Moses Malone's 1981-1982 season

[ShaqAttack3234]

I looked into this season a while ago, and have been meaning to make a thread about it, but forgot until the last few days, so now is as good of a time as any.

He didn't win the title this year like he did in '83, but this has a strong case for being his best season. The individual feats are just astonishing.

I'll start with the final 2 games in January. Entering these games, the Rockets were a mediocre 19-22, but they won both games with Moses scoring 33 in the first game and in the second game, he had 32 points, 20 rebounds, 2 assists and 4 blocks on 12/18 from the floor and 7/10 from the line in 41 minutes. This would start an 8 game winning streak, a stretch where Houston went 13-2, a streak of 13 consecutive 30+ point games, a stretch of 30+ in 19 out of 20 games, and lead into a month of February which would make these 2 late January wins look quiet.

Moses opened up the month of February with 53 points(19 in the 4th quarter), 23 rebounds(11 of them were offensive boards), 4 assists and 1 block on 19/30 from the floor and 15/18 from the line.

That was just the first of 3 consecutive 40 point games. He followed it up with 45 points and 20 rebounds and then had 47 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists and 2 blocks on 18/28 from the floor and 11/15 from the line.

Here's what Del Harris had to say following these 3 games.


"If there's anybody playing any better in the NBA right now ... well, there just isn't," said Houston Coach Del Harris. "And the thing of it is, he's getting his points off the flow. He's getting them within the framework of our offense, plus the fact he's averaging about 10 points a game off his own hard work on the offensive boards."

Then Moses had a nice 33 point game before he continued with the legendary performances. His next game was a 38 point, 32 rebound game vs the Sonics, he broke his own record with 21 offensive rebounds, a record that still stands 30 years later, and this was the last 30/30 game until Kevin Love did it in the 2010-2011 season.

Moses outrebounded the entire Sonics team by himself, and Lenny Wilkens had this to say.


"Moses was really controlling the boards," said Seattle Coach Lenny Wilkens. "Bob Pettit and Bill Russell were two of the best (rebounders) that I ever saw. Moses compares very favorably."

Moses finally offered his 2 cents as well.


"I had stretches like this in high school, but never in pro ball," Malone said, "My body feels so good right now. I stay in shape. I'm losing pounds. The main thing is I'm getting rest."

After a few more 30+ games, one of them in Houston's first loss in more than 3 weeks, Moses had 44 points and 16 rebounds vs the Cavs. Followed by a few more "ordinary" 30+ games, Moses had 34/21 vs Dallas, then he was finally held under 30 with 23 points and 9 rebounds on 8/17 shooting show that he was normal, but the Rockets still beat Denver ever.

However, he'd end February with 43 points and 23 rebounds, and 44 points. Unfortunately, this game didn't end so well as Moses was held to just 2 points in the 4th, missed the potential game-winner in regulation and was held to just 2 points in overtime.

He'd add another 40+ game with 43 points on his first game in March, 14 of his points in the 4th quarter, although Houston would lose this game too.

Overall, Moses averaged 38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg in the month of February. he had at least 30 points in 13 of the 14 games, scored 40+ 6 times that month and had at least 20 rebounds 6 times that month. He led Houston to an 11-3 record and to nobody's surprise was voted player of the month for February.

But this was not the end of Malone's dominance. After starting off March with the aforementioned 43 point game for a second streak of 3 40+ games in a row in about a month, he continued dropping 30+ including 38/12 with 3 blocks on 16/26 from the floor and 6/6 from the line while playing all 48 minutes, he then came through in the clutch the next game. He had 39 points and 18 rebounds including the offensive rebound and game-winner with 4 seconds remaining to beat the Suns by 2.

He was then held under 30 for just the second time in 21 games with 28 and he shot just 10/28, and followed it up with a 26 point game, which may have made people think he was cooling off. Not the case. He responded with 49 points and 12 rebounds while scoring 22 in the 4th quarter to beat the Blazers, then he was relatively quiet with games of 24 and 19 points, respectively, but responded with 39 points and 17 rebounds vs Kareem's Lakers, though Kareem sat out the second half with a sprained ankle.


"People have always said 'As Moses Malone goes, so go the Rockets.' Well, I wish that were true because if that were the case we would have finished 75-7 last season. He plays that well every night."

Moses transitioned into his next outstanding performance with 31 points in between. He duplicated his outstanding performance from about a week and a half earlier vs Portland when he had 41 points and 18 rebounds as well as a 12 point 4th quarter to beat Portland again. He followed this up with 46 points vs the Sonics to continue his dominance of both these Northwest teams. he had a 38/20 game vs the Mavs sandwiched between 29/17 and 35/15 games vs the Warriors, the latter being on April 1st. He had a relatively quiet 21/15 game in a win vs the Spurs to lead into another monster game vs Kareem and the Lakers. Moses had 37 points and 21 rebounds, although Kareem did get the last laugh with 12 of his 20 points in the 4th quarter to pull out the win.

This was really when Malone's historical dominance, which last over 2 months, finally came to an end, as he scored 30+ in just 1 of his last 6 games to end the regular season.

But comparable stretches to Malone's 2 months in April have been few and far between.

Moses finished the season with a career-high 31.1 ppg which was 2nd in the league and a league-leading 14.7 rpg as he was voted MVP.

[Bigsmoke]

u got any video of him in 82?

[get these NETS]

second highest scoring total AND leading league in rebounds


that's what you call wiping your ass with the competition.

Moses was a a unique player..generally your leading rebounder is an offensively limited big man who just outworks everybody

this guy was putting up near league leading scoring and outhustling guys who weren't carrying as many duties

and team finished 3rd in division, so he wasn't doing this in games that didn't mean anything(yes...talking to kevin love fans)

[get these NETS]

Barkley said this one time in an interview.

paraphrasing...."F boxing out..I just went out there and GOT the ball"

if you watch footage of Moses, don't think you'll see him boxing out....and he commits another no-no in basketball....when he grabs boards..he brings ball down below his chest (difference between him and dwight howard is, he'd go down and shift his body/hips so that he's not going straight up and allowing others to strip it)

[LJJ]

Moses is a top 10 player of all time to me.

[Kblaze8855]

Ive always said Moses might be the least respected player ever relative to his own time. He may have been the best player inthe NBA from like 78-85 or at least the best for the majority of that time...but hes less respected than Magic, Bird, Kareem, and Doc. Ive seen Bird say Moses was the best player in the NBA in times where everyone else says Bird was the best.

Hes never gonna get the love he got from his peers/the league. His game doesnt really jump out at you from highlights but you watch him just work down on the block...he was a lot more skilled than people think.

Ive seen him making 20 footers in transition on the Rockets back when he was skinny. But his reputation is as a hustle guy who got cleanup baskets. But he could just...go get you points.

Nobody really plays like him that I can think of.

[G.O.A.T]

Moses run from the stretch in 1981 through those playoffs and his back-to-back MVP seasons of 1982 and 1983, capped off of course by the sweep of Showtime and a finals MVP in the '83 finals, is maybe the best we've seen from a big man outside of Shaq since the merger.

Touching on KBlaze's point, I think three things factored into Moses being so underrated both then and more so now.

1) He could barely speak and was painfully shy.

2) His game was not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as Bird, Magic, Kareem or Doc.

3) He played for over a decade well below his prime level while the NBA was much more popular than it was during his best years.

[Odinn]

Do you have complete statline of February and March months?

[ShaqAttack3234]

u got any video of him in 82?

Nah, I think I saw 1 or 2 games on the trade list of a collector I was trading with a while ago, one of the games I believe I saw on the list was the '81-'82 opener between the Lakers and Rockets which seems like a classic from the recap. It was a double overtime game with Kareem scoring 33 and Moses scoring 36. Norm Nixon and Calvin murphy were also ejected for fighting with both connecting on punches. Magic sent the game to OT with a desperation 44 footer, and Mike Dunleavy sent it to a second OT with a game-tying jumper with 22 seconds left.

That would be a great one to get. In general, '82 Rocket games seem rare, I haven't seen them on download sites.


Moses run from the stretch in 1981 through those playoffs and his back-to-back MVP seasons of 1982 and 1983, capped off of course by the sweep of Showtime and a finals MVP in the '83 finals, is maybe the best we've seen from a big man outside of Shaq since the merger.

Well, I'd also add Hakeem's '93-'95, which I think is right up there with Shaq's 3peat stretch, or '00 and '01 for that matter. Also, Kareem from about '77-'80.


Touching on KBlaze's point, I think three things factored into Moses being so underrated both then and more so now.

1) He could barely speak and was painfully shy.

2) His game was not nearly as aesthetically pleasing as Bird, Magic, Kareem or Doc.

3) He played for over a decade well below his prime level while the NBA was much more popular than it was during his best years.

I'm not sure how underrated he was because he did have some real playoff disappointments. We all know what he did in '81 and '83, which were very impressive postseason runs, though his finals wasn't great in '81.

But his '84 and '85 losses were really bad. His '82 performance vs Seattle was well below his dominant regular season level. Though I only have a problem with his performance that year, not necessarily his team losing like '84 and '85 when the Sixers were loaded and his performance was subpar. But even in '82, his performance doesn't bother me as much as those years because it was the 3 game mini-series.

I remember looking into the '79 and '80 playoffs and writing down notes from them, one of the years was subpar, iirc, and the other was fine going off memory.

But beyond that, I do think he had flaws in his game, such as being a huge black hole, who passed as rarely and reluctantly as any great I've seen. And he didn't seem to have the ability to anchor a defense like other great centers.

In general, I think he's ranked about right by most fans, some rank him as high as 11th, which is about as high as I think he deserves. He's probably somewhere in the 11-15 range along with players like Oscar, West and Lebron, Barkley and Garnett. I know that exceeds the 11-15 range, but those are the players who come to mind as comparable to moses and in that area.

Good point about Moses playing so long beyond his prime. Many are probably familiar with Malone's time with the Bullets and Hawks, though he remained a 20/10 guy through his first season with Atlanta in '89 and an all-star caliber center through '90. He also played surprisingly well in '92 with Milwaukee for his age, but was a shell of his former self despite being impressive for his age. but after that, he was struggling to get 10 minutes per game of playing time his last 3 years with the Bucks, Sixers and even the Spurs backing up David Robinson

And I definitely agree with KBlaze about Moses being unique, based on his talent level, you wouldn't expect the kind of dominance he displayed in '82, '83 or '81 for that matter.


Do you have complete statline of February and March months?

Unfortunately, that's about what I have as far as his stats. Complete stats are hard to come by for that era, but I think these give us an idea of how unstoppable he was at that point. Far more complete stats exist from '83, although his stats aren't as prolific on a superior team, though I'd imagine his level of play was similar both seasons.

[Odinn]

Unfortunately, that's about what I have as far as his stats. Complete stats are hard to come by for that era, but I think these give us an idea of how unstoppable he was at that point. Far more complete stats exist from '83, although his stats aren't as prolific on a superior team, though I'd imagine his level of play was similar both seasons.
I asked because I wonder his efficiency numbers and apg.

I agree tho. I mean a 38.1/17.3 month would be one of the greatest months by a player.

[G.O.A.T]

Well, I'd also add Hakeem's '93-'95, which I think is right up there with Shaq's 3peat stretch, or '00 and '01 for that matter. Also, Kareem from about '77-'80.

I wouldn't put Kareem on the same level because he didn't have the team success or consistency. But I did omit Hakeem's run, not sure why. What's unique about Moses, Hakeem and Shaq though is that during their peak, they were quite a bit better than every other center in the game and made a point to demonstrate that when they went head-to-head.



I'm not sure how underrated he was because he did have some real playoff disappointments. We all know what he did in '81 and '83, which were very impressive postseason runs, though his finals wasn't great in '81.

But his '84 and '85 losses were really bad. His '82 performance vs Seattle was well below his dominant regular season level. Though I only have a problem with his performance that year, not necessarily his team losing like '84 and '85 when the Sixers were loaded and his performance was subpar.

In terms of being underrated I was speaking more of the casual fans take. People like us who look into the stuff seem to value him just right. But I don't think most casual 20-30 year old fans have any idea how great he was.

I agree that '84 and '85 were disappointing losses, but Moses was injured in January of '84 and never got it treated. He was playing through considerable pain for most of both of those years and was pretty broken down by the playoffs. I'm not saying it totally excuses it, but it does offer an explanation in my opinion. Having learned what I have about Moses and his seasons with Philly after the title, I think 1983 was the last time we saw vintage Malone. He was never quite the same after.

[JellyBean]

Moses was on a whole other level. Talk about carrying a team. Moses carried the Rockets for years. I agree with Kblaze, Moses does not get the respect that he deserves. Folks are always adding people to the the top whatever list. But when we do that, we push players like Moses off the list.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I asked because I wonder his efficiency numbers and apg.

I agree tho. I mean a 38.1/17.3 month would be one of the greatest months by a player.

Well, there were a limited amount of stats printed in box scores in newspapers back then. Basketball-reference has FGM, FTM-FTA and obviously points for every game, and the occasional box score that's basically complete, but most of the rebounds and complete FG numbers had to be found in newspapers, which didn't print them all the time as I said. Usually just when a player has a big game, or shoots unusually well or poorly.

I'm almost positive he cleared 50 FG% by a good amount, and if you want, you can figure out his complete FT numbers from basketball-reference, and I know he got there a ton and shot a good % for a center. Probably coser to 80% than 70% during this stretch.

He shot 52% for the season and attempted 10 FTA, I'd be surprised if he wasn't over both in February, or February/March combined.


I wouldn't put Kareem on the same level because he didn't have the team success or consistency. But I did omit Hakeem's run, not sure why. What's unique about Moses, Hakeem and Shaq though is that during their peak, they were quite a bit better than every other center in the game and made a point to demonstrate that when they went head-to-head

Well, Kareem's team success is very impressive considering his supporting cast in '77, and his level of play makes me put him in that group. He obviously won the championship in '80 with an MVP season and a great playoff run.

'78 and '79 are the bigger questions for me. '78 was the year he missed a lot of games after punching Kent Benson, iirc, the team only went 8-13 without him(37-24 with him). But this before the Dantley trade, so it's not quite representative of the team he went into the playoffs with. I don't remember looking into the '78 series vs the Sonics so I can't judge his playoff performance until I do.

'79 doesn't have the same problems for me, and was one of his best regular seasons, imo. Kareem moved into the high post more and took on a bigger role as a facilitator. His play in the playoffs doesn't seem to be a question for me either. He had a talented team, but they were not built well. No power forward contributed to them playing Wilkes and Dantley as their 2 forwards, which really hurt their rebounding and limited them defensively. Dantley was also frequently getting benched late in the season due to poor play and injuries. Perimeter defense was also a huge problem, which ultimately killed them vs Seattle. One of Kareem's games vs Denver when facing elimination was called his best by some, I believe it was game 2. And he hit he series-winning shot in game 3. I'm not on my home computer, so I don't have access to the information from these playoffs and articles from the season/playoffs, though.

We view Kareem differently most of the time, but his team success during this time is comparable to Malone's, and worthy of the comparison on the strength of the '77 season and his championship run in '80, imo.

His stretch from about '71-'74 was also very good, although I think Kareem was a more consistent playoff performer later and a more complete player during the '77-'80 stretch.


In terms of being underrated I was speaking more of the casual fans take. People like us who look into the stuff seem to value him just right. But I don't think most casual 20-30 year old fans have any idea how great he was.

That's definitely true, some don't even know who he is. But I find that casual fans really aren't that good for an extensive discussion on the NBA anyway. I'll discuss basketball with casual fans because I love the sport and talking about it(otherwise I wouldn't be here), but I won't do it in the hopes of learning something.


I agree that '84 and '85 were disappointing losses, but Moses was injured in January of '84 and never got it treated. He was playing through considerable pain for most of both of those years and was pretty broken down by the playoffs. I'm not saying it totally excuses it, but it does offer an explanation in my opinion. Having learned what I have about Moses and his seasons with Philly after the title, I think 1983 was the last time we saw vintage Malone. He was never quite the same after.

I agree that the injury in '84 is worth mentioning, but I found it interesting that the Sixers owner accused Moses of being out of shape and not working as hard, which he claimed contributed to the injury. It seems out of character considering he was known as arguably the hardest working NBA player and an overachiever for his talent level.

He didn't seem as dominant after '83 from what I've seen/read, but '85 was viewed as a comeback season for him. Billy Cunningham and others were talking about him being better than '84 and healthy, unlike '84. He ended up 3rd in MVP voting and back on the all-nba first team.

[Odinn]

Well, there were a limited amount of stats printed in box scores in newspapers back then. Basketball-reference has FGM, FTM-FTA and obviously points for every game, and the occasional box score that's basically complete, but most of the rebounds and complete FG numbers had to be found in newspapers, which didn't print them all the time as I said. Usually just when a player has a big game, or shoots unusually well or poorly.

I'm almost positive he cleared 50 FG% by a good amount, and if you want, you can figure out his complete FT numbers from basketball-reference, and I know he got there a ton and shot a good % for a center. Probably coser to 80% than 70% during this stretch.

He shot 52% for the season and attempted 10 FTA, I'd be surprised if he wasn't over both in February, or February/March combined.
I checked out basketball-reference and here is the available numbers about his efficiency;
In February; he made 198 field goals(14.1 per game), he attempted 175 free throws and made 138 of them(78.9%). Averaged 38.1(534/14) points.
In March; he made 209 field goals(13.1 per game), he attempted 182 free throws and made 142 of them(78.0%). Averaged 35.0(560/16) points.

I'm sure he was way better than .520 in the February. But not so sure about March.:cheers:

One last q about numbers; how did you manage to find rebounding numbers? I mean you said "38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg". Was it from a paper? Or did you find his rebounding numbers from a different source?:cheers:

[ShaqAttack3234]

One last q about numbers; how did you manage to find rebounding numbers? I mean you said "38.1 ppg and 17.3 rpg". Was it from a paper? Or did you find his rebounding numbers from a different source?:cheers:

It was from an article about Moses getting voted player of the month, they listed his scoring average and rebounds.

[G.O.A.T]

Well, Kareem's team success is very impressive considering his supporting cast in '77, and his level of play makes me put him in that group. He obviously won the championship in '80 with an MVP season and a great playoff run.

'78 and '79 are the bigger questions for me. '78 was the year he missed a lot of games after punching Kent Benson, iirc, the team only went 8-13 without him(37-24 with him). But this before the Dantley trade, so it's not quite representative of the team he went into the playoffs with. I don't remember looking into the '78 series vs the Sonics so I can't judge his playoff performance until I do.

'79 doesn't have the same problems for me, and was one of his best regular seasons, imo. Kareem moved into the high post more and took on a bigger role as a facilitator. His play in the playoffs doesn't seem to be a question for me either. He had a talented team, but they were not built well. No power forward contributed to them playing Wilkes and Dantley as their 2 forwards, which really hurt their rebounding and limited them defensively. Dantley was also frequently getting benched late in the season due to poor play and injuries. Perimeter defense was also a huge problem, which ultimately killed them vs Seattle. One of Kareem's games vs Denver when facing elimination was called his best by some, I believe it was game 2. And he hit he series-winning shot in game 3. I'm not on my home computer, so I don't have access to the information from these playoffs and articles from the season/playoffs, though.

We view Kareem differently most of the time, but his team success during this time is comparable to Malone's, and worthy of the comparison on the strength of the '77 season and his championship run in '80, imo.

I'm just not as impressed. He was out-shined by Magic in 1980 even though he did play better overall obviously. '78 and '79 were bad playoff losses to inferior teams (or better less talented). 1978 is especially bad IMO. The Lakers had Dantley, Wilkes, Lou Hudson, Charlie Scott and Norm Nixon. All four were the second-fourth best player on a finals team at some point of their career and yet that team gets beat by a Sonics team that didn't have an all-star on their roster that season and all four of their best players were under 25.

In 1979 while the Sonics have evolved into a very good team, the Lakers still had more talented and got annihilated in five games. It's to easy to look at Kareem's numbers and say "not his fault" because Kareem always put up good numbers. But where was his impact on his teammates?
Why did his teams all underachieve (outside his rookie year) unless Oscar or Magic was on the roster?
Why did almost every player Kareem played with in the 70's have better seasons before or after (or both) they played with Kareem?

Imagine taking the greatest version of MJ, Russell, Magic or Bird and giving them a shot at the competition from 1978 and 1979 with a comparable roster. I'd be shocked if those guys didn't win two titles and yet Kareem wins a total of four playoff games. That's not the same as what Moses, Hakeem and Shaq did imo. Good discussion as always.




I agree that the injury in '84 is worth mentioning, but I found it interesting that the Sixers owner accused Moses of being out of shape and not working as hard, which he claimed contributed to the injury. It seems out of character considering he was known as arguably the hardest working NBA player and an overachiever for his talent level.

He didn't seem as dominant after '83 from what I've seen/read, but '85 was viewed as a comeback season for him. Billy Cunningham and others were talking about him being better than '84 and healthy, unlike '84. He ended up 3rd in MVP voting and back on the all-nba first team.

The 1985 season was a comeback regular season for Moses, but he was injured again in late March and never really recovered. As usual Moses said the injury was minor (it wasn't we later learned) and played through it, But he did finish the season on a sour note shooting just 42% over the final 12 games of the year, he was just under 50% for the season prior to the slump. He then shot 42% in the playoffs (a career low) and grabbed just over 10 rebounds a game (also a career low). Considering it was a lower body injury (ankle I suspect) and there are quotes from teammates and opponents saying Moses doesn't have the same lift as usual, that makes perfect sense I think.

Had Moses been a little less stubborn and not tried to isolate himself from criticism by playing through injuries, his healthy prime may have lasted 2-3 more years.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I'm just not as impressed. He was out-shined by Magic in 1980 even though he did play better overall obviously.

This wasn't a consideration for me. Magic was always a more likable player to the fans and media(though Kareem never did anything nearly as petty as getting a coach fired pure for selfish reasons). But while Magic's game 6 was bigger considering the moment with their best player out, and also compared to his usual level that season, but Kareem's level of play in his game 5 was always more impressive to me than Magic's game 6.

Kareem's '80 season and playoff run were phenomenal. The playoff run in particular stacks up with the best, both from what i've seen having watched all of those games except 2-3 in the Suns series and also the numbers.


'78 and '79 were bad playoff losses to inferior teams (or better less talented). 1978 is especially bad IMO. The Lakers had Dantley, Wilkes, Lou Hudson, Charlie Scott and Norm Nixon. All four were the second-fourth best player on a finals team at some point of their career and yet that team gets beat by a Sonics team that didn't have an all-star on their roster that season and all four of their best players were under 25.

As I said, I don't have an opinion on this one yet until I look into it.


In 1979 while the Sonics have evolved into a very good team, the Lakers still had more talented and got annihilated in five games. It's to easy to look at Kareem's numbers and say "not his fault" because Kareem always put up good numbers. But where was his impact on his teammates?

I really don't see the problems in the series as being Kareem. I think their 2 problems were what they addressed the following season which was rebounding/the power forward position and perimeter defense. Gus Williams lit the Lakers up for 31 ppg in the series and Dennis Johnson also had a big series.

The Sonics were also built well, nobody was playing out of position, and they had quality players at every position. They were just a better team and matched up well with the players to exploit one of the LA's biggest weaknesses.

Seattle doesn't look overmatched in talent to me either, and there have been countless examples where the more talented team doesn't win. Part of it has to do with how the team is built, and match ups. Both of those were the biggest reasons for Seattle's victory, imo.


Why did his teams all underachieve (outside his rookie year) unless Oscar or Magic was on the roster?

Oscar was old in '74 and no longer what I'd call a great player and that team certainly didn't underachieve, especially in the playoffs.

The '77 team also overachieved, imo.

I wouldn't say the '75 Bucks underachieved either. They finished under .500 and missed the playoffs, but this is because they went a terrible 3-14 without Kareem. But they went a respectable 35-30 with him.


Why did almost every player Kareem played with in the 70's have better seasons before or after (or both) they played with Kareem?

I haven't thought about that, can you cite some examples? I'll have to see what their ages were when playing with Kareem and the circumstances.


Imagine taking the greatest version of MJ, Russell, Magic or Bird and giving them a shot at the competition from 1978 and 1979 with a comparable roster. I'd be shocked if those guys didn't win two titles and yet Kareem wins a total of four playoff games. That's not the same as what Moses, Hakeem and Shaq did imo. Good discussion as always.

I can see a lot of those guys failing to win with a team like the '79 one that has weaknesses like no power forward, can't rebound and has such terrible perimeter defense. The '79 team would actually probably work better with a player like Russell since he'd take care of more of the defense and rebounding and they didn't need scoring as much. I will say that. But that's another thing all together because I'm mostly referring to them being a team who were built more around Russell's strengths and weaknesses. The equivalent would be building a team around Russell that had great defenders, but no real offensive talent because Russell doesn't need much help as far as rebounding and defense, but would need some scorers.

As far as Magic? We saw him lose in '90 when he had probably his second best season behind '87, or at worst, his 3rd best season. The Lakers had the best record at 63-19, but lost to a 54-28 Suns team. Granted, they were loaded, but the Lakers were clearly favored and lost in 5. While Magic played well, his defense was part of the reason for the upset. Magic could always get torched by both quick players and shooters, the Suns had both at the guard positions. He obviously couldn't guard KG, so Byron Scott did, and KJ lit him up, though this was not uncommon. However, Jeff Hornacek played some of his best ball and exploited Magic's defense giving Phoenix a boost. Another reason was Phoenix making Magic more of a scorer. they guarded him 1 on 1 in the post, which was rarely done because he'd almost always scored, but he also passed as well as anyone I've seen out of the post, so he regularly picked apart doubles. Instead of doubling Magic, they had Dan Majerle play him 1 on 1 most of the time, and he averaged 30 including back to back 43 point games to end the series(both in losses) and it kept Magic's teammates from going off.

Overall, Magic lost with the more talented team a number of times('84, '86, '90 and '91). The competition wasn't comparable in '84 and '91 in particular, and he wasn't quite at his best in '84, though that was one of the 2 years he seemed to make big improvements over a season along with '87 of course.

But I'd say Magic losing to Houston in '86 and Phoenix in '90 is comparable to Kareem losing considering how good Magic's teams were.


The 1985 season was a comeback regular season for Moses, but he was injured again in late March and never really recovered. As usual Moses said the injury was minor (it wasn't we later learned) and played through it, But he did finish the season on a sour note shooting just 42% over the final 12 games of the year, he was just under 50% for the season prior to the slump. He then shot 42% in the playoffs (a career low) and grabbed just over 10 rebounds a game (also a career low). Considering it was a lower body injury (ankle I suspect) and there are quotes from teammates and opponents saying Moses doesn't have the same lift as usual, that makes perfect sense I think.

Bird was injured himself in the '85 conference finals and it really showed in his production so I do think Philly should have done better than taking just 1 game.

[Pointguard]

When Moses was playing good ball he had one word to describe him - relentless. He could outhustle anybody. He was the first person I seen throw the ball off of the backboard to himself. He claimed the blocks outside of either side of the rim better than anybody in modern history. He could bounce back up three or four times like it was his first jump. He was a hardcore street worker on the blocks. Rodman was similar on the defensive boards but nowhere near Moses on the offensive glass.

MM game didn't look polished and was devoid of style. "He came, he saw, he rebounded, tapped the ball in, worked the blocks and would begone." Nothing more to add there.

I think people in general don't think much of hardhat players. Kevin Garnett still is playing and you rarely hear people talk about him playing every possession with intensity for like four years straight. You'll just never hear it mentioned. What I do find ironic is that the league was looking for a savior when Moses was hitting his stride (no pun intended). Amazingly they didn't drum up a guy that Kareem was definitely having trouble with and who, stylistically, was Kareem's opposite. As GOAT mentioned, Moses wasn't TV ready and the game needed a personality because Kareem was a dessert.

After Wilt left, the league was in trouble and I think anybody in that time period (between Wilt and Bird/Magic) isn't really an NBA darling. The ABA was a bit more exciting but even the merger couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. Plain and simple, you weren't going to get extra hype if you were from that period.

[G.O.A.T]

This wasn't a consideration for me. Magic was always a more likable player to the fans and media(though Kareem never did anything nearly as petty as getting a coach fired pure for selfish reasons). But while Magic's game 6 was bigger considering the moment with their best player out, and also compared to his usual level that season, but Kareem's level of play in his game 5 was always more impressive to me than Magic's game 6.

Kareem's '80 season and playoff run were phenomenal. The playoff run in particular stacks up with the best, both from what i've seen having watched all of those games except 2-3 in the Suns series and also the numbers.

It's not that i think you're wrong about anything, I just don't agree with your conclusion.



I really don't see the problems in the series as being Kareem. I think their 2 problems were what they addressed the following season which was rebounding/the power forward position and perimeter defense. Gus Williams lit the Lakers up for 31 ppg in the series and Dennis Johnson also had a big series.

The Sonics were also built well, nobody was playing out of position, and they had quality players at every position. They were just a better team and matched up well with the players to exploit one of the LA's biggest weaknesses.

All of this is true, but you'd expect a guy who is arguably the greatest ever at the height of his prime to occasionally overcome this. Rick Barry's Warriors were certainly not as well built or deep as the '75 Bulls. The '00 Blazers also held an edge in depth and continuity over the Lakers from that year, but we know how that ended.


Seattle doesn't look overmatched in talent to me either, and there have been countless examples where the more talented team doesn't win. Part of it has to do with how the team is built, and match ups. Both of those were the biggest reasons for Seattle's victory, imo.

In 1979 Seattle has a clear depth edge and their core players (Williams, Johnson & Sikma) had grown a lot from the previous seasons experience.

But in '78, if you just look at LA's top six players without Kareem and Seattle's top seven players...

Keith Wilkes (24)
Adrian Dantley (22)
Norm Nixon (22)
Lou Hudson (33)
Charlie Scott (29)
Dave Robish (28)

vs.

Marvin Webster (25)
Gus Williams (24)
Dennis Johnson (23)
Jack Sikma (22)
Freddie Brown (29)
Paul Silas (32)
John Johnson (30)

I don't see one team as having some great edge here in terms of talent alone. Through in Kareem to LA and I think they have a clear edge.




Oscar was old in '74 and no longer what I'd call a great player and that team certainly didn't underachieve, especially in the playoffs.

I wouldn't say the '75 Bucks underachieved either. They finished under .500 and missed the playoffs, but this is because they went a terrible 3-14 without Kareem. But they went a respectable 35-30 with him.


The point is not that Kareem needed more talent, but someone to lead the team in order for it to contend. The idea that the '74 team was a few plays from a title and the '75 team, which traded Lou Allen for Jim Price, lost Oscar and Curtis Perry (basically a 10-10 guy) and added George Thompson (an all-star in the ABA the previous three seasons), wins 15-20 games less and is a borderline playoff team?

I think that tell's you the '74 Bucks might have had some intangibles that were missing in '75 as well.


The '77 team also overachieved, imo.

In the same way the 2011 Magic overachieved though.


I'll get to the rest via PM, don't want to distract from the topic anymore.

[Pointguard]

As far as Magic? We saw him lose in '90 when he had probably his second best season behind '87, or at worst, his 3rd best season. The Lakers had the best record at 63-19, but lost to a 54-28 Suns team. Granted, they were loaded, but the Lakers were clearly favored and lost in 5. While Magic played well, his defense was part of the reason for the upset. Magic could always get torched by both quick players and shooters, the Suns had both at the guard positions. He obviously couldn't guard KG, so Byron Scott did, and KJ lit him up, though this was not uncommon. However, Jeff Hornacek played some of his best ball and exploited Magic's defense giving Phoenix a boost.

... Overall, Magic lost with the more talented team a number of times('84, '86, '90 and '91). The competition wasn't comparable in '84 and '91 in particular, and he wasn't quite at his best in '84, though that was one of the 2 years he seemed to make big improvements over a season along with '87 of course.


In the Pheonix series Magic was by far the best player in that series. Even KJ who was hot wasn't in his league. Since Magic came into the league he rarely guarded the PGs. Magic was needed for rebounds, he usually outrebouded Kareem and Worthy and usually guarded a forward. IIRC Magic usually guarded Marley and not Hornacek. Byron Scott played horrible in that series and Magic played out of this world in that series. That series Magic put on one of the best scoring/passing performance in the modern era.

You mentioned '91??? Magic was left on an island by himself and you saying that he had a more talented team than a starving MJ and Pippen. Worthy and Scott were Magic's main help and their play/absence was in the negative. No way was that Laker team more talented at that time - unless you are saying regardless of health.

[jlauber]

A PRIME Moses, a PRIME Shaq, and a PRIME Chamberlain were probably the only centers, in NBA history (at least post '60) to absolutely dominate every one of their best peers. Even a prime Kareem struggled against the best centers he faced throughout his career (albeit, he outplayed the majority of them.)

[magnax1]

82 vs 83 Moses is tough. I don't think there was really much, if any difference between the two. He focused more on defense and rebounding in 83 because of the lightened offensive load, but I don't think he was any less capable of scoring, or any less capable of defense or rebounding the previous year. If there is a difference, it's minimal. Either way he was pretty clearly the best player from 81-83 to me.

[jlauber]

82 vs 83 Moses is tough. I don't think there was really much, if any difference between the two. He focused more on defense and rebounding in 83 because of the lightened offensive load, but I don't think he was any less capable of scoring, or any less capable of defense or rebounding the previous year. If there is a difference, it's minimal. Either way he was pretty clearly the best player from 81-83 to me.

I honestly believe he was the best player in the league from at least '78-79 thru '82-83, and at his best, even in the '83-84 and 84-85 seasons.

He certainly gave Kareem all he could handle, even in Kareem's last MVP season.

[magnax1]

I honestly believe he was the best player in the league from at least '78-79 thru '82-83, and at his best, even in the '83-84 and 84-85 seasons.

He certainly gave Kareem all he could handle, even in Kareem's last MVP season.
I think 79, 81-83 he was the best. I wouldn't really have a problem with someone saying he was the best in 80, though I do think Kareem had a freak year that gets a bit overlooked in 80. However in 84 and 85 Bird was quite clearly the best in the league to me.

[jlauber]

I think 79, 81-83 he was the best. I wouldn't really have a problem with someone saying he was the best in 80, though I do think Kareem had a freak year that gets a bit overlooked in 80. However in 84 and 85 Bird was quite clearly the best in the league to me.

In any case, Moses at his PEAK, was probably a top-five player. Once again, he dominated his peers like few other all-time greats have.

[Odinn]

Moses run from the stretch in 1981 through those playoffs and his back-to-back MVP seasons of 1982 and 1983, capped off of course by the sweep of Showtime and a finals MVP in the '83 finals, is maybe the best we've seen from a big man outside of Shaq since the merger.
1981-83 Moses
1993-95 Hakeem
2000-02 Shaq
2001-03 Duncan

Can you rank them for me? I'm curious about your opinion.

[Gifted Mind]

1981-83 Moses
1993-95 Hakeem
2000-02 Shaq
2001-03 Duncan

Can you rank them for me? I'm curious about your opinion.

Fixed

[Odinn]

Fixed
Yep. You're right.

[G.O.A.T]

1981-83 Moses
1993-95 Hakeem
2000-02 Shaq
2001-03 Duncan

Can you rank them for me? I'm curious about your opinion.


1) Shaq - It's not just the fact that he was the only one to get three titles of the group, he was just so clearly the best player in the NBA (when healthy and focused) and that was the only stretch of the career where he was able to go into the playoffs at close to 100% every year. Shaq's dominance on offense was obvious, but the subtle improvements to his team defense and overall attitude towards leadership made him the best he's ever been and the best center I've seen in my life. I do think Duncan deserved the MVP in 2002, but Shaq got back on track by the playoffs and left little doubt who was the premier big man in the NBA.

2) Hakeem - The only thing that makes me a bit reticent about putting dream here is that I didn't feel this strongly about what he was doing at the time. I never felt that Hakeem was the top player in the league ( I was wrong) I thought Robinson was already a better center by 1991 or 1992 (and presumed he'd only get better) and I still mostly think Charles Barkley was a lot better than Hakeem in 1993 IMO, and if Chuck is healthy in 1994 and 1995, the Rockets are dispatched in the second round both years. Barkley had those intangible qualities and leadership that Hakeem lacked, it's why the Rockets lost to the Sonic's (along with some bad calls) Hakeem always let someone else take the big shots. While Hakeem often single-handedly kept the Rockets close in big games, it was Maxwell and Smith missing the crucial shots in 1993 and Horry and Elie making them in 1994 and 1995 that determined if the Rockets advanced or not. Still this version of Hakeem brings more combined offensive and defensive skills to the table than any player maybe ever, certainly at that position and that time. Hard to rank him any lower.

3) Moses - These were the last three years of Moses physical peak. By 1984 his body was breaking down and he was never able to be the same dominant player from start to finish over the 80-100 game NBA season. But during this time he was the elite big man in the NBA surpassing an aging Kareem and predating the Hakeem and Ewing types to come shortly. Moses was a more raw version of Hakeem and Shaq, didn't have the physical power of Shaq or the grace of the Dream, but he was willing to outwork anyone. The Rockets run to the 1981 Finals was fueled by Malone's passion and his 1982 MVP season was the most spectacular individual combined scoring and rebounding campaign of the post-merger era. In 1983 he sealed the deal by delivering the Championship he was acquired to win. The Fo Fo Fo prediction was one game away from coming true and Malone was surely the reason for it.

4) Duncan - The funny thing is Duncan had the best career out of all these guys but his peak, where he was the leagues best player, was more or less a result of Shaq's decline and guys like Garnett, McGrady and Kobe all sort of missing something (usually quality teammates or an alpha role). Duncan didn't dominate so much as he worse you down. His consistency is his greatest quality and that doesn't get you ranked to high in terms of peak lists. He was outstanding in the 2003 playoffs however, that was the one season where I think he was really close to the level those other guys hit. His first and last game of the NBA finals were epic, his 26-15-5-3 stat line for the playoffs is pretty special too. It's hard to believe he's last here, but I think he is.

[Odinn]

1) Shaq - It's not just the fact that he was the only one to get three titles of the group, he was just so clearly the best player in the NBA (when healthy and focused) and that was the only stretch of the career where he was able to go into the playoffs at close to 100% every year. Shaq's dominance on offense was obvious, but the subtle improvements to his team defense and overall attitude towards leadership made him the best he's ever been and the best center I've seen in my life. I do think Duncan deserved the MVP in 2002, but Shaq got back on track by the playoffs and left little doubt who was the premier big man in the NBA.

2) Hakeem - The only thing that makes me a bit reticent about putting dream here is that I didn't feel this strongly about what he was doing at the time. I never felt that Hakeem was the top player in the league ( I was wrong) I thought Robinson was already a better center by 1991 or 1992 (and presumed he'd only get better) and I still mostly think Charles Barkley was a lot better than Hakeem in 1993 IMO, and if Chuck is healthy in 1994 and 1995, the Rockets are dispatched in the second round both years. Barkley had those intangible qualities and leadership that Hakeem lacked, it's why the Rockets lost to the Sonic's (along with some bad calls) Hakeem always let someone else take the big shots. While Hakeem often single-handedly kept the Rockets close in big games, it was Maxwell and Smith missing the crucial shots in 1993 and Horry and Elie making them in 1994 and 1995 that determined if the Rockets advanced or not. Still this version of Hakeem brings more combined offensive and defensive skills to the table than any player maybe ever, certainly at that position and that time. Hard to rank him any lower.

3) Moses - These were the last three years of Moses physical peak. By 1984 his body was breaking down and he was never able to be the same dominant player from start to finish over the 80-100 game NBA season. But during this time he was the elite big man in the NBA surpassing an aging Kareem and predating the Hakeem and Ewing types to come shortly. Moses was a more raw version of Hakeem and Shaq, didn't have the physical power of Shaq or the grace of the Dream, but he was willing to outwork anyone. The Rockets run to the 1981 Finals was fueled by Malone's passion and his 1982 MVP season was the most spectacular individual combined scoring and rebounding campaign of the post-merger era. In 1983 he sealed the deal by delivering the Championship he was acquired to win. The Fo Fo Fo prediction was one game away from coming true and Malone was surely the reason for it.

4) Duncan - The funny thing is Duncan had the best career out of all these guys but his peak, where he was the leagues best player, was more or less a result of Shaq's decline and guys like Garnett, McGrady and Kobe all sort of missing something (usually quality teammates or an alpha role). Duncan didn't dominate so much as he worse you down. His consistency is his greatest quality and that doesn't get you ranked to high in terms of peak lists. He was outstanding in the 2003 playoffs however, that was the one season where I think he was really close to the level those other guys hit. His first and last game of the NBA finals were epic, his 26-15-5-3 stat line for the playoffs is pretty special too. It's hard to believe he's last here, but I think he is.
:cheers: :cheers:

Duncan is my all-time favourite but you can make a case for anyone of them being the best of them or being the worst of them. About that, there is no wrong ranking imo.

[NugzHeat3]

and I still mostly think Charles Barkley was a lot better than Hakeem in 1993 IMO, and if Chuck is healthy in 1994 and 1995, the Rockets are dispatched in the second round both years. Barkley had those intangible qualities and leadership that Hakeem lacked, it's why the Rockets lost to the Sonic's (along with some bad calls) Hakeem always let someone else take the big shots.
GOAT, I disagree here.

For one, what’s the edge in intangibles and leadership? I know you have the ability to take GW shots as one of the intangibles and I’ll go into that later. Besides that, Barkley has been criticized by Jerry Colangelo (traded for him) for costing PHX 2 championships for his off court antics, lack of dedication and layoffs. Is this not an intangible? He’s not particularly setting a good example here.


Just when I thought Mike D'Antoni had reached the penthouse in my esteem, he crushed Charles Barkley with the truth. During a recent TNT telecast the monotonous mope criticized the Suns coach's stunted rotation, ignorantly claiming Phoenix had the deepest bench in the league and arguing the reserves should be used more.

D'Antoni responded by saying he wasn't sure he should take basketball advice from someone who "choked" away championships and had his own playoff conditioning questioned.

Last year during the playoffs, I told Jerry Colangelo I was aghast he had retired Barkley's number. For a decade or so he ostracized his former franchise player with good reason; the Suns outgoing chairman/CEO believed Barkley's after-hour playoff carousing had cost him a championship.

"Two championships," Colangelo replied.
http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/item_wuuwg2wXWhje2gYI7gbBhJ;jsessionid=41EB98CC130 02F777AD0F29CFB9F0F36

Westphal comment on Barkley’s defense:


He was notoriously bad at defending the pick-and-roll. We had five different ways to defend it and we’d ask him how he wanted to do it. He’d say one way and then it would happen in the game, and he would do it a different way. It would mess up our defense and the (opposing) team would score. So we’d call a timeout. We’d change it and do it a different way, and he’d do it the wrong way again, and mess it up again, and the other team would score. This happened throughout the whole game.

I remember one close game where we needed one stop to win the game, and we knew they were going to run the pick-and-roll, and they did. Charles defended it perfectly, stole the ball and we won the game. After the game, I remember he dropped by the coach’s office and there were a bunch of reporters and (other) people sitting around, and he stuck his head in and said, “Hey Coach, did you like the way I defended the pick-and-roll that last time?” I said, “Yeah, I loved it, Chuck.” He said, “I just want you to know something. I can play defense. I just don’t.” Then he laughed and walked out of the place. That’s kind of Charles in a nutshell. http://www.nba.com/suns/news/barkley_memories_westphal.html

The fact that he didn't adjust defensively, put very little effort on defense and is basically admitting to do so is another issue and an intangible because it can’t be measured. Ability is irrelevant when you don't put the effort in which he rarely did.

Hakeem had no such issues during his peak years. He gave his best effort on both ends, was a leader by example, an emotional leader as well as a vocal leader and there’s empirical evidence that shows this. You even had Rudy T trying to coach the team based on Hakeem’s poise and character.


It cannot help but influence his Rockets teammates and their play. As forward Robert Horry said, when asked about the Rockets' calm under pressure and ability to rise to any occasion, "It all flows from No. 34."

He had been asked to be a more vocal leader in the past, and he has done that. But his greater impact is unspoken, not only in the example of work habits or play, but in his entire "stay hungry, stay humble" approach to his game and life.

"I admire him so much for his even temperament," Rockets coach Rudy Tomjanovich said. "I've tried to coach that way. I am a very emotional person. But I realized when I started coaching, negative emotions can really hurt your team. That's the way Hakeem is.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1995_1281366

Next, you bringing up Barkley's health is a legitimate point in both of the years but Barkley's off court habits are a major issue in 1994 as mentioned by Colangelo and he gagged at the line in 1995. They had the opportunity to win despite the health issues and Barkley was the one who blew it so it’s hard to really excuse this loss because he was injured. Late in game 5 when they were up 3-1, Barkley had the chance to send Houston packing but he went 1/4 from the line in the last two minutes of regulation and Hakeem eventually hit the game tying shot to send it to OT which I might add is a clear example of his ability to take the shot with their entire season on the line and he made it.


Olajuwon, who had 31 points and 16 rebounds, hit a tough 12-footer with 8.2 seconds left in regulation to force overtime. Then, the Rockets showed their championship heart.
The Rockets were down 91-90 after Barkley missed two free throws with 2:16 to play in regulation.
Again, Barkley accommodated the Rockets, missing the first of two shots with 17.9 ticks showing, putting the Rockets in a 92-90 hole.
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1995_1274422/rockets-103-suns-97-ot-high-five-suns-fail-to-stop.html

On to the comparison between their ability to take the last shot, Hakeem as a C was picked by coaches over anybody else in the league in February 1994 (before the championship runs) as the guy they'd have take the last shot with the game on the line. Ask yourself what made them choose him over Barkley and a whole bunch of perimeter players who already have an inherit advantage over big men with their ability to create from the get-go.


Player you would pick to take the last shot with the game on the line: The Rockets' center Hakeem Olajuwon (seven votes) edged Sun forward Charles Barkley (six).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004903/index.htm

You have to think why he was getting double teamed in the first place because if teams thought of him as a guy reluctant to take big shots, they wouldn't have been forcing the ball out of his hands otherwise. They double teamed him because he was a great scorer in single coverage and forcing a shot over double teams is a bad decision anyway and it's kind of ironic to point it out because people were critical of him forcing shots over double teams earlier in his career. You'll notice how he shot the ball in that game 5 vs PHX that I mentioned above with all on the line. He was single covered, recognized that and shot the ball. The fact that he shoots when single covered and passes when double teamed shows an excellent read of the defense and understanding of the game. He was also creating a whole bunch of GW shot opportunities whether directly or indirectly. You have to give as much credit to the shot creator as you do to the shot maker especially when the shot creator is creating good looks.

Mario Elie on the kiss of death:

“He made me who I am today. Like I tell everybody, I get the ‘Kiss of Death’ shot (that clinched Game 7 of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals) because Danny Schayes didn’t want to leave Dream under the basket. It was either my shot or Dream making a shot down low.".”
http://www.foxsportshouston.com/03/22/12/Olajuwon-dreamed-Rockets-to-championship/landing_rockets.html?blockID=694092&feedID=3714

Sam Cassell's GW 3 vs New York in the 1994 finals was assisted by Hakeem because he sucked the defense in. Same goes for Hakeem assisting Robert Horry's GW in game 1 vs San Antonio in 1995 and the GW 3 vs Orlando in the finals. Here’s Horry commenting on the shot:


"Dream (Hakeem Olajuwon) spoke to me, and when the big fella speaks to you, that's a key," Horry said. "He told me just to shoot the 3 because I was passing up the 3 and trying to penetrate, and that's not my game. I hesitated on one of those shots earlier in the corner, and it messed up our flow."

"All of our guys are confident," said Elie, whose 3-pointer in the final seconds of Game 7 won the Phoenix series. "They (opponents) know where we're going for the money. We're going to Dream. They have to double him. When they did, Robert got a great shot, put the perfect rotation on it."
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1995_1280188/in-the-clutch-champs-shift-into-high-gear-players.html

Kenny Smith’s barrage of 3s in game 1 of the finals was a result of Hakeem getting so much defensive attention which got him great looks and eventually gave him confidence and rhythm (an intangible).


One thing jumped out at the Magic when they reviewed the tape of Wednesday's Game 1 - they were so focused on stopping Houston center Hakeem Olajuwon, at times there were three Orlando players on him rather than the prescribed two double-teamers. Simple math, that left at least two Rockets open on the perimeter, where they connected on 14 of 32 3-point attempts. ''We just really messed up a lot of defensive rotations,'' Magic forward Donald Royal said. ''We were so concerned with getting the ball out of Hakeem's hands, we were leaving all their good shooters open. And once they got their confidence rolling, they took off.''
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1995-06-09/sports/9506090300_1_orlando-magic-magic-fans-sidney-green

All the above are positive intangibles rather than a flaw since it's benefiting your teammates and they can testify that.

[G.O.A.T]

GOAT, I disagree here.

For one, what’s the edge in intangibles and leadership? I know you have the ability to take GW shots as one of the intangibles and I’ll go into that later. Besides that, Barkley has been criticized by Jerry Colangelo (traded for him) for costing PHX 2 championships for his off court antics, lack of dedication and layoffs. Is this not an intangible? He’s not particularly setting a good example here.


http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/item_wuuwg2wXWhje2gYI7gbBhJ;jsessionid=41EB98CC130 02F777AD0F29CFB9F0F36

Westphal comment on Barkley’s defense:

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/barkley_memories_westphal.html

The fact that he didn't adjust defensively, put very little effort on defense and is basically admitting to do so is another issue and an intangible because it can’t be measured. Ability is irrelevant when you don't put the effort in which he rarely did.

Hakeem had no such issues during his peak years. He gave his best effort on both ends, was a leader by example, an emotional leader as well as a vocal leader and there’s empirical evidence that shows this. You even had Rudy T trying to coach the team based on Hakeem’s poise and character.


http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1995_1281366

Next, you bringing up Barkley's health is a legitimate point in both of the years but Barkley's off court habits are a major issue in 1994 as mentioned by Colangelo and he gagged at the line in 1995. They had the opportunity to win despite the health issues and Barkley was the one who blew it so it’s hard to really excuse this loss because he was injured. Late in game 5 when they were up 3-1, Barkley had the chance to send Houston packing but he went 1/4 from the line in the last two minutes of regulation and Hakeem eventually hit the game tying shot to send it to OT which I might add is a clear example of his ability to take the shot with their entire season on the line and he made it.


http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1995_1274422/rockets-103-suns-97-ot-high-five-suns-fail-to-stop.html

On to the comparison between their ability to take the last shot, Hakeem as a C was picked by coaches over anybody else in the league in February 1994 (before the championship runs) as the guy they'd have take the last shot with the game on the line. Ask yourself what made them choose him over Barkley and a whole bunch of perimeter players who already have an inherit advantage over big men with their ability to create from the get-go.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004903/index.htm

You have to think why he was getting double teamed in the first place because if teams thought of him as a guy reluctant to take big shots, they wouldn't have been forcing the ball out of his hands otherwise. They double teamed him because he was a great scorer in single coverage and forcing a shot over double teams is a bad decision anyway and it's kind of ironic to point it out because people were critical of him forcing shots over double teams earlier in his career. You'll notice how he shot the ball in that game 5 vs PHX that I mentioned above with all on the line. He was single covered, recognized that and shot the ball. The fact that he shoots when single covered and passes when double teamed shows an excellent read of the defense and understanding of the game. He was also creating a whole bunch of GW shot opportunities whether directly or indirectly. You have to give as much credit to the shot creator as you do to the shot maker especially when the shot creator is creating good looks.

Mario Elie on the kiss of death:

http://www.foxsportshouston.com/03/22/12/Olajuwon-dreamed-Rockets-to-championship/landing_rockets.html?blockID=694092&feedID=3714

Sam Cassell's GW 3 vs New York in the 1994 finals was assisted by Hakeem because he sucked the defense in. Same goes for Hakeem assisting Robert Horry's GW in game 1 vs San Antonio in 1995 and the GW 3 vs Orlando in the finals. Here’s Horry commenting on the shot:


http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1995_1280188/in-the-clutch-champs-shift-into-high-gear-players.html

Kenny Smith’s barrage of 3s in game 1 of the finals was a result of Hakeem getting so much defensive attention which got him great looks and eventually gave him confidence and rhythm (an intangible).


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1995-06-09/sports/9506090300_1_orlando-magic-magic-fans-sidney-green

All the above are positive intangibles rather than a flaw since it's benefiting your teammates and they can testify that.

As usual absolutely outstanding analysis and backing of your opinion. To say I disagree would almost be an insult, but I do want to try and expand on my perspective. It's not that I think you're wrong, it's that I don't agree entirely with the opinions of the people you've presented (all more qualified to opine than I) nor the conclusions you draw from the instances you articulate.

First the idea that Colangelo or anyone else would claim Barkley cost them a title is insulting. He is the only reason that franchise ever sniffed the finals post merger. His flaws are what they are, regardless, he always competed at the highest level. Is this my opinion? yes. But it'd be tough to talk me out of it, I didn't miss many significant Suns games from 92-96. As it was said recently, Barkley was an artist, a creative spirit and to change anything about how he operated is to stifle that creative genius.

Moving on, the intangibles I speak of are mostly centered around Barkley;s indomitable will. The drive and passion that made him stand out as the elite player during the '92 Olympics, the guy who posts triple doubles in the NBA finals, the guy who wins rebounding titles )or maybe just one, not certain) while being 3 inches below the league average for a player at the forward position.

Barkley was nowhere near as skilled or gifted as Hakeem overall, yet his impact was comparable from the time they were drafted through 1993, at which point Barkley was widely considered the NBA's best player not making commercials with Spike Lee.

Again, your argument is better, but my opinion is still the same. I am biased I suppose. I was in my testosterone prime during that era, still the indelible marks these superstars left (right or wrong) during the moment are hard to shake.

As for Hakeem. You are, as expected, spot on. However I think you miss something, or at least don't consider it as significant as I. He didn't always, or even usually make the right pass out of the double team in 1993. The vast majority (not backed up by any research, but solely my recollection) of the time he just kicked it right back out. He rarely squared to the basket (thus teams ran baseline doubles frequently and sagged of the ball-side entry passer) and he had few fakes to stall or relieve the help defense. By 1994, in retrospect, I must concede he had figured it out.

As for the Schayes play, Danny had no weak side help, leaving Hakeem would have meant a dunk, not a mismatch. Schayes would have stayed home on Greg Ostertag in that instance. Most likely a case of Elie giving appropriate props to the Dream, even if in that case he himself (Elie) deserved the credit obviously. Why the **** were Schayes and Kline their two centers anyway. ****ing Westphal and Colangelo sucked. More bias to be sure.

I'm going to break down every down to the wire playoff game Hakeem and Chuck were in during their respective primes. I want to see if my memory is as biased as your analysis leads me suspect it is.

In the mean time I have to ask...when finding those quotes, did you also research the opposing perspective and quotes to support it?

[NugzHeat3]

GOAT, there's no doubt. I highly respect your opinion on this subject and as a poster in general and I wasn't trying to really convince you to change your mind, just offering a different perspective.

re: Intangibles

I think the positive intangibles you mentioned are something I agree with. He added toughness to a team that was considered a bit soft prior to the trade despite being a pretty successful team and I believe they were more feared as a result. However, I do believe he came with a bit of baggage too. Most notably his effort or lack thereof is an intangible because defense is rarely measured on stats and he wasn

[ShaqAttack3234]

82 vs 83 Moses is tough. I don't think there was really much, if any difference between the two. He focused more on defense and rebounding in 83 because of the lightened offensive load, but I don't think he was any less capable of scoring, or any less capable of defense or rebounding the previous year. If there is a difference, it's minimal. Either way he was pretty clearly the best player from 81-83 to me.

I'm not sure there was really a difference in Moses as a player in '82 and '83 either.

In '82, he had a decent team with some quality players such as Elvin Hayes, Robert Reid, Calvin Murphy, Allen Leavell and Mike Dunleavy, but that wasn't going to win a title in '82.

The difference in talent with his '83 Sixers is massive with Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks and Bobby Jones.

While he was the only true all-star on his '83 Rockets, he was now one of 4 Sixers to actually make the '83 all-star team, and really one of 5 all-star caliber players on that Sixer team since Bobby Jones had made the '81 and '82 all-star teams before his role was reduced and he ultimately ended up being the '83 sixth man of the year.

Unfortunately, I don't have the '82 footage to compare to '83 and really see any differences in his playing style. So I have no idea what possible differences there could be other than Moses not having to carry the team as much with his scoring.

1982- 31.1 ppg, 14.7 rpg, 1.8 apg, 3.6 TO, 1.5 bpg, 0.9 spg, 51.9 FG%, 42 mpg
1983- 24.5 ppg, 15.3 rpg, 1.3 apg, 3.4 TO, 2 bpg, 1.1 spg, 50.1 FG%, 37.5 mpg

But while I don't like per minute stats at all, I will point out the significant difference in minutes. Dropping by 4.5 mpg was most likely a factor in his numbers and was clearly due to going from a 46-36 Houston team that didn't even outscore opponents(105.9 ppg, 105.9 points allowed) to a 65-17 Philadelphia team that outscored opponents by 7.7 ppg.

So stats aren't a good way to compare these seasons or rank them. It is interesting that Moses shot better in '82, though.

Moses did also raise his game in the '83 playoffs averaging 26 ppg, 15.8 rpg, 1.5 apg, 3.1 TO, 1.9 bpg, 1.5 spg, 53.6 FG% while leading Philly to a 12-1 record.

He had the disappointing 3 game mini-series in '82, but that's a very small sample size, it was also a stupid format, imo and not enough to really determine much about what kind of player he was.


I think 79, 81-83 he was the best. I wouldn't really have a problem with someone saying he was the best in 80, though I do think Kareem had a freak year that gets a bit overlooked in 80. However in 84 and 85 Bird was quite clearly the best in the league to me.

Well, Moses was the best player in the league 2 years, imo. '82 and '83 when he was clearly the best. I'd say Kareem was probably 2nd, or possibly Bird, but everyone seemed a clear step below Moses those 2 seasons.

However, I'd say Kareem was the best in '79, clearly the best in '80, and still the best in '81.

By '84 and '85, Bird was clearly the best, imo.

[G.O.A.T]

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]re: Intangibles

I think the positive intangibles you mentioned are something I agree with. He added toughness to a team that was considered a bit soft prior to the trade despite being a pretty successful team and I believe they were more feared as a result. However, I do believe he came with a bit of baggage too. Most notably his effort or lack thereof is an intangible because defense is rarely measured on stats and he wasn

[G.O.A.T]

[QUOTE=NugzHeat3]re: opposing perspective

Can you specify what you're referring to when you say this? In regards to the Barkley's intangibles or the opposing team

[NugzHeat3]

re: defense

I agree he's a poor on-ball defender. He was voted the worst defender in the league in 1996 and one of the 10 worst of all time by GMs, coaches, FO personnel and sportswriters though I personally wouldn't go that far. http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1310&dat=19961017&id=NExWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HOsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3869,4395905

I think he did have a couple of nice (pull the chair) moves against the low post player and given effort he could make a big defensive play. He also didn't give good position that easily. I'm not sure If I wouldn't call him a poor team defender though (often messed up rotations, effort lacking in getting back) although defensive rebounding is a part of defense since how a team can play great defense but it turns out to be pointless if they don't close out the possession with a rebound and he was obviously elite in that regard.

re: importance of off court antics

I wouldn't and I don't think people should care about it at all had he won. If it effects his performance and ends up hurting the team which it did in a couple of years (not 1993) and there are people affirming that, I do put stock in it. I'll say Jordan's off court antics had no bearing on how I evaluate him as a player. I vividly remember game 4 vs the Heat in 1997 when he shot 9/35 and there was big speculation it was due to fatigue from playing golf in the scorching hot weather earlier and had that game later come to bite them in the ass, believe me, I'd be critical of him but nitpicking such a game in retrospect seems pointless because he won.

re: physical gifts

I think Barkley was a really unique player and he had physical gifts in his own right. You're right. He was undersized but had a very distinctive combination of speed, size, quickness, leaping and strength. You're talking about perimeter skills in a PF's body (height excluded). Those exceptional qualities really made it hard to distinguish him as a positional player. There were no SFs or PFs in the league that could guard him in single coverage because of his exclusive combination of skill-set and athleticism. I wouldn't really say the bolded are relevant to skill or talent though.

Also, I don't think we should assess his or anyone else's skills relative to other superstars at various positions. I'm not going to call Michael Jordan a weak rebounder because he doesn't rebound at the level of a Shaq, Robinson, Barkley ect. Relative to position, Barkley was great and that's what I'm looking for. I look at Barkley's ball handling, a bit out of control and sloppy it might be, but I look at it as a bonus and an edge that separates him from a contemporary PF like Karl Malone for example (prime wise).

re: past rep

I definitely believe Hakeem's rep from 1992 impacted his perception during the 1993 season which is unfair but given the context of the situation, it's also expected. You're talking about a guy who lost to Brad Daugherty in All-NBA voting like you alluded to as well as someone who . Another big and probably the biggest one is the Houston GM accusing him of faking a hamstring injury for a contract ploy. That impacted his rep and I think the Heat were reluctant to give up a couple of valuable assets for him.

I don't think going into that season anyone could've said this would be the beginning of his peak and nobody does a 180 on a player instantly as it takes awhile for them to accept change and view the player differently. During say, January 1993, Hakeem's struggles with the Rockets' organization were fresh in everyone's mind and we should also remember that they weren't on national TV at all aside from the season opener in Japan vs Seattle. In retrospect though, it's very much clear to me how elite of a season he had and that's why I changed my opinion on him. I will say that I'm not completely alone in my view and it's not a complete revisionist standpoint either as you can look at the quotes so there are people that did recognize and comment on the season he had.

re: Missing Horry on the double

Are you referring to the play at 16:55 or another? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEGvKVNoJ8E

He got triple teamed right off the catch. I think kicking the ball out to Maxwell was a wise decision. He didn't have enough time to really square up here since they came at him right away. Seattle throughout that series were doubling him off the catch from a variety of angles instead of waiting to help till he puts the ball on the floor.

re: struggles in the clutch

Right here, I think you're being overly critical. For one, I'd like to say that Barkley has an edge in being a go to guy in a GW situation because of his superior perimeter skills. If given single coverage and the ball in their respective favorite spots, i.e, Hakeem gets single coverage like on the play in the video above right before the play I referred to where Hakeem nails a jump hook over Sam Perkins to cut the lead down to 1, I think Hakeem may even be ahead of Barkley but overall, I'd take Barkley.

Secondly, I will say this a fair criticism (and props for the research) but not to the extent I think it is. I'm not as concerned with 1987-1992 Hakeem here since offensively, he was radically superior and slightly different stylistically during his peak years of 1993-1995. It's possible his improved self approaches some of those plays differently, s a distinctive way of reading and reacting to the defense. I will say that stats also don't paint the entire picture here. For example, throughout the 1993 playoffs, Rockets had poor guard play. No quality back up as Sam Cassell had not been drafted yet, Vernon Maxwell missed the Clipper series save for game 4 and played with wrist injury throughout the playoffs and this is further magnified because they were going up against two teams that emphasized pressure defense and made it harder to get the ball into Hakeem so it's possible Hakeem not having a big 4th quarter or getting the ball down the stretch might have nothing to do with his own self but because of his teammates inability to get the ball to him.

Here is an excerpt from game 5 of the Rockets vs Clippers series which they obviously won:

The way the Los Angeles Clippers see it, the Rockets will go as far in the NBA playoffs as Hakeem Olajuwon can take them and as far as their erratic ballhandling will let them go.
The Clippers tried a variety of defensive measures on Olajuwon, but nothing stopped him for long. But the Clippers did employ a pressing defense at times that forced turnovers and kept the ball from getting into Olajuwon's hands.
The Rockets were in control of Saturday's series-ending playoff game with a 16-point lead early in the fourth quarter. But shortly thereafter Clippers coach Larry Brown called for the press, the Rockets went on one of their turnover binges, and the game turned around.
Los Angeles rallied to lead in the final minute before the Rockets recovered to win 84-80 at The Summit.
In the fourth quarter, the Rockets had 11 turnovers and were outscored 24-17.
Clippers guard Lester Conner, who played the final 11 minutes of the game, said: "We had to make something happen to try to scramble the game. We got where we wanted to be and had a chance to go up two (with 1:17 to go) with (Ron) Harper's free throw."
Harper, who had scored on a fast-break drive to give the Clippers an 80-79 lead, missed his chance at a three-point play, and the Rockets' Vernon Maxwell followed with a 3-pointer from the right side that put the Rockets ahead for good.
But what does the victory say for the Rockets? They were pushed to the limit to win this series against a .500 team that was looking forward to being dismantled in the offseason.
"They have a chance to go very far," said Conner, a former Rocket. "But Rudy (Tomjanovich) will have to be figuring out what to do against pressure.
"When they play a better team than we are, I don't know if they'll be able to deal with it (the press). We got a couple of victories with it, and we came within one shot of beating them today. They are beatable."
Forward Kenny Norman said: "I don't think the best team won, but that Olajuwon is unbelievable. I didn't realize he was that good."
Asked if Olajuwon deserves to be the league's Most Valuable Player, Norman said: "I said (Charles) Barkley all year, but I'm wondering now. That man (Olajuwon) is Superman."
Norman, who is not usually an outside shooter, was 2-for-2 on 3-point shots and scored 14 points.
Although he did not play the final 11 minutes of the game, he had no complaints because "Lester and the small lineup got us back in the game."
But there was no stopping the Rockets' big man, Olajuwon, who scored 31 points for the day and went 3-for-4 from the floor in the fourth quarter.
Stanley Roberts, who took turns with Danny Manning trying to guard Olajuwon, said: "He's going to do what it takes to win. There really is no stopping him."
Said Manning: "Hakeem had a great year and a great series. I think he will even play better as the playoffs move on. Defensively, I never was really able to stop him, but then again, there are not many players that have."
http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1993_1128459

Of course, this goes back to the fact that like I've said many times before, a player who can handle the ball and create from the get-go will naturally have an edge over the post-player that needs the ball delivered to him which is why I side with Barkley.

[NugzHeat3]

Also, I will say Barkley is not free of criticism this regard either. The same way you refer to G4 of the Clipper series, I could point to instances in the 1993 playoffs where Barkley's performance throughout the 4th was highly questionable. In the Lakers 86-81 G2 victory, they had PHX to a record low 11 pts in the 4th quarter with Barkley going 0/7 from the field for 0 pts. Game 3 which they won, the article stated how he was 0/11 in 4th quarter shots until he finally broke the dry spell.
"And Barkley, on the other end, had missed four consecutive, stand-still jump shots. Barkley at this point was 0 for 11 in fourth-quarter shots.
If not Miller, who is nearly as round as Barkley, the Suns might have expired. Instead, Miller cherry-picked after a long Lakers miss, and Barkley found him for a dunk. Then Barkley finally broke the ice with a rebound basket of his own. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/05/sports/pro-basketball-suns-hold-off-lakers-and-a-quick-ouster.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm

re: Hakeem's passing
Game from Dec, 1992 with Houston commentators Worrell and Calvin Murphy. At 4:10, they agree upon the fact that Hakeem was reading the defense better this year than he had in years in the past. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-FbhBM9uvU

This was pretty early in the season too and he'd only improve from here which reflects in the Rockets record as they went 41-11 to close out the season after a mediocre 14-16 start. It's likely they were getting acclimatized to Rudy T and his system.

[NugzHeat3]

re: Opposing perspective on Barkley's rep and conditioning

In general, this is much harder to find mainly because you need to subscribe to the local paper. For the Houston chron, Orlando Sentinel, Chicago Tribune, Philly inquirer, Seattle news times, you don't need to subscribe to view the archives so I can research regarding those respective teams fairly easily.

I will say you can get a general idea and perspective on Barkley's status but I can't go in depth as I could with others because of the relative lack of resources. I will say that back then, Barkley was usually considered top 2.

Here's some that I was able to find although the majority of this stuff I was already aware of and you might be as well:


Philadelphia Inquirer - May 25, 1993

Energized by a sturdy power forward who might be the best player in the game, the Suns beat the Seattle SuperSonics, 105-91, in the first game of the ....

Philadelphia Inquirer - Jun 8, 1993
Jackson coaches the best player on the planet, Westphal the second-best.

Suns point guard Kevin Johnson on Barkley: "I didn't realize how good Charles was until I played with him. He cleans up all our mistakes." http://articles.courant.com/1993-03-21/sports/0000104322_1_rockets-hakeem-olajuwon-otis-thorpe/2

Arizona Daily Star - Jun 9, 1993
"Those guys are the best two players in the world. They are two of the most entertaining and exciting players in the world. If I wasn't involved in this, I'd definitely be glued to the TV watching those guys."


Once, when Sixers owner Harold Katz told Barkley he had no problems with his performance on the court, Sir Charles said, "You shouldn't. I'm one of the five best players on the planet."
Suns president Jerry Colangelo thinks Barkley might be shortchanging
himself with that assessment.
"As far as I'm concerned, we got the second-best player in the world on our team," Colangelo said, reserving the top spot for everyone's No. 1, Michael Jordan. "I know Patrick Ewing and Hakeem Olajuwon and David Robinson aren't going to like that, but Charles is the second-best player in the NBA. And without a doubt, he's the most unique."

Ironically, the odd package of contradictions that is Charles Wade Barkley might never have been assembled had he not been drafted by the team he now holds in disdain.
By his own admission, Barkley got by on talent during his career at Auburn. He was the "Round Mound of Rebound," a habitually overweight sensation who dominated simply because he had the ability to do so.
Noted perfectionist Bob Knight, who coached the U. S. basketball team to a gold medal in the 1984 Olympics, so resented Barkley's lack of focus that he dismissed him.
Only 6-4 1/2, Barkley was nearly 300 pounds when Pat Williams, then the Sixers' general manager, took him with the No. 5 pick in the first round of the 1984 draft.


http://articles.philly.com/1993-03-03/sports/25950387_1_perry-and-andrew-lang-barkley-blasts-sixers-owner-harold-katz/2
Conditioning related stuff:


A sportswriter from a daily newspaper who covers Barkley regularly attempted to make small talk. He spoke innocently. But his words were subject to misinterpretation.
"Hi, Charles," he said. "Are you finally going to start earning your pay?"
Barkley seemed to raise his chin and shoulders at the same time. He roared as he moved down the remaining 15 feet of the corridor to the dressing-room door.
...
But he is older now, and far more brittle. All summer, reports filtered back from Philadelphia that Barkley wasn't really following the special exercise program designed to cure the back pains that hampered his play last season.
....
How did he play?
There is only one answer to that. Barkley played hard. That's the way he always plays. To him, everything is a physical challenge. He must prove that he can leap higher, run faster and shoot straighter than anyone else on the floor.
The Charles Barkley we all know can't let the game come to him. He has to take charge. He has to play big minutes. And when the game is on the line, he wants the ball.
There was a time when all this came naturally.
Now, he is admittedly out of playing shape.
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/1994-12-01/news/barkley-s-underbelly/


Dallas Morning News - Oct 13, 1994
"I didn't neglect my rehab," Barkley said, responding to reports that he may have cut back training when he left Arizona. "I told them I was going to Philadelphia and do it, and that was the final decision. It's too hot to be in Phoenix during the summer. I play golf everyday, I'm not going to go out in that sun. "


Kingman Daily Miner - Oct 9, 1994
It was a far cry from the 1993 camp. Barkley reported out of shape and collapsed during wind sprints the second day.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Ky1QAAAAIBAJ&sjid=3FYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4257,1573676&dq=barkley+conditioning&hl=en

Before the game, Barkley talks about this Suns team, his game, Alonzo Mourning, Colin Powell and just about anything else that comes up. With Charles, there are no questions without answers.
"I think this is the best team we've had since my first year in Phoenix," Barkley said.
Are you the same player?
"Those are the distant memories," he said. "But I think I'm going to play well. I've been very encouraged the last two weeks."
The operation set Barkley back and he went to camp overweight. His daily 18 or 36 holes of golf did nothing for his conditioning.
"I hurt in the morning," Barkley said. "Once I get up and get going, I feel pretty good. Getting old is part of life. That does not bother me. The only thing that bothers me is my skills are deteriorating. That bothers me. A lot of these other bleep players are gaining on me." http://articles.philly.com/1995-11-09/sports/25683012_1_bleep-suns-elusive-nba-championship/2

Suns' Westphal forcing Barkley to practice Basketball notes
Author: Kent McDill
Date: December 19, 1995
Publication: Daily Herald
Section: Sports
Page: 2
Even with the new collective bargaining agreement, NBA teams still cannot fire all the players, so Phoenix coach Paul Westphal is in trouble because his Suns are playing so poorly.
In an attempt to save his job, Westphal instituted a "no practice, no start and maybe no play" policy last week. The idea was to design cohesiveness on a team that has seemed disheveled.
Westphal's new rule sounds good, but it was aimed directly at Charles Barkley and Kevin Johnson, who have regularly skipped practices the last few years http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=ADHB&p_theme=adhb&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=0ED0272679023C12&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

[oolalaa]

This is a really phenomenal discussion on Barkley/Hakeem. I've learned a lot of little things that I didn't know about both players.


Btw, NugzHeat3....

I've never seen someone back up their claims with articles, videos and quotes as much as you do. Seemingly every opinion you have is backed up by reems of evidence, and you are clearly intelligent, objective and for the most part unbiased. This board need A LOT MORE posters like you.

(Sorry if this ^ seems like I'm splooging all over you :oldlol: )


And you too, G.O.A.T. I highly respect your opinion. You're one of the outstanding posters on this board.


Keep it up guys :cheers:

[houston]

barkley ain't better than hakeem

[jlip]

In honor of Moses Malone I felt it appropriate to bump this thread about his greatness.

[72-10]

OP, I am curious to know where you found this game-specific information?