35ppg seasons, modern era. [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

scm5

07-16-2012, 06:09 PM

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1987/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1988/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2006/

Just looking at the type of games these two had to have just to have a 35ppg season is incredible.

I don't think it will happen again in a long while, especially with super teams forming. It was entertaining as hell though.

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 06:12 PM

lmao his game score whatever that is in the 81 pt game is 64.

thats like double anything ive ever seen from that category

NOHCP3

07-16-2012, 06:13 PM

Each season only 3 games under 19 points. Wow. I'm only old enough to see the Kobe year and I remember it being like watching a machine...hated that guy :lol

pauk

07-16-2012, 06:28 PM

JORDAN
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1987/

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01/gamelog/1988/

up to ~54% FG

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/approval/grand/approval_944448.gif

KOBE
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01/gamelog/2006/

up to ~45% FG

http://i42.tinypic.com/23wsk6g.gif

FreezingTsmoove

07-16-2012, 06:31 PM

up to ~54% FG

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/approval/grand/approval_944448.gif

up to ~45% FG

http://i42.tinypic.com/23wsk6g.gif

Pauk :bowdown:

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 06:35 PM

up to ~54% FG

http://www.gifsforum.com/images/gif/approval/grand/approval_944448.gif

up to ~45% FG

http://i42.tinypic.com/23wsk6g.gif

3 pointers, buddy

Dictator

07-16-2012, 06:36 PM

Irelevant, buddy

fixed.

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 06:40 PM

fixed.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

how the hell is it irrelevant? 3s are more efficient than 2s yet kobe in this case is punished for taking the more efficient 3 because FG% doesn't factor the extra point.

Its really much closer, jordan still has the adv of course, but not much.

scm5

07-16-2012, 06:42 PM

3 pointers, buddy

True, Jordan barely took any 3's and shot 18.2% and 13.2% from 3, respectively.

Kobe meanwhile, attempted 6.5 3's per game.

TS% would be a better comparison of how efficiently these two players scored.

Kobe: 55.9%
MJ: 56.2% and 60.3%

Close one year, MJ more efficient the other.

One thing is clear though, pauk is a hater.

Mr. I'm So Rad

07-16-2012, 06:45 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll:

how the hell is it irrelevant? 3s are more efficient than 2s yet kobe in this case is punished for taking the more efficient 3 because FG% doesn't factor the extra point.

Its really much closer, jordan still has the adv of course, but not much.

He meant that the FG% difference between Jordan and Kobe is irrelevant

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 06:46 PM

He meant that the FG% difference between Jordan and Kobe is irrelevant

Oh lol

pauk

07-16-2012, 06:46 PM

True, Jordan barely took any 3's and shot 18.2% and 13.2% from 3, respectively.

Kobe meanwhile, attempted 6.5 3's per game.

TS% would be a better comparison of how efficiently these two players scored.

Kobe: 55.9%
MJ: 56.2% and 60.3%

Close one year, MJ more efficient the other.

One thing is clear though, pauk is a hater.

So, why didnt Kobe skip those 3's and score as Jordan instead? I will let you think about that yourself....

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 06:47 PM

So, why didnt Kobe skip those 3's and score as Jordan instead? I will let you think about that yourself....

because he got more points for the 3 you ****ing retard

Jacks3

07-16-2012, 06:49 PM

Kobe had excellent efficiency that year considering his incredible volume.

56% TS
115 ORTG
9% TOV rate (10th lowest in the league :eek: )

He also posted the highest offensive +/- EVER recorded for a season at +21.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

scm5

07-16-2012, 06:51 PM

So, why didnt Kobe skip those 3's and score as Jordan instead? I will let you think about that yourself....

Because Kobe is a better shooter than MJ while MJ was a superior athlete and slasher than Kobe.

Players play to their strengths. It's not like I'm arguing that if Kobe only took 2 point FGA, he would score as efficiently as MJ. I'm saying that He scored nearly as efficiently as MJ did by playing to his strengths.

pauk

07-16-2012, 07:01 PM

because he got more points for the 3 you ****ing retard

Reality is, if Kobe was that good i can guarantee you he would hit & take those same post/midrange/faceup shots and same layups/dunks Jordan created... the reason a player settles for lower percentage shots is because thats the best he could do at that situation while a player with superior talent & skill is able to create higher percentage shots (while still being in a handchecking era in MJ's case).... not because it gives more points...

"Retard"...

Which brings us to the point, Kobe was not as good as Jordan, the reason he got those points is because he took a ridicilous amount of shots... guys today like Lebron & Durant (with those 27 FGA Kobe took) would not only average more than 35 PPG, but on much higher efficiency....

Linspired

07-16-2012, 07:03 PM

jordan had total 37 40+pt games in 87. wow.

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 07:04 PM

Reality is, if Kobe was that good i can guarantee you he would hit & take those same post/midrange/faceup shots and same layups/dunks Jordan created... the reason a player settles for lower percentage shots is because thats the best he could do at that situation while a player with superior talent & skill is able to create higher percentage shots (while still being in a handchecking era in MJ's case).... not because it gives more points...

"Retard"...

Which brings us to the point, Kobe was not as good as Jordan, the reason he got those points is because he took a ridicilous amount of shots... guys today like Lebron & Durant (with those 27 FGA Kobe took) would not only average more than 35 PPG, but on much higher efficiency.... The reason they dont, is because they are no selfish shotjackers...

Oh okay. The reason he would rather score more points on less shots is because hes not good enough to score less points on more shots.

Thanks for letting me know.

Heavincent

07-16-2012, 07:04 PM

Pauk = 3rd dumbest poster on ISH.

But hey, at least you're not first. Lebron23 and LakersReign make you look like Einstein.

Ikill

07-16-2012, 07:06 PM

Pauk is not fan of basketball

Mr. I'm So Rad

07-16-2012, 07:10 PM

Reality is, if Kobe was that good i can guarantee you he would hit & take those same post/midrange/faceup shots and same layups/dunks Jordan created... the reason a player settles for lower percentage shots is because thats the best he could do at that situation while a player with superior talent & skill is able to create higher percentage shots (while still being in a handchecking era in MJ's case).... not because it gives more points...

"Retard"...

Which brings us to the point, Kobe was not as good as Jordan, the reason he got those points is because he took a ridicilous amount of shots... guys today like Lebron & Durant (with those 27 FGA Kobe took) would not only average more than 35 PPG, but on much higher efficiency....

Pauk, please refresh my memory. How many 35 PPG seasons has LeBron had?

Linspired

07-16-2012, 07:18 PM

Pauk, please refresh my memory. How many 35 PPG seasons has LeBron had?

he is saying bron could, but bron won't.

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 07:21 PM

he is saying bron could, but bron won't.

because you see, losing is awesome. 1 championship instead of a possible 3 by now if he had simply scored more points is much better

Doctor Rivers

07-16-2012, 07:22 PM

he is saying bron could, but bron won't.

But he can't.

Poetry

07-16-2012, 07:38 PM

lmao his game score whatever that is in the 81 pt game is 64.

thats like double anything ive ever seen from that category

Second only to the GOAT.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score_game.html

Well since 1985 i should say, who knows what Wilt put up.

OldSchoolBBall

07-16-2012, 11:25 PM

Its really much closer, jordan still has the adv of course, but not much.

Even looking strictly at 2's, Kobe shot 48.2% (+2.3% above league average FG% and only +0.4% above league average 2FG%) as compared to MJ's 54.6% (+6.4% above league average FG% and +5.6% above league average 2FG%). So no, not really close at all. Nice try, though.

StarJordan

07-16-2012, 11:29 PM

So what OP is saying is even in the 35ppg years category, Jordan doubles Kobe (2:1) as the lead guard. Next point.

RazorBaLade

07-16-2012, 11:37 PM

Even looking strictly at 2's, Kobe shot 48.2% (+2.3% above league average FG% and only +0.4% above league average 2FG%) as compared to MJ's 54.6% (+6.4% above league average FG% and +5.6% above league average 2FG%). So no, not really close at all. Nice try, though.

What? What relevance does only 2's have to overall efficiency? Next you're going to tell me jordan shoots better from 17 to 19 feet going left? Awesome, who cares.

The fact of the matter is that once 3pointers are adjusted for being worth more points to offset them being less efficient, jordan is about 2-3% more efficient. Which happens to be about 1 more missed shot by kobe every 2 games.

Halcon

07-16-2012, 11:44 PM

Just to put things in perspective regarding Jordan's 37 vs Kobe's 35...

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 37.1
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.0
3. Alex English*-DEN 28.6
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 28.1
5. Kiki Vandeweghe-POR 26.9

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4
4. Gilbert Arenas-WAS 29.3
5. Dwyane Wade-MIA 27.2

kurt_rambis

07-16-2012, 11:53 PM

it's interesting, the average number of games won by those lakers and bulls teams were only 45

OldSchoolBBall

07-17-2012, 12:40 AM

What? What relevance does only 2's have to overall efficiency? Next you're going to tell me jordan shoots better from 17 to 19 feet going left? Awesome, who cares.

The fact of the matter is that once 3pointers are adjusted for being worth more points to offset them being less efficient, jordan is about 2-3% more efficient. Which happens to be about 1 more missed shot by kobe every 2 games.

Even if you use eFG% (which is a busted stat), Jordan was still +4.6% above Kobe. Not 2-3%...nearly 5%. Try again.

I LUV KOBE

07-17-2012, 12:45 AM

Kobe avg 35ppg in the best defensive era >>> Mike avg 37ppg in no defense era..

Halcon

07-17-2012, 12:52 AM

Best defensive era where 3 players can average over 30ppg... :lol

RazorBaLade

07-17-2012, 01:11 AM

Even if you use eFG% (which is a busted stat), Jordan was still +4.6% above Kobe. Not 2-3%...nearly 5%. Try again.

And if you use TS% what is it?

Why ignore FTs?

OldSchoolBBall

07-17-2012, 01:25 AM

And if you use TS% what is it?

Why ignore FTs?

TS% difference is 4.3%, which is an enormous difference. Try. Again.

Story Up

07-17-2012, 01:25 AM

Even looking strictly at 2's, Kobe shot 48.2% (+2.3% above league average FG% and only +0.4% above league average 2FG%) as compared to MJ's 54.6% (+6.4% above league average FG% and +5.6% above league average 2FG%). So no, not really close at all. Nice try, though.
You're a ****ing moron, MJ shot minus 20% from 3 LOL, what's your point dipshit? We shouldn't look at 3's bc MJ sucked at those? MJ is ****ing overrated, so many ****ing random players had ridiculous numbers in that era. Ppl need to understand times have changed. Kobe would average 40 PPG on 50% in 80's.

Jordan got single coverage on the perimeter all the time, look at the tapes, the defensive pressure was way more lackadaisical back then. Which is why most every team scored 100 PPG plus and shot ridiculously high.

RazorBaLade

07-17-2012, 01:39 AM

TS% difference is 4.3%, which is an enormous difference. Try. Again.

Oh god, my prediction was 3 but its actually 4. Oh god.

Practically no difference from the 9 with FG% right.

OldSchoolBBall

07-17-2012, 02:17 AM

Oh god, my prediction was 3 but its actually 4. Oh god.

Practically no difference from the 9 with FG% right.

A 4+% difference in TS% is huge. I don't think you really understand what it means to be 6.6%% above league average TS% (Jordan) as compared to only +2.4 above league average like Kobe. Astronomical difference.

RazorBaLade

07-17-2012, 02:21 AM

A 4+% difference in TS% is huge. I don't think you really understand what it means to be 6.6%% above league average TS% (Jordan) as compared to only +2.4 above league average like Kobe. Astronomical difference.

4% difference on 20 shots a game is just under 1 missed shot per game. 1 shot. Its not huge, its clear, its obvious, but its not huge.

League average means absolutely, absolutely nothing. Theres no reason to say jordan is above league average because hes so good and not just hes better because theres no one that good at the time.

Kobes career has gone through:

AI
SHAQ
DUNCAN
DIRK
LEBRON
WADE
KG

How many top 20 players all time has kobe been playing vs?

MJ had... A little of bird, rookie shaq and drexler?

NuggetsFan

07-17-2012, 02:24 AM

You're a ****ing moron, MJ shot minus 20% from 3 LOL, what's your point dipshit? We shouldn't look at 3's bc MJ sucked at those? MJ is ****ing overrated, so many ****ing random players had ridiculous numbers in that era. Ppl need to understand times have changed. Kobe would average 40 PPG on 50% in 80's.

Jordan got single coverage on the perimeter all the time, look at the tapes, the defensive pressure was way more lackadaisical back then. Which is why most every team scored 100 PPG plus and shot ridiculously high.

http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/a/a2/Santana_Crying.gif

LOL tell us how you really feel

OldSchoolBBall

07-17-2012, 02:26 AM

RazorBaLade

07-17-2012, 02:27 AM

You're all over the place in this topic, but that's to be expected since you're dense. Kobe "went through" those guys? No, he did not go through Lebron or Wade, he played against them during the regular season. In which case we can list players for MJ too:

Magic
Bird
Barkley
Hakeem
Shaq
DRob
Malone
Drexler
Isiah
Hill
Penny
Payton
Kemp

So we agree that since kobe had more top level players in the league during his career its understandable that hes not as much above league averages?

SuperPippen

07-17-2012, 02:27 AM

:facepalm

Goddamn pauk, turning this into a another vs. thread when it might have a been a great thread appreciating two great players.

SuperPippen

07-17-2012, 02:36 AM

4% difference on 20 shots a game is just under 1 missed shot per game. 1 shot. Its not huge, its clear, its obvious, but its not huge.

League average means absolutely, absolutely nothing. Theres no reason to say jordan is above league average because hes so good and not just hes better because theres no one that good at the time.

Kobes career has gone through:

AI
SHAQ
DUNCAN
DIRK
LEBRON
WADE
KG

How many top 20 players all time has kobe been playing vs?

MJ had... A little of bird, rookie shaq and drexler?

I agree with you that because the 3-pointer is ultimately a more efficient shot than a 2-pointer, FG% is inherently flawed. However, that's not so say that TS% is a better statistic, because it, too, is flawed. Not all shots are created equally, even within the 3-point line.

No one should base their opinions solely on statistics, but we all should already know that.

And for the sake of (hopefully) fair, unbiased comparison, here are the arguable top 20 players that Kobe and Jordan played a significant part of their career against:

Jordan:
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq

Kobe:
Duncan
LeBron
KG
Dirk

RazorBaLade

07-17-2012, 02:46 AM

I agree with you that because the 3-pointer is ultimately a more efficient shot than a 2-pointer, FG% is inherently flawed. However, that's not so say that TS% is a better statistic, because it, too, is flawed. Not all shots are created equally, even within the 3-point line.

No one should base their opinions solely on statistics, but we all should already know that.

And for the sake of (hopefully) fair, unbiased comparison, here are the arguable top 20 players that Kobe and Jordan played a significant part of their career against:

Jordan:
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Barkley
Malone
Shaq

Kobe:
Duncan
LeBron
KG
Dirk

I agree theres no perfect stat but cmon.. Its not nearly a double digit difference in efficiency. Its just not. Hes just not that much better. It doesnt mean kobe is instantly somehow as good as jordan but its a lot closer than that. TS paints a very accurate picture with a 4% difference IMO.

Don't know about shaq being in jordans list and not kobes. In this case its not about playing AGAINST, its just how many players are there that can drive up that league average. Same team is fine to me.

SuperPippen

07-17-2012, 03:03 AM

I agree theres no perfect stat but cmon.. Its not nearly a double digit difference in efficiency. Its just not. Hes just not that much better. It doesnt mean kobe is instantly somehow as good as jordan but its a lot closer than that. TS paints a very accurate picture with a 4% difference IMO.

Don't know about shaq being in jordans list and not kobes. In this case its not about playing AGAINST, its just how many players are there that can drive up that league average. Same team is fine to me.

In that case, I would agree. And going beyond arguable top 20 all time players, you would have to include guys like McGrady, AI, Carter, Pierce, and Dirk in Kobe's prime.

RazorBaLade

07-17-2012, 03:18 AM

yep. And again, really my point is that sure no matter what stat I pick kobes still worse than jordan.. No cherrypick I can pull off. But its just a lot closer than a few select people believe.

scandisk_

07-17-2012, 03:34 AM

Best defensive era where 3 players can average over 30ppg... :lol

:lol

OldSchoolBBall

07-17-2012, 10:39 AM

I can't believe this dude is trying to act like a difference of +8.5% FG/+6.4% eFG/+4.3% TS on equal volume is a small thing. He has no understanding of statistics, standard deviation etc. Hysterical. These are ENORMOUS differences in the world of basketball and this dude is trying to casually brush them off. Wow. :oldlol:

guy

07-17-2012, 11:33 AM

4% difference on 20 shots a game is just under 1 missed shot per game. 1 shot. Its not huge, its clear, its obvious, but its not huge.

League average means absolutely, absolutely nothing. Theres no reason to say jordan is above league average because hes so good and not just hes better because theres no one that good at the time.

Kobes career has gone through:

AI
SHAQ
DUNCAN
DIRK
LEBRON
WADE
KG

How many top 20 players all time has kobe been playing vs?

MJ had... A little of bird, rookie shaq and drexler?

Are you just mentioning players that Kobe went up against in the playoffs when you say "gone through" or just players that played in the same era? Cause he never played Shaq, Lebron, or Wade in the playoffs. And AI has no argument for top 20.

Jordan had a "little of Bird" the same way Kobe has had a "little of Lebron". Jordan and Bird played in the same league and conference for a span of 8 years. Jordan played against Shaq for the majority of 5 years, not including his Wizard years. :oldlol: at the idea that thats all he faced. Not including the Wizard years, Jordan spent significant time playing in the same league against the following while they were at or close to their prime:

Bird
Magic
Isiah
Barkley
Hakeem
Malone
Shaq
Robinson

All very arguable top 20 players.

In Kobe's case the list looks like:

Shaq
Duncan
KG
Dirk
Lebron
Wade
Durant (potentially at this rate)
Howard (potentially at this rate)

This idea that Kobe was playing in a more talented league is completely stupid.

LikeABosh

07-17-2012, 11:36 AM

Durant would have a chance to score 35 ppg if it weren't for Westbrook

StarJordan

07-18-2012, 12:07 AM

1. Michael Jordan*-CHI 37.1
2. Dominique Wilkins*-ATL 29.0
3. Alex English*-DEN 28.6
4. Larry Bird*-BOS 28.1
5. Kiki Vandeweghe-POR 26.9

1. Kobe Bryant-LAL 35.4
2. Allen Iverson-PHI 33.0
3. LeBron James-CLE 31.4

This is the difference right here....Kobe was just 6% ahead of the #2 guy when he had his big year....a lot of guys score big that year with new offensive rules.....where MJ was WAY ahead of #2 dominique at 27% advantage, 4 times as big as Kobe's gap.

Jordan = #1 to #10