA had teams getting 70+ rpg in the early 60's...yes, IF you also mention that those numbers included TEAM rebounds, which were no longer included after the 67-68 season. The fact was, in Wilt's greatest rebounding seasons, the NBA was at around 62-63 rpg per team on average. And, in his 66-67 season, when he "only" played 45.3 mpg, he averaged 24.2 rpg in a league that averaged about 59.

Oh, and once again, in his LAST post-season, covering 17 games, he averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season average of 50.6 per team. This past post-season the NBA averaged 42.3 rpg. Do the math...an OLD Chamberlain, in his LAST season, would have averaged nearly 19 rpg in THIS year's post-season.

Finally, Wilt outrebounded EVERYBODY...even into his LAST season. And a PRIME Chamberlain was just CRUSHING his peers.

[Raz]

If I could travel in time, I would love to switch Shaq and Wilt at birth, yes that's right, at birth. I'd take baby Shaq back to August 21, 1936, and bring baby Wilt forward to March 6th, 1972.

I then come back to July 4th, 2012 to discover that my Sports almanac has changed significantly. Shaq 100 points in a game in the 60's, and Wilt goes on to a HOF career over the 90's and 00's.

[Linspired]

so much to read! :eek: gotta give you the props.

IMO

playing the most minutes = / = best stamina

simply put, if michael jordan came to the local YMCA i go to, he would play 70 minutes if he really wanted to. and that would be a great work out for him. and the YMCA i go to have some great ballers, some NCAA level players, and most do dunk in game. but of course we will be watching michael jordan in awe. and because jordan would be playing against group of 5ft 10 to 6ft 4 dudes, he won't have to be the air jordan all the time to dominate the game.
you gotta admit, Wilt didn't have to give all his got every minute to dominate the game. it was easy for him.

also, some of today's players can play entire 48 minutes if they were allowed to. but that's just not very smart. there is no reason for anybody to play that much minute. IMO, wilt played that much because people believed wilt was a super human. wilt believed he was a super human. so taking wilt out just wasn't a smart move because he was their best chance.

[CeltsGarlic]

Damn, wilt was combination of everything. Those stats makes your head spin. Im seeing 30-30 everywhere as averages. That is insane.

[jlauber]

If I could travel in time, I would love to switch Shaq and Wilt at birth, yes that's right, at birth. I'd take baby Shaq back to August 21, 1936, and bring baby Wilt forward to March 6th, 1972.

I then come back to July 4th, 2012 to discover that my Sports almanac has changed significantly. Shaq 100 points in a game in the 60's, and Wilt goes on to a HOF career over the 90's and 00's.

Of course, "baby Shaq" would grow up in a much different environment, too. He would not have nearly the available training that he had in the 90's and 00's. Nor would he have the nutrition and the advancements in medical technology. Hell, a modern Shaq struggled with his weight. A 60's Shaq might have ballooned to over 400 lbs. OR, the reverse might have occurred. Given the fact that players in the 60's weighed considerably less, he might have peaked at 270 lbs.

And, of course, Shaq would have had to endure far more racial issues than a modern Shaq did.

Nor, would Shaq have been allowed to just run over his defenders. Playing as he did in HIS era, he likely would have either adjusted, and had to develop a more complete game, or would have led the NBA in disqualifications every year. In some games he might have fouled out within minutes.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain would have the benefit of another 40 years of training in 2000. He would have been an even bigger and stronger, with even more skills. He would have had coachs training him at age 6. He would certainly have been in even greater shape.

We'll never know, of course, but there would be far more involved than merely dropping these players into the different eras.

[jlauber]

Damn, wilt was combination of everything. Those stats makes your head spin. Im seeing 30-30 everywhere as averages. That is insane.

Wilt battled Russell in 142 H2H games, and averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg over the course of all of them. A near 30-30 game, on average, and against a player who many regard as the greatest defensive center of all-time.

He had 24 games of 40+ against Russell, including FIVE of 50+, and a high of 62. And I will probably be revising this, but last I looked, Chamberlain had 17 40-30 games just against Russell, including four in the post-season (and including a regular season game of 44-43.)

He had SEASONS of 38, 38, and 40 ppg just against Russell (and covering between 9-11 games.) He had a 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 seven game playoff series against Russell (who was at 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .447 shooting himself,.) He had a post-season against Russell in which he outscored him, 21.6 to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 32.0 to 23.4 rpg; outassisted him, 10.0 to 6.0 apg; and outshot Russell, .556 to .358.

In fact, I have posted them before, but there are some 40 games, out of their 142, in which Chamberlain just crushed Russell by huge margins.

So, those "30-30"'s you see include a plethora of games against Russell.

[Raz]

Of course, "baby Shaq" would grow up in a much different environment, too. He would not have nearly the available training that he had in the 90's and 00's. Nor would he have the nutrition and the advancements in medical technology. Hell, a modern Shaq struggled with his weight. A 60's Shaq might have ballooned to over 400 lbs. OR, the reverse might have occurred. Given the fact that players in the 60's weighed considerably less, he might have peaked at 270 lbs.

And, of course, Shaq would have had to endure far more racial issues than a modern Shaq did.

Nor, would Shaq have been allowed to just run over his defenders. Playing as he did in HIS era, he likely would have either adjusted, and had to develop a more complete game, or would have led the NBA in disqualifications every year. In some games he might have fouled out within minutes.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain would have the benefit of another 40 years of training in 2000. He would have been an even bigger and stronger, with even more skills. He would have had coachs training him at age 6. He would certainly have been in even greater shape.

We'll never know, of course, but there would be far more involved than merely dropping these players into the different eras.


:cheers:

Great post. Now if time travel is ever realized, my scenario should be first thing on the agenda, followed by a Lil' Wayne and Jesus hangout.

[Linspired]

I do believe that he had a 40"+ vertical. CavsFan posted a video in which he is blocking a shot with his fingertip within a couple of inches of the top of the backboard. This with a leap in which he had no time to react, went straight up (no running start), and with his off-hand.

BTW, there is also footage of a 34 year old Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee, and at over 300 lbs, blocking a shot, in which, again, he has no time to react, and goes straight up...in which his fingertips are over the top of the square (somewhere around 12'.)

There were at least two respected eye-witness accounts of Chamberlain touching the top of the backboard. We have TEX WINTER claiming that he witnessed a high school Chamberlain, with three steps from behind the FT line, dunking the ball from the FT line. Sportwriter George Kiseda calims to have measured Wilt's vertical at over 42". We have footage of an old Wilt blocking TWO of Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks within a few seconds. And, we KNOW that Wilt was a PART-TIME HIGH JUMP COLLEGE champion (and with poor technique.) So, yes, I firmly believe Wilt had a 40+ vertical.


there were stories of earl manigault doing something more ridiculous than coming close to 2 inches of 13 foot backboard. so unless i see a definite proof, i would have to be little skeptical. hulk hogan believes andre the giant was 720lb when he slammed the giant in wrestlemania. he really believes that. lol

i've seen a bad quality snapshot of this jump you are referring to, but it's too blurry enough for me to draw any conclusion. and he was too far away from the rim, so it could easily be a camera angle trick.

i've never really seen wilt head going over the rim(if you have some pics, please post some).

IMO, 35-37 inch vert is still elite for a guy that big. i believe 40+ inch is very rare for NBA players because they don't work out their quads like NFL dudes.

[oolalaa]

Wilt Chamberlain....The greatest regular season player of all time.

The incredibly lax offensive goaltending rules and the 12 foot lane (Widened to 16 foot after the '64 season primarily to "slow" Wilt down) did contribute some so his INSANE statistical seasons in the early 60s but, like you said jlauber, ONLY Wilt was accomplishing such feats.

[CeltsGarlic]

Wilt battled Russell in 142 H2H games, and averaged 28.7 ppg and 28.7 rpg over the course of all of them. A near 30-30 game, on average, and against a player who many regard as the greatest defensive center of all-time.

He had 24 games of 40+ against Russell, including FIVE of 50+, and a high of 62. And I will probably be revising this, but last I looked, Chamberlain had 17 40-30 games just against Russell, including four in the post-season (and including a regular season game of 44-43.)

He had SEASONS of 38, 38, and 40 ppg just against Russell (and covering between 9-11 games.) He had a 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 seven game playoff series against Russell (who was at 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .447 shooting himself,.) He had a post-season against Russell in which he outscored him, 21.6 to 10.2 ppg; outrebounded Russell, 32.0 to 23.4 rpg; outassisted him, 10.0 to 6.0 apg; and outshot Russell, .556 to .358.

In fact, I have posted them before, but there are some 40 games, out of their 142, in which Chamberlain just crushed Russell by huge margins.

So, those "30-30"'s you see include a plethora of games against Russell.


Really appreciate the info. Those are hard to find stats. Thanks.

[fpliii]

these threads are interesting, but I like to stay objective as an outsider since I didn't live through the era

[jlauber]

there were stories of earl manigault doing something more ridiculous than coming close to 2 inches of 13 foot backboard. so unless i see a definite proof, i would have to be little skeptical. hulk hogan believes andre the giant was 720lb when he slammed the giant in wrestlemania. he really believes that. lol

i've seen a bad quality snapshot of this jump you are referring to, but it's too blurry enough for me to draw any conclusion. and he was too far away from the rim, so it could easily be a camera angle trick.

i've never really seen wilt head going over the rim(if you have some pics, please post some).

IMO, 35-37 inch vert is still elite for a guy that big. i believe 40+ inch is very rare for NBA players because they don't work out their quads like NFL dudes.

Of course, the main problem with "believing" anything Chamberlain did, based on VIDEO fooatge, is going to be a problem. We are getting more and more footage of Wilt...but still, I suspect it is no more than about 2-3 hours total. The man played over 46 mpg over the course of his 1200 career NBA games, as well as two seasons at the varsity level in college. That is probably somewhere around 1000 hours right there. Not to mention all of the practices in which he probably did some unfathomable physical feats.

BTW, for those that question his SKILLS, take a look at this footage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

And for those that want to see that footage of his leap...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

Keep in mind that he has no time to react, goes straight up (no running start, and blocks the shot with his off-hand.

And once again, Sonny Hill claims to have witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard, as did long time Sixer trainer Al Domenico.

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://d3trabu2dfbdfb.cloudfront.net/3/8/380399_o.jpeg

[Linspired]

Of course, "baby Shaq" would grow up in a much different environment, too. He would not have nearly the available training that he had in the 90's and 00's. Nor would he have the nutrition and the advancements in medical technology. Hell, a modern Shaq struggled with his weight. A 60's Shaq might have ballooned to over 400 lbs. OR, the reverse might have occurred. Given the fact that players in the 60's weighed considerably less, he might have peaked at 270 lbs.

And, of course, Shaq would have had to endure far more racial issues than a modern Shaq did.

Nor, would Shaq have been allowed to just run over his defenders. Playing as he did in HIS era, he likely would have either adjusted, and had to develop a more complete game, or would have led the NBA in disqualifications every year. In some games he might have fouled out within minutes.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain would have the benefit of another 40 years of training in 2000. He would have been an even bigger and stronger, with even more skills. He would have had coachs training him at age 6. He would certainly have been in even greater shape.

We'll never know, of course, but there would be far more involved than merely dropping these players into the different eras.


i'm sorry, when you are a man-child, you are a man-child.
http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/03/72/62/1027262/3/628x471.jpg

shaq probably ate same stuff wilt ate. fried chicken, collard greens,
corn bread, collard greens, fried fish, candy yams, mac & cheese
mash potatoes, and more fried chicken.

and no, these high school beasts do not work out as much because they it may stop the growth spurt. lebron was a born beast. he was dunking in middle school. you don't need special diet for being a beast.

no matter how you slice it, shaq was a bigger man than wilt. bigger girth, thicker core, thicker arms, bigger bun buns, and etc.

[Linspired]

Of course, the main problem with "believing" anything Chamberlain did, based on VIDEO fooatge, is going to be a problem. We are getting more and more footage of Wilt...but still, I suspect it is no more than about 2-3 hours total. The man played over 46 mpg over the course of his 1200 career NBA games, as well as two seasons at the varsity level in college. That is probably somewhere around 1000 hours right there. Not to mention all of the practices in which he probably did some unfathomable physical feats.

BTW, for those that question his SKILLS, take a look at this footage...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

And for those that want to see that footage of his leap...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EpVZS26BUs

Keep in mind that he has no time to react, goes straight up (no running start, and blocks the shot with his off-hand.

And once again, Sonny Hill claims to have witnessed Wilt touching the top of the backboard, as did long time Sixer trainer Al Domenico.


this is not a proper evidence.
http://tinyurl.com/brbluo2/

wilt must have 16 inch long alien hands.

[jlauber]

these threads are interesting, but I like to stay objective as an outsider since I didn't live through the era

Some will rip me for reposting this...

but take a look at "the bridge" Kareem. He played four seasons IN the Chamberlain era. And, he faced an old Chamberlain, on a surgically repaired knee, and well past his prime in 27 H2H games. (They did meet one time before Chamberlain shredded his knee in the 69-70 season, and Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2...including a skyhook; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.)

Overall, in their 28 H2H games, a PRIME Kareem shot .464 against Wilt. This from a career .559 shooter. Not only that, but in their LAST TEN H2H games, Kareem shot .434! BTW, Kareem, in his 43 H2H's with Thurmond, probably shot about .430 on average.

Then, a 38-39 year old Kareem, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, covering all TEN H2H's, AVERAGED 32 ppg on, get this... .630 shooting, against Hakeem. Included were three games of 40+ (40, 43, and 46), and in that 46 point game, Kareem only played 37 minutes, and shot 21-30 from the floor. Not only that, but in about the same week that a 39 year old Kareem hung that 46 point game on Hakeem, he shelled Patrick Ewing with a 40 point game, on 15-22 shooting (while Ewing scored 9 points on 3-17 shooting.)

The real question would be, what would a PRIME Chamberlain have done to Kareem? We do KNOW that Wilt and Kareem faced many of the same centers, and Kareem never came close to dominating them in the same fashion as Wilt did.

Once again (I know, I posted this already)...

Where is Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff? Where is Kareem's 66 point game against Fox? Where is Kareem's 60 point game against Dierking? How about this, where is the games in which Kareem outscored Reed by 52-23 and 58-28 margins? And where are the FOUR 60+ point games against Bellamy, with a high of 73?

A PRIME Kareem battled Thurmond in 43 H2H starts, and had SEVEN games of 30+ against him, with a high of 34. (BTW, he also had SEVEN below 20.) He also faced Thurmond in three straight playoff series, and shot .486, .428, and .405 against Thurmond.

Now, a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain played from '60 thru '66, and only faced Thurmond in a small number of games (from late '65 thru '66.) BUT, in ELEVEN straight games, from their last H2H in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and even including their first meeting in '67 (in a season in which Wilt hardly shot the ball), Wilt AVERAGED 30 ppg. Included in those 11 games were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 (and he just abused Nate by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15 and 45-13.) Not only that, but Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot Nate in them by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and in the '67 Finals by a whopping .560 to .343 margin.

So, using Kareem as "the bridge" and the question has to be...what would a PRIME Chamberlain, who was over 7-1; had a 7-8 wingspan; weighed 290 lbs; was among the strongest athletes in the WORLD; with probably a 40" vertical' with sprinters speed (he was a member of KU's 4x100 team); and solid SKILLS, have done to the current NBA?

[Linspired]

here is the same shot at 10sec
http://tinyurl.com/6ssdhv3

he definitely got up there for sure, but still evidence is inconclusive. angle isn't great with p!ss poor quality.

[jlauber]

Wilt Chamberlain....The greatest regular season player of all time.

The incredibly lax offensive goaltending rules and the 12 foot lane (Widened to 16 foot after the '64 season primarily to "slow" Wilt down) did contribute some so his INSANE statistical seasons in the early 60s but, like you said jlauber, ONLY Wilt was accomplishing such feats.

Offensive goaltending was illegal BEFORE Wilt entered the NBA (and probably because of Wilt BTW.)

And the widening of the lane didn't phase Wilt at all, BUT, it did affect shooting for the REST of the league. In the 63-64 season, Chamberlain averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, in a league that shot .433.

The NBA widened the lane before the start of the next season. At the midway point in the season, a SICK Chamberlain, was averaging 38.9 ppg on .499 shooting. He was traded at that point to a better team, and cut back his shooting with the Sixers. He wound up finishing at 34.7 ppg on .510 shooting. BTW, the league scoring dropped from 111.0 ppg in '64, down to 110.2 ppg in '65, and the league FG% dropped from .433 in '64 down to .426 in '65.

Then, in the '65 ECF's, Chamberlain took his 40-40 Sixers up against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, and lost a game seven by ONE point. In that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 (which was up from his '64 Finals against Russell, when he averaged 29.2 ppg, 27.2 rpg, and shot .517.)

The next season, in 65-66, Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg on a then record .540 FG% (which he would shatter the very next season with a mark of .683), and in a league that shot .433.

The widening of the lane had NO effect on Wilt's offense.

[fpliii]

jlauber - sorry I can't respond in depth atm, on my phone (with family for the holiday)

I'll read your arguments when I have a chance, but I'd like to finish my research before taking a stance on Wilt (as part of this, I've been reading a lot of articles on him instead of just skimming, probably about 10 per Celtics game)

if I have time later tonight I'll do the 61-62 and 62-63 matchups...the returns on the first two season have been disappointing, but papers reported with less enthusiasm on the league back then (as opposed to his time with the Sixers and Lakers)

after I go through my resources a couple of times, I'm going to try to find archives for one of these Philly papers, since they'd probably have more complete synopses

[Freedom Kid7]

So much text...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v640/supajb/gifs/5c55a202.gif

Jlauber, what about Wilt's record of 20,000 women? Surely that's a record never to be broken correct?

[millwad]

This thread..... again?

[Freedom Kid7]

Jlauber vs. Millwad yet again
http://mlkshk.com/r/1E8J

[Pointguard]

you can't just claim wilt has the best stamina just because he played the most minutes. I don't believe Wilt had a better stamina than Michael Jordan or any other top wingman with known stamina. wilt can't play 48 minutes if was playing SG for sure. jordan or kobe's jump shot require more labor. wilt doesn't really have to jump all that high to shoot over dudes. watch kobe's jumpshots. he gets so much lift on his jumpshots because he has to jump high not to get blocked.

and smaller players handle the ball more often and they are defended differently. if Jordan is burning 1500 calories per night at 40 minutes, wilt is probably burning less at 48 minutes.

but i do agree that wilt had the best stamina of all big men. but not the entire history of the NBA.
They were allowed to jump on Wilt back. The guys in those days had way more will and resolution than big men today. You were allowed to hold, push, shove, leverage on big men back then. To me the most amazing thing about Chamberlain was his activity level: 50ppg, 25 rebounds and games where you accidently hear that he blocked at least 9 blocks. If you seen Rodman get 25 rebounds he looked like a ball of energy. If you seen Shaq's 60/20 game you were like wow, what got into him. Jordan said after a 59 point game that Wilt's record was safe because of the energy drain. A center also covers more ground up and down the court than a guard does.

[millwad]

They were allowed to jump on Wilt back. The guys in those days had way more will and resolution than big men today. You were allowed to hold, push, shove, leverage on big men back then. To me the most amazing thing about Chamberlain was his activity level: 50ppg, 25 rebounds and games where you accidently hear that he blocked at least 9 blocks. If you seen Rodman get 25 rebounds he looked like a ball of energy. If you seen Shaq's 60/20 game you were like wow, what got into him. Jordan said after a 59 point game that Wilt's record was safe because of the energy drain. A center also covers more ground up and down the court than a guard does.

Yeah, Wilt got pushed around all the time, he was facing martial art guys in the NBA and he was never rewarded with FT's...

Can you guys stop spamming about his rebounding, he played in the same era as Elgin Baylor who as a 6-5 forward had four seasons where he averaged 15 or more rebounds per game. It makes sense, the more you shoot as a team, the more you'll rebound and especially if you play in an era where the players shot with a lower FG%.

[Pointguard]

Don't agree with using Rodman or Barkley (or Fortson, or Evans per minute) against Shaq. Height is only a small factor in rebounding beyond a basic minimum (basically, being tall enough that you can play the 4 or 5).
Indeed some go the other way, Hollinger has argued that rebounding titles (and per minute and reb%) leaders now go to specialists indicates the improvement in the league, it being much harder now to dominate in multiple areas. I'm paraphrasing from memory and don't really know how far I go along with this but I'm just saying.

But yes Wilt does have a rebound % in his final 3 years of his career of 19.4 (versus the likes of Cowens, Unseld, Reed and Thurmond), wheras Shaq's is 17.8 peaking at 20.6 and with no other season above 19.

I understand Wilt's peak statistical years did come against a very white and to a degree undersized league still you would think Wilt's lead over Shaq would be greater than a single rebound.
The main factor in rebounding is that you go after it. No other factor is above that. Rodman and Barkley were just flat out better rebounders than Shaq no matter how you slice it. Don't use per 36 minutes or any other criteria. It is exactly what it is. Shaq was not a hunter of rebounds. Shaq rarely played outside of ten feet from the rim. By nature, his size preference of court operation will mean a lot will come his way.

As far as Hollinger's thing went, how did he explain KG being the leader of PER and the games most versatile player, arguably ever, leading the league in reboudning for four years? Love and DH are also versatile bigs leading the league in rebounding. Love among the best shooters of bigs and DH leading the league in blocks, and excelling in post scoring and defense?

[oolalaa]

Offensive goaltending was illegal BEFORE Wilt entered the NBA (and probably because of Wilt BTW.)

And the widening of the lane didn't phase Wilt at all, BUT, it did affect shooting for the REST of the league. In the 63-64 season, Chamberlain averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting, in a league that shot .433.

The NBA widened the lane before the start of the next season. At the midway point in the season, a SICK Chamberlain, was averaging 38.9 ppg on .499 shooting. He was traded at that point to a better team, and cut back his shooting with the Sixers. He wound up finishing at 34.7 ppg on .510 shooting. BTW, the league scoring dropped from 111.0 ppg in '64, down to 110.2 ppg in '65, and the league FG% dropped from .433 in '64 down to .426 in '65.

Then, in the '65 ECF's, Chamberlain took his 40-40 Sixers up against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, and lost a game seven by ONE point. In that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 (which was up from his '64 Finals against Russell, when he averaged 29.2 ppg, 27.2 rpg, and shot .517.)

The next season, in 65-66, Wilt averaged 33.5 ppg on a then record .540 FG% (which he would shatter the very next season with a mark of .683), and in a league that shot .433.

The widening of the lane had NO effect on Wilt's offense.

So, following your logic, if Wilt played with the 6 foot lane that the NBA had in the early 50s, then that would have NO effect on his offense, either. Somehow, I just don't think that's true.

And regarding the offensive goaltending rules being "lax"....I know I read somewhere (Can't for the life of me remember where, right now) that the rule was inconsistently implemented and that it was very often not called by the refs.

[Pointguard]

Yeah, Wilt got pushed around all the time, he was facing martial art guys in the NBA and he was never rewarded with FT's...

Can you guys stop spamming about his rebounding, he played in the same era as Elgin Baylor who as a 6-5 forward had four seasons where he averaged 15 or more rebounds per game. It makes sense, the more you shoot as a team, the more you'll rebound and especially if you play in an era where the players shot with a lower FG%.
Kareem was heavily into the martial arts at that time tho I know you didn't know that. What is the nonsense about freethrow's. Didn't somebody post a clip of a guy getting punched in the face while they were shooting freethows and he wasn't ejected. Didn't the Celtics boast of having "hitmen" on Wilt. It isn't anything like it is now.

The question is about endurance with rebounds as part of that argument. It isn't spam if you follow the thread - but you got to know how to read. You have to get rebounds and make them happen. Garnett is the only other multitasking big man that consistently lead the league in rebounds. So Wilt earned his title and Wilt went at it like only Malone went at it for centers. Wilt was the best rebounder for his entire career - minus a couple of years. Name me the other player that you can say that about. And when you don't find him, remind yourself that he has 150 other records that have nothing to do with rebounds. So yeah, there's a difference between Wilt and all other rebounders.

[millwad]

Kareem was heavily into the martial arts at that time tho I know you didn't know that. What is the nonsense about freethrow's. Didn't somebody post a clip of a guy getting punched in the face while they were shooting freethows and he wasn't ejected. Didn't the Celtics boast of having "hitmen" on Wilt. It isn't anything like it is now.

Exactly, because we don't have TV in Sweden, everyone knows that Kareem was into marial arts.. :facepalm

I've seen plenty of footage of fights and punches from the 80's where no one got ejected a la Akeem smacking someone just like that and he didn't even get a technical for it. NBA wasn't always asa weak as today's basketball.

The question is about endurance with rebounds as part of that argument. It isn't spam if you follow the thread - but you got to know how to read. You have to get rebounds and make them happen. Garnett is the only other multitasking big man that consistently lead the league in rebounds. So Wilt earned his title and Wilt went at it like only Malone went at it for centers. Wilt was the best rebounder for his entire career - minus a couple of years. Name me the other player that you can say that about. And when you don't find him, remind yourself that he has 150 other records that have nothing to do with rebounds. So yeah, there's a difference between Wilt and all other rebounders.

It is spam and it's garbage.
Garnett is not the only other multitasking big man that consistently lead the league in rebounds, Hakeem was up there, Drob as well etc..

Wilt was an amazing rebounder but his stats wouldn't be no where close to what they were during his career, no where close and that's my point.

That is why this thread is garbage, just like the thousand other "Wilt's records" by Jlauber are. Most of them are pure stats and we all know that he wouldn't have been doing the things he did in the 60's, if he played today. Stats doesn't mean much when the circumstances were completely different.

[Pointguard]

Of course, "baby Shaq" would grow up in a much different environment, too. He would not have nearly the available training that he had in the 90's and 00's. Nor would he have the nutrition and the advancements in medical technology. Hell, a modern Shaq struggled with his weight. A 60's Shaq might have ballooned to over 400 lbs. OR, the reverse might have occurred. Given the fact that players in the 60's weighed considerably less, he might have peaked at 270 lbs.

And, of course, Shaq would have had to endure far more racial issues than a modern Shaq did.

Nor, would Shaq have been allowed to just run over his defenders. Playing as he did in HIS era, he likely would have either adjusted, and had to develop a more complete game, or would have led the NBA in disqualifications every year. In some games he might have fouled out within minutes.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain would have the benefit of another 40 years of training in 2000. He would have been an even bigger and stronger, with even more skills. He would have had coachs training him at age 6. He would certainly have been in even greater shape.

We'll never know, of course, but there would be far more involved than merely dropping these players into the different eras.
There's no way Shaq could have maintained the schedule back then. Even DH, who is today's version of the iron man could do the 2012 season which was spa treatment in comparison to the headaches of playing in Wilt's day. Cold gyms, no hot water in the locker rooms, travel sometimes taking 20 hours before getting to hotels with too small beds, shaby hotels, no massueses or personal trainers, and worst of all they didn't stretch before games - that came along with Kareem and his Yoga studies.

Shaq without stretching in a cold gym with no let up in the schedule, Shaq wasn't an ironman with the kazillion modern day conveniences. He would be a lot like Willis Reed. Too injured to count on after his 4th year. And remember they made rules to slow Wilt down. They allowed Shaq to do things that nobody else was allowed to do.

Move Wilt to the modern day and he gets bigman camp at 18. He gets better nutrition. He wouldn't have nagging injuries and can have real weight training. He would hire Hakeem in the off season. He would get favorable calls: allowed to bull doze, hop, skip, take more than the 1 and half steps he was allowed. Rules would be made to favor him. He would have John Wall running as fast as him and even creating easy baskets for him. Guys would spread the floor for him .... .

[Pointguard]

It is spam and it's garbage.
Garnett is not the only other multitasking big man that consistently lead the league in rebounds, Hakeem was up there, Drob as well etc..

Hakeem and D Rob lead the league in rebounding three times cumaltively with about 30 years between them.



Wilt was an amazing rebounder but his stats wouldn't be no where close to what they were during his career, no where close and that's my point.

That is why this thread is garbage, just like the thousand other "Wilt's records" by Jlauber are. Most of them are pure stats and we all know that he wouldn't have been doing the things he did in the 60's, if he played today. Stats doesn't mean much when the circumstances were completely different.
You quoted me and said I was spamming. You know I don't spam.

[millwad]

There's no way Shaq could have maintained the schedule back then. Even DH, who is today's version of the iron man could do the 2012 season which was spa treatment in comparison to the headaches of playing in Wilt's day. Cold gyms, no hot water in the locker rooms, travel sometimes taking 20 hours before getting to hotels with too small beds, shaby hotels, no massueses or personal trainers, and worst of all they didn't stretch before games - that came along with Kareem and his Yoga studies.


Wow, again this nonsense about cold gyms, no hot water and the travel schedule and oh my god, they didn't stretch. Clyde Drexler never did any stretching and he was one of the most athletic guys the league ever saw and he had a long career.

If George Mikan, Bob Pettit, Wayne Embry etc. maintained the schedule back then I'm sure as hell that Shaq and Howard would do so as well.



Shaq witheout stretching in a cold gym with no let up in the schedule, Shaq wasn't an ironman with the kazillion modern day conveniences. He would be a lot like Willis Reed. Too injured to count on after his 4th year. And remember they made rules to slow Wilt down. They allowed Shaq to do things that nobody else was allowed to do.


This is hypothetical bullsh*t, George Mikan, Bob Pettit, Wayne Embry and MANY MANY MANY more of those guys had no problems with playing back then, why would a guy like Shaq and DH have any.. Worthless hypothetical garbage.



Move Wilt to the modern day and he gets bigman camp at 18. He gets better nutrition. He wouldn't have nagging injuries and can have real weight training. He would hire Hakeem in the off season. He would get favorable calls: allowed to bull doze, hop, skip, take more than the 1 and half steps he was allowed. Rules would be made to favor him. He would have John Wall running as fast as him and even creating easy baskets for him. Guys would spread the floor for him .... .

Well buhu, who denied anything you just wrote?
And yeah, lets act like he would get a ton of easy baskets nowadays because after all, the defense is so much "worse" nowadays.. :facepalm

And yeah, John Wall, damn, he would dish those alley's to Wilt 24/7 and poor Wilt never had any great guards to play with and he never got any good touches..

[millwad]

You quoted me and said I was spamming. You know I don't spam.

I've always respected you as a poster and you seem like a bright guy based on comments I've read written by you in OTC but this is garbage, you just wrote a hypothetical paragrapgh about how injured Shaq would be in 60's... Like seriously, you're getting Jlauberish.

[Linspired]

Some will rip me for reposting this...

but take a look at "the bridge" Kareem. He played four seasons IN the Chamberlain era. And, he faced an old Chamberlain, on a surgically repaired knee, and well past his prime in 27 H2H games. (They did meet one time before Chamberlain shredded his knee in the 69-70 season, and Wilt outscored Kareem, 25-23; outrebounded Kareem, 25-20; outassisted Kareem, 5-2; outblocked Kareem, 3-2...including a skyhook; and outshot Kareem, 9-14 to 9-21.)

Overall, in their 28 H2H games, a PRIME Kareem shot .464 against Wilt. This from a career .559 shooter. Not only that, but in their LAST TEN H2H games, Kareem shot .434! BTW, Kareem, in his 43 H2H's with Thurmond, probably shot about .430 on average.

Then, a 38-39 year old Kareem, in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, covering all TEN H2H's, AVERAGED 32 ppg on, get this... .630 shooting, against Hakeem. Included were three games of 40+ (40, 43, and 46), and in that 46 point game, Kareem only played 37 minutes, and shot 21-30 from the floor. Not only that, but in about the same week that a 39 year old Kareem hung that 46 point game on Hakeem, he shelled Patrick Ewing with a 40 point game, on 15-22 shooting (while Ewing scored 9 points on 3-17 shooting.)

The real question would be, what would a PRIME Chamberlain have done to Kareem? We do KNOW that Wilt and Kareem faced many of the same centers, and Kareem never came close to dominating them in the same fashion as Wilt did.

Once again (I know, I posted this already)...

Where is Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff? Where is Kareem's 66 point game against Fox? Where is Kareem's 60 point game against Dierking? How about this, where is the games in which Kareem outscored Reed by 52-23 and 58-28 margins? And where are the FOUR 60+ point games against Bellamy, with a high of 73?

A PRIME Kareem battled Thurmond in 43 H2H starts, and had SEVEN games of 30+ against him, with a high of 34. (BTW, he also had SEVEN below 20.) He also faced Thurmond in three straight playoff series, and shot .486, .428, and .405 against Thurmond.

Now, a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain played from '60 thru '66, and only faced Thurmond in a small number of games (from late '65 thru '66.) BUT, in ELEVEN straight games, from their last H2H in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and even including their first meeting in '67 (in a season in which Wilt hardly shot the ball), Wilt AVERAGED 30 ppg. Included in those 11 games were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 (and he just abused Nate by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15 and 45-13.) Not only that, but Wilt also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot Nate in them by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and in the '67 Finals by a whopping .560 to .343 margin.

So, using Kareem as "the bridge" and the question has to be...what would a PRIME Chamberlain, who was over 7-1; had a 7-8 wingspan; weighed 290 lbs; was among the strongest athletes in the WORLD; with probably a 40" vertical' with sprinters speed (he was a member of KU's 4x100 team); and solid SKILLS, have done to the current NBA?


this is what kareem said about wilt.

"Nobody really presented a challenge to me getting it off. Wilt [Chamberlain] was pretty good, too. Wilt tried to time it and he could really leap, but he just couldn't get there in time."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/features/kareem

[Linspired]

There's no way Shaq could have maintained the schedule back then. Even DH, who is today's version of the iron man could do the 2012 season which was spa treatment in comparison to the headaches of playing in Wilt's day. Cold gyms, no hot water in the locker rooms, travel sometimes taking 20 hours before getting to hotels with too small beds, shaby hotels, no massueses or personal trainers, and worst of all they didn't stretch before games - that came along with Kareem and his Yoga studies.

Shaq without stretching in a cold gym with no let up in the schedule, Shaq wasn't an ironman with the kazillion modern day conveniences. He would be a lot like Willis Reed. Too injured to count on after his 4th year. And remember they made rules to slow Wilt down. They allowed Shaq to do things that nobody else was allowed to do.

Move Wilt to the modern day and he gets bigman camp at 18. He gets better nutrition. He wouldn't have nagging injuries and can have real weight training. He would hire Hakeem in the off season. He would get favorable calls: allowed to bull doze, hop, skip, take more than the 1 and half steps he was allowed. Rules would be made to favor him. He would have John Wall running as fast as him and even creating easy baskets for him. Guys would spread the floor for him .... .


if dwight howard was born in 40's he wouldn't act like a diva either. he would appreciate every moment, and be mentally stronger. today's athletes may have the physical aptitude, but many lack the mental side. old school ballers didn't have today's scientific training & diet, but they also had tough teachers, more vigorous 'old school' training, and etc. past generation athletes pushed more. rocky IV anyone?

[Alan Ogg]

So, evidently you are claiming that, one, Wilt's NBA played at TWICE the pace that Shaq's era did...which is completely ABSURD. Abnd secondly, you are PUNISHING Wilt for being capable of playing 48 mpg.

Regarding the latter, how about this? A PRIME ATHLETIC Kareem, at age 25, LED the NBA in mpg in 71-72 at 44.2 mpg. In their post-season H2H, and in the clinching game six come-from-behind win, it was WELL DOCUMENTED that a 36 year old Chamberlain, playing every minute of the game, was RUNNING Kareem to death in that 4th quarter, as well as POUNDING him into submission. Wilt THOROUGHLY outplayed Kareem down that stretch.

Here again, no other player in NBA HISTORY, has ever had the stamina that Wilt had.

Incidently, Shaq played in an NBA that shot the ball at a considerably higher percentage than what Chamberlain's era did...and yet, according to your numbers, Wilt would only raise his FG% from .540 to .550?

And how do explain 6-9 Kevin Love averaging 15.2 rpg in 37 mpg just TWO years ago? Would he have been outrebounding a Wilt was who was much taller, bigger, longer, stronger, faster, and much more athletic?

Here is what I'm claiming and it's actual fact.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Average rebounds per team comparing Wilt's era vs. Shaq's Era. The last column shows how many times more rebounds the team league average was in Wilt's era than Shaq's. Simple division there. It's a considerable difference that should be adjusted for in any analysis comparing the eras.

1959-60 73.5 1992-93 43.1 1.705336427
1960-61 73.3 1993-94 43 1.704651163
1961-62 71.4 1994-95 41.6 1.716346154
1962-63 66.7 1995-96 41.3 1.615012107
1963-64 65.9 1996-97 41.1 1.603406326
1964-65 67.3 1997-98 41.5 1.621686747
1965-66 68.2 1998-99 41.7 1.635491607
1966-67 67.3 1999-00 42.9 1.568764569
1967-68 66.2 2000-01 42.5 1.557647059
1968-69 56.9 2001-02 42.4 1.341981132
1969-70 52.9 2002-03 42.3 1.250591017
1970-71 53.1 2003-04 42.2 1.258293839
1971-72 51.1 2004-05 41.9 1.219570406
1972-73 50.6 2005-06 41 1.234146341

2006-07 41.1
2007-08 42
2008-09 41.3
2009-10 41.7
2010-11 41.4

When I calculate the rebounds, I see what % of the league average a player is getting.

Regarding the field goal percentage, again I'm seeing what the players did against the league average. Which basically means that Wilt was the same above league average as Shaq was.

You're right that I may be punishing Wilt a little in terms of minutes. Eventually, I'll run another analysis that also compares the players in compared to the league averages of their eras. So instead of per 36 minutes, it will yield truer game numbers.

Regarding Kevin Love, I'd have to run the numbers on him.

[Linspired]

Here is what I'm claiming and it's actual fact.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Average rebounds per team comparing Wilt's era vs. Shaq's Era. The last column shows how many times more rebounds the team league average was in Wilt's era than Shaq's. Simple division there. It's a considerable difference that should be adjusted for in any analysis comparing the eras.

1959-60 73.5 1992-93 43.1 1.705336427
1960-61 73.3 1993-94 43 1.704651163
1961-62 71.4 1994-95 41.6 1.716346154
1962-63 66.7 1995-96 41.3 1.615012107
1963-64 65.9 1996-97 41.1 1.603406326
1964-65 67.3 1997-98 41.5 1.621686747
1965-66 68.2 1998-99 41.7 1.635491607
1966-67 67.3 1999-00 42.9 1.568764569
1967-68 66.2 2000-01 42.5 1.557647059
1968-69 56.9 2001-02 42.4 1.341981132
1969-70 52.9 2002-03 42.3 1.250591017
1970-71 53.1 2003-04 42.2 1.258293839
1971-72 51.1 2004-05 41.9 1.219570406
1972-73 50.6 2005-06 41 1.234146341

2006-07 41.1
2007-08 42
2008-09 41.3
2009-10 41.7
2010-11 41.4

When I calculate the rebounds, I see what % of the league average a player is getting.

Regarding the field goal percentage, again I'm seeing what the players did against the league average. Which basically means that Wilt was the same above league average as Shaq was.

You're right that I may be punishing Wilt a little in terms of minutes. Eventually, I'll run another analysis that also compares the players in compared to the league averages of their eras. So instead of per 36 minutes, it will yield truer game numbers.

Regarding Kevin Love, I'd have to run the numbers on him.

very interesting. what about number of possessions & FGA per game?

[Linspired]

It is spam and it's garbage.
Garnett is not the only other multitasking big man that consistently lead the league in rebounds, Hakeem was up there, Drob as well etc..

Wilt was an amazing rebounder but his stats wouldn't be no where close to what they were during his career, no where close and that's my point.

That is why this thread is garbage, just like the thousand other "Wilt's records" by Jlauber are. Most of them are pure stats and we all know that he wouldn't have been doing the things he did in the 60's, if he played today. Stats doesn't mean much when the circumstances were completely different.

hakeem led the league in rebounding twice, but hakeem was 6ft 10. drob led the league once in 1991, but that was before rodman took the rebounding to a whole new level in 1992. after 91 drob only had 2 other top 5 rebounding season. while rodman was averaging 16-18rebs, drob's typical year was only around 10 reb.

[jlauber]

Here is what I'm claiming and it's actual fact.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html

Average rebounds per team comparing Wilt's era vs. Shaq's Era. The last column shows how many times more rebounds the team league average was in Wilt's era than Shaq's. Simple division there. It's a considerable difference that should be adjusted for in any analysis comparing the eras.

1959-60 73.5 1992-93 43.1 1.705336427
1960-61 73.3 1993-94 43 1.704651163
1961-62 71.4 1994-95 41.6 1.716346154
1962-63 66.7 1995-96 41.3 1.615012107
1963-64 65.9 1996-97 41.1 1.603406326
1964-65 67.3 1997-98 41.5 1.621686747
1965-66 68.2 1998-99 41.7 1.635491607
1966-67 67.3 1999-00 42.9 1.568764569
1967-68 66.2 2000-01 42.5 1.557647059
1968-69 56.9 2001-02 42.4 1.341981132
1969-70 52.9 2002-03 42.3 1.250591017
1970-71 53.1 2003-04 42.2 1.258293839
1971-72 51.1 2004-05 41.9 1.219570406
1972-73 50.6 2005-06 41 1.234146341

2006-07 41.1
2007-08 42
2008-09 41.3
2009-10 41.7
2010-11 41.4

When I calculate the rebounds, I see what % of the league average a player is getting.

Regarding the field goal percentage, again I'm seeing what the players did against the league average. Which basically means that Wilt was the same above league average as Shaq was.

You're right that I may be punishing Wilt a little in terms of minutes. Eventually, I'll run another analysis that also compares the players in compared to the league averages of their eras. So instead of per 36 minutes, it will yield truer game numbers.

Regarding Kevin Love, I'd have to run the numbers on him.


Just taking a QUICK look and I ALREADY see the SAME flaws in your reasoning that I see so many other's make. The NBA ADDED in TEAM rebounds before the 68-69 season. And TEAM rebounds generally accounted for between 9-10 rebounds per team, per game, per season. Don't take my word for it. Just take any team, any year before 68-69, and add up their individual totals. It will ALWAYS be less than what they recorded in their TOTALS.

The FACTS were, at the HEIGHT of the rebounding, which occurred in the early 60's, and slowly declined almost every year after that, the NBA was averaging about 66 rpg. In Wilt's '62 season, it was around 62. And in Wilt's '67 season, when he averaged 24.2 rpg, it was down to about 59. Hell, in his LAST season, (and no longer with TEAM rebounds), in 72-73, it was down to 50.6 rpg. Same in that post-season, when Wilt, at age 36, and covering 17 playoff games, averaged 22.5 rpg (or a rebound rate of 22%!)

And, as mentioned previously (and thanks again to Psileas and ThaRegul8r), Chamberlain probably blocked at between 8 to 10 shots per game in his CAREER. And, he probably went after another 8-10, or more, per game in his career. Why is that important? Because blocked shots are not rebounds. And, going after shots also took Chamberlain out of position to grab the rebounds, too. So, in effect, how many rebounds per game did Wilt lose by blocking 8-10 shots per game, and going after another 8-10? Maybe anywhere from 3-4, or more?

Give Chamberlain another 3-4 rpg in his career, and he would have finished his career at nearly 27 rpg. And, at his peak, when he was averaging close to 25, he would have been somewhere near 30. Even in his last season, at age 36, he led the NBA in rebounding at 18.6 rpg (and the next guy was at 17.1 rpg.) There have been very educated estimations with Chamberlain averaging about 5-6 bpg in his LAST season. That equates to perhaps as many as 20-21 rpg in his last season, had he just planted himself in the lane (e.g., Rodman.)

[jlauber]

this is what kareem said about wilt.

"Nobody really presented a challenge to me getting it off. Wilt [Chamberlain] was pretty good, too. Wilt tried to time it and he could really leap, but he just couldn't get there in time."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/features/kareem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps

This from an OLD Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee.

BTW, in their 28 H2H games, we have SIX games in which Chamberlain's recorded blocks on Kareem were kept. He had 29 blocks just against Kareem in those six games (and another recap credited Wilt with "numerous" blocks.) Now, you can argue if they were skyhooks, or not, but I personally KNOW that Wilt was ROUTINELY blocking the "unblockable" skyhook. Given the fact that we KNOW he blocked some 29 of Kareem's shots in just SIX games, and give the fact that the two played 28 times (and Kareem was averaging close to 30 FGAs against him), and given the fact that Kareem shot just .464 against Wilt in those 28 H2H's...and I honestly believe that Wilt probably blocked at least 50 of Kareem's skyhooks.

Keep in mind that that was OLD Chamberlain, at around 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee. As for "no one presenting a challenge to me"...once again, in their 28 H2H's, Kareem shot .464 (Wilt was at .526 BTW.) In the '71 WCF's, a Wilt only a year removed from major knee surgery, battled Kareem to a statistical draw.

And in the '72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to .457 shooting. Not only that, but in the last FOUR pivotal games of that series, he held Kareem to .414 shooting.

And in Wilt's LAST season, 72-73, the two went at it six times, and Chamberlain held Kareem to .450 shooting (while Chamberlain shot .737 against Kareem.) In fact, over the course of their LAST TEN H2H GAMES, Wilt held Kareem to .434 shooting.

[Linspired]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps

This from an OLD Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee.

BTW, in their 28 H2H games, we have SIX games in which Chamberlain's recorded blocks on Kareem were kept. He had 29 blocks just against Kareem in those six games (and another recap credited Wilt with "numerous" blocks.) Now, you can argue if they were skyhooks, or not, but I personally KNOW that Wilt was ROUTINELY blocking the "unblockable" skyhook. Given the fact that we KNOW he blocked some 29 of Kareem's shots in just SIX games, and give the fact that the two played 28 times (and Kareem was averaging close to 30 FGAs against him), and given the fact that Kareem shot just .464 against Wilt in those 28 H2H's...and I honestly believe that Wilt probably blocked at least 50 of Kareem's skyhooks.


surgery must went well.

this was taken in 1972. wilt seemed to have plenty of lift.
http://tinyurl.com/cxfa24j

[oolalaa]

surgery must went well.

this was taken in 1972. wilt seemed to have plenty of lift.
http://tinyurl.com/cxfa24j

Wow.

That's a phenomenal pic :bowdown:

[Linspired]

and i know kareem's skyhook was perceived as unblockable. but what about yao's?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3636/3335094760_e6bcd34a1e_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3514/3296532675_73a6bf54b0_o.jpg

kareem had tremendous lift in his UCLA days, but in NBA he never really showed that tremendous lift all that much after first few seasons.

oh by the way, Yao would avg 50pts in 1962 too. :D

[jlauber]

surgery must went well.

this was taken in 1972. wilt seemed to have plenty of lift.
http://tinyurl.com/cxfa24j

Great photo!

:cheers:

[Pointguard]

Wow, again this nonsense about cold gyms,

Are you saying they weren't playing in cold gyms? Alot of the games played weren't in regular arena's. Nevermind the science only coming around in the late 70's. Nonsense??? You never went to warm gyms in the 1970's but you going to act like you know what you are talking about.



no hot water and the travel schedule

Ok what do you have a problem with? You act like this science has been around for years. Do your read? Sometimes they would wait 15 hours at the airport for flights and still had to connect twice to get to LA and then not get a chance to get to the hotel before the game. You think they had chartered flights??? In the Celtic garden the lack of moisture made the parque flool peel and have weak spots - and this was thru the late 70's much less the 60's. But because you don't read you are going to tell everybody else it didn't flow like that. And Boston Garden was one of the elite gardens.

I noticed that when you get frazzled you start imagining things: Where did I ever say DH couldn't handle it back then?


and oh my god, they didn't stretch. Clyde Drexler never did any stretching and he was one of the most athletic guys the league ever saw and he had a long career.
I never said Chamberlain was the only person to handle that schedule and didn't stretch because there were many others that did it. Drexler was never considered and ironman, mainly because he wasn't, but the argument is about a 7 foot gigantic man that wasn't an ironman with massuese's and big enough beds, even hardwood floors that were consistently hard, not stretching, being in cramped traveling conditions for 12 hour spurts, a behemoth who had nagging injuries despite all the trainers, comforts and preventative measures to assist them.

Put Drexler next to Shaq... now, do you think the role of attrition, wear and tear, stop and go affects them the same way?


If George Mikan, Bob Pettit, Wayne Embry etc. maintained the schedule back then I'm sure as hell that Shaq and Howard would do so as well.

I'm sure people adapt. DH would have adapted because he's an ironman now. I do question guys built like Reed (like Shaq) and who weren't ironmen in this age. The pace of that day wasn't made for a guy like Shaq, tho I do give him some credit for being a runner his first three years, not so much afterwards. Back then he had to run like crazy with worse nutrition and no gyms. He's a calamity waiting to happen.

Shaq without accessible gyms looks like a problem to me. Wilt carried around his gym in his bag because he was that type of guy. Shaq wouldn't have operations in the off season because he figured operations should happen on company time.

DH was mentioned because he felt the past season hard and he's the best example of big man with great durability (far above's Shaq's or any other center in the modern era) and he felt it.


And yeah, lets act like he would get a ton of easy baskets nowadays because after all, the defense is so much "worse" nowadays.. :facepalm

And yeah, John Wall, damn, he would dish those alley's to Wilt 24/7 and poor Wilt never had any great guards to play with and he never got any good touches..
Once again you are stuck in the mud. Drunk??? I brought up the role of the point guard because that was revolutionized between then and now. You think the relationship between the guard and bigmen are the same? You think there were a lot alley oops back then? You think the pick and roll was a fully developed science back then? Do not all active and moving big men get easy (easier) baskets?

Please answer any of the questions I put to you.

[Pointguard]

if dwight howard was born in 40's he wouldn't act like a diva either. he would appreciate every moment, and be mentally stronger. today's athletes may have the physical aptitude, but many lack the mental side. old school ballers didn't have today's scientific training & diet, but they also had tough teachers, more vigorous 'old school' training, and etc. past generation athletes pushed more. rocky IV anyone?
True Linspired, back then they weren't as tolerant of craziness back then. The guys like Cowens, Reed, Thurmond, Russell, Unseld and Lukas were headstrong guys that put their heart on the line every game. They knew one speed and it was all out. That was like the style back then I guess, later in the 70's it seemingly died out. I like DH and KG because they were/are work horses. I think DMC and Bynum could be great but the work ethic seems a bit off.

[Asukal]

If these staggering physical achievements didn't actually occur, where are those that would DISPUTE them?

Yet despite all that ridiculously staggering physical mumbo jumbo he only won twice. :applause:

[Sarcastic]

and i know kareem's skyhook was perceived as unblockable. but what about yao's?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3636/3335094760_e6bcd34a1e_o.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3514/3296532675_73a6bf54b0_o.jpg

kareem had tremendous lift in his UCLA days, but in NBA he never really showed that tremendous lift all that much after first few seasons.

oh by the way, Yao would avg 50pts in 1962 too. :D


How dare you compare Ming to Wilt. Ming is a scrub that got blocked by 4'11" Nate Robinson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kt5pOPn_0Ik

[jlauber]

Are you saying they weren't playing in cold gyms? Alot of the games played weren't in regular arena's. Nevermind the science only coming around in the late 70's. Nonsense??? You never went to warm gyms in the 1970's but you going to act like you know what you are talking about.


Ok what do you have a problem with? You act like this science has been around for years. Do your read? Sometimes they would wait 15 hours at the airport for flights and still had to connect twice to get to LA and then not get a chance to get to the hotel before the game. You think they had chartered flights??? In the Celtic garden the lack of moisture made the parque flool peel and have weak spots - and this was thru the late 70's much less the 60's. But because you don't read you are going to tell everybody else it didn't flow like that. And Boston Garden was one of the elite gardens.

I noticed that when you get frazzled you start imagining things: Where did I ever say DH couldn't handle it back then?

I never said Chamberlain was the only person to handle that schedule and didn't stretch because there were many others that did it. Drexler was never considered and ironman, mainly because he wasn't, but the argument is about a 7 foot gigantic man that wasn't an ironman with massuese's and big enough beds, even hardwood floors that were consistently hard, not stretching, being in cramped traveling conditions for 12 hour spurts, a behemoth who had nagging injuries despite all the trainers, comforts and preventative measures to assist them.

Put Drexler next to Shaq... now, do you think the role of attrition, wear and tear, stop and go affects them the same way?

I'm sure people adapt. DH would have adapted because he's an ironman now. I do question guys built like Reed (like Shaq) and who weren't ironmen in this age. The pace of that day wasn't made for a guy like Shaq, tho I do give him some credit for being a runner his first three years, not so much afterwards. Back then he had to run like crazy with worse nutrition and no gyms. He's a calamity waiting to happen.

Shaq without accessible gyms looks like a problem to me. Wilt carried around his gym in his bag because he was that type of guy. Shaq wouldn't have operations in the off season because he figured operations should happen on company time.

DH was mentioned because he felt the past season hard and he's the best example of big man with great durability (far above's Shaq's or any other center in the modern era) and he felt it.

Once again you are stuck in the mud. Drunk??? I brought up the role of the point guard because that was revolutionized between then and now. You think the relationship between the guard and bigmen are the same? You think there were a lot alley oops back then? You think the pick and roll was a fully developed science back then? Do not all active and moving big men get easy (easier) baskets?

Please answer any of the questions I put to you.

Both of us, as well as other's, have brought up the "conditions" of that era on several occasions before. And, we just had a GREAT example of ONE of those "conditions" that existed at that time. The COMPRESSED SCHEDULE. Look what happened in this PAST season. Scoring dropped from 99.6 ppg and on .459 shooting, down to 96.3 ppg and on .448 shooting (and it was considerably lower than that until the schedule became more normalized in the last half of the season.)

But, YES, there were COLD and even BREEZY venues. PHILA posted an article where the players could see their breath in a game. And virtually all of us have played the game outdoors in the cold. The ball gets heavier. Add in a breeze, and now you have to adjust for that. And the BALL itself was not uniform until the late 60's. Look at some of the photos of the BALL that was played at that time. I have seen BALD basketball in those photos. Hell, I played in city leagues in the late 60's and into the 70's, where they roll out a rack of balls, and not one was identical. Some were lighter, some heavier, and some were even lopsided. Trying shooting a lopsided basketball from 20 ft.

Not only that, but I attended several games in the early 70's, and one of my recollections, was just how SMOKY the arena was. You could barely see the floor in the second halves.

And, here again, I have posted PLAYER-AFTER-PLAYER that played at the beginning of the decade of the 60's, and into the end of the 60's and beyond. That should come as no shock, since in 1960 the NBA was shooting .410, and by the end of the decade they were shooting .446. And in Wilt's last season, in 72-73, it was at .456...which is about what the NBA has shot in the past few seasons.

Just some quick examples (and yes, there are MANY.) How about Johnny Green? In his first three seasons, beginning in 59-60, he shot .447, .430, and .436. In his last five seasons, from 68-69 thru 72-73, he shot .518, .559, .587 (LED the league), .569, and .599.

How about Darrell Imhoff? In his first three seasons, beginning in the 60-61 season, he shot .394, .386, and .314 (yikes!) By the 69-70 season he was shooting .540.

Jerry West? Shot .419 and .445 in his first two seasons. Later in the decade he was shooting as high as .514.

John Havlicek? He is the perfect example. He played eight seasons in the 60's, and eight seasons in the 70's. Guess what? He shot better in EVERY season in the 70's, than his BEST season in the 60's. In fact, he shot as low as .399 in the early 60's.

Elgin Baylor? As low as .401 in the early 60's, and as high as .486 at the end of the decade.

Hell, Chamberlain himself. In his rookie season he shot .461. He would never again shoot less than .506, and of course, from the mid-60's on, he was the most efficient shooter in NBA history. Not only that, but he was outshooting leagues by margins of .540 to .433, .595 to .446, .649 to .455, .683 to .441, and .727 to .457. How come an early Wilt, with the supposed smaller lane, was only shooting .461, .509, and .506?

And, you brought up several of the other "conditions." Much worse travel conditions and hotel accomodations. Much more primitive medical technology. Injuries often diminished careers, and some even ruined them. Poorer training and physical preparation. My god, even Wilt was known to have smoked.

And yet, enduring all of that, and least some racial discrimination, Wilt averaged 45.8 mpg in his 1045 regular season games, and then 47.2 mpg in his 160 post-season games. And he did so facing multiple defenders, and brutal defenses. And in the process, he was averaging 40 ppg, 25 rpg, and probably 10+ bpg in his first seven seasons...COMBINED. He was expected to carry a team at BOTH ends of the floor. And here again, his DEFENSE is often overlooked when his career is examined. But, as I have pointed out, he was probably the second greatest defensive center (and player) who ever played the game. He ROUTINELY shut opposing centers down, and at the very least, held them WAY below their normal efficiency (just ask Kareem, who shot .438 against Wilt in the '71 regular season, .481 in that post-season, .457 in the '72 post-season, and .450 in the '73 regular season against Wilt.)

By the mid-60's, Wilt was the game's greatest scorer, greatest rebounder, probably near the equal of Russell defensively, among the league's best passers (he had seasons of 5.2 apg, while averaging 33.5 ppg, 7.8 apg, and even 8.6 apg.) And his "estimated" blocks have been staggering. Suffice to say, he was probably the game's greatest shot-blocker, and only Russell might have a case as being better.

The man LED the NBA in scoring, rebounding, and FG%, at the SAME time, on THREE occasions. Not to mention the MANY times in which he LED the league in TWO of those categories at the SAME time (and even assists in one season.)

No matter how much his stats might be "inflated", his overall DOMINATION of his peers is unquestioned. No other player, in NBA history, has been as dominant. And again, with much of his career played in severe "conditions."

[fpliii]

jlauber - just got back a short while ago, found this link:

http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/Pollack_200607_Stats.pdf

check out page 267

should be a decent base for the spreadsheet to fill in those missing rebound numbers (making fga the priority, followed by assists, minutes and blocks when available) since we now have a complete record

[jlauber]

Yet despite all that ridiculously staggering physical mumbo jumbo he only won twice. :applause:

And generally carrying putrid rosters that played WORSE in the post-season. Furthermore, he was probably NINE points away from winning FOUR more rings.

But, think about this...

Jordan played on NINE teams that did not win a title. Bird, playing with HOF-laden rosters, did not win a ring in 10 of his 13 seasons. West and Oscar each played on 12 teams in 13 seasons, that did not win a title. Baylor never played on title-winning team at all in his 13 seasons. Kareem played on 14 teams that didn't win a title, including many with either Oscar, or Magic and Worthy. Shaq played on 15 teams that did not win a title. And Hakeem played on 16 in 18 seasons, that did not win a title.

Furthermore, Wilt faced the Celtic Dynasty, with their FIVE to NINE HOFers in TEN of his 14 seasons. Then, he faced the 69-70 Knicks, and their FOUR HOFers. Then, without BOTH West and Baylor, he faced the '71 Bucks, that went 66-16, with Kareem and Oscar. Then he faced that same Bucks team, in '72, that went 63-19. Then, in the '72 Finals, he faced a Knick team that had FIVE HOFers. Then, in his LAST season, and with an injury-riddled roster, he faced the Knicks, and their SIX HOFers in the Finals.

And, he also battled a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, as well as a starting center, who was at least a multiple all-star, in 26 more games. So, in 131 of his 160 post-season games, he faced a very good, to great, starting center. Hell, he faced Russell in 49 of those games.

[jlauber]

jlauber - just got back a short while ago, found this link:

http://www.nba.com/media/sixers/Pollack_200607_Stats.pdf

check out page 267

should be a decent base for the spreadsheet to fill in those missing rebound numbers (making fga the priority, followed by assists, minutes and blocks when available)

I should have given that link to you earlier. I have been using it for years. It has every one of their 142 H2H games...at least the scoring and rebounding numbers.

It also lists Wilt's complete boxscores, starting on the very first page, including MP, FG-FGA, and FT-FTAs, in ALL 80 of his 61-62 season games. However, there was one mistake on it. On page 1, on 3/7, and against Boston, it shows a 13-38 game. However, his FG% shows .433, which would have been 13-30. And, if you add up Pollack's numbers at the bottom, you come up with 3167 FGAs, even though he shows 3159.

[fpliii]

I should have given that link to you earlier. I have been using it for years. It has every one of their 142 H2H games...at least the scoring and rebounding numbers.

lol it's all good, good thing I'm only two seasons in (will take care of 61-62 and 62-63 tonight)

at least I can remove some of the lengthy notes in terms of backtracking to calculate Russell's rebound totals (which are strangely absent from some reports, even when he has the higher total)

that guy from nbastats.prv.pl STILL hasn't gotten back to me (his name is gorba77 on APBR)...it says he hasn't updated his site since 6/8 and hasn't been on the APBR boards since 6/26 so I guess he's been busy with other matters

BTW can we take it as a first-hand source? I figure it's reliable enough, as it's directly from Pollack

[Linspired]

And generally carrying putrid rosters that played WORSE in the post-season. Furthermore, he was probably NINE points away from winning FOUR more rings.

But, think about this...

Jordan played on NINE teams that did not win a title. Bird, playing with HOF-laden rosters, did not win a ring in 10 of his 13 seasons. West and Oscar each played on 12 teams in 13 seasons, that did not win a title. Baylor never played on title-winning team at all in his 13 seasons. Kareem played on 14 teams that didn't win a title, including many with either Oscar, or Magic and Worthy. Shaq played on 15 teams that did not win a title. And Hakeem played on 16 in 18 seasons, that did not win a title.

Furthermore, Wilt faced the Celtic Dynasty, with their FIVE to NINE HOFers in TEN of his 14 seasons. Then, he faced the 69-70 Knicks, and their FOUR HOFers. Then, without BOTH West and Baylor, he faced the '71 Bucks, that went 66-16, with Kareem and Oscar. Then he faced that same Bucks team, in '72, that went 63-19. Then, in the '72 Finals, he faced a Knick team that had FIVE HOFers. Then, in his LAST season, and with an injury-riddled roster, he faced the Knicks, and their SIX HOFers in the Finals.

And, he also battled a HOF starting center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, as well as a starting center, who was at least a multiple all-star, in 26 more games. So, in 131 of his 160 post-season games, he faced a very good, to great, starting center. Hell, he faced Russell in 49 of those games.

jordan won 6 titles in 15 years, but I really don't count his final 2 seasons with wizards. that MJ really wasn't even a shell of his former self.

[jlauber]

lol it's all good, good thing I'm only two seasons in (will take care of 61-62 and 62-63 tonight)

at least I can remove some of the lengthy notes in terms of backtracking to calculate Russell's rebound totals (which are strangely absent from some reports, even when he has the higher total)

that guy from nbastats.prv.pl STILL hasn't gotten back to me (his name is gorba77 on APBR)...it says he hasn't updated his site since 6/8 and hasn't been on the APBR boards since 6/26 so I guess he's been busy with other matters

BTW can we take it as a first-hand source? I figure it's reliable enough, as it's directly from Pollack

I case you missed my earlier post...take a look at page 1 on that. It lists ALL 80 of Wilt's boxscores, including the Boston games in that 61-62 season. Once again, there was one error...on 3/7. It should show a 13-30 game, and not a 13-38 game.

As for Pollack's reliabilty...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/03/08/Harvey.Pollack.20090308/


Yet statistics is Pollack's claim to fame. That's what landed him a distinguished place in the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame in 2002 as a John Bunn Award recipient. No one in the field of statistics has had a greater impact in the history of the game than Pollack. Pollack was keeping such statistics as minutes played, blocked shots, offensive and defensive rebounds, steals and turnovers long before the league made it part of the official boxscore.

[jlauber]

jordan won 6 titles in 15 years, but I really don't count his final 2 seasons with wizards. that MJ really wasn't even a shell of his former self.

Well, my main point, which I mentioned earlier, was that not even the great MJ won every season. In fact, he didn't win a title in his first six seasons. Not only that, but, despite playing exceptionally well, he was 1-9 in his first 10 playoff games. It wasn't until Pippen and Grant arrived, that he won his first title. And in his second "three-peat" he not only had Pippen, he had Rodman, Kerr, and Kukoc among other's.

You simply can't blame ONE player in a TEAM game.

[fpliii]

I case you missed my earlier post...take a look at page 1 on that. It lists ALL 80 of Wilt's boxscores, including the Boston games in that 61-62 season. Once again, there was one error...on 3/7. It should show a 13-30 game, and not a 13-38 game.

As for Pollack's reliabilty...

http://www.nba.com/2009/news/03/08/Harvey.Pollack.20090308/

oh I'm definitely not questioning Pollack's validity, just that of the source

I'm going to add this to the spreadsheet under 'Source #1' (with RATR, which cites AP reports directly); all non-specified cells will refer to those two

[jlauber]

oh I'm definitely not questioning Pollack's validity, just that of the source

I'm going to add this to the spreadsheet under 'Source #1' (with RATR, which cites AP reports directly); all non-specified cells will refer to those two

Great job BTW.

Oh, and I think you will have a much greater appreciation of what Chamberlain accomplished as you compile those H2H's.

[Asukal]

Well, my main point, which I mentioned earlier, was that not even the great MJ won every season. In fact, he didn't win a title in his first six seasons. Not only that, but, despite playing exceptionally well, he was 1-9 in his first 10 playoff games. It wasn't until Pippen and Grant arrived, that he won his first title. And in his second "three-peat" he not only had Pippen, he had Rodman, Kerr, and Kukoc among other's.

You simply can't blame ONE player in a TEAM game.

But Wilt was an other worldly being, he had superhuman strength, leaping ability, and my god guard-like quickness! Jordan doesn't even come close to his physical attributes! Wilt was such a nice guy he let the Celtics win most of the time. :applause:

[jlauber]

Chamberlain has been credited with something like 70 NBA records on one site, and Pollack had him with 90+ a couple of years ago.

The REALITY is/was, that he had far more.

There are numerous one's that go un-noticed. For instance, Wilt was the oldest player to have a 60+ point game (and he had TWO that season) at age 32.

He is also the oldest player to put up a 30-30 game...and again, it was TWO, and both came at the age of 35.

Of course, if you REALLY want to blow the Record Book wide open, Wilt probably has close to 500+.

How?

He has the single highest game in NBA history (obviously 100.)
He has the record for points in two consecutive games (167.)
And you can carry that to a five game streak of 351 (70 ppg!)
And then six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14 (BTW, he had TWO separate streaks of 40 ppg, and in them, he averaged 53 and 54 ppg.)

Given the fact that he had two straight seasons of 50 ppg, and 45 ppg, you are now looking at 160 straight games. And given the fact that he has the four highest seasons in NBA history, and all in a row, and he would then safely be at about 300+.

And given the fact that he averaged 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons, combined, the odds are overwhelming that he the record for points scored in consecutive games would then mushroom to over 500. Hell, given the fact that he averaged 34.4 ppg in his first ten seasons, compared to MJ's 32.2 ppg in his first ten seasons, he may very well hold the record for 750 straight games (although, and I won't bother doing the math...MJ probably had over a 33 ppg average from year's 3-12.)

Then, you could probably do the same thing with rebounding records. However, Russell may have been able to occasionally crack into some of those would be streaks. (I really don't know.)

And even in the FG-FGM categories, Wilt might have a ton of them, as well. For instance, we know that he made 35 straight FGs. Without actually looking them up, he might have the most made in FGAs, and spanning a number of games. And given the fact that he had consecutive seasons of .683 and .595 in the middle of his career, and then consecutive seasons of .649 and .727 in his last two seasons...he might hold 100's, of "most FGM in x amount of FGA's."

And if blocked shots had been officially kept, he and Russell would probably have some amazing "consecutive game" streaks over the course of their career's. In fact, while the NBA recognizes Elmore Smith's single game mark of 17 blocked shots in a game in '74 as the "official" record, we KNOW that Wilt blocked 23 shots in a game played on 12-25-68.

The actual number of records that Chamberlain holds may very well in the 1000's.

[9erempiree]

Chamberlain has been credited with something like 70 NBA records on one site, and Pollack had him with 90+ a couple of years ago.

The REALITY is/was, that he had far more.

There are numerous one's that go un-noticed. For instance, Wilt was the oldest player to have a 60+ point game (and he had TWO that season) at age 32.

He is also the oldest player to put up a 30-30 game...and again, it was TWO, and both came at the age of 35.

Of course, if you REALLY want to blow the Record Book wide open, Wilt probably has close to 500+.

How?

He has the single highest game in NBA history (obviously 100.)
He has the record for points in two consecutive games (167.)
And you can carry that to a five game streak of 351 (70 ppg!)
And then six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12, 13, 14 (BTW, he had TWO separate streaks of 40 ppg, and in them, he averaged 53 and 54 ppg.)

Given the fact that he had two straight seasons of 50 ppg, and 45 ppg, you are now looking at 160 straight games. And given the fact that he has the four highest seasons in NBA history, and all in a row, and he would then safely be at about 300+.

And given the fact that he averaged 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons, combined, the odds are overwhelming that he the record for points scored in consecutive games would then mushroom to over 500. Hell, given the fact that he averaged 34.4 ppg in his first ten seasons, compared to MJ's 32.2 ppg in his first ten seasons, he may very well hold the record for 750 straight games (although, and I won't bother doing the math...MJ probably had over a 33 ppg average from year's 3-12.)

Then, you could probably do the same thing with rebounding records. However, Russell may have been able to occasionally crack into some of those would be streaks. (I really don't know.)

And even in the FG-FGM categories, Wilt might have a ton of them, as well. For instance, we know that he made 35 straight FGs. Without actually looking them up, he might have the most made in FGAs, and spanning a number of games. And given the fact that he had consecutive seasons of .683 and .595 in the middle of his career, and then consecutive seasons of .649 and .727 in his last two seasons...he might hold 100's, of "most FGM in x amount of FGA's."

And if blocked shots had been officially kept, he and Russell would probably have some amazing "consecutive game" streaks over the course of their career's. In fact, while the NBA recognizes Elmore Smith's single game mark of 17 blocked shots in a game in '74 as the "official" record, we KNOW that Wilt blocked 23 shots in a game played on 12-25-68.

The actual number of records that Chamberlain holds may very well in the 1000's.

In regards to block shots....were these block shots during pre-goal tending or post goaltending violation?

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Best ever.

[jlauber]

In regards to block shots....were these block shots during pre-goal tending or post goaltending violation?

BOTH offensive AND defensive goal-tending rules were in place BEFORE Wilt came into the NBA.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Any records on Wilt's steals?

[jlauber]

Any records on Wilt's steals?

Not that I am aware of, BUT, "unofficially" (and it is very unofficial at this point), Chamberlain had a game against the Lakers near the end of the 67-68 season, in which we KNOW that he scored 53 points, on 24-29 shooting, with 32 rebounds, and 14 assists. However, there is a site which also credited Wilt with 24 blocks and 11 steals in that game.

[9erempiree]

Not that I am aware of, BUT, "unofficially" (and it is very unofficial at this point), Chamberlain had a game against the Lakers near the end of the 67-68 season, in which we KNOW that he scored 53 points, on 24-29 shooting, with 32 rebounds, and 14 assists. However, there is a site which also credited Wilt with 24 blocks and 11 steals in that game.

From my understanding all his records are unofficial.

[dunksby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwHP04TWOps

This from an OLD Wilt, on a surgically repaired knee.

BTW, in their 28 H2H games, we have SIX games in which Chamberlain's recorded blocks on Kareem were kept. He had 29 blocks just against Kareem in those six games (and another recap credited Wilt with "numerous" blocks.) Now, you can argue if they were skyhooks, or not, but I personally KNOW that Wilt was ROUTINELY blocking the "unblockable" skyhook. Given the fact that we KNOW he blocked some 29 of Kareem's shots in just SIX games, and give the fact that the two played 28 times (and Kareem was averaging close to 30 FGAs against him), and given the fact that Kareem shot just .464 against Wilt in those 28 H2H's...and I honestly believe that Wilt probably blocked at least 50 of Kareem's skyhooks.

Keep in mind that that was OLD Chamberlain, at around 300 lbs, and on a surgically repaired knee. As for "no one presenting a challenge to me"...once again, in their 28 H2H's, Kareem shot .464 (Wilt was at .526 BTW.) In the '71 WCF's, a Wilt only a year removed from major knee surgery, battled Kareem to a statistical draw.

And in the '72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to .457 shooting. Not only that, but in the last FOUR pivotal games of that series, he held Kareem to .414 shooting.

And in Wilt's LAST season, 72-73, the two went at it six times, and Chamberlain held Kareem to .450 shooting (while Chamberlain shot .737 against Kareem.) In fact, over the course of their LAST TEN H2H GAMES, Wilt held Kareem to .434 shooting.
I knew you would bring that video up, the first one is not even a proper skyhook and the second is goaltending. Don't get me wrong though, Wilt would dominate this weak Center era, he would dominate this league for years to come. Wilt is a legend but he does not have a case against Kareem, you can talk about FG% and how he supposedly by some baseless calculation of yours blocked 50+ of Kareem's skyhooks in six games but at the end of the day it was Kareem who led his team to wins over Wilt. Kareem vs Wilt had a clear winner and you know who that was.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Thanks to fpliii, we now have a new source that revises some of Chamberlain's earlier records.

Career 30-30 games:

Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.*


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73*


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32*


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28*


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8*


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.*


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.*


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)*


I'll add other's to this thread as I have time...
* = Weak Era

Fixed

[dunksby]

Btw, jlauber do you have any updates on the exact number of women he ****ed? Last time you said it was around 20K or something :roll:

[jlauber]

From my understanding all his records are unofficial.

What "understanding" is that?

Take a look at this (and once again, Wilt actually has FAR more records than those listed)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain

[jlauber]

I knew you would bring that video up, the first one is not even a proper skyhook and the second is goaltending. Don't get me wrong though, Wilt would dominate this weak Center era, he would dominate this league for years to come. Wilt is a legend but he does not have a case against Kareem, you can talk about FG% and how he supposedly by some baseless calculation of yours blocked 50+ of Kareem's skyhooks in six games but at the end of the day it was Kareem who led his team to wins over Wilt. Kareem vs Wilt had a clear winner and you know who that was.

Most all of the Wilt-Kareem H2H's were televised...including EVERY game of the '72 WCF's. We KNOW that Wilt blocked some 29 of Kareem's shots in just six games in their careers (and with another game of numerous blocks.) We also know (and thanks to Julizaver BTW), that Wilt even blocked a skyhook in their very first meeting (to go along with that footage of Wilt blocking TWO of Kareem's sky-hooks.) So, 29 blocks, just against Kareem, and in six games. The two went H2H in 28 games, so the odds are overwhelming that Chamberlain blocked considerably more shots over the course of those other 22 games (and yes, he did BTW.) The real question would be,...just how many? 50 may very well be a conservative estimate.

Secondly, Kareem was in his PRIME in the four years he battled Wilt, while Chamberlain was nearing the end of his career. And, as we know, Wilt shredded his knee early in Kareem's rookie season (and shortly after he just abused Kareem in their first meeting.) So, he faced Kareem, on a surgically repaired knee, in 27 of their 28 H2H games.

And, in Wilt's last reasonable scoring season, in 70-71, the two went at in five regular season H2H's, and then five more games in the '71 WCF's. In those ten straight games, Kareem outscored Wilt by an average of 26.1 ppg to 22.6 ppg. Wilt outrebounded Kareem, in those ten games, by a 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg margin. And Wilt outshot Kareem, in those ten games, by a .481 to .454 margin. And how about this FACT? In the clinching game five loss in the '71 WCF's, as Chamberlain was leaving the floor late, he received a standing ovation. And the game was played in Milwaukee.

As for the '72 WCF's, while Kareem outscored Chamberlain by a considerable margin, virtually EVERY account of that series credited Wilt with outplaying Kareem. Keep in mind, that after the first game, the Lakers won four of the next five, including a blowout win in game five, and then a 4th quarter come-from-behind win in Milwaukee in game six, and in a game in which Wilt just pounded Kareem down the stretch. Oh, and in the last four games of that series, Kareem shot .414.

Now, I will admit that Kareem was the best player in the league in those four seasons with Wilt. BUT, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either (and once again, in their first meeting, Wilt easily outplayed Kareem in every facet of the game.)

But, think about his (and I apologize up front for those that have read this before)...

Kareem faced quite a few of the centers that Wilt faced throughout his career. In fact, just the year before Kareem arrived in the NBA, Chamberlain dumped games of 60 on Connie Dierking, and 66 on Jim Fox. Kareem faced those guys several times, and never approached those numbers. Hell, he also faced Darrall Imhoff, too, and where was HIS 100 point game?

And, how about this? A PRIME Chamberlain had SEASONS, covering NINE games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Willis Reed, including games in which he outscored Reed, 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28.

A PRIME Chamberlain had SEASONS of averaging 52.7 ppg and then 43.7 ppg, and covering a total of 20 straight games (and 48.2 ppg in those 20 straight games) against Walt Bellamy. Included were four games of 60+, and a high game of 73. Kareem faced Bellamy several times, and never was within MILES of that kind of domination (BTW, Kareem's career high game was 55 points.)

AND, Kareem batted Nate Thurmond in 43 H2H starts. In those 43 games, he had a total of SEVEN games of 30+, with a HIGH of 34 points. Not only that, but he shot horribly against Thurmond in those 43 H2H games (I would be surprised it it was over 43%.) Included were three straight playoff series in which Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428 against Thurmond.

Meanwhile, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in about a dozen games. HOWEVER, over the course of 11 straight games, covering the last game of the '65 season, nine H2H's in '66, and the first game in '67 (and when Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting), Wilt AVERAGED 30 ppg against Nate. Included were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45. And, he had games in which he outscored Thurmond, 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and that monstrous 45-13 margin. AND, the two would meet in the post-season in three playoff series, and Wilt outshot Nate by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and a staggering .560 to .343 margin in the '67 Finals.

And finally, think about this. Compare and Wilt in their first ten seasons (or roughly their primes.) There was nothing that Kareem did better, including winning. And in terms of dominating their peers, as great as Kareem was (and he was the best player of the 70's) he was nowhere near as dominant as Chamberlain was against his peers.

[dunksby]

Most all of the Wilt-Kareem H2H's were televised...including EVERY game of the '72 WCF's. We KNOW that Wilt blocked some 29 of Kareem's shots in just six games in their careers (and with another game of numerous blocks.) We also know (and thanks to Julizaver BTW), that Wilt even blocked a skyhook in their very first meeting (to go along with that footage of Wilt blocking TWO of Kareem's sky-hooks.) So, 29 blocks, just against Kareem, and in six games. The two went H2H in 28 games, so the odds are overwhelming that Chamberlain blocked considerably more shots over the course of those other 22 games (and yes, he did BTW.) The real question would be,...just how many? 50 may very well be a conservative estimate.

Secondly, Kareem was in his PRIME in the four years he battled Wilt, while Chamberlain was nearing the end of his career. And, as we know, Wilt shredded his knee early in Kareem's rookie season (and shortly after he just abused Kareem in their first meeting.) So, he faced Kareem, on a surgically repaired knee, in 27 of their 28 H2H games.

And, in Wilt's last reasonable scoring season, in 70-71, the two went at in five regular season H2H's, and then five more games in the '71 WCF's. In those ten straight games, Kareem outscored Wilt by an average of 26.1 ppg to 22.6 ppg. Wilt outrebounded Kareem, in those ten games, by a 17.6 rpg to 15.6 rpg margin. And Wilt outshot Kareem, in those ten games, by a .481 to .454 margin. And how about this FACT? In the clinching game five loss in the '71 WCF's, as Chamberlain was leaving the floor late, he received a standing ovation. And the game was played in Milwaukee.

As for the '72 WCF's, while Kareem outscored Chamberlain by a considerable margin, virtually EVERY account of that series credited Wilt with outplaying Kareem. Keep in mind, that after the first game, the Lakers won four of the next five, including a blowout win in game five, and then a 4th quarter come-from-behind win in Milwaukee in game six, and in a game in which Wilt just pounded Kareem down the stretch. Oh, and in the last four games of that series, Kareem shot .414.

Now, I will admit that Kareem was the best player in the league in those four seasons with Wilt. BUT, he never faced a PRIME Chamberlain, either (and once again, in their first meeting, Wilt easily outplayed Kareem in every facet of the game.)

But, think about his (and I apologize up front for those that have read this before)...

Kareem faced quite a few of the centers that Wilt faced throughout his career. In fact, just the year before Kareem arrived in the NBA, Chamberlain dumped games of 60 on Connie Dierking, and 66 on Jim Fox. Kareem faced those guys several times, and never approached those numbers. Hell, he also faced Darrall Imhoff, too, and where was HIS 100 point game?

And, how about this? A PRIME Chamberlain had SEASONS, covering NINE games, in which he averaged 40 ppg against Willis Reed, including games in which he outscored Reed, 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28.

A PRIME Chamberlain had SEASONS of averaging 52.7 ppg and then 43.7 ppg, and covering a total of 20 straight games (and 48.2 ppg in those 20 straight games) against Walt Bellamy. Included were four games of 60+, and a high game of 73. Kareem faced Bellamy several times, and never was within MILES of that kind of domination (BTW, Kareem's career high game was 55 points.)

AND, Kareem batted Nate Thurmond in 43 H2H starts. In those 43 games, he had a total of SEVEN games of 30+, with a HIGH of 34 points. Not only that, but he shot horribly against Thurmond in those 43 H2H games (I would be surprised it it was over 43%.) Included were three straight playoff series in which Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428 against Thurmond.

Meanwhile, a PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in about a dozen games. HOWEVER, over the course of 11 straight games, covering the last game of the '65 season, nine H2H's in '66, and the first game in '67 (and when Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting), Wilt AVERAGED 30 ppg against Nate. Included were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45. And, he had games in which he outscored Thurmond, 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and that monstrous 45-13 margin. AND, the two would meet in the post-season in three playoff series, and Wilt outshot Nate by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and a staggering .560 to .343 margin in the '67 Finals.

And finally, think about this. Compare and Wilt in their first ten seasons (or roughly their primes.) There was nothing that Kareem did better, including winning. And in terms of dominating their peers, as great as Kareem was (and he was the best player of the 70's) he was nowhere near as dominant as Chamberlain was against his peers.
:lol

[OmniStrife]

OP forgot Wilt's greatest feat:

http://i.imgur.com/TmJCM.jpg

[Ketchup]

I can appreciate Wilt and how good a player he was, but those weightlifting numbers he claimed to lift are bullshit.

[jlauber]

I can appreciate Wilt and how good a player he was, but those weightlifting numbers he claimed to lift are bullshit.

Even if they were, it had nothing to do with his NBA records.

One more time, take Wilt out of the Chamberlain-era, and other than the inflated rebounding numbers, and the records and stats of those 14 years would not be any more exceptional than any other period in NBA history. Barry had the single season high record of 35.6 ppg. Johnny Green's .587 FG% would have been the highest in that period. There were a TOTAL of FIVE 60+ point games in those years (four by Baylor, and one by West.)

And take both Wilt and Russell out of the equation, and there have been a TOTAL of FOUR 20+ rpg seasons (Thurmond with a 21.3 rpg season, Pettit with a 20.2 rpg season, and Lucas with 21.1 rpg and 20.4 rpg seasons.)

BUT, put Wilt back into that era, and he completely distorted those numbers. Yet, the "Wilt-bashers" seldom acknowledge that point. They always claim that the pace was MUCH higher, which was not true at all. In MJ's '87 season the league scored at 92.5% of the HIGH season in the 60's. And even in this last season, it was at 80%. Or that the competition was "weak." BUT, if the competition were weak, why didn't the better players routinely score 50+ ppg, and grab 25+ rpg, or shoot .600+?

And the key is "the Bridge" Kareem (as well as other players like Barry, Havlicek, and slightly later Gilmore and Dr. J.) They all played in the Wilt-era, and then played well after it. They were never as dominant as a prime Chamberlain, and yet, they were still among the best players nearing the 80's and beyond. So, as great as those players were, they couldn't touch Wilt's numbers, even against many of the same players that a prime Chamberlain faced, but, their level of play was nearly as great against competition that ran into the 80's (and players who would later be among the best of the 90's.)

[jongib369]

73-36 against Bellamy..... :bowdown:


:crazysam:

I cant think of anyone ABUSING top competition like that...Jesus...

[jongib369]

Well Considering when he came into the league and it was 365, I dont see why its impossible for Wilt to increase it over time...Ive seen a younger dwight repping 350...Freaks of nature being so all around athletic

[jongib369]

http://www.lissgallery.com/neil_leifer/gallery_photos/Wilt_Chamberlain_&_Walt.jpg

[jlauber]

73-36 against Bellamy..... :bowdown:


:crazysam:

I cant think of anyone ABUSING top competition like that...Jesus...

Chamberlain faced Bellamy in 20 H2H games in the 61-62 and 62-63 seasons, and averaged...get this... 48.2 ppg in those 20 games (including FOUR games of 60+). In fact, Wilt would dominate Bellamy his entire career. In their very first meeting, Bellamy recalled that Wilt told him that he would not score a point. In the first half of that game...Bellamy did not score a point. Wilt came out in the second half, and smiled, and "let Bellamy play." He outscored Bells in that game, 52-14.

BTW, Chamberlain faced 6-11 Bob Lanier in ten games in the 71-72 and 72-73 seasons (Wilt's last two seasons) , and averaged 24.5 ppg...on ... .750 shooting against him (Lanier had his share of big games against Wilt, too, BTW.)

[TheBigVeto]

Thanks to fpliii, we now have a new source that revises some of Chamberlain's earlier records.

Career 30-30 games:

Aside from Chamberlain, there have been 36 30-30 games in NBA history, and Russell is the leader of that group, with 7 (Bellamy and Thurmond are next with 3 each.)

How about Wilt? 132.


40-30 (or 30-40) games: Other than Wilt, the NBA has had 9 40-30 games, with Baylor being the only player to have 2.

Chamberlain? 73


50-30 games: Pettit and Baylor each with 1

Wilt? 32


60-20 games: Aside from Wilt, there have been four (Baylor with 3 and Shaq with 1)

Chamberlain? 28


60-30 games: Baylor with 1

Wilt? 8


40-40 games: There have been 8 in the history of the NBA, and Chamberlain had all of them.


50-40 games: Obviously, Wilt would be the only player to have ever have accomplsihed that feat, which he did 5 times.


70-30 games: Chamberlain has the only 2, 78-43 and 73-36 (against Bellamy.)


I'll add other's to this thread as I have time...

He can do the above, beat mountain lions in a weak era, bang 10000 broads in 1 year, but it still doesn't stop the fact that he is a choker.

[riseagainst]

did wilt really have a 50 inch vert?

[jlauber]

He can do the above, beat mountain lions in a weak era, bang 10000 broads in 1 year, but it still doesn't stop the fact that he is a choker.

And yet players like Bird, Kareem, and Hakeem "choked" far more often...

[fpliii]

And yet players like Bird, Kareem, and Hakeem "choked" far more often...

jlauber - I'm working on some spreadsheets right now, and wondering what the bottom line is on these three players: Bob Pettit, Walt Bellamy, Sam Jones

[jlauber]

jlauber - I'm working on some spreadsheets right now, and wondering what the bottom line is on these three players: Bob Pettit, Walt Bellamy, Sam Jones

I can't speak for Pettit. I never saw him play. Obviously, though, he was one of two "greats" to have beaten the Celtic Dynasty (which included a 50 point clincher.)

Bellamy was a very good offensive player. His FG%'s, in the 60's, were miles ahead of the league average. And he even had some big games against Wilt (I believe his career high game against Chamberlain was 47 points.) Still, for those that rip Wilt as a "stats-padder", think about this: In Bellamy's 61-62 season, he averaged 31.6 ppg on a then record .519 FG%. His team went 18-62. In that same season, Chamberlain averaged 50.4 ppg on .506 shooting for a 49-31 Warrior team.

Bellamy was really an "empty stats" type of player, albeit, a very good shooter and scorer. The fact was, though, that Russell, Wilt, and Thurmond, and later Reed, were all considered better centers in the 60's.

Sam Jones, IMHO, has been a very under-rated player in NBA history. I believe he hit eight game winners in the Finals, as well. There was a debate, at the time, as to who was the better player, Jones or Greer. Greer was probably the better regular season performer, but Jones was clearly the better post-season player.

In terms of absolute "clutch" moments, Jones may very well be the most "clutch" post-season player in NBA history.

[fpliii]

I can't speak for Pettit. I never saw him play. Obviously, though, he was one of two "greats" to have beaten the Celtic Dynasty (which included a 50 point clincher.)

Bellamy was a very good offensive player. His FG%'s, in the 60's, were miles ahead of the league average. And he even had some big games against Wilt (I believe his career high game against Chamberlain was 47 points.) Still, for those that rip Wilt as a "stats-padder", think about this: In Bellamy's 61-62 season, he averaged 31.6 ppg on a then record .519 FG%. His team went 18-62. In that same season, Chamberlain averaged 50.4 ppg on .506 shooting for a 49-31 Warrior team.

Bellamy was really an "empty stats" type of player, albeit, a very good shooter and scorer. The fact was, though, that Russell, Wilt, and Thurmond, and later Reed, were all considered better centers in the 60's.

Sam Jones, IMHO, has been a very under-rated player in NBA history. I believe he hit eight game winners in the Finals, as well. There was a debate, at the time, as to who was the better player, Jones or Greer. Greer was probably the better regular season performer, but Jones was clearly the better post-season player.

In terms of absolute "clutch" moments, Jones may very well be the most "clutch" post-season player in NBA history.

thanks for the info

Sam Jones looks to be an unusual case...in nearly every close game the Dynasty Celtics played that came down to the wire, the synopses always seem to point him out as the one to make some flukey shot

at some point though, those shots can no longer be considered the result of good fortune, and have to count for something

I haven't been keeping track of it, but I feel like he might've had 25-30 playoff game winners (and this is a conservative estimate)

at the very least he was the first truly 'clutch' wing it seems, and at the very most he was near-transcendent in that regard

really uncanny stuff

[jlauber]

thanks for the info

Sam Jones looks to be an unusual case...in nearly every close game the Dynasty Celtics played that came down to the wire, the synopses always seem to point him out as the one to make some flukey shot

at some point though, those shots can no longer be considered the result up good fortune, and have to count for something

I haven't been keeping track of it, but I feel like he might've had 25-30 playoff game winners (and this is a conservative estimate)

at the very least he was the first truly 'clutch' wing it seems, and at the very most he was near-transcendent in that regard

Very under-rated.

His clutch offense, and Russell's clutch defense= 10-0 record in game seven's, and with seven of them decided by four points or fewer.

[fpliii]

Very under-rated.

His clutch offense, and Russell's clutch defense= 10-0 record in game seven's, and with seven of them decided by four points or fewer.

speaking of defense, I'm not sure if you saw my recent top perimeter defenders thread...consider the following 5 categories:

Top Post Man Defenders All-Time

Top Defensive Anchors All-Time

Top Perimeter Man Defenders All-Time

Top Perimeter Help Defenders All-Time

top 10 might be a bit much, but who are your top 5 in each group?

[jlauber]

speaking of defense, I'm not sure if you saw my recent top perimeter defenders thread...consider the following 5 categories:

Top Post Man Defenders All-Time

Top Defensive Anchors All-Time

Top Perimeter Man Defenders All-Time

Top Perimeter Help Defenders All-Time

top 10 might be a bit much, but who are your top 5 in each group?

I will give much more thought tomorrow, and give you my take (FWIW)...but real quickly...

Russell. Then everyone else.

[jongib369]

Thanks for the info...Its almost hard to believe someone dominating top notch talent like that... Do you happen to know what Laniers numbers were against wilt?

[jlauber]

Thanks for the info...Its almost hard to believe someone dominating top notch talent like that... Do you happen to know what Laniers numbers were against wilt?

I could look them up. Lanier actually had some huge scoring games against Wilt (as he would against Kareem throughout their H2H's), including a 42 point game...BUT, I have never seen what his FG%'s were. However, for a 35-36 old Wilt, in seasons in which he hardly shot the ball, to average 24.5 on .750 shooting, and over the course of TEN STRAIGHT games against a 6-11 HOFer (who would listed at over 7-0 today BTW) was incredible.

And BTW, Chamberlain really held Lanier down in Wilt's LAST season H2H's. Without looking up the numbers, there were even games of single digits.

Here again, what would a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain have carpet-bombed his peers by?