Shaquille O'Neals impact on the Miami Heat

[BEAST Griffin]

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/8/25/its-all-about-the-ws-shaquille-oneal.html

[quote]Miami Heat (

[no pun intended]

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/8/25/its-all-about-the-ws-shaquille-oneal.html



aging Shaquille O'Neal the most important player on the Miami Heat?

:kobe:
I've been saying this for a long time. And I still believe he was the most important player on the Miami Heat. There's always talks about how Kobe rode on Shaq's tail to win championships but none about Wade. Sure, Wade excelled in the finals, but he still couldn't have done it with a player like Shaq. To be honest, any argument about a player not being able to do it with someone is inane. Just know that Shaq was a huge factor to the Heat.

[MetsPackers]

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/8/25/its-all-about-the-ws-shaquille-oneal.html



aging Shaquille O'Neal the most important player on the Miami Heat?

:kobe:

If I remember correctly, he was second in MVP voting the year they won the championship

:kobe:

[Jacks3]

lol get real. Wade was much better in 06.

[Ketchup]

If I remember correctly, he was second in MVP voting the year they won the championship

:kobe:

You have a terrible memory then since he wasn't in the top 10 as far as voting went. Wade on the other hand was.

[Hank]

I've been saying this for a long time. And I still believe he was the most important player on the Miami Heat. There's always talks about how Kobe rode on Shaq's tail to win championships but none about Wade. Sure, Wade excelled in the finals, but he still couldn't have done it with a player like Shaq. To be honest, any argument about a player not being able to do it with someone is inane. Just know that Shaq was a huge factor to the Heat.

#1) Shaq played 10 minutes less per game in Miami because he was already breaking down and had multiple injuries (partly why the Lakers traded him).. and 2) Shaq was injured and out in multiple playoff series and Wade got it done. Here's a reminder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcmgy89_DNs

and here's another reminder:


Playoff PER on title runs

1996 Bulls
Jordan---------26.7
Pippen---------19.4

1998 Bulls
Jordan---------28.1
Pippen---------19.5

2000 Lakers
Shaq-----------30.5
Kobe------------19.3

2001 Lakers
Shaq------------29.7
Kobe------------23.8

2002 Lakers
Shaq------------28.3
Kobe-------------20.5

2006 Heat
Wade------------28.4
Shaq-------------19.8

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

:bowdown:

[jlip]

If I remember correctly, he was second in MVP voting the year they won the championship

:kobe:

That was '05 the season before.

I wish I could find the direct quote, but on many occasions since the '12 title, Wade has admitted that winning that 1st title was very easy and that it was basically handed to him in comparison to this one. Obviously the presence of Shaq would be a big factor. Also if memory serves me correctly for the first 3 rounds of the '06 playoff Shaq was avg. something like ~20/9.

[Hank]

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjKej92KcQs

/thread

[Deuce Bigalow]

#1) Shaq played 10 minutes less per game in Miami because he was already breaking down and had multiple injuries (partly why the Lakers traded him).. and 2) Shaq was injured and out in multiple playoff series and Wade got it done. Here's a reminder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcmgy89_DNs

and here's another reminder:


Playoff PER on title runs

1996 Bulls
Jordan---------26.7
Pippen---------19.4

1998 Bulls
Jordan---------28.1
Pippen---------19.5

2000 Lakers
Shaq-----------30.5
Kobe------------19.3

2001 Lakers
Shaq------------29.7
Kobe------------23.8

2002 Lakers
Shaq------------28.3
Kobe-------------20.5

2006 Heat
Wade------------28.4
Shaq-------------19.8


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/frewfgg-1.png

http://i.imm.io/xcrG.png

[WockaVodka]

If I remember correctly, he was second in MVP voting the year they won the championship

:kobe:
Wade was top 6 in the MVP voting, I don't believe Shaq even had a vote.

Wade was better but Shaq was more important at least after 2005.

[Hank]

Kobe the stringbean got TROUNCED in the 2004 Finals vs the Pistons vaunted #1 defense and played like total SH!T.. what did he shoot ? 37% for the series or something ? And Detroit creamed the LA Fakers 4 games to 1 and winning their games by an average of 12 points.

The very next season in the the 2005 ECF against those same Pistons and their amazing #1 ranked defense, Wade was a beast shooting 64% for the series and led the team in all areas. The Heat would have easily won the title that year as they matched up well vs the Spurs. Up 3 games to 2 vs Detroit Wade unfortunately got hurt at that point and the Pistons rolled in the final 2 games..

and hell, even Shaq will state he was playing at 40% that year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSoPh7k4lb0

And Wade won playoff series with Shaq hurt and on the bench.

In the 2006 ECF Wade again decimated that Pistons #1 ranked D (and the pistons had a franchise record for wins that year).. and Wade did it with Shaq playing 10 less minutes per game compared to his minutes in LA (as Shaq was not close to the same as he was in LA)

you kobe stans trying to donwplay Wade's dominance those years are hilarious !!

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe the stringbean got TROUNCED in the 2004 Finals vs the Pistons vaunted #1 defense and played like total SH!T.. what did he shoot ? 37% for the series or something ? And Detroit creamed the LA Fakers 4 games to 1 and winning their games by an average of 12 points.

The very next season in the the 2005 ECF against those same Pistons and their amazing #1 ranked defense, Wade was a beast shooting 64% for the series and led the team in all areas. The Heat would have easily won the title that year as they matched up well vs the Spurs. Up 3 games to 2 vs Detroit Wade unfortunately got hurt at that point and the Pistons rolled in the final 2 games..

and hell, even Shaq will state he was playing at 40% that year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSoPh7k4lb0

And Wade won playoff series with Shaq hurt and on the bench.

In the 2006 ECF Wade again decimated that Pistons #1 ranked D (and the pistons had a franchise record for wins that year).. and Wade did it with Shaq playing 10 less minutes per game compared to his minutes in LA (as Shaq was not close to the same as he was in LA)

you kobe stans trying to donwplay Wade's dominance those years are hilarious !!
You downplay Kobe's entire career

Let me guess...You think Wade > Kobe all-time, right?

[Hank]

You downplay Kobe's entire career

Let me guess...You think Wade > Kobe all-time, right?

I don't start threads on it though. The fact you guys do and as a result have been TOTALLY schooled after the fact shows how insecure you are.

[stallionaire]

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/frewfgg-1.png

http://i.imm.io/xcrG.png

are you really trying to say what Gasol did a few years ago wasn't elite? Why is it blasphemous to say Gasol had better years than Stock? Get bent, fake Lakers fan.

[Hank]

Kobe the stringbean got TROUNCED in the 2004 Finals vs the Pistons vaunted #1 defense and played like total SH!T.. what did he shoot ? 37% for the series or something ? And Detroit creamed the LA Fakers 4 games to 1 and winning their games by an average of 12 points.

The very next season in the the 2005 ECF against those same Pistons and their amazing #1 ranked defense, Wade was a beast shooting 64% for the series and led the team in all areas. The Heat would have easily won the title that year as they matched up well vs the Spurs. Up 3 games to 2 vs Detroit Wade unfortunately got hurt at that point and the Pistons rolled in the final 2 games..

and hell, even Shaq will state he was playing at 40% that year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSoPh7k4lb0

And Wade won playoff series with Shaq hurt and on the bench.

In the 2006 ECF Wade again decimated that Pistons #1 ranked D (and the pistons had a franchise record for wins that year).. and Wade did it with Shaq playing 10 less minutes per game compared to his minutes in LA (as Shaq was not close to the same as he was in LA)

you kobe stans trying to donwplay Wade's dominance those years are hilarious !!

Actually Wade shot 49% in the 05 ECF vs Detroit's #1 ranked D (compared to Kobe's very poor 36% in the Finals the year before against the same D).. And wade shot a whopping crazy 64% against Detroit's #1 ranked D in the 2006 ECF (the same year the Pistons had a franchise record for wins)

and here's a small snippet of Wade total dominance vs that #1 ranked D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lS7663Vzw

^ enjoy.... not only did Wade lead the team statistically in just about every area in the series, but 64 f*cking percent !!! ;-)

.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I don't start threads on it though. The fact you guys do and as a result have been TOTALLY schooled after the fact shows how insecure you are.
Answer the question Hanky

[Deuce Bigalow]

are you really trying to say what Gasol did a few years ago wasn't elite? Why is it blasphemous to say Gasol had better years than Stock? Get bent, fake Lakers fan.
Define elite, bandwagon fan

[no pun intended]

You downplay Kobe's entire career

Let me guess...You think Wade > Kobe all-time, right?

Nope. Lakers are done. Caput, Finished. the Heat are claiming all the titles in the foreseeable future with Lebron Wade Bosh Allen and our elite D and all our sharpshooters
Yeah, he probably does think so.

[Raz]

Playoff PER on title runs

1996 Bulls
Jordan---------26.7
Pippen---------19.4

1998 Bulls
Jordan---------28.1
Pippen---------19.5

2000 Lakers
Shaq-----------30.5
Kobe------------19.3

2001 Lakers
Shaq------------29.7
Kobe------------23.8

2002 Lakers
Shaq------------28.3
Kobe-------------20.5

2006 Heat
Wade------------28.4
Shaq-------------19.8




You're using PER? PER???

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufzip1.png
http://i47.tinypic.com/i51wr8.pnghttp://i45.tinypic.com/16hmg5j.png

Go look at James Worthy's PER (cracked over 20 PER once), Joe Dumars (never cracked 20), Scottie Pippen's PER, and many more. Bill Russell's PER was over 20 for his first 4 seasons, and after that, never again. PER doesn't mean jack shit.

Eat it Heat fan. We're gonna beat your asses this year as well.

[Ne 1]

Actually Wade shot 49% in the 05 ECF vs Detroit's #1 ranked D (compared to Kobe's very poor 36% in the Finals the year before against the same D).. And wade shot a whopping crazy 64% against Detroit's #1 ranked D in the 2006 ECF (the same year the Pistons had a franchise record for wins)

and here's a small snippet of Wade total dominance vs that #1 ranked D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lS7663Vzw

^ enjoy.... not only did Wade lead the team statistically in just about every area in the series, but 64 f*cking percent !!! ;-)

.


2004 Pistons DRtg: 95.4
2005 Pistons DRtg: 101.2
2006 Pistons DRtg: 103.1

Were the Pistons the same because it still says 'Detroit' across the front of their jerseys? :oldlol:

Kobe averaged 40 pts against the 2006 pistons!

[Hank]

Kobe averaged 40 pts against the 2006 pistons!

In the first one Kobe had 39 pts on 12-28 shooting. And the Pistons won by double-digits and pulled their starters in the 2nd half when they were up by 25 points. That's when Kobe padded his total when Detroits starters were on the bench. That game is on youtube chump. lol nice try loser :oldlol:

In the 2nd one the Pistons had some nagging injuries and were in a losing spin. Lost game before and also lost to the Wizards by 18 points soon after. Also Lost to Denver by 11 on that same west coast road trip. etc

of course Kobe shot "UNDER" 50% combined in those games.. nowhere close to 64%. Kobe has never had playoff series and impact like Wade has had against top competition. And not just FG% but Wade killed him in all around game on the statboard

And of course, Wade ALWAYS outperformed Kobe when they had the similar supporting casts. ALL 4 times in their careers when they've had similar supporting casts Wade >>> Kobe. ALL 4 times Wade greatly outperformed the stringbean Bryant


:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[Hank]

Go look at James Worthy's PER (cracked over 20 PER once), Joe Dumars (never cracked 20), Scottie Pippen's PER, and many more..

and I agree with em all. Worthy was a 3rd wheel. Dumars wasn't all that great (please kid), and Pippen is right where he should be. Wade was to Shaq like Jordan was to Pippen, And Shaq in LA was to Kobe like Jordan was to Pippen

lol marbury Dennis johnson et al. these are the same players you put down in other threads :applause:

[Freedom Kid7]

Wade >>> Kobe
:biggums: . Are you serious?

Anyways, Shaq played a vital role to that Heat squad. Despite what people say, the reason that Wade got all those open looks was due to Shaq causing a double team and thus Wade had to shoot. When Shaq left, defense smothered Wade and he couldn't produce/win as well as he once did until Bron showed up.

[Hank]

:biggums: . Are you serious?

Anyways, Shaq played a vital role to that Heat squad. Despite what people say, the reason that Wade got all those open looks was due to Shaq causing a double team and thus Wade had to shoot. When Shaq left, defense smothered Wade and he couldn't produce/win as well as he once did until Bron showed up.

lol Wade was injured in 07.. In 2009 Wade had a better all around season than Kobe ever did. He put up "all-around" stat boards that Kobe cannot and never did accomplish. Because he's wasn't the all-around player Wade was.

and lol at the rest. Give Wade a Prime Shaq for 8 years and Wade wins more than just 3 titles. Hell, if Wade didn't get injured in the 2005 ECF when the Heat were up 3-2, Wade and the Heat would've had 2 titles in 2 years (and with a BROKEN down injury-riddled Shaq playing 10 minutes LESS per game in Miami)

the only thing Kobe stans can say is Kobe's ability to stay healthy. This I most certainly give them. But peak at their best Wade over Kobe all day evry day... it's no wonder Wade greatly outperformed Kobe whenever they've had similar supporting casts vs same competition. ALL 4 times. Because Wade was in fact, better

[Hank]

Despite what people say, the reason that Wade got all those open looks was due to Shaq causing a double team and thus Wade had to shoot.

He played 10 minutes LESS per game in Miami compared to LA. And all those open looks you state allowed Kobe to shoot 36% against them :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

[Freedom Kid7]

lol Wade was injured in 07.. In 2009 Wade had a better all around season than Kobe ever did. He put up "all-around" stat boards that Kobe cannot and never did accomplish. Because he's wasn't the all-around player Wade was.
I agree with you that Wade's '09 season was pretty damn incredible and I get why you think it was better than Kobe's best statistical season, because in all fairness, it probably was. To be fair though, Kobe's best seasons statistically in 05 (28/6/6) and in 06 (35/5/5) are nothing to scoff at. Did he have piss poor shooting %? Yeah, but he had crummy teammates and he went against a superior western conference. Sometimes though, you don't look at the damned stat sheet. I mean, I'd take '09 Kobe over '09 Wade because Kobe finally matured and became a better team mate. He rocked 'dem playoffs and allowed for Gasol to be what he needed to be. He also shot .458 in the '09 playoffs, more than Wade's .447. Wade sucked ass in the playoffs in '09. He lost to perennial underachieving Atlanta and had a game where he shot for 9/26.

and lol at the rest. Give Wade a Prime Shaq for 8 years and Wade wins more than just 3 titles. Hell, if Wade didn't get injured in the 2005 ECF when the Heat were up 3-2, Wade and the Heat would've had 2 titles in 2 years (and with a BROKEN down injury-riddled Shaq playing 10 minutes LESS per game in Miami)
:biggums: . Duncan would have outdone injury Shaq and the Parker/Ginobili duo would have done very well against Wade/Williams. As for Wade replacing Kobe in the three peat, I think nothing changes. '03 Spurs still would have beat Shaq and whatever hero SG played alongside him. The elder Pistons gave Wade a harder time when they were a worse defensive team, I'm fairly certain they would've done what they did to Kobe in '04 if Wade took their spot. Also, you make it sound like if Shaq was in his prime and Wade was in his prime Wade would be the go to guy. That's just crazy. Shaq was an obese wrecking boulder in his prime and could mow down anything. Wade in his prime was an exceptional driver who had good guard skills with a slightly improved jumpshot. I'm taking the obese wrecking boulder

the only thing Kobe stans can say is Kobe's ability to stay healthy. This I most certainly give them. But peak at their best Wade over Kobe all day evry day... it's no wonder Wade greatly outperformed Kobe whenever they've had similar supporting casts vs same competition. ALL 4 times. Because Wade was in fact, better
I understand you're belief that '09 Wade>Any version of Kobe. I get that and I won't argue with you. I disagree, but '09 Wade was a beast. The thing to me about Wade though is his prime/peak was so damn short. Part of it's injuries, which are unfortunate. Similar supporting casts? Same competition? Better results? Really? With Wade's spectacular season, the Heat were just two games above .500. And that was when the East was not all that strong. Part of it was due to Wade not having that good of a starting cast. However, in Kobe's '06 season, they had more wins then the heat did. And they had harder competition. And Kobe's teammates were worse. Also, Kobe's worst season record wise was '05 and the Lakers had a bit more than 30 wins. In Wade's worst season record wise, they had 15 Goddamn wins. 15. They were even 10 - 41 WITH WADE. That's pretty damn bad there.
Agree to disagree Mr. Hank. As I mentioned to Jlaubber as well, stats aren't always the best indicator.

[Freedom Kid7]

He played 10 minutes LESS per game in Miami compared to LA. And all those open looks you state allowed Kobe to shoot 36% against them :oldlol:
He still played 33 minutes. That's more than half the game, and that still allows Wade to be more open. That, and as someone pointed out, the defensive rating of the Pistons was much better in '04 (plus Kobe was well established as a star and Wade was just coming out) so they could get Kobe to struggle as well.

[Doctor Rivers]

http://www.behindthebasket.com/btb/2011/8/25/its-all-about-the-ws-shaquille-oneal.html



aging Shaquille O'Neal the most important player on the Miami Heat?

:kobe:

LeBron > Shaq

[SilkkTheShocker]

Actually Wade shot 49% in the 05 ECF vs Detroit's #1 ranked D (compared to Kobe's very poor 36% in the Finals the year before against the same D).. And wade shot a whopping crazy 64% against Detroit's #1 ranked D in the 2006 ECF (the same year the Pistons had a franchise record for wins)

and here's a small snippet of Wade total dominance vs that #1 ranked D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lS7663Vzw

^ enjoy.... not only did Wade lead the team statistically in just about every area in the series, but 64 f*cking percent !!! ;-)

.


Thats one of my favorite highlight videos on youtube. Open Fire goes so well with Wade's run against the Pistons :cheers:

[DaSeba5]

Actually Wade shot 49% in the 05 ECF vs Detroit's #1 ranked D (compared to Kobe's very poor 36% in the Finals the year before against the same D).. And wade shot a whopping crazy 64% against Detroit's #1 ranked D in the 2006 ECF (the same year the Pistons had a franchise record for wins)

and here's a small snippet of Wade total dominance vs that #1 ranked D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lS7663Vzw

^ enjoy.... not only did Wade lead the team statistically in just about every area in the series, but 64 f*cking percent !!! ;-)

.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Freedom Kid7]

Actually Wade shot 49% in the 05 ECF vs Detroit's #1 ranked D (compared to Kobe's very poor 36% in the Finals the year before against the same D).. And wade shot a whopping crazy 64% against Detroit's #1 ranked D in the 2006 ECF (the same year the Pistons had a franchise record for wins)

and here's a small snippet of Wade total dominance vs that #1 ranked D...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__lS7663Vzw

^ enjoy.... not only did Wade lead the team statistically in just about every area in the series, but 64 f*cking percent !!! ;-)

.
Not too bad of a mix there.

[Hank]

Yes we all know who the man was in Miami,, "Dwyane Wade and Miami"


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/wadecov4.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/wadecov1.jpg


And we all know who the man was in LA, "Shaq and the Lakers"


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/0604_large.jpg

[Freedom Kid7]

Yes we all know who the man was in Miami,, "Dwyane Wade and Miami"


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/wadecov4.jpg

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/wadecov1.jpg


And we all know who the man was in LA, "Shaq and the Lakers"


http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd123/pro--sports/0604_large.jpg
I can't believe I'm about to agree with you, but Wade was the man in Miami in '06. He had good role players too. Shaq, Zo, etc. I didn't like how certain games were ref'd in dem finals, but whatever. You can make a case for the reffing both ways.
Also, at least give me some sort of response to my post Mr. Hank.

[Hank]

I can't believe I'm about to agree with you, but Wade was the man in Miami in '06. He had good role players too. Shaq, Zo, etc. I didn't like how certain games were ref'd in dem finals.

Not too bad of a mix there.

Wade in 2005.

Game 2-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjKej92KcQs

Wade's Game 3- Shaq admits he was playing at just 40% in an interview here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSoPh7k4lb0

Wade playing without Shaq and on the bench sweeping a series- DOMINATING all over the court

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcmgy89_DNs

and there's tons more on youtube of Wade during those 2 playoff runs. It's all there, just refresh your memory. The bottomline is we haven't seen a guard enter the league and play at such a "polished" high level with an all-around game (so soon) since Jordan. From his high efficiency, and his scoring in a WIDE variety of ways, to use of both hands in all directions, his explosiveness, quickness, balance, power, great defense, his steals, blocks, his vision, his superb "timing",,,, and there's so many more attributes that prove we haven't witnessed a guard enter the league with such a superb and "polished" all-around game since Michael Jordan. Dwyane Wade was incredible

..

[Freedom Kid7]

Wade in 2005.

Game 2-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjKej92KcQs

Wade's Game 3- Shaq admits he was playing at just 40% in an interview here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSoPh7k4lb0

Wade playing without Shaq and on the bench sweeping a series- DOMINATING all over the court

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lcmgy89_DNs

and there's tons more on youtube of Wade during those 2 playoff runs,
Meant the other post, but you know, I ain't mad. Solid links :applause:

[Hank]

Thats one of my favorite highlight videos on youtube. Open Fire goes so well with Wade's run against the Pistons :cheers:

This is one is likely my favorite Wade video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p52I1Oy-7M

^ all pre-2007 ;-)

I just think alot of people missed how amazing Wade was, as he was hidden somewhat in Miami. In a big market like LA, NY, or chicago, it would have been an entirely different story. But his game doesnt lie

[Raz]

and I agree with em all. Worthy was a 3rd wheel. Dumars wasn't all that great (please kid), and Pippen is right where he should be. Wade was to Shaq like Jordan was to Pippen, And Shaq in LA was to Kobe like Jordan was to Pippen

Says who? You? Look beyond stats - watch games.



lol marbury Dennis johnson et al. these are the same players you put down in other threads :applause:

I put them down? Nope. Is Marbury better than Isiah Thomas? Tell me that dicksmack.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Wade did surpass Shaq as a player by their second year together when they won a title, but Shaq was still making a huge impact on the court.

Miami was only 10-13 without Shaq in '06, 10-11 when Wade played, and that was with an excellent back up, Alonzo Mourning to fill in. Mourning averaged 12/9 with 4 blocks per game as a starter, yet that was the difference between even '06 Shaq a very good center since Miami went 42-17 and won a title with Shaq.

Interesting to note that Wade shot only 44.7% in 21 games without Shaq in '06, and 51.6% in 54 games with him.

That's because Shaq was still a huge mismatch for most teams. A few more were trying to guard him 1 on 1 by that point than in his prime, but he'd usually have big games vs single coverage.

From the '04-'05 season


"Everyone is focused on him," Wade said. "I've never seen anyone get the attention he does. When Shaq's on the floor, thing open up for me. It's been a little easier for me to pick and choose my spots. The attention that he draws makes things a lot easier when he's on the floor."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&id=1915767

Detroit still had one of the better defensive frontcourts in the league, but they guarded Shaq 1 on 1 most of the series, and he averaged 22/11 with 2.3 bpg on 66% shooting, and closed out the series with a 28/16 game with 5 blocks on 12/14 shooting with Wade limited by flu-like symptoms.

That probably contributed to Avery Johnson doubling Shaq constantly in the finals, often on the catch, which is one thing people forget about Shaq's finals series, even though it was quiet. Wade carried the team, but Shaq being the primary focus of the Mavs defense may have helped this happen.

The Detroit series was one of 2 series that year where I'd say their impact was comparable. The other was Wade's worst series vs the Bulls when Shaq had big games like 27/16 with 5 blocks on 11/16 shooting in game 1 and 30/20 with 5 assists and 2 blocks to close out the series for averages of 20/11/2, 2.2 bpg, 61%.

And Shaq leading Miami to a 16-7 record without Wade even in '07 does show that his impact went well beyond numbers even at that point since that cast was pretty old, and not looking very good all year.

Chuck Daly from the '06 playoffs.....

[QUOTE=Chuck Daly]"It's amusing to me," Hall of Fame coach Chuck Daly said, adding that O'Neal remains one of the top five players in the league regardless of his stats. "Every night, people are playing him with two, 2

[Owl]

To the general point, Shaq and Wade were clearly both very important to Miami with Wade being a bit more important. That gap got bigger in the playoffs



You're using PER? PER???

http://i49.tinypic.com/2ufzip1.png
http://i47.tinypic.com/i51wr8.pnghttp://i45.tinypic.com/16hmg5j.png

Go look at James Worthy's PER (cracked over 20 PER once), Joe Dumars (never cracked 20), Scottie Pippen's PER, and many more. Bill Russell's PER was over 20 for his first 4 seasons, and after that, never again. PER doesn't mean jack shit.

Eat it Heat fan. We're gonna beat your asses this year as well.
Worthy was a 2 time All-NBA 3rd team player i.e. he was very good (7x All-Star), but not great. His PER reflects that. At the appex of his a career he raised his game in the playoffs. His playoff PERs reflect that.

The other numbers are for strong defensive players which most PER advocates and it's creator aknowledge it doesn't cover. This doesn't mean that "PER doesn't mean shit", it just means that you have to take additional factors into account. So in this argument you could choose to argue that Shaq was a better defender than Wade, that Shaq was better in the locker room, that Shaq double teams got Wade open shots or that shot blockers stayed away from Wade because they had to stay at home on Shaq. Some of those arguments would be more persuasive than others.

Similarly for the pictured players DJ and Isiah are substantially past their prime, and are taking on smaller roles than they had earlier in their career. You compare that with a season in which Marbury had his best performance over a full season in fg%, 3 point%, ft%, lowest turnovers plus near peak seasons in scoring, getting to the line and steals and it's going to say he had good season. He did. Obviously it overrates him because he was a poor defender and a negative influence in the locker room (at least throughout most of his career), but you'd weigh that in if he was the subject of this comparision.

I don't think the weightings in PER are perfect (I think it marginally overvalues gunners) but used sensibly theres nothing wrong with it.

[Round Mound]

are you really trying to say what Gasol did a few years ago wasn't elite? Why is it blasphemous to say Gasol had better years than Stock? Get bent, fake Lakers fan.

:applause:

[magnax1]

Wade was clearly better then Shaq every year but 05, and by the end of the 05 season and beggining of the 05 playoffs Wade was every bit as good as Shaq. They were both elite players in 05 and 06 anyway, but Wade's impact was quite a bit larger then Shaq's throughout their whole run in Miami.