Higher on the all-time SG list: Allen Iverson or Ray Allen?

[DaHeezy]

Who in you opinion would rank higher on the all-time shooting guard list?

Allen Iverson or Ray Allen?

[triangleoffense]

Iverson by far.

[Punpun]

Uh ? Ray Allen. He has the rings and the records to back it up. Iverson has what ? An European MVP ?

[martycrane]

If both were comin outta school rite now i think more teams would take ray but thats just me, i even think itd be a strong majority of teams.

[Velocirap31]

Uh ? Ray Allen. He has the rings and the records to back it up. Iverson has what ? An European MVP ?

An NBA MVP as well. That's the difference maker.

[ImmortalD24]

Give me Ray Allen.. But Iverson will be ranked higher mainly because of that 1 (2001) season.. where coincidentally, he went through Ray Allen's Bucks in the ECF. Some say that series was rigged to get the bigger market/star in the finals.

[Punpun]

Oh wait. No. He doesn't even have a Yuroleague MVP.

:yaohappy:

[Derka]

I go with Ray.

[Quickening]

Oh wait. No. He doesn't even have a Yuroleague MVP.

:yaohappy:
You didn't know he had an MVP... :lol

[Punpun]

Dude, me mentioning a yuroleague MVP as some shitty trophy. Then coming on again saying he didn't even get the shitty trophy was all calculated by myself.

:yaohappy:

[BuffaloBill]

I think people forget just how good Allen Iverson was.



Could Ray Allen carry the 2001 Sixers to the finals and pull off a win against the Shaq and Kobe Lakers? :lol





no :no:

[ImmortalD24]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Manu Ginobili
6. Clyde Drexler
7. Ray Allen
8. Allen Iverson
9. George Gervin
10. Reggie Miller

[Punpun]

Ray did it against the 08 Lakers. Could AI do it ? Doubt it.

[get these NETS]

Iverson beat the pseudo big three of big dog, sam cassell AND ray allen


en route to his finals appearance


carried team of ymca guys + mutombo to the finals

more prolific player than allen

[BuffaloBill]

Ray did it against the 08 Lakers. Could AI do it ? Doubt it.



1st. Don't compare the 08 Lakers to the Kobe and Shaq Lakers. Never.



2nd. Ray had Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Rajon Rondo. Iverson had Aaron Mckie.

[roffie]

iverson..

[Punpun]

Bynum + Gasol > Shaq. There I said it.

[fatboy11]

Allen Iverson won an MVP, a ROY and was 7 times All-NBA and led a team to the Finals. Ray Allen has been All-NBA twice and never came close to sniffing an MVP.

Ray Allen teaming with two other future HOFers to win a ring shouldn't put him in over Iverson, who never played with a HOF caliber player outside of a declining Mutombo (and he only played two years with Deke).

Allen Iverson, hands down. We're talking about individual greatness here, so teaming with two other HOF players doesn't weight very heavily at all, IMO.

[D.J.]

Iverson no question. How quick people forget that AI was a 30+ PPG and led a Sixers team to the Finals that basically consisted of Aaron McKie, Eric Snow, and 35 year old Dikembe Mutombo. Ray Allen was good, but even at his best, he was a minimum 1 tier below AI.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Iverson. I don't really see the arguement for Allen.

[AMISTILLILL]

You have to establish a criteria for this sort of thing. Are you speaking strictly from their play, or do career achievements weigh in? Does overall impact on the style and culture of the game factor in at all? Longevity of career? Both guys have cases for being better than another, depending on the criteria.

[fatboy11]

For those clamoring for Ray Allen - state your case. You can't just say his name and not back it up.

[ImmortalD24]

Iverson had the DPOY, 6th Man of the Year and the COTY. LMAO at "no help".. That team was easily the most stacked team in the leastern conference. It took them 7 games to beat the Bucks, and then got backdoor swept in the finals after winning game 1 in overtime.

[StateOfMind12]

Iverson, but it's closer than what some people are suggesting in this thread.

The main reason why I went with Iverson is due to his superior playmaking ability. Ray was much more efficient than Iverson but Ray also played with better offensive players than Iverson ever did when they were both leaders/best players on their team.

[D.J.]

Iverson had the DPOY, 6th Man of the Year and the COTY. LMAO at "no help".. That team was easily the most stacked team in the leastern conference. It took them 7 games to beat the Bucks, and then got backdoor swept in the finals after winning game 1 in overtime.


They were stacked defensively. Offensively, it was the Philadelphia Iversons. Even though that team was designed for AI's style of play, they were an average offensive team WITH Iverson. They're lucky if they make the playoffs without AI.

[AK47DR91]

As much as people have forgotten how good Iverson was during his first stint in Philly, people have also forgotten how great Allen was in Milwaukee. He wasn't just a long-range 3-point shooter like Reggie Miller was, who always get compared to Allen.

Allen was more than that. He was a great all-around player. He was kinda like early 2000's McGrady and Kobe but with much much less hype.

But Iverson will stand out more because he changed the way the point guard was supposed to play. He's also the greatest "little man" ever to play the game. A.I. was just one of a kind player.

Allen can easily but compared to McGrady, Mullin, Miller, Pierce, Melo, etc.

[fatboy11]

Iverson had the DPOY, 6th Man of the Year and the COTY. LMAO at "no help".. That team was easily the most stacked team in the leastern conference. It took them 7 games to beat the Bucks, and then got backdoor swept in the finals after winning game 1 in overtime.

Is that your argument?

[ImmortalD24]

Put Ray Allen in place of Iverson during his stint with the Nuggets.. Does anyone here think the Nuggets would be worse off?

[StateOfMind12]

Replace Ray Allen with Iverson on during his stint on the Nuggets.. Does anyone think they'd be worse off?
This is such a dumb argument. Replace Durant with LeBron on the 2011 Heat and they would win a title opposed to flaming out in the finals. Too bad everyone knows LeBron was better than Durant then and by the way, Durant is my favorite player too.

[fatboy11]

Put Ray Allen in place of Iverson during his stint with the Nuggets.. Does anyone here think the Nuggets would be worse off?

Is that your argument?

[AK47DR91]

As much as people have forgotten how good Iverson was during his first stint in Philly, people have also forgotten how great Allen was in Milwaukee. He wasn't just a long-range 3-point shooter like Reggie Miller was, who always get compared to Allen.

Allen was more than that. He was a great all-around player. He was kinda like early 2000's McGrady and Kobe but with much much less hype.

But Iverson will stand out more because he changed the way the point guard was supposed to play. He's also the greatest "little man" ever to play the game. A.I. was just one of a kind player.

Allen can easily but compared to McGrady, Mullin, Miller, Pierce, Melo, etc.
Oh, forgot say which player I rank higher or prefer.

Based on accomplishments, Iverson is obviously higher on the ranking. But I'd rather have Allen on my team. I'd also say Allen is the better all-around basketball player. His longevity proves that.

Iverson has the accolades, awards and stats but that doesn't automatically make him the better player.

TL; DR version:
Iverson is higher on the ranking because of his awards and accolades
Allen is the better overall player(imo) and team player.
More legendary? Iverson easily, because he was one of a kind player.
Better career? better player? I don't know.

[ImmortalD24]

This is such a dumb argument. Replace Durant with LeBron on the 2011 Heat and they would win a title opposed to flaming out in the finals. Too bad everyone knows LeBron was better than Durant then and by the way, Durant is my favorite player too.
Who knows if Durant leads the Heat to the finals in 2011.. It's certainly not a given, especially during the Bulls series where LeBron essentially carried the Heat. Does Durant abuse Deng like the way LeBron did? I doubt it.

Back on topic.. I'm talking about his entire stint.. I'm not nitpicking 1 particular season.

[BallsOut]

I would put Ray higher. He wins in terms of longevity and shooting ability.

[francesco totti]

Iverson , people are quick to forget who he was.Back in the days he was the face of the NBA at one point and considered the best in business.Ray allen never reached those heights.

[fatboy11]

How come the Bucks weren't better with Ray at the helm? They certainly had at least comparable talent. Some seasons they had more talent.

That weighs heavily with me. What each player did in their prime and when they were the top option on their respective teams.

[martycrane]

For those clamoring for Ray Allen - state your case. You can't just say his name and not back it up.


i think ray was able to have a positive effect on a team more consistenly then ai. literally every team franchise ai ever played for got sick of him and dumped him. if he was so great to helpin them win they woulda still put up with him rite? the boy was very talented but i dont think that makes u great. ray allen is all time 3 point shooter and been coveted as a player byteams his whole career. thats great.

[fatboy11]

i think ray was able to have a positive effect on a team more consistenly then ai. literally every team franchise ai ever played for got sick of him and dumped him. if he was so great to helpin them win they woulda still put up with him rite? the boy was very talented but i dont think that makes u great. ray allen is all time 3 point shooter and been coveted as a player byteams his whole career. thats great.

Really?

You need to come a little stronger than that.

How come the Bucks never really did anything with Ray Allen? If he had such a positive effect....and did Milwaukee not trade Ray Allen for an aging Gary Payton?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing a compelling enough argument for Ray Allen. Being a better teammate doesn't make you a better individual player, and Allen Iverson was a dominant player. Just never had the requisite help to win a championship, and his Sixer squad peaked at a bad time (against a very, very powerful Laker squad with two of the all-time greats).

[Mr Exlax]

I would rather Ray Allen strictly because he's a better SG. Iverson is hands down the better basketball player though. Then the other thing. Once is Jesus Shuttlesworth and the other in The Canswer.

[martycrane]

Really?

You need to come a little stronger than that.

How come the Bucks never really did anything with Ray Allen? If he had such a positive effect....and did Milwaukee not trade Ray Allen for an aging Gary Payton?

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing a compelling enough argument for Ray Allen. Being a better teammate doesn't make you a better individual player, and Allen Iverson was a dominant player. Just never had the requisite help to win a championship, and his Sixer squad peaked at a bad time (against a very, very powerful Laker squad with two of the all-time greats).

When u resort to comparing team achievements to compare players u have a bad argument. i could just say 'ray has a ring! he wins!' ur makin excuses bout who iversons teams played against etc, i could look for excuses for the bucks. ur not comparing the two players.

ray is the alltime three shooter. thats a fact. he had a longer career of being effective and actually helpin teams. fact. u have ur reasons for ai im sure, were prob just different. i value ways of making teams run better however possible, u may value crossovers and high ppg on low % shooting. thats ok, its just diff strokes.

but like i said, i think mostteams would draft ray rite now over ai, what does that tell u

[ralph_i_el]

Oh wait. No. He doesn't even have a Yuroleague MVP.

:yaohappy:

you don't even have a brain.

I'd take Iverson. Mvp, Took a shitty team to the finals

[ralph_i_el]

Bynum + Gasol > Shaq. There I said it.

Shaq+any 4 > Bynum+ Gasol

how can you compare 2 players to 1?

[martycrane]

you don't even have a brain.

I'd take Iverson. Mvp, Took a shitty team to the finals

ok so his team sucked and he dragged them to the finals?

lebron and kobe had bad teams and combined to make 1 finals with crappy rosters.

u have ai = lebron and ai>kobe?

thats directly what ur 'team achievement' argument says. its just a false argument to help u make the case u alrdy decided to make. its weak.

[Punpun]

you don't even have a brain.

I need no brain to state facts.

:yaohappy:

[ProfessorMurder]

Iverson, come on you guys. It's pretty easy.

I'd rather have Ray on my team, but AI was a transcendent player for a few years.

[Legends66NBA7]

Allen Iverson.

Better prime, better career. He was very much the better player during their primes, so there would be your answer as to who's higher on the all-time SG list.

[Punpun]

how can you compare 2 players to 1?
By writing 2 names, then using a mathematicla symbol then writing another name.

***** u dumb.

:biggums:

[martycrane]

when u say id rather have ray but iverson is better, ur sayin u dont have the guts to give ur own opinion when u think most will disagree.

why would u want an inferior player? if ud rather have ray, how can u say iverson is better? bc of attitude and longevity?

who would u rather have, ray or shaq? despite attitude n longevity, u rather have shaq

if udtake ray, then u think hes a better player. period. dont be a cowherd.

[Crown&Coke]

AI dude, and its not even close

and it aint even because I hate Shuttlesworth after the ESPY award saying "another win in LA"

AI was dominating the league for a few years. let that marinate for a minute. He dominated the league. A 160lbs dude was making the opposition look silly in a time you could handcheck.

People forget RayRay played a little point for Seattle and McMillan, he had an overall game beyond shooting, but it isn't up to par against AI other than longevity

[ralph_i_el]

ok so his team sucked and he dragged them to the finals?

lebron and kobe had bad teams and combined to make 1 finals with crappy rosters.

u have ai = lebron and ai>kobe?

thats directly what ur 'team achievement' argument says. its just a false argument to help u make the case u alrdy decided to make. its weak.

nope because we aren't talking about them. The only way that would make any sense is if Ray Allen was an MVP.

Ray never took his team to the finals as the best player. AI did. That's what I am saying

AI has an MVP, Ray doesn't

[Freedom Kid7]

Depends on how you rank. Going by who had the better peak? Iverson takes that
Going by longevity? Ray wins it.
I feel it can go either way, but I have to give the edge Ray. Iverson's '01 was fantastic, but Ray was able to accept to back off and play a role that wasn't the 1st man, something Iverson was truly never able to do. Because of that acceptance, Ray got a ring and Iverson became a problem late in his career.

[fatboy11]

When u resort to comparing team achievements to compare players u have a bad argument. i could just say 'ray has a ring! he wins!' ur makin excuses bout who iversons teams played against etc, i could look for excuses for the bucks. ur not comparing the two players.

Please, look for excuses for the Bucks. Guess who you'll find? Allen Iverson and the 76ers!

I'm not "resorting" to comparing team achievements. That does mean a lot when you're talking about what a given player's team did while he was the #1 player on the team and in his prime. You could talk about Ray Allen having a ring, but that would actually be resorting because he wasn't even the 2nd option on that team and he was playing with two HOF players. It's unfair comparison with Iverson because he never had that. It is fair to compare Ray Allen's Bucks to Iverson's Sixers. You just don't want to because it hurts your argument that Iverson led lesser talented teams to more success than Ray did with Big Dog Robinson and Sam Cassell....


ray is the alltime three shooter. thats a fact. he had a longer career of being effective and actually helpin teams. fact. u have ur reasons for ai im sure, were prob just different. i value ways of making teams run better however possible, u may value crossovers and high ppg on low % shooting. thats ok, its just diff strokes.

Allen Iverson was unstoppable. You can try to talk down to me about valuing crossovers (?), but that doesn't change the fact that NO ONE could stop Allen Iverson from scoring. He shot a low % because he didn't have any offensive help. He didn't have Paul Pierce or Kevin Garnett or Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell or Rashard Lewis and Flip Murray to help him offensively. It was all him. He could have averaged close to 10 assists a game some years if he had some weapons like that. But even despite all that, his teams were still better than Ray's Bucks teams with Ray as the best player. That says a lot. I really don't care if Iverson started to flame out before Ray Allen.


but like i said, i think mostteams would draft ray rite now over ai, what does that tell u

It tells me that Ray Allen is better right now. It doesn't tell me who was better in their prime or who had a better career.

Iverson = NBA MVP and 7 time All-NBA
Ray Allen = 2 time All-NBA, no MVP, no real success until teaming up with two other future HOF players

What does that tell you?

[martycrane]

ppl keep sayin like iversons 76ers were so bad and give him all the credit for makin the finals.

jordan never took a crap team to the finals. either did garnett. or kobe.

ai > jordan, kg, kobe??

see what happens when u pretend a team game is bout just 1 guy?

[ProfessorMurder]

Ray never took his team to the finals as the best player. AI did. That's what I am saying

Ray got the Bucks to game 7 of the ECF, not that much of a difference than winning 1 finals game.

[fatboy11]

ppl keep sayin like iversons 76ers were so bad and give him all the credit for makin the finals.

jordan never took a crap team to the finals. either did garnett. or kobe.

ai > jordan, kg, kobe??

see what happens when u pretend a team game is bout just 1 guy?

That Sixer team was nasty defensively.

No offense at all outside of Iverson. That's what people are talking about when they say they're crappy. Doesn't matter how good your defense is, if you can't score points outside of one guy, you aren't going to beat Shaq and Kobe in their primes.

[fatboy11]

Ray got the Bucks to game 7 of the ECF, not that much of a difference than winning 1 finals game.

Who knocked them out of the playoffs that year?

[Crown&Coke]

Who knocked them out of the playoffs that year?

:applause:

[ProfessorMurder]

Who knocked them out of the playoffs that year?

That has to do with what?

[Punpun]

Who knocked them out of the playoffs that year?

Larry Brown. Why ?

[fatboy11]

That has to do with what?

Normally, it wouldn't be all that relevant.

However, I mean, come on. We're talking about Ray Allen vs. Allen Iverson and you bring up the Bucks making it to Game 7 of the ECF and that not being that much different than just going to the Finals......but it was Iverson that put Ray out of the playoffs.

Surely we can all see that that should count for something here. Head-to-head in their best years as #1 options and Iverson comes out on top. :confusedshrug:

[Mach_3]

Iverson, come on you guys. It's pretty easy.

I'd rather have Ray on my team, but AI was a transcendent player for a few years.

This, prime Ray is a great piece for any team but Allen Iverson was much more unstoppable as a player

[Kblaze8855]

Iverson by enough that I read this topic just for a laugh.

[martycrane]

That Sixer team was nasty defensively.

No offense at all outside of Iverson. That's what people are talking about when they say they're crappy. Doesn't matter how good your defense is, if you can't score points outside of one guy, you aren't going to beat Shaq and Kobe in their primes.

yeah but if they had more options on offense ai prob woulda caused problems. he can only play by himself. when he teamed wit carmelo they were a first round doormat. even with guys like camby, kmart on defense. ur tellin me those nuggets teams were better than his sixers?

dude can only play one way, he got lucky it all fell in place one year when he was surrounded by professionals. theres a reason hes called the canswer bro. it didnt come from nowhere. theres a reason he has a huge rep as a malcontent, selfish player, defensive liability, low iq, all these things. they did t fall out the sky.

theres a reason guys like derek fisher, ray allen, james posey, sam cassell have been key players in MULTIPLE finals and with different organiztions. brains and sensibility are part of greatness, not just chucking and me-first street ball 30 ppg. When he didnt have a team exactly tailord for his selfish style, he was nothin and like 5 diff teams cluldnt wait to get rid of himo

if it were t for that 1 finals year, where would iverson be? that one team achievement is all ppl have to hang on to. ray allen is a better professional team basketball player, thats what the nba is b

[DaHeezy]

Who knocked them out of the playoffs that year?

To be fair, Sixers were damn lucky they had home court in the EC. It saved them against the Bucks and the Raptors. Otherwise I'd say the trip to the finals could very well be a wash

But continue...

[ProfessorMurder]

Normally, it wouldn't be all that relevant.

However, I mean, come on. We're talking about Ray Allen vs. Allen Iverson and you bring up the Bucks making it to Game 7 of the ECF and that not being that much different than just going to the Finals......but it was Iverson that put Ray out of the playoffs.

Surely we can all see that that should count for something here. Head-to-head in their best years as #1 options and Iverson comes out on top. :confusedshrug:

I already said AI was better on the all-time list on the last page.

Sixers win in 7 and go to the finals. Win one, then get crushed in 4 straight.
Bucks take Sixers to 7.

I'm just saying Ray took his team pretty far, and there's not much difference in my mind between losing a tough ECF in 7, or getting walloped in the finals.

[fatboy11]

yeah but if they had more options on offense ai prob woulda caused problems. he can only play by himself. when he teamed wit carmelo they were a first round doormat. even with guys like camby, kmart on defense. ur tellin me those nuggets teams were better than his sixers?

Iverson was too set in his ways by then, and he wasn't the player he once was. Even though Ray was hurt this year, his body has held up better than Iverson's did. And I'll give Ray credit for being able to adapt his role much better than Iverson. I just don't think that's enough to rank him higher than Iverson in terms of greatness.


dude can only play one way, he got lucky it all fell in place one year when he was surrounded by professionals. theres a reason hes called the canswer bro. it didnt come from nowhere. theres a reason he has a huge rep as a malcontent, selfish player, defensive liability, low iq, all these things. they did t fall out the sky.

No one is denying the fact that he wasn't a perfect teammate, but it's pretty hard to deny the fact that that, in their primes, Iverson was better than Ray Allen.


theres a reason guys like derek fisher, ray allen, james posey, sam cassell have been key players in MULTIPLE finals and with different organiztions. brains and sensibility are part of greatness, not just chucking and me-first stret all 30 ppg.

You're right. That is a part of greatness, but it's not a bigger part than actually being great. Iverson is a rare player. You could almost argue that there's never been anyone like him on that level.


if it were t for that 1 finals year, where would iverson be? that one team achievement is all ppl have to hang on to. ray allen is a better professional team basketball player, thats what the nba is b

He was the MVP of the entire league that year, and got SERIOUS consideration in other seasons unlike someone else involved in this debate....

[fatboy11]

To be fair, Sixers were damn lucky they had home court in the EC. It saved them against the Bucks and the Raptors. Otherwise I'd say the trip to the finals could very well be a wash

But continue...

They were lucky they had home court?

Or did you mean to say "if it wasn't for the fact that they were a better team and did better in the regular season to earn home court"?

[Dbrog]

AI dude, and its not even close

and it aint even because I hate Shuttlesworth after the ESPY award saying "another win in LA"

AI was dominating the league for a few years. let that marinate for a minute. He dominated the league. A 160lbs dude was making the opposition look silly in a time you could handcheck.

People forget RayRay played a little point for Seattle and McMillan, he had an overall game beyond shooting, but it isn't up to par against AI other than longevity

This. It's painstakingly obvious who saw AI and Rayray in their primes and who didn't. It simply isn't close. Allen is one of the best 2nd options of All-Time and might be the greatest shooter ever. He's no AI though. I think it's funny someone mentioned AI being greater than Kobe as joke. However, it's funny because it's not a joke. AI was better than Kobe and that isn't even debatable. Now, prime Kobe, ok you have an argument but even then, it's VERY close.

AI was THAT good. Maybe it's just impossible to understand from highlight reels. This little dude was taking on fking SHAQ and DUNCAN and holding his own! If he would've won a ring, he's instant top 20 alltime for me. Ray, even with a ring, is simply top 100...maybe around 60 range or something (still great!).

Point is, the gap is so immense that it's just ridiculous to even try to argue for Ray.

edit: As far as the longevity is concerned, AI scored over 26 ppg for 11 straight years! Find someone else who has done that. It's a small list.

[Kiddlovesnets]

Well for someone who won scoring title while shooting 39% from the field...
:rolleyes:

[fatboy11]

I already said AI was better on the all-time list on the last page.

Sixers win in 7 and go to the finals. Win one, then get crushed in 4 straight.
Bucks take Sixers to 7.

I'm just saying Ray took his team pretty far, and there's not much difference in my mind between losing a tough ECF in 7, or getting walloped in the finals.

I know what you're saying.

But it's too easy to turn that into "if it wasn't for Allen Iverson", Ray Allen would have made it to the Finals with the Bucks. If it wasn't for Allen Iverson....

I realize you just threw that out there to help Ray Allen's case some (even though you did say Iverson was better), but when it's Iverson putting him out, it doesn't really land.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Iverson was the better player.


yeah but if they had more options on offense ai prob woulda caused problems. he can only play by himself. when he teamed wit carmelo they were a first round doormat. even with guys like camby, kmart on defense. ur tellin me those nuggets teams were better than his sixers?

dude can only play one way, he got lucky it all fell in place one year when he was surrounded by professionals. theres a reason hes called the canswer bro. it didnt come from nowhere. theres a reason he has a huge rep as a malcontent, selfish player, defensive liability, low iq, all these things. they did t fall out the sky.

theres a reason guys like derek fisher, ray allen, james posey, sam cassell have been key players in MULTIPLE finals and with different organiztions. brains and sensibility are part of greatness, not just chucking and me-first street ball 30 ppg. When he didnt have a team exactly tailord for his selfish style, he was nothin and like 5 diff teams cluldnt wait to get rid of himo

if it were t for that 1 finals year, where would iverson be? that one team achievement is all ppl have to hang on to. ray allen is a better professional team basketball player, thats what the nba is b

I agree with your premise but also think you're selling him a little short. Denver played a very good Spurs team...in the first round (with a healthy Manu Ginobili). AI at his absolute best was a 6'0 prime Kobe with Wade-like finishing.

[jstern]

Iverson was such a big name superstar MVP, it's amazing what time does to a player in the eyes of many people.

[Jailblazers7]

I already said AI was better on the all-time list on the last page.

Sixers win in 7 and go to the finals. Win one, then get crushed in 4 straight.
Bucks take Sixers to 7.

I'm just saying Ray took his team pretty far, and there's not much difference in my mind between losing a tough ECF in 7, or getting walloped in the finals.

That one win in the Finals was the only game that '01 Lakers team lost in the playoffs tho which makes it more impressive than just some random win in the series.

[martycrane]

This. It's painstakingly obvious who saw AI and Rayray in their primes and who didn't. It simply isn't close. Allen is one of the best 2nd options of All-Time and might be the greatest shooter ever. He's no AI though. I think it's funny someone mentioned AI being greater than Kobe as joke. However, it's funny because it's not a joke. AI was better than Kobe and that isn't even debatable. Now, prime Kobe, ok you have an argument but even then, it's VERY close.

AI was THAT good. Maybe it's just impossible to understand from highlight reels. This little dude was taking on fking SHAQ and DUNCAN and holding his own! If he would've won a ring, he's instant top 20 alltime for me. Ray, even with a ring, is simply top 100...maybe around 60 range or something (still great!).

Point is, the gap is so immense that it's just ridiculous to even try to argue for Ray.

edit: As far as the longevity is concerned, AI scored over 26 ppg for 11 straight years! Find someone else who has done that. It's a small list.

its painstaking obvious that ppl see bball diff ways. some ppl see it as a team game whereas others see more individuals. when u say u think iverson is a better player if he wins a ring even if his talent is still the same, it means when teams do somethin u only see individuals. if u argue him bc "he" made a finals u just see individuals. history doesnt say 'nba finals La Lakers vs Allen Iverson' but u see it that way.

a team that wants to win a team championsip would draft 19 yr old ray over 19 yr old ai today knowing what we know. theyd know theyd still need more but theyd like their odds long term with ray then with ai gauranteed. whatever guy ud rather have tryin to win a title, i think hes greater. were not talkin bout points and flashy skills. kids think bball is what espn makes it. they think carmelo is a superstar n is better than rodman. they think ai helps a pro team win in basketball when except for 1 year, he really does t

[martycrane]

to clarify above i think iverson had a ton of positive impact n talent, but bc his main talent was volume scoring ppl overrate that in general and overlook his damning flaws that cancel a lot of it out.

[PHILA]

Put Ray Allen in place of Iverson during his stint with the Nuggets.. Does anyone here think the Nuggets would be worse off?

Based on team impact, Iverson was clearly Denver's best player during his brief time there.

http://basketballvalue.com/


2007 Playoffs (Iverson)

On: -5.11

Off: -22.58

Net: 17.47



2007 Playoffs (Melo)

On: -5.59

Off: -12.24

Net: 6.65




2008 Regular Season (Iverson)

On: 4.78

Off: -5.15

Net: 9.94



2008 Regular Season (Melo)

On: 2.48

Off: 5.63

Net: -3.15




2008 Playoffs (Iverson)

On: -14.45

Off: -6.94

Net: -7.51




2008 Playoffs (Melo)

On: -17.45

Off: -0.10

Net: -17.35

[DaHeezy]

They were lucky they had home court?

Or did you mean to say "if it wasn't for the fact that they were a better team and did better in the regular season to earn home court"?

However way you put it they were fortunate. To me that finals run could have been a wash considering that it took a game 7 to finish the Bucks and the Raptors in which home court was the decider, and the way they got massacred in the finals. I don't neccessarily credit AI for his playoff success.

but all other accolades I stand behind firmly

[Dbrog]

its painstaking obvious that ppl see bball diff ways. some ppl see it as a team game whereas others see more individuals. when u say u think iverson is a better player if he wins a ring even if his talent is still the same, it means when teams do somethin u only see individuals. if u argue him bc "he" made a finals u just see individuals. history doesnt say 'nba finals La Lakers vs Allen Iverson' but u see it that way.

a team that wants to win a team championsip would draft 19 yr old ray over 19 yr old ai today knowing what we know. theyd know theyd still need more but theyd like their odds long term with ray then with ai gauranteed. whatever guy ud rather have tryin to win a title, i think hes greater. were not talkin bout points and flashy skills. kids think bball is what espn makes it. they think carmelo is a superstar n is better than rodman. they think ai helps a pro team win in basketball when except for 1 year, he really does t

No, it means he wasn't able to elevate his teammates to a high enough level (despite how good/bad their skills were) to win a chip. That's a knock on him. It's just not a big enough knock to take away from what else he did.

Btw, I promise you 100% of GMs would take AI over Ray knowing what they know now. Owners want superstars and players who put butts in seats. Few people did that better than AI. He is LEGENDARY! Changed the game type stuff. Yes, he was that transcendent whether you want to admit it or not. It's not about him being flashy, or putting the ball in the hole, he was someone everyone pulled for. He inspired people. It was truly magical at the time (people were desperate after Jordan left). You can't take that away from him, but it disappoints me that his story seems to be being forgotten or warped as time goes on.

[Deuce Bigalow]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Manu Ginobili
6. Clyde Drexler
7. Ray Allen
8. Allen Iverson
9. George Gervin
10. Reggie Miller
:roll:

[martycrane]

No, it means he wasn't able to elevate his teammates to a high enough level (despite how good/bad their skills were) to win a chip. That's a knock on him. It's just not a big enough knock to take away from what else he did.

Btw, I promise you 100% of GMs would take AI over Ray knowing what they know now. Owners want superstars and players who put butts in seats. Few people did that better than AI. He is LEGENDARY! Changed the game type stuff. Yes, he was that transcendent whether you want to admit it or not. It's not about him being flashy, or putting the ball in the hole, he was someone everyone pulled for. He inspired people. It was truly magical at the time (people were desperate after Jordan left). You can't take that away from him, but it disappoints me that his story seems to be being forgotten or warped as time goes on.

guess it depends how u see bball. some ppl relate to iversons revilution of attitude, streetball, dressin unprofessional, keepin it real, 'practice?' etc, and some ppl consider it more of a dark period between 90s era an the current era of more professional, hard workin team oriented superstars. just depends who u are an how u see it. iverson was def an icon but not everything that was once a fad is all that great in retrospect. a lot of ppl who were happy to see a small dude who acted ghetto become popular bu it also made a lot of other types of ppl roll their eyes. not the same as jordan or shaq who had styles/personalities more universally admired in their prime.

thats got nuthin todo wit bball greatness anyways tho. I think a smart player who is the all time best shooter is greater than a guy whos only value is if hes allowed to shoot unlimited times to score 30 ppg on 39% shooting bc most teams could make up for those points. Maybe not his 76ers whih is why it was a perfect fit, but most teams wouldnt need ai to 'be ai' and if hes not, hes worthless. Ray shoots 3s better than any other teams 3 pt shooterstherefore hed be very valuable to all teams

[Wally450]

1st. Don't compare the 08 Lakers to the Kobe and Shaq Lakers. Never.



2nd. Ray had Kevin Garnett, Paul Pierce, and Rajon Rondo. Iverson had Aaron Mckie.


Don't say he had Rondo, he wasn't close to developed at that time

[ralph_i_el]

By writing 2 names, then using a mathematicla symbol then writing another name.

***** u dumb.

:biggums:

well i guess you're right if shaq doesn't have a power forward playing with him.

james harden+russel westbrook > lebron

but it really doesn't say anything

[ralph_i_el]

Ray got the Bucks to game 7 of the ECF, not that much of a difference than winning 1 finals game.

but he lost....to the guy we're comparing him to.

[jbryan1984]

As much as I love Ray Allen, please get your ass serious. AI himself in that infamous interview at the practice arena could tell you the reasons. "I don't know any former MVP, Scoring Champion, 50 time All-star, 50 time All NBA who comes off the bench". Do you?

[GOBB]

I dont care what anyone has said. Ray Allen never impacted the game like Iverson did. Ray can play another 3 years. Cool story bro. Iverson should always be ranked over Ray Allen. Iverson was Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson. Ray Allen is Curtis Martin.

[RaininTwos]

Someone needs to pistol whip OP and take every gadget dude uses to access ISH.

[martycrane]

As much as I love Ray Allen, please get your ass serious. AI himself in that infamous interview at the practice arena could tell you the reasons. "I don't know any former MVP, Scoring Champion, 50 time All-star, 50 time All NBA who comes off the bench". Do you?

no but i kno 1 that had to go play in turkmenistan

[Owl]

I think people forget just how good Allen Iverson was.



Could Ray Allen carry the 2001 Sixers to the finals and pull off a win against the Shaq and Kobe Lakers? :lol





no :no:
No, because that team was built around AI. Lots of good defenders who don't want the ball much and a fairly tall pg so AI can defend the pg spot. Apart from a year with Melo (by which time he was the secondary star) he couldn't work with anyone else who wanted the ball.

But then could AI subliate his ego to work with Garnett and Pierce? Given how his NBA career ended one suspects not.

AI was more marketable, probably more talented, and able to score a lot, and get to the line enough that his shooting was okay efficiency wise. There are a few negative intangible there though.

Ray Allen has been a better teammate, easier to coach, is easier to build around. That said he was less able to create shots than I would have thought off the top of my head (his scoring averages are very consistent but no great peak).

They are very different stylistically so context would be a big part of who you'd want. Outside of any context I'd slightly lean Ray because you can see/have seen him contributing on a really good team. I fear the best team you could build around AI would be a wealthy mans version of the '01 Sixers.

[WockaVodka]

Iverson is a better #1 option, Allen is better at every other option though.

[GOBB]

No, because that team was built around AI. Lots of good defenders who don't want the ball much and a fairly tall pg so AI can defend the pg spot. Apart from a year with Melo (by which time he was the secondary star) he couldn't work with anyone else who wanted the ball.

But then could AI subliate his ego to work with Garnett and Pierce? Given how his NBA career ended one suspects not.

AI was more marketable, probably more talented, and able to score a lot, and get to the line enough that his shooting was okay efficiency wise. There are a few negative intangible there though.

Ray Allen has been a better teammate, easier to coach, is easier to build around. That said he was less able to create shots than I would have thought off the top of my head (his scoring averages are very consistent but no great peak).

They are very different stylistically so context would be a big part of who you'd want. Outside of any context I'd slightly lean Ray because you can see/have seen him contributing on a really good team. I fear the best team you could build around AI would be a wealthy mans version of the '01 Sixers.

Melo is the only comparable talent to KG/Pierce that AI has played with. Not sure his ego got in the way of that working. The guys surrounded around AI werent even on KG/Pierce level. Had they been it would have been nice to see to show fans if he could coexist. Glen Robb? He wasnt even the same Glenn Rob Ray Allen played with. Chris Webber? He wasnt the Sac Kings Webber. Kukoc? Laughable. I cant think of players they put around AI that worked. And AI is not the type to set up guys like Steve Nash. He's a scorer like Kobe only mgmt put pieces around Kobe. AI? Not so much.

[Boston C's]

I'm probably one of rays biggest fans but hes not better all time then A.I... honestly its closer then some ppl make it out to be and what seperates it is that A.I's peak was just so great that it really makes up for his longevity gap and its not like A.I had bad longevity he was a top flight scorer for about a decade...now if his longevity was like tracy mcgrady (sadly mcgrady could have been one of the best if he could of stayed healthy) then this would be a completely different discussion but its not...btw ppl who are saying a.i carried a crap team to the finals are sure as hell quick to forget that he played with the coach of the yr, sixth man of the yr, and defensive player of the yr... he had a great defensive team and the team was built the way he wanted it so iverson could gun it as much as possible...lets also not forget that the bucks series was extremely controversial in how it ended... 2 lane violations in a row to end a game and a bogus out of bounds call...look it up ppl it was also said that david stern himself was CHEERING for the sixers at the games...if that doesnt show conspiracy then idk what does

[Draz]

Iverson for sure.

[lbj23clutch]

Peak Iverson was on a whole different level, People forget peak AI was once better then T Mac and Kobe. Only reason this is a comparison is because of longevity and Ray's championship.

[rawimpact]

I bet half the idiots here are too young to of even watched iverson play... the dude alongside eric snow lead the 76ers to compete with prime shaq and young kobe... "The Answer" was one of the best scorers of all time and if you consider his size you can argue THE best of all time. With that said, there is no doubt that iverson belongs higher than ray despite ray's longevity.

[ripthekik]

Iverson, absolutely no question.
I like Ray, but don't see him as the type to be able to carry his own team as a superstar. When I think of him, I see him as more of a role-type of player.

[RRR3]

Iverson, absolutely no question.
I like Ray, but don't see him as the type to be able to carry his own team as a superstar. When I think of him, I see him as more of a role-type of player.
You don't remember prime Ray Allen, do you?:rolleyes:

[ripthekik]

You don't remember prime Ray Allen, do you?:rolleyes:
The one that lost to AI in the playoffs?
Which one, put up some stats and remind me? :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

The one that lost to AI in the playoffs?
Which one, put up some stats and remind me? :confusedshrug:
I never said he was better than AI, but he was definitely a superstar back in his heyday.

[Boston C's]

You don't remember prime Ray Allen, do you?:rolleyes:

most of these ppl here are probably 16 and under lol...they probably think he just was a catch and shoot specialist his whole career :rolleyes:

[Tinseltime17]

I never said he was better than AI, but he was definitely a superstar back in his heyday.
It's debatable. I'm not sure if Ray was flashy enough to qualify as a superstar. He was never a top 5 player like Iverson was either. I would rather have Ray on my team but I think Iverson was the better player. Ray just fits with more teams and systems.

[D.J.]

It's debatable.


No it's not. He most certainly was a superstar. From 2000-2007, the fewest amount of points he averaged was 21.3. In a 8 year span:


22.1/4.4/3.8
22.0/5.2/4.6
21.3/4.5/3.9
22.5/5.0/4.4
23.0/5.1/4.8
23.9/4.4/3.7
25.1/4.3/3.7
26.4/4.5/4.1


And you think it's debatable? :facepalm

[Linspired]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Manu Ginobili
6. Clyde Drexler
7. Ray Allen
8. Allen Iverson
9. George Gervin
10. Reggie Miller


what a joke of a list

[Tinseltime17]

No it's not. He most certainly was a superstar. From 2000-2007, the fewest amount of points he averaged was 21.3. In a 7 year span:


22.1/4.4/3.8
22.0/5.2/4.6
21.8/4.5/3.9
22.5/5.0/4.4
23.0/5.1/4.8
23.9/4.4/3.7
25.1/4.3/3.7
26.4/4.5/4.1


And you think it's debatable? :facepalm
If you are going by numbers only then doesn't Joe Johnson qualify as a superstar considering how he put up bigger and better numbers?

From 2005-2010, he put up pretty much the same numbers, actually better numbers.

[raprap]

Iverson was the better player in their prime. So him. Both will be hall of famers. Two of the best perimeter players post-jordan. :applause:

[D.J.]

If you are going by numbers only then doesn't Joe Johnson qualify as a superstar considering how he put up bigger and better numbers?

From 2005-2010, he put up pretty much the same numbers, actually better numbers.


Not really. If you take away JJ's 25 PPG season where he played in only 57 games, JJ's highest PPG total was 21.7. Ray topped that in all but one season.

[Legends66NBA7]

You don't remember prime Ray Allen, do you?

I have to ask you a question, what do you qualify as a superstar in the league ?

[Smoke117]

Ray Allen. I think Iverson is the most overrated player ever.

[sillyrbbt_11]

this board loves to disrespect Iverson so much its crazy

nobody ever wants to give this man his credit

Ray Allen was great in his ownright but Iverson was always a step above

amazing when teaming him up with another player who knows who to put the ball in the rim he became a .45% shooter 25 PPG scorer thou

76ers defense was amazing in 2001 but offensively cmon now IVERSON was the reason we got to the nba finals (beating a Ray Allen led Bucks along the way :lol )

came into LA and beat them Game 1 and lost heartbreakers in Game 2 and 3

[JM720]

Iverson, no question at all.

[JM720]

Iverson was such a big name superstar MVP, it's amazing what time does to a player in the eyes of many people.

Yeah shit is crazy.

[RIP CITY]

Iverson and it's not even close...

Iverson led the Sixers to the Playoffs 5 times during Ray's years with the Bucks, where he led the Bucks to the Playoffs 3 times. Iverson then led the Sixers to the Playoffs 1 more time during the years Ray was the leader in Seattle, where Ray also took Seattle to the Playoffs 1 time. Iverson led the Sixers to the 2nd Round 3 times and the NBA Finals once, Allen led the Sonics/Bucks to the 2nd Round once (SEA) and the Eastern Conference Finals once (MIL).

So as #1 option, leaders of their team Iverson took the Sixers to the Playoffs 6 times, 3 times advancing to the 2nd Round, 1 Finals appearance compared to Allen's 4 Playoff trips, advancing to the 2nd Round once and the Conference Finals once. Those are the years where both players were the best player on their respective teams.

As far as teammates go, Allen was always surrounded by better players IMO. Glenn Robinson (who you could argue was the best player on some of those early Allen/Big Dog Bucks teams), Sam Cassell, Rashard Lewis all in their primes. Iverson played with Stackhouse for one season, a washed up broken down Chris Webber and a still great defensively but declining Dikembe Mutombo, all for less than 3 seasons. Allen played with Robinson, Cassell and Lewis for a minimum of 3 seasons. Admittedly, the Sixers team that beat Milwaukee in 2001 was the better overall team, mainly because of Iverson and their defense but it's the one main head to head matchup between the two players as leaders of their teams. Iverson literally destroyed Allen and the Bucks in that Series, Iverson completely outplayed Allen in that Series.

Then when you get into individual dominance, it goes in Iverson's favor and it's not even close. Iverson was literally the NBA's best scorer for several seasons, winning 4 scoring titles with Philadelphia. Iverson was considered a Top 5 player in the NBA for at least 5 seasons, Allen was arguably never a Top 5 player in the NBA. Iverson finished in the Top 5 for NBA MVP 3 times and in the Top 10 5 times. Ray Allen finished in the Top 10 once, 9th place, his best ever finish in MVP voting. During his peak, Iverson accomplished things that Ray Allen never came close to sniffing and had a much greater impact on games than Allen ever did.

Individual accomplishments wise, not close, Iverson wins that again. Iverson was named League MVP in 2001, as I pointed out, Allen never finished higher than 9th. In their Rookie year, 1996, Allen Iverson won Rookie of the Year. Iverson was named All-NBA 1st Team 3 times, 2nd Team 3 times and 3rd Team once. Allen was never named to the All-NBA 1st team, was named 2nd Team once and 3rd Team once. That's 7 to 2 Iverson.

Statistically, again, it's not even close, Iverson by a mile. Iverson finished Top 5 in Points Per Game 8 times, Top 10 12 times. Allen never finished in the Top 5 and only 4 times in the Top 10, with his highest being 6th once, 10th all 3 other times in the Top 10. Iverson's career PPG average ranks 6th All-Time at 26.7 PPG for his career, Ray Allen's career high was 26.4. Think about that for a second, even with Iverson's last 2 season's in the NBA being failure's by most accounts, his career average is still better than Ray Allen's career best season. Iverson scored 25 PPG or more 11 times, Allen scored 25 PPG or more twice. Iverson also ranks 2nd All-Time in Playoff PPG at 29.7 behind only Michael Jordan.

Iverson also led the NBA in steals 4 times during his career and finished in the Top 5 9 times. So while he was never a very good defensive player, he still made an impact on that end of the floor by stealing passes for fastbreak opportunities and keeping teams honest because of how great he was in the passing lanes. Let's not pretend like Ray Allen was a great defensive player either, he was solid at best minus his first season in Boston where he admittedly played pretty good defense that season/Playoff run. I would say that Allen is the better defender overall but not by enough of a margin to counteract the big gap there is offensively.

Iverson not only was more dominant individually but also had more team success during the years that they were both #1 options and superstars for their teams. Iverson was better in his peak years and his peak years lasted every bit as long as Allen's did. Iverson's longevity is actually better considering he was more dominant than Allen ever was and that dominance lasted just as long as Allen's best years lasted. All the team accomplishments Allen's now known for came when he was teamed with Two Hall of Fame players who were both better players than he was on his own team. Yes, they were the Big 3, but Garnett and Pierce were the best two players on that Championship team and every Boston team since until Rondo as well became better than Allen, making him the 4th best player on the Celtics. Iverson never had that luxury, whether he would have been able to fit in and make something like that work we'll never know but Ray Allen getting a ring with Garnett and Pierce leading the way shouldn't really be considered in a debate between who was the better NBA player, Iverson or Allen. So while Iverson may not have been the better teammate of the two, he led his teams to more success than Allen did when they were both at the top of their games. And he did all this while being at least 5 inches shorter than Allen.

Allen Iverson should be ranked higher on the All-Time SG list and it's not even close.

[roffie]

that guy with his own sneakers..

[ripthekik]

Iverson and it's not even close...

Iverson's led the Sixers to the Playoffs 5 times during Ray's years with the Bucks, where he led the Bucks to the Playoffs 3 times. Iverson then led the Sixers to the Playoffs 1 more time during the years Ray was the leader in Seattle, where Ray also took Seattle to the Playoffs 1 time. Iverson led the Sixers to the 2nd Round 3 times and the NBA Finals once, Allen led the Sonics/Bucks to the 2nd Round once (SEA) and the Eastern Conference Finals once (MIL).

So as #1 option, leaders of their team Iverson took the Sixers to the Playoffs 6 times, 3 times advancing to the 2nd Round, 1 Finals appearance compared to Allen's 4 Playoff trips, advancing to the 2nd Round once and the Conference Finals once. Those are the years where both players were the best player on their respective teams.

As far as teammates go, Allen was always surrounded by better players IMO. Glenn Robinson (who you could argue was the best player on some of those early Allen/Big Dog Bucks teams), Sam Cassell, Rashard Lewis all in their primes. Iverson played with Stackhouse for one season, a washed up broken down Chris Webber and a still great defensively but declining Dikembe Mutombo, all for less than 3 seasons. Allen played with Robinson, Cassell and Lewis for a minimum of 3 seasons. Admittedly, the Sixers team that beat Milwaukee in 2001 was the better overall team, mainly because of Iverson and their defense but it's the one main head to head matchup between the two players as leaders of their teams. Iverson literally destroyed Allen and the Bucks in that Series, Iverson completely outplayed Allen in that Series.

Then when you get into individual dominance, it goes in Iverson's favor and it's not even close. Iverson was literally the NBA's best scorer for several seasons, winning 4 scoring titles with Philadelphia. Iverson was considered a Top 5 player in the NBA for at least 5 seasons, Allen was arguably never a Top 5 player in the NBA. Iverson finished in the Top 5 for NBA MVP 3 times and in the Top 10 5 times. Ray Allen finished in the Top 10 once, 9th place, his best ever finish in MVP voting. During his peak, Iverson accomplished things that Ray Allen never came close to sniffing and had a much greater impact on games than Allen ever did.

Individual accomplishments wise, not close, Iverson wins that again. Iverson was named League MVP in 2001, as I pointed out, Allen never finished higher than 9th. In their Rookie year, 1996, Allen Iverson won Rookie of the Year. Iverson was named All-NBA 1st Team 3 times, 2nd Team 3 times and 3rd Team once. Allen was never named to the All-NBA 1st team, was named 2nd Team once and 3rd Team once. That's 7 to 2 Iverson.

Statistically, again, it's not even close, Iverson by a mile. Iverson finished Top 5 in Points Per Game 8 times, Top 10 12 times. Allen never finished in the Top 5 and only 4 times in the Top 10, with his highest being 6th once, 10th all 3 other times in the Top 10. Iverson's career PPG average ranks 6th All-Time at 26.7 PPG for his career, Ray Allen's career high was 26.4. Think about that for a second, even with Iverson's last 2 season's in the NBA being failure's by most accounts, his career average is still better than Ray Allen's career best season. Iverson scored 25 PPG or more 11 times, Allen scored 25 PPG or more twice. Iverson also ranks 2nd All-Time in Playoff PPG at 29.7 behind only Michael Jordan.

Iverson also led the NBA in steals 4 times during his career and finished in the Top 5 9 times. So while he was never a very good defensive player, he still made an impact on that end of the floor by stealing passes for fastbreak opportunities and keeping teams honest because of how great he was in the passing lanes. Let's not pretend like Ray Allen was a great defensive player either, he was solid at best minus his first season in Boston where he admittedly played pretty good defense that season/Playoff run. I would say that Allen is the better defender overall but not by enough of a margin to counteract the big gap there is offensively.

Iverson not only was more dominant individually but also had more team success during the years that they were both #1 options and superstars for their teams. Iverson was better in his peak years and his peak years lasted every bit as long as Allen's did. Iverson's longevity is actually better considering he was more dominant than Allen ever was and that dominance lasted just as long as Allen's best years lasted. All the team accomplishments Allen's now known for came when he was teamed with Two Hall of Fame players who were both better players than he was on his own team. Yes, they were the Big 3, but Garnett and Pierce were the best two players on that Championship team and every Boston since until Rondo as well became better than Allen, making him the 4th best player on the Celtics. Iverson never had that luxury, whether he would have been able to fit in and make something like that work we'll never know but Ray Allen getting a ring with Garnett and Pierce leading the way shouldn't really be considered in a debate between who was the better NBA player, Iverson or Allen. So while Iverson may not have been the better teammate of the two, he led his teams to more success than Allen did when they were both at the top of their games.

Allen Iverson should be ranked higher on the All-Time SG list and it's not even close.
:applause:
/thread.

I like Ray too (before joining the heat anyways)
but he's not on AI's level. He's also good in his own way, no knock on him.

[I LUV KOBE]

AI arguably top 5.. Ray Allen top 10..

[fsvr54]

People forget how hugely popular Iverson was.

[StateOfMind12]

People forget how hugely popular Iverson was.
Popularity doesn't define how great of a player you are and were though.

I think Ray is a better fit on more teams than Iverson is but I believe Iverson is better in the role of a franchise player. It depends on the circumstance for me on who I would choose but I believe both of these are top 50 players of all-time, top 60 at the very least.

[therammingman]

Hey OP, :facepalm

[LEFT4DEAD]

Popularity doesn't define how great of a player you are and were though.

I think Ray is a better fit on more teams than Iverson is but I believe Iverson is better in the role of a franchise player. It depends on the circumstance for me on who I would choose but I believe both of these are top 50 players of all-time, top 60 at the very least.
You are dumb!!! AI was a role model for one whole generation of young kids because he was unbelievable on the court. This should not be a question at all, and this is coming from the biggest Supersonics' fan. I cant believe how fast have people forgot how great of a player AI in his prime was.

[WillC]

Allen Iverson was the better player and also had the better career.

I like Ray Allen, but I'd take Iverson any day of the week.

[Shepseskaf]

I love Jesus Shuttlesworth, but Iverson is clearly better and deserves to be ranked higher.

I always got the feeling that the two really disliked each other, back from the heated G'Town vs. UConn days.b

[coin24]

Iverson:bowdown: :bowdown:

Anyone that watched both play know its not even close!! You can really tell who has only been watching bball for a few years on here:oldlol:

[Owl]

No, because that team was built around AI. Lots of good defenders who don't want the ball much and a fairly tall pg so AI can defend the pg spot. Apart from a year with Melo (by which time he was the secondary star) he couldn't work with anyone else who wanted the ball.

But then could AI subliate his ego to work with Garnett and Pierce? Given how his NBA career ended one suspects not.

AI was more marketable, probably more talented, and able to score a lot, and get to the line enough that his shooting was okay efficiency wise. There are a few negative intangible there though.

Ray Allen has been a better teammate, easier to coach, is easier to build around. That said he was less able to create shots than I would have thought off the top of my head (his scoring averages are very consistent but no great peak).

They are very different stylistically so context would be a big part of who you'd want. Outside of any context I'd slightly lean Ray because you can see/have seen him contributing on a really good team. I fear the best team you could build around AI would be a wealthy mans version of the '01 Sixers.

Melo is the only comparable talent to KG/Pierce that AI has played with. Not sure his ego got in the way of that working. The guys surrounded around AI werent even on KG/Pierce level. Had they been it would have been nice to see to show fans if he could coexist. Glen Robb? He wasnt even the same Glenn Rob Ray Allen played with. Chris Webber? He wasnt the Sac Kings Webber. Kukoc? Laughable. I cant think of players they put around AI that worked. And AI is not the type to set up guys like Steve Nash. He's a scorer like Kobe only mgmt put pieces around Kobe. AI? Not so much.
There's two seperate points here. I never argued that Iverson had KG, Pierce level teammates. He didn't have title calibre teammates.

But what what I stated was at the end of his NBA career he showed an unwillingness to adapt his game to fit the needs of his team. I'd stand by that.

And as for how how secondary and tertiary (3rd) options fared with him Kukoc, Webber and Robinson aren't the only ones there was Derrick Coleman, Jerry Stackhouse, Joe Smith, Tim Thomas, Larry Hughes, Keith Van Horn and other scorers like Corliss Williamson, Clarence Weatherspoon. None of them succeeded with with Iverson because he needed the ball so darned much. The only exception was Denver and that was him moving onto someone elses turf where he had no option, and he still took more shots than Melo.

As you acknowledge he was not a setup type guy, he was a perimeter scorer who needed a lot of shots which is what I'm alluding to when I say it's easier to get pieces to fit with Ray, and that the best team you could build around AI would be a wealthy man's '01 Sixers. Maybe the Lakers model you allude to could work, but it's rare to get 2 good big men and a combo forward who can all create their own shots to a degree, but aren't greedy for too many shots, 2 of whom are good passers. And Iverson would have to give up shots as Kobe did and Iverson did to a degree upon moving to Denver.

Anyway I don't want to get too deep into this because I don't want to seem like I'm attacking AI because I think they're very close as players like I said in my first post.

[tobethdope]

people exposing themselves as clueless here...:facepalm

iverson was such an unique player, his drive to the rim/layups and his jumpers are right up there with the best we

[$LakerGold]

The thing is, Iverson was a different type of player... he had the speed.
So that's what make it great about him.

Anyways, Iverson led the Sixers to the Finals and Ray Allen couldn't do it himself, as you could see. Just because Iverson didn't win any championship doesn't mean he's a less better player than a player that won a championship. He just landed on a sucky ass team.

So who's better? Iverson, hands down.
Although each players had different specialty. But Iverson was way more better than what Ray Allen was doing.

[Xiao Yao You]

Ray easily. There's a reason he's still around and no one wants AI.

[markymark]

Kids, please.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1955&dat=20010528&id=2WMxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=O6MFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1950,8437347

There isn't a single player today who's willing to do what he did - swallowed his own blood just so the refs won't take him out with the game on the line. Today, you'll get an automatic timeout if you have a small scratch on your arm.

This goes to show the type of player he was, apart from his godly, once-in-a-generation talent.

Ray "KG and Paul pls help me get a ring" Allen? It ain't even close.

[swi7ch]

Prime years - AI
Overall years - Ray

[swi7ch]

Ray easily. There's a reason he's still around and no one wants AI.

It's because Ray is OK with coming off the bench with MIA whereas AI doesn't want to come off the bench. If he did, he would also still be in the NBA today. Any game, AI can still get hot and give you 30+

[Xiao Yao You]

After playing in Turkey he did say last year he would come off the bench now. Even in his prime there were teams that would have wanted nothing to do with him. Every team in the league would want Ray at anytime in his career. AI could give you 30 maybe still but how many shots would he take to do it?

[ripthekik]

Ray easily. There's a reason he's still around and no one wants AI.
This is a totally different comparison. Ray is around because he is more suited as a complimentary star player. He is a great shooter. But even in his prime, I think he is best suited as the number 2 guy in a team.

But if you need a guy to lead your team.. it's AI.

[amfirst]

Allen Iverson. Ray is a good shooter by lets not forget and amazing young AI was going against the big bad Lakers. No way Ray can duplicate that performance in the playoffs.

[oolalaa]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler
6. Sam Jones
7. George Gervin
8. Allen Iverson
9. Hal Greer
10. Reggie Miller
11. Ray allen
12. David Thompson
13. Pete Maravich
14. Bill Sharman
15. Earl Monroe

[Boston C's]

This is a totally different comparison. Ray is around because he is more suited as a complimentary star player. He is a great shooter. But even in his prime, I think he is best suited as the number 2 guy in a team.

But if you need a guy to lead your team.. it's AI.

Ray could def lead a team to a championship if they built the right team around him...never played with a good big man til k.g hell even a decent big man...his bucks teams outside of robinson and cassell werent that great and robinson was like an antoine walker type player who took a lot of shots to get points...and plz anyone knows that in seattle ray was stuck with some horrible teams...how they won 52 games and took the spurs to the brink of elimination in 05 is a miracle in itself and is a testament to how good a superstar ray allen is....iverson is better but lets not act like ray allen was just some joe schmo

[Figlo]

Prime: Iverson
Peak: Iverson
Career: I'll say AI but it's very close IMO

[noob cake]

Ray Allen is a exceptionally good good role player/3rd option. Iverson was a franchise player.

[LakersForlife]

id take A.I. not even close