"Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

[Legend of Josh]

Prop. 8 TV ad... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75J3TN9Zzck&feature=related)

Daddy + Daddy = no baby

:no:

("I think you should be spending less time at Megan's house") ... yeah, take away your little girl's friends b/c she's simply asking simple ?'s that a normal 6 year old would ask ... way to go dad!

[Nanners]

hilarious commercial. i would have just told that stupid kid that when two men love each other, one of them shits a baby out of his ass.

[bluechox2]

:lol sweety, just go get ****ed out of your mind while your a teenager, and you will realize that marriage isnt important for a baby

[Legend of Josh]

Secondly... I get so sick and tired of supporters of homosexual marriage always referencing the interracial marriage bullshit. 100% apples and oranges. A white man and black woman can do the whole jungle fever thing and still reproduce, thus, advancing the human race, but when white man and black man do the nasty, well, you know...

The concept is entirely simple. I'm all for equal rights, etc... but "marriage" is and always has been defined as a man and a woman. Why does all that have to change b/c a sect of our society is all butt-hurt (LOL) over this?

[Legend of Josh]

hilarious commercial. i would have just told that stupid kid that when two men love each other, one of them shits a baby out of his ass.

Hilarious!

:rolleyes:

... but honestly though, how would two men properly inform/educate/etc their child on said topic? How do they go about this without instilling deep down confusion and dumbfounding them?

[Swaggin916]

"Look dear, I like to fook dudes just like you will now shut the hell up and stop asking me questions."

That was the simple answer.

[Legend of Josh]

"Look dear, I like to fook dudes just like you will now shut the hell up and stop asking me questions."

That was the simple answer.

Yeah... awesome.

[Ass Dan]

as the great philosopher Furious Styles once remarked:

"Any fool can make a baby, but it takes a man to raise a child."

Give love (even gay love) a chance. Sadly Memphis didn't give Gay-Love a chance, would have been a marketers dream. Instead they opted for a much maligned condiment who has now been banished to the desert where he will no doubt spoil.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Hilarious!

:rolleyes:

... but honestly though, how would two men properly inform/educate/etc their child on said topic? How do they go about this without instilling deep down confusion and dumbfounding them?

Because they're not retarded. :confusedshrug:

[LBJMVP]

what a stupid ad?


what is marriage for?

people who love eachother and want to spend their life together forever. its just a tradition... really has nothing to do with having children, atleast not in todays times.


so if someone is infertile they have no reason to get married? if i couldn't have a child that commercial would probly offend me.

[Big_Dogg]

Secondly... I get so sick and tired of supporters of homosexual marriage always referencing the interracial marriage bullshit. 100% apples and oranges. A white man and black woman can do the whole jungle fever thing and still reproduce, thus, advancing the human race, but when white man and black man do the nasty, well, you know...

The concept is entirely simple. I'm all for equal rights, etc... but "marriage" is and always has been defined as a man and a woman. Why does all that have to change b/c a sect of our society is all butt-hurt (LOL) over this?

Actually it's you who sounds butt hurt about it, why does it affect your life if they allow marriage for same sex couples, why does your opinion matter at all in relation to someone else s life.

If you can't mind your own business and get on with your own life without worrying about everyone else, why should people care what you think or give any credence to your opinion.

[Legend of Josh]

as the great philosopher Furious Styles once remarked:

"Any fool can make a baby, but it takes a man to raise a child."

Give love (even gay love) a chance. Sadly Memphis didn't give Gay-Love a chance, would have been a marketers dream. Instead they opted for a much maligned condiment who has now been banished to the desert where he will no doubt spoil.

There are countless, massive situations where you have children being raised by a single parent, or even worse, a heterosexual couple where the household is corrupt and truly unfit for a healthy upbringing of said children... and I understand that argument against a homosexual marriage in a financially stable, wholesome, etc household, but it's the fundamental principle and strict abomination that makes it unfavorable IMO.

I think psychologically, the average child would be better off in the long haul being in the single parent and/or dysfunctional HH compared to the extravagantly confusing and morally corrupt (sickening, gross, etc) daddy + daddy scenario. Will there be children that "turn out" OK, well off, not extremely confused in the long haul, etc... sure, but I believe there'd be an overwhelmingly populous of estranged child/parent relationships once they're of legal age, etc. I believe many of the children turned into teenagers, turned into young adults, that ultimately detest their life, wondering why in the hell God dealt them a hand that equated to two daddies versus a normal, functional HH of mommy + daddy. (edited)

Not to even mention the amplified likelihood of said children being much more prone to the DECISION of them being homosexuals themselves. LOL, I realize we need population control, but damn, our nation, and the rest of the world will follow down a path of modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. Look, like I said, I'm all for civil rights, equal rights, all the same benefits of straight couples and all that ... but when you recognize marriage and allow same sex partners (especially men) to adopt and raise children that is obviously not their own offspring (and please let's not do the sterile couples thing, going down the apples and oranges path), we're obviously over-crossing "rights" ... there's no "human rights" issue that grants homosexual partners any such right who can't naturally reproduce and raise children they COULD NEVER (for a reason) create on their own.

[Ass Dan]

There are countless, massive situations where you have children being raised by a single parent, or even worse, a heterosexual couple where the household is corrupt and truly unfit for a healthy upbringing of said children... and I understand that argue against two homosexual marriage in a financially stable, wholesome, etc household, but it's the fundamental principle and strict abomination that makes it unfavorable IMO.

I think psychologically, the average child would be better off in the long haul being in the single parent and/or dysfunctional HH compared to the extravagantly confusing and morally corrupt (sickening, gross, etc) daddy + daddy scenario. Will there be children that "turn out" OK, well off, not extremely confused in the long haul, etc... sure, but I believe there'd be an overwhelmingly populous of estranged child/parent relationships once they're of legal age, etc. I believe many of the children turned into teenagers, turned into young adults, that ultimately detest their life, wondering why in the hell God dealt them a hand that equated to two daddies versus a normal, functional HH of mommy + mommy.

Not to even mention the amplified likelihood of said children being much more prone to the DECISION of them being homosexuals themselves. LOL, I realize we need population control, but damn, our nation, and the rest of the world will follow down a path of modern day Sodom and Gomorrah. Look, like I said, I'm all for civil rights, equal rights, all the same benefits of straight couples and all that ... but when you recognize marriage and allow same sex partners (especially men) to adopt and raise children that is obviously not their own offspring (and please let's not do the sterile couples thing, going down the apples and oranges path), we're obviously over-crossing "rights" ... there's no "human rights" issue that grants homosexual partners who can't naturally reproduce to raise children they COULD NEVER (for a reason) create on their own.

Your opinions hold us all back, shame on you. Of course Male-Female loving married parents are ideal, but whent he 'ideal' fails MORE THAN half of the time we need to consider reasonable alternatives.

Being unreasonable when introduced to reason shows a clear lack of reasoning and ignorance.

sad people like you spew as they do.

[Legend of Josh]

Because they're not retarded. :confusedshrug:

I'm not quite following ... b/c you yourself don't see any confusion and/or dismay that could open a door to a potential prolonged mental path of wonder and lack of understanding ... doesn't mean your average 6 year old could comprehend.

Look, I realize we're a nation of progressive thinkers, many of us are open minded, etc. - but there's an obvious road block with explaining the realization and rationale that daddy + daddy is OK and perfectly normal.

I'm seriously asking... looking for serious answers.

[Nanners]

what does a hetero couple tell their 6 year old when they ask where babies come from? i think my parents told me some bullshit story about storks or santa.

[Legend of Josh]

what a stupid ad?

You feel it's a stupid ad... and I'm not saying I don't concur, but I am saying this is a very likely possible outcome of what could (and surely will) happen in many scenarios where daddy + daddy are sitting there on the couch and being asked the ? by little six year old Samantha.

Sure, you're of age and you understand what love is all about and how adults can fully comprehend such a dynamic emotional behavior, but she isn't going to understand. In time, yes, but not at such an early age, and yes, it will alter her "natural" upbringing and how she questions things. Not in all cases with all children, but in most cases it will.

[Legend of Josh]

so if someone is infertile they have no reason to get married? if i couldn't have a child that commercial would probly offend me.

:facepalm

How many times do I have to mention this... A's and O's.

[Legend of Josh]

Actually it's you who sounds butt hurt about it, why does it affect your life if they allow marriage for same sex couples, why does your opinion matter at all in relation to someone else s life.

If you can't mind your own business and get on with your own life without worrying about everyone else, why should people care what you think or give any credence to your opinion.

Why do I care? There are many reasons, most of which are obvious and exactly why billions of others are opposed to the idea.

Excluding all the religious points ... let's just use a practical one. I'm concerned because my children, their children, and then their children, fast forward hundreds of years, etc. ... there's the potential my offspring might be raising their own children in a world where there's less likelihood of them surviving.

Male + Female = life.

Male + Male = no life.

Female + Female = no life.

Is that reason enough to "care" wise guy?

[ace23]

Agree with LoJ.

[Legend of Josh]

Your opinions hold us all back, shame on you. Of course Male-Female loving married parents are ideal, but whent he 'ideal' fails MORE THAN half of the time we need to consider reasonable alternatives.

Being unreasonable when introduced to reason shows a clear lack of reasoning and ignorance.

sad people like you spew as they do.

How am I the one "holding us back" ? ... When it takes a pecker + cooter to make a baby, and not vice versa?

I guess I'm just not seeing the logic in your argument.

[Legend of Josh]

what does a hetero couple tell their 6 year old when they ask where babies come from? i think my parents told me some bullshit story about storks or santa.

I was seeking a more serious response, however as your post proves, when there's no real response that would justify your own personal opinion that same sex couples are just as productive, beneficial, ideal, etc - I get some lame attempt at humor instead.

[Lamar Doom]

I love when single, never-been-married guys drop morals on "what marriage is", of course the absolute bottom line is "how could you possibly give a shit?" but some people do like trying to define and control society. Shit's for the birds though, I don't really want to concern myself with archaic, unevolved arguments that should have been settled last century. Try to catch up boys.

http://www.giantunion.com/image/product/2010332_72dpi_Ingredients_Heinz_TomatoKetchup_Glas sBottle_24x14oz.JPG



hahaha, just read that last post, you're definitely trolling if you're implying that homosexuality is some sort of danger to humanity.

[Legend of Josh]

I love when single, never-been-married guys drop morals on "what marriage is", of course the absolute bottom line is "how could you possibly give a shit?" but some people do like trying to define and control society. Shit's for the birds though, I don't really want to concern myself with archaic, unevolved arguments that should have been settled last century. Try to catch up boys.

http://www.giantunion.com/image/product/2010332_72dpi_Ingredients_Heinz_TomatoKetchup_Glas sBottle_24x14oz.JPG



hahaha, just read that last post, you're definitely trolling if you're implying that homosexuality is some sort of danger to humanity.

Can we please keep this debate on the issue, and not make this into some beef shit? If you have something worthwhile to add, please feel free. I'm not in the mood for your post + picture to try and be a silly little "hey LOJ smash a poster up time!" ... OK?

[Lamar Doom]

Can we please keep this debate on the issue, and not make this into some beef shit? If you have something worthwhile to add, please feel free. I'm not in the mood for your post + picture to try and be a silly little "hey LOJ smash a poster up time!" ... OK?


that was me being fairly serious. Sorry if it's dismissive but I really think your opinion is archaic and barely worth addressing, people's stance on this issue is a polarizing barometer of where they're at mentally for me, you might as well believe the planet is flat, you're that far behind common sense/collective conscience in my opinion. I think it's absurd for anyone to care if a couple dudes who love each other want to get married. Seriously, who gives a shit? Affects me next-to-zero.

I don't see homosexuality as something that's "encouraged" by allowing gay marriage. I think it's part of human (and animal) life on this planet and always has been and always will be. They have some thing (I don't really want to get into nature vs nurture, but I think it's probably a bit of both depending on the person, I know some lesbians who had horrible early life experiences with their fathers or other men and I can't help but think that was partially responsible, otherwise I personally think it's mostly a biological deviance, but I don't really know, I don't really care, it's not something they're choosing, I know that) within them that makes them deviate from our sexual norm. Oh well. You're balding. I have a saggy scrotum. J$ has creepy eyes. It's just details, it means nothing. Your kids aren't going to be gay unless they're gay. Nothing they see on TV is going to change that. If more gay people are comfortable being gay and not living closeted lives, in loveless marriages/families or denying themselves happiness because we're less uptight, judgmental, and sanctimonious about it, that's not a bad thing. It's not some kumbaya hippie utopian shit, it's just respect and knowing what's important to concern yourself with and what's somebody else's life. Prioritize your convictions and of course, clean up your own back yard.


here's the silly picture to derail my othewise serious reply

http://www.bearotic.com/img/2008/04/mbfback001.jpg

if we're not careful, in a few hundred years, bears like these will rule the earth and us breeders will have to sneak around in the shadows to get a little piece of poony

[Big_Dogg]

Why do I care? There are many reasons, most of which are obvious and exactly why billions of others are opposed to the idea.

Excluding all the religious points ... let's just use a practical one. I'm concerned because my children, their children, and then their children, fast forward hundreds of years, etc. ... there's the potential my offspring might be raising their own children in a world where there's less likelihood of them surviving.

Male + Female = life.

Male + Male = no life.

Female + Female = no life.

Is that reason enough to "care" wise guy?

No, it's not reason enough, like I said, what business is it of yours what others do with their life, since when does everyone else have to live their life to please you, do other people try to control your life by telling you what you can and can't do with regards to your lifestyle?

There are not so called billions of others opposed to it, it's the religious nut jobs and their dogmatic agenda trying to tell others how to live their lives according to their beliefs which they believe is the moral compass of the world, I like how you quote "remove the religious points", those are the only points, and obviously the points which matter to you the most, most of the people who are always the most opposed are the religious believers like you.

If anything these people will be breeding themselves out of the gene pool allowing your progeny to have a better chance of survival, it's natural selection at its best, only the strong survive, if you don't procreate, your genetics don't pass down, simple concept, so again, why do you care?

So from one wise guy to another, mind your own business, live your own life and stop thinking you have a right or moral authority to tell others how to live their lives or that they should care about your opinion.

[Nanners]

I was seeking a more serious response, however as your post proves, when there's no real response that would justify your own personal opinion that same sex couples are just as productive, beneficial, ideal, etc - I get some lame attempt at humor instead.

i thought this thread was humor.

your arguments are laughably absurd - we should outlaw gay marriage because its hard to explain to 6 year old children, and because "man + man = no babies and humanity will eventually go extinct."

are you seriously arguing that shit? i thought this whole thread was just comedy. you are being serious right now? if we allow gay marriage, humans will stop reproducing?? :oldlol:

go ahead and get gay married brah, ill make your woman preggers.

[Legend of Josh]

that was me being fairly serious. Sorry if it's dismissive but I really think your opinion is archaic and barely worth addressing, people's stance on this issue is a polarizing barometer of where they're at mentally for me, you might as well believe the planet is flat, you're that far behind common sense/collective conscience in my opinion. I think it's absurd for anyone to care if a couple dudes who love each other want to get married. Seriously, who gives a shit? Affects me next-to-zero.

I don't see homosexuality as something that's "encouraged" by allowing gay marriage. I think it's part of human (and animal) life on this planet and always has been and always will be. They have some thing (I don't really want to get into nature vs nurture, but I think it's probably a bit of both depending on the person, I know some lesbians who had horrible early life experiences with their fathers or other men and I can't help but think that was partially responsible, otherwise I personally think it's mostly a biological deviance, but I don't really know, I don't really care, it's not something they're choosing, I know that) within them that makes them deviate from our sexual norm. Oh well. You're balding. I have a saggy scrotum. J$ has creepy eyes. It's just details, it means nothing. Your kids aren't going to be gay unless they're gay. Nothing they see on TV is going to change that. If more gay people are comfortable being gay and not living closeted lives, in loveless marriages/families or denying themselves happiness because we're less uptight, judgmental, and sanctimonious about it, that's not a bad thing. It's not some kumbaya hippie utopian shit, it's just respect and knowing what's important to concern yourself with and what's somebody else's life. Prioritize your convictions and of course, clean up your own back yard.


here's the silly picture to derail my othewise serious reply

http://www.bearotic.com/img/2008/04/mbfback001.jpg

if we're not careful, in a few hundred years, bears like these will rule the earth and us breeders will have to sneak around in the shadows to get a little piece of poony

I can respect your post, and your opinion, but ours vary obviously. It's really none of my business what two other people do in private, and I'm surely not the judge of anyone else. I just feel our nation is going through a critical point in history, and the decisions we make from a policy standpoint will result in unfavorable disappoint from our heavenly Father, and I'll leave it at that, I don't want to get into a religious discussion.

The rest of the world also looks up to us, and their policies will change to reflect what we do... and at some point the entire world will be not only tolerate, but openly accepting of gay marriage.

Seeing two men at the alter being pronounced as husband and husband just doesn't seem right to me. I realize I'm coming off quite narrow minded, as two people can intimately and romantically love one another, regardless of their race, sex, etc... but it's just bluntly not natural. I'm not saying you can help who love, but we do have the ability to make decisions, and that there's something morally wrong with someone who makes the choice to love another lustfully and intimately who's the same sex as themselves.

Your point about the abused wife, etc. makes a lot of sense. One's social environment, especially with young boys at such a young age, plays a critical part in one's choice of orientation into adolescent. You hear how people claim they were "attracted to other little boys since the age of 5 or so" but I'm, not entirely convinced of that.

I'm not going to make the claim you're NOT born gay... but there's no such gay gene, and while we can observe other species (most notably mammals) engage in homosexual behavior, most of the cases are in males, not females. We know males are the more aggressive and sexual creatures, so that would make sense.

I believe the overwhelming factor is that human beings have a much more elevated conscience which boils down to decision making versus acting off instinct. Homosexuals have existed through the entire evolution of human history, but I believe the overwhelming factor in one's sexual orientation is based off early social environment, and not genetics.

I'm not saying I'm right, but I am saying logically it makes much more sense as a population that the boys mate with the girls, and that the boys with boys and girls with girls just doesn't seem right... and seems morally corrupt, acting against nature... acting against God's original design.

[Legend of Josh]

i thought this thread was humor.

your arguments are laughably absurd - we should outlaw gay marriage because its hard to explain to 6 year old children, and because "man + man = no babies and humanity will eventually go extinct."

are you seriously arguing that shit? i thought this whole thread was just comedy. you are being serious right now? if we allow gay marriage, humans will stop reproducing?? :oldlol:

go ahead and get gay married brah, ill make your woman preggers.

I didn't say it would completely derail reproduction entirely... but you can't possibly say you don't get the point?

If mother nature intended for us to engage in male + male partnership, then reproduction would somehow, someway be possible. It isn't. Yes, we live in 2012, and science has advanced in many different facets. We can artificially create life in a test-tube, but mother nature (some would argue God) did not intend for us to take the place of them (or Him).

That's all that I'm saying.

What's laughably observed is you continue to attempt lame humor without exactly contributing to the discussion. This is your calling card though... thinking you're witty and comical while adding your useless political, religious, tired and all-so common propaganda on the level of your average modern day mid-west hippy.

I used to think you had interesting and worthwhile things to say on many different various subjects, but lately you've evolved into an arrogant self overrated weak-sauce that not even medieval Europeans would put on their stale, molded beef steaks to mask the stank taste (see, I can crack unfunny jokes too, hehe, haha, LOL time, huh?)

:rolleyes:

[LJJ]

The concept is entirely simple. I'm all for equal rights, etc... but "marriage" is and always has been defined as a man and a woman. Why does all that have to change b/c a sect of our society is all butt-hurt (LOL) over this?

Social norms change and our views on human rights progress.

In the overwhelming majority of cultures throughout history, marriage was a very one-sided polygamic thing. Wives had one (living) husband, but a powerful man would have many wives. Women also tended to have very little choice in the whole "marriage" thing. A man saw what he liked and would simply take it. See how the "definition" of marriage has already changed completely from before?


The problem is that marriage in the United States is a state affair. And by allowing or not allowing two grown adults to marry based on their gender, the state enforces religious doctrine on it's citizens. Which is a bad thing in a country that supposedly holds freedom in a high regard. What you people are saying is that you like freedom, but only freedom for people who have the exact same opinions as you.

[Legend of Josh]

Social norms change and our views on human rights progress.

In the overwhelming majority of cultures throughout history, marriage was a very one-sided polygamic thing. Wives had one (living) husband, but a powerful man would have many wives. Women also tended to have very little choice in the whole "marriage" thing. A man saw what he liked and would simply take it. See how the "definition" of marriage has already changed completely from before?


The problem is that marriage in the United States is a state affair. And by allowing or not allowing two grown adults to marry based on their gender, the state enforces religious doctrine on it's citizens. Which is a bad thing in a country that supposedly holds freedom in a high regard. What you people are saying is that you like freedom, but only freedom for people who have the exact same opinions as you.

I do not support polygamy. I think one man should love one woman, end of story. Speaking from a natural perspective, one man can still mate and reproduce with multiple women, be it right or wrong.

A single man and a single man still can not. It goes against nature, whereas one could make the argument nature has nothing to say that would frown upon a single man with multiple female partners, or even a single woman with multiple male partners... reproduction is still in bounds.

This is getting a little closer... but still apples and oranges. Interracial marriage can produce offspring. Multiple sex partners can produce offspring.

Same sex?

:no:

[Lamar Doom]

the decisions we make from a policy standpoint will result in unfavorable disappoint from our heavenly Father, and I'll leave it at that


just so we're clear, your two biggest issues (aside from it "just not seeming right") are that you're concerned gay marriage (or some sort of gay epidemic caused by gay marriage/leniency) may lead to human population problems generations down the road and second, that god might smite us. I can't be asked to engage in real debate with that.

PS- I promise god doesn't care who loves who

[Legend of Josh]

just so we're clear, your two biggest issues (aside from it "just not seeming right") are that you're concerned gay marriage (or some sort of gay epidemic caused by gay marriage/leniency) may lead to human population problems generations down the road and second, that god might smite us. I can't be asked to engage in real debate with that.

PS- I promise god doesn't care who loves who

I'm not sure if your final comment was said in jest. I can't say entirely sure what God cares about more or less. You can't either. I do know what the Bible speaks of in regards to homosexuality. You may have an entirely different definition of God, or no belief at all.

God is love. God wants us to "love" all his creation, friends, sun moon stars and all that... including homosexuals... but I can't say I'm convinced God wants us to be romantically involved with others of the same sex. There's a difference between love and lust... and while a gay man may genuinely love another gay man, "naturally" I believe it points more to lust and something eternal within them that pushes them to seek the choice of homosexuality (here comes the haha's I'm sure, but perhaps Satan?).

[Lamar Doom]

Prop. 8 TV ad... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75J3TN9Zzck&feature=related)




holy shit that commercial is extra funny. the girl killed it. i thought "Thing" from fantastic 4 was a real straight shooter, now I see otherwise.

[kNIOKAS]

But what's wrong with two guys raising a baby? Raised by a two women the baby would become a bitch, yes, I agree... but two guys, maybe not bad? Remember this movie 3 men and a baby? Maybe baby would amount to something

[Rake2204]

http://memearchive.net/animooted.com/original/150.gif


... but honestly though, how would two men properly inform/educate/etc their child on said topic? How do they go about this without instilling deep down confusion and dumbfounding them?

[niko]

But what's wrong with two guys raising a baby? Raised by a two women the baby would become a bitch, yes, I agree... but two guys, maybe not bad? Remember this movie 3 men and a baby? Maybe baby would amount to something

That was THREE guys. This is only 2. Only 66%. Doesn't work.

Jeez...:facepalm

[niko]

I didn't say it would completely derail reproduction entirely... but you can't possibly say you don't get the point?

If mother nature intended for us to engage in male + male partnership, then reproduction would somehow, someway be possible. It isn't. Yes, we live in 2012, and science has advanced in many different facets. We can artificially create life in a test-tube, but mother nature (some would argue God) did not intend for us to take the place of them (or Him).

That's all that I'm saying.

What's laughably observed is you continue to attempt lame humor without exactly contributing to the discussion. This is your calling card though... thinking you're witty and comical while adding your useless political, religious, tired and all-so common propaganda on the level of your average modern day mid-west hippy.

I used to think you had interesting and worthwhile things to say on many different various subjects, but lately you've evolved into an arrogant self overrated weak-sauce that not even medieval Europeans would put on their stale, molded beef steaks to mask the stank taste (see, I can crack unfunny jokes too, hehe, haha, LOL time, huh?)

:rolleyes:


Mother Nature doesn't intend a great deal of the shit we do. Do they all bother you? OR just this in particular?

[Nanners]

I didn't say it would completely derail reproduction entirely... but you can't possibly say you don't get the point?

If mother nature intended for us to engage in male + male partnership, then reproduction would somehow, someway be possible. It isn't. Yes, we live in 2012, and science has advanced in many different facets. We can artificially create life in a test-tube, but mother nature (some would argue God) did not intend for us to take the place of them (or Him).

That's all that I'm saying.

What's laughably observed is you continue to attempt lame humor without exactly contributing to the discussion. This is your calling card though... thinking you're witty and comical while adding your useless political, religious, tired and all-so common propaganda on the level of your average modern day mid-west hippy.

I used to think you had interesting and worthwhile things to say on many different various subjects, but lately you've evolved into an arrogant self overrated weak-sauce that not even medieval Europeans would put on their stale, molded beef steaks to mask the stank taste (see, I can crack unfunny jokes too, hehe, haha, LOL time, huh?)

:rolleyes:

what do you know about what mother nature intends? did mother nature intend for you to sit around in an office building selling insurance all day, and then go home to pop pills and *********e furiously to asian porno all night?

[bluechox2]

Homosexuals need toget married because it gives them extra benefits from the government . They could care two shits about marriage, just need that paper from court

[Legend of Josh]

Homosexuals need toget married because it gives them extra benefits from the government . They could care two shits about marriage, just need that paper from court

They do care about the "marriage" part; that's the entire debate.

Nanners - I never claimed that I personally follow mother nature's intentions entirely - and neither do you. That isn't really a fair comparison. People, me, you, everyone - are obviously going to make wrong/incorrect decisions/actions in life - but we're speaking of such a fundamental aspect in nature (reproduction, life itself), so someone's occupation doesn't quite compare to sexual preference (choice).

Liberals and the like (such as yourself) are always using silly comparisons to argue such important issues and questions ... such as gay marriage (comparing interracial marriage) and God (comparing Santa Clause, Big Foot or the flying 'getti monster).

Really?

:rolleyes:

[Lamar Doom]

what do you know about what mother nature intends? did mother nature intend for you to sit around in an office building selling insurance all day, and then go home to pop pills and *********e furiously to asian porno all night?



Nanners - I never claimed that I personally follow mother nature's intentions entirely - and neither do you. That isn't really a fair comparison.

It's actually super valid. Why do you get to define what variances from mother nature (which is a wholly speculative conversation to begin with) are important and which aren't? Because your church says so? Because you have ridiculous fears of a sci-fi world in which straights are the minority and reproduction is at risk? It's truly laughable man. Marriage and reproduction are not the same thing. If pairing them in your value system is important to you, go for it, but don't put that on everybody else. You want to pick and choose which parts of the bible to ignore to suit your lifestyle? Go for it. You're the one who's choosing to sin, they're just loving who they're attracted to. Seriously, it's embarassingly arrogant, presumptuous, and hypocritical to try to indict someone for crossing mother nature. You're some guy who was born in the USA in the 1980s, what do you really think you know about what's right in nature? My rebuttal to the same question thrown at me is simply that I'm not the one trying to take away someone's liberty by telling them their love isn't good enough for our legal union. (and also that I was born in the 70s)



People, me, you, everyone - are obviously going to make wrong/incorrect decisions/actions in life - but we're speaking of such a fundamental aspect in nature (reproduction, life itself), so someone's occupation doesn't quite compare to sexual preference (choice).

if you think homosexuality is a choice you can stop reading here because we have nothing else to talk about on the issue. why would anyone choose to be gay? there are many unclear things about the gay world to me but I am 100% certain they aren't choosing to be gay. 100%, no questions asked, anything you say to the contrary is pure ignorance.



Liberals and the like (such as yourself) are always using silly comparisons to argue such important issues and questions ... such as gay marriage (comparing interracial marriage) and God (comparing Santa Clause, Big Foot or the flying 'getti monster).




Let's be real here, we're talking about a 2000 year old text that was translated and re-translated (by politicians and other men with agendas) from dead languages. This is not the word of god, or at least, he didn't write the thing. There are many valuable lessons and fundamental truths (some of which go without saying or appear in other holy and secular texts) in the bible but you're trying to take a few passages from leviticus (etc) to judge a portion of the population that has always been there and will always be. Meanwhile you ignore this part and that part, take this part literally, that part figuratively... That's silly. That's where people start comparing christianity to people believing in Santa, when a complete lack of rational reasoning is only defended with arguments of faith or blatantly false and self-serving interpretation.

I'm sorry if gay marriage shatters your normal rockwell view of the family but you're wrong to try to make this a religious issue or claim god (your god by the way, this is supposed to be a free country, does your god not agree with that? or it's only free so long as it meets your understanding of the text representing him, or the convictions of your particular church?) has a stake in it. If the "right and wrong" detector in your heart tells you otherwise it's just homophobia talking. You're just wrong on this one Josh, and the ugly side of your argument is that you're shitting on people's liberties by trying to define what a family should be. Super obsolete thinking.



http://s7.postimage.org/tbqlun58p/lojandgod.jpg


Here's the plan, you show up to the pearly gates and god is pissed "Josh, why didn't you fight harder to stop gay marriage?", all you have to say is "I'm sorry god, I wasn't sure what was right, I know there are some convoluted passages about laying with other men in the bible but I also thought the most important parts of the bible were the love, forgivness, and "judge not lest ye be judged" parts... I just didn't want to end up like the slave owner "christians" who also used your book to defend their actions". God'll be like "alright Josh, I'm pissed but you can come in because when in doubt you went with the more loving and progressive option... Lamar Doom is here, playing ping-pong with John Lennon..."

http://s9.postimage.org/xqtl5ch3h/doomlennon.jpg

"I'm the f*cking Walrus now Johnny"

[Scholar]

The thing about gay marriage is that a lot of people cite what God may or may not want. As far as I understand, there's meant to be a separation in church & govt in the United States; therefore, the argument put up by some that gay marriage wouldn't appease God is moot. It holds no relevance in a country that is supposed to be void of religion in politics.

As far as I'm concerned, I have no quarrels with homosexuals. If they want to marry the individuals they love, go for it. Why stop them? Who says they can't be as miserable as the rest of us who actually got/get married?

:confusedshrug:

Don't allow your religious view points cloud your judgments.

[RidonKs]

Yup. In Leviticus it also mentions that you must keep slaves, wear only polly cotton blends, and keep a huge beard. I assume LoJ does all of these things, or else he's just as much a sinner as a homo.
this seems relevant (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSXJzybEeJM)

[Legend of Josh]

It's actually super valid. Why do you get to define what variances from mother nature (which is a wholly speculative conversation to begin with) are important and which aren't? Because your church says so? Because you have ridiculous fears of a sci-fi world in which straights are the minority and reproduction is at risk? It's truly laughable man. Marriage and reproduction are not the same thing. If pairing them in your value system is important to you, go for it, but don't put that on everybody else. You want to pick and choose which parts of the bible to ignore to suit your lifestyle? Go for it. You're the one who's choosing to sin, they're just loving who they're attracted to. Seriously, it's embarassingly arrogant, presumptuous, and hypocritical to try to indict someone for crossing mother nature. You're some guy who was born in the USA in the 1980s, what do you really think you know about what's right in nature? My rebuttal to the same question thrown at me is simply that I'm not the one trying to take away someone's liberty by telling them their love isn't good enough for our legal union. (and also that I was born in the 70s)




if you think homosexuality is a choice you can stop reading here because we have nothing else to talk about on the issue. why would anyone choose to be gay? there are many unclear things about the gay world to me but I am 100% certain they aren't choosing to be gay. 100%, no questions asked, anything you say to the contrary is pure ignorance.




Let's be real here, we're talking about a 2000 year old text that was translated and re-translated (by politicians and other men with agendas) from dead languages. This is not the word of god, or at least, he didn't write the thing. There are many valuable lessons and fundamental truths (some of which go without saying or appear in other holy and secular texts) in the bible but you're trying to take a few passages from leviticus (etc) to judge a portion of the population that has always been there and will always be. Meanwhile you ignore this part and that part, take this part literally, that part figuratively... That's silly. That's where people start comparing christianity to people believing in Santa, when a complete lack of rational reasoning is only defended with arguments of faith or blatantly false and self-serving interpretation.

I'm sorry if gay marriage shatters your normal rockwell view of the family but you're wrong to try to make this a religious issue or claim god (your god by the way, this is supposed to be a free country, does your god not agree with that? or it's only free so long as it meets your understanding of the text representing him, or the convictions of your particular church?) has a stake in it. If the "right and wrong" detector in your heart tells you otherwise it's just homophobia talking. You're just wrong on this one Josh, and the ugly side of your argument is that you're shitting on people's liberties by trying to define what a family should be. Super obsolete thinking.



http://s7.postimage.org/tbqlun58p/lojandgod.jpg


Here's the plan, you show up to the pearly gates and god is pissed "Josh, why didn't you fight harder to stop gay marriage?", all you have to say is "I'm sorry god, I wasn't sure what was right, I know there are some convoluted passages about laying with other men in the bible but I also thought the most important parts of the bible were the love, forgivness, and "judge not lest ye be judged" parts... I just didn't want to end up like the slave owner "christians" who also used your book to defend their actions". God'll be like "alright Josh, I'm pissed but you can come in because when in doubt you went with the more loving and progressive option... Lamar Doom is here, playing ping-pong with John Lennon..."

http://s9.postimage.org/xqtl5ch3h/doomlennon.jpg

"I'm the f*cking Walrus now Johnny"

The argument I'm making in here is 95% from a mother nature perspective. I'm not creating paragraph after paragraph referencing God's reasoning for disapproving homosexuality, but here you are, using God/Christianity/religion as your basis to attack me.

I'm not trying to be arrogant in here... I just feel strongly about said issue. Homosexuals and supporters of homosexuality have every right to defend their stance and voice their opinions, and I'm simply on the other side of the equation doing my thing. One could easily point the finger in the other direction saying homosexuals and supporters are the one's being arrogant saying those who don't believe and feel as them are backwoods, narrow-minded, ignorant, etc. (just as you're doing calling me ignorant).

I'm not in here saying gays or lesbians are ignorant, dumb, etc. I am saying I feel what their lifestyle represents is something that goes against mother nature (IMO, which is obviously shared by more people worldwide than the other side) ... I'm not in here trying to "preach" and telling homosexuals they're going to hell and burn forever, etc.

I was simply trying to grasp an understanding and other's opinions on how two gay parents would explain to their very young children "where babies come from" or why they have two daddies, etc. I'm not in here bashing anyone. Nanners maybe b/c dude (as usual) just goes straight into attack mode.

There's no need for you to write titangraphs about me and my religious beliefs (much more than being focused on the actual subject) when we weren't even going down that road. We were on a mother nature debate... so can we just keep it at that?

Thanks. Why did you attack my religious views and beliefs? It came off more like a personal attack when I haven't been "gay bashing" or going at someone personally... I really didn't want this thread to go there.

Everything we discuss (especially on this particular subject) in here is opinion based first and foremost. We're nowhere near the actual "facts" yet ... science isn't there, and religion is based more on faith than facts, so religion will have to remain based on personal beliefs. That's one great thing about the human spirit, we're free and open to believe what we want.

I believe homosexuality is a choice more than an actual genetic trait. I'm open to admitting some of us are more susceptible to turning out gay than others, but that the vast overwhelming factor points to social environment. I'd even go as far as saying there could be say a homosexual male who is "born" as much as say 15% attracted to men naturally, but that they're a minimum of 85% genetically attracted to women, being nature's default male + female = life and all that blah blah blah

I believe the final product (whenever the individual comes to terms they're gay, straight or bi-sexual) is like I said, overwhelmingly a direct outcome of their upbringing, social environment, events and actions that happened in their life that ultimately resulted in where they land on sexual preference. It's just like your own example of a woman being abused, sexually as a child by her father or another male figure... or getting older and being in multiple physically abused relationships ... she just finally gives up, and can't trust a man, therefore only attracted to women from that point forward... but at birth, she wasn't that way, right?

I realize the statement "gay people choose to be gay" can be a bit rude (even though I never mean for it to be that way) ... so I will be more cautious in how I make my argument in respect for those who do not feel the same. We're all living in the same world, might as well learn to live together b/c neither side is going to completely convert to the other.

It's all about love. All people deserve love regardless of who they love (boy, girl, both) ... I have a female cousin who is very close to me ... she's a homosexual and lives with her life partner. I love her to death. She knows that, and she knows where I personally stand on the issue, but we're still family, and we're still caring people, so we still love each other no matter what and would do anything for one another.

[Legend of Josh]

Yup. In Leviticus it also mentions that you must keep slaves, wear only polly cotton blends, and keep a huge beard. I assume LoJ does all of these things, or else he's just as much a sinner as a homo.

See, more examples of something written in the Bible (we're talking about mother nature here) in comparison to simple life 101 (male + female = life) ... whether or not you shave your beard or eat pork has virtually nothing to do with how life is created.

I really don't get why you guys still continue to toss these silly comparisons out there. Comparing interracial marriage in the mix was apples and oranges enough; seems now we've graduated to grapes and pineapples.

[niko]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can find ways to use the bible to rationalize excluding groups of people from something.

[Nanners]

It never ceases to amaze me how people can find ways to use the bible to rationalize excluding groups of people from something.

the level of hypocrisy is what amazes me most. divorce is okay while homosexuality is demonized, how do they explain that to their god?

if you go to work on the sabbath, eat shellfish, wear synthetic fabric... that should be a public stoning.





1 Lust
2 Gluttony
3 Greed
4 Sloth
5 Wrath
6 Envy
7 Pride

the "sins" that are listed above, these are things that should be much higher on any god fearing christians shit list than homosexuality. why would we even talk about homosexuality when greed is one of the cornerstones of america?


edit: this whole "going against nature" argument is laughable. homosexuality exists in nature, it doesnt threaten the future of human reproduction, and who decides what is "going against nature" in the first place?

[Legend of Josh]

Here we go again... bringing religion back into the equation... like I keep trying to keep at the forefront, we're discussing something along the lines of two grown men explaining to their adopted unnatural child where they truly came from, and why there are two daddies and no mommy around.

Why keep trying to spin off the original question?

:confusedshrug:

God is the only one who can properly judge sins individually ... that isn't what this thread is about.

[Lamar Doom]

Here we go again... bringing religion back into the equation... like I keep trying to keep at the forefront, we're discussing something along the lines of two grown men explaining to their adopted unnatural child where they truly came from, and why there are two daddies and no mommy around.

Why keep trying to spin off the original question?

:confusedshrug:

God is the only one who can properly judge sins individually ... that isn't what this thread is about.


So the thread is about "where do babies come from"? Or it's about a gay couple explaining to kids where babies come from and why there's no mommy in their house? Cause it seems like you made it about religion when you started talking about "god being angry" being one of the primary reasons to disallow gay marriage. What's the question? Or did you just want to give your thoughts and tell everyone who responded they weren't getting it or taking it seriously?

[Nanners]

so we should outlaw gay marriage because its difficult to explain to "adopted unnatural" 6 year olds why they have two daddies?

what if mommy weighs 800 lbs and spends her entire life in a hoverround, thats tough to explain to a 6 year old, should we make that illegal? what if daddy divorces mommy so he can get with the 25 year old secretary, is that easy to explain to a 6 year old?

of course kids are going to be confused by homosexuality, kids are confused by ****ing everything. maybe you shouldnt be talking with your 6 year old about sexuality in the first place.

what do people tell kids about hetero marriage? do they tell them "well, a man loves a woman and then a baby slides out of the womans pee-hole?" how is that any less confusing than any other answer?

[Legend of Josh]

what if mommy weighs 800 lbs and spends her entire life in a hoverround, thats tough to explain to a 6 year old, should we make that illegal? ?

Wow dude, you just hit the nail on the head. I'm blown away. Why couldn't I see it before? A young girl growing up witnessing her mother being obese and stuffing her face with KFC every other night is just as equally confusing to her as would having two dads when other kids at school poke fun at her and tell her they can't make babies and that she's really someone else's kid. The mentioned obese mother would be just as confusing to her discovering and rightfully owning her own individual sexual orientation once she becomes of age.

It's a dead-on comparison. Please, keep them coming.

[Nanners]

Wow dude, you just hit the nail on the head. I'm blown away. Why couldn't I see it before? A young girl growing up witnessing her mother being obese and stuffing her face with KFC every other night is just as equally confusing to her as would having two dads when other kids at school poke fun at her and tell her they can't make babies and that she's really someone else's kid. The mentioned obese mother would be just as confusing to her discovering and rightfully owning her own individual sexual orientation once she becomes of age.

It's a dead-on comparison. Please, keep them coming.

so now you are saying that gay marriage should be illegal because schoolkids will poke fun at gay marriage children for being adopted? first of all, only an asshole kid makes fun of another kid for being adopted. garbage argument because we shouldnt have government policy dictated by asshole children.

do you remember what it was like to go to school? kids make fun of kids for literally everything. having gay parents doesnt single you out for teasing any more than having a walrus mom on a hoverround singles you out.

heres an idea, maybe if parents werent bigoted idiots, their shithead kids wouldnt make fun of some other kid just because they happened to be adopted by two men.

[niko]

Wow dude, you just hit the nail on the head. I'm blown away. Why couldn't I see it before? A young girl growing up witnessing her mother being obese and stuffing her face with KFC every other night is just as equally confusing to her as would having two dads when other kids at school poke fun at her and tell her they can't make babies and that she's really someone else's kid. The mentioned obese mother would be just as confusing to her discovering and rightfully owning her own individual sexual orientation once she becomes of age.

It's a dead-on comparison. Please, keep them coming.
I live in Bay Ridge. Go to Park Slope all the time for my daughters classes, etc. There are about (literally) thousands of familys in Park Slope, white parents, who adopted asian kids (mostly girls). A lot have black children too.

News Flash: Kids ask about it, then say OH. THEY DO NOT GIVE A ****. They are not obtuse haters like you. My daughers asked me about it, i told her the original parents didn't/couldn't take care, so the new parents took her. Her response "Good thing the new parents wanted her or she'd be alone."

You're just hating on a group of people. Nothing else. You've decided people who don't share your sexual orientation shouldn't be afforded those same protections / simple joys of saying "i'm married".

Note: People who use the bible as a literal reference guide are mentally retarded. I'm not discrediting god, etc. but the bible is a book written by men, full of stories, meant to show example of behaivor. It's not a rule book. And the people using it as such are doublely hypocritical because they pick and choose which rules they like.

[Legend of Josh]

I live in Bay Ridge. Go to Park Slope all the time for my daughters classes, etc. There are about (literally) thousands of familys in Park Slope, white parents, who adopted asian kids (mostly girls). A lot have black children too.

News Flash: Kids ask about it, then say OH. THEY DO NOT GIVE A ****. They are not obtuse haters like you. My daughers asked me about it, i told her the original parents didn't/couldn't take care, so the new parents took her. Her response "Good thing the new parents wanted her or she'd be alone."

You're just hating on a group of people. Nothing else. You've decided people who don't share your sexual orientation shouldn't be afforded those same protections / simple joys of saying "i'm married".

Note: People who use the bible as a literal reference guide are mentally retarded. I'm not discrediting god, etc. but the bible is a book written by men, full of stories, meant to show example of behaivor. It's not a rule book. And the people using it as such are doublely hypocritical because they pick and choose which rules they like.

You keep mentioning the Bible... and I keep trying and trying to point out to you that I'm not using the Bible in this debate. Why can't you come to terms with this? You seem rather angry and keep saying I'm a hater and bashing a specific sect of people in this world when I'm not doing that.

You're the hater here dude, LOL. You keep mentioning the Bible... how you think religious people or those who take the Bible literally are retarded (FYI, I don't entirely take the Bible literally, but there are some aspects that ARE VERY OBVIOUS they're not in some symbolic or metaphoric meaning ... such as "if man lay with man he will surely die" ... there's no way this is referring to some hidden or perplexed metaphor. It's simply plain as day).

Let's not go down that path though... I only brought it up b/c you insist on keeping on bringing up God's word and I keep trying to inform you this is more of a mother nature oriented discussion.

There's absolutely no reason for you to keep bringing God into this. Stop already. You doing so, demonstrates YOU'RE the hater, not me. I don't believe mother nature intended for man to be with man, that doesn't mean I literally hate men who sleep with men... it just means I don't agree with. You're response saying Christians who take the Bible literally are "retarded" is bashing and hateful... I'm not speaking in a hateful manner... you are.

You're the hater, not me.

:rolleyes:

[Mr Know It All]

Couldn't help but laugh at this ad. American politics are so absurd.:oldlol:

[Lamar Doom]

Couldn't help but laugh at this ad. American politics are so absurd.:oldlol:

It's because close to half the people still think like LoJ. The republicans bolster votes by taking zealot standpoints on things like homosexuality and abortion (which will never be over turned) and the conversation never goes away. Somebody needs to just pull rank, democracy needs to take a back seat to sense at some point if we have to stagnate progress to banter with bigots. Believe me, most of us know how ridiculous it is, we're just waiting for these rubes to catch up or die off.

[Quizno]

The argument I'm making in here is 95% from a mother nature perspective.

this makes your argument SO dumb. mother nature didn't intend for homosexuals to get married? mother nature didn't intend for anybody to get married :oldlol: marriage is a purely man-made concept, it has literally nothing to do with mother nature, how can you even argue otherwise? when did "mother nature" (whatever that may be) say "okay, when a man and a woman love each other they may engage in a ceremony that is dictated primarily upon what your religious convictions are that says they will be together until death do them part and shall be known as husband and wife."

what the hell does that have to do with mother nature? and if it's primarily based around nature/reproductive ability, then are you saying infertile people can't get married? surely mother nature didn't intend for infertile people to wed because they can't reproduce and are thus holding back mankind's progressive advances!

just say you don't think gay people should get married because the bible preaches hatred of homosexuals and god doesn't approve. at least then you'd have some sort of basis for your argument (as unbelievably stupid and horrible as it is, there is at the very least some semblance of a basis for it). but don't say you're arguing against gay marriage from a mother nature standpoint. it literally makes zero sense.

marriage = man-made concept, absolutely nothing to do with nature :facepalm

[niko]

You keep mentioning the Bible... and I keep trying and trying to point out to you that I'm not using the Bible in this debate. Why can't you come to terms with this? You seem rather angry and keep saying I'm a hater and bashing a specific sect of people in this world when I'm not doing that.

You're the hater here dude, LOL. You keep mentioning the Bible... how you think religious people or those who take the Bible literally are retarded (FYI, I don't entirely take the Bible literally, but there are some aspects that ARE VERY OBVIOUS they're not in some symbolic or metaphoric meaning ... such as "if man lay with man he will surely die" ... there's no way this is referring to some hidden or perplexed metaphor. It's simply plain as day).

Let's not go down that path though... I only brought it up b/c you insist on keeping on bringing up God's word and I keep trying to inform you this is more of a mother nature oriented discussion.

There's absolutely no reason for you to keep bringing God into this. Stop already. You doing so, demonstrates YOU'RE the hater, not me. I don't believe mother nature intended for man to be with man, that doesn't mean I literally hate men who sleep with men... it just means I don't agree with. You're response saying Christians who take the Bible literally are "retarded" is bashing and hateful... I'm not speaking in a hateful manner... you are.

You're the hater, not me.

:rolleyes:
I think people who take the bible literally as word for word guidelines and rules on how to live there live are pretty much morons. Yes, i really really do.

I'm not saying taking things here and there that you think are good points. I'm saying doing something such as saying "GAY MARRIAGE IS BAD - I READ IT IN THE BIBLE THEREFORE I CANNOT ACCEPT IT" is extremely moronic.

And yes, i have absolutely zero tolerance for people who are exclusionary, and zero X two tolerance for people who use religion as a reason to do so. BEcause what i took growing up from religion was to be a good person and be as good as i could to others, not to be a slave to a set of rules.

[Legend of Josh]

I think people who take the bible literally as word for word guidelines and rules on how to live there live are pretty much morons. Yes, i really really do.

I'm not saying taking things here and there that you think are good points. I'm saying doing something such as saying "GAY MARRIAGE IS BAD - I READ IT IN THE BIBLE THEREFORE I CANNOT ACCEPT IT" is extremely moronic.

And yes, i have absolutely zero tolerance for people who are exclusionary, and zero X two tolerance for people who use religion as a reason to do so. BEcause what i took growing up from religion was to be a good person and be as good as i could to others, not to be a slave to a set of rules.

I used to think the exact same way. I understand where you're coming from; at that time I did anyway.

With or without the Bible, with or without religion, with or without God, one can still arrive at the conclusion that man + man doesn't seem right. It doesn't mean that said person is the final authority and that's that. Like we've already established, you have supporters and those who do not support gay marriage.

I believe marriage should be reserved between a man and woman. It doesn't mean I'm right. It just means that's how I (and the majority of the country) feel. You're free to feel how you do.

BTW, not all Christians are morons who completely take the Bible 100% literally word for word. I do realize there are however Christians who do interrupt the Bible 100% literally and never question it, but there's also atheists who are "extreme" in terms of blind faith without questioning things and are just as faithful there is no God.

I suppose one would make the argument those folks are morons too, but I'm not going to do so... calling people morons doesn't exactly do anything except upset people.

[Legend of Josh]

this makes your argument SO dumb. mother nature didn't intend for homosexuals to get married? mother nature didn't intend for anybody to get married :oldlol:

marriage = man-made concept, absolutely nothing to do with nature :facepalm

This debate isn't entirely about "marriage" either... it's original purpose was seeking a logical and rational explanation as to how two fathers would explain to their son or daughter how "babies are made" and why they have two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy.

Marriage doesn't even have to come into the equation... when I keep referencing "mother nature" I'm talking about reproduction... I'm talking about the creation of life. I'm not speaking of mother nature as a knowledgeable entity (such as God), so your entire "your argument is SO dumb" point is immediately tossed out the window.

:hammerhead:

[Quizno]

This debate isn't entirely about "marriage" either... it's original purpose was seeking a logical and rational explanation as to how two fathers would explain to their son or daughter how "babies are made" and why they have two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy.

Marriage doesn't even have to come into the equation... when I keep referencing "mother nature" I'm talking about reproduction... I'm talking about the creation of life. I'm not speaking of mother nature as a knowledgeable entity (such as God), so your entire "your argument is SO dumb" point is immediately tossed out the window.

:hammerhead:

ahem


The concept is entirely simple. I'm all for equal rights, etc... but "marriage" is and always has been defined as a man and a woman. Why does all that have to change b/c a sect of our society is all butt-hurt (LOL) over this?

you brought marriage into this literally on the first page of the thread :oldlol: stop backtracking because you know your point has no basis and makes no sense

[General]

That ad is pretty stupid, but I did vote yes on Prop 8 in 2008 for my own personal beliefs.

[Mach_3]

This debate isn't entirely about "marriage" either... it's original purpose was seeking a logical and rational explanation as to how two fathers would explain to their son or daughter how "babies are made" and why they have two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy.

Marriage doesn't even have to come into the equation... when I keep referencing "mother nature" I'm talking about reproduction... I'm talking about the creation of life. I'm not speaking of mother nature as a knowledgeable entity (such as God), so your entire "your argument is SO dumb" point is immediately tossed out the window.

:hammerhead:

What you don't understand is that NO homosexual ever "chooses" to be homosexual, they are just born that way. How can you condemn a part of our society just because they were born a certain way? What your doing almost literally sounds like bigotry

[Mach_3]

And if a gay dad's son ask him where babies come from, tell that lil ni99a the truth about it. Why lie when they will find out anyway? and if he asks why the dad is gay, tell that ni99a the truth again. Better to teach your kid that the world is a fcuked up place then for them to learn about it later. (And no i don't mean gay marriage or being gay is fcuked up)

[Legend of Josh]

What you don't understand is that NO homosexual ever "chooses" to be homosexual, they are just born that way. How can you condemn a part of our society just because they were born a certain way? What your doing almost literally sounds like bigotry

No, what you don't understand is that you claim homosexuals are 100% born that way, when you DO NOT know that entirely. How do you know no homosexual chooses to be gay?

There are countless videos on YouTube, articles on the internet where previously gay people claimed they were once "born gay" however now understand within themselves that they once MADE A PERSONAL CHOICE to be gay, but now they're MAKING THE CHOICE to be heterosexual and they claim they fully believe they were originally born heterosexual, and not born homosexual.

How do you refute their claims?

:confusedshrug:

What you're doing saying it's FACT that homosexuals are born gay, PERIOD, is what comes across as something you obviously don't even remotely understand. It's your opinion they're born gay. It's my opinion there's an overwhelming factor (if not entirely) it's based on social environment.

Again, at this point it's all opinion ... so stop making yourself look like you're clueless about actual facts here versus opinion.

[niko]

No, what you don't understand is that you claim homosexuals are 100% born that way, when you DO NOT know that entirely. How do you know no homosexual chooses to be gay?

There are countless videos on YouTube, articles on the internet where previously gay people claimed they were once "born gay" however now understand within themselves that they once MADE A PERSONAL CHOICE to be gay, but now they're MAKING THE CHOICE to be heterosexual and they claim they fully believe they were originally born heterosexual, and not born homosexual.

How do you refute their claims?

:confusedshrug:

What you're doing saying it's FACT that homosexuals are born gay, PERIOD, is what comes across as something you obviously don't even remotely understand. It's your opinion they're born gay. It's my opinion there's an overwhelming factor (if not entirely) it's based on social environment.

Again, at this point it's all opinion ... so stop making yourself look like you're clueless about actual facts here versus opinion.

I've seen pretty young children who you can see are already showing tendencies toward being gay. They get picked on, beat up, treated like utter shit. They don't want to be gay. I've worked with teenagers who were gay who swore up and down to anyone they were straight. Again, bullied. Picked on. Ostracized. They do not "want" to be gay, they do not "choose" to be gay. If there was a painful horrible treatment to cure their "gayness", they'd do it.

It's not a choice. I'm sure you won;t believe that, because then you can't rationalize away the fact you are basically just being hateful and exclusionary.

[Legend of Josh]

I've seen pretty young children who you can see are already showing tendencies toward being gay. They get picked on, beat up, treated like utter shit. They don't want to be gay. I've worked with teenagers who were gay who swore up and down to anyone they were straight. Again, bullied. Picked on. Ostracized. They do not "want" to be gay, they do not "choose" to be gay. If there was a painful horrible treatment to cure their "gayness", they'd do it.

It's not a choice. I'm sure you won;t believe that, because then you can't rationalize away the fact you are basically just being hateful and exclusionary.

YOU do not know for sure if it's choice or social environment one way or another. I do not know either. We're sharing our opinions. I'm just making the claim that male + female = life and male + male = nothing.

I can't make a factual claim that homosexuals are making a choice... it's my opinion... YOU (and please guys, stop pretending YOU'RE the ending and all final decision maker on homosexuals being born and it's not one's social environment) are giving your opinion. THE FACT is that YOU DO NOT KNOW! That's the fact. The fact is I don't know for FACT either. We're tossing opinions around.

You have homosexuals who claim they're born gay... and you have homosexuals (or were once one) who claim they made a choice, and are now making the choice to be heterosexual.

How can you say one group is right and one group is wrong? How CAN YOU on an individual level say they're wrong without living THEIR LIVES... without being in THEIR SHOES? You can't! So stop pretending there's been a discovered proven beyond a reasonable doubt gay gene or something of the equivalent that proves once and for all homosexuals are born gay and are not making a lifestyle choice.

We're not there, so by all means, please stop claiming these are factual claims and not your mere personal opinion.

:hammerhead:

It's very simple.

[Lamar Doom]

One of the saddest and funniest things about this thread is that despite his views on gay marriage, I thought he posted the OP commercial because he knew it was funny, but what we've come to find out is that it really spoke to him, and he's actually worried about 6 year olds having birds and bees talks with their two gay dads. Wouldn't they just explain that it takes male and female parts to make a baby but some people are gay/lesbian and use in vitro/insemenation/surrogates/adoption? i don't understand why telling the truth is wrong? because your bigot kids are picking on them at school? maybe. (please get snipped)

The only reason this shit is still an issue is because of people like you. This is the current group that's still semi-acceptable to discriminate against and you're one of the unenlightened few who needs to be apart of it. I'm not saying banning gay marriage is as bad as jim crow laws or keeping women from working or voting but it's the same theme served up 2012 style. Your opinions are all based in fear and hate, no matter how you try to spin it. Your opinion will be taken as seriously as segregation is now in just a few years.


stop backtracking because you know your point has no basis and makes no sense


this is how the entire thread has been with him. every point he tries to make gets rebutted and then he acts like that wasn't what he was talking about.




With or without the Bible, with or without religion, with or without God, one can still arrive at the conclusion that man + man doesn't seem right.

no, it may be gross or unrelatable but that doesn't define right and wrong. you don't get to determine what's wrong for other people when it's non-destructive.


but there's also atheists who are "extreme" in terms of blind faith without questioning things and are just as faithful there is no God.

I suppose one would make the argument those folks are morons too, but I'm not going to do so... calling people morons doesn't exactly do anything except upset people.

I think absolute athiesm is foolish. They can't know for sure about something so beyond our understanding. Science can never disprove god. I have a hard time believing that love, music, art, beauty, and other higher truths are just electrical signals in residual exploded star dust or lucky biology. I don't know what's worth believing and what just makes us feel better about our mortality but I know nobody knows for sure on either side. Having said that, I don't feel like the atheists step on people's lives, using their faith as an excuse to oppress. talking out your ass, dropping morals, and then trying to legislate morality is where the "moron" comes from.


you can do your little rolleyes and hammerhead smileys and be dismissive but you've wasted everybody's time here as I expected. this isn't a discussion, even though you keep trying to act like you're the one trying to have a real talk and everyone else is attacking you. your only real opinion here is that gay marriage is unnatural and evil. that's all you have to say, you're a homophobe, simple. everything else is you reaching to debate little semantic issues or declaring everything apples and oranges. I don't know if you have reading comprehension trouble or you're just too much of a stubborn doofus to hear the truth. you have not one valid legal, relgious, or moral point, you simply "don't think it's right". and the more poorly-thought-out replies you post, the clearer that becomes. you don't take anything from anyone's replies, you spent pages of rhetoric scrambling for some ground to stand on but it's not there, and not just because you're not smart enough to debate it.


the "gay exodus" group you're now using as some sort of argument for homosexuality being a choice is an infintesimal minority, fueled by guilt created by people like you. I don't doubt that there are some crazy f*ckers out there who "chose" to be gay, god knows why, but if you've ever spent any time with a real gay/lesbian person (which you obviously haven't) you know it's not a choice. you KNOW. it's a fact. of course you can't KNOW 100% without being every gay person on the planet but that sort of argument is retarded and applicable to anything you want to direct it towards. you're arguing perspective, not facts. you don't know that your parents are your parents, you don't know that the color you percieve as blue is what everybody else does. you don't know that you're alive. using common sense and experience is a little element of faith that allows us to not run around in circles until we die.

here's a great clip for you all to watch about josh's people who chose to be gay then chose to be straight again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFo8NGO4nTA)




The fact is I don't know for FACT either. We're tossing opinions around.



if you're so uncertain why are you so willing to stand for impeding these people's rights? it's their f*cking lives man, what the f*ck is wrong with you? grow up, mind your business.


you seem to have backed off your fears of homosexuality posing a threat to human reproduction, perhaps because even ISH's dumbest posters know how ridiculous that is. so now we're just left with you wanting to have a real discussion about what happens in the real life version of that near-sketch-comedy commercial you posted in the OP. unbelievable. this is why I said early on this discussion isn't worth it: "I don't really want to concern myself with archaic, unevolved arguments that should have been settled last century."

because the people who argue your side simply don't get it. you're a cro magnon among men




:hammerhead:

It's very simple.

[Legend of Josh]

Everyone says it's "not my business" ... but it's the world I live in. It's the country I live in. It's the state I live in. It's the city I live in. It's the community I live it. The ultimate result is the ending result is going to impact what goes on around me, and my family.

I'm sorry... but I'm not comfortable being in line at the local supermarket and seeing Adam and Steve standing behind their shopping cart one standing behind the other holding the other in front of him... and then turning around kissing the other like you might occasionally see Adam and Eve doing.

I'm sorry everyone... I'm just not comfortable with that. I have a right to feel that way.

I do realize one day... whether it be a year from now, two or a decade or century, that homosexual marriage will be not only legal in our society, but commonly accepted. That doesn't mean I as an individual have to also be comfortable with it, and support it, legal or not.

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

If a man can't help how he feels lust and sexual attraction towards another dude... that's OK... but when it comes to how I personally feel about it, I'm the ignorant idiot, moron, and one who isn't "with the program" and in the dark.

Right?

It's a choice, right? I have the "choice" to feel how I feel... it's within my own control, right? I mean, homosexuals can't control how they feel, but I can and I'm supposed to, otherwise I'm a pile of trash, and while I can't help how I feel, I'm still labeled all the above.

:facepalm

[Big_Dogg]

Everyone says it's "not my business" ... but it's the world I live in. It's the country I live in. It's the state I live in. It's the city I live in. It's the community I live it. The ultimate result is the ending result is going to impact what goes on around me, and my family.

I'm sorry... but I'm not comfortable being in line at the local supermarket and seeing Adam and Steve standing behind their shopping cart one standing behind the other holding the other in front of him... and then turning around kissing the other like you might occasionally see Adam and Eve doing.

I'm sorry everyone... I'm just not comfortable with that. I have a right to feel that way.

I do realize one day... whether it be a year from now, two or a decade or century, that homosexual marriage will be not only legal in our society, but commonly accepted. That doesn't mean I as an individual have to also be comfortable with it, and support it, legal or not.

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

If a man can't help how he feels lust and sexual attraction towards another dude... that's OK... but when it comes to how I personally feel about it, I'm the ignorant idiot, moron, and one who isn't "with the program" and in the dark.

Right?

It's a choice, right? I have the "choice" to feel how I feel... it's within my own control, right? I mean, homosexuals can't control how they feel, but I can and I'm supposed to, otherwise I'm a pile of trash, and while I can't help how I feel, I'm still labeled all the above.

:facepalm

You can feel how you want to feel and complain how it's not right and whatever other excuse you want to use, but the fact is, nobody cares what your personal opinion is on the matter, you can whinge and moan and cry about it all you want about how you don't think it's right and so on, but all your crying is not going to change the fact that at some point same sex marriage is going to get recognized and accepted in society just like same sex relationships were, you need to roll with it or its going to roll over you, its just that simple.

[Nanners]

Everyone says it's "not my business" ... but it's the world I live in. It's the country I live in. It's the state I live in. It's the city I live in. It's the community I live it. The ultimate result is the ending result is going to impact what goes on around me, and my family.

I'm sorry... but I'm not comfortable being in line at the local supermarket and seeing Adam and Steve standing behind their shopping cart one standing behind the other holding the other in front of him... and then turning around kissing the other like you might occasionally see Adam and Eve doing.

I'm sorry everyone... I'm just not comfortable with that. I have a right to feel that way.

I do realize one day... whether it be a year from now, two or a decade or century, that homosexual marriage will be not only legal in our society, but commonly accepted. That doesn't mean I as an individual have to also be comfortable with it, and support it, legal or not.

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

If a man can't help how he feels lust and sexual attraction towards another dude... that's OK... but when it comes to how I personally feel about it, I'm the ignorant idiot, moron, and one who isn't "with the program" and in the dark.

Right?

It's a choice, right? I have the "choice" to feel how I feel... it's within my own control, right? I mean, homosexuals can't control how they feel, but I can and I'm supposed to, otherwise I'm a pile of trash, and while I can't help how I feel, I'm still labeled all the above.

:facepalm

funny, it only took you 5 pages of your arguments getting completely destroyed for you to flat out admit that your concerns really have nothing to do with confused 6 year olds or the future of human reproduction, really you are just a selfish and homophobic idiot.

did you ever stop and think that adam and steve are allowed to make out in the grocery store regardless of whether gay marriage is legal? you are afraid that if gay marriage is legalized, you will see more gay people in public? you want gay marriage to stay illegal because you think that will make the homos hide in the shadows? how ****ing lame are you?

You are a joke. Ok, you have the right to be a bigoted moron because you cant control how you feel... just like KKK members have a right to their opinion and cant control how they feel about black people.

[Legend of Josh]

Too add LD - it's obvious me and you have never been on the best of terms, but really dude, I want this thread to be a respectable back-and-forth discussion without personal insults, etc.

Your last post (like all your others posts in response to me), were pushing some tongue-in-cheek "let me make my point all the while take multiple personal shots @ LOJ" ... asking me to please be snipped, bigot future kids, saying I'm talking out of my ass, defining me as a "moron" ... I'm wasting everyone's time when yet you keep reading and replying, so therefore you must be interested too, or maybe you're more interested in dissecting something I post so you find an opportunity to attempt to bash me on my own personal opinions on a rude and personal level (which is exactly how your post reads BTW).

You say I'm a homophobic person, without actually knowing me in RL, "simple" as if there's absolutely no question about it. I could make the comment you're a homosexual simple, b/c of your defense and support of homosexuality, but that would be foolish and ignorant b/c I don't know you on that level in RL.

I'm a "doofus" (name calling) and I clearly don't know anything, when one could make the argument many other people who share the same views as I do could and would entirely agree with many of the issues and points I've posted. That IMO, tells us you're basing that claim on your own personal opinion and those who think like you, but you present your comments as if they're simple fact, no questions asked.

Poorly thought out replies, and I'm not "smart enough" ... ignorant, etc. Is this your opinion or the opinion of you and others here who support homosexuality? I'd really like to see legit sources from both sides who strongly support each side make the same claims you're making... I suppose that would be more plausible versus something you're simply trying to paint the picture as fact instead of your opinion ... and I guess since LD says so, it must be true, no questions asked. Whatever LD says about LOJ, it must be fact. STFU if you feel differently.

It goes on and on. Your posts in here have been personal attack after personal attack on me personally. I've tried to keep personal attacks down, and tried to keep the discussion on the actual subject.

We both feel strongly about our own position on the subject, but I'm trying to keep things on a respectful level. Why do you feel so compelled to be such a douchebag? Why can't you just make your points without being rude? If I'm learning anything from "the other side" wouldn't it make more sense to be respectful? If I'm not being respectful to the "other side" I apologize, but I honestly am trying to be.

I was hoping I could learn something from this discussion, and others could too. What I'm coming to realize is that everyone attacks me personally on a religious or personal level. I don't feel the same as others, LOL, and that has surely pissed off some peeps. That wasn't my intention. Not at all.

[Legend of Josh]

funny, it only took you 5 pages of your arguments getting completely destroyed for you to flat out admit that your concerns really have nothing to do with confused 6 year olds or the future of human reproduction, really you are just a selfish and homophobic idiot.

did you ever stop and think that adam and steve are allowed to make out in the grocery store regardless of whether gay marriage is legal? you are afraid that if gay marriage is legalized, you will see more gay people in public? you want gay marriage to stay illegal because you think that will make the homos hide in the shadows? how ****ing lame are you?

You are a joke. Ok, you have the right to be a bigoted moron because you cant control how you feel... just like KKK members have a right to their opinion and cant control how they feel about black people.

LOJ compared to KKK. Did I realize a pair of men could "make out" in a grocery store line, legally? Obviously, dude. I'm not the idiot and moron you claim me to be. I was making the point I don't want to witness it. If society is accepting of it, it would be much more common; that was my point... and I wouldn't want to see it, personally. That is all.

I never made any such claim they couldn't, legally.

:oldlol:

You claim I'm just a homophobic hateful filled heart pumping backwoods idiot, moron or whatever ... but damn dudes, it seems like you guys are the ones who are not respecting of other's opinions (mine and those who share my views ** and those people are just ignorant and would be better off dead pieces of sheetz) ... but I think it's clear as day ... the hate is coming from the other camp (in this thread especially; esp those who are attacking me personally, when I'm not attacking anyone who's a homosexual personally)

Yeah? Yep.

[dude77]

loj .. don't let these hypocrites get to you .. they say you're hateful and call you names, then they turn around and hate on you because you don't agree with something .. :oldlol:

[dude77]

LOJ compared to KKK. Did I realize a pair of men could "make out" in a grocery store line, legally? Obviously, dude. I'm not the idiot and moron you claim me to be. I was making the point I don't want to witness it. If society is accepting of it, it would be much more common; that was my point... and I wouldn't want to see it, personally. That is all.

I never made any such claim they couldn't, legally.

:oldlol:

You claim I'm just a homophobic hateful filled heart pumping backwoods idiot, moron or whatever ... but damn dudes, it seems like you guys are the ones who are not respecting of other's opinions (mine and those who share my views ** and those people are just ignorant and would be better off dead pieces of sheetz) ... but I think it's clear as day ... the hate is coming from the other camp (in this thread especially; esp those who are attacking me personally, when I'm not attacking anyone who's a homosexual personally)

Yeah? Yep.

ironic isn't it ? but some people are so sensitive they lose it the moment anyone isn't on the same page as them .. for the retards in this thread .. not liking something and not agreeing with it and being hateful don't exclusively go hand in hand

[Legend of Josh]

loj .. don't let these hypocrites get to you .. they say you're hateful and call you names, then they turn around and hate on you because you don't agree with something .. :oldlol:

I don't see how they can be hypocrites though. If I'm the unenlightened one, that means they must be the enlightened ones, so therefore, they're not hypocrites, they're factual "spewing" next best thing to Supreme Court Justices (right?) while I'm nothing more than baby doo-doo squirts; an ignorant moron who needs to "snip" his private parts because I believe the correct and only way to reproduce (according to M.N.) is male + female (when there's a likely possibility both LD and Nanner's parents share some of the same exact views I do LMAO).

"Dad, you're not a doofus, just Legend of Josh" ... "yeah, he shares your opinion on this subject, but I just don't like him, personally"

:oldlol:

[niko]

Too add LD - it's obvious me and you have never been on the best of terms, but really dude, I want this thread to be a respectable back-and-forth discussion without personal insults, etc.

Your last post (like all your others posts in response to me), were pushing some tongue-in-cheek "let me make my point all the while take multiple personal shots @ LOJ" ... asking me to please be snipped, bigot future kids, saying I'm talking out of my ass, defining me as a "moron" ... I'm wasting everyone's time when yet you keep reading and replying, so therefore you must be interested too, or maybe you're more interested in dissecting something I post so you find an opportunity to attempt to bash me on my own personal opinions on a rude and personal level (which is exactly how your post reads BTW).

You say I'm a homophobic person, without actually knowing me in RL, "simple" as if there's absolutely no question about it. I could make the comment you're a homosexual simple, b/c of your defense and support of homosexuality, but that would be foolish and ignorant b/c I don't know you on that level in RL.

I'm a "doofus" (name calling) and I clearly don't know anything, when one could make the argument many other people who share the same views as I do could and would entirely agree with many of the issues and points I've posted. That IMO, tells us you're basing that claim on your own personal opinion and those who think like you, but you present your comments as if they're simple fact, no questions asked.

Poorly thought out replies, and I'm not "smart enough" ... ignorant, etc. Is this your opinion or the opinion of you and others here who support homosexuality? I'd really like to see legit sources from both sides who strongly support each side make the same claims you're making... I suppose that would be more plausible versus something you're simply trying to paint the picture as fact instead of your opinion ... and I guess since LD says so, it must be true, no questions asked. Whatever LD says about LOJ, it must be fact. STFU if you feel differently.

It goes on and on. Your posts in here have been personal attack after personal attack on me personally. I've tried to keep personal attacks down, and tried to keep the discussion on the actual subject.

We both feel strongly about our own position on the subject, but I'm trying to keep things on a respectful level. Why do you feel so compelled to be such a douchebag? Why can't you just make your points without being rude? If I'm learning anything from "the other side" wouldn't it make more sense to be respectful? If I'm not being respectful to the "other side" I apologize, but I honestly am trying to be.

I was hoping I could learn something from this discussion, and others could too. What I'm coming to realize is that everyone attacks me personally on a religious or personal level. I don't feel the same as others, LOL, and that has surely pissed off some peeps. That wasn't my intention. Not at all.

That is absolutely the most full of shit comment. Your agenda is to argue and push your thoughts. You've made not even the most cursory attempt to understand anyone's POV except your own.

[SCY]

Surprised it took 73 posts for the "You're intolerant of my intolerance!" crap to come out.



Daddy + Daddy = no baby


Yet there she sits. Are you against straight parents adopting or procreating using another means besides vag-inal intercourse? This is purely anecdotal, but I'm acquainted with 2 sets of gay parents and they're fantastic. Their kids are incredibly well behaved. Depriving them of parenthood and the kids of having them as parents because someone finds it icky or they might get picked on (AKA being a kid) would be a travesty. Beyond my anecdotal evidence, it only makes sense that two people who are actually choosing to be parents, and have to jump through a number of hoops to become parents, would be pretty decent at it.

You've managed to admit that the real reason you're against gays and gay marriage is you think it's icky, and you were merely hiding behind a litany of flimsy excuses. I doubt anyone really has a problem with you thinking gays are icky. It's when you try to restrict their rights based on that feeling that creates an issue. There's plenty of things I think are icky, I don't demand legislating all of them.

[brantonli]

I'm not 100% sure why the gay marriage devolved into the 'male + male = no children' thing. So if gays get the right to marry, then suddenly we'll have a whole horde of people turning gay and not having children? Seems a rather fanciful leap of logic...

Anyway, I don't see why 2 gay dads can't explain to a kid where he/she came from. And to be honest, the younger the kid is, ANY parent will find it hard to explain where the child came from, not just gay parents.

and LOL 'confusing and dumbfounding' children? I don't know if you ever knew this as a kid, but if anything confused you, you tend to forget about it within a week :lol

And ultimately, I think it's a bit....disappointing.....to see a person who advocates keeping children out of gay parent homes. How about asking the kid he/she wants to hmmmm? Not an option? Just cause to you, it seems sickening and whatever, doesn't mean the kid agrees with you.



Also, I must point out something. You've said throughout this thread that being gay seems to be a choice, or at least of social environment. Most people don't choose their social environment, you know that right? We don't get to choose our parents income, the household we live in, the school we go to, the classes we get put in.

[Legend of Josh]

That is absolutely the most full of shit comment. Your agenda is to argue and push your thoughts. You've made not even the most cursory attempt to understand anyone's POV except your own.

Yeah, sure. Did you not read the original OP? Time and time again in this very thread I've tried to exhibit my main goal here is to acquire a logical and rational method, answer, etc. that would work with the original scenario in the OP.

So basically I'm in here trolling?

:rolleyes:

I don't care about any of this... I'm just getting a rise out of people, huh? Respectfully, please just STFU and stop posting in the thread if you want to make the bullshit claims you're making; attacking my personal character. I haven't even been attacking you, personally, but you continue to attempt to keep calling me a hater, bigot, etc. - and it's getting tired.

[Legend of Josh]

Surprised it took 73 posts for the "You're intolerant of my intolerance!" crap to come out.



Yet there she sits. Are you against straight parents adopting or procreating using another means besides vag-inal intercourse? This is purely anecdotal, but I'm acquainted with 2 sets of gay parents and they're fantastic. Their kids are incredibly well behaved. Depriving them of parenthood and the kids of having them as parents because someone finds it icky or they might get picked on (AKA being a kid) would be a travesty. Beyond my anecdotal evidence, it only makes sense that two people who are actually choosing to be parents, and have to jump through a number of hoops to become parents, would be pretty decent at it.

You've managed to admit that the real reason you're against gays and gay marriage is you think it's icky, and you were merely hiding behind a litany of flimsy excuses. I doubt anyone really has a problem with you thinking gays are icky. It's when you try to restrict their rights based on that feeling that creates an issue. There's plenty of things I think are icky, I don't demand legislating all of them.

You're a product of the system, and it worked for you. Honestly, kudos to you and I applaud your same sex parents (I am curious though, male or female, just out of pure curiosity). I hope more results will mirror your outcome, and I'm sure there will be many of them.

I'm also sure there will be many that will not. If my thread has offended you on a personal level SCY, then I apologize, but I did not intend for any of this to offend anyone. I just feel the way I do, and it's here in discussion form. I can appreciate your thoughts and opinions on this debate well beyond others in here b/c you've experienced this first hand.

Again, sorry if I offended.

[SCY]

You're a product of the system, and it worked for you. Honestly, kudos to you and I applaud your same sex parents (I am curious though, male or female, just out of pure curiosity). I hope more results will mirror your outcome, and I'm sure there will be many of them.

I'm also sure there will be many that will not. If my thread has offended you on a personal level SCY, then I apologize, but I did not intend for any of this to offend anyone. I just feel the way I do, and it's here in discussion form. I can appreciate your thoughts and opinions on this debate well beyond others in here b/c you've experienced this first hand.

Again, sorry if I offended.

Haha. Guess you couldn't refute anything I said then. My parents were straight and divorced, not that I'd be embarrassed at all if they were gay.

[Legend of Josh]

Haha. Guess you couldn't refute anything I said then. My parents were straight and divorced, not that I'd be embarrassed at all if they were gay.

LOL, what WHAT THE FU*K?! I could have sworn your post said something to the effect that YOU were adopted by gay parents, and that you were saying you turned out fine, etc.

Did you edit your post in a timely manner where it didn't show the *edited by* at the bottom?

:wtf:

I swear man, your post said something about you were adopted by gay parents. Damn, maybe my vision is starting to get blurry from being up too many hours without sleep.

[niko]

Yeah, sure. Did you not read the original OP? Time and time again in this very thread I've tried to exhibit my main goal here is to acquire a logical and rational method, answer, etc. that would work with the original scenario in the OP.

So basically I'm in here trolling?

:rolleyes:

I don't care about any of this... I'm just getting a rise out of people, huh? Respectfully, please just STFU and stop posting in the thread if you want to make the bullshit claims you're making; attacking my personal character. I haven't even been attacking you, personally, but you continue to attempt to keep calling me a hater, bigot, etc. - and it's getting tired.
You've said multiple times you'd like to hear others thoughts and understand. You've also not even made a cursory attempt to thing that there might be part of this you are wrong about. Telling everyone to tell you their thoughts and immediately shooting them down, then saying "but please keep talking" is not trying to understand other's opinions.

And I'll stop posting when i feel like it. I may just post :coleman: every other post for the remainder of the thread.

[Hazard]

I have a few gay friends, each one has at least one story where they got the shit beaten out of them and left to die on the ground for being gay, or their parents disowning them etc. It amazes me that people think its a choice to be gay and subjugate yourself to that sort of treatment.

Coming from a moral standpoint, would it be more acceptable to promote the type of thinking that being gay is wrong and have more violent outbursts against them or to accept them in society and give them all the rights that we ourselves enjoy? Its a question of full condemnation, which exists right now, or to live and let live.

[niko]

I have a few gay friends, each one has at least one story where they got the shit beaten out of them and left to die on the ground for being gay, or their parents disowning them etc. It amazes me that people think its a choice to be gay and subjugate yourself to that sort of treatment.

Coming from a moral standpoint, would it be more acceptable to promote the type of thinking that being gay is wrong and have more violent outbursts against them or to accept them in society and give them all the rights that we ourselves enjoy? Its a question of full condemnation, which exists right now, or to live and let live.
When i was a teacher one of the girls had real gender issues. She was basically an outcast. Treated like utter and total shit, and even those who weren't mean, stayed away as to not be in the line of fire.

OP wants to say that she chose to be how she was. She didn't choose that any more than she chose being short, or being asian, or being born to her parents. TO me, if this was all a choice, none of the behaviors would show up as early as they do.

[General]

Coming from a moral standpoint, would it be more acceptable to promote the type of thinking that being gay is wrong and have more violent outbursts against them or to accept them in society and give them all the rights that we ourselves enjoy? Its a question of full condemnation, which exists right now, or to live and let live.
Gays have all the same rights that straight people have. In California their relationships are recognized as a Domestic partnership.

[Charlie Sheen]

Hilarious!

:rolleyes:

... but honestly though, how would two men properly inform/educate/etc their child on said topic? How do they go about this without instilling deep down confusion and dumbfounding them?

i maybe wrong...this is what i read


How do they go about this without infecting them with gay?

[Lamar Doom]

funny, it only took you 5 pages of your arguments getting completely destroyed for you to flat out admit that your concerns really have nothing to do with confused 6 year olds or the future of human reproduction, really you are just a selfish and homophobic idiot.



This. Exactly what I'm saying.


You've said multiple times you'd like to hear others thoughts and understand. You've also not even made a cursory attempt to think that there might be part of this you are wrong about. Telling everyone to tell you their thoughts and immediately shooting them down, then saying "but please keep talking" is not trying to understand other's opinions.



This.



but some people are so sensitive they lose it the moment anyone isn't on the same page as them

The VAST majority of social, economic, and political issues has a grey area for me where I would have respect for someones opinion that differed from mine or is an issue that I'm conflicted about myself. This is not one. Bigotry is not something that deserves my respect and as I stated earlier these people are literally slowing down human progress.


loj .. don't let these hypocrites get to you .. they say you're hateful and call you names, then they turn around and hate on you because you don't agree with something .. :oldlol:

"Hate" directed towards a specific person based on their actions and hating on and attempting to oppress an entire portion of the population is not the same thing.

[Lamar Doom]

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

I disagree. I harbored some homophobia and probably would have argued against gay marriage until I was 18-ish. Life experience and a desire to be good and think about what's really important led me away from that. I still think two dudes having sex is f*cking gross, I just don't give a shit and I'm certainly not going to condemn them for it.

nobody's saying you're not entitled to your opinion. MY opinion is it makes you ignorant and a drag on humanity.

[Legend of Josh]

When i was a teacher one of the girls had real gender issues. She was basically an outcast. Treated like utter and total shit, and even those who weren't mean, stayed away as to not be in the line of fire.

OP wants to say that she chose to be how she was. She didn't choose that any more than she chose being short, or being asian, or being born to her parents. TO me, if this was all a choice, none of the behaviors would show up as early as they do.

Yeah, b/c race and sexual orientation are one in the same.

:bowdown: ... :applause: ... :facepalm

I can at least say LD and even Nanners along with a few others have presented some points that do get the wheels turning upstairs, forcing me to contemplate things in a different realm of thinking, but post after post from you I'm left sharply (and unsurprisingly) disappointed, and I don't think you're an idiot.

I just see you wanting to get your point(s) across in an intelligent and factual manner, but I simply find it ignorant (pay close attention, I'm not saying you, I'm saying your mindset and logic) to make some comparison along the lines of:

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.

[Charlie Sheen]

Yeah, b/c race and sexual orientation are one in the same.

:bowdown: ... :applause: ... :facepalm

I can at least say LD and even Nanners along with a few others have presented some points that do get the wheels turning upstairs, forcing me to contemplate things in a different realm of thinking, but post after post from you I'm left sharply (and unsurprisingly) disappointed, and I don't think you're an idiot.

I just see you wanting to get your point(s) across in an intelligent and factual manner, but I simply find it ignorant (pay close attention, I'm not saying you, I'm saying your mindset and logic) to make some comparison along the lines of:

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.
u cant visualize sexuality the same way u do asian or eye color...theres plenty of evidence bout sexual orientation at birth or developed very early...reading ur posts u just dont want to hear it.

[niko]

Yeah, b/c race and sexual orientation are one in the same.

:bowdown: ... :applause: ... :facepalm

I can at least say LD and even Nanners along with a few others have presented some points that do get the wheels turning upstairs, forcing me to contemplate things in a different realm of thinking, but post after post from you I'm left sharply (and unsurprisingly) disappointed, and I don't think you're an idiot.

I just see you wanting to get your point(s) across in an intelligent and factual manner, but I simply find it ignorant (pay close attention, I'm not saying you, I'm saying your mindset and logic) to make some comparison along the lines of:

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.

You say it's a choice. Which means these kids (who are very young), as they are growing up and developing their sexuality HAVE CHOSEN TO BE GAY. Even though it's a terrible path that makes them terribly unhappy. Even though it gets them beaten, and ostracised, and they openly wish it to not be true. Pretend it's not true.

That makes no sense. I get it's not part of your worldview, but how is this a choice?

[Nanners]

just like every single other one of LOJs arguments in this thread, genetic vs environmental does not matter. whether or not someone chose to be gay or became gay because of their environment, doesnt not dictate whether they deserve fewer rights.


lets have a quick recap of the arguments LOJ has presented against gay marriage in this thread:

first argument: homo marriage is bad because its hard to explain to 6 year olds.
-garbage argument because a lot of things are hard to explain to 6 year olds, especially sexuality.

second argument: homo marriage is "unnnatural" because "man + man =/= child".
-garbage argument because countless aspects of human society are "unnatural", and who are you to define what is "natural" in the first place?

third argument: homo marriage is a threat to humanity because it could lower reproductive rates when all the men stop having sex with women.
-absolutely absurd. first of all, it would be good if reproductive rates went down considering 1 in 5 people on this planet go hungry every day. secondly, its not like all the straight people are just going to suddenly go gay just because gay marriage becomes legal. if you want to go gay, I will knock up your woman for you.

fourth argument: homos making out in the supermarket is gross, and i dont want to have to be around gay people.
-okay so you finally admit you are a scared and selfish homophobe. wouldnt it have been easier to do this in the first place?

i challenge anybody to present a single valid argument against homo marriage. it cannot be done.

[niko]

just like every single other one of LOJs arguments in this thread, genetic vs environmental does not matter. whether or not someone chose to be gay or became gay because of their environment, doesnt not dictate whether they deserve fewer rights.


lets have a quick recap of the arguments LOJ has presented against gay marriage in this thread:

first argument: homo marriage is bad because its hard to explain to 6 year olds.
-garbage argument because a lot of things are hard to explain to 6 year olds, especially sexuality.

second argument: homo marriage is "unnnatural" because "man + man =/= child".
-garbage argument because countless aspects of human society are "unnatural", and who are you to define what is "natural" in the first place?

third argument: homo marriage is a threat to humanity because it could lower reproductive rates when all the men stop having sex with women.
-absolutely absurd. first of all, it would be good if reproductive rates went down considering 1 in 5 people on this planet go hungry every day. secondly, its not like all the straight people are just going to suddenly go gay just because gay marriage becomes legal. if you want to go gay, I will knock up your woman for you.

fourth argument: homos making out in the supermarket is gross, and i dont want to have to be around gay people.
-okay so you finally admit you are a scared and selfish homophobe. wouldnt it have been easier to do this in the first place?

i challenge anybody to present a single valid argument against homo marriage. it cannot be done.

You also don't need two parents to adopt a child. Babies are scarce (especially white babies) so if you have two parents, it's seen as more stable so it's easier. But a single parent can adopt. I've seen it.

By LOJ argument, it would seem you need to be a husband, a wife, and only then could you adopt. Single Parents get babies, are gay single parents not allowed or is it only gay couples?

[Legend of Josh]

u cant visualize sexuality the same way u do asian or eye color...theres plenty of evidence bout sexual orientation at birth or developed very early...reading ur posts u just dont want to hear it.

What evidence, exactly? Really, serious question. If there were genuine evidence one is born gay, there wouldn't be such a heated debate going on in the country right now on the gay marriage issue. I'd actually love to hear... if there's factual evidence my stance is wrong then I'd have no other choice but to change my mind and come to the realization those who are gay, are born gay. If Obama and Biden openly support gay marriage, is that the proof?

[Nanners]

using LOJ logic you can easily argue that we should make it illegal for people to become 800lbs and require a hoverround.

1. fat people are gross. you seen a fat person in the supermarket before? my mom always told me not to go shopping hungry, but it really doesnt matter since i lose my appetite when i see the other grocery shoppers

2. its a choice to be fat, its not like you are just born fat. if gay people can stop being gay, fat people can stop being fat. also like 1/3 of america is obese, so there are obviously way more fat people than there are gay people. i wont even talk about how the fatties make healthcare more expensive for everybody else.

if gay marriage should be illegal, so should obesity. you rule josh

[Legend of Josh]

You say it's a choice. Which means these kids (who are very young), as they are growing up and developing their sexuality HAVE CHOSEN TO BE GAY. Even though it's a terrible path that makes them terribly unhappy. Even though it gets them beaten, and ostracised, and they openly wish it to not be true. Pretend it's not true.

That makes no sense. I get it's not part of your worldview, but how is this a choice?

You talk about the "young age kids" who feel at an early age they are attracted to the same sex... and that's a fair point. I'm not in their shoes, so I can't say I comprehend what's going on in their mind, or where they're coming from.

Also, what about the adults who said they once thought they were once "born gay" but later on in life came to the realization they were all along attracted to the opposite sex and not gay.

How is that scenario explained? It happens, all the time.

[Charlie Sheen]

What evidence, exactly? Really, serious question. If there were genuine evidence one is born gay, there wouldn't be such a heated debate going on in the country right now on the gay marriage issue. I'd actually love to hear... if there's factual evidence my stance is wrong then I'd have no other choice but to change my mind and come to the realization those who are gay, are born gay.
lotsa studies from people smarter than u and me establsihing the link yep...this isnt new science. start here http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

[Mach_3]

No, what you don't understand is that you claim homosexuals are 100% born that way, when you DO NOT know that entirely. How do you know no homosexual chooses to be gay?

There are countless videos on YouTube, articles on the internet where previously gay people claimed they were once "born gay" however now understand within themselves that they once MADE A PERSONAL CHOICE to be gay, but now they're MAKING THE CHOICE to be heterosexual and they claim they fully believe they were originally born heterosexual, and not born homosexual.

How do you refute their claims?

:confusedshrug:

What you're doing saying it's FACT that homosexuals are born gay, PERIOD, is what comes across as something you obviously don't even remotely understand. It's your opinion they're born gay. It's my opinion there's an overwhelming factor (if not entirely) it's based on social environment.

Again, at this point it's all opinion ... so stop making yourself look like you're clueless about actual facts here versus opinion.

There is no scientific evidence to suggest at all that being homosexual is a choice. While there is strong evidence linking things like finger length to extreme feminine or masculine emotional responses. I've never once heard a straight male say "i chose to be straight!" or a homosexual claim that they just started liking boys randomly one day.

I have enough homosexual friends where nearly all of the ones i've ever asked this question always told me that it was just the way they've felt since kids can start developing feelings for each other. 25 years of my life and all the evidence i've ever seen points towards it being some kind of internal thing. And until i see anything to the contrary, besides a statement made by someone who isn't even a homosexual i'll continue to believe that.

If gay people really hated being gay and all that like Niko said, then why wouldn't they just become straight so they aren't hated on anymore by their peers. Like u said it is a choice right?

[Legend of Josh]

lotsa studies from people smarter than u and me establsihing the link yep...this isnt new science. start here http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

Thanks for the link; I'll check it out.

[Mach_3]

I have a few gay friends, each one has at least one story where they got the shit beaten out of them and left to die on the ground for being gay, or their parents disowning them etc. It amazes me that people think its a choice to be gay and subjugate yourself to that sort of treatment.

Coming from a moral standpoint, would it be more acceptable to promote the type of thinking that being gay is wrong and have more violent outbursts against them or to accept them in society and give them all the rights that we ourselves enjoy? Its a question of full condemnation, which exists right now, or to live and let live.

This. It makes no sense in my head why a child would choose to be something that they know would get them beaten up, treated like an outcast, made fun of etc. Especially during a time in their lives when being "in" and with the "cool kids" is a huge part of a child's life in school and in social environments. Most kids just wanna be normal kids and treated like everyone else, so why would they purposely choose to be different from everyone else? I've never once heard any of my gay friends/ people i know say that they chose to have sexual preferences towards men. and every story i've heard from anyone else is almost the same exact thing

[niko]

I don't think people realize how hurtful it is to tell gay people they cannot get married. You are basically telling people who grew up, saw their friends marry the people they love, that your relationship,it's not normal, or not important enough for marriage. The deep admittance to everyone that you are now one unit with this other person, you are not allowed to have that. Because non gay people don't want their word associated with gay people.

It's pretty f'd up when you think about it. People want rights taken away from some people simply because they don't want the word marriage used for people who have different sexual orientations.

[brantonli]

Well, sexual orientation is something you're 100% born with, FACT! Just like you're born an Asian, FACT! You're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT! You're born with brown eyes, FACT!

There's absolutely no proof someone is born attracted to the same sex AT BIRTH. It's not a FACT, like being Asian, to two particular parents, etc is; the claim that one is born attracted to the same sex is (at this point) OPINION. Hopefully at some point science will advance enough to arrive at one side or the other, period.

However, I believe we'll be stuck debating the genetic VS social environment (choice) steez.

LOJ you almost immediately contradict yourself within 3 paragraphs. Obviously (and correctly) you say 'you're born into your parents, you can't change them or choose them, FACT!'

That's completely correct.

AND THEN you go on to say 'social environment (choice)' Uh, I don't know if you noticed, but when you grew up as a teenager, did you choose the neighbourhood you lived in, the teachers that taught you, the class you got put into, the social circle you got put into?

And ultimately, did you choose the people you fell for?

How on earth is social environment a choice? It simply boggles the mind that such an extraordinary leap of logic can be employed and nobody else picks it up.

[tpols]

What you don't understand is that NO homosexual ever "chooses" to be homosexual, they are just born that way. How can you condemn a part of our society just because they were born a certain way? What your doing almost literally sounds like bigotry
I think LOJ's point is that early family upbringing/experiences has more to do with if someone turns out gay or not.

There's no 'gene' that determines 100% whether you're gay or not.. it's not a disease. There's predispositions.. that certain life experiences can bring to reality.

Being raised in a 2 daddy household would probably be more than enough to bring that out. I can definitely see some problems with that coming up. People want to act like they're all open minded and rational and free thinkers who are on a different plane of intelligence and life perspective while they pump out their ideals on a message board but EVERYONE knows what people think in the real world.. I myself recognize the open mindset as making more sense than the OP's, but when you see it in real life, it just doesnt seem right by instinct.