'92 Dream Team vs. '72 Dream Team

[jlauber]

There has been some speculation here on how the '92 Dream Team would have fared against the '12 Dream Team. Which is interesting, since it was 20 years ago that the '92 team dominated in the Olympics. How about this 20 year difference, and how would it have turned out?

'92 Dream Team

Christian Laettner
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Larry Bird
Scottie Pippen
Michael Jordan
Clyde Drexler
Karl Malone
John Stockton
Chris Mullin
Charles Barkley
Magic Johnson

Against this team...


'72 Dream Team

Dr. J
Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Nate Archibald
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich
Jerry Lucas*
Walt Frazier
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

Possible alternates:

Dave Cowens
David Thompson
Pete Maravich
Bill Walton
Bob McAdoo
Nate Thurmond

*Lucas was nearing the end of his career, but still put up a 16.7 ppg, 13.1 rpg, .512 season. And those that saw him play would claim that he was the probably the best long range shooter of his era. Look up the term, "Lucas Layup." Lucas was a 6-8 Kevin Love before Kevin Love.

I would entertain some of the alternates. For instance, in that post-season, Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem. Thompson, Walton, and McAdoo were in dominating in college. McAdoo would have given this team a player who could score from all over the floor. Cowens would win the MVP the very next season, and possessed smooth 18-20 ft range (and could have probably played a PF.) Maravich was nowhere near his best NBA season, but he was still the flashiest player in the league.

The rest of that '72 "Dream Team" had Rick Barry, who was very good outside shooter, and one of the greatest pure scorers in NBA history. He was still in the ABA at that time, but he had won a scoring title with the highest "non-Wilt" season during the Chamberlain-era, and would later average 31 ppg in the '75 NBA (as well as winning the FMVP.) And in the 71-72 ABA, Barry averaged 31.5 ppg.

Dr. J was spectacular as an ABA rookie, and would have his greatest ABA season the very next year (and of course, this game would take place between seasons and in the summer.)

Issel averaged 30.6 ppg and 11.2 rpg in the '72 ABA. While he was never as dominating later in his NBA career, he did have multiple 20+ ppg seasons.

Archibald was in his second season, and averaged 28.2 ppg and 9.2 apg. He would average a league-leading 34.0 ppg and a league-leading 11.4 apg the very next season.

Havlicek, West, Goodrich, and Frazier were all outstanding guards and playing nearly as well as they would at their peaks. Havlicek could also play the SF position. Other than Goodrich, all were excellent defenders, too.

As for the center positions...as great as Ewing and Robinson were, especially in '92, they would have been outmatched in size, skill, strength, and athleticism by the trio of a PRIME Kareem, an ABA MVP Gilmore, and a FMVP Chamberlain. Chamberlain would probably have won the DPOY had the award existed in '72 BTW.

As for the '92 team, Bird and Magic were at the ends of their careers (although Magic was still an effective player.) And Laettner would probably not have contributed much at all in this scenario. A better case could have been made for Hakeem or even Shaq instead of him. With either of those two, the center position battles would have been much more even.

The '92 team would have a PF advantage, with both Malone and Barkley. Lucas was still a decent rebounder, but was nowhere near his peak. I would argue, however, that a peak Lucas would have been a match for either on the glass. Still, put a young McAdoo on the '72 team, and with his ability to play either center or PF, and being a quality rebounder, he would have given the '72 team a better chance on the glass. Also, if you find a roster spot for Cowens, I have no doubt that he could have played the PF position, as well.

Having given the '92 an advantage in rebounding at the PF position, the '72 team would have killed Robinson and Ewing on the glass at the center position. Even a PRIME Kareem was probably their equal, and Wilt and Gilmore were considerably better. Keep in mind that Wilt would average 22.5 rpg in the '73 post-season, too...which was the last time any player ever averaged over 17.3 rpg in the post-season.

Of course, the player who would be the biggest mismatch for the '72 team would have been a PRIME MJ. Frazier and West were among the best defensive guards of all-time, and they could nearly match Jordan's size, but there would be no way that they could contain him.

All-in-all, an interesting "what-if?"

[maybeshewill13]

No one cares.

[jlauber]

No one cares.

Thanks again for not only taking the time to read the topic, but to even take away from your busy evening, and comment on it, as well.

[EnoughSaid]

Great thread! 5 starred. Bookmarked.

Didnt read lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://ajsupreme.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/mj-laughing1.gif

[PistolPete44]

No one cares.
How does having ur favourite team beaten by lebrick in the final feel ?:lol it will happen again next year dont worry

[jlauber]

BTW, I would not only have replaced Laettner with Shaq, but Bird with Rodman on the '92 team.

[Leviathon1121]

No one cares.

I care, and I think it would be a very fun game to watch.

[jlauber]

http://ajsupreme.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/mj-laughing1.gif

Those that claim that the '92 Dream Team would whip the '12 Dream Team, need to realize that it was 20 years ago when the '92 team dominated. So, if that '92, at it's peak, was better than a team that has been formed 20 years later...the same game can be played with the hypothetical '72 "Dream Team", as well.

[scandisk_]

Wilt + Kareem

Holly shiii... That would be a murder


and


http://www.exgeeinteractive.com/mj-wilt.jpg

:rockon:

That'd be one for the ages

[jlauber]

Wilt + Kareem

Holly shiii... That would be a murder

And indeed this would have possibilties, too. I honestly believe that a PRIME and athletic (and skilled) Kareem, could have played a double-low post offense with a powerful Wilt. And I think Kareem at that age, could have guarded players like Karl Malone, and perhaps even Barkley. Kareem was a gifted athlete coming out of college.

[jlauber]

I think I will go with this as the '72 12 man roster...

Dr. J
Barry
Cowens
McAdoo
Lucas
Havlicek
Frazier
Archibald
West
Goodrich
Wilt
Kareem

Cowens and McAdoo can probably play both the PF and Center positions, so no need for Gilmore, and their overall versatility is more valuable than what Issel would bring to the table. And, I suspect that they could at least minimize the '92 team's edge in rebounding at the PF position.

Of course, and once again, I would have replaced Bird with Rodman, and Laettner with either Shaq or Hakeem. And, because Wilt and Kareem would be listed at 7-2 and 7-3 respectively, and because Wilt was muich stronger than either Robinson or Ewing, I think I would have added a young (and more athletic) Shaq.

[DTreats]

If you replace Bird with Rodman on the 92 squad, then Rodman absolutely shuts Wilt DOWN.

[jlauber]

If you replace Bird with Rodman on the 92 squad, then Rodman absolutely shuts Wilt DOWN.

Actually, I think it would be the other way around. Rodman would finally have to battle a GREAT rebounding center for the first time in his NBA career. Shaq, Robinson, and Hakeem were very good rebounders, but they were never GREAT rebounders. A 300 lb. Chamberlain, at 7-2 and with a 7-8 wingspan, and still capable of knocking Kareem's "unblockable" sky hook all over the gym (and while it was at it's peak, too) would not allow Rodman to outrebound him.

[kennethgriffin]

why even bother

jordan fans would pick the team with jordan on it even if it was

Smush parker
Michael Jordan
Luke Walton
brian cook
Kwame Brown

vs

the 92 dream team ( minus michael jordan )

i hate jordan fans... no objectivity... pure re*fuGGINtards

[Deuce Bigalow]

I think I will go with this as the '72 12 man roster...

Dr. J
Barry
Cowens
McAdoo
Lucas
Havlicek
Frazier
Archibald
West
Goodrich
Wilt
Kareem

Cowens and McAdoo can probably play both the PF and Center positions, so no need for Gilmore, and their overall versatility is more valuable than what Issel would bring to the table. And, I suspect that they could at least minimize the '92 team's edge in rebounding at the PF position.

Of course, and once again, I would have replaced Bird with Rodman, and Laettner with either Shaq or Hakeem. And, because Wilt and Kareem would be listed at 7-2 and 7-3 respectively, and because Wilt was muich stronger than either Robinson or Ewing, I think I would have added a young (and more athletic) Shaq.
We already know you're delusional.

:sleeping

[jlauber]

why even bother

jordan fans would pick the team with jordan on it even if it was

Smush parker
Michael Jordan
Luke Walton
brian cook
Kwame Brown

vs

the 92 dream team ( minus michael jordan )

i hate jordan fans... no objectivity... pure re*fuGGINtards


A '92 MJ would be the best player on the floor in a '92 vs. '72 "Dream Team" matchup, but still, a PRIME Kareem would probably be a near equal in scoring...especially with players like Archibald, West, or Frazier getting him the ball. We all saw what a Kareem could accomplish when paired with Magic (and an old Oscar.)

[jlauber]

We already know you're delusional.

:sleeping

Ths coming from the clown who claimed that Wilt going 1-11 from the FT line in a game seven blowout loss in the '70 Finals (and even if he had gone 11-11 in that game they would STILL have lost)...cost him 3-4 rings.

Amazing how much one game (and he was clearly LA's best player on the floor in that game BTW) can have so much impact over a player's career...

[julizaver]

And indeed this would have possibilties, too. I honestly believe that a PRIME and athletic (and skilled) Kareem, could have played a double-low post offense with a powerful Wilt. And I think Kareem at that age, could have guarded players like Karl Malone, and perhaps even Barkley. Kareem was a gifted athlete coming out of college.

I would add Oscar Robertson to that team to the expense of Gilmore, although 1972 was not his best year. He was a complete player and by all accounts he was capable defender as well.
When you have Kareem and Wilt + Lucas (as a PF) capable of playing over 40 minutes per game there will be not many minutes for Gilmore.
If I was the coach of the 1972 team I will start with:

PG O. Robertson (if healthy enough)
SG W. Frazier
SF Dr. J
PF J. Lucas
C K.A. Jabbar

[Xiao Yao You]

Hakeem wasn't a citizen yet. Brad Daugherty was though.

[jlauber]

I would add Oscar Robertson to that team to the expense of Gilmore, although 1972 was not his best year. He was a complete player and by all accounts he was capable defender as well.
When you have Kareem and Wilt + Lucas (as a PF) capable of playing over 40 minutes per game there will be not many minutes for Gilmore.
If I was the coach of the 1972 team I will start with:

PG O. Robertson (if healthy enough)
SG W. Frazier
SF Dr. J
PF J. Lucas
C K.A. Jabbar

I did wind up replacing Gilmore and Issel with Cowens and McAdoo. Both would have given the '72 team more rebounding at the PF position. And both (especially McAdoo) had very good range. I don't have a problem with a healthy Oscar, either. He could replace Havlicek, I guess.

I would want to keep West and Goodrich because of their range. And Archibald was not only a great passer, he was a great penetrator, and actually led the NBA (and by a wide margin) in FTM's in that '72 season...all at only 6-1 and 150 lbs. And once again, in his very next season he would put up a 34 ppg 11.4 apg season.

[eliteballer]

'72 Dream Team

Dr. J
Rick Barry
Artis Gilmore
Dan Issel
Nate Archibald
John Havlicek
Jerry West
Gail Goodrich
Jerry Lucas*
Walt Frazier
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain

Possible alternates:

Dave Cowens
David Thompson
Pete Maravich
Bill Walton
Bob McAdoo
Nate Thurmond


If youre going to use the best of the best, Nique and Isiah should be with the 92 team, and sneaky of you to use guys who were still in college as alternates. We might as well give the 92 team Shaq Webber Hill Penny whoever as alternates.

[Linspired]

72 dream team 90
92 dream team 105


drob & ewing will actually hold their own against wilt & kareem, and MJ & Co will be just too much. 92 dream team is a playmaking machine.

21 year old Dr. J will get tooled by pippen or drexler for sure.

[jlauber]

If youre going to use the best of the best, Nique and Isiah should be with the 92 team, and sneaky of you to use guys who were still in college as alternates. We might as well give the 92 team Shaq Webber Hill Penny whoever as alternates.

Wasn't sneaky at all. The '92 team had Laettner, who had not played an NBA game yet. And, BTW, I already stated that I would have replaced Laettner with Shaq (and an old washed up Bird with Rodman.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Ths coming from the clown who claimed that Wilt going 1-11 from the FT line in a game seven blowout loss in the '70 Finals (and even if he had gone 11-11 in that game they would STILL have lost)...cost him 3-4 rings.

Amazing how much one game (and he was clearly LA's best player on the floor in that game BTW) can have so much impact over a player's career...
No I never said one game cost him 2 rings :facepalm

Wilt shot a combined 35.7 FT% (61-171) in the '69, '70, '73 NBA Finals. Wilt shot a combined 27.0 FT% (10/37) in the series clinchers in those 3 NBA Finals series. That cost the Lakers some rings.

[TheBigVeto]

The team with Wilt will lose because he will choke big time.

/thread.

[jlauber]

No I never said one game cost him 2 rings :facepalm

Wilt shot a combined 35.7 FT% (61-171) in the '69, '70, '73 NBA Finals. Wilt shot a combined 27.0 FT% (10/37) in the series clinchers in those 3 NBA Finals series. That cost the Lakers some rings.

I am not going to bother to sift through all of your garbage posts to prove my point. In any case, he was the best Laker player on the floor in the clinching losses in '70 and '73, and while he shot .875 from the FIELD in game seven of the '69 Finals, his teammates collectively shot .360.

[jlauber]

The team with Wilt will lose because he will choke big time.

/thread.

Yep.


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

[julizaver]

72 dream team 90
92 dream team 105


drob & ewing will actually hold their own against wilt & kareem, and MJ & Co will be just too much. 92 dream team is a playmaking machine.

21 year old Dr. J will get tooled by pippen or drexler for sure.

No, Kareem will score his points for sure - you can check easily in basketball-reference what an old over 38 years Kareem was able to do against Hakeem and Ewing. And Wilt is superior rebounder than all.

Not quite sure that Pippen or Drexler will stop young Dr.J ..., I mean that Drexler is a guard and Dr. J is a 0.506 career shooter and in his ABA rookey season he average 27.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg (career high by btw) and 4.0 apg.

In my opinion the main advantage of 1992 will be M. Jordan at SG and Barkley at PF

Here are the stats for Dream team in Barcelona:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/teams/USA/1992

[jlauber]

No, Kareem will score his points for sure - you can check easily in basketball-reference what an old over 38 years Kareem was able to do against Hakeem and Ewing. And Wilt is superior rebounder than all.

Not quite sure that Pippen or Drexler will stop young Dr.J ..., I mean that Drexler is a guard and Dr. J is a 0.506 career shooter and in his ABA rookey season he average 27.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg (career high by btw) and 4.0 apg.

In my opinion the main advantage of 1992 will be M. Jordan at SG and Barkley at PF

Here are the stats for Dream team in Barcelona:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/teams/USA/1992

I agree with 100% of this...

:applause:

And while anything can happen in one game, I think a seven game series would be pretty close.

[Xiao Yao You]

If youre going to use the best of the best, Nique and Isiah should be with the 92 team, and sneaky of you to use guys who were still in college as alternates. We might as well give the 92 team Shaq Webber Hill Penny whoever as alternates.

Isiah yes. Dominique no. Shaq was only collegiate good enough for the Dream Team.

[Horatio33]

Jlauber, your microsoft word saved folder must be full. Of shit.

[Linspired]

No, Kareem will score his points for sure - you can check easily in basketball-reference what an old over 38 years Kareem was able to do against Hakeem and Ewing. And Wilt is superior rebounder than all.

Not quite sure that Pippen or Drexler will stop young Dr.J ..., I mean that Drexler is a guard and Dr. J is a 0.506 career shooter and in his ABA rookey season he average 27.3 ppg, 15.7 rpg (career high by btw) and 4.0 apg.

In my opinion the main advantage of 1992 will be M. Jordan at SG and Barkley at PF

Here are the stats for Dream team in Barcelona:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/olympics/teams/USA/1992


we are talking about 20 years of basketball evolution between them. veteran pippen & drexler would tool rookie/sophomore dr. J for sure.

it's not always about the stat. blake griffin avg 21/11 as a rookie, but he would get tooled by 39 year old malone.


92 dream team has advantage in every position except the center position. but drob/ewing will hold their own against young kareem, great but old wilt.

[jlauber]

we are talking about 20 years of basketball evolution between them. veteran pippen & drexler would tool rookie/sophomore dr. J for sure.

it's not always about the stat. blake griffin avg 21/11 as a rookie, but he would get tooled by 39 year old malone.


92 dream team has advantage in every position except the center position. but drob/ewing will hold their own against young kareem, great but old wilt.

You may be right, but I have long maintained that Kareem peaked in his second and third seasons. From that point on he was still obviously a great player for many years. IMHO, the real debate is/was which was his greater overall season, '71, in which he had a very good post-season, or '72, in which he hit a statistical peak, but was outplayed by both Thurmond and Wilt in the post-season (and only shot .437 overall.) His '71 season was also accomplished in only 40 mpg, instead of the 44 mpg that he had in '72. And he shot .577 from the field, too, in a league which shot .449...or a career high differential of .128.

And, of course, thanks to CavsFan, there is footage of an older Laker Wilt, in which he is blocking just about everything. Not only would Chamberlain hold both Ewing and Robinson way down, he would pretty much shut the lane down, too.

And Barry was near his prime in '72. You would have to watch footage of him to appreciate how good he was, but he was not only one of the greatest pure scorers of all-time, he was also an excellent passer and ball-handler.

And while West was slowing down, he was still a 25.8 ppg scorer who LED the NBA in apg in '72, and was First Team All-Defense, too. MJ would have the advantage, of course, but West would not have been cannon-fodder, either.

BTW, watch the footage of game seven of the '74 Finals on YouTube if you have time. You will be very impressed with the play of relative unknown Dave Cowens. And while he played center in his career, I think he was skilled and athletic enough to have been able to play the PF position, too. And combine that, with McAdoo's incredible scoring and shooting range, and the '92 edge at PF would not be sizeable at all.

[julizaver]

Yep.

I know it is an off-topic, but to add some info to your notes.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.


28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.


34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

[Psileas]

Here's another interesting (and more realistic) question: How would the rest of the '72 world fare against the 1972 Dream Team? There would definitely be some epic massacres over there. Let's not forget, the world hadn't been catching up to the US once the NBAers lost or came close to losing (2000 USA squad). They had been catching up for decades. The USA-Rest of the world distance was definitely greater in 1972 than in 1992 and I wouldn't be surprised if a fully prepared USA team blasted the Soviets by 40+ points and anyone else by 50+.

More relevant to the OQ, the 1992 Dream Team was the greatest team ever assembled, but probably not the greatest team that could have ever be assembled (after all, as already mentioned, someone like Wilkins or young Shaq instead of Laettner would make them even stronger). The Dream Teams formed in the late 60's-early 70's or mid-late 80's could give the '92 squad a run for its money.

[jlauber]

Here's another interesting (and more realistic) question: How would the rest of the '72 world fare against the 1972 Dream Team? There would definitely be some epic massacres over there. Let's not forget, the world hadn't been catching up to the US once the NBAers lost or came close to losing (2000 USA squad). They had been catching up for decades. The USA-Rest of the world distance was definitely greater in 1972 than in 1992 and I wouldn't be surprised if a fully prepared USA team blasted the Soviets by 40+ points and anyone else by 50+.

More relevant to the OQ, the 1992 Dream Team was the greatest team ever assembled, but probably not the greatest team that could have ever be assembled (after all, as already mentioned, someone like Wilkins or young Shaq instead of Laettner would make them even stronger). The Dream Teams formed in the late 60's-early 70's or mid-late 80's could give the '92 squad a run for its money.

Our '68 team, which of course at the time could only have college players, didn't have Alcindor, Unseld, Hayes, or Maravich. Instead, it went with Spencer Haywood and a bunch of no names...and not only went 9-0...they won their games by an average margin of 26 ppg.

Had Kareem, Hayes, et. al played, it probably would have been 40-50. And had we sent our best pros, and only god would know how bad those routs would have been.

[Asukal]

LOL! There's only one guy who could match up from the 72 team and that is Kareem. Everyone else would get schooled, this is not much of a contest.

It's the Dream Team vs the 72 Dreaming team. :roll:

[Duncan21formvp]

Good matchup, would love to see MJ and Kareem go at it.

[julizaver]

we are talking about 20 years of basketball evolution between them. veteran pippen & drexler would tool rookie/sophomore dr. J for sure.

it's not always about the stat. blake griffin avg 21/11 as a rookie, but he would get tooled by 39 year old malone.


92 dream team has advantage in every position except the center position. but drob/ewing will hold their own against young kareem, great but old wilt.


Ewing against Kareem in 8 meetings (from 1985 to 1989) or in Kareem last four seasons:

Kareem - 20.6 ppg in 31.5 minutes per game on 0.581 shooting
Ewing - 18.8 ppg in 35.1 minutes per game on 0.446 shooting

And against Hakeem (just for compassion) considered one of the best defensive centers Kareem scored 22.5 ppg in 23 regular season meetings shooting 0.607.

In 1972 we have not only young, but statistically prime 25 years old Kareem in his third season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=abdulka01

[bmd]

'92 dream team would DESTROY the '72 dream team. It wouldn't even be close.

I think the 2012 "dream team" would beat the '92 dream team, but not as bad as the '92 team would beat the '72 team.

I think basketball evolved more from '72 to '92 than from '92 to '12.


People who say the '92 team would destroy the '12 team are out of their minds.

Players today all looked up to Jordan when he was playing and modeled their game after him. Look at players like Dwayne Wade making acrobatic shots and layups, LeBron doing the same, Kobe doing the same, etc.

Most players on the '92 dream team didn't have the pure talent and skill that many of the 2012 players have. Amazing plays that Jordan used to make are made all the time now in the NBA.

I mean, dunk contests are boring now because it's all been done before. Under the leg dunks don't even excite us anymore.

A lot of you won't admit it... but players now are just better than they were 20 years ago if you are comparing them head-to-head.

[BigBalla44]

'92 dream team would DESTROY the '72 dream team. It wouldn't even be close.

I think the 2012 "dream team" would beat the '92 dream team, but not as bad as the '92 team would beat the '72 team.

I think basketball evolved more from '72 to '92 than from '92 to '12.


People who say the '92 team would destroy the '12 team are out of their minds.

Players today all looked up to Jordan when he was playing and modeled their game after him. Look at players like Dwayne Wade making acrobatic shots and layups, LeBron doing the same, Kobe doing the same, etc.

Most players on the '92 dream team didn't have the pure talent and skill that many of the 2012 players have. Amazing plays that Jordan used to make are made all the time now in the NBA.

I mean, dunk contests are boring now because it's all been done before. Under the leg dunks don't even excite us anymore.

A lot of you won't admit it... but players now are just better than they were 20 years ago if you are comparing them head-to-head.


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Linspired]

Ewing against Kareem in 8 meetings (from 1985 to 1989) or in Kareem last four seasons:

Kareem - 20.6 ppg in 31.5 minutes per game on 0.581 shooting
Ewing - 18.8 ppg in 35.1 minutes per game on 0.446 shooting

And against Hakeem (just for compassion) considered one of the best defensive centers Kareem scored 22.5 ppg in 23 regular season meetings shooting 0.607.

In 1972 we have not only young, but statistically prime 25 years old Kareem in his third season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=ewingpa01&p2=abdulka01


that's a flawed logic. 92 ewing was a seasoned vet. no doubt ewing who became much better defensively would do a good job on neutralizing kareem especially when 4 other guys will provide a tremendous help D. i'm only giving the old timers a slight advantage.

lakers kareem wasn't the same player athletically. but he is one of those 'been there done that' vet with a great basketball IQ. he was a perfect fit for that team. he didn't have to do too much, didn't even have to waste so much energy on the D, and he was just so effective because even without athleticism, he can still shoot over anybody.

and don't count out drob, who was in his athletic prime with 4.5 block shots in 91-92. he would also stand toe to toe with great kareem & wilt. drob would be the most athletic of the 4 centers at this stage. kareem would be the most fluid player, but drob would have significant strength advantage.

[Linspired]

'92 dream team would DESTROY the '72 dream team. It wouldn't even be close.

I think the 2012 "dream team" would beat the '92 dream team, but not as bad as the '92 team would beat the '72 team.

I think basketball evolved more from '72 to '92 than from '92 to '12.


People who say the '92 team would destroy the '12 team are out of their minds.

Players today all looked up to Jordan when he was playing and modeled their game after him. Look at players like Dwayne Wade making acrobatic shots and layups, LeBron doing the same, Kobe doing the same, etc.

Most players on the '92 dream team didn't have the pure talent and skill that many of the 2012 players have. Amazing plays that Jordan used to make are made all the time now in the NBA.

I mean, dunk contests are boring now because it's all been done before. Under the leg dunks don't even excite us anymore.

A lot of you won't admit it... but players now are just better than they were 20 years ago if you are comparing them head-to-head.


explain how 40 year old jordan with 1 good knee managed to avg 20pt shooting .445% while playing with bunch of scrubs in this era.

[DatAsh]

You may be right, but I have long maintained that Kareem peaked in his second and third seasons. From that point on he was still obviously a great player for many years. IMHO, the real debate is/was which was his greater overall season, '71, in which he had a very good post-season, or '72, in which he hit a statistical peak, but was outplayed by both Thurmond and Wilt in the post-season (and only shot .437 overall.) His '71 season was also accomplished in only 40 mpg, instead of the 44 mpg that he had in '72. And he shot .577 from the field, too, in a league which shot .449...or a career high differential of .128.

And, of course, thanks to CavsFan, there is footage of an older Laker Wilt, in which he is blocking just about everything. Not only would Chamberlain hold both Ewing and Robinson way down, he would pretty much shut the lane down, too.

And Barry was near his prime in '72. You would have to watch footage of him to appreciate how good he was, but he was not only one of the greatest pure scorers of all-time, he was also an excellent passer and ball-handler.

And while West was slowing down, he was still a 25.8 ppg scorer who LED the NBA in apg in '72, and was First Team All-Defense, too. MJ would have the advantage, of course, but West would not have been cannon-fodder, either.

BTW, watch the footage of game seven of the '74 Finals on YouTube if you have time. You will be very impressed with the play of relative unknown Dave Cowens. And while he played center in his career, I think he was skilled and athletic enough to have been able to play the PF position, too. And combine that, with McAdoo's incredible scoring and shooting range, and the '92 edge at PF would not be sizeable at all.

Kareem did not peak by his second or third season:facepalm

[DatAsh]

'92 dream team would DESTROY the '72 dream team. It wouldn't even be close.

I think the 2012 "dream team" would beat the '92 dream team, but not as bad as the '92 team would beat the '72 team.

I think basketball evolved more from '72 to '92 than from '92 to '12.


People who say the '92 team would destroy the '12 team are out of their minds.

Players today all looked up to Jordan when he was playing and modeled their game after him. Look at players like Dwayne Wade making acrobatic shots and layups, LeBron doing the same, Kobe doing the same, etc.

Most players on the '92 dream team didn't have the pure talent and skill that many of the 2012 players have. Amazing plays that Jordan used to make are made all the time now in the NBA.

I mean, dunk contests are boring now because it's all been done before. Under the leg dunks don't even excite us anymore.

A lot of you won't admit it... but players now are just better than they were 20 years ago if you are comparing them head-to-head.

Good job staying on topic:applause:

[julizaver]

'92 dream team would DESTROY the '72 dream team. It wouldn't even be close.

I think the 2012 "dream team" would beat the '92 dream team, but not as bad as the '92 team would beat the '72 team.

I think basketball evolved more from '72 to '92 than from '92 to '12.


People who say the '92 team would destroy the '12 team are out of their minds.

Players today all looked up to Jordan when he was playing and modeled their game after him. Look at players like Dwayne Wade making acrobatic shots and layups, LeBron doing the same, Kobe doing the same, etc.

Most players on the '92 dream team didn't have the pure talent and skill that many of the 2012 players have. Amazing plays that Jordan used to make are made all the time now in the NBA.

I mean, dunk contests are boring now because it's all been done before. Under the leg dunks don't even excite us anymore.

A lot of you won't admit it... but players now are just better than they were 20 years ago if you are comparing them head-to-head.

Maybe you are gonna say that Kobe > Jordan, Dwight > Ewing and DRob, CP and DeronW > Magic and Stocton, Iguodala > Pippen ?


The only players that can stand on the floor with the original Dream team are Lebron , Durant and Kobe.

[julizaver]

that's a flawed logic. 92 ewing was a seasoned vet. no doubt ewing who became much better defensively would do a good job on neutralizing kareem especially when 4 other guys will provide a tremendous help D. i'm only giving the old timers a slight advantage.

lakers kareem wasn't the same player athletically. but he is one of those 'been there done that' vet with a great basketball IQ. he was a perfect fit for that team. he didn't have to do too much, didn't even have to waste so much energy on the D, and he was just so effective because even without athleticism, he can still shoot over anybody.

and don't count out drob, who was in his athletic prime with 4.5 block shots in 91-92. he would also stand toe to toe with great kareem & wilt. drob would be the most athletic of the 4 centers at this stage. kareem would be the most fluid player, but drob would have significant strength advantage.

I like DRob, but he is behind Hakeem in my list. What I want to say was that Ewing and Drob will not stop Jabbar based on certain facts, as I know that Frazier will not shut down MJ (no one could). In his prime Kareem was not less athletic than Drob.
For me 1972 team vs 1992 is more close than 1992 vs 2012.

[Asukal]

'92 dream team would DESTROY the '72 dream team. It wouldn't even be close.

I think the 2012 "dream team" would beat the '92 dream team, but not as bad as the '92 team would beat the '72 team.

I think basketball evolved more from '72 to '92 than from '92 to '12.


People who say the '92 team would destroy the '12 team are out of their minds.

Players today all looked up to Jordan when he was playing and modeled their game after him. Look at players like Dwayne Wade making acrobatic shots and layups, LeBron doing the same, Kobe doing the same, etc.

Most players on the '92 dream team didn't have the pure talent and skill that many of the 2012 players have. Amazing plays that Jordan used to make are made all the time now in the NBA.

I mean, dunk contests are boring now because it's all been done before. Under the leg dunks don't even excite us anymore.

A lot of you won't admit it... but players now are just better than they were 20 years ago if you are comparing them head-to-head.

First I was like :biggums:

then I was

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[bmd]

explain how 40 year old jordan with 1 good knee managed to avg 20pt shooting .445% while playing with bunch of scrubs in this era....first off, Jordan is the greatest player of all-time. Plus, that was still 10 years ago.

What made Jordan so good is that he was ahead of his time. You are talking about literally the best player of all time averaging 20 points at age 40 while on the Wizards.

He is the exception, not the rule.

[b0bab0i]

why even bother

jordan fans would pick the team with jordan on it even if it was

Smush parker
Michael Jordan
Luke Walton
brian cook
Kwame Brown

vs

the 92 dream team ( minus michael jordan )

i hate jordan fans... no objectivity... pure re*fuGGINtards

:roll: funny but true

[Owl]

I think I will go with this as the '72 12 man roster...

Dr. J
Barry
Cowens
McAdoo
Lucas
Havlicek
Frazier
Archibald
West
Goodrich
Wilt
Kareem

Cowens and McAdoo can probably play both the PF and Center positions, so no need for Gilmore, and their overall versatility is more valuable than what Issel would bring to the table. And, I suspect that they could at least minimize the '92 team's edge in rebounding at the PF position.

Of course, and once again, I would have replaced Bird with Rodman, and Laettner with either Shaq or Hakeem. And, because Wilt and Kareem would be listed at 7-2 and 7-3 respectively, and because Wilt was muich stronger than either Robinson or Ewing, I think I would have added a young (and more athletic) Shaq.

Frazier/Archibald/Goodrich
West/Havlicek/Goodrich
Erving/Havlicek/Barry
Cowens/McAdoo/Lucas
Jabbar/Chamberlain/Lucas

I like 72 in this matchup (certainly versus '92 Dream Team as was, would be tougher as you could replace old Bird and Laettner).

I would be tempted to have kept Gilmore and dumped Lucas. I know Gilmore doesn't add too much that the main other two centers don't already have, but his power is matched only by Wilt and by this point he was more willing/able to score.

Also I'd be tempted to take Oscar rather than Goodrich. Goodrich might have been (okay, was) the better player by that point, but Oscar's experience, leadership and passing would have been valuable on that team.

I think the '72 team might have an edge on defense in terms of depth.
6 elite defenders Jabbar, Chamberlain, Havlicek, West, Frazier and Cowens.

Erving was regarded as a good defender upon entering the NBA and put up very strong defensive stats in the ABA. Barry was a very good stealer albeit a gambler but he could do that on this team with the players behind him. McAdoo was a good shot blocker and also a ball hawk for a center. If he had to guard the center position he was overmatched but at the PF he could probably be effective (albeit Malone and Barkley would substantially outweigh him). And this is without my suggested (re)inclusion of Gilmore.

There are defensive terrors on the 92 team too, MJ, Pip, Robinson, Rodman if he were taken, Hakeem is you give them him (still not a US citzen at that point) and other good defenders (Ewing, Stockton maybe Drexler). But there also guys getting major minutes on the US team who are average to poor defenders e.g. Barkley, Magic. Even if you say Barkley could defend better if motivated and think Magic's increasing smarts made him a better defender in the second half of his career they could certainly be attackable links. Mullin was a defensive gambler like Barry but without being quite as good at it.

[jlauber]

Frazier/Archibald/Goodrich
West/Havlicek/Goodrich
Erving/Havlicek/Barry
Cowens/McAdoo/Lucas
Jabbar/Chamberlain/Lucas

I like 72 in this matchup (certainly versus '92 Dream Team as was, would be tougher as you could replace old Bird and Laettner).

I would be tempted to have kept Gilmore and dumped Lucas. I know Gilmore doesn't add too much that the main other two centers don't already have, but his power is matched only by Wilt and by this point he was more willing/able to score.

Also I'd be tempted to take Oscar rather than Goodrich. Goodrich might have been (okay, was) the better player by that point, but Oscar's experience, leadership and passing would have been valuable on that team.

I think the '72 team might have an edge on defense in terms of depth.
6 elite defenders Jabbar, Chamberlain, Havlicek, West, Frazier and Cowens.

Erving was regarded as a good defender upon entering the NBA and put up very strong defensive stats in the ABA. Barry was a very good stealer albeit a gambler but he could do that on this team with the players behind him. McAdoo was a good shot blocker and also a ball hawk for a center. If he had to guard the center position he was overmatched but at the PF he could probably be effective (albeit Malone and Barkley would substantially outweigh him). And this is without my suggested (re)inclusion of Gilmore.

There are defensive terrors on the 92 team too, MJ, Pip, Robinson, Rodman if he were taken, Hakeem is you give them him (still not a US citzen at that point) and other good defenders (Ewing, Stockton maybe Drexler). But there also guys getting major minutes on the US team who are average to poor defenders e.g. Barkley, Magic. Even if you say Barkley could defend better if motivated and think Magic's increasing smarts made him a better defender in the second half of his career they could certainly be attackable links. Mullin was a defensive gambler like Barry but without being quite as good at it.

THIS, and a few other's, have been EXACTLY the kind of responses that I was hoping for (instead of the mindless one's of that '92 team would slaughter the '72 team.)

As for Lucas-Gilmore. Gilmore was obviously the better player at this point in their careers. But, with Kareem and Wilt capable of playing 44+ mpg (actually closer to 48 if they had to), Gilmore would not really be needed. And Lucas was still a decent rebounder in '72 (13.1 rpg.) However, where he would be quite valuable was in the fact that he had 3pt range. I have mentioned it before, but I went to a Warrior-Knick game in the early 70's, and in the pre-game shoot-around, Lucas made something like 20 straight shots from between the circles.

I wouldn't have a problem replacing Goodrich with Oscar, but at that point in their careers, Goodrich was the better scorer and shooter. And with Frazier, West, and swingman Havlicek all excellent defenders, and with Archibald, Frazier, and West all exceptional passers, there would probably not be an urgency for a player like Oscar (albeit, as you said, his experience would be very valuable.)

Anyway, excellent post.

[Owl]

THIS, and a few other's, have been EXACTLY the kind of responses that I was hoping for (instead of the mindless one's of that '92 team would slaughter the '72 team.)

As for Lucas-Gilmore. Gilmore was obviously the better player at this point in their careers. But, with Kareem and Wilt capable of playing 44+ mpg (actually closer to 48 if they had to), Gilmore would not really be needed. And Lucas was still a decent rebounder in '72 (13.1 rpg.) However, where he would be quite valuable was in the fact that he had 3pt range. I have mentioned it before, but I went to a Warrior-Knick game in the early 70's, and in the pre-game shoot-around, Lucas made something like 20 straight shots from between the circles.

I wouldn't have a problem replacing Goodrich with Oscar, but at that point in their careers, Goodrich was the better scorer and shooter. And with Frazier, West, and swingman Havlicek all excellent defenders, and with Archibald, Frazier, and West all exceptional passers, there would probably not be an urgency for a player like Oscar (albeit, as you said, his experience would be very valuable.)

Anyway, excellent post.
I just think Oscar might be a leader on that team (as he was on the Bucks). I just think the 72 is full of some pretty big egos (Wilt, KAJ, West, Frazier, possibly McAdoo) and Oscar was, I think, considered the best non-center to have played up to that point and was confident and bossy enough to use that clout.

Like Gilmore I think Lucas is somewhat redundant. Cowens had range and rebounding but much closer to his peak, much better defender etc. McAdoo was a great shooter and good rebounder too. Maybe if you're playing with a 3 point line and not allowing the 70s players any theoretical time for adjustments to that line then being confindent Lucas had range beyond the 3 point line is an advantage but other than that I don't see too many advanatages so I can't see him getting too many minutes.
Maybe DeBusschere would fit in terms of giving rebounding, shooting, defense (clearly better than Lucas here) and being willing to play a role and is closer to his prime (and DeBusschere is often argued as superior to Lucas anyway). Again his range might not be quite as far as Lucas, but intangiables wise he's got substantial advantages.

One advantage the US team does have is that Robinson and Ewing are pretty good jump shooters taking Chamberlain and Jabbar away from the basket which I think you'd need to do.

[Math2]

72 in 6 games

[secund2nun]

92 wins in a massive beatdown. The older players were good for their TIME. Only a few players on that team would have been great had they played decades later.

Btw if Hakeem, Shaq etc played back in the 60s, 70s they would have averaged 20+ rpg.

[jlauber]

92 wins in a massive beatdown. The older players were good for their TIME. Only a few players on that team would have been great had they played decades later.

Btw if Hakeem, Shaq etc played back in the 60s, 70s they would have averaged 20+ rpg.

So Hakeem and Shaq would have averaged 20 rpg in the 70's...when no one else was doing so (except Chamberlain in the post-season)?

As for the 60's, yes, if Hakeem and Shaq played 45+ mpg, they likely would have approached the 20 rpg barrier. And conversely, put players like Jerry Lucas in the past couple of seasons, and he likely would have been among the leaders. Lucas was a full 6-8, and with as much range as Kevin Love, and in his best seasons, his numbers translate to about 14-15 rpg in 2011. And yes, the 6-5 Baylor's numbers translate to about 13 rpg at his peak. Which is slightly less than a peak 6-5 Charles Barkley had.

[jlauber]

I just think Oscar might be a leader on that team (as he was on the Bucks). I just think the 72 is full of some pretty big egos (Wilt, KAJ, West, Frazier, possibly McAdoo) and Oscar was, I think, considered the best non-center to have played up to that point and was confident and bossy enough to use that clout.

Like Gilmore I think Lucas is somewhat redundant. Cowens had range and rebounding but much closer to his peak, much better defender etc. McAdoo was a great shooter and good rebounder too. Maybe if you're playing with a 3 point line and not allowing the 70s players any theoretical time for adjustments to that line then being confindent Lucas had range beyond the 3 point line is an advantage but other than that I don't see too many advanatages so I can't see him getting too many minutes.
Maybe DeBusschere would fit in terms of giving rebounding, shooting, defense (clearly better than Lucas here) and being willing to play a role and is closer to his prime (and DeBusschere is often argued as superior to Lucas anyway). Again his range might not be quite as far as Lucas, but intangiables wise he's got substantial advantages.

One advantage the US team does have is that Robinson and Ewing are pretty good jump shooters taking Chamberlain and Jabbar away from the basket which I think you'd need to do.

Excellent post. McAdoo had about 20 ft range (and Cowens was close), but as you said, had they been given time to adjust, I suspect that they could have adapted to a 3pt line. McAdoo, at past his peak, actually shot 3-24 from the 3pt line, but here again, it was certainly not the norm for him to even take those shots.

Rick Barry actually shot a decent amount of 3pters in the ABA, and then again in his last season in the NBA. In fact, I believe he had the NBA single game record of 8 for a while. Barry was a good, but not a great shooter. Instead, he was an exceptional scorer. He was an excellent ball-handler (and passer), and like Kobe, he could get his shot anytime he wanted to.

Now Lucas would have had 3pt range right out of the box. IMHO, he easily had 25 ft. range. Very few here probably know who Jon McGlocklin was, but IMHO, he and Lucas were the two premier long range shooters of the NBA in the early 70's. And had the NBA adopted the ABA's 3pt line, I have no doubt that those two would have been among the leaders.

As for Gilmore...I mentioned it earlier, but I honestly believe that Kareem and Wilt, both of whom were very good passers, could have played some kind of double low-post offense. So, perhaps they might have needed a Gilmore for short breathers (not that they would have been playing anywhere near 40 mpg at the same time with that loaded roster.) The problem with using Kareem and Wilt at the same time, would be on the defensive end. Kareem was actually a very good athlete, and I believe he could have shadowed whoever the '92 team would have inserted at the PF position. (Of course, a younger Chamberlain could have easily have done that.)

And with Olympic rules, if need be, the '72 team could have employed a type of zone, at least with Wilt and Kareem on the floor at the same time.

Speed? Kareem at that time was very fast. I can't recall the exact storyline, but I believe he outran the entire Packer team in the 440 in a pre-season workout. Archibald and Dr. J could cover the floor in short order. And I vividly remember that Laker fastbreak of '72...Goodrich was among the quickest players in the league. So, while the '92 team might have an edge, it would not be dramatic.

As constituted (or with your choices of Oscar and Artis), I think the '72 team might have been better. However, replace Laettner and Bird with Shaq and Rodman, and I would probably give them a slight edge. In any case, it could perhaps be the most "mythical" basketball matchup of all-time.

[StarJordan]

Wilt will get posterized.

[gigantes]

just noticed this thread and just glanced at the 72 roster, and... it's truly frightening. any pro player who knows their history would probably quake a little bit about the prospect of going up against such a murderer's row. OTOH, the 92 team (with the shaq and rodman substitutions) might have certain advantages:


- when it comes to sports, the technique, the talent pool, the coaching and the technology advances every year, and in modern times, all those things have been accelerating, just like the rest of civilisation. in simple terms, the average player today is much better and more advanced than the one 20 years ago, and that extends all down the line. the one 20 years ago is also much better than the one 40 years ago. repeat. big names are big names, but this is a sizeable real-world advantage.

- the '92 team had michael jordan, one of the greatest psychopaths in the history of sports. specifically, a guy with such relentless inner demons that he felt that he absolutely had to win every single thing he competed in, from casual dice to big-stakes gambling or sports events, at any cost necessary. he had absolutely zero professionalism, decency and goodwill as an athlete, and if an opposing player didn't give him a reason to hate him, jordan would manufacture one. but even as i put jordan down so harshly, i'm also asking the question- who did the 72 team have that could come close to matching jordan's machiavelian nature? AFAIK, nobody.

- magic. was there ever a '72 player like magic? the tallest PG in history who had a forceful personality, could play every position, and who made scoring incredibly easy for his team?