[VIDEO/Discussion] Jerry West... is he a better all around player than Kobe?

[CavaliersFTW]

http://youtu.be/d8rjREaql2U

The more footage I find the better his moves and defense seems to get

:bowdown:

[Punpun]

>Defense
>In the 70


About that Cavaliers..

[CavaliersFTW]

>Defense
>In the 70


About that Cavaliers..

Stern's Hero-ballers getting sent to the line every time a defender bats an eyelash/sneezes/coughs/farts or simply imagines contact with them... about that Punpun...

[Punpun]

At least players have to play REAL DEFENSE instead of dropping the pretense of defense altogether and just elbow people in the face.

[CavaliersFTW]

At least players have to play REAL DEFENSE instead of dropping the pretense of defense altogether and just elbow people in the face.
I'm not saying one way is better than the other I'm just providing a counterpoint that needs to be taken into consideration, since you provided the initial point that also needs to be taken into consideration.

West's moves on the court are way better than I expected and they're getting better the more footage I uncover, moves like he has are exactly what Sternball caters too, so I feel like any defensive lapses from his era could more or less be rendered moot based on how easily ticy-tac fouls are called on the players of his caliber today.

[1987_Lakers]

He couldn't dribble with his left hand and I severely doubt he had the post moves of Kobe.

[jlip]

This is how you do a highlight video. Great job at showing all aspects of West's game especially the defense. 5:12-6:53 was my favorite part.

[CavaliersFTW]

He couldn't dribble with his left hand and I severely doubt he had the post moves of Kobe.
He dribbles with his left hand many times in the video, sure he favors his right, but let's not pretend he's inept with his left hand - I think this is a non-issue, he's capable of getting where he wants to go and putting the ball in the hoop. I also don't think his post moves would be on par with Kobe's, but his mid-range game seems better.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"Kobe is the greatest Laker ever"

-Jerry West

[1987_Lakers]

He dribbles with his left hand many times in the video, sure he favors his right, but let's not pretend he's inept with his left hand - I think this is a non-issue, he's capable of getting where he wants to go and putting the ball in the hoop. I also don't think his post moves would be on par with Kobe's, but his mid-range game seems better.

I think it would be a big issue in today's NBA. A guard needs to have great ball handling skills to be an elite scorer in today's league and West wasn't a great ball handler.

[CavaliersFTW]

"Kobe is the greatest Laker ever"

-Jerry West
How humble is JerrHovah :bowdown:

[BoutPractice]

He lacks Kobe's individual and team accomplishments, but he is better than everyone besides Jordan and Kobe at his position.

[jlip]

He couldn't dribble with his left hand and I severely doubt he had the post moves of Kobe.

The Logo? (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_RSvosCqCQZ4/SSEkieE0DqI/AAAAAAAACWE/H5iDREviYk4/s400/nba_logo1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.blazeoflove.com/2008/09/nba-logos.html&h=300&w=400&sz=28&tbnid=NghqLC6rV00kwM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dnba%2Blogo%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=nba+logo&usg=__ro4LvhO1Uf1f-F06qLUr0HPA3qE=&docid=r8JVgiPptuduTM&sa=X&ei=ESj_T5mzOoye8QTStvTKBg&ved=0CGMQ9QEwAQ&dur=488)

[Deuce Bigalow]

How humble is JerrHovah :bowdown:
It's not about being humble. Kobe would destroy West.
A 1 on 1 game to 21, I would say Kobe wins 21-7

[CavaliersFTW]

I think it would be a big issue in today's NBA. A guard needs to have great ball handling skills to be an elite scorer in today's league and West wasn't a great ball handler.
Jerry West actually dribbles, and he is doing a great job at dribbling. The NBA today allows carrying, and it added a new dimension to the term "ball handler" but it simply wasn't allowed in his time and it's actually the likeliest reason he and other players of that era favor one hand so much because the result of tighter rules means you just can't make the same kinds of corrections with sides of your hands like you can today - there's no safety net. Here's an important point to note that someone posted on a different forum.


Few players in the Sixties "had" [ utilized ] a "left hand" [ i.e., a well-developed 'off-hand' dribble ], though not necessarily because they lacked ball-handling skill. Back then, with a faster tempo game, players tended to stay with their more dominant hand in an attempt to curtail TOs, which could lead to easy transition points for the opposition ...

At that time, as now, coaches hated turnovers, but then players actually heeded coaches to a greater degree. Coaches, in general, also detested "showboating" in those days, so fancy dribbling exhibitions [ outside of Boston and Harlem, anyway ] were frequently met with disdain [ Similarly, there was a lot less dunking in the Sixties, too, not so much because the players then could not dunk -- the centers and forwards certainly could, as could many of the bigger guards, no doubt -- but the emphasis was elsewhere because most of the coaches of that era simply were not fans of that ****. ] ...

More importantly, the standard of what was considered legal ball handling was much different forty or, especially, fifty years ago than it is now. If your hand was not clearly "on top of the ball" when you dribbled, Sixties referees blew their whistles for a carry call. Even the typical modern crossover dribble today would almost certainly result in a 'discontinuous dribble' call in 1965; a Rose, Paul, or Iverson in the Sixties would have ten TOs per game [ or they would dribble more conservatively to avoid such a disastrous fate ] ...

If West were playing today, he would ballhandle 'differently' [ meaning with more modern flair ], just like he would probably 'increase' his shooting range from 19-21 feet out to 23-25 feet [ to take some advantage of the 3-point evolution of the game ]. I have no doubt he could easily make both those adjustments and be a great player in 2012, just as he was in 1967 ...

[CavaliersFTW]

It's not about being humble. Kobe would destroy West.
A 1 on 1 game to 21, I would say Kobe wins 21-7
Well no shit, West is 74 years old that's not a fair contest at all :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well no shit, West is 74 years old that's not a fair contest at all :lol
In their primes.

[inclinerator]

much better footage than the first one

[blacknapalm]

he has a terrible habit of dribbling with his right hand when he goes to his left and vice versa. he'd get picked in today's game relentlessly if he tried pulling that

[Poetry]

he has a terrible habit of dribbling with his right hand when he goes to his left and vice versa. he'd get picked in today's game relentlessly if he tried pulling that

He would adjust after a few weeks. His ability to learn would be intact.

[blacknapalm]

He would adjust after a few weeks. His ability to learn would be intact.

would he? i can only go by what i see, not do projections. i'm sure the evolution of the game would only help him...but the fact remains: he's way too right hand dominant

[CavaliersFTW]

In their primes.
one on one sure Kobe would probably win, he's probably one of the best one on one players of all time BUT I'm talking about who's a better all-around player. West looks like he plays a more complete game, and he's also a more efficient scorer

[CavaliersFTW]

would he? i can only go by what i see, not do projections. i'm sure the evolution of the game would only help him...but the fact remains: he's way too right hand dominant
lol, everytime someone applies pressure to his right he simply switches too his left hand in the video... as if it's no big deal. As if it would be no big deal if someone did the same today. Watch it again, he's only reacting accordingly - he keeps the ball protected, it's always out of reach, that's the point of handling a ball and he does that well. And should we assume Kareem couldn't dunk based on only watching footage of him in college when the rules outlawed dunking? My point being, the guy doesn't have the same dribbling rules as today. With looser rules on dribbling he'd be taking advantage of new moves, and the safety net allotted by making more corrections on the side of the ball. And he'd be mimicing what he sees he's a human not a programmed computer, the dude clearly has elite balance and fast hands - why not talk about the other parts of his game that aren't being restricted by today's tweaked rules?

[blacknapalm]

lol, everytime someone applies pressure to his right he simply switches too his left hand in the video... as if it's no big deal. As if it would be no big deal if someone did the same today. Watch it again, he's only reacting accordingly - he keeps the ball protected, it's always out of reach, that's the point of handling a ball and he does that well.

you're not supposed to go to your left and dribble with your right hand...like ever. you don't wait for pressure. players today would capitalize on that easily. it's certainly not protected. his off hand is by his side a couple times in the video and the ball is completely exposed.

he was a complete player, but let's not act like he was flawless.

[SuperPippen]

He couldn't dribble with his left hand and I severely doubt he had the post moves of Kobe.

:facepalm at anyone who insists on regurgitating these lame myths. West could definitely dribble with his left hand. Sure, he was better with his right, but so are many players, even today. It seems to me, in fact, that even today, players tend to finish with their right hands a lot more than their left, even when going to the left side of the basket.

[SuperPippen]

It's not about being humble. Kobe would destroy West.
A 1 on 1 game to 21, I would say Kobe wins 21-7

1 on 1? Kobe would certainly win. West would be too good and too smart to be blown out 21 to 7, but yea, Kobe would win.


In a team game, though? West's overall impact could rival Kobe's, even today.

[CavaliersFTW]

you're not supposed to go to your left and dribble with your right hand...like ever. you don't wait for pressure. players today would capitalize on that easily. it's certainly not protected. his off hand is by his side a couple times in the video and the ball is completely exposed.

he was a complete player, but let's not act like he was flawless.
lol, I'm not acting like he's flawless I'm acting like he's elite and able to maintain being elite in today's game with nothing but a simple adjustment. Your acting like he's some sort of pre-programmed machine and he'd "have trouble". :facepalm Nobody with that game in the video I posted would have any trouble in today's league, they'd dominate. In fact, they do - his ability to finish at the rim resembles Kobe/Westbrook/Rose/Wade/Parker etc. And his shooting resembles Ray f*cking Allen. And I watched the video again, and he actually dribbles with his left hand quite a lot in the video, and only goes left with his right hand a few times. It isn't the end of the world, the guy would easily adjust within a few weeks just as someone else already mentioned and the rest of his game would certainly translate into elite top tier dominance. If you can't see that based on the footage I don't know what to tell you, that isn't ordinary hoopmixtape talent, that's quite visibly all-time NBA talent.

[Poetry]

i'm sure the evolution of the game would only help him...but the fact remains: he's way too right hand dominant

Drop West in this era and you would pull the reins off, opening his skill set even further and making him an even better player.

West appears quite good at using his body to create a little space and he does use his left on occasion in this footage.

More importantly, based on this footage, even being right hand dominant, he seems to have something similar to a right handed stutter jab that would be effective in any era. Check out 1:22 and 1:30.

Stockton used that moved to great effect.

[Poetry]

3:33 to 3:40 is a great example of two moves that show what he can do going right or left.

[CavaliersFTW]

3:33 to 3:40 is a great example of two moves that show what he can do going right or left.
Textbook pick and roll to Imhoff, - West is so versatile on offense I'm only like half way through my archives and I'm tellin you the more footage I find of this guy the more complete and varied his game appears. I'm starting to wonder what can't this guy do.

[Owl]

At least players have to play REAL DEFENSE instead of dropping the pretense of defense altogether and just elbow people in the face.
Regarding this.
Jerry West took a lot of knocks and got his nose broken A LOT (just checked NBA.com which says at least 9 times). Now Kobe has been impressively tough at playing through injuries (Occasionally, I would argue, against the long term interest of his team and perhaps himself). Still Jerry West might be the toughest player in the history of the game. He's certainly up there as far as playing through and coming back from injuries.

I haven't watched this mix yet (crummy slow connection) but saying players couldn't use their weak hands back then is misleading. The conventions back then was to pivot back to protect the ball when changing direction rather than crossing over. I don't know how much it's how reffing has changed, or coaching or whatever but I rather suspect Jerry West would have been fine in any era.

[1987_Lakers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMp7c2bcfkk

1:57 mark

:oldlol:

[Poetry]

Textbook pick and roll to Imhoff, - West is so versatile on offense I'm only like half way through my archives and I'm tellin you the more footage I find of this guy the more complete and varied his game appears. I wanna know what can't this guy do.

The footage is pretty amazing man. You're doing great work.

He can get by on quickness and fluidity or create space with his shoulder and protect the ball to get to the rim.

Notice how far the ball is from the defender at 3:34 (Rondo-like)...

http://i49.tinypic.com/2hcosv7.jpg

...and 3:38 notice how he protects the ball, it's practically hidden away (you can't steal what you can't see).

http://i49.tinypic.com/14smmhl.png

[blacknapalm]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMp7c2bcfkk

1:57 mark

:oldlol:

man, exactly what i said :lol

and that was a game 7. there's nothing about rule restrictions that force him to do that.

clyde frazier steals it at 4:29

[SuperPippen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMp7c2bcfkk

1:57 mark

:oldlol:

3: 57 mark.

Quit being so narrow minded.

[1987_Lakers]

3: 57 mark.

Quit being so narrow minded.

4:25 mark

:oldlol:

[DKLaker]

He couldn't dribble with his left hand and I severely doubt he had the post moves of Kobe.


THIS!!!!!

I was a HUGE Jerry West fan......but to even compare is idiotic!!!
Unlike anyone else on ISH, I was at every home Lakers game from 1960 on through the end of his career.
As a scorer you want to look at Elgin anyways.

[Hank]

Jordan
Wade
West










































kobe

[Vienceslav]

Jordan
Wade
West










































kobe
I know,but West might be better than Jordan though , i don

[pauk]

I would say so, the stats dont lie in this case.

[SuperPippen]

4:25 mark

:oldlol:

What does this prove? West had the ball stolen by Frazier, one of the greatest defensive guards ever, when he had the ball in his right hand.

As the 3:57 mark proves, West could easily go to his left hand. Him getting the ball stolen does nothing to negate that.

[General]

I would say so, the stats dont lie in this case.
Kobe, West > Lebron

[b1imtf]

>Defense
>In the 70


About that Cavaliers..
The thread ended quickly

[DatAsh]

Scoring - Kobe Bryant
Superior outside shot, much better ball handling skills allow which allow him to penetrate better, and better footwork and post game. West probably has the better close-midrange shot and certainly had better shot selection, but no doubt Kobe is the better scorer.


Defense - Jerry West
This guy's defense is drastically underrated on this site. He definitely has a case for top 5 perimeter defender of all time. Their respective defensive peaks are probably close, but Kobe was only at that level for about 4 years; Jerry maintained that level for the majority of his career.


Passing/Playmaking - Jerry West
This one is easy. One of the first true combo guards that truly looked to get the whole team involved on a night in, night out basis. West's edge here is larger than the edge Kobe has over West in scoring IMO. Jerry West averaged a 35.1 Asst% in the 71-72 season :eek:


Rebounding - Kobe Bryant
This one was really easy for me as well. Kobe averaged as many rebounds in the 2000s as west did in the 60s-70s. Kobe's TRB% is much large as well and almost twice as large in some instances.



Intangibles - Kobe Bryant?
Only reason I'm hesitant with this one is because I haven't really read much about West's leadership/intangibles. Reason I went with Kobe is that I have read/heard enough about him to know that he really is a true leader.


Overall- Kobe

[Jacks3]

Jordan
Kobe
West































D-Whistle

[jlauber]

>Defense
>In the 70


About that Cavaliers..

These uneducated and unresearched responses really annoy me. West, with near perfect form, had seasons of .419 and .445 shooting.

I watched Jerry Lucas make some 20 straight shots from between the circles in a pre-game shoot-around, and yet he was "only" a career 50% shooter.

Bill Sharman was shooting .932 from the line in the 50's, forcryingoutloud, and struggled to shoot .450 from the field.

Some here may have read my post on Gus Johnson, but for those that did not...he was 6-6, 230 lbs. og brute force, and probably had a vertical the equal of Jordan's (I kid you not.) Not only that, but there is footage of him on YouTube, and he had a skilled mid-range shot. How come that guy wasn't putting up 30-20 seasons in the "unathletic 60's?"

Finally, maybe PunPun can explain this to the rest of us. A PRIME Kareem had a TOTAL of SEVEN 30+ point games against Nate Thurmond (who?) in their 43 H2H starts. His HIGH game was 34 points, and he had SEVEN games BELOW 20 in those 43 games. Not only that, but from the research that I have done, there is a STRONG possibility that Kareem shot less than 45% against Thurmond in those 43 H2H's (perhaps a LOT less.) In his three post-season series against Thurmond, Kareem shot .486, .428, and get this... .405.

Now, let's fast forward to the mid-80's. A 38-39 year old Kareem faced Hakeem in 10 H2H games in the 84-85, and 85-86 seasons. And in those 10 straight games, Kareem had SIX games of 30+, including THREE of 40+ (with a high game of 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes.) Overall, in those ten straight games, Kareem AVERAGED 32 ppg on, get this... .630 shooting. Oh, and BTW, in the same time frame that Kareem hung that 46 point game on Hakeem, he pounded Patrick Ewing with a 40 point game (on 15-22 shooting, and while holding Patrick to 9 points on 3-17 shooting.)

And BTW, Gilmore, a center from the 70's, and in his ten straight H2H's with Hakeem in those 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, averaged 24 ppg on, get this... 677 shooting (that is not a misprint.)

Moses, a 6-10 center, who rose to power in the late 70's, brutalized Kareem in the majority of their 40 career H2H games...and this against a Kareem from age 29 on.

I could go on and list player-after-player whose careers spanned the 60's and 70's, who shot better, to much better in the 70's. And and even greater difference from those whose careers spanned the decades of the 70's and 80's. The majority shot dramatically better in the 80's (Gilmore went thru the roof in the 80's.)

How? If defense was not being played in the 60's and 70's, explain all of the above to me.

[CavaliersFTW]

Scoring - Kobe Bryant
Superior outside shot, much better ball handling skills allow which allow him to penetrate better, and better footwork and post game. West probably has the better close-midrange shot and certainly had better shot selection, but no doubt Kobe is the better scorer.


Defense - Jerry West
This guy's defense is drastically underrated on this site. He definitely has a case for top 5 perimeter defender of all time. Their respective defensive peaks are probably close, but Kobe was only at that level for about 4 years; Jerry maintained that level for the majority of his career.


Passing/Playmaking - Jerry West
This one is easy. One of the first true combo guards that truly looked to get the whole team involved on a night in, night out basis. West's edge here is larger than the edge Kobe has over West in scoring IMO. Jerry West averaged a 35.1 Asst% in the 71-72 season :eek:


Rebounding - Kobe Bryant
This one was really easy for me as well. Kobe averaged as many rebounds in the 2000s as west did in the 60s-70s. Kobe's TRB% is much large as well and almost twice as large in some instances.



Intangibles - Kobe Bryant?
Only reason I'm hesitant with this one is because I haven't really read much about West's leadership/intangibles. Reason I went with Kobe is that I have read/heard enough about him to know that he really is a true leader.


Overall- Kobe

great post!

[Alan Ogg]

West would be a top 10 player in today's league year in, year out. I put him behind Kobe overall, but that's not a diss at all.

[SuperPippen]

Jordan
Kobe
West































D-Whistle

This.

[Kiddlovesnets]

West is the second greatest SG in NBA history, right below the GOAT. Kobe is known as the poor man's Jerry West.

/Thread

[SuperPippen]

West is the second greatest SG in NBA history, right below the GOAT. Kobe is known as the poor man's Jerry West.

/Thread

Bullshit.

By no criteria can you rank West over Kobe. None.

[cuad]

I used to think Jerry West was an undersized white guy, but then...
http://i.imgur.com/Z8uzm.jpg

[Linspired]

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/jerry-west-kobe-bryant.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/7zfbqz2
http://tinyurl.com/7a8of5s
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0810/nba_g_oscar1_576.jpg
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jerry+West+Houston+Rockets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+1L ipcwKtEcEl.jpg

pat riley was listed at 6ft 4. big O was listed at 6ft 5. i have no idea how tall they are right now because they are grandpas, but it's safe to say west is definitely 6ft 4 ish even at 70+ years young.

[I LUV KOBE]

LOL at people choosing West over Kobe... :facepalm :facepalm

[jlauber]

West's career does not rank over Kobe's. Still, West was probably a better post-season scorer, and had his team's lost EIGHT times in the Finals, including several game seven's (and even an OT loss in a game seven.)

[SuperPippen]

http://thebiglead.fantasysportsven.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/jerry-west-kobe-bryant.jpg
http://tinyurl.com/7zfbqz2
http://tinyurl.com/7a8of5s
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2010/0810/nba_g_oscar1_576.jpg
http://www4.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Jerry+West+Houston+Rockets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+1L ipcwKtEcEl.jpg

pat riley was listed at 6ft 4. big O was listed at 6ft 5. i have no idea how tall they are right now because they are grandpas, but it's safe to say west is definitely 6ft 4 ish even at 70+ years young.

Definitely. And this is in his old age, when he might have lost an inch or two.

West would easily be listed at 6'4" today, possibly more. And that wingspan is impressive, as well.

[Deuce Bigalow]

West's career does not rank over Kobe's. Still, West was probably a better post-season scorer, and had his team's lost EIGHT times in the Finals, including several game seven's (and even an OT loss in a game seven.)
You cannot compare stats in an era of a 40 year difference :facepalm When will you ever get it?
And on the last part, that is mainly due to Wilt's choking which cost West some rings. 4-13 FT shooting in Game 7 69 Finals, 1-11 FT shooting in game 7 70 Finals. Sub 40% FT shooting for the series both those Finals in 69 and 70. If only Wilt didn't choke, West would have 3 NBA Championships and 2 NBA Finals MVPs.

[jlauber]

You cannot compare stats in an era of a 40 year difference :facepalm When will you ever get it?
And on the last part, that is mainly due to Wilt's choking which cost West some rings. 4-13 FT shooting in Game 7 69 Finals, 1-11 FT shooting in game 7 70 Finals. Sub 40% FT shooting for the series both those Finals in 69 and 70. If only Wilt didn't choke, West would have 3 NBA Championships and 2 NBA Finals MVPs.

I agree. Kareem shot much worse in the 70's than he did in the 80's and against much weaker competition in the 80's (players like Ewing, Hakeem, Laimbeer, Parish, Gilmore and Moses.) He had seasons of .539, .529, .518, and even .513 in the 70's. And an old Chamberlain reduced Kareem, a career .559 shooter (who shot .610 against Hakeem in 23 H2H's, and from ages 38-41) to a .464 shooter (and only .434 in their last ten H2H's.) And little known Nate Thurmond probably held Kareem to about 43% shooting in their 43 H2H's. So, yes, the era was much more difficult in the late 60's and early 70's.

Chamberlain shot .875 from the field in game seven of the '69 Finals (West shot 14-29 and MSSED FOUR FTs, and Baylor shot 8-22)...and was on the bench in the last five minutes of that game.

In game seven of the '70 Finals, Walt Frazier just owned West. Wilty shot 1-11 from the line (and 10-16 from the field), but even if he had gone 11-11 they would still have lost.

And how about West in the year in which he did finally win a ring. He shot .376 in that post-season, and get this... .325 in the Finals. Of course, it was WILT who carried that team to a title, and who won the FMVP.

BTW, an injured West shot .443 in the '73 post season, which included a Finals' clinching game loss of 5-17 shooting (while Wilt, in his LAST game, put up a 23 point, 9-16 shooting, 21 rebound game.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt's FT shooting

69 Finals: 24-66
70 Finals: 23-67
73 Finals: 14-38

Total FT shooting in 69, 70, 73 Finals: 61-171

35.7%

[PHILA]

Definitely. And this is in his old age, when he might have lost an inch or two.

West would easily be listed at 6'4" today, possibly more. And that wingspan is impressive, as well.


What is the most disappointing in seeing those photos is that there was once a time that the NBA offially listed Kobe at 6'7.


2001 NBA.com Player File (http://web.archive.org/web/20001110091700/www.nba.com/playerfile/kobe_bryant.html)

http://i.imgur.com/dHEPg.png