ESPN: Move Melo to his Natural Position, Power Forward

[eliteballer]

http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/48375/memo-to-knicks-melo-is-a-power-forward

[ncrizzle]

http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/gallery/me-gusta/me-gusta-original.png

[Real Men Wear Green]

If Melo averages 7 boards next year he'll be doing an excellent job. You can't be a "natural" pf if you have no hope of hitting 8 rpg in a starters role and will foul out every game you are forced to guard an 18+ppg scorer at your alleged position.

[DuMa]

yes i agree. if Lebron can get away with it, no reason why Melo cant.

[Smoke117]

It's not a natural position when you would be considered more of a tweener more than anything. He wouldn't rebound enough and his defense would be crap.

[chips93]

If Melo averages 7 boards next year he'll be doing an excellent job. You can't be a "natural" pf if you have no hope of hitting 8 rpg in a starters role and will foul out every game you are forced to guard an 18+ppg scorer at your alleged position.


not sure that matters

if melo is more effective at the four, and his teammates can make up for his deficeincies at pf, who cares if he looks like a typical power forward

positions are becoming redundant

[CelticBaller]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Then you play Amar'e at Center? Tyson on the bench LOL.

[Sarcastic]

He's never been a power forward, other than spot duty when players went down.

Next ESPN is gonna call Dirk Nowitzki a shooting guard.

[PP34Deuce]

Melo is a prototype sf tho. Legit 6 8 and 240 thick build. Can drive and post up and hit the 3

[DaSeba5]

I guess he could play PF in key moments.

[Real Men Wear Green]

not sure that matters

if melo is more effective at the four, and his teammates can make up for his deficeincies at pf, who cares if he looks like a typical power forward

positions are becoming redundant
How could regularly being in foul trouble and struggling to rebound not matter? And who is going to make up for the deficiencies in rebounding and defense? Not to mention one of the other two big-money players would have to go to the bench.

[chips93]

How could regularly being in foul trouble and struggling to rebound not matter? And who is going to make up for the deficiencies in rebounding and defense? Not to mention one of the other two big-money players would have to go to the bench.


you just need more from other players to make it work (fwiw im not talking about melo specifically, just players moving positions)

so melo grabs one or two less boards than a typical pf, you just need your sf and center to pick uo the slack

how many teams have two legit post up threats? just put melo on the weaker one, or get a sf who can cover pfs, and put melo on the other teams sf

you dont need guys who fit outdated ideas of what certain positions should do. you just need team of guys who can fill the roles of a team.

thats becoming clear.

[scm5]

NYK would improve a lot if they could trade Amare for for someone like Andre Iguodala.

That might actually be a trade that works out well for both teams.

[FreezingTsmoove]

No joke I watched a lot of Knicks game Carmelo plays the 4 amazing

[ZenMaster]

Too bad it won't happen on a regular basis as long as they have both him and Stoudemire.

[scm5]

Too bad it won't happen on a regular basis as long as they have both him and Stoudemire.

STAT for Iggy!

Do it Dolan!

[Real Men Wear Green]

you just need more from other players to make it work (fwiw im not talking about melo specifically, just players moving positions)

so melo grabs one or two less boards than a typical pf, you just need your sf and center to pick uo the slack

how many teams have two legit post up threats? just put melo on the weaker one, or get a sf who can cover pfs, and put melo on the other teams sf

you dont need guys who fit outdated ideas of what certain positions should do. you just need team of guys who can fill the roles of a team.

thats becoming clear.
1: This would complete invalidate the idea that Anthony is a "natural" pf.

2: Just because a guy doesn't have Hakeem's arsenal doesn't mean he can't score on someone 4+ inches shorter and 20 lbs. lighter. If the opponent has a reasonably skilled center and a 4 that scores Anthony will have defensive problems and thus foul trouble.

3: The only SF on NY that's especially good at rebounding is Melo, ironically enough. Also if Melo is PF Chandler is alone defending the basket. NY's smallball line-ups would rely on offense like most smallball line-ups, they'd just be tryng to make a mismatch defensively somewhere as the d would suffer.

[Yung D-Will]

Espn

[chips93]

1: This would complete invalidate the idea that Anthony is a "natural" pf.

my argument was that a 'natural' anything, is redundant.


The only SF on NY that's especially good at rebounding is Melo, ironically enough. Also if Melo is PF Chandler is alone defending the basket. NY's smallball line-ups would rely on offense like most smallball line-ups, they'd just be tryng to make a mismatch defensively somewhere as the d would suffer.


the point is that the defensive shortcomings are overcome by the improved offense.

the stats bear this out, in that NYKs two best lineups that melo was part of, had melo at the 4)

http://www.82games.com/1112/11NYK10.HTM

[kurple]

melo is not a fulltime 4. i have watched more than enough of him to know this

[Real Men Wear Green]

my argument was that a 'natural' anything, is redundant.




the point is that the defensive shortcomings are overcome by the improved offense.

the stats bear this out, in that NYKs two best lineups that melo was part of, had melo at the 4)

http://www.82games.com/1112/11NYK10.HTM
Your stats are based on 26 and 29 minutes, total, over a 66-game season. That's just situational basketball. Unless you think Bibby should have been starting as well?

[Kiddlovesnets]

lol then how are they gonna deal with Amare and Chandler?
:lol

[kurple]

no way is amare ok with coming off the bench, and moving chandler to the bench is baaad for the team

i dont see the point

[swi7ch]

Proves without a doubt ESPN analysts are really clowns in suits.

[L8k3r5]

:oldlol: at Melo being a natural PF. He can at some moments but it is definitely not his primary position.

[chips93]

Your stats are based on 26 and 29 minutes, total, over a 66-game season. That's just situational basketball. Unless you think Bibby should have been starting as well?


third most used lineup was the one i was refering to

[AAckley1]

And it begins....Amare hasn't been spectacular enough for ESPN, so they're going to run their smear campaign until Knicks fans & ownership clamor for his trade or amnesty.

Sports Media Propaganda

[Y2Gezee]

1: This would complete invalidate the idea that Anthony is a "natural" pf.

2: Just because a guy doesn't have Hakeem's arsenal doesn't mean he can't score on someone 4+ inches shorter and 20 lbs. lighter. If the opponent has a reasonably skilled center and a 4 that scores Anthony will have defensive problems and thus foul trouble.

3: The only SF on NY that's especially good at rebounding is Melo, ironically enough. Also if Melo is PF Chandler is alone ending the basket. NY's smallball line-ups would rely on offense like most smallball line-ups, they'd just be tryng to make a mismatch defensively somewhere as the d would suffer.

Melo was primarily a pf and guarded KG man on man when he racked up a triple double vs Boston last year. He's big enough and physical enough to guard pfs in this league, add in his quickness advantage and knowledge of the post game in terms of positioning and how refs call it, and it is probably the easiest for him to defend. He's showcasing it now in the Olympics.

People in the know and dont just speculate know that Melo's defensive issues have never been defending a man one on one whether it be positions 2-4. The problem is hours focus on help or team d, where he will miss rotations. But, when focused he can be effective there too, and was once Woodson took over. The Knicks were an improved defense under D'antoni with Chandler and Woodson as the defensive coordinator, but they kicked it up a few notches when Melo stepped it up after the coaching change on defense both when he was Sf and amare and lin were carrying the scoring while Melo slumped, and at pf when Lin and Amare both went out and Melo played MVP level ball to end the year. He's also a good rebounder, I dont think he's that big a liability playing next to Chandler.

But on this team, he has to be sf of course.

[Arroyo8]

agree 100 percet

[knickswin]

And it begins....Amare hasn't been spectacular enough for ESPN, so they're going to run their smear campaign until Knicks fans & ownership clamor for his trade or amnesty.

Sports Media Propaganda

amar'e has been given a raw deal. he really pissed me off this year with his play, but even I have to admit he isn't as bad as he played. He was really pretty great in 2010. played like a top 10 player in the league. he has his weaknesses, but he has a lot of strengths too. he is great in the pick and roll and in the paint and there have been seasons where his jumper was very good. he also was capable of playing within the flow of an offense which is huge.

that said ... he is a bad fit next to tyson and melo and the knicks don't really have a need for him. the knicks should probably trade him. it is a pity his trade value is so low right now because he could still be an exceptional player for the right team.

[Rowe]

:oldlol: at Melo being a natural PF. He can at some moments but it is definitely not his primary position.

PF will be Melo's position as he gets older.

Melo at his size is struggling each season to maintain his listed "playing weight" of 230lbs. While he had no problem with this when he was 22 or 23 years old he is having problems with this because naturally as he ages his weight changes with it.

The last 2 seasons he finished at over 250lbs. He's trying to slim down heading into next season but that means he can only do conditioning instead of work in the weight room. For a guy who plays the way he does as a bullying Forward who sets his feet and can't be moved off the block in isolations, he needs that muscle.

On the other hand, LeBron's listed "playing weight" is 250lbs but I'm convinced he is playing at 265/270lbs towards the end of each of the past 2 seasons. He came in to workout during last offseason at 274lbs, according to Wade's trainer, which is a sign right that his body also is getting bigger and it requires far more work to keep his weight close to what his playing weight is listed as.

[pauk]

yes i agree. if Lebron can get away with it, no reason why Melo cant.

Lebron doesnt "get away with it", he is begged/asked to do it as he can dominate it against most NBA powerforwards.... unlike Carmelo... and can defend any powerforward significantly better than Carmelo due to size/strength/athleticism and most importantly defensive IQ...

Carmelo can somewhat get away with it on international level (personally i think he does a horrible job there to especially defensively, but ok) but in the NBA... not..

[Rowe]

amar'e has been given a raw deal. he really pissed me off this year with his play, but even I have to admit he isn't as bad as he played. He was really pretty great in 2010. played like a top 10 player in the league. he has his weaknesses, but he has a lot of strengths too. he is great in the pick and roll and in the paint and there have been seasons where his jumper was very good. he also was capable of playing within the flow of an offense which is huge.

that said ... he is a bad fit next to tyson and melo and the knicks don't really have a need for him. the knicks should probably trade him. it is a pity his trade value is so low right now because he could still be an exceptional player for the right team.

It's not Melo or Chandler's fault.

The problem with Amare is what he's adressing right now due to orders from Mike Woodson that he must work on a post game. He's struggling because he can't get to the basket the way he did during his early years with the explosiveness he had.

You gotta remember he is going into his 11th NBA season and will be 30.

He could raise his trade value if he showed an ability to post up and score or at the least draw fouls like he did at times during the 2010 WCF vs LA. But we wouldn't have any need to trade him because if Amare learns anything from what Hakeem will try to show him, Amare could average 25 PPG again in the NBA.

[Linspired]

Melo is a prototype sf tho. Legit 6 8 and 240 thick build. Can drive and post up and hit the 3

melo is 6ft 6 1/4 barefoot

[Rowe]

Lebron doesnt "get away with it", he is begged/asked to do it as he can dominate it against most NBA powerforwards.... unlike Carmelo... and can defend any powerforward significantly better than Carmelo due to size/strength/athleticism and most importantly defensive IQ...

Carmelo can somewhat get away with it on international level (personally i think he does a horrible job there to especially defensively, but ok) but in the NBA... not..

:lol Melo has had far superior post skills to LeBron throughout the course of their NBA careers. If Melo played PF full-time he would dominate them because he will bring them 10-15 feet out from the basket on isolations. We all know he's the best scorer in the NBA in the triple threat, but now you put slower defenders on him at PF with worse defensive skills away from the basket. This means a lot of pumpfakes and a lot of times where Melo will drive to the basket and get them on his hip. Im not even counting the times where he'll bring them out to the perimeter attempting to guard him because Melo is still a threat to shoot the 3. It would open up more opportunities for the High Screen & Roll with Chandler or Amare that showed a lot of potential this past year.


They begged LeBron to try to play PF so they could find a way to make him useful off the ball instead of him being a ball dominant Forward who relies entirely on steamrolling to the rim. Eventually, one day he won't be able to do this consistently as was shown in the 2011 NBA Finals where he "choked". It wasn't as much of a "choke" as it was the fact Dallas' defense was exposing how reliant he is on his physical ability. Smart thing to lengthen his career would've been to have a post game to utilize. Now that he has worked on his post game that glaring weakness in his game can't be brought up anymore.

[Rowe]

melo is 6ft 6 1/4 barefoot

Because NBA players play barefoot.

[ILLsmak]

PF will be Melo's position as he gets older.

Melo at his size is struggling each season to maintain his listed "playing weight" of 230lbs. While he had no problem with this when he was 22 or 23 years old he is having problems with this because naturally as he ages his weight changes with it.

The last 2 seasons he finished at over 250lbs. He's trying to slim down heading into next season but that means he can only do conditioning instead of work in the weight room. For a guy who plays the way he does as a bullying Forward who sets his feet and can't be moved off the block in isolations, he needs that muscle.

On the other hand, LeBron's listed "playing weight" is 250lbs but I'm convinced he is playing at 265/270lbs towards the end of each of the past 2 seasons. He came in to workout during last offseason at 274lbs, according to Wade's trainer, which is a sign right that his body also is getting bigger and it requires far more work to keep his weight close to what his playing weight is listed as.

Think it's major bullshit no matter what age someone is to think that they can't hit weights without putting on weight. If dude is putting on 20 pounds each season, that's not because of lifting weights unless he keeps coming back more and more ridiculously jacked.

He's probably not taking conditioning seriously and/or partying too much.

I dunno why these NBA guys don't eat right ALL OF THE TIME. I started eating right at about age 25, like really, really eating right... and I think it makes a huge difference. When you have guys who will cook for you that's even better.

-Smak

[airchibundo507]

If Melo averages 7 boards next year he'll be doing an excellent job. You can't be a "natural" pf if you have no hope of hitting 8 rpg in a starters role and will foul out every game you are forced to guard an 18+ppg scorer at your alleged position.

He averaged 30/9 as the player of the month last April, playing solid defense at the 4 as well. That was without both Amare and Lin.

So shut the fck up biased idiot

[NumberSix]

Damn. I thought his natural position was at the front of a fishing boat. Weird.

[knickswin]

It's not Melo or Chandler's fault.

The problem with Amare is what he's adressing right now due to orders from Mike Woodson that he must work on a post game. He's struggling because he can't get to the basket the way he did during his early years with the explosiveness he had.

You gotta remember he is going into his 11th NBA season and will be 30.

He could raise his trade value if he showed an ability to post up and score or at the least draw fouls like he did at times during the 2010 WCF vs LA. But we wouldn't have any need to trade him because if Amare learns anything from what Hakeem will try to show him, Amare could average 25 PPG again in the NBA.

it's not melo's or chandler's fault ... it's knicks' management's fault. amar'e is what he is. we saw in 2010-2011 how good he can be in the right system. he is an elite finisher and pick and roll big who knows how to play without the ball and within a system. on the other hand, he's lousy in a half court offense. he just shouldn't be playing next to tyson and melo. simple as that. if the knicks wanted both amar'e and melo, then they needed to get bogut or marc gasol. it wouldn't be an ideal fit, but bogut and gasol are two guys who could kind of make that front court work.

[knickswin]

it's not so much that he needs to play pf as he needs to play like a big. he is one of the most talented power threes ever (it's him or bernard imo ...) he should not be at the perimeter. it doesn't really matter if he plays the three or four ... ideally you have him play the three with a stretch four so he's guarding small forwards.

[Rowe]

Think it's major bullshit no matter what age someone is to think that they can't hit weights without putting on weight. If dude is putting on 20 pounds each season, that's not because of lifting weights unless he keeps coming back more and more ridiculously jacked.

He's probably not taking conditioning seriously and/or partying too much.

I dunno why these NBA guys don't eat right ALL OF THE TIME. I started eating right at about age 25, like really, really eating right... and I think it makes a huge difference. When you have guys who will cook for you that's even better.

-Smak

You gotta remember they are on the road constantly for about 7 months.

Its probably hard to maintain the same training routine, eating habits, etc over that span of time. Some guys can do it with much better dedication and these guys last a long time in the league as their bodies hold up. But for the most part a lot of these young NBA players do fall into the trap of being lazy and having fun instead of working. Just a week or 2 ago LeBron threw an all-white dress code party in the Howard theatre in DC immediately after Team USA played Brazil. Sponsored by Grey Goose vodka btw.:lol Thats their lifestyle.

I can imagine these guys do this kind of thing during the NBA season on the road after games or on their lay-over day between games on a road trip.

[Rowe]

it's not melo's or chandler's fault ... it's knicks' management's fault. amar'e is what he is. we saw in 2010-2011 how good he can be in the right system. he is an elite finisher and pick and roll big who knows how to play without the ball and within a system. on the other hand, he's lousy in a half court offense. he just shouldn't be playing next to tyson and melo. simple as that. if the knicks wanted both amar'e and melo, then they needed to get bogut or marc gasol. it wouldn't be an ideal fit, but bogut and gasol are two guys who could kind of make that front court work.

So what seperates Tyson's role from what would've been asked from Bogut or Gasol?

[knickswin]

So what seperates Tyson's role from what would've been asked from Bogut or Gasol?

bogut and gasol can both pass ... they can both post up which would leave amar'e to be the pnr big ... gasol can also shoot with some range which would open up things for amar'e inside ... tyson can't do any of that.

[kentatm]

Because NBA players play barefoot.

:rolleyes:



bogut and gasol can both pass ... they can both post up which would leave amar'e to be the pnr big ... gasol can also shoot with some range which would open up things for amar'e inside ... tyson can't do any of that.


Tyson has an ok jumper from around the FT line. At least he did in Dallas anyway. He also is ok in the P&R. His passing isn't amazing but it's serviceable.

If Tyson worked well with Dirk, the argument could be made that he could be at least somewhat successful with Melo at PF.

I'm not even really a Melo fan but I could see it working. IMO he would need to really dedicate himself to the game though. I just don't see the same work ethic and constant improvement in him that Dirk has had.

[CelticBaller]

Because NBA players play barefoot.
don't even bother, RG is obsessed with height now :lol

[Chrono90]

ESPN is running out of things to write???

Melo is hard to guard at pf but can he guard anyone at pf?

[Y2Gezee]

:rolleyes:





Tyson has an ok jumper from around the FT line. At least he did in Dallas anyway. He also is ok in the P&R. His passing isn't amazing but it's serviceable.

If Tyson worked well with Dirk, the argument could be made that he could be at least somewhat successful with Melo at PF.

I'm not even really a Melo fan but I could see it working. IMO he would need to really dedicate himself to the game though. I just don't see the same work ethic and constant improvement in him that Dirk has had.


Melo and Tyson work great together. I think Amare and Melo can work great together. The problems with Amare's season last year are plentiful, from not rehabbing his back properly and being overweight after lockout, to the Knicks having the worst guard situation in the NBA most of the year, to Tyson taking most of his PnR opportunities. In the D' antoni system he became a jump shooting 4, instead of the ultra quick center he's been much of his career; Tyson took that role, and Melo was the point forward while they started a rookie shooting guard at pg for defensive purposes (though he displayed scoring ability in flashes) and Landry at 2 (and he couldn't shoot). Point is they weren't very well constructed, and even if they wanted to get away with having their sf as their point guard, the guards were useless on offense in terms of ball handling or spacing the floor. They took both stars out if their comfort zone, but didn't have pieces to make it work. But, sacrificial seasons like that happen when you trade so much away for a superstar as they did for Melo.

If they get quality shooting from Kidd, Felton, Novak, and Smith as they will get open looks, I'd say this upcoming seasons roster will be by far the best roster built a around Melo in his career.

[MJ(Mean John)]

Then you play Amar'e at Center? Tyson on the bench LOL.



What about old Marcus?

[kNIOKAS]

...So this means, Amare would be moving to his natural SF?

[bizil]

HELL NO! Melo is the protypical scoring machine SF. In the vein of Nique, Doc, King, English, Dantley, etc. Durant and Melo have that on lock right now. Sure in certain lineups, Melo can play the PF. But there is a certain premium on boards, defense, and toughness at the PF. I don't want Melo up against Aldridge, Pau, Blake, Love, etc. Those guys are natural big men. I don't want Melo banging around even with guys like Nene, Ibaka, Camby, Humphries, etc. Sure he and Bron are big strong dudes at 6'8. But they are big strong SF's who can play PF at times. Or to create a mismatch. Bron happens to be a freakish athlete who plays bigger than his size. But at the same time, 6'8 to 6'10 can be a bigger height advantage than one thinks. Especially when you consider reach, strength, etc.

A guy like Barkley was a freak and was a natural big man in terms of brute strength, nose for boards, etc. A guy like Rodman was 6'8 and 215, the size of a SF. But Rodman was a freak who had an epic nose for boards and playing defense on bigger men. Melo doesn't have that kind of nose for boards or defense at the PF.

One thing that really pisses me off at times is the downsizing of the PF or lack of great centers. Having guys who can rule the boards and defend the paint is so crucial in the game. The PF still has guys who fit the mold, but more and more u are seeing the stretch four more often. Which is fine, but when it leads to saying Bron or Melo should be flat out PF's is ridiculous. International ball is one thing. The NBA is another. It's not just size when it comes to being a PF, it's your skillset as well.

I don't mind a big man like a prime KG with finesse. Because KG was a beast on the boards and on defense. And he had a very good back to basket game. I don't mind Love being a stretch PF on offense because he's a beast on the glass. For me, it's more about how u can defend bigs and hit the glass at PF as opposed to how u score the rock. A guy like Dirk plays the PF because he's 7 foot and 245 pounds. If he was Melo's size, Dirk would be a SF. But Dirk plays PF because he's would have no chance of guarding a SF like a Bron, Melo, or Durant. Your natural position should be the BEST FIT possible when accumulating all of your attributes. And when u accumulate Melo's or a Durant's, it means being a primary SF who can swing to SG or PF at times.

[Real Men Wear Green]

third most used lineup was the one i was refering to
Ok, the Bibby line-up should definitely be ignored anyhow. I don't see how the 58 is a significant difference from the 55s and 54s we're seeing for other groupings, and as that was the Knicks 3rd-most used line how do we know they didn't reserve that for mainly situations where they wouldn't expose Melo to having to deal with a scoring big that could cause him problems?
Melo was primarily a pf and guarded KG man on man when he racked up a triple double vs Boston last year. He's big enough and physical enough to guard pfs in this league, add in his quickness advantage and knowledge of the post game in terms of positioning and how refs call it, and it is probably the easiest for him to defend. He's showcasing it now in the Olympics.

People in the know and dont just speculate know that Melo's defensive issues have never been defending a man one on one whether it be positions 2-4. The problem is hours focus on help or team d, where he will miss rotations. But, when focused he can be effective there too, and was once Woodson took over. The Knicks were an improved defense under D'antoni with Chandler and Woodson as the defensive coordinator, but they kicked it up a few notches when Melo stepped it up after the coaching change on defense both when he was Sf and amare and lin were carrying the scoring while Melo slumped, and at pf when Lin and Amare both went out and Melo played MVP level ball to end the year. He's also a good rebounder, I dont think he's that big a liability playing next to Chandler.

But on this team, he has to be sf of course.
That Celtic game I'm not sure who Melo covered most but Garnett went 7-14 for 20 points. It wasn't a problem because the Knicks had a crazy night shooting the three but normally if you give the Celtics 110 you're going to lose. Maybe Anthony can be a better defender in general but I just don't see a guy his size without extreme athleticism to cover ground and block shots being good for a team defensively at the 4.
He averaged 30/9 as the player of the month last April, playing solid defense at the 4 as well. That was without both Amare and Lin.

So shut the fck up biased idiot
The ability of someone like you to call someone else biased is what makes a troll a troll. Almost every player in the league has some month of outlier stats in their season. Anthony isn't going to average 9 rebounds over a season under any conditions.

[Rowe]

bogut and gasol can both pass ... they can both post up which would leave amar'e to be the pnr big ... gasol can also shoot with some range which would open up things for amar'e inside ... tyson can't do any of that.

Amare should not be exclsuvely a pick & roll big man if he plans on having a longer career in the NBA, espescially as a starter.

If he continues relying on pick & rolls then he is going to continue to decline statistically and will eventually become a bench player on his next team.

Ask yourself. What use is there for a starting PF who has no post game, doesn't rebound, & doesn't defend?