3-on-3: Jordan, Magic, Bird vs Kobe, LeBron, Durant

[KG215]

Best of seven series games to 21 by 1s and 2s. All players are in their prime/peak, so...


Jordan: late 80s/early 90s
Magic: mid to late 80s
Bird: mid-80s

vs.

Kobe: mid to late 00s
LeBron: late 00s to 2012
Durant: 2011-2012 Durant

Right now I'd go with the Jordan/Bird/Magic team in either 5 or 6. However, in 4-5 years when Durant peaks I think it would be closer. I'd still go with the Legends team but in 6 or 7 instead of 5 or 6.

[The Choken One]

The team with Kobe.

(actually picking them because LeBron, though.)

[L.Kizzle]

The team with three top-7 players all-time

[NumberSix]

Depends on defensive rules.

[DurantFor40]

Magic > LeBron

Bird = Durant

Jordan > Kobe


New school would get booty tickled...

[tpols]

Jordan/Magic/Bird wouldnt be able to check them defensively at all.. Durant would blow by Bird or shoot over him with ease.. and Lebron would easily blow by Magic. While Lebron would be able to check Magic effectivelky and Durant's length would bother Larry's shooting and passing.

[Halcon]

I'd choose any team that has Michael Jordan on it.

[KG215]

The team with Kobe.

(actually picking them because LeBron, though.)

Ok?? While I'd be VERY intrigued by this match-up, I dont see it being all that close. I jut saw a team USA practice pic of Kobe, LeBron, and Durant and it made me think of how they're the Magic, Bird, Jordan of the 2012 Olympic team.

However, you could argue that, even with 2012 LeBron, the Legends team would have the three best players on the court. They'd certainly have the two best and, even if you think LeBron is the third best, Bird is fourth. It'd come down to the individual match-ups, though.

Jordan vs. Kobe = advantage Jordan

Magic vs. LeBron = I'd say slight advantage Magic

Bird vs. Durant = advantage Bird

[livinglegend]

Jordan/Magic/Bird wouldnt be able to check them defensively at all.. Durant would blow by Bird or shoot over him with ease.. and Lebron would easily blow by Magic. While Lebron would be able to check Magic effectivelky and Durant's length would bother Larry's shooting and passing.

+1

[KG215]

Depends on defensive rules.

I agree, but which era rules would be most fair? The post-2004 handcheck defensive rules or the more physical defensive ones from the 80s and 90s?

[DaHeezy]

Jordan/Magic/Bird wouldnt be able to check them defensively at all.. Durant would blow by Bird or shoot over him with ease.. and Lebron would easily blow by Magic. While Lebron would be able to check Magic effectivelky and Durant's length would bother Larry's shooting and passing.


I don't see how you'd think Lebron could check Magic effectively. Magic is the best post player out of the 6 and could beat you numerous ways. No way Lebron can single handedly stop the sweeping hook and if the double comes you have the greatest passer who ever lived passing out the post to Jordan or Bird? Forget about it

[IGotACoolStory]

3v3? That's some pick up shit. Call your own fouls, imo.

Give me the team with the best shot makers.

[tpols]

Ok?? While I'd be VERY intrigued by this match-up, I dont see it being all that close. I jut saw a team USA practice pic of Kobe, LeBron, and Durant and it made me think of how they're the Magic, Bird, Jordan of the 2012 Olympic team.

However, you could argue that, even with 2012 LeBron, the Legends team would have the three best players on the court. They'd certainly have the two best and, even if you think LeBron is the third best, Bird is fourth. It'd come down to the individual match-ups, though.

Jordan vs. Kobe = advantage Jordan

Magic vs. LeBron = I'd say slight advantage Magic

Bird vs. Durant = advantage Bird
Id agree that Bird and Magic are better from a 'team' perspective because they knew how to assimilate themselves perfectly into the game and get their teammates involved as well as themselves.

But... anyone's that played 5v5 and 3v3 basketball knows how much easier it is to hide weak man defenders in 5v5 than it is in 3v3. You can get burnt so much worse when playing with less men because there's half the help defense available. And Lebron individually and Durant individually are so much faster and dangerous in a game like this than Magic and Bird are mainly because there's no way to for the latter to stop them offensively.

[DaHeezy]

3v3? That's some pick up shit. Call your own fouls, imo.

Give me the team with the best shot makers.

You got the greatest fadeaway ever, the greatest passer ever with the second greatest hook shot, and the most clutch 3 point shooter ever. I think I know where the best shot makers are.

[NumberSix]

I'm sorry, but LeBron, Jordan and Kobe are the only elite defenders. Both Magic and Bird aren't doing shit on D. Especially if they can't at least use physical defense.

[tpols]

I don't see how you'd think Lebron could check Magic effectively. Magic is the best post player out of the 6 and could beat you numerous ways. No way Lebron can single handedly stop the sweeping hook and if the double comes you have the greatest passer who ever lived passing out the post to Jordan or Bird? Forget about it
Im not saying Lebron would stop Magic.. just that he would be able to stay in front and challenge. prime athletic Lebron would leave Magic's feet in stone every trip.

[Rainwound]

Magic > LeBron

Bird = Durant

Jordan > Kobe


New school would get booty tickled...
Booty tickled?

[DaHeezy]

Im not saying Lebron would stop Magic.. just that he would be able to stay in front and challenge. prime athletic Lebron would leave Magic's feet in stone every trip.

I'll give you that, but given the situation Magic would just force Lebron into a long range situation which I'm sure Lebron would take that bait. In any case put Jordan on him and Magic on Kobe.

[Ketchup]

When did Magic Johnson suddenly become a better individual player than Lebron?

Did he come back and average 30/10/10 or something? Did he come back and play great defense? :oldlol:

[NumberSix]

I'll give you that, but given the situation Magic would just force Lebron into a long range situation which I'm sure Lebron would take that bait. In any case put Jordan on him and Magic on Kobe.
Are you under the impression that Magic was some kind of respectable defender?

[Xiao Yao You]

The old guys. Kobe dooms the young guys.

[DaHeezy]

Are you under the impression that Magic was some kind of respectable defender?

No, but he's not stupid enough to choke up on a guy who's faster than him. He'll obviously allow space to shoot and as most wing players love to do is take open 3's.

[NumberSix]

No, but he's not stupid enough to choke up on a guy who's faster than him. He'll obviously allow space to shoot and as most wing players love to do is take open 3's.
If LeBron wants to go to the rim, there's nothing Magic is gonna do to stop him.

[KG215]

If LeBron wants to go to the rim, there's nothing Magic is gonna do to stop him.

Ok, so what if Jordan defends LeBron and Magic defends Kobe? If Thabo Sefolosha can hold his ground in the post, and impede LeBron's progress to the basket on drives, then so to can prime Michael Jordan but with more consistency.

Then, with Magic on Kobe, he can at least use his size advantage to make up for the discrepancy in lateral quickness. I'm not saying Magic would shut down or even slow down Kobe, but going with Jordan on LeBron and Magic on Kobe might better suit the Legends team.

[no pun intended]

Magic > LeBron

Bird = Durant

Jordan > Kobe


New school would get booty tickled...
Dafuq.

[inclinerator]

lebon kobe durant

[KG215]

Dafuq.

I know, right? If he thinks 23 year old Durant = peak Bird, then he must think Durant is going to be a top 5-7 player all-time. I guess that's not out of the realm of possibility but, :oldlol: at 23 year old Durant = peak Bird.

[NumberSix]

Ok, so what if Jordan defends LeBron and Magic defends Kobe? If Thabo Sefolosha can hold his ground in the post, and impede LeBron's progress to the basket on drives, then so to can prime Michael Jordan but with more consistency.

Then, with Magic on Kobe, he can at least use his size advantage to make up for the discrepancy in lateral quickness. I'm not saying Magic would shut down or even slow down Kobe, but going with Jordan on LeBron and Magic on Kobe might better suit the Legends team.
Like I said, depends on the defensive rules.

[LelBron]

Bird = Durant

http://i.imgur.com/XEUvN.jpg

[General]

Kobe would crush Magic in a 1 on 1 game... but in this match up Durant would be the weakest link and that is why they end up losing.

[Cali Syndicate]

I'm sorry, but LeBron, Jordan and Kobe are the only elite defenders. Both Magic and Bird aren't doing shit on D. Especially if they can't at least use physical defense.

I agree. Bird's a good help/team defender so in a 5 on 5 I would trust his efforts. But help/team defense isn't as impactful in a 3 on 3 setting. Way too much spacing to sag off especially since he'd be guarding Durant.

3 on 3 I'd like to go legends but the 00's could possibly take it. Throw in equal role players in a full court game, I easily role with the legends.

[koolkid09]

3 on 3... I got Kobe, Lebron, and Durant.

It all comes down to Durant and Birds match up. Both are great 3 point shooters. But I have Durant at an advantage because of height and speed.

[inclinerator]

Kobe would crush Magic in a 1 on 1 game... but in this match up Durant would be the weakest link and that is why they end up losing.
how durant jumper is automatic like mj

[raprap]

Kobe, LeBron and Durant.

[Linspired]

ya'll boys talk like ya'll never played 3 on 3 in your life.

elite level 3 on 3 is usually never depend on 1 on 1 play. a team which moves the ball flawlessly will win. you gotta keep cutting, rotating, and create spaces for each other. and communication is more important than on ball defending. and who can do that better than magic, bird, and MJ?

no doubt Magic and his playmaking ability will shine here. bron is a great playmaker, but magic is on a whole newe planet.

[Cali Syndicate]

ya'll boys talk like ya'll never played 3 on 3 in your life.

elite level 3 on 3 is usually never depend on 1 on 1 play. a team which moves the ball flawlessly will win. you gotta keep cutting, rotating, and create spaces for each other. and communication is more important than on ball defending. and who can do that better than magic, bird, and MJ?

no doubt Magic and his playmaking ability will shine here. bron is a great playmaker, but magic is on a whole newe planet.

You mean just like in 5 on 5? You don't say. But obviously taking 4 players off the floor, iso situations become more inevitable as spacing becomes wider. In case you don't know, NBA courts are huge. MJ at least he can handle his own against Kobe. Can't say the same for Magic and Bird.

[DTreats]

Durant is the weak link, dude can't handle the ball on these legends' level. Replace him with Deron Williams and we're in biz.

[General]

how durant jumper is automatic like mj
He's easily the worst player of the six. Assuming Bird would be guarding him, that would be the biggest weakness. Bird is a better shooter, rebounder, and defender.

[Linspired]

You mean just like in 5 on 5. Obviously taking 4 players off the floor, iso situations become more inevitable. In case you don't know, NBA courts are huge. MJ at least he can handle his own against Kobe. Can't say the same for Magic and Bird.

3 on 3 is usually played in the playground or ghetto Y which usually is smaller than normal nba court. and no, nba court isn't huge for these guys.

3 on 3 is totally different than 5 on 5 playing half court. 3 on 3 is more free flowing, more passing involved from my playing experience. if i had to put my money, a better passing & post up team will win.

if it turns out to be a 1 on 1 ISO game, MJ will simply take over the game.

[DKLaker]

I changed my mind several times on this and had to really think about it.......but Kobe, Lebron & Durant win it in 5 to 7 because of athleticism with all else being comparable.

[Linspired]

I changed my mind several times on this and had to really think about it.......but Kobe, Lebron & Durant win it in 5 to 7 because of athleticism with all else being comparable.


this game will be played at an incredibly high level, so most likely no team will have an easy win. but if they play 10 times, i gotta say the legends will beat them 7 out of 10 times. just better ball movement, smarter team, and they have the best scorer in MJ.


passing - legends

shooting - legends by hair

athleticism - young guns

rebounding - wash (throw out NBA stats for this, there is no clear advantage here)

teamwork - legends

stamina - young guns by hair

size - young guns by hair

[fos]

As already mentioned, give me the team with MICHAEL JORDAN.

Secondly, give me the team with 3 playmakers (Durant's passing sucks and Kobe isn't particularly great either).

I like hearing how Durant's length and speed is going to bother Larry Bird. Right. He's Larry ****in' Bird. They didn't have long defenders and good athletes in the 80s and early 90s?

Third, I'd take MJ, Magic, and Bird over Lebron, Kobe, and Durant on the glass.

Of course, this is just like, my opinion, man.

[Cali Syndicate]

3 on 3 is usually played in the playground or ghetto Y which usually is smaller than normal nba court. and no, nba court isn't huge for these guys.

3 on 3 is totally different than 5 on 5 playing half court. 3 on 3 is more free flowing, more passing involved from my playing experience. if i had to put my money, a better passing & post up team will win.

if it turns out to be a 1 on 1 ISO game, MJ will simply take over the game.

Most people play 3 on 3 on courts at parks because most people are not NBA players. 3 on 3 games with NBA players will most likely be played at a facility with regulation sized courts. Three pointers on a playground is like free throws for these guys. Playing on a middle school sized court wouldn't make any sense.

[Vienceslav]

So Kobe and Jordan kill each other after 2 to 3 points so they negate each other.
Lebron wins against anybody his size in a 1 on 1 game so that

[Cali Syndicate]

[QUOTE=Vienceslav]So Kobe and Jordan kill each other after 2 to 3 points so they negate each other.
Lebron wins against anybody his size in a 1 on 1 game so that

[I LUV KOBE]

Its not fair.. You team up Kobe with Lebrick.. Kobe is going to carry that chokers.. With Lebrick in the lineup, Jordan team going to have the advantage but prime Kobe will be too much for them to handle, nobody in that team gonna stop prime Kobe...

Its pretty close though..

[KobesFinger]

Its not fair.. You team up Kobe with Lebrick.. Kobe is going to carry that chokers.. With Lebrick in the lineup, Jordan team going to have the advantage but prime Kobe will be too much for them to handle, nobody in that team gonna stop prime Kobe...

Its pretty close though..

:biggums:

Get real. I'm a Laker fan and I get so annoyed reading your posts, give LeBron his dues. I know for certain Kobe wouldn't be carrying LeBron. No-one would carry anyone in this. Prime Jordan would lock down prime Kobe, as much as I love Kobe's game. Prime MJ is Prime Kobe on steroids.

Durant and Bird are quite similar, though Durant is more athletic and Bird is the better passer. But as it's 3 on 3 and Magic is a better passer than Bird, that advantage isn't as big as it would be in 5 on 5. Durant has the athleticism and length to bother shots and to get his own shot off. That matters just as much in 3 on 3 as it does in 1 on 1 and 5 on 5.

Bron vs Magic is where the game is won or lost I think. Bron is just too athletic for Magic. Magic doesn't have the size advantage he exploited in his playing days, so Bron wins it. LeBron, Durant and Kobe for me.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Imagine Bird guarding the L-Train. He would get murdered. :D

[nbaballllller]

bron, kobe, durant

we r talking about 3 v3 and in this game no one is stopping a prime lebron.

the guy is far too big to be stopped on the perimeter and no one is stopping him from finishing at the rim.

someone has to guard durant- you arent just going to leave him open. so that effectively leaves it 2v2. magic couldnt dream of stopping lebron, jordan is too small, bird is too slow and not strong enough.

prime jordan will win you games by himself and in a game like this one player can light up at any time and the opposing team wont be able to stop them, but in 10 games i would pick the bron, kobe, durant to win more often.

[MaxFly]

It would probably be the Bryant, Lebron, Durant team more often than not... too many match up issues. Some will undoubtedly approach this thinking "I'm going to take the team with Jordan and whomever he's with because it's Jordan, and I won't pick against him regardless of how illogical it may be" (like this (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238746)) and yet others will say "It's 3 of the top 6 players ever, how can they possibly lose to anyone, ever." However, the all time rankings, and playing with Jordan will not help Larry and Magic, who were lackluster man defenders, stop Durant and Lebron.

[Punpun]

Durant stnads otu as the odd guy here.

While, 1v1 MJ and Kobe would arguably be a wash.. While Bird and Lebron would arguably be a wash.. You put Magic against Durant ?

***** please. This isn't even fair.

:biggums:

[nbaballllller]

Durant stnads otu as the odd guy here.

While, 1v1 MJ and Kobe would arguably be a wash.. While Bird and Lebron would arguably be a wash.. You put Magic against Durant ?

***** please. This isn't even fair.

:biggums:

yeah durant aint stopping magic but magic sure as fk aint stopping durant either

and bird v lebron a wash? u seriously think that larry bird could defend lebron james with no shot blocker behind him? In all seriousness?

and whilst lebron isnt shutting larry down, he would have to work harder for his points than lebron wuld

[OmniStrife]

The oldschool team.
They have 2 willing passers while the modern has only one.

[swag2011]

:biggums:

Get real. I'm a Laker fan and I get so annoyed reading your posts, give LeBron his dues. I know for certain Kobe wouldn't be carrying LeBron. No-one would carry anyone in this. Prime Jordan would lock down prime Kobe, as much as I love Kobe's game. Prime MJ is Prime Kobe on steroids.

Durant and Bird are quite similar, though Durant is more athletic and Bird is the better passer. But as it's 3 on 3 and Magic is a better passer than Bird, that advantage isn't as big as it would be in 5 on 5. Durant has the athleticism and length to bother shots and to get his own shot off. That matters just as much in 3 on 3 as it does in 1 on 1 and 5 on 5.

Bron vs Magic is where the game is won or lost I think. Bron is just too athletic for Magic. Magic doesn't have the size advantage he exploited in his playing days, so Bron wins it. LeBron, Durant and Kobe for me.

Now that i don't necessarily agree with. Just b/c MJ is the GOAT, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Kobe's offensive arsenal is 2nd to none, he can get his shot off in so many different ways, on so many different defenders. I do think MJ may get the best of Kobe, but it won't be as easy as people think it would be.

[Dragonyeuw]

Honestly, nostalgia aside, Bird and Magic have no shot at stopping Lebron and Durant whatsoever. On the flipside, Durants length will make it tough for Bird, and Magic will have his hands full with Lebron. Prime Jordan is better than prime Kobe, but in terms of trying to stop each other in a pickup game thats close to a wash.

[Rnbizzle]

Honestly, nostalgia aside, Bird and Magic have no shot at stopping Lebron and Durant whatsoever. On the flipside, Durants length will make it tough for Bird, and Magic will have his hands full with Lebron. Prime Jordan is better than prime Kobe, but in terms of trying to stop each other in a pickup game thats close to a wash.
This guy gets it.

[Punpun]

That's wrong though. Magic would feast on Durant and would be hable to help Larry Bird to protect Lebron if Lebron blows by him.

[KobesFinger]

Now that i don't necessarily agree with. Just b/c MJ is the GOAT, doesn't mean he's the best at everything. Kobe's offensive arsenal is 2nd to none, he can get his shot off in so many different ways, on so many different defenders. I do think MJ may get the best of Kobe, but it won't be as easy as people think it would be.

As far as guards go, I agree. But I still think Jordan wins because of his first step. When I said he is Kobe on steroids, I meant athletically. You can't deny that Jordan was simply more athletic than Kobe in their respective primes. That's why Jordan wins the match up for me.

[Rnbizzle]

That's wrong though. Magic would feast on Durant and would be hable to help Larry Bird to protect Lebron if Lebron blows by him.
Yeah because Durant is definitely the guy you wanted to be helping off of. :facepalm

[Punpun]

Yeah because Durant is definitely the guy you wanted to be helping off of. :facepalm

Durant would not get the ball if Lebron was actually blowing by Bird. Bird would jsut have to switch to Durant and Magic to Lebron.

The "oldschool" trio has way too much complimentarity to be beaten by this trio.

[Rnbizzle]

Durant would not get the ball if Lebron was actually blowing by Bird. Bird would jsut have to switch to Durant and Magic to Lebron.

The "oldschool" trio has way too much complimentarity to be beaten by this trio.
You haven no idea how basketball works do you? Where exactly does this switch happen? Durant will be spotting up off the ball, and Bird will first be trying to guard Lebron, when he fails all of a sudden Bird and Magic will have successfully switched? :facepalm

Kobe is on Jordans level as an iso player.
Bird is a great all around player but Durant is a better scorer, he's longer and more athletic.
Magic is a phenomenal passer/playermaker, but so is Lebron. Whether or not Magic is a little better is pretty irrelevant because Lebron is a MUCH better defender and athlete.

[Punpun]

The switch happens the moment Lebron blows by Bird. Magic who plays the C would take care off Lebron while Bird owuld immediatly go on Durant. It's fullproof.

Next time, before crying "U kno nothing about bball" which doesn't advance the conversation in the least besides making a foul of yourself, think harder. ****ing stan.

[twintowers]

Magic > LeBron

Bird = Durant

Jordan > Kobe


New school would get booty tickled...


:facepalm

[Asukal]

I love how Bird and Magic are totally underestimated here. These guys belong to the top 6 discussion and you seem to think they can't ball against Lebron and Durant. Oh and btw, Jordan will shit on all 3 offensively, and shutdown Kobe while at it. :pimp:

[Ketchup]

I love how Bird and Magic are totally underestimated here. These guys belong to the top 6 discussion and you seem to think they can't ball against Lebron and Durant. Oh and btw, Jordan will shit on all 3 offensively, and shutdown Kobe while at it. :pimp:

:facepalm

How is Magic being underestimated? He is the 2nd worst player on the court in this game.
LOL at shutting down Kobe in a 3 on 3 game with a near infinite amount of space on the offensive side of the court to work with.

[Asukal]

:facepalm

How is Magic being underestimated? He is the 2nd worst player on the court in this game.
LOL at shutting down Kobe in a 3 on 3 game with a near infinite amount of space on the offensive side of the court to work with.

Yeah because Magic is unathletic and can't defend right? Also if Jordan really puts all his effort on defending Kobe, Kobe will be limited offensively(i guess shutdown is too harsh :oldlol: ).

[Boomerang]

Kobe and Durant just needs to set picks for Lebron and watch him go to work.

[bluechox2]

gimme the HOFers

[Ketchup]

gimme the HOFers

All of them are.

[Boomerang]

All of them are.
Kobe is not, Durant is not.

Only one on the right team is Lebron.

[Asukal]

Kobe is not, Durant is not.

Only one on the right team is Lebron.

WTF! Those 3 aren't HOF'ers yet but to say Kobe will not be a HOF'er is just ridiculous. :facepalm

[Juges8932]

Passing: Team 1 (Only Kobe and LBJ are good passers)
Rebounding: About even
Shooting: Team 2
Ball-handling: Team 1
Driving: Team 2
Man-to-man D: Team 2
Help D: Team 1
Athleticism: Team 2

Magic to play floor general while all 3 are great passers who have good court vision. Only Kobe and LBJ are the type of passers who can create like the other 3. Team 2 would be able to spread the floor more with Kobe/Durant outside shooting and allowing LBJ to take Magic off the dribble and to the hole or kick it out. I was initially picking team 1 to win, but think about it now, I'm not real sure. With 3v3 there is a lot of floor space open and team 2 is the better team at driving into the lane. While I think team 1 has better team defense, if they collapsed on LBJ/Kobe driving, it would leave wide open shooters on the wings. While MJ could keep up with Kobe driving, I'm not sure Larry or Magic could stay in-front of Bron/Durant with so much open floor space. Team 1 doesn't have the outside shooting as a team that team 2 does and Durant could stay outside on Larry, so even if Magic/MJ drive and kick it out, I'm not sure that it would be as effective as for team 2 because Durant could stick on Larry on the outside. I was going to pick team 1 since it just seemed like an obvious choice due to the players and individual abilities. MJ and Kobe kind of cancel each other out, but then I'm just not confident in Magic/Larry's ability to stay in-front of LBJ/Durant with so much open floor space. Durant is so long that I'm not sure that Larry would be able to alter Durant's shots that much while LBJ is one of the best finishers ever at the rim.

I think team 1 could get good-enough ball movement going that they could make up for it, but I'm just not sure that it would be consistent enough in say a 7-game series. I guess I have to make a decision, so I will say Team 2 despite my initial leanings towards team 1 due to the overall athletic advantage of team 2 in offensive/defensive scenarios of team 2 with team 1 defending.

[swag2011]

As far as guards go, I agree. But I still think Jordan wins because of his first step. When I said he is Kobe on steroids, I meant athletically. You can't deny that Jordan was simply more athletic than Kobe in their respective primes. That's why Jordan wins the match up for me.

Fair enough. Jordan's size also would be an advantage against Kobe.

[Dragonyeuw]

That's wrong though. Magic would feast on Durant and would be hable to help Larry Bird to protect Lebron if Lebron blows by him.

No it isn't wrong. Hypothetically in this matchup, Magic matches up against Lebron, Bird matches up with Durant.

Jordan and Kobe will take turns burning each other, and this matchup won't be decided by those two. Far more crucial would be the inability of Bird and Magic to defend their matchups. We're getting caught up in Magic and Bird's greatness here; those guys were great team players moreso that one-on-one specialists. There is no chance that Magic can stop Lebron, there is no chance that Bird can stop Durant.

On the flipside, Lebron has the physicality, the athleticism and the defensive prowess to bother Magic, and Durant's length will bother Bird to some degree. I'm not saying that Magic and Bird can't or won't score on those guys, but they have no shot at stopping either Lebron or Durant and there-in lies the difference.

[Dragonyeuw]

I love how Bird and Magic are totally underestimated here. These guys belong to the top 6 discussion

Yes but the problem is you're taking their greatness as team players and being able to elevate the players around them, and translating it into a pick-up game, where one on one skills and the ability to defend your man is paramount.

[rule1223]

kobe and jordan would be a wash, lebron would dust magic every single time, jordan and bird trying to defend the rim against lebron is laughable. Durant would just rise over bird every single time and get any shot he wants on him. On the other end, once again kobe and jordan cancel each other out, durants length would both bird, and be teh most effective on help defense, lebrons athleticism would overwhelm magic.

[Asukal]

Yes but the problem is you're taking their greatness as team players and being able to elevate the players around them, and translating it into a pick-up game, where one on one skills and the ability to defend your man is paramount.

Well these people make it sound like Magic and Bird are terrible unathletic defenders which they aren't. :confusedshrug:

[get these NETS]

Well these people make it sound like Magic and Bird are terrible unathletic defenders which they aren't. :confusedshrug:
neither has the foot speed to stay in front of durant or lebron

all nba 1st team defense guys have trouble guarding them, so bird and magic would have NO CHANCE

in a pickup game....they'd get blown by...


this thread shouldn't be this long


mj,bird, magic are all time greats in the nba, but under these rules...they'd probably lose

I'd actually have bron guarding jordan

[RRR3]

The oldschool team.
They have 2 willing passers while the modern has only one.
Durant is a willing passer, he just sucks at it. Conversley, Kobe is a great passer skill-wise, but not very willing.


As for the OP, IDK. I should probably watch more of Bird, Magic, and MJ before deciding. From what I know, the old guys will have trouble defensively outside of MJ of course. MJ can't guard both LBJ and Kobe, so one of them is going to go off for sure. Durant is the weakest link in this setting IMO, he relies too much on screens and off ball movement for this setting and he is a poor passer, whereas the rest of these guys all are excellent at creating for both themselves AND their teammates.

[Dragonyeuw]

Well these people make it sound like Magic and Bird are terrible unathletic defenders which they aren't. :confusedshrug:

Neither Magic or Bird were great individual defenders, as help/team defenders yes but they certainly weren't lockdown. And on the subject of athleticism, there is no way that Magic physically could keep Lebron from getting to the rim anytime he wanted. There is no way Bird stops Durant from either attacking the rim, or shooting over the top.

[kells333]

3v3? That's some pick up shit. Call your own fouls, imo.

Give me the team with the best shot makers.



The game would never end because jordan and kobe would call foul every play. They both cry to the refs every time they shoot and now they get to call it? Bad idea

[Dragonyeuw]

Durant is the weakest link in this setting IMO, he relies too much on screens and off ball movement for this setting and he is a poor passer, whereas the rest of these guys all are excellent at creating for both themselves AND their teammates.

Durant would need no help whatsoever getting his shot off against Bird. The only hope is that Durant's shot is off that day, because anything Bird does defensively would be inconsequential.

[KG215]

Durant is a willing passer, he just sucks at it. Conversley, Kobe is a great passer skill-wise, but not very willing.


As for the OP, IDK. I should probably watch more of Bird, Magic, and MJ before deciding. From what I know, the old guys will have trouble defensively outside of MJ of course. MJ can't guard both LBJ and Kobe, so one of them is going to go off for sure. Durant is the weakest link in this setting IMO, he relies too much on screens and off ball movement for this setting and he is a poor passer, whereas the rest of these guys all are excellent at creating for both themselves AND their teammates.

But in a 3v3 game you don't need but one screen at a time to get open. The point passes the ball to one wing, goes and sets a down screen for the other, and if the defense tries to switch the screen, then both the player getting the screen and screener can just slip the switch to the hole with no backside help like in a 5v5 game. So, Durant will have no problem getting open. It's not like he's so bad at getting open, that these guys would completely stop him from getting the ball.

I do like how everyone just assumes Bird and Magic are such awful one-on-one defenders that they would never stop LeBron or Durant. I know their on-ball defense wasn't great, but in this setting do you really think they won't figure something out? We're talking about two of the smartest players of all-time, and they're just going to get beat off the dribble over and over again for seven games?

[Dragonyeuw]

We're talking about two of the smartest players of all-time, and they're just going to get beat off the dribble over and over again for seven games?

Yes....smarts aside, I don't see how anyone can argue that Lebron would not continuously blow by Magic time and time again. We're not talking organized, NBA style basketball where your teammates can cover for you to an extent if your man gets past you. Bird isn't going to leave Durant to help out, nor is Jordan going to leave Kobe to help out. You're pretty much on an island in this kind of setting, you really have to pull your own weight defensively. Even if Durant doesn't blow by Bird repeatedly, again what's stopping Durant from shooting over the top every time? Bird isn't going to challenge Durant's shot, and we're talking about a dead-eye 6'10 shooter here.

Now, I'm not saying that Larry wouldn't give Durant buckets right back because Bird has that super high-arching jumpshot and only needed a split second to get it off, but I think Durant's length would give Bird more problems defensively, than anything Bird can do to Durant defensively.

[DaHeezy]

I can't believe how underestimated Magic is in this environment. Why do people think Magic is some sort of pylon on D? The guy was one of the most versatile defenders of all time. Sure he'll get burnt occassionally by Lebron, but who's to say he'll gaurd Lebron?
Jordan takes Lebron, Bird takes Kobe, and Magic takes Durant on D. There's the defensive match-ups that is more evenly distributed.

As for offensively, we're all addressing the fact that the young guns are more athletic, but like I posted before, Magic is the best post player out of the 6. He'll be a nightmare to defend. Not only does he have a decent outside shot, the guy can back you down and has the second best hook shot of all-time. Who's going to stop that? He'll demand a double and when it comes, you're leaving an easy Jordan midrange or cut to the basket, or a wide open 3 for Larry Bird from the greatest passer who ever lived.

[LamarOdom]

Magic > LeBron

Bird = Durant

Jordan > Kobe


New school would get booty tickled...

Talent wise LeBron > Magic
Bird > Durant
Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ (troll)

[KG215]

Talent wise LeBron > Magic
Bird > Durant
Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MJ (troll)

:facepalm

Really, REALLY hope you're not serious.

[LamarOdom]

:facepalm

Really, REALLY hope you're not serious.

Bout what?

[KG215]

Bout what?

The Kobe and Jordan part.

[get these NETS]

Sure he'll get burnt occassionally by Lebron, but who's to say he'll gaurd Lebron?
Jordan takes Lebron, Bird takes Kobe, and Magic takes Durant on D.

bird takes kobe..?

with all due respect, gtfoh

[PickernRoller]

I'd actually have bron guarding jordan

Lol nope...Jordan will school Brons man to man defense at every single possession. Kobe on Jordan, Bron on Magic...Durant on Bird.

[PickernRoller]

I'd actually have bron guarding jordan

Lol nope...Jordan will school Brons man to man defense at every single possession. Bron plays better help defense, that he excels. Kobe on Jordan, Bron on Magic...Durant on Bird.

[tpols]

I can't believe how underestimated Magic is in this environment. Why do people think Magic is some sort of pylon on D? The guy was one of the most versatile defenders of all time. Sure he'll get burnt occassionally by Lebron, but who's to say he'll gaurd Lebron?
Jordan takes Lebron, Bird takes Kobe, and Magic takes Durant on D. There's the defensive match-ups that is more evenly distributed.

As for offensively, we're all addressing the fact that the young guns are more athletic, but like I posted before, Magic is the best post player out of the 6. He'll be a nightmare to defend. Not only does he have a decent outside shot, the guy can back you down and has the second best hook shot of all-time. Who's going to stop that? He'll demand a double and when it comes, you're leaving an easy Jordan midrange or cut to the basket, or a wide open 3 for Larry Bird from the greatest passer who ever lived.
Bird on Kobe?:roll: He would get wrecked. Were talking the second best perimeter scorer of ALL TIME going up against a below average man defender on an island. Weve seen Kobe give guys who are put in the game SOLELY to guard him~Bruce Bowen, Ron Artest, Shane Battier, 40 points easily. Kobe is a much, much better 1 on 1 player than he is a 5v5 teammate.. thats his biggest shortcoming as a player in the NBA. Were talking a guy that used to stay after practice in HS and play guys 1 on 1 with his left hand to a 100 consistently. You would absolutely have to put Jordan on Kobe if you dont want him to run a train on this team.

[Dragonyeuw]

I can't believe how underestimated Magic is in this environment. Why do people think Magic is some sort of pylon on D? The guy was one of the most versatile defenders of all time. Sure he'll get burnt occassionally by Lebron, but who's to say he'll gaurd Lebron?
Jordan takes Lebron, Bird takes Kobe, and Magic takes Durant on D. There's the defensive match-ups that is more evenly distributed.

As for offensively, we're all addressing the fact that the young guns are more athletic, but like I posted before, Magic is the best post player out of the 6. He'll be a nightmare to defend. Not only does he have a decent outside shot, the guy can back you down and has the second best hook shot of all-time. Who's going to stop that? He'll demand a double and when it comes, you're leaving an easy Jordan midrange or cut to the basket, or a wide open 3 for Larry Bird from the greatest passer who ever lived.

1. Those matchups aren't any better. So instead of shooting over Bird, Durant will shoot over the top of Magic. One of the most versatile defenders ever, Magic Johnson? First time I've ever seen that phrase uttered anywhere. And Bird on Kobe? You really think that Larry Bird has a snowball's chance in hell of dealing with Kobe Bryant's one on one skills? The things I read on this site astound me.

2. Magic, at 6'8 220 had a physical advantage over just about every defender in the 80's. Do you think he'll be easily and consistently backing down a 6'8, 260 lb Lebron with ease? Magic, in his entire career, was never defended by a player of Lebron's physical prowess.

[scandisk_]

Mannn this is hard.

3on3 I prolly go with the young guns (bron would be the factor here IMO) :mad:

But on a regular 5on5 game, forget it. Dem kids are gonna get schooled :lol

[LA_Showtime]

Jordan-Magic-Bird. Kobe would probably take every shot. :oldlol:

[juju151111]

A lot of people might say I hate Kobe, but his team wins more. J and Durant can't be guarded by Bird and Magic at all. Yes they are great Team defenders but Bird ain't staying with LJ people.

[arifgokcen]

Young team has 3 of the 4 best players in this matchup.Of course this is solely 3vs3.Magic and bird cant compete with lebron and durant.KD has trouble staying in front of quick players however he is one of the better post defenders because of his freakishly long arms and length.So that would cause problems for bird.Lebron would be the best defender magic faced because no other player in his era was able to match up with him.Lebron is bigger faster stronger quicker.Jordan has the obvious edge however lebron-durant is just too much offensively in 3vs3 game.

[avonbarksdale]

team gawdbe

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Lets be real here... Jordan would shut down all 3 players while scoring all his teams points. Advantage: Jordan.

[LamarOdom]

The Kobe and Jordan part.

lol

[9erempiree]

Kobe, Lebron and Durant will win most of the time.

There is no way Bird can cover any of those players.

You can even put Durant on MJ because of Durant's length. We see how Durant can fluster Kobe and MJ never faced defenders with length.

[9erempiree]

1. Those matchups aren't any better. So instead of shooting over Bird, Durant will shoot over the top of Magic. One of the most versatile defenders ever, Magic Johnson? First time I've ever seen that phrase uttered anywhere. And Bird on Kobe? You really think that Larry Bird has a snowball's chance in hell of dealing with Kobe Bryant's one on one skills? The things I read on this site astound me.

2. Magic, at 6'8 220 had a physical advantage over just about every defender in the 80's. Do you think he'll be easily and consistently backing down a 6'8, 260 lb Lebron with ease? Magic, in his entire career, was never defended by a player of Lebron's physical prowess.

Heck you can even switch it up and put Kobe at 215 on Magic.

Lebron on MJ.

[KG215]

lol

You still didn't tell me if you were serious by saying "Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jordan".

[KG215]

Kobe, Lebron and Durant will win most of the time.

There is no way Bird can cover any of those players.

You can even put Durant on MJ because of Durant's length. We see how Durant can fluster Kobe and MJ never faced defenders with length.

Durant was "flustering" old Kobe, not prime Kobe. And, since prime/peak Jordan is better than prime/peak Kobe, I doubt he'd "fluster" him much.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Kobe, Lebron and Durant will win most of the time.

There is no way Bird can cover any of those players.

You can even put Durant on MJ because of Durant's length. We see how Durant can fluster Kobe and MJ never faced defenders with length.

Jordan would blow by and overpower durant at every nanosecond of the game. Cmon be real here.

[amfirst]

3 vs. 3 team with Kobe because u can't double team in this type of game and individually I think they are more skilled. 5 vs. 5 I say magics team his pg skill would be more effective.

I would put.

MJ vs. Kobe
Bird vs. Durant
Magic vs. LeBron

[Kyle_korver]

ok since some of you are just foolish about defense... old school rule or new school .. kobe lebron n durant would destroy magic jordan n bird.. imagine lebron with the ability to handcheck like jordan use to.. on strength alone he was lock down anyone.. durant cant be stop by great defender .. so why would magic or bird stop him..lebron jumpshot is >> magics n his playmaking is not going far with 2 iso dominating players..i hate how people think the handcheck rule means this era is soft.. it forces you to play defense with your feet n not with your hands.. i cant see even jordan stopping any of them

[bdreason]

Jordan, Magic, and Bird would dominate this matchup. Too much talent and intelligence.

[KG215]

The consensus seems to be the young guys would win because the Jordan/Magic/Bird team would never stop LeBron's team because Magic and Bird are just that bad as one-on-one defenders.

I think some people are really overblowing how bad Bird and Magic were as on-ball defenders, even against someone like prime LeBron and Durant I don't think they'd be as helpless as many of you seem to think.

[mehyaM24]

lebron would cause too many mismatches for JMB.

[LamarOdom]

You still didn't tell me if you were serious by saying "Kobe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jordan".

Lol look again

[KG215]

Lol look again

I missed the white text even with the quote and going back and looking at my post again. :facepalm

[arifgokcen]

The consensus seems to be the young guys would win because the Jordan/Magic/Bird team would never stop LeBron's team because Magic and Bird are just that bad as one-on-one defenders.

I think some people are really overblowing how bad Bird and Magic were as on-ball defenders, even against someone like prime LeBron and Durant I don't think they'd be as helpless as many of you seem to think.

No one is saying they are bad defenders.They are great team defenders however they are not athletic enough to guard players like lebron and durant.Its just impossible without help defense and you cant afford to help in 3vs3 game.

[DatAsh]

ok since some of you are just foolish about defense... old school rule or new school .. kobe lebron n durant would destroy magic jordan n bird.. imagine lebron with the ability to handcheck like jordan use to.. on strength alone he was lock down anyone.. durant cant be stop by great defender .. so why would magic or bird stop him..lebron jumpshot is >> magics n his playmaking is not going far with 2 iso dominating players..i hate how people think the handcheck rule means this era is soft.. it forces you to play defense with your feet n not with your hands.. i cant see even jordan stopping any of them


This guy is 13-18 years old.

[KG215]

No one is saying they are bad defenders.They are great team defenders however they are not athletic enough to guard players like lebron and durant.Its just impossible without help defense and you cant afford to help in 3vs3 game.

That's exactly what people are essentially saying. Posters are more-or-less saying LeBron and Durant would blow by and score on Magic and Bird every time and anytime they wanted, and that's simply not true. I know how 3-on-3 basketball works. I know there's almost no help defense, and having players who can get the ball on the wing and take their man off the bounce is arguably the biggest weapon in a 3v3 game, but I don't think LeBron and Durant would get to the hole anytime and every time they tried; Magic and Bird aren't that bad as on-ball defenders, at least not as bad as some people are insinuating.

[CAstill]

That's exactly what people are essentially saying. Posters are more-or-less saying LeBron and Durant would blow by and score on Magic and Bird every time and anytime they wanted, and that's simply not true. I know how 3-on-3 basketball works. I know there's almost no help defense, and having players who can get the ball on the wing and take their man off the bounce is arguably the biggest weapon in a 3v3 game, but I don't think LeBron and Durant would get to the hole anytime and every time they tried; Magic and Bird aren't that bad as on-ball defenders, at least not as bad as some people are insinuating.


No one is saying that they're that bad on D but that Lebron
and Durant are that good on O. Lebron is the reason most
people are saying this. In comparison to Lebron's driving ability
Bird and Magic may become marginalized in the grand scheme
of D.

[I<3NBA]

Legends win because Kochuck gonna do what he does, but with MJ on him, those shots would be bricking all day. Lebron and Durant would get pissed off at Kobe ball hogging and give up on defense. They'd probably try to freeze Kobe out of the offense and keep the ball to themselves :lol

[9erempiree]

Legends win because Kochuck gonna do what he does, but with MJ on him, those shots would be bricking all day. Lebron and Durant would get pissed off at Kobe ball hogging and give up on defense. They'd probably try to freeze Kobe out of the offense and keep the ball to themselves :lol

I disagree because we are talking about Kobe in his prime, which you were probably too young to remember.

Kobe was straight up an alpha male and there will be no way he takes a backseat to Lebron or Durant.

Lebron and Durant are still just as passive. They listen to Kobe now...what makes you think they won't listen to prime freaking Kobe.

They would be in awe because he scored 81 points.

[Jax]

Hand checking illegal? Lebron bulldozing with Kobe and Durant in the outside, that's hard to decide.
3 on 3, that's basically 1 on 1 all the time, and nobody stopping Lebron, but then who's guarding Magic and Jordan, expecting Lebron gonna guard Bird? Damn...I pick the old timers.

[DatAsh]

I disagree because we are talking about Kobe in his prime, which you were probably too young to remember.

Kobe was straight up an alpha male and there will be no way he takes a backseat to Lebron or Durant.

Lebron and Durant are still just as passive. They listen to Kobe now...what makes you think they won't listen to prime freaking Kobe.

They would be in awe because he scored 81 points.

You said in another thread that you were a Kobe hater, yet every post I see of yours has something to do with how great Kobe Bryant is. :confusedshrug:

[andgar923]

Have some of you even played 3 on 3 before?

The game is different then a full court 5 on 5 game or a one on one matchup. It isn't as individual based like some of you make it out to be, it becomes more compact in a sense. One's natural instinct is to believe that individual match ups will prevail, and to some degree this is true, but not the norm. I think both teams have a hard time guarding one another on individual match ups, but it comes down to team execution. I'm far more confident that the old school wins because they can execute better.

I can easily see Magic standing at the top of the key as Bird and MJ take turns coming off screens and curls. I don't see the same being the case for the younger team because aside from Bron, it isn't in their nature to play that way on a consistent basis.

While the young guns would try to beat them one on one, the Old timers would be running game on them with pick and rolls, give and gos and tons of mid range pop shots.

And...

Mj can guard whoever gets hot more effectively then anybody from the young squad can.

[pauk]

Magic > LeBron

Bird = Durant




Magic vs. LeBron = I'd say slight advantage Magic



Ok... now i have heard everything.... :facepalm

Magic had a more accomplished career, but to think that he also was a more talented individual overall player than Lebron despite all the facts showing you the complete opposite is extremly hallucinatory...

1on1:
Lebron would be able to defend Magic MUCH better than he could defend him...
Lebron would be able to score on Magic MUCH better than Magic could on Lebron...
Magic would get absolutely humiliated....

In game:
The only noticable advantage Magic has is his passing in which Lebron is not a sucker at himself anyways being the best passer in NBA history at that size (only behind Magic) and best player with pointguard skills at that size (only behind Magic).... then Lebron is a MUCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (notice the many letters) better scorer and MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHH (notice the even more letters) better defender....

[Soundwave]

I dunno about this.

On one, Jordan/Magic/Bird have higher basketball I.Q., better shooting, better post game, and more desire.

LeBron/Durant/Kobe are better defensively as a group though and more athletic.

Jordan evens the scales quite a bit, but Magic and Bird have some deficiencies defensively and athletically.

That said ... if Bird's shot is on, Team Jordan wins.

[eliteballer]

I dunno about this.

On one, Jordan/Magic/Bird have higher basketball I.Q., better shooting, better post game, and more desire.

LeBron/Durant/Kobe are better defensively as a group though and more athletic.

Jordan evens the scales quite a bit, but Magic and Bird have some deficiencies defensively and athletically.

That said ... if Bird's shot is on, Team Jordan wins.

What stupidity on some of your points, the young ones have 2 of the 3 best shooters and MORE DESIRE? Really? What a uselessly arbitrary point:roll:

[BuffaloBill]

As long as they pass the ball to Kobe, his team will win.

[Linspired]

if bron or durant dunks on the old timers, those tough bastards will start fouling hard. things could get really ugly because 3 on 3 don't have refs. these guys are so competitive that they will not let anybody get any easy shots. this will be a backyard street brawl. old schoolers may lack overall athleticism, but they will let you know you are in for a war.

[KG215]

Ok... now i have heard everything.... :facepalm

Magic had a more accomplished career, but to think that he also was a more talented individual overall player than Lebron despite all the facts showing you the complete opposite is extremly hallucinatory...

1on1:
Lebron would be able to defend Magic MUCH better than he could defend him...
Lebron would be able to score on Magic MUCH better than Magic could on Lebron...
Magic would get absolutely humiliated....

In game:
The only noticable advantage Magic has is his passing in which Lebron is not a sucker at himself anyways being the best passer in NBA history at that size (only behind Magic) and best player with pointguard skills at that size (only behind Magic).... then Lebron is a MUCCHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH (notice the many letters) better scorer and MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCHHHHHHH (notice the even more letters) better defender....

You're not even worth arguing with because you've done nothing but prove you're the biggest LeBron dickrider on ISH. I said slight advantage Magic and I was hesitant in doing so. It's not like I said Magic was hands down better.

We get it. You think LeBron is the greatest and anyone saying another perimeter player not named Jordan is better is blasphemous.

[Jax]

It's about defense...
Lebron and MJ could guard anyone of the opposing team, Durant can't defend for shit, Kobe defends awesomely with hand checking but would stand no chance against Magic. Bird can't defend also but It's a lot smarter than most of these dudes. Magic wasn't the greatest defender, but he'd survive.
This is like Rocky vs Ali, nobody's gonna win the argument.:cheers:
I'd put Kobe on Jordan, Durant on Magic and Lebron on Bird because of size but he should be on Magic.
Old timers would ruin Durant anyway you put it. weak link ruins matchups.

[KG215]

Durant would be the weak link now, and maybe even in the future, but that may not be the case 5-7 years from now. We haven't even seen prime/peak Durant, yet. I just used him because he just fit this scenario better than anyone else in my opinion. I needed/wanted another SF to match-up with Bird.

So, while we know what the other five players were like at their peak and in their prime, I was picturing Durant 3-5 years from in his prime and/or at his peak. I know you can't really do that because it's projecting at his peak he'll be comparable to five of the greatest players ever, but that was more my mindset.

[NastyCrossover1]

Durant is the weak link, dude can't handle the ball on these legends' level. Replace him with Deron Williams and we're in biz.

Really tho? You can't be serious.

I think Durant has one of the best handles in the game!

[get these NETS]

It's about defense...
Lebron and MJ could guard anyone of the opposing team, Durant can't defend for shit, Kobe defends awesomely with hand checking but would stand no chance against Magic. Bird can't defend also but It's a lot smarter than most of these dudes. Magic wasn't the greatest defender, but he'd survive.
This is like Rocky vs Ali, nobody's gonna win the argument.:cheers:
I'd put Kobe on Jordan, Durant on Magic and Lebron on Bird because of size but he should be on Magic.
Old timers would ruin Durant anyway you put it. weak link ruins matchups.


that's racist bullshit

lot smarter than kobe or lebron?, why? because he was the last great white
player?

you're taking away or downplaying kobe and lebron's basketball iq becaus they are/were great athletes....and your raising bird's because he wasn't.

that's media fed bullshit


Bron, playing from the 3 position exhibits a lot of the vision and court awareness that Bird does

kobe is as much of a student of the game as anybody ever..despite his tendency to chuck it..he is as smart as any player ever

go ahead with that bullshit