Dwight Has To Be the Most Underappreciated C in NBA History

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not sure why people think this guy wouldn't be anything special if he played in the 90s. The man is a 3x DPOY, while playing with teammates that couldn't stop my grandmother from driving past them. Look at some of the players he played with in Orlando. Old Grant Hill, 2 years of Steve Francis, old Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, Hedo, and a bunch of one-dimensional turds. Sad how some people let his childish attitude overshadow just how much of a beast this guy is

[RRR3]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.

[CelticBaller]

He would be good in the 90s, but you cant ignore how weak of an era for centers he has been in

[SilkkTheShocker]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.


Exactly. A shame he had to deal with a GM that was mentally retarded.

[Umad101]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.
Dude would get ****ing destroyed playing in the 90's. He's only the top center in the NBA by default. In 90's he wouldn't event be top 5 center or top 10 player

[SilkkTheShocker]

He would be good in the 90s, but you cant ignore how weak of an era for centers he has been in

ITs definitelys a weak era. And he wouldn't on the same tier as Shaq, Hakeem, or D-Rob. But he would be just as good as Mourning and better than Dikembe, Smits, etc.

[StateOfMind12]

You really don't think SVG who is a defensive minded coach has anything to do with why their defense has been so good these years? I hate how one player always gets all the credit for a successful defense because most of the time it is usually because of the coach.

[DatAsh]

Dude would get ****ing destroyed playing in the 90's. He's only the top center in the NBA by default. In 90's he wouldn't event be top 5 center or top 10 player

:no:

1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Ewing
5. Dwight

[Umad101]

:no:

1. Hakeem
2. Robinson
3. Shaq
4. Ewing
5. Dwight
Alonzo?

[AngelEyes]

Dude would get ****ing destroyed playing in the 90's. He's only the top center in the NBA by default. In 90's he wouldn't event be top 5 center or top 10 player

Not being a top 10 player means getting destroyed?

[SilkkTheShocker]

You really don't think SVG who is a defensive minded coach has anything to do with why their defense has been so good these years? I hate how one player always gets all the credit for a successful defense because most of the time it is usually because of the coach.


He deserves part of the success, sure. But who on those Magic team could really play defense? Pietrus is the only one that comes to my head.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Alonzo?


Its a tie imo. Zo could shoot from mid-range and was a better FT shooter. But his teams underachieve a good amount when he was the lead-dog. They should have beat beat the Knicks in 99 and 2000. And they got lucky in 1997 with the suspensions. And this is coming from someone that was way more of a Zo fan than Dwight.

[DatAsh]

Alonzo?
Close, but no

[LamarOdom]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.

Everything u write is shit but I agree with you on this one.

DH12 is the second best player in the league.

[SCdac]

Ehh. Rich man's Kevin Willis. When he went to the Finals dude was 4th on his own team in FGA per game (behind Rashard, Turk, and Alston). Great big man, one of the best shot blockers of all time, although he's the best big man in the league right now by default - there's not elite bigs nowadays. His moves have improved, but his finesse is still lacking (probably always will), he's too predictable for somebody of his talent, and his passing is nothing to write home about (about on par with Amare).

[RRR3]

Everything u write is shit but I agree with you on this one.

DH12 is the second best player in the league.
:coleman:


Ehh. Rich man's Kevin Willis. When he went to the Finals dude was 4th on his own team in FGA per game (behind Rashard, Turk, and Alston). Great big man, one of the best shot blockers of all time, although he's the best big man in the league right now by default - there's not elite bigs nowadays. His moves have improved, but his finesse is still lacking (probably always will), he's too predictable for somebody of his talent, and his passing is nothing to write home about (about on par with Amare).
:coleman:

[noosaman]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.

Dirk does this too and in a much tougher conference

[SilkkTheShocker]

Ehh. Rich man's Kevin Willis. When he went to the Finals dude was 4th on his own team in FGA per game (behind Rashard, Turk, and Alston). Great big man, one of the best shot blockers of all time, although he's the best big man in the league right now by default - there's not elite bigs nowadays. His moves have improved, but his finesse is still lacking (probably always will), he's too predictable for somebody of his talent, and his passing is nothing to write home about (about on par with Amare).


I like Amare a lot but he was only a 1st tier player for few years at best. His defense and rebounding leave a lot to be desired. Dwight's moves in the post moves can be robotic, flat, and predicatable, but he makes u a top defense with just his presence.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dirk does this too and in a much tougher conference


Dirk isn't really that underappreciated anymore. As soon as he won the title, the choker label (which was unfair to begin with) was removed.

[noosaman]

Dirk isn't really that underappreciated anymore. As soon as he won the title, the choker label (which was unfair to begin with) was removed.

He hasn't even made the top Finals MVP performances list despite most basketball insiders regarding it as probably the greatest playoffs run in history.

[tomtucker]

and of course with C, you mean **** right ?

[Ikill]

Dwight has a higher career ts than Shaq Hakeem David Robinson and Patrick Ewing with more dpoys too. I feel Dwight Howard gets underrated because he don`t score a lot of points and his post game is ugly but effective.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He hasn't even made the top Finals MVP performances list despite most basketball insiders regarding it as probably the greatest playoffs run in history.

Not sure why, really. Im a Lebron fan, and even I will admit I didn't think his team was anything special. Solid role players and DPOY candidate center. But Dirk put that team on his back. People were picking Dallas to lose every season almost.

[noosaman]

Not sure why, really. Im a Lebron fan, and even I will admit I didn't think his team was anything special. Solid role players and DPOY candidate center. But Dirk put that team on his back. People were picking Dallas to lose every season almost.

Thank you for the love, brother.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dwight has a higher career ts than Shaq Hakeem David Robinson and Patrick Ewing with more dpoys too. I feel Dwight Howard gets underrated because he don`t score a lot of points and his post game is ugly but effective.


Pretty much. Those players had way more moves in their offensive arsenal. But some act like Dwight would be an average center in the 90s. Are there really people that think guys like Smits and Dikembe were better than Dwight? Great players, but they weren't better. Shaq, D-Rob, Hakeem, and Ewing were the only guys that were definitely better.

[Ikill]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.
I was going to say Kobe and Wade but with their current yeah what you say is right. But yeah prime Kobe Wade Dirk are guys that could get any teams to the playoffs.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Thank you for the love, brother.


All good man :cheers:

Sorry about the Mavs' offseason so far :(

I don't want to see Dirk have to carry vets minimum players to the playoffs this offseason

[RicksPlace]

Dirk does this too and in a much tougher conference


This!!

[Horde of Temujin]

I say he is vastly overrated.

[PickernRoller]

I say he is vastly overrated.

^^This. Only fitting to create a thread and drive an agenda...........people forget what Gasol did to him in 09' :roll: :roll: In such a weak era center wise he looks godly to some. Give Bynum 2 more years injury free and Dwight is history as #1 C in the league. Being a playoff team doesn't necessarily mean you can go over the hump in the post-season - Shaq for most of his career till he got Kobe. Centers are consistent in what they bring to the table barring injury, nothing new. People don't care about regular season right?

[SilkkTheShocker]

^^This. Only fitting to create a thread and drive an agenda..people forget what Gasol did to him in 09' :roll: :roll:

Agenda? wtf are you talking about? And yea, Gasol did a solid job of defending him, for sure. But I would hope a stacked team like the Lakers would have beat a Magic team with Tukoglu and Lewis as the #2 and # options.

[PickernRoller]

Agenda? wtf are you talking about? And yea, Gasol did a solid job of defending him, for sure. But I would hope a stacked team like the Lakers would have beat a Magic team with Tukoglu and Lewis as the #2 and # options.

Well, if you look at the Mavs 11' it was pretty much the exact same scenario...when pieces fit together that "good" it's doesn't matter if the other team has all-star power but is not as cohesive as a group. Same could be said for 04' Piston vs. the Lakers etc.....get that shit out of here. That Magic team as a whole was a solid team and contender. I guess some people need "names" to qualify teams better than others these days...unless it has couple names, nah not worth shit.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Well, if you look at the Mavs 11' it was pretty much the exact same scenario...when pieces fit together that "good" it's doesn't matter if the other team has all-star power but is not as cohesive as a group. Same could be said for 04' Piston vs. the Lakers etc.....get that shit out of here. That Magic team as a whole was a solid team and contender.


Still don't see where the agenda is at. Is it because we have different opinions on how good his supporting actually was?

[PickernRoller]

Still don't see where the agenda is at. Is it because we have different opinions on how good his supporting actually was?

The actual claim that Dwight is unappreciated........he's not. He's who he is, consistent in what he brings, the ceiling is already there for him. Maybe improve on his ft', add some post moves but that's it. He won't go into "another level" He's appreciated for his consistency and that makes him valuable for any team. Moreover when his staple is defending the rim, guarding the PnR....and, unlike Bynum, he's more effective at it. He's no Shaq, he's no Hakeem...in the sense of taking over games like they could or Lebron, Kobe, Durant can. I guess if the mismatch against another team is noticeable him grabbing 20+ rebounds might have that effect but that is too few in the many, less in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

All throughout the season PickernTroller was whining about Bynum and demanding that the Lakers acquire D12. Now, suddenly D12 sucks according to our boy P&R:lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The actual claim that Dwight is unappreciated........he's not. He's who he is, consistent in what he brings, the ceiling is already there for him. Maybe improve on his ft', add some post moves but that's it. He won't go into "another level" He's appreciated for his consistency and that makes him valuable for any team. Moreover when his staple is defending the rim, guarding the PnR....and, unlike Bynum, he's more effective at it. He's no Shaq, he's no Hakeem...in the sense of taking over games like they could or Lebron, Kobe, Durant can. I guess if the mismatch against another team is noticeable him grabbing 20+ rebounds might have that effect but that is too few in the many, less in the playoffs.

ESL, bro?

[Punpun]

Dwight can easily put up a 20-20 every night. He is the sole guy able to do that in the NBA anyways. The guy is as elite as a C can get. Def top 10 C all-time.

[Droid101]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.
Bingo.

[PickernRoller]

All throughout the season PickernTroller was whining about Bynum and demanding that the Lakers acquire D12. Now, suddenly D12 sucks according to our boy P&R:lol

For the next 2 years Dwight is the man. Barring injury, Bynum in 2 years with the proper mindset, all else being equal, his dominance on the offensive end with more experience on the defensive end will surpass any impact D12 can offer. The question is, do the Lakers want to guarantee Final appearances in the next 2 years or have a gamble with a decent contender. Never said he sucked, he's just not a beast in the same sentence as Shaq, Hakeen etc...more like Ben Wallace and Mutombo.

To answer your question, I still prefer Dwight over Bynum. Dwight is there now, Bynum needs to mature yet. It's simple...

[jlauber]

Most unappreciated? By fans posting on ISH?

Here are my top-2:

2. Nate Thurmond. Arguably the greatest one-on-one defensive center in NBA history.

1. Bob McAdoo. Finished 2nd, 1st, and 2nd in the MVP balloting in three straight seasons in the 70's, and put up HUGE regular AND post-seasons in the process. Later on was a key member of the '82 Lakers title run.

[Doctor Rivers]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.

I dunno about that. I can come up with a pretty shitty roster that won't make the playoffs.

[PickernRoller]

I dunno about that. I can come up with a pretty shitty roster that won't make the playoffs.

It's always about how the stars carry teams and not about how the role players complement the star.

[RRR3]

I dunno about that. I can come up with a pretty shitty roster that won't make the playoffs.
I meant actual teams lol. Though I'm not sure anyone could get the Charlotte LOLkittens to the playoffs:lol

[Halcon]

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u54/brannon_05/kobe_dunk-1.jpg

[Nick Young]

beast? D12?:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Nick Young]

Dwight can easily put up a 20-20 every night. He is the sole guy able to do that in the NBA anyways. The guy is as elite as a C can get. Def top 10 C all-time.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[rodman91]

Most overrated more likely.Prime Zo was better than Howard. Don't caught of media coverage.

Howard needs a pick and roll guard/forward to make him look good. He is like stronger Amare without shooting touch. Hedo made him look good in Magic, Nash might made him look good in Lakers once again.

He is a system product at offense.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Forget offense...he's doing what I expected.

His defense is terrible in literally every way...something he has to take responsibility for.

[kNIOKAS]

LA BABy http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/502a70deecad048452000001-400-/dwight-howard-los-angeles-lakers.jpg

[Whoah10115]

I wanna hear someone explain to me the Kevin Willis comparison. Kevin Willis is 7'0, not 6'10. Kevin Willis always (and I mean even more than Tim Duncan) played PF. Kevin Willis wasn't a shot-blocker or any kind of rim protector. He was not an anchor.



Are we just picking a quality player from the 90's, who wasn't a star, and saying that Howard is not much better because the era sucks for centers?


Would Kevin Willis be one of the 5 or 10 or 15 best players in the league today? Either at C or PF? Would he be top 25? Maybe Mourning would be a top 5 player, but I highly doubt it.


You would think we put the best by position into an envelope and then award the best overall. Like RRR3 said, you put Howard into any situation and he makes them a playoff team. But I suppose the 20 games this year are conclusive as far as his quality. Someone told me that his rebounds are down because he's playing with Gasol...as if Anderson wasn't rebounding a lot last year. Whatever, I guess.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Someone told me that his rebounds are down because he's playing with Gasol...as if Anderson wasn't rebounding a lot last year. Whatever, I guess.
Anderson last year averaged a whole board less than Gasol does right now. and it's not just him. Minus Howard, the Magic averaged 28 to LA's 34. LA out-boards opponents by 5 rpg to last year's Magic's 1. It's simple logic that when surrounded by better rebounders Howard will get fewer rebounds.

[FKAri]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.

heehehehehehehehe

[SCdac]

I wanna hear someone explain to me the Kevin Willis comparison. Kevin Willis is 7'0, not 6'10. Kevin Willis always (and I mean even more than Tim Duncan) played PF. Kevin Willis wasn't a shot-blocker or any kind of rim protector. He was not an anchor.

Are we just picking a quality player from the 90's, who wasn't a star, and saying that Howard is not much better because the era sucks for centers?


Would Kevin Willis be one of the 5 or 10 or 15 best players in the league today? Either at C or PF? Would he be top 25? Maybe Mourning would be a top 5 player, but I highly doubt it.


Prime Kevin Willis - who did play both C and PF (that's indisputable) - would be one of the best big men in today's league. :confusedshrug:

In a three year span, for instance, he averaged.

92: 18.3 ppg / 15.5 rpg
93: 17.9 ppg / 12.9 rpg
94: 19.1 ppg / 12.0 rpg

In 94, he lead the Hawks to a 57-25 record.

Keep in mind, Roy freaking Hibbert made the AS game last season.... averaging 12.8 points and 8.8 rebounds a game.

Seriously think about that. Think about the weak crop of big men right now.

Calling Howard a RICH MAN'S Willis is hardly an insult.

[tomtucker]

Yes, Dwight is the Most Underappreciated **** in NBA History..............:cheers:

[Whoah10115]

Anderson last year averaged a whole board less than Gasol does right now. and it's not just him. Minus Howard, the Magic averaged 28 to LA's 34. LA out-boards opponents by 5 rpg to last year's Magic's 1. It's simple logic that when surrounded by better rebounders Howard will get fewer rebounds.


Well let's compare to someone like Alonzo Mourning. Alonzo averaged under 10RPG 3 of his 5 prime years in Miami. His career high was 11RPG. His team was 22nd in rebounding that year. With the exception of his first season (he averaged 10.4), where his team ranked 8th in rebounding, his team has never ranked higher than 10th in the league in rebounding.


Look at Howard. Up until last year's disaster (12th), his crappy rebounding Orlando teams were ranked 12th, 3rd (Finals), 5th, 6th. Gasol averaged 1.3RPG more than Anderson, in 2 more MPG...Howard's reboundings are down 2.8RPG in 1.9 fewer MPG. It sounds less to do with him grabbing rebounds on a bad rebounding team and more to do with him grabbing rebounds on an elite rebounding team, while he's not yet 100% and also acclimating.


The point is that he is underappreciated, just as the less than brilliant OP is trying to stress.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Well let's compare to someone like Alonzo Mourning. Alonzo averaged under 10RPG 3 of his 5 prime years in Miami. His career high was 11RPG. His team was 22nd in rebounding that year. With the exception of his first season (he averaged 10.4), where his team ranked 8th in rebounding, his team has never ranked higher than 10th in the league in rebounding.


Look at Howard. Up until last year's disaster (12th), his crappy rebounding Orlando teams were ranked 12th, 3rd (Finals), 5th, 6th. Gasol averaged 1.3RPG more than Anderson, in 2 more MPG...Howard's reboundings are down 2.8RPG in 1.9 fewer MPG. It sounds less to do with him grabbing rebounds on a bad rebounding team and more to do with him grabbing rebounds on an elite rebounding team, while he's not yet 100% and also acclimating.


The point is that he is underappreciated, just as the less than brilliant OP is trying to stress.
It would be fair to say he's better at rebounding than Mourning (overall they're on a similar level, but that's a different topic). Howard is an excellent rebounder. But on a team with other good rebounders like LA he's not getting 14 rpg like he was able to do some seasons in Orlando. He's going to be doing 11-12 because his teammates are better athletes and play more in the paint as opposed to just being surrounded by 4 jumpshooters. His current team is doing much better on the boards than his old team did while he's rebounding less because they're better at it. Currently #1 in rebounding differential.

[Whoah10115]

Prime Kevin Willis - who did play both C and PF (that's indisputable) - would be one of the best big men in today's league. :confusedshrug:

In a three year span, for instance, he averaged.

92: 18.3 ppg / 15.5 rpg
93: 17.9 ppg / 12.9 rpg
94: 19.1 ppg / 12.0 rpg

In 94, he lead the Hawks to a 57-25 record.

Keep in mind, Roy freaking Hibbert made the AS game last season.... averaging 12.8 points and 8.8 rebounds a game.

Seriously think about that. Think about the weak crop of big men right now.

Calling Howard a RICH MAN'S Willis is hardly an insult.



I asked a very simple question: why is he compared? And then I asked if it had to do with Willis being a very good and player in 90's, who wasn't a star, and the era being weak.


You don't have to explain to me that Willis was very good. I know this. I'm asking why the comparison.


Willis played some center. I never said he didn't. He was never the starting center on any of his teams, until he was in his late 30's and playing some games for Toronto. And barely that. He was the starting PF throughout his Atlanta years, in Miami, etc. He played some in San Antonio as a 40year old. In the 93/94 year that you mentioned, Koncak and Lang were the centers. They played every game. They averaged 42MPG between them. He was a PF and -like I said- he played C less than Duncan did. That's a fact.



Willis was one of the better big men in the 90's and would be so today. There would be fewer guys at the top for him to compete with and more guys he'd be in the midst of. But he's not similar to Howard at all, unless you just don't think Howard is that good. He's taller and but he's not a C. Howard is a center in any era, tho I'm open to hearing why people think otherwise. The year Atlanta were the #1 seed in the East, he averaged a career high...1BPG. He was not a rim protector, nor was he an anchor, nor was he a juggernaut. He would not have near the defensive impact that Howard has.


So, what is the comparison about?

[Whoah10115]

It would be fair to say he's better at rebounding than Mourning (overall they're on a similar level, but that's a different topic). Howard is an excellent rebounder. But on a team with other good rebounders like LA he's not getting 14 rpg like he was able to do some seasons in Orlando. He's going to be doing 11-12 because his teammates are better athletes and play more in the paint as opposed to just being surrounded by 4 jumpshooters. His current team is doing much better on the boards than his old team did while he's rebounding less because they're better at it. Currently #1 in rebounding differential.



So was his rebounding inflated playing on Orlando or is it deflated due to playing on LA? It is not necessarily two sides to the same equation. Think of those teams in Portland and all those guys curbing their stats. Think of Boston. Think of someone like Manu on your Spurs teams. And again, Howard is clearly not 100% and is still new. Maybe his minutes do not go up. Even so, his rebounds are more than likely to. And again, the point is that he is underappreciated as a player. I mean, really...Kevin Willis has nothing to do with Dwight Howard.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I'd say somewhat the opposite.

He has 3 DPOY and was unanimously considered a top 3 player for a long time. There are much better big men who never got that kind of recognition.

[Pacers4ever]

I take prime Alonzo all day before Dwight.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So was his rebounding inflated playing on Orlando or is it deflated due to playing on LA? It is not necessarily two sides to the same equation. Think of those teams in Portland and all those guys curbing their stats. Think of Boston. Think of someone like Manu on your Spurs teams. And again, Howard is clearly not 100% and is still new. Maybe his minutes do not go up. Even so, his rebounds are more than likely to. And again, the point is that he is underappreciated as a player. I mean, really...Kevin Willis has nothing to do with Dwight Howard.
A few posters compared him to Willis, whatever, the general consensus is still that he's the best big man in the NBA. Generally speaking I don't see how he's so undervalued.

Getting back to the boards, rebounding is not the same as scoring when it comes to sharing the load. The Spurs and Cs are trying to find the best offense, to get the most out of their scoring talents. The answer for them is largely about coming up with the right strategy, having guys move a certain way, be in certain spots, etc., trust in unselfish play and see what happens. Rebounding is affected by where guys get placed on offense and defense but (especially for bigs) it mainly comes down to boxing out and then getting the ball. If Pierce sees KG is open for a dunk he passes the ball. But when the ball is coming off the rim and KG has a path to it he shouldn't be thinking about who else could go get it, he needs to just go get it. That's how rebounding is, teammates take boards from each other all the time.

[gyu]

Who isn't under appreciated on the Lakers besides Kobe?

[Whoah10115]

A few posters compared him to Willis, whatever, the general consensus is still that he's the best big man in the NBA. Generally speaking I don't see how he's so undervalued.

Getting back to the boards, rebounding is not the same as scoring when it comes to sharing the load. The Spurs and Cs are trying to find the best offense, to get the most out of their scoring talents. The answer for them is largely about coming up with the right strategy, having guys move a certain way, be in certain spots, etc., trust in unselfish play and see what happens. Rebounding is affected by where guys get placed on offense and defense but (especially for bigs) it mainly comes down to boxing out and then getting the ball. If Pierce sees KG is open for a dunk he passes the ball. But when the ball is coming off the rim and KG has a path to it he shouldn't be thinking about who else could go get it, he needs to just go get it. That's how rebounding is, teammates take boards from each other all the time.



Like you said, rebounding is often down to positioning on offense and defense. And that's not just C or PF. Garnett's rebounding went down a lot on Boston and Boston wasn't as good a rebounding team was the Wolves in 03/04 or 04/05. Garnett led the entire league in rebounding those two years. Kendrick Perkins wasn't taking rebounds from Garnett, nor was he failing to box out. It's often situational.



One person mentioned Kevin Willis in this thread and I was responding to that. But he's not the first person here to compare Kevin Willis. Mourning was never compared to Kevin Willis. Even if someone thinks Mourning is better, how can they think he's that much better?


Howard is the best now because we can all see he's the best now. But there's always a qualifier with that. Howard is one of the best players in the league. The rules aren't even geared towards big men or post play. How is he a top player but not a particularly impressive center? Do people think this player era, as a whole, is down?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Like you said, rebounding is often down to positioning on offense and defense. And that's not just C or PF. Garnett's rebounding went down a lot on Boston and Boston wasn't as good a rebounding team was the Wolves in 03/04 or 04/05. Garnett led the entire league in rebounding those two years. Kendrick Perkins wasn't taking rebounds from Garnett, nor was he failing to box out. It's often situational.
I don't see how Howard's positioning on the floor made much difference in his boards, he's largely in the paint for both Orlando and LA. It has far more to do with the difference in teammates. And so you know, Garnett's drop in rebounding between Minnie and Boston had much to do with his mpg going from 39.4 to 32.8. It would still be lower if the MPG was the same but the difference would be small.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Howard is the best now because we can all see he's the best now. But there's always a qualifier with that. Howard is one of the best players in the league. The rules aren't even geared towards big men or post play. How is he a top player but not a particularly impressive center? Do people think this player era, as a whole, is down?
People think the center position is down. That's why it's off the All-Star ballot.

[Whoah10115]

I don't see how Howard's positioning on the floor made much difference in his boards, he's largely in the paint for both Orlando and LA. It has far more to do with the difference in teammates. And so you know, Garnett's drop in rebounding between Minnie and Boston had much to do with his mpg going from 39.4 to 32.8. It would still be lower if the MPG was the same but the difference would be small.



It's situational. That's what I'm saying. He's grabbing fewer rebounds because he's not been as good so far this year.



The Boston Celtics are an example of stats taking a hit, across the board. The rebounding thing is odd, as they weren't a great rebounding team that year. But even Pierce's rebounds went down, despite him playing SF exclusively. And KG's per36 was also down 1.6RPG. So his rebounds took a huge hit.



People think the center position is down. That's why it's off the All-Star ballot.


There are fewer elite centers. Bynum healthy, Cousins mentally healthy...that would change people's perceptions. Until then, it's fair because it's true. But people also fail to consider how good Gasol is.


People think doesn't mean it's correct. There have never been a lot of great centers at one time. We got spoiled in the 90's. Prior to Hakeem and Ewing, the early 80's had (off the top of my head) Kareem, Moses, Parish, maybe Sikma...Moses and Kareem were the real elite ones and Kareem started a decline after 1981. Howard doesn't have as many great guys to go after, but he also has quality around him every night. Hibbert was an all-star and that makes people laugh. But he's good. Cousins is a headcase but he's still already good. Duncan is 7'0 and plays the way he's always played...as a C.

The worst thing that can happen to Howard is that Bynum doesn't get healthy and that Cousins doesn't take that step to make him an elite player. Bogut has to get healthy and play like he did in Milwaukee. Those guys need to play and be great. When they do, people will start to realize how deep the position actually is.

[MiseryCityTexas]

This thread is pure garbage. Dwight Howard is more overrated than anything else. Dwight got schooled by a career D-Leaguer.

[LoneyROY7]

He's the only player besides LBJ who makes any team (regardless of their roster) a playoff team instantly.

:lol

The Lakers disagree.

[Micku]

I'd say somewhat the opposite.

He has 3 DPOY and was unanimously considered a top 3 player for a long time. There are much better big men who never got that kind of recognition.

Yeah. I think Howard is more overrated and over expose when you say he the most underappreciated, but still a great player. I think he would do well in the 90s and etc, probably still average around the same numbers as he does now. Howard is still the face of the center position post Shaq.

I think there are a lot of under appreciated centers in history. You have guys like Bill Laimbeer, Artis Gilmore, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, and Rony Seikaly.

Even Vlade Divac is a bit under appreciated. Probably would be a top 5 center in the league.

And there centers today that people overlook. Like Al Jefferson. Dude never been an all-star.

[Heavincent]

He's overrated.

[Whoah10115]

Yeah. I think Howard is more overrated and over expose when you say he the most underappreciated, but still a great player. I think he would do well in the 90s and etc, probably still average around the same numbers as he does now. Howard is still the face of the center position post Shaq.

I think there are a lot of under appreciated centers in history. You have guys like Bill Laimbeer, Artis Gilmore, Sam Perkins, Brad Daugherty, and Rony Seikaly.

Even Vlade Divac is a bit under appreciated. Probably would be a top 5 center in the league.

And there centers today that people overlook. Like Al Jefferson. Dude never been an all-star.


He's a PF playing C. And up until last year, his teams have sucked.


Not his fault at all. He's an impact player by stats. He's not gonna change any team. Good teams can use Al Jefferson. Bad teams cannot.

[Rubio2Gasol]

You think the Magic teams sucked?

[SCdac]

I asked a very simple question: why is he compared? And then I asked if it had to do with Willis being a very good and player in 90's, who wasn't a star, and the era being weak.

You don't have to explain to me that Willis was very good. I know this. I'm asking why the comparison.

Willis played some center. I never said he didn't. He was never the starting center on any of his teams, until he was in his late 30's and playing some games for Toronto. And barely that. He was the starting PF throughout his Atlanta years, in Miami, etc. He played some in San Antonio as a 40year old. In the 93/94 year that you mentioned, Koncak and Lang were the centers. They played every game. They averaged 42MPG between them. He was a PF and -like I said- he played C less than Duncan did. That's a fact.

Willis was one of the better big men in the 90's and would be so today. There would be fewer guys at the top for him to compete with and more guys he'd be in the midst of. But he's not similar to Howard at all, unless you just don't think Howard is that good. He's taller and but he's not a C. Howard is a center in any era, tho I'm open to hearing why people think otherwise. The year Atlanta were the #1 seed in the East, he averaged a career high...1BPG. He was not a rim protector, nor was he an anchor, nor was he a juggernaut. He would not have near the defensive impact that Howard has.


So, what is the comparison about?

:facepalm Wow, do I seriously have to explain this to you. Dude, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the similarities AND differences between them. I'm not going to write out an essay for something that should be self-explanatory, but then again I realize not every body grew up watching the NBA (I'm 27 and I've watched the NBA since as long as I could remember pretty much).

Both players played center (Howard more so), both are super athletic, monsters on the glass, operate out of the post and paint, have similar body types, and are both 'iron men'. Both of them were good to great scorers, but never elite scorers. Howard (obviously) is a better defender and shot blocker (hence "rich man"), but that does not nullify the comparison. It's not like I'm comparing Howard to Robert Horry, man. Watch Willis play, it IS similar to Dwight.

NOW you concede Willis was one of the best big men and would be so today... As if that's not obvious... But yeah keep backtracking away from your "Would Willis even be a top-25 PF or C today?" rhetoric. As if merely comparing Howard to anybody not named Shaq or Hakeem is some insult... And just a heads up, positions are not as black and white as you think, especially front court. Howard himself came into the league playing PF, and played PF for 2 seasons.

[chocolatethunder]

Not sure why people think this guy wouldn't be anything special if he played in the 90s. The man is a 3x DPOY, while playing with teammates that couldn't stop my grandmother from driving past them. Look at some of the players he played with in Orlando. Old Grant Hill, 2 years of Steve Francis, old Vince Carter, Rashard Lewis, Hedo, and a bunch of one-dimensional turds. Sad how some people let his childish attitude overshadow just how much of a beast this guy is
This guy is the most overrated player in the league. He's the best center in the most watered down era of centers. He would get abused in the 80s and 90s. He is so awful in the post it's pathetic. If you double team him he has no idea what to do with the ball. It's lame. He's a good rebounder and defender but he is not a go to guy when you need a bucket. Never has been, never will be.

[Whoah10115]

:facepalm Wow, do I seriously have to explain this to you. Dude, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the similarities AND differences between them. I'm not going to write out an essay for something that should be self-explanatory, but then again I realize not every body grew up watching the NBA (I'm 27 and I've watched the NBA since as long as I could remember pretty much).

Both players played center (Howard more so), both are super athletic, monsters on the glass, operate out of the post and paint, have similar body types, and are both 'iron men'. Both of them were good to great scorers, but never elite scorers. Howard (obviously) is a better defender and shot blocker (hence "rich man"), but that does not nullify the comparison. It's not like I'm comparing Howard to Robert Horry, man. Watch Willis play, it IS similar to Dwight.

NOW you concede Willis was one of the best big men and would be so today... As if that's not obvious... But yeah keep backtracking away from your "Would Willis even be a top-25 PF or C today?" rhetoric. As if merely comparing Howard to anybody not named Shaq or Hakeem is some insult... And just a heads up, positions are not as black and white as you think, especially front court. Howard himself came into the league playing PF, and played PF for 2 seasons.



First of all, I said top 25 player, not top 25 center or PF.

Kevin Willis played PF and played C only when the C was on the bench. You can argue it how you want but Kevin Willis was never a C. He was the starting PF and if anything played garbage minutes at the C position (edit: initially wrote PF). There's no arguing that. Howard did play a lot of PF his first two years. He was also a rookie who started the season 18.


I asked you a question, if you're comparing them due to Willis being a very good player and non-star in the 90's, while not thinking much of Howard. That's clearly your answer.


You described almost every single quality big man to play basketball. They were good scorers and great rebounders who operated out of the paint...as opposed to? Willis shot just under .500 in his peak years and is at .487 for his career. Willis could shoot. He shot 190 3pointers in his career. He was also lean as hell and much lighter than Howard, despite being 2inches taller. He played PF, alongside a C, instead of being the almost sole guy in the middle. He never blocked shots. He wasn't an anchor. He was a big man who was good and who you compare Howard to because you don't think Howard is that good. That's your prerogative but your response to me has nothing to do with what I was saying. Their games are not similar...not any more than any big men ever. And you're comparing the two because you don't think Howard is that good. That's all I'm saying. That and you're wrong lol.

[STATUTORY]

glorified alonzo mourning

[LoneyROY7]

glorified alonzo mourning

Poor man's Alonzo Mourning.

[Artillery]

Dwight Howard timeline:

-Becomes a star almost instantly.

-Orlando fan gets worried that he will eventually want to leave like Shaq and everyone else.

-D-Ho tells Orlando that he's different and that his love for God and the city will keep him around.

-Continues to improve, the city of Orlando rallies around him because of his promises.

-Steals Shaq's nickname. Tells Orlando it's just a coincidence.

-Stan Van Gundy builds a team around him that fits flawlessly. All his strengths are magnified while his weaknesses are camouflaged.

-Is so anti-clutch offensively that he gets carried to the Finals by Hed:oldlol: Turk:oldlol:glu of all players.

-The horribleness of his Finals squad wasn't easy to instantly spot due to the horribleness of the eventual champions.

-It turns out the only reason they made the Finals was because the Celtics were dealing with injuries.

-The next year, Celtics bend over the Magic.

-D-Ho suddenly starts talking about the allure of the big market.

-Starts his passive-aggressiveness that sours the city of Orlando and ruins the chemistry of a successful team.

-Loses in the first round to the Hawks because he couldn't exploit single coverage by Jas:oldlol:n C:oldlol:llins

-Instead of working to improve his game, he starts really pushing for a trade. Introduces a wishlist that consists of only the Nets.

-Goes to the Magic and asks them to fire Stan Van Gundy, the guy who created the perfect storm around him.

-Denies that he went to the Magic to get Stan Van Gundy fired.

-Stan Van Gundy tells reporters that the Magic told him D-Ho wants him fired.

-Caught in a lie, D-Ho sticks to his story even though it's clearly not true.

-His teammates tired of him, as does his coach, and the Magic begin to suck.

-The Magic tell him they will trade him but not to a team on his wishlist of one.

-Orlando mentions the Lakers as a possibility but he says No because he doesn't want to go down the same path as Shaq even though he stole his nickname.

-D-Ho panics and agrees to stay another year in Orlando.

-A couple days later, wants to undo that decision.

-Turns out to be too late to undo it.

-Suddenly suffers a serious back injury that forces him to miss the rest of the season.

-Sticks to his trade demand while only increasing his wishlist by one or two teams. Still doesn't have Lakers on his wishlist.

-Gets traded to the Lakers for pennies on the dollar.

-Claims that he loves the Lakers and how happy he is.

-Ends up stealing Shaq's nickname and copying his career path.

-Says his back injury is so serious that he can barely walk.

-Magically is ready to play 40 MPG from Day 1 of the regular season.

-Looks perplexed as to how to play basketball when the team isn't constructed to fit his strengths and weaknesses.

-Kobe runs the ship as an alpha dog and D-Ho cowers like a beta.

-Says how much he wished things ended differently with the Magic. Comes close to an apology.

-Magic vs. Lakers gameday.

-The Magic have a scrub team.

-Employ Hack-a-Ho.

-Howard can't shoot free throws or figure out how to defend without a set system around him.

-Magic beat the Lakers, scoring 40 in the final quarter while he repeatedly bricked at the line.

-Howard is so mad he walks off the court without shaking the hands of his ex-teammates.

-Despite having Kobe playing better than he has in years on his team, D-Ho has the Lakers sub-.500.

[STATUTORY]

Dwight Howard timeline:

-Becomes a star almost instantly.

-Orlando fan gets worried that he will eventually want to leave like Shaq and everyone else.

-D-Ho tells Orlando that he's different and that his love for God and the city will keep him around.

-Continues to improve, the city of Orlando rallies around him because of his promises.

-Steals Shaq's nickname. Tells Orlando it's just a coincidence.

-Stan Van Gundy builds a team around him that fits flawlessly. All his strengths are magnified while his weaknesses are camouflaged.

-Is so anti-clutch offensively that he gets carried to the Finals by Hed:oldlol: Turk:oldlol:glu of all players.

-The horribleness of his Finals squad wasn't easy to instantly spot due to the horribleness of the eventual champions.

-It turns out the only reason they made the Finals was because the Celtics were dealing with injuries.

-The next year, Celtics bend over the Magic.

-D-Ho suddenly starts talking about the allure of the big market.

-Starts his passive-aggressiveness that sours the city of Orlando and ruins the chemistry of a successful team.

-Loses in the first round to the Hawks because he couldn't exploit single coverage by Jas:oldlol:n C:oldlol:llins

-Instead of working to improve his game, he starts really pushing for a trade. Introduces a wishlist that consists of only the Nets.

-Goes to the Magic and asks them to fire Stan Van Gundy, the guy who created the perfect storm around him.

-Denies that he went to the Magic to get Stan Van Gundy fired.

-Stan Van Gundy tells reporters that the Magic told him D-Ho wants him fired.

-Caught in a lie, D-Ho sticks to his story even though it's clearly not true.

-His teammates tired of him, as does his coach, and the Magic begin to suck.

-The Magic tell him they will trade him but not to a team on his wishlist of one.

-Orlando mentions the Lakers as a possibility but he says No because he doesn't want to go down the same path as Shaq even though he stole his nickname.

-D-Ho panics and agrees to stay another year in Orlando.

-A couple days later, wants to undo that decision.

-Turns out to be too late to undo it.

-Suddenly suffers a serious back injury that forces him to miss the rest of the season.

-Sticks to his trade demand while only increasing his wishlist by one or two teams. Still doesn't have Lakers on his wishlist.

-Gets traded to the Lakers for pennies on the dollar.

-Claims that he loves the Lakers and how happy he is.

-Ends up stealing Shaq's nickname and copying his career path.

-Says his back injury is so serious that he can barely walk.

-Magically is ready to play 40 MPG from Day 1 of the regular season.

-Looks perplexed as to how to play basketball when the team isn't constructed to fit his strengths and weaknesses.

-Kobe runs the ship as an alpha dog and D-Ho cowers like a beta.

-Says how much he wished things ended differently with the Magic. Comes close to an apology.

-Magic vs. Lakers gameday.

-The Magic have a scrub team.

-Employ Hack-a-Ho.

-Howard can't shoot free throws or figure out how to defend without a set system around him.

-Magic beat the Lakers, scoring 40 in the final quarter while he repeatedly bricked at the line.

-Howard is so mad he walks off the court without shaking the hands of his ex-teammates.

-Despite having Kobe playing better than he has in years on his team, D-Ho has the Lakers sub-.500.


gotta sprinkle in him being corny clown in general throughout

[TheBigVeto]

Every Center who plays for the Lakers will be underappreciated in favor of overrated players like Magic and Kobe.

[bukowski81]

Every Center who plays for the Lakers will be underappreciated in favor of overrated players like Magic and Kobe.

Its not because kobe or magic are overrated, is because Kareems and Shaqs legacy.

[wagexslave]

Dwight Coward

[Clifton]

The man is a 3x DPOY, while playing with teammates that couldn't stop my grandmother from driving past them.
That's not really true. First of all, the Magic were always a good, not great defensive team. And second, no one on the Magic was a terrible defender. Everyone was "okay," with a very good anchor and a great coach. I don't remember Vince, Hedo, Jameer, or Rashard ever being known as bad defensive players, and Pietrus was pretty good. It's true that Rashard was a SF, not a 4, who had little interest in rebounding, but he wasn't needed for that.

Assuming Phil Jackson and Jerry Sloan and Pat Riley and JVG wouldn't come back, I would hire SVG over any coach in the league not named Popovich. Rick Carlisle is also an excellent coach, but he too never gets talked about for some reason. (I might have to take a closer look at whoever's coaching the Knicks, because their spacing is excellent, and their defense is better than it has any right to be. That may just be due to Kidd and Rasheed being on the team, though.)

Dwight's defense is not that great. His defensive rebounding is, and his offense is okay, but his inability to play effectively against the double team and his lack of touch really hurt him. It makes his 20ppg an empty 20 - as opposed to the kind of 20 Duncan gives you, where in addition to dropping 20 he also has 10 hockey-assists to an open 3 to go with them.

But as someone has said here, he is one of two players - Durant is probably a third, but I can imagine a guy like Durant not *automatically* making your team good - who you could put on a team and take it for granted they'll end up in the playoffs and a threat once there. Paul may be a fourth.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I don't remember Vince, Hedo, Jameer, or Rashard ever being known as bad defensive players, and Pietrus was pretty good. It's true that Rashard was a SF, not a 4, who had little interest in rebounding, but he wasn't needed for that.
VC's d was shit.

[Whoah10115]

Dwight's defense is not that great.



Yes it is and it's not up to question. He's the ultimate definition of an anchor. And this sentence is a direct contradiction to your point on him being a team changer. I don't care how bad a position is, if he's only one of 2 guys who can change a team then he's great...and his greatness is down, first and foremost, to his defense.

[Graviton]

Yes it is and it's not up to question. He's the ultimate definition of an anchor. And this sentence is a direct contradiction to your point on him being a team changer. I don't care how bad a position is, if he's only one of 2 guys who can change a team then he's great...and his greatness is down, first and foremost, to his defense.
That great defence is still yet to be seen. Quick guards are still raping the Lakers and the team is giving up crazy amount of points in the paint. Jordan Hill has actually played better defense when he got minutes.

[Whoah10115]

That great defence is still yet to be seen. Quick guards are still raping the Lakers and the team is giving up crazy amount of points in the paint. Jordan Hill has actually played better defense when he got minutes.



Absolutely. But the guy in Orlando had worse defenders on his team and they were a great defense.

06/07 (Brian Hill): #7 in Opponents PPG and #6 in Defensive Rating.
07/08 to 11-12 with SVG: 11th and 6th, 6th and 1st, 4th and 3rd, 4th and 3rd, 7th and 12th.