Wilt Chamberlain's choking resume

[Deuce Bigalow]

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[1987_Lakers]

Will jlauber take the bait?

[andgar923]

Will jlauber take the bait?

Get ready for newspaper clippings talking about some other games, and stories that are for the most part irrelevant.

[Horatio33]

Destruction. How many MASSIVE INJURIES will Wilt and his teammates have had to choke these games away, jlauber?

Free throws matter, kids!

Bravo, Deuce!

[BoutPractice]

How many times can the same conversation be had?
It's like watching two politicians arguing, always with the same bs.

[jlauber]

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. Wilt did not manage to score more than 35 points in any game of this series. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

It's late, so I am going to take my time, and deal with this nonsense...one-by-one...

61-62 ECF's

Chamberlain not only managed to have TWO games of 40+, in one of them he outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him in that same game, 37-20, while outshooting Russell from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14.. With all of that, his TEAM won the game by a 113-106 margin.

Chamberlain took what had been the core of the same basic LAST PLACE roster he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record that season. Meanwhile, Russell and his SIX other HOF teammates went 60-20.

During the regular season, Chamberlain averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 against Russell in ten H2H games, in an NBA season in which the league averaged 118.8 ppg and on .426 shooting.

In the ECF's, Wilt "declined" all the way down to 33.6 ppg on .468 shooting. Meanwhile, he held Russell, who had shot .457 against the NBA during the regular season, to .399 shooting in that series. Oh, and BTW, the NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting in the '62 playoffs. Chamberlain was WAY over the league average in FG% against Russell in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. Meanwhile, and as was almost ALWAYS the case, Chamberlain held Russell BELOW the league average.

Overall, Wilt's teammates shot .354 in that post-season. His two "HOF' teammates, Arizin and Gola shot .375 and .271 respectively.

With all of that, Wilt carried that putrid roster to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics.

Wilt's teammate, Tom Meschery summed it up best, "The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was WILT's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

BTW, Chamberlain shot 58-92 from the line. Russell was at 36-51. So, as always, Wilt nearly DOUBLED Russell's scoring just from the FT line.

FT's matter kids...and Wilt AND his TEAM almost always SCORED more than their opponents. In MANY cases by HUGE margins.

[BrickingStar]

Don't let go Jimmy my boy just pull it it slowly Jimmy lift the rod now Jimmy!

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's late, so I am going to take my time, and deal with this nonsense...one-by-one...

61-62 ECF's

Chamberlain not only managed to have TWO games of 40+, in one of them he outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him in that same game, 37-20, while outshooting Russell from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14.. With all of that, his TEAM won the game by a 113-106 margin.

Chamberlain took what had been the core of the same basic LAST PLACE roster he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record that season. Meanwhile, Russell and his SIX other HOF teammates went 60-20.

During the regular season, Chamberlain averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 against Russell in ten H2H games, in an NBA season in which the league averaged 118.8 ppg and on .426 shooting.

In the ECF's, Wilt "declined" all the way down to 33.6 ppg on .468 shooting. Meanwhile, he held Russell, who had shot .457 against the NBA during the regular season, to .399 shooting in that series. Oh, and BTW, the NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting in the '62 playoffs. Chamberlain was WAY over the league average in FG% against Russell in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. Meanwhile, and as was almost ALWAYS the case, Chamberlain held Russell BELOW the league average.

Overall, Wilt's teammates shot .354 in that post-season. His two "HOF' teammates, Arizin and Gola shot .375 and .271 respectively.

With all of that, Wilt carried that putrid roster to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics.

Wilt's teammate, Tom Meschery summed it up best, "The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was WILT's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

BTW, Chamberlain shot 58-92 from the line. Russell was at 36-51. So, as always, Wilt nearly DOUBLED Russell's scoring just from the FT line.
Fixed. But why was Wilt the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in game 7 the year he averaged 50.4 for the season?

And this isn't about his teammates, IN GAME 7 HE WAS THE 4TH LEADING SCORER IN THE GAME. HIS TEAMMATE MESCHERRY SCORED 32 POINTS, 10 MORE THAN WILT, 3 of his other other teammates scored 19, 18, and 16 points. LOL at blaming his teammates when he only scored 22 and had a teammate who scored more than double digits than Wilt himself.

[Miserio]

This is the PURE IMAGE OF CHOKING:

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5

[jlauber]

Fixed. But why was Wilt the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in game 7 the year he averaged 50.4 for the season?

Why was Larry Bird the 4th leading scorer in his only game seven in the Finals, and on a horrid 6-18 shooting?

Why was Kareem outscored, outrebounded, and outshot by his opposing centers in his only two game seven's in the Finals?

And how come Kobe could only shoot 6-24 in his only game seven in the NBA Finals?

BTW, game recaps had Chamberlain playing OUTSTANDING defense. He also scored the Warriors last four points, including 2-2 from the line. And he was called for a controversial goal-tending with a minute left.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This is the PURE IMAGE OF CHOKING:

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

[jlauber]

This is the PURE IMAGE OF CHOKING:

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5

Give me a list of the players who had THREE 50+ point games, in the "absolute limit" games of a post-season series. Or games of 56-35, 53-22, 50-35, 46-34, and 45-27 in "must-win" post-season games.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why was Larry Bird the 4th leading scorer in his only game seven in the Finals, and on a horrid 6-18 shooting?

Why was Kareem outscored, outrebounded, and outshot by his opposing centers in his only two game seven's in the Finals?

And how come Kobe could only shoot 6-24 in his only game seven in the NBA Finals?

BTW, game recaps had Chamberlain playing OUTSTANDING defense. He also scored the Warriors last four points, including 2-2 from the line. And he was called for a controversial goal-tending with a minute left.
Bird's team won, shot 100% from the FT line.

One of those was when Kareem was 38-39

Kobe's team won, had 10 points in the 4th quarter shooting 8-9 from the FT line

[Miserio]

Give me a list of the players who had THREE 50+ point games, in the "absolute limit" games of a post-season series. Or games of 56-35, 53-22, 50-35, 46-34, and 45-27 in "must-win" post-season games.
I dont care. I can give you a list of great players who score more points in the playoffs and when it matters, unlike Chamberlain.

[SyRyanYang]

It's getting old and boring

[TheBigVeto]

Wilt = choker

[b1imtf]

Give me a list of the players who had THREE 50+ point games, in the "absolute limit" games of a post-season series. Or games of 56-35, 53-22, 50-35, 46-34, and 45-27 in "must-win" post-season games.
Give me another superstar who drops basically 8 ppg in the playoffs

[Punpun]

So, I take it Wilt was a system baby unable to carry the load up to the very end huh ?

:yaohappy:

[Asukal]

Just drop it guys, jlauber is a stan and will never admit that Wilt has a weakness and that is free throw shooting. :confusedshrug:

Inb4 storm of text.....

[dunksby]

jlauber does not like to talk about play offs.

[ThaRegul8r]

It's getting old and boring

People keep doing this because it's guaranteed to work. It's Pavlovian. The inevitable response reinforces the behavior, making it more likely to recur. Not responding = no reinforcement = extinguishment of behavior. This is basic stuff.

[Yung D-Will]

jluabar is like batman. One day ISH won't need someone to defend Wilt and they'll defend him themselves, but until that day jluabar must be an everlasting symbol of Wilt fans.


To much Dark knight?

[Legends66NBA7]

jluabar is like batman. One day ISH won't need someone to defend Wilt and they'll defend him themselves, but until that day jluabar must be an everlasting symbol of Wilt fans.


To much Dark knight?

Funny thing is, Wilt isn't even a choker and he doesn't need much defending.

If anybody wanted to look at this whole playoff resume and realize the context of his numbers, he was one of the best playoff performers. Pointing out the one's he "failed", doesn't he wasn't one of the best playoff performers overall. Anybody can point out horrible playoff failures, but that doesn't make them terrible or "chokers".

Dude was the anchor for 2 of the greatest teams of all-time. I think that alone, deserves for a guy to be recognized as one of the greatest ever, all-time wise/playoff wise.

[kennethgriffin]

It's late, so I am going to take my time, and deal with this nonsense...one-by-one...

61-62 ECF's

Chamberlain not only managed to have TWO games of 40+, in one of them he outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him in that same game, 37-20, while outshooting Russell from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14.. With all of that, his TEAM won the game by a 113-106 margin.

Chamberlain took what had been the core of the same basic LAST PLACE roster he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record that season. Meanwhile, Russell and his SIX other HOF teammates went 60-20.

During the regular season, Chamberlain averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 against Russell in ten H2H games, in an NBA season in which the league averaged 118.8 ppg and on .426 shooting.

In the ECF's, Wilt "declined" all the way down to 33.6 ppg on .468 shooting. Meanwhile, he held Russell, who had shot .457 against the NBA during the regular season, to .399 shooting in that series. Oh, and BTW, the NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting in the '62 playoffs. Chamberlain was WAY over the league average in FG% against Russell in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. Meanwhile, and as was almost ALWAYS the case, Chamberlain held Russell BELOW the league average.

Overall, Wilt's teammates shot .354 in that post-season. His two "HOF' teammates, Arizin and Gola shot .375 and .271 respectively.

With all of that, Wilt carried that putrid roster to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics.

Wilt's teammate, Tom Meschery summed it up best, "The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was WILT's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

BTW, Chamberlain shot 58-92 from the line. Russell was at 36-51. So, as always, Wilt nearly DOUBLED Russell's scoring just from the FT line.

FT's matter kids...and Wilt AND his TEAM almost always SCORED more than their opponents. In MANY cases by HUGE margins.

i remember watching an interview with wilt and russell... and even wilt himself admited he was a choker


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=173M7ApCNKw

i think its this one


costas - "do you lack killer instinct"

wilt - "it could be said..... it could be said"

[Deuce Bigalow]

Funny thing is, Wilt isn't even a choker and he doesn't need much defending.

If anybody wanted to look at this whole playoff resume and realize the context of his numbers, he was one of the best playoff performers. Pointing out the one's he "failed", doesn't he wasn't one of the best playoff performers overall. Anybody can point out horrible playoff failures, but that doesn't make them terrible or "chokers".

Dude was the anchor for 2 of the greatest teams of all-time. I think that alone, deserves for a guy to be recognized as one of the greatest ever, all-time wise/playoff wise.
How is he not? His whole Playoff resume shows a huge drop in production and failures series after series.

[Heavincent]

Wow those are astonishingly bad FT numbers. Somewhere around 60% from the line would be fine for a big man I guess, but under 40%? :oldlol: :facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

Wow those are astonishingly bad FT numbers. Somewhere around 60% for the line would be fine for a big man I guess, but under 40%? :oldlol: :facepalm


the year wilt averaged 50 and dropped 100 they let players jump over the free throw line for free throws... he regularly got almost layups instead of having to shoot them... this is probably why for his 100 pt game he shot 30 of 32 ft's or something

whenever there was untelevised games... players did it. but on tv i think they were too scared of being caught on tape

[Horatio33]

the year wilt averaged 50 and dropped 100 they let players jump over the free throw line for free throws... he regularly got almost layups instead of having to shoot them... this is probably why for his 100 pt game he shot 30 of 32 ft's or something

whenever there was untelevised games... players did it. but on tv i think they were too scared of being caught on tape

No they didn't let players jump over the line. Never existed in NBA history. He just sucked at free throws.

[Deuce Bigalow]

the year wilt averaged 50 and dropped 100 they let players jump over the free throw line for free throws... he regularly got almost layups instead of having to shoot them... this is probably why for his 100 pt game he shot 30 of 32 ft's or something

whenever there was untelevised games... players did it. but on tv i think they were too scared of being caught on tape
:oldlol: :roll: griff

[Deuce Bigalow]

A guy who averaged 50.4 PPG for the season, then in the Playoffs in a Game 7 loss he was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points.

You are going to tell me that is not choking? That is just one example.

[DatAsh]

People keep doing this because it's guaranteed to work. It's Pavlovian. The inevitable response reinforces the behavior, making it more likely to recur. Not responding = no reinforcement = extinguishment of behavior. This is basic stuff.

Won't happen

[97 bulls]

Ive never seen Jlauber so befuddled. Nice job pointing out why Wilt is rarely regarded as the greatest player ever in spite of all the stats. It seems as if he rarely came up big in big games. Or he didnt do it enough. And thats why he only has two rings.

[Legends66NBA7]

It seems as if he rarely came up big in big games. Or he didnt do it enough.

This has been debunked, though.

Infact, he showed up enough times in big games. Even dropping 40, 50 point games, grabbing 20+ rebound games.

I don't know what else he could have done.


And thats why he only has two rings.

While, obviously, he did come up short sometimes and he's obvious to blame too, those 2 rings come from 2 of the greatest teams of all-time. He anchored both of those teams and would have been the Playoff/Finals MVP for both those runs. And he had 2 different roles for both of those teams.

Like I mentioned before, that alone, puts him up with the all-time greats.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This has been debunked, though.

Infact, he showed up enough times in big games. Even dropping 40, 50 point games, grabbing 20+ rebound games.

I don't know what else he could have done.



While, obviously, he did come up short sometimes and he's obvious to blame too, those 2 rings come from 2 of the greatest teams of all-time. He anchored both of those teams and would have been the Playoff/Finals MVP for both those runs. And he had 2 different roles for both of those teams.

Like I mentioned before, that alone, puts him up with the all-time greats.
No one is saying he is not an all-time great.

Anyways...

1962 Regular Season: 50.4 PPG
1962 Playoffs: 35.0 PPG
1962 Divisional Finals: 30.7 PPG
Game 7, 1962 Divisional Finals: 22 Points

[97 bulls]

This has been debunked, though.

Infact, he showed up enough times in big games. Even dropping 40, 50 point games, grabbing 20+ rebound games.

I don't know what else he could have done.



While, obviously, he did come up short sometimes and he's obvious to blame too, those 2 rings come from 2 of the greatest teams of all-time. He anchored both of those teams and would have been the Playoff/Finals MVP for both those runs. And he had 2 different roles for both of those teams.

Like I mentioned before, that alone, puts him up with the all-time greats.
Maybe what I stated was a liitttle over the top. My point is, youre trying to compare him to top 5 players in league history. Being a huge Scottie Pippen fan, it would be hypocrtical of me if I penalized Wilt without factoring his circumstances. But Pippen isnt being put in the top 5 discussion. Wilt is.


Its like comparing 500000 thousand dollar sports cars. At that price, I dont want to hear any excuses.

[Pointguard]

A guy who averaged 50.4 PPG for the season, then in the Playoffs in a Game 7 loss he was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points.

You are going to tell me that is not choking? That is just one example.

A great defensive team is going to have priorities. And they can usually stop one player. Boston said that as a team they went at Wilt. Russell was one of the best defenders ever to boot. No great player has ever won it alone against the best defensive team in the league - there are no exceptions.

[Math2]

Destruction. How many MASSIVE INJURIES will Wilt and his teammates have had to choke these games away, jlauber?

Free throws matter, kids!

Bravo, Deuce!

Shaq shouldn't be top 10 then I guess.

[Bigsmoke]

i still pick Wit over anybody besides MJ, Kareem, and maybe a few others

[Bigsmoke]

No one is saying he is not an all-time great.

Anyways...

1962 Regular Season: 50.4 PPG
1962 Playoffs: 35.0 PPG
1962 Divisional Finals: 30.7 PPG
Game 7, 1962 Divisional Finals: 22 Points

i still think that the most shocking stat is his 48.5 minutes per game one

i mean really? :wtf:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Shaq shouldn't be top 10 then I guess.
Shaq shot 50% in the Playoffs and hit the ones that mattered. Shaq himself said that.

For example. '02 WCF, Game 7: 11-15.
5-6 in 4th quarter and OT

'00 WCF, Game 7: 8-12

And he has 4 rings and a winning record in the Finals.

[Deuce Bigalow]

i still pick Wit over anybody besides MJ, Kareem, and maybe a few others
Then enjoy losing in the Playoffs

[Sarcastic]

Shaq shot 50% in the Playoffs and hit the ones that mattered. Shaq himself said that.

For example. '02 WCF, Game 7: 11-15.
5-6 in 4th quarter and OT

'00 WCF, Game 7: 8-12


So basically you're bias is going off of free throws? This is what you are hanging your hat on? Not even considering that he is the greatest rebounder, and one of the best scorers of all time. But some missed free throws is why you trash him?

[Deuce Bigalow]

So basically you're bias is going off of free throws? This is what you are hanging your hat on? Not even considering that he is the greatest rebounder, and one of the best scorers of all time. But some missed free throws is why you trash him?
Just some missed freethrows?

He had multiple games where he missed 9, 10, 11 freethrows in a 1 or 2 point loss in the NBA Finals Game 7, or Divisional Finals Game 7.

And it's not just the freethrows. His "great" scoring dropped in the Playoffs.
He averaged 50.4 PPG in the '62 Regular Season, but in the '62 Divisional Finals Game 7 he scored 22 points.

Or how about the fact that this great scorer was outscored by Sam Jones in all 4 Game 7s vs Boston.

[Legends66NBA7]

Maybe what I stated was a liitttle over the top. My point is, youre trying to compare him to top 5 players in league history. Being a huge Scottie Pippen fan, it would be hypocrtical of me if I penalized Wilt without factoring his circumstances. But Pippen isnt being put in the top 5 discussion. Wilt is.


Its like comparing 500000 thousand dollar sports cars. At that price, I dont want to hear any excuses.

Fair point, but I'm arguing something differently. If you want to say that he's not Top 5 or something, go ahead. I'm trying to say Wilt himself wasn't a "choker". My version of a "choker" is probably someone like Karl Malone or Pete Maravich. Guys who actually did "choke" more often in the playoffs... and they don't have rings either, nor were they the best player on all-time great teams.

And as for comparing player under pressure situations, it's well know that Wilt had different roles when he moved from teams.

In elimination games, from 1960-66, Wilt averaged 40ppg in 12 games. He had 3 of his 4 50+ point games were in those elimination games too. I don't have all the averages, but I'm pretty sure he's averaged in 20+ range in rebounds and his fg% is high, his ft% is low.

In elimination games, from 1967-73, Wilt averaged 23ppg in 12 games (different roles). He wasn't the main scoring option anymore (he was defenive minded Wilt at this time), but still was able to pull out a 45/27 game, 30/27/11 blocks (reported), etc...

You round his scoring average to 31.5ppg in 24 elimination games, with I'm pretty sure he had a rebounding average of 20+, high fg%, high blocks, and his enigma of low ft%.

Obviously, Wilt had his moments that he did "choke", where he should have stepped up more when he was playing a lesser role. But looking at just the raw data, when he wanted too... I think calling him a "choker", just doesn't hold up to me. Not when his actual production and championship resume say otherwise. And with the numbers I have above, people should have a strong notion of nominating Wilt has the greatest (if that's there opinion). I wouldn't have a problem with it.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

If I had two Kobe Bryants on my team I'd trade them both for one Wilt Chamberlain.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Fair point, but I'm arguing something differently. If you want to say that he's not Top 5 or something, go ahead. I'm trying to say Wilt himself wasn't a "choker". My version of a "choker" is probably someone like Karl Malone or Pete Maravich. Guys who actually did "choke" more often in the playoffs... and they don't have rings either, nor did were the best player on all-time great teams.

And as for comparing player under pressure situations, it's well know that Wilt had different roles when he moved from teams.

In elimination games, from 1960-66, Wilt averaged 40ppg in 12 games. He had 3 of his 4 50+ point games were in those elimination games too. I don't have all the averages, but I'm pretty sure he's averaged in 20+ range in rebounds and his fg% is high, his ft% is low.

In elimination games, from 1967-73, Wilt averaged 23ppg in 12 games (different roles). He wasn't the main scoring option anymore (he was defenive minded Wilt at this time), but still was able to pull out a 45/27 game, 30/27/11 blocks (reported), etc...

You round his scoring average to 31.5ppg in 24 elimination games, with I'm pretty sure he had a rebounding average of 20+, high fg%, high blocks, and his enigma of low ft%.

Obviously, Wilt had his moments that he did "choke", where he should have stepped up more when he was playing a lesser role. But looking at just the raw data, when he wanted too... I think calling him a "choker", just doesn't hold up to me. Not when his actual production and championship resume say otherwise. And with the numbers I have above, peope should have a strong notion of nominating Wilt has the greatest (if that's there opinion). I wouldn't have a problem with it.
You have to put those numbers into context because of the pace and the defense of that time.

Here are Wilt's numbers in the 4 Game 7s vs Boston


So why haven't you addressed the bit on Wilt being outscored by Sam Jones...in EVERY game 7 vs Boston?

1962: Wilt scored 22 pts; Jones scores 28 pts (Wilt's 50.4 ppg season)
1965: Wilt scored 30 pts; Jones scores 37 pts Wilt 6-13 FT. 1 point loss.
1968: Wilt scored 14 pts; Jones scores 22 pts Wilt 6-15 FT. 4 point loss.
1969: Wilt scored 18 pts; Jones scores 24 pts (and it was his last career NBA game. ) Wilt 4-13 FT. 2 point loss.

Bottom line: Where was he in those game 7's?
The last 3 Game 7s vs Boston, Wilt's team lost by a total margin of 7 points. Wilt missed 25 FTs (16-41) and averaged only 20.7 PPG, being outscored by Sam Jones everytime.

[Nevaeh]

Fair point, but I'm arguing something differently. If you want to say that he's not Top 5 or something, go ahead. I'm trying to say Wilt himself wasn't a "choker". My version of a "choker" is probably someone like Karl Malone or Pete Maravich. Guys who actually did "choke" more often in the playoffs... and they don't have rings either, nor did were the best player on all-time great teams.

And as for comparing player under pressure situations, it's well know that Wilt had different roles when he moved from teams.

In elimination games, from 1960-66, Wilt averaged 40ppg in 12 games. He had 3 of his 4 50+ point games were in those elimination games too. I don't have all the averages, but I'm pretty sure he's averaged in 20+ range in rebounds and his fg% is high, his ft% is low.

In elimination games, from 1967-73, Wilt averaged 23ppg in 12 games (different roles). He wasn't the main scoring option anymore (he was defenive minded Wilt at this time), but still was able to pull out a 45/27 game, 30/27/11 blocks (reported), etc...

You round his scoring average to 31.5ppg in 24 elimination games, with I'm pretty sure he had a rebounding average of 20+, high fg%, high blocks, and his enigma of low ft%.

Obviously, Wilt had his moments that he did "choke", where he should have stepped up more when he was playing a lesser role. But looking at just the raw data, when he wanted too... I think calling him a "choker", just doesn't hold up to me. Not when his actual production and championship resume say otherwise. And with the numbers I have above, peope should have a strong notion of nominating Wilt has the greatest (if that's there opinion). I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Damn Legends. You look like you're doing the "Jlauber Tribute" with all those Paragraphs.
:oldlol:

Anyway, good stuff.
:cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

Damn Legends. You look like you're doing the "Jlauber Tribute" with all those Paragraphs.
:oldlol:

Anyway, good stuff.
:cheers:

Well, basically all I wanted to say was Wilt as an elimination game player/championship accomplishments > whatever his failures were.

Greatness always trumps the bad times.

[Legends66NBA7]

You have to put those numbers into context because of the pace and the defense of that time.

The context is that Wilt was arguably the greatest player elimination game player of all-time.

You can't just erase his numbers and make up a new value.


I don't even get the Sam Jones argument. Okay, Jones outscored him. And ? Did he grab more rebounds ? Did he have more responsibilities than Wilt ? Was he defended the same as Wilt ? Wilt's not even guarding Jones at all.

But I'm pretty sure that Celtics defense was fronting Wilt every chance they got because they knew the man was a threat. A bigger threat that Jones. Jones outscoring Wilt, shows me more about what Jones role was on that team, while there were more team responsibilities on Wilt.

I give props to Jones for playing his role, though.

[Psileas]

The context is that Wilt was arguably the greatest player elimination game player of all-time.

You can't just erase his numbers and make up a new value.


I don't even get the Sam Jones argument. Okay, Jones outscored him. And ? Did he grab more rebounds ? Did he have more responsibilities than Wilt ? Was he defended the same as Wilt ? Wilt's not even guarding Jones at all.

But I'm pretty sure that Celtics defense was fronting Wilt every chance they got because they knew the man was a threat. A bigger threat that Jones. Jones outscoring Wilt, shows me more about what Jones role was on that team, while there were more team responsibilities on Wilt.

I give props to Jones for playing his role, though.

Just ignore the trolls. Their point isn't to argue and never was. The fact that Wilt won 2 rings and averaged less ppg in the playoffs doesn't mean he wasn't easily among the GOAT playoff performers and a vastly better one than Sam Jones.

[Asukal]

The context is that Wilt was arguably the greatest player elimination game player of all-time.

You can't just erase his numbers and make up a new value.


I don't even get the Sam Jones argument. Okay, Jones outscored him. And ? Did he grab more rebounds ? Did he have more responsibilities than Wilt ? Was he defended the same as Wilt ? Wilt's not even guarding Jones at all.

But I'm pretty sure that Celtics defense was fronting Wilt every chance they got because they knew the man was a threat. A bigger threat that Jones. Jones outscoring Wilt, shows me more about what Jones role was on that team, while there were more team responsibilities on Wilt.

I give props to Jones for playing his role, though.

You realize OP doesn't really believe Wilt is a choker? :biggums:

[Legends66NBA7]

You realize OP doesn't really believe Wilt is a choker? :biggums:

I don't know what he "believes".

Just responding to his post.

[b1imtf]

You realize OP doesn't really believe Wilt is a choker? :biggums:
Why not? :biggums:

[Asukal]

Why not? :biggums:

This has more to do with a certain poster and not actually Wilt. :rolleyes:

[b1imtf]

This has more to do with a certain poster and not actually Wilt. :rolleyes:
I believe he was one..

[scandisk_]

C'mon Deuce give the Stilt some respect man. Though nobody gives a f*ck on those copy pasted tl;dr posts anyway. :oldlol:

[jlauber]

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)



That was it right? That was the story of the entire series, right?

How about this...

Let's start before the season even began shall we? Wilt was saddled with arguably the worst roster an all-time great ever had to overcome. How bad were they? Their new coach, Alex Hannum, conducted a pre-season scrimmage, sans Wilt, against drfat picks and scrubs. Guess which team won? Hannum was stunned by the fact that those players had become so dependent on Wilt, that they had forgotten how to play the game.

YET, Wilt then single-handedly carried that cast of clowns to a 48-32 record, averaging 36.9 ppg, 22.3 rpg, and shooting .524 in the process. BTW, how fast was the "pace" of that NBA? The league averaged 111 ppg on .433 shooting during the regular season...hardly "prolific" (MJ's '87 NBA averaged 109.9 ppg on .480 shooting BTW.)

And, how about the scoring of the NBA playoff teams in that 63-64 post-season? 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting. Keep that mind...

In the first round of the playoffs, and in a seven game series, all Chamberlain could do was to average 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and on .559 shooting! Just staggering numbers considering the "pace" and "efficiency" of that NBA post-season.

Included in those seven games, was a 50 point game, on 22-32 shooting, in game five. Oh, and how did Wilt perform in that game seven. First of all, he held his opposing center, Zelmo Beaty (who would go on to become a multiple all-star) to 10 points. AND, Wilt "the choker" put up a 39 point, 26 rebound, 10 block game.

That setup the Finals, in which Wilt would take as bad a roster as a man has ever had in the post-season, up against Russell, in arguably his greatest season (his defensive win shares was an all-time record that season), and the Celtic Dynasty.

Oh, and BTW, the Celtics had an 8-2 edge in HOFers, too. In fact, Wilt's lone "HOF" teammate was rookie Nate Thurmond, who was playing part-time, out of position (obviously he would become a great center after Wilt), and who would shoot .395 during the regular season.

So, the real question would have been...aside from Thurmond (who once again was a part-timer, and playing out of position), just where would Chamberlain's best teammate, Tom Meschery, who would average 13.5 ppg, 7.7 rpg, and shoot .458...have been camped at on the Celtic bench.

As for the rest of Wilt's teammates? Wayne Hightower, who averaged 13.2 ppg on .385 shooting. Guy Rodgers, who was arguably the WORST shooter of ALL-TIME, who averaged 11.0 ppg on .365 shooting. And hard-nosed Al Attles, who was at 10.9 ppg on .452 shooting. As bad as those guys were...the rest were just awful. Gary Phillips? He shot .370. The legendary Gary Hill averaged 5.1 ppg on .380 shooting. George Lee shot .379. And John Windsor shot .370. And go ahead and look those guys up. None of them played any better with, or without Chamberlain in their careers, and in fact, Attles and Meschery had their best seasons with Wilt.

So, while Chamberlain was shooting .524 from the floor, how about his teammates? They collectively shot .402. BUT, then in the post-season, while Chamberlain was shooting .543, his teammates collectively shot .382.

Back to the Finals. You have read about Wilt's roster. Now, how about that Celtic roster? Satch Sanders and KC Jones...both considered the best defenders at their positions in the league at the time (and while neither should be there...both in the HOF.) Clyle Lovellette, who is in the HOF, and who was a 20 ppg scorer just the year before he played with Boston. Obviously, with that roster, he couldn't even start. Frank Ramsey, who was among the best "6th men" in his career. Then came the heavy hitters. Tom Heinsohn, John Havlicek, and Sam Jones.

Ok, Boston would win that Finals, 4-1. No surprise there, of course. BUT, the last two games were decided in the waning seconds, when Boston won by margins of 3 and 6 points.

How did the Russell-Wilt H2H's go?

Russell averaged 11.2 ppg, 25.2 ppg, and shot .386 from the field. BTW, he also went 12-25 from the line.

Meanwhile, all Wilt could do was to average 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, and shot .517 (once again, in a post-season in which the NBA shot .420.) Oh, and he shot 22-48 from the line. So, Russell outshot Wilt from the line by a .480 to .458 margin, BUT, Wilt outscored Russell from line, as he ALWAYS did, by a 22-12 margin (again...nearly DOUBLE.)

Game 1:

Russell 3-8 from the floor, 3-6 from the line, 9 points, and 25 rebounds.
Wilt 9-20 from the floor, 4-12 from the line, 22 points, and 23 rebounds.

Game 2:

Russell 4-10, 1-4, 9 points, 24 rebounds
Wilt 14-27, 4-9, 32 points, 25 rebounds

Game 3:

Russell 7-19, 2-5, 16 points, 32 rebs
Wilt 15-22, 5-11, 35 points, 25 rebs

Game 4:

Russell 3-9, 2-5, 8 pts, 19 rebs
Wilt 12-23, 3-8, 27 pts, 38 rebs

Game 5:

Russell 5-11, 4-5, 14 pts, 26 rebs
Wilt 12-28, 6-13, 30 pts, 27 rebs.

As usual, in a "must-win" situation, Chamberlain put up a 30-27 game.

Chamberlain "the choker."

Now, swap those rosters, and does anyone in their right mind honestly believe that Russell would have led that inept cast to a title? And given the fact that Wilt proved he could adapt to whatever his coach's would have asked, that Chamberlain's "Celtics" would not have just blown Russell's "Warriors" away?

[jlauber]

You have to put those numbers into context because of the pace and the defense of that time.

Here are Wilt's numbers in the 4 Game 7s vs Boston

The last 3 Game 7s vs Boston, Wilt's team lost by a total margin of 7 points. Wilt missed 25 FTs (16-41) and averaged only 20.7 PPG, being outscored by Sam Jones everytime.

Wait a second...how about RUSSELL in those game seven's?

Russell averaged 13.2 ppg, 24.5 rpg, and shot .465 from the field.
Chamberlain averaged 21.3 ppg, 28.5 rpg, and shot ...get this... .638 from the field!

As for Jones outscoring Wilt in those game seven's...Chamberlain outscored Jones in the '60, '62, '64, '65, '66, and '67 H2H playoff series'.

Oh, and how about comparing Jones' rebounding and FG%'s in those H2H's, too?

And don't give me this crap that Russell didn't HAVE to score against Wilt, either. Chamberlain HAD to score, at least in the first half of his career, as well as do everything that Russell was doing.

BTW, no one has ever explained this one to me...

In the '66 ECF's, when Chamberlain's Sixers were down 3-1, and were facing elimination in game five, (and in a series in which Wilt's teammates collectively .352), Wilt exploded for a 46 point game, with 34 rebounds, on 19-34 shooting. Yes, in a loss. BUT, his teammates were of no help at all.

Ok, so in the '67 ECF's, it was now Russell who was faced with the EXACT set of circumstances. His Celtics had narrowly avoided a sweep in game four, and were down 3-1 going into game five. How did Russell respond when it was obvious that his teammates, finally neutralized by Wilt's, desperately needed him to step up? He quietly went like a lamb to slaughter, scoring a total of FOUR points, and on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds. How about Wilt "the choker" in that clinching game five win? 29 points (22 of which came in the first half when the game was still close), on 10-16 shooting, with 13 assists, 7 blocks, and 36 rebounds.

How come Russell couldn't produce anything close to a 46-34 game against Wilt? And yet, Chamberlain had a TON of similar games in his career against Russell (24 games of 40+ points.)

Go ahead Dunce, give me your explanation...

[jlauber]

Lakers fans at it again.... attacking a legend who helps rebuilt the Lakers franchise

Not only that, but EVERY team Wilt joined would go on to set team W-L records, TWO of which STILL stand.

Wilt took what had been a LAST PLACE team, to a 49-26 record in his rookie season (which was a franchise record at the time.) He would take them to the ECF's in '60 and again in '62 (and in that '62 season, he took his 49-31 Warriors to a game seven, two point loss against the 60-20 Celtics and their SEVEN HOFers.) And, in his 63-64 season, Chamberlain took an awful roster to a 48-32 record, and a trip to the Finals.

Chamberlain was "traded" to the Sixers in mid-season, in the 64-65 year, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. They would go 40-40 in that 64-65 season, and then a 3-1 series romp over the 48-32 Royals, before losing a game seven, by one point, to the 62-18 Celtics (more on that soon.)

BTW, his Warriors would finish 17-63 and then, even with Barry and Thurmond in '65, 35-45. So, Wilt was basically replaced by TWO HOFers, and yet they couldn't even go .500. They would add players like Jeff Mullins and Clyde Lee, and still only go 44-37 in '67. Oh, and BTW, Wilt and his Sixers destroyed that Warrior team in the Finals.

In fact, after that trade to the Sixers, Wilt's TEAMs would have a better record than the Warriors every year until he retired in '73. AND, they wiped out SF in '67, '69, and '73 in the playoffs.

Over the course of the next three seasons, Chamberlain's Sixers had the BEST RECORD in the league each season. Included was a dominating world title in '67(and a 68-13 mark which is STILL a team record), and a 62-20 finish in '68.

Wilt was "traded" to the Lakers, and basically replacing THREE players, and a combined 42 ppg and 18 rpg, and with West missing 20 games, he STILL led the Los Angeles franchise to a then best-ever record.

Over the course of his five seasons in LA, the Lakers went to FOUR Finals, and won their first ever title in Los Angeles, on a team that went 69-13 (which is STILL a franchise record.)

BTW, the year Chamberlain was traded to the Lakers, the Sixers slipped to 55-27, and were wiped out in the first round of the playoffs. And while Wilt's Lakers would get better nearly every season, his old Sixer team got progressively worse. In Wilt's last season in LA, on a 60-22 Laker team that again reached the Finals, the Sixers finished 9-73.

Chamberlain retired after that 72-73 season, and the Laker immediately plummetted to a 47-35 record, and were annihilated in the first round of the playoffs. They would go 30-52 in 73-74, too. They acquired Kareem before the start of the 75-76 season, and still could only finish 40-42.

In fact, the Lakers would not return to where Chamberlain left them, until Magic arrived in the 79-80 season.

THAT was the IMPACT that Chamberlain had on his TEAMs.

[fpliii]

jlauber - I've acquired complete stats for the 60-61 season h2h matchups game by game (MP FG FGA FT FTA REB AST PF PTS); I'm unable to post them to the spreadsheet right now (don't have my computer handy at the moment, so can't do much with google docs), but will do so by the end of the weekend

EDIT: I also have a candidate source on Warriors complete box scores for the 60-61 and 61-62 seasons, and Sixers from 66-67 to 76-77 (excluding 75-76), so this should help with the H2H's not played at the Garden. I'll let you know when I have an update.

[Legends66NBA7]

I believe he was one..

I wasn't intially even responding to the OP, rather another poster.

[MiseryCityTexas]

Wilt was clearly past his prime in the 70s.

[Punpun]

Jlauber going out of his way to write excuses. In reality, only the end results matter. Wilt was a choker who put up empty stats.

:applause:

[fpliii]

Jlauber going out of his way to write excuses. In reality, only the end results matter. Wilt was a choker who put up empty stats.

:applause:

Not that I agree or disagree with you my good man, but what's your top 10? Haven't been around this board that long so I'm trying to get an idea of the board's pulse. :cheers:

[Punpun]

Not that I agree or disagree with you my good man, but what's your top 10? Haven't been around this board that long so I'm trying to get an idea of the board's pulse. :cheers:
You've got the KAJ-MJ tandem taht I really can't separate.

1. MJ
1. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Shaq
5. Kobe
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Russel
10. Wilt

Truly, a classic listing. Not much surprise to it.

[jlauber]

Jlauber going out of his way to write excuses. In reality, only the end results matter. Wilt was a choker who put up empty stats.

:applause:

And you have Kareem in your top-2????

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Aside from Bird, Kareem had the most post-season flop jobs of any all-time great.

Had Wilt played with Magic for TEN seasons I have no doubt that his overall resume would look much better than Kareem's.

Hell, and OLD Chamberlain was a better WINNER in the four years that he and Kareem played in the league together. Kareem went to one Finals in those four years, while Chamberlain went to THREE.

Furthermore, the ONE year in which a prime Kareem won a ring, and before MAGIC, his team had the easiest route to a title in NBA history. They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round. Then, they beat Wilt's Lakers in the WCF's, who were, BTW, without BOTH West and Baylor. Not only that, but Wilt outplayed Kareem in that series, AND, as Wilt left the floor in the last minute of the last game of that series, he received a standing ovation. Oh, and BTW, that game was played in MILWAUKEE. And, then Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team for a title.

I have said it before, but go ahead and compare Chamberlain's and Kareem's first ten seasons in the league (basically their primes.) There wasn't an area in which Kareem was better, including being a "winner."

They each had one ring, but Wilt's one ring came in an era of the greatest dynasty in professional sports history. Wilt had to battle the Celtic Dynasty, and their FIVE to NINE HOFers, for TEN seasons. (And even after that he battled the Knicks and their FOUR HOFers in the '70 Finals, Kareem and Oscar in the '71 WCF's, Kareem and Oscar in '72, the Knicks and their FIVE HOFers in '72, and the Knicks and their SIX HOFers in '73.)

Meanwhile, in Kareem's first ten seasons in the league, the 48-34 Warriors with Barry and a team of no-names won a ring. The 49-33 Blazers won it in '77 (after SWEEPING Kareem's 53-29 Lakers.) The 44-38 Bullets won the title in '78. And the 52-30 Sonics with a bunch of no-names won the title in '79 (after routing a Kareem team that had Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, and Dantley, 4-1.)

How about Kareem's first ten seasons?

1. '69-70. His 56-26 Bucks are blown away in the clinching game five of the ECF's, 132-96, in a game in which Reed easily outplayed him.

2. 70-71. He wins his only ring in the decade...and as previously mentioned, with the easilest road to a title in NBA history.

3. 71-72. In the first round of the playoffs, Kareem is outscored and outshot by Nate Thurmond. In fact, Kareem shoots .405 in that series, but, his teammates easily outplay Nate's. In the WCF's, Kareem, who had shot .574 during the regular season, shoots .457 against Wilt, including a horrid .414 in the last four games of that series. Wilt is widely hailed as outplaying Kareem in that series, and just dominates him in the clinching game six win on the road.

4. 72-73. Kareem takes his 60-22 Bucks down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against a 47-35 Warrior team, and in a series in which he shoots .428 against Thurmond. BTW, Chamberlain then destroys Thurmond in the WCF's, and takes HIS 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 romp over that Warrior team.

73-74. In game seven of the Finals, Kareem is outplayed by a Cowens, particularly in the 4th quarter when Cowens, saddled with five fouls, just dominates him down the stretch in a blowout Celtic win in Milwaukee.

74-75. After Oscar retires, Kareem and his Bucks drop from a 59-23 record down to 38-44. Kareem is subsequently traded. Milwaukee would again go 38-44 the next year without Kareem.

75-76. Kareem and his 40-42 Lakers don't make the playoffs.

76-77. Kareem and his 53-29 Lakers are swept by Walton's 49-33 Blazers in the WCF's.

77-78. Kareem, with a roster that included Nixon, Wilkes, Scott, Hudson, and Dantley, are knocked out in the first round by a 47-35 Sonics team.

78-79. Kareem and the same basic roster as the season before, are routed in the second round by that same Sonics team, with one borderline HOFers and a bunch of no-names, 4-1.

Even after Magic arrived, Kareem had his share of "choke jobs." Moses battered him in both '81 and '83 (including beating Kareem's Lakers with a 40-42 team, and SWEEPING them in '83.) Lost in the "Tragic Johnson" Finals of '84, was Kareem's 7-25 game five., and his overall .481 shooting (in a league that shot .490.) Kareem also declined dramatically from his regular season dominance of Hakeem's Rockets in the stunning '86 WCF's collapse. He won rings in '87 as a third wheel, and then again in '88 as a FIFTH wheel, despite having a simply AWFUL post-season (and an even worse game seven...probably the worst game seven ever by an all-time great.) And, with Magic injured in '89, Kareem was part of yet another sweeping loss. Hell, the year AFTER Kareem retired, the Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record, to a 63-19 record (which was their second best record in the MAGIC-era.)

Sorry, but if you are talking about "choke artists" your boy Kareem may very well be the career leader.

[jlauber]

You've got the KAJ-MJ tandem taht I really can't separate.

1. MJ
1. KAJ
3. Magic
4. Shaq
5. Kobe
6. Duncan
7. Bird
8. Hakeem
9. Russel
10. Wilt

Truly, a classic listing. Not much surprise to it.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Here is the clutch Bird's post-season resume...




Colts18

Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.


Bird played in an NBA that shot about .485 in his CAREER. Yet, in the post-season, he only shot .472. Which is bad enough, BUT, wait...it gets worse. He shot a CAREER .455 in his five FINALS. In fact, he shot UNDER .399 in his 31 Finals games as often as he shot over .499...ELEVEN times (including TWO games of under .299!) His HIGH Finals series was only .488, and his LOW was .419.

And how did the great "Game Seven" Bird fare in his lone game seven FINALS game? 6-18...or 33%.

Furthermore, in his five Finals, he was only the best player in TWO of them, and in fact, lost out to a TEAMMATE in the '81 Finals for the FMVP (Cedric Maxwell.) In fact, Bird wasn't even the SECOND best player on the floor in TWO more ('85 and '87 Finals.)




Then, you have the audacity to rank Hakeem with his two rings, and taking EIGHT teams down in flames in the FIRST ROUND of his 15 post-seasons ahead of Russell, with his 11 rings in 13 seasons.

BTW, what criteria could you possibly be using in which Hakeem would rank ahead of Chamberlain?

:facepalm

[Horatio33]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Here is the clutch Bird's post-season resume...



Then, you have the audacity to rank Hakeem with his two rings, and taking EIGHT teams down in flames in the FIRST ROUND of his 15 post-seasons ahead of Russell, with his 11 rings in 13 seasons.

BTW, what criteria could you possibly be using in which Hakeem would rank ahead of Chamberlain?

:facepalm

You always do this. It's been proven that Wilt wasn't as good as you say, his stats were largely meaningless in the scheme of winning. So you go out of your way to put other players down when it's proven that Wilt didn't have the killer instinct. He even admitted it himself. It's been proven. He missed free throws that could have won him rings.

I'm reading Earl Strom's (NBA ref 60's 70's 80's) said that Wilt had better stats but if wanted anyone to get a clutch basket or rebound he'd take Russell.

[jlauber]

Regarding Wilt's FT shooting in his Finals, how about Shaq in his?

'95 24-42 .571
'00 36-93 .387
'01 39-76 .513
'02 45-68 .661
'04 27-55 .491
'06 14-48 .292

And, Shaq somehow won rings in '00, '01, and '06 with that shooting.

And how about Russell?

He won FIVE rings with this overall post-season shooting...

'57 .365 from the field, .508 from the line.
'61 .427 from the field, .523 from the line
'64 .356 from the field, .552 from the line
'68 .409 from the field, .585 from the line
'69 .423 from the field, .506 from the line

[millwad]

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Then, you have the audacity to rank Hakeem with his two rings, and taking EIGHT teams down in flames in the FIRST ROUND of his 15 post-seasons ahead of Russell, with his 11 rings in 13 seasons.

BTW, what criteria could you possibly be using in which Hakeem would rank ahead of Chamberlain?

:facepalm

Hakeem's two rings are so much more impressive than Wilt's two rings.

Hakeem was the MVP, DPOY and finals MVP in '94 while not having any all-stars next to him.

And in '95 he faced amazing competition while outplaying two of the top 10 centers of all-time in the playoffs while leading his Rockets to a 2nd ring.

Just compare their titles, Wilt let other players take the responsibility on offense while himself faded away to a tied 2nd option and a fourth option. Hakeem lead both of his teams in scoring by far and he did it all.

And then compare the competition, in '95 the Rockets and Hakeem faced two 60 win teams, one 59 win team and then in the finals they faced Shaq and Penny who won 57 games. Now compare that to Wilt's competition in '67, first they faced a 39 win team (who they even lost a game to), then a 60 win Boston team and in the finals they faced a Warrior team who only won 44 games... :facepalm And he only had to play 3 series to get his ring, first against a 39 win team and then to a 44 win team...

Wilt Chamberlain never even lead a team in scoring who actually won it all, in '67 he was tied 2nd in the playoffs and in '72 he was a laughable fourth option on offense.. And of course Wilt was the leading scorer in the regular season but we all know about the fact that Wilt's statpadding didn't work in the playoffs.

And I'd take Hakeem's '94 season over Wilt's '72 season any day of the week, Hakeem was the MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP and he lead his team with out all-stars to the finals where he absolutely destroyed top 10 center Ewing.

Wilt in '72 was a fourth option on offense and he played with HOF:er Gail Goodrich and HOF:er Jerry West.

So yeah, both Wilt and Hakeem has two rings but above you have the difference why Hakeem's rings are so much impressive.

It's so lame that you use Hakeem's 2 rings against him while Wilt himself only won two rings while being less dominant, such a moron way of reasoning.

[millwad]

Regarding Wilt's FT shooting in his Finals, how about Shaq in his?

'95 24-42 .571
'00 36-93 .387
'01 39-76 .513
'02 45-68 .661
'04 27-55 .491
'06 14-48 .292

And, Shaq somehow won rings in '00, '01, and '06 with that shooting.

And how about Russell?

He won FIVE rings with this overall post-season shooting...

'57 .365 from the field, .508 from the line.
'61 .427 from the field, .523 from the line
'64 .356 from the field, .552 from the line
'68 .409 from the field, .585 from the line
'69 .423 from the field, .506 from the line

Again this nonsense, any time someone questions you about Wilt's weaknesses you point out that others had them too, haha.. :facepalm

And tell us this, how many rings did Shaq loose due his worthless FT-shooting? Wilt had major FT-meltdowns in the finals in really close games.

[jlauber]

You always do this. It's been proven that Wilt wasn't as good as you say, his stats were largely meaningless in the scheme of winning. So you go out of your way to put other players down when it's proven that Wilt didn't have the killer instinct. He even admitted it himself. It's been proven. He missed free throws that could have won him rings.

I'm reading Earl Strom's (NBA ref 60's 70's 80's) said that Wilt had better stats but if wanted anyone to get a clutch basket or rebound he'd take Russell.

Page 107 in Cherry's book on Chamberlain:


Norm Drucker was an NBA and ABA ref for 27 seasons. Now retired, living in Southeast Florida, and still trim and natty, Drucker acknowledged:

"Many times if I made a call, Wilt would say, "Good call," even if it was against him. Playing in the pivot was tough. He got pushed pretty good, but never complained. He just played basketball. I have seen pro basketball since the inception of the NBA in 1946. Wilt was the greatest center I've seen in professional basketball. The one who is closest is Jabbar."

[jlauber]

Hakeem's two rings are so much more impressive than Wilt's two rings.

Hakeem was the MVP, DPOY and finals MVP in '94 while not having any all-stars next to him.

And in '95 he faced amazing competition while outplaying two of the top 10 centers of all-time in the playoffs while leading his Rockets to a 2nd ring.

Just compare their titles, Wilt let other players take the responsibility on offense while himself faded away to a tied 2nd option and a fourth option. Hakeem lead both of his teams in scoring by far and he did it all.

And then compare the competition, in '95 the Rockets and Hakeem faced two 60 win teams, one 59 win team and then in the finals they faced Shaq and Penny who won 57 games. Now compare that to Wilt's competition in '67, first they faced a 39 win team (who they even lost a game to), then a 60 win Boston team and in the finals they faced a Warrior team who only won 44 games... :facepalm And he only had to play 3 series to get his ring, first against a 39 win team and then to a 44 win team...

Wilt Chamberlain never even lead a team in scoring who actually won it all, in '67 he was tied 2nd in the playoffs and in '72 he was a laughable fourth option on offense.. And of course Wilt was the leading scorer in the regular season but we all know about the fact that Wilt's statpadding didn't work in the playoffs.

And I'd take Hakeem's '94 season over Wilt's '72 season any day of the week, Hakeem was the MVP, DPOY and Finals MVP and he lead his team with out all-stars to the finals where he absolutely destroyed top 10 center Ewing.

Wilt in '72 was a fourth option on offense and he played with HOF:er Gail Goodrich and HOF:er Jerry West.

So yeah, both Wilt and Hakeem has two rings but above you have the difference why Hakeem's rings are so much impressive.

It's so lame that you use Hakeem's 2 rings against him while Wilt himself only won two rings while being less dominant, such a moron way of reasoning.

Hmmm...Wilt's '67 Sixers routed the EIGHT TIME DEFENDING 60-21 Celtics, with the most loaded roster in NBA history (TEN DEEP.) And his '72 Lakers swamped a 63-19 Bucks team that had gone 66-16 the year before and were almost universally predicted to win not only the title in '72, but many more for years to come. Then, they beat a Knick team with FIVE HOFers.

Compare that with Hakeem winning a ring in the '94 season, which came in a season in which the BEST player in the world did not play. In fact, his 58-24 Rockets beat a Knick team in seven close games....the same Knick team that barely won a seventh game against the Bulls, who were playing without MJ. CLEARLY, had MJ played that season, and Hakeem would only own one ring.

And in the '95 Finals, while Shaq was having his way with Hakeem (28 ppg on an unfathomable .595 shooting, as well as outrbounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem), Hakeem's teammates just murdered Shaq's (outshooting them from the field by a huge margin, outshooting them from the arc by a huge margin, and outscoring them by 50 points from the line.)

:facepalm

[jlauber]

How about this...


Here is an interesting topic...

Chamberlain played in 29 post-season series in his career, and in the process, he faced a HOF starting center in 19 of them (Russell in eight; Thurmond in three; Reed in two; Kareem in two; Bellamy, in two; Lucas in one; and borderline HOFer, Wayne Embry in one.)

He also faced a multiple-all-star center in five more (Kerr in three, and Beaty in two.) So, that means that Chamberlain was playing against either a very good, or even great center, 24 of those 29 series.

I'll let the researchers out there come up with the post-seasons in which he was outplayed by an opposing center. IMHO, though, he was only statistically outplayed by a prime Kareem in the 71-72 WCF's, BUT, by virtually EVERY account of those that witnessed that series, he outplayed Abdul-Jabbar. The two also battled in the 70-71 WCF's, and here again, a PRIME Kareem, and a 34 year old Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery, were a statistical wash. BTW, Chamberlain held Kareem to FG%'s of .481 and .457 in those two series, in seasons in which Kareem shot .577 and .574. And he outrebounded Kareem in both, as well.

Chamberlain and Russell went at it EIGHT times in the post-season, and we know that Wilt outscored and outrebounded Russell in ALL of them, and some by HUGE margins. And, while we don't have much of their overall FG%'s in those eight post-seasons, there is probably a huge possibility that Chamberlain outshot Russell from the floor in all of them, as well, and again, some by HUGE margins.

There was an interesting discussion a while back on the 61-62 WCF's, in which Wilt outscored Russell by a 34-22 ppg margin, and outrebounded him by a 26-25 rpg margin. Oh, and Russell shot .457 against the NBA in the regular season, but against Wilt in that series? .399.

In the '60 ECF's, Wilt outscored Russell, per game, 30.5 ppg to 20.7 ppg. He outrebounded Russell, 28 rpg to 27 rpg. I don't have Wilt's FG% against Russell, but Russell shot .446 against Wilt. BTW, Wilt did have a 50 point game, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds against Russell in that series. And overall, in his entire post-season, Chamberlain shot .496 (in a league that shot .410.)

Chamberlain outscored Russell in the '64 Finals, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg, outrebounded Russell, per game, 27.6 rpg to 25.2 rpg, and outshot Russell overall, by a whopping .517 to .386 margin.

And we also KNOW that Wilt just abused Russell in the '67 ECF's, when he outscored him, per game, 21.6 ppg to 10.2 ppg; outpassed Russell, per game, 10.0 apg to 6.0 apg; outrebounded Russell by a staggering mark of 32.0 rpg to 23.0 rpg; and outshot him from the floor in that series, .556 to .358.

In the seven game series of the 64-65 playoffs, Chamberlain averaged 30 ppg and 31 rpg, to Russell's 16-26. And he outshot Russell by an amazing .555 to .447 margin.

In the 67-68 ECF's, Wilt averaged a 22-23, while Russell was at 15-22. Chamberlain outshot Russell, .487 to .440.

Chamberlain and Thurmond went at it in three post-seasons, and Wilt pounded Nate on the glass in all three, and outshot him by margins of .500-.392; .550 to .398; and an eye-popping .560 to .343 margin.

Wilt and Bellamy battled in two playoff series. In 67-68, Wilt averaged 25.5 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and 6.3 apg, while holding Bellamy to 20 ppg, 16 rpg, and on a .421 FG% (in a season in which he shot .541 overall.) I don't have much from the '70 WCF's, when Wilt's Lakers overcame Atlanta's HCA, and swept the Hawks, 4-0. Wilt did average 17.3 ppg in that series, though. Meanwhile, in Bellamy's nine post-season games, four were against Wilt. His overall numbers were 16.8 ppg, 15.6 rpg, and on .468 shooting. Maybe Psileas or ThaRegul8r can come up with more details.


Chamberlain and Reed went at, as opposing centers in two Finals, (and they also battled in the 67-68 playoffs...again, in a series in which Wilt led both teams in scoring, rebounding, and assists.) Reed won the FMVP in BOTH of those Finals, but it would be a stretch to say that he outplayed Chamberlain in either. In the '70 Finals, Reed and Wilt battled to a draw in the first four games, but then Reed injured his leg in game five (and with his team down by 10 points at the time), and he only played in one quarter of that game, then missed all of game six, and only played in half of game seven. Using total stats, Wilt outscored Reed in that series, 23.2 ppg to 23.0 ppg; outrebounded Reed in that series, 24.1 rpg to 10.5 rpg; and outshot him, .625 to .484. Granted, he missed chunks of that series, and it hurt his overall numbers, but even then, he certainly didn't outplay Chamberlain, who, himself, was nowhere 100%, and was playing only four months after major knee surgery.

In Wilt's LAST Finals, and again, against Reed, Willis won the FMVP. However, while Reed outscored Wilt, per game, 16.4 ppg to 11.6 ppg...Wilt pounded Reed on the glass, 18.6 rpg to 9.2 rpg, and outshot Reed by a .524 to .493 margin.

In the 71-72 Finals, Wilt was outscored, per game, by Jerry Lucas, 20.8 ppg to 19.4 ppg, while Chamberlain outrebounded him, per game, 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg, and outshot Lucas, .600 to .500. BTW, take away Lucas' first game in that series, when he was hitting shots from the Santa Monica Freeway, and he was at 19.5 ppg and on .465 shooting. Wilt easily won the FMVP that year.

In the 64-65 playoffs against Embry, Wilt outscored Embry, per game, 28 ppg to 12.8 ppg, and outrebounded Wayne, 19.5 rpg to 6.3 rpg. I don't know Wilt's exact FG% against Embry, but he shot .530 overall, while Embry shot .438 against Chamberlain.

Chamberlain faced Kerr in three straight post-seasons, and he posted series of 38.6 ppg, 37.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg against him. In the two known series, Kerr averaged 13.7 ppg, 8.3 rpg, and .294 against Wilt in the '60 playoffs, and 17.6 ppg, 16.0 rpg, and shot .341 againt him in the '62 playoffs. I don't have Kerr's exact numbers against Wilt in the '61 playoffs, but overall he averaged 9.3 ppg, 12.4 rpg, and shot .341 (three games against Wilt, and five against Russell.) Incidently, Wilt hung a 56 point, 35 rebound game on Kerr in game five of a best-of-five series, in the '62 playoffs. And he also had a 53 point game against him in the '60 playoffs.

In the '64 WCF's, Wilt outscored Beaty, per game, 38.6 ppg to 14.3 ppg; outrebounded him, per game, 23.0 rpg to 9.5 rpg; and outshot him, .559 to .521. He also pounded Beaty with a 50 point game in that series, and on a staggering 22-32 shooting percentage.

In the '67 playoffs against Dierking, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg, and on .612 shooting. Meanwhile, Dierking averaged 17.5 ppg, 13.0 rpg, 3.5 apg, and shot .427 against Chamberlain.

In the '69 playoffs, and against the Hawks, Wilt averaged 19.7 ppg and I believe around 23 rpg. I don't know Beaty's exact numbers, but overall, in his 11 playoff games, five of which were against Wilt, he averaged 22.5 ppg, 12.9 rpg, and on .432 shooting.

In the '70 playoffs against the Suns, Wilt averaged 23.7 ppg, but I don't have the rest of his numbers. Meanwhile, the Suns starting center, Jim Fox, averaged 11.2 ppg, 10.7 rpg, and shot .362 against Chamberlain.


Wilt faced the Bulls three straight seasons, from '71 thru '73, and Chicago used two centers, Clifford Ray and Tom Boerwinkle in those series. I won't look up their numbers, but I do know that Chamberlain just crushed them on the glass. In any case, he thoroughly outplayed each of them.

IMHO, Wilt's poorest series came against Russell in the '69 Finals. Of course, Wilt was shackled by his coach in that series, too. In any case, Wilt only averaged 11 ppg to Russell's 9 ppg. He also outrebounded Russell in that series, and outshot Russell by a .534 to .391 margin. And in game seven, Wilt outscored Russell, 18-6, outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7, and outrebounded Russell, 27-21.

There you have it.

[DatAsh]

And in the '95 Finals, while Shaq was having his way with Hakeem (28 ppg on an unfathomable .595 shooting, as well as outrbounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem),


:wtf:

Did you even watch the series?

[millwad]

Hmmm...Wilt's '67 Sixers routed the EIGHT TIME DEFENDING 60-21 Celtics, with the most loaded roster in NBA history (TEN DEEP.) And his '72 Lakers swamped a 63-19 Bucks team that had gone 66-16 the year before and were almost universally predicted to win not only the title in '72, but many more for years to come. Then, they beat a Knick team with FIVE HOFers.


No, the '67 Celtics were not the most loaded roster in NBA history, you clown. Haha, ten deep? You can't be serious, Jim Barnett, Tom Sanders, KC Jones and Don Nelson...

And other than that they faced a 39 win team which they even lost a game to and then a 44 win team in the finals.... :facepalm

Sure, they had Havlicek, Russell, Jones and Howell but I'd take the '67 Sixers anytime over that Boston team in terms of level of talent. They had freaking 5 guys in the playoffs who averaged more than 15 points while 3 of them averaged more than 20 per game.. Lets not get water over your head, Greer, Cunningham, Walker and Jones really killed it in the playoffs.

And how funny, I've seen you calling Wilt's Philly team the most talented roster of all-time plenty of times, now suddenly you changed your mind because it didn't fit your agenda, you're such a clown.. :facepal,



Compare that with Hakeem winning a ring in the '94 season, which came in a season in which the BEST player in the world did not play. In fact, his 58-24 Rockets beat a Knick team in seven close games....the same Knick team that barely won a seventh game against the Bulls, who were playing without MJ. CLEARLY, had MJ played that season, and Hakeem would only own one ring.


Oh, yeah, lets forget that Hakeem was MVP, DPOY and finals MVP and lets forget that he without any all-stars by his side defeated a Portland team with Drexler and Robinson, then went on beating Phoenix who had KJ and Barkley and then he destroyed Utah who had Karl Malone and Stockton and in the finals he defeated Ewing (top 10 center) who had better players by his side.



And in the '95 Finals, while Shaq was having his way with Hakeem (28 ppg on an unfathomable .595 shooting, as well as outrbounding, outassisting, and outblocking Hakeem), Hakeem's teammates just murdered Shaq's (outshooting them from the field by a huge margin, outshooting them from the arc by a huge margin, and outscoring them by 50 points from the line.)

:facepalm

Haha, why are you always spamming about stats when it fits your agenda, you're such a clown. You spam constantly about how Wilt "killed" Jabbar in the '72 playoffs when Wilt got outscored by 23 points PER GAME on better FG% while Wilt also got outassisted by Kareem and outshot both in terms of FG and FT's.

But suddenly when it's about Hakeem, in a series where everyone gave him the edge, even Shaq himself you use stats to prove that Shaq didn't get outplayed. Haha, you're easy to read and destroy, you hypocrite.

We know you didn't see the series to start with, you even gave game 3 of the '95 finals when everyone who actually saw it knows that Shaq only got his stats after the games was completely dead and that he was terrible in the first half.

And regarding teammates, you are extremely quick to mention that Hakeem's teammates outplayed Shaq's in '95, but why don't you ever mention how Wilt's teammates outplayed Jabbar's in '72 or how his teammates outplayed the competition they faced in both Wilt's title years..

[millwad]

:wtf:

Did you even watch the series?

No, he didn't, he only watches the boxscores.

I wanted to test him and asked him for a breakdown of that series and he made a fool himself.

Game 2 was the obvious one that proved he never saw the game, Hakeem destroyed the Magic in the first half and he put up 22 points 'til the half.

Shaq's scoring came in garbage time, of course Jlauber never saw that game and he only based his judgement on the boxscore and the boxscore doesn't show the fact that Hakeem dominated the first half big-time while giving his Rockets a BIG lead and that Shaq's scoring was too little and too late.

Hey, Jlauber, please tell us about Shaq's first half in game 2 of the '95 finals.. :facepalm

[jlauber]

No, he didn't, he only watches the boxscores.

I wanted to test him and asked him for a breakdown of that series and he made a fool himself.

Game 2 was the obvious one that proved he never saw the game, Hakeem destroyed the Magic in the first half and he put up 22 points 'til the half.

Shaq's scoring came in garbage time, of course Jlauber never saw that game and he only based his judgement on the boxscore and the boxscore doesn't show the fact that Hakeem dominated the first half big-time while giving his Rockets a BIG lead and that Shaq's scoring was too little and too late.

Hey, Jlauber, please tell us about Shaq's first half in game 2 of the '95 finals.. :facepalm

How about a 36 year old Hakeem vs a prime Shaq.? Much more of a rout that a 35 or even 36 year old Chamberlain against a prime Kareem.

As for watching that series, Shaq waily outplayed Hakeem in game one. He dominated him in the second half of game two, and by the end of the game Hakeem was a beaten dog. The ONLY game in which Hakeem outplayed Shaq was game four.

An OLD Chamberlain reduced a PRIME Kareem to just AWFUL FG%'s, (even in his last season he outshot Kareem from the floor by a .737 to .450 margin in six H2H games.

Meanwhile a PRIME Hakeem was torched for not only 28 ppg, but on .595 shooting. Find me ONE playoff series in which Wilt allowed anything close to that. Kareem shot .481 against Wilt in the '71 playoffs, in a season in which he shot .577 overall, and then .457 against him in the '72 playoffs, in a season in which he shot .574...and oh, BTW, he also shot .414 over the course of the last FOUR games of that series. And, Chamberlain reduced Bellamy, who had shot .541 in the '68 regular season, to .421 shooting in the playoffs.

And once again, a prime Shaq just MURDERED a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs.

Of course, you can also take a look at their 28 CAREER H2H's, too. Shaq just POUNDED Hakeem over the course of those games.

BTW, I seriously doubt that YOU have watched that series. You have claimed that Hakeem did NOT guard Kareem in their bulk of their 23 H2H's, which has clearly been PROVEN that he in fact DID. And then you disputed my claim that the 6-5 Barkley outrebounded teammates Hakeem by over FOUR rpg in a season as recently as '97. Which of course, he easily did.

[jlauber]

:wtf:

Did you even watch the series?

Did you????

Hakeem's TEAMMATES just CLOBBERED Shaq's choking crew. They outshot them by huge margins from the floor and the arc, and outscored them by 50 points from the line.

Speaking of FT's and how important they are...

Game one, Hakeem's teammates outscored Shaq's from the line by a 13-7 margin in a two point win.
Game two, Hakeem's teammates had a 28-9 margin in an 11 point win.
Game three, it was 18-13 in a three point win.
Game four, it was 18-8 in a 12 point win.

Hakeem outscored Shaq by four ppg, by taking TEN more FGAs per game. Shaq scored at will against him, but made the mistake of passing the ball to his teammates, who couldn't hit the ocean from a life raft (and he STILL had 6.3 apg in that series.)

Aside from game four, Shaq was the better player in that series. And, that was a YOUNG Shaq, and playing against a PRIME Hakeem. A few years later Shaq just DESTROYED Hakeem.

Of course, just take a look at their career H2H's and get back to me...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=olajuha01&p2=onealsh01

A one-sided beatdown...

[DatAsh]

Did you????



Yes.

Sorry, but I can't take someone seriously that thanks Shaq outplayed Hakeem in that series. Shaq himself even admits that Hakeem spanked him. Face it, you're biased as hell, though I'm not really sure why you have this great vendetta against Hakeem.

[jlauber]

BTW, I have seen clowns claim that Hakeem had a higher scoring average in his post-season career (which doesn't even take into account that Wilt's COACH's changed Wilt's offense several times.)

But Hakeem also took his team's down in flames in EIGHT first round exits.

How about Chamberlain's first round scoring in his first eight post-seasons?

38.7 ppg
37.0 ppg
37.0 ppg
38.6 ppg (on .559 shooting BTW)
27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg on .555 shooting against Russell)
28.0 ppg
28.0 ppg (on .612 shooting BTW)
25.5 ppg

[jlauber]

Yes.

Sorry, but I can't take someone seriously that thanks Shaq outplayed Hakeem in that series. Shaq himself even admits that Hakeem spanked him. Face it, you're biased as hell, though I'm not really sure why you have this great vendetta against Hakeem.

Not a vendetta against Hakeem at all. He is simply the most over-rated player on the forum. His career was basically exemplified by EIGHT FIRST-ROUND exits. And yet some here rank him ahead of Wilt and Russell?

[DatAsh]

Not a vendetta against Hakeem at all. He is simply the most over-rated player on the forum. His career was basically exemplified by EIGHT FIRST-ROUND exits. And yet some here rank him ahead of Wilt and Russell?

I don't rank him above Wilt or Russell, but I can guarantee that you drastically underrate him. He never really had the supporting casts that most(actually all) of the other guys in the top 10 had. You can't really compare his team success to the other all time greats and expect to have a fair comparison. Even Wilt was blessed with much more surrounding talent than Hakeem.

One thing I think that often goes overlooked is the fact that he was basically one of two great centers in NBA history that was capable of guarding both the perimeter and paint and doing it well.

[millwad]

How about a 36 year old Hakeem vs a prime Shaq.? Much more of a rout that a 35 or even 36 year old Chamberlain against a prime Kareem.

Haha, again this nonsense. Have you ever thought about the fact that you never reply to the actual post you're quoting?



As for watching that series, Shaq waily outplayed Hakeem in game one. He dominated him in the second half of game two, and by the end of the game Hakeem was a beaten dog. The ONLY game in which Hakeem outplayed Shaq was game four.

Haha, pure bullshit, you really make a fool of yourself.

Shaq got Hakeem in game one although Hakeem played good and had the game winner.

Shaq didn't dominate Hakeem in the second half of game two, Hakeem played just as good and the game was over when Shaq got his scoring going. Shaq put up his stats in garbage time. And haha, beaten dog? You're so full of nonsense and retarded lines that this ain't even funny no more.

Shaq was totally clueless in the first half and got his ass whooped, Hakeem had 22 first half points while couldn't get his scoring going at all, he just got going when the game was over and in garbage time, "beaten dog", haha.. What a clown.

Game 2 was an easy win for Olajuwon in this series, not even close.

Game 3 was slightly Hakeem outplaying Shaq according to many but I give it a tie.

Game 4 was an easy win for Olajuwon.

So basically we have Hakeem outplaying Shaq in 2 games without any doubt, and yes, game 2 was easily Hakeem outplaying Shaq. And the third game was a tie and Shaq got Hakeem in game one. And Hakeem's team got the sweep and Hakeem showed up at the clutch moment when Shaq didn't always in this series.

Shaq got outplayed, just deal with it, even Shaq himself knows it.



An OLD Chamberlain reduced a PRIME Kareem to just AWFUL FG%'s, (even in his last season he outshot Kareem from the floor by a .737 to .450 margin in six H2H games..

You mean like the old Chamberlain held Kareem to 40 points per game on 50% shooting over a whole season.. :facepalm

Funny how you use stats really, writing that nonsense above makes people think that Kareem was shut down like crazy. Fact still remains that Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting against Wilt in '72, the same season Wilt got his 2nd ring, you troll.



Meanwhile a PRIME Hakeem was torched for not only 28 ppg, but on .595 shooting. Find me ONE playoff series in which Wilt allowed anything close to that. Kareem shot .481 against Wilt in the '71 playoffs, in a season in which he shot .577 overall, and then .457 against him in the '72 playoffs, in a season in which he shot .574...and oh, BTW, he also shot .414 over the course of the last FOUR games of that series. And, Chamberlain reduced Bellamy, who had shot .541 in the '68 regular season, to .421 shooting in the playoffs..

"Torched" while outplaying Shaq.. :facepalm

And again you're obsessive with stats, the only great scoring center Wilt faced was Kareem. And we know that Kareem had plenty of games where he abused Wilt.



And once again, a prime Shaq just MURDERED a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs..


Yeah, you've said that about thousand times, and a 36 year old Olajuwon says itself. Go and put prime Olajuwon vs a 36 year old Shaq and you'lll have the same result.




Of course, you can also take a look at their 28 CAREER H2H's, too. Shaq just POUNDED Hakeem over the course of those games.


While Hakeem got Shaq when he needed to, in the playoffs and in the finals. While Wilt faded away to a fourth option on offense when he won.. :facepalm



BTW, I seriously doubt that YOU have watched that series. You have claimed that Hakeem did NOT guard Kareem in their bulk of their 23 H2H's, which has clearly been PROVEN that he in fact DID. And then you disputed my claim that the 6-5 Barkley outrebounded teammates Hakeem by over FOUR rpg in a season as recently as '97. Which of course, he easily did.


Haha, I did correct you when you claimed something as crappy as Shaq "killing" Olajuwon in that series, I was that person. Of course I've seen the series, I don't stick to boxscores like you.

Haha, oh my god, now you start this crap again. I was wrong about Akeem not guarding Kareem in his rookie and early 2nd year as a pro. It was an assumption I made based on the '86 playoffs and I was clearly wrong but you seem to be completely obsessed with me being wrong in that subject. And it's not like you've seen those games, you got it from an article.

And again this Barkley crap, you know that I misread your essay and I've told you a thousand times but you seem to think that I get offended because I misread you're crappy post regardin that subject.

And regarding credibility, you're the same clown who tried to convince us about how great all the big men Wilt faced were and you copy and pasted a freaking list you found from Yahoo with players Wilt "faced" and that list was so wrong. It mentioned players who didn't even play in the NBA, players who still were in college when Wilt played and ABA players and that is a list you posted with your account as a source.

"Wilt historian"... You're the same guy who changed your mind regarding Wilt and his era 40 years after the actual games over some youtube-clips and quotes and articles. But still you claim you rememeber certain events from 40 year old games.. :facepalm

And by the way, why do you doubt that I've seen the 95 series? I'm the one with the correct summary of that series, not you.

[julizaver]

About Wilt's game 7 from 1962 EDFs and his "22 point game":
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=grBOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KAEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5790,2653804&dq=wilt+chamberlain&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=iQVIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_8MAAAAIBAJ&pg=1437,3973574&dq=wilt+chamberlain&hl=en

Wilt played terrific defence and was praised by B. Cousy. In fact Wilt made the last plays for his team - scoring two FTs and made 3 point play to tie the score.
Bill Russell was also superb - so both played well in that game.

[millwad]

BTW, I have seen clowns claim that Hakeem had a higher scoring average in his post-season career (which doesn't even take into account that Wilt's COACH's changed Wilt's offense several times.)

But Hakeem also took his team's down in flames in EIGHT first round exits.

How about Chamberlain's first round scoring in his first eight post-seasons?

38.7 ppg
37.0 ppg
37.0 ppg
38.6 ppg (on .559 shooting BTW)
27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg on .555 shooting against Russell)
28.0 ppg
28.0 ppg (on .612 shooting BTW)
25.5 ppg

You retard, you can't handpick the series you want to mention. And Wilt's not even close, Hakeem averaged 25.9 points per game in the playoffs compared to Wilt's 22.5 points per game...

AND Hakeem did it on better FG%, you crybaby.

AND Hakeem scored WAY more than Wilt when he actually won, Hakeem averaged 28.9 points per game in '94 playoffs on .519% and in the '95 playoffs he averaged 33 points per game on .53% shooting.

Wilt in '67 was no where close being the team's leading scorer in the playoffs, in fact, he was the tied 2nd option on offense. Wilt averaged 21.7 points per game on 57% shooting.

And in '72 he averaged 14.7 points per game on 56% shooting while being the fourth option on offense.

So Hakeem both scored more per game during his career in the playoffs with better FG% and he also scored WAY more when he actually won his rings. Wilt scored way less when he won, it says alot about how much his scoring really ment..

[Legends66NBA7]

No, the '67 Celtics were not the most loaded roster in NBA history, you clown. Haha, ten deep? You can't be serious, Jim Barnett, Tom Sanders, KC Jones and Don Nelson...

And other than that they faced a 39 win team which they even lost a game to and then a 44 win team in the finals.... :facepalm

Sure, they had Havlicek, Russell, Jones and Howell but I'd take the '67 Sixers anytime over that Boston team in terms of level of talent. They had freaking 5 guys in the playoffs who averaged more than 15 points while 3 of them averaged more than 20 per game.. Lets not get water over your head, Greer, Cunningham, Walker and Jones really killed it in the playoffs.

And how funny, I've seen you calling Wilt's Philly team the most talented roster of all-time plenty of times, now suddenly you changed your mind because it didn't fit your agenda, you're such a clown.. :facepal,



Oh, yeah, lets forget that Hakeem was MVP, DPOY and finals MVP and lets forget that he without any all-stars by his side defeated a Portland team with Drexler and Robinson, then went on beating Phoenix who had KJ and Barkley and then he destroyed Utah who had Karl Malone and Stockton and in the finals he defeated Ewing (top 10 center) who had better players by his side.



Haha, why are you always spamming about stats when it fits your agenda, you're such a clown. You spam constantly about how Wilt "killed" Jabbar in the '72 playoffs when Wilt got outscored by 23 points PER GAME on better FG% while Wilt also got outassisted by Kareem and outshot both in terms of FG and FT's.

But suddenly when it's about Hakeem, in a series where everyone gave him the edge, even Shaq himself you use stats to prove that Shaq didn't get outplayed. Haha, you're easy to read and destroy, you hypocrite.

We know you didn't see the series to start with, you even gave game 3 of the '95 finals when everyone who actually saw it knows that Shaq only got his stats after the games was completely dead and that he was terrible in the first half.

And regarding teammates, you are extremely quick to mention that Hakeem's teammates outplayed Shaq's in '95, but why don't you ever mention how Wilt's teammates outplayed Jabbar's in '72 or how his teammates outplayed the competition they faced in both Wilt's title years..


No, he didn't, he only watches the boxscores.

I wanted to test him and asked him for a breakdown of that series and he made a fool himself.

Game 2 was the obvious one that proved he never saw the game, Hakeem destroyed the Magic in the first half and he put up 22 points 'til the half.

Shaq's scoring came in garbage time, of course Jlauber never saw that game and he only based his judgement on the boxscore and the boxscore doesn't show the fact that Hakeem dominated the first half big-time while giving his Rockets a BIG lead and that Shaq's scoring was too little and too late.

Hey, Jlauber, please tell us about Shaq's first half in game 2 of the '95 finals.. :facepalm


Haha, again this nonsense. Have you ever thought about the fact that you never reply to the actual post you're quoting?



Haha, pure bullshit, you really make a fool of yourself.

Shaq got Hakeem in game one although Hakeem played good and had the game winner.

Shaq didn't dominate Hakeem in the second half of game two, Hakeem played just as good and the game was over when Shaq got his scoring going. Shaq put up his stats in garbage time. And haha, beaten dog? You're so full of nonsense and retarded lines that this ain't even funny no more.

Shaq was totally clueless in the first half and got his ass whooped, Hakeem had 22 first half points while couldn't get his scoring going at all, he just got going when the game was over and in garbage time, "beaten dog", haha.. What a clown.

Game 2 was an easy win for Olajuwon in this series, not even close.

Game 3 was slightly Hakeem outplaying Shaq according to many but I give it a tie.

Game 4 was an easy win for Olajuwon.

So basically we have Hakeem outplaying Shaq in 2 games without any doubt, and yes, game 2 was easily Hakeem outplaying Shaq. And the third game was a tie and Shaq got Hakeem in game one. And Hakeem's team got the sweep and Hakeem showed up at the clutch moment when Shaq didn't always in this series.

Shaq got outplayed, just deal with it, even Shaq himself knows it.



You mean like the old Chamberlain held Kareem to 40 points per game on 50% shooting over a whole season.. :facepalm

Funny how you use stats really, writing that nonsense above makes people think that Kareem was shut down like crazy. Fact still remains that Kareem averaged 40 points per game on 50% shooting against Wilt in '72, the same season Wilt got his 2nd ring, you troll.



"Torched" while outplaying Shaq.. :facepalm

And again you're obsessive with stats, the only great scoring center Wilt faced was Kareem. And we know that Kareem had plenty of games where he abused Wilt.



Yeah, you've said that about thousand times, and a 36 year old Olajuwon says itself. Go and put prime Olajuwon vs a 36 year old Shaq and you'lll have the same result.



While Hakeem got Shaq when he needed to, in the playoffs and in the finals. While Wilt faded away to a fourth option on offense when he won.. :facepalm




Haha, I did correct you when you claimed something as crappy as Shaq "killing" Olajuwon in that series, I was that person. Of course I've seen the series, I don't stick to boxscores like you.

Haha, oh my god, now you start this crap again. I was wrong about Akeem not guarding Kareem in his rookie and early 2nd year as a pro. It was an assumption I made based on the '86 playoffs and I was clearly wrong but you seem to be completely obsessed with me being wrong in that subject. And it's not like you've seen those games, you got it from an article.

And again this Barkley crap, you know that I misread your essay and I've told you a thousand times but you seem to think that I get offended because I misread you're crappy post regardin that subject.

And regarding credibility, you're the same clown who tried to convince us about how great all the big men Wilt faced were and you copy and pasted a freaking list you found from Yahoo with players Wilt "faced" and that list was so wrong. It mentioned players who didn't even play in the NBA, players who still were in college when Wilt played and ABA players and that is a list you posted with your account as a source.

"Wilt historian"... You're the same guy who changed your mind regarding Wilt and his era 40 years after the actual games over some youtube-clips and quotes and articles. But still you claim you rememeber certain events from 40 year old games.. :facepalm

And by the way, why do you doubt that I've seen the 95 series? I'm the one with the correct summary of that series, not you.


You retard, you can't handpick the series you want to mention. And Wilt's not even close, Hakeem averaged 25.9 points per game in the playoffs compared to Wilt's 22.5 points per game...

AND Hakeem did it on better FG%, you crybaby.

AND Hakeem scored WAY more than Wilt when he actually won, Hakeem averaged 28.9 points per game in '94 playoffs on .519% and in the '95 playoffs he averaged 33 points per game on .53% shooting.

Wilt in '67 was no where close being the team's leading scorer in the playoffs, in fact, he was the tied 2nd option on offense. Wilt averaged 21.7 points per game on 57% shooting.

And in '72 he averaged 14.7 points per game on 56% shooting while being the fourth option on offense.

So Hakeem both scored more per game during his career in the playoffs with better FG% and he also scored WAY more when he actually won his rings. Wilt scored way less when he won, it says alot about how much his scoring really ment..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkdlhQavs0

Yeah, just kidding. I just wanted to use that clip on you. :lol

:D

[millwad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONkdlhQavs0

Yeah, just kidding. I just wanted to use that clip on you. :lol

:D

HAHAHA!

My comeback, props to CavaliersFTW for the hilarious video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHJuifYlbY

[jlauber]

You retard, you can't handpick the series you want to mention. And Wilt's not even close, Hakeem averaged 25.9 points per game in the playoffs compared to Wilt's 22.5 points per game...

AND Hakeem did it on better FG%, you crybaby.

AND Hakeem scored WAY more than Wilt when he actually won, Hakeem averaged 28.9 points per game in '94 playoffs on .519% and in the '95 playoffs he averaged 33 points per game on .53% shooting.

Wilt in '67 was no where close being the team's leading scorer in the playoffs, in fact, he was the tied 2nd option on offense. Wilt averaged 21.7 points per game on 57% shooting.

And in '72 he averaged 14.7 points per game on 56% shooting while being the fourth option on offense.

So Hakeem both scored more per game during his career in the playoffs with better FG% and he also scored WAY more when he actually won his rings. Wilt scored way less when he won, it says alot about how much his scoring really ment..

Hakeem could NEVER come CLOSE to the post-season scoring OR EFFICIENCY that a PRIME Wilt put up. Wilt had FOUR ENTIRE post-seasons of 30+ ppg (Chamberlain had post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg.) How about post-season series? Wilt had series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg (and he had post-season series against Russell of 30.1 ppg, 30.5 ppg, and 33.6 ppg.) And he had "must-win" games of 56, 53, 50 (against RUSSELL), 46, and 45, which came in a season only four months removed from major knee surgery. In fact, Chamberlain had FOUR 50+ point games in his post-season career. How many did your boy Hakeem have?

Oh, and ONE MORE TIME, had Wilt not carried his team's past the first round in his first eight post-seasons, and he would have averaged 33 ppg in that span. Of course, he did, and had to battle Russell in EIGHT of them. Oh, and his teammates were so pathetic, that his team missed the playoffs in his 63 season, in which he averaged 44.8 ppg on .528 shooting. You could safely add another 35+ ppg playoff series had he been able to play in it.

Furthermore, had he not ran into the Celtic Dynasty, or had had teammates that could have scored a handful more points, and he would have run into the Lakers in the Finals in several of them. He averaged 52 ppg against LA in eight regular season meetings in '62, which included THREE games of 60+ (and a HIGH game of 78.) Hell, how about Russell in the '65 Finals? He averaged 18 ppg, 27 rpg, and shot .702. In the previous series against Wilt? 15.6 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .447 shooting. And in that same series, Chamberlain hung a 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 series on Russell. Just what kind of mind0numbing numbers would Chamberlain have hung on the Laker frontline in a '65 Finals?

Hakeem shooting .528 in his post-season career to Wilt's .522? :roll: :roll: :roll:

Hakeem played in leagues that shot as high as .491. And, on AVERAGE, they shot about .470. Chamberlain played in league's that shot between .410 and .456.

Oh, and Wilt did so against 105 starting HOF centers (compared to Hakeem's 35.) And even that his deceptive. Wilt faced a PRIME Kareem in 11 playoff games, while Hakeem (with Sampson actually defending him in the '86 WCF's) faced a 39 year Kareem in six.

How about Russell, widely regarded as the greatest defensive center in NBA history, and his swarming Celtics in 49 games? Thurmond, who was a FAR better defender on Kareem that Hakeem could have ever "dreamt" about, battled Wilt in 17 games. Reed in 18. Bellamy in 11. And a PRIME Kareem in 11.

How about a PRIME Kareem's FG% against an OLD Wilt in Chamberlain's LAST TEN straight games? .434. How about a 38-39 year old Kareem, who couldn't even grab an uncontested rebound at that age, AVERAGING 32 ppg on, get this... .633 shooting in his FIRST TEN STRAIGHT GAMES against a 23 year old Hakeem?

Or, Kareem in his 28 H2H games with Chamberlain, shooting .464. (BTW, in their one meeting before Chamberlain shredded his knee, Wilt outscored, outrebounded, outassisted, outblocked, and outshot Kareem (and by a .643 to .429 margin.)

How about the CAREER Hakeem-Kareem 23 H2H's (in which Kareem ranged from 38-42?) Kareem outscored and outshot the 23-26 year old Hakeem by a .610 to .512 margin.

A PRIME Kareem had TEN games, in his 28 H2H's with Wilt, in which he shot over .500. He had TWENTY games, in his 23 H2H's with Hakeem, in which he shot over .500. Kareem had ONE game of over .600 shooting against Wilt, and SEVEN against Hakeem. Wilt held Kareem to under .399 shooting in SEVEN games (Hakeem, one.)

Hell, and OLD Kareem, at age 38-39 dumped THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem, and all on staggering efficiencies (one game of 46 points, on 21-30 shooting, and in only 37 minutes. In fact, the recap mentioned that Kareem probably would have scored his all-time career high had he played longer.)

Of course, what we don't have in all of the above? We don't have a 23-26 year old Wilt facing Kareem. Or even a 23-32 year old Wilt. The only semi-prime game we have of Wilt, Chamberlain just abused Kareem in EVERY facet of the game.

And how about OVERALL post-season play? Where were Hakeem's 30-27 GAMES? Chamberlain AVERAGED that in his first 67 post-season games...COMBINED (and 35 of those came against RUSSELL.)

How about shooting in the Finals? Hakeem, in his three Finals, shot .500, .488, and .483 (and was outshot by Shaq, who shot .595.) Wilt, in his SIX Finals, had series of .517 (and 29.2 ppg, 27.6 rpg, and holding Russell to a 11-25 .386 series), .525, .534, .560 (against Thurmond...while holding Nate to .343 shooting), .600 (along with 19 ppg and 23 rpg, and in winning the FMVP), and a staggering seven game Finals of .625 (to go along with 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.) So Wilt, in NBA post-seasons that shot FAR worse, shot better in his WORST Finals, than Hakeem did in his best.

And once again, compare post-season league FG%'s in those Finals.

Hakeem shot .488 in the '86 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .489.
Hakeem shot .500 in the '94 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .439.
Hakeem shot .483 in the '95 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .460.

How about Wilt?

Wilt shot .517 in the '64 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .420.
Wilt shot .560 in the '67 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .424.
Wilt shot .534 in the '69 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .431.
Wilt shot .625 in the '70 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .455.
Wilt shot .600 in the '72 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .446.
Wilt shot .525 in the '73 Finals, and in a post-season NBA that shot .451.

How about post-season rebounding?

Wilt played in 29 post-season series...and was NEVER outrebounded in ONE. He had post-season series in which he just annihilated his opposing centers, too, including HOFers. He outrebounded Thurmond in all three H2H series, and by margins of up to 23.5 to 19.5 rpg, and 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg (in his LAST post-season BTW.) How about against Russell? He outrebounded Russell in ALL eight of their post-season H2H's...including margins of 30.2 rpg to 26.2 rpg, 31.4 rpg to 25.2 rpg, and even a 32.0 rpg to 23.4 rpg margin.

Wilt's LOWEST post-season was 20.2 rpg. He had EIGHT of 24.7+, including two of 29.1 rpg and one of 30.2 rpg. Once again, in his LAST post-season, at age 36, and in 17 post-season games, he averaged 22.5 rpg (in a post-season NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg.)

Hakeem was outrebounded in several (Shaq pounded him in BOTH of their of post-season H2H's.) Ewing outrebounded him by THREE per game in the '94 Finals...which was bad enough, but Hakeem's TEAMMATE, Otis Thorpe was Houston's leading rebounder. Barkley outrebounded Hakeem in the '97 playoffs.

And let's get to the REAL facts here.

Hakeem won ONE MVP, in a league in which the real best player did not play that season. He came in second, ONE other time. He finished in the top-4 FOUR times. My god, he didn't even finish in the top-10 in EIGHT of his 18 seasons.

Chamberlain won FOUR MVPs, and SHOULD have won them in '62, 64, and '72 (and clearly should have finished somewhere near the top in '69.) Even at age 36, and in his LAST season, he came in 4th.

Hakeem consistently led his teams to 45 wins per season in his career. He only played on five teams that even won 50+ games, with a high of 58. Chamberlain anchored FOUR teams that won 60+ games, including two that went 68-13 and 69-13. And for all the credit that Hakeem gets for leading his '95 Rockets to a title, how about Wilt in the '65 post-season. He led a 40-40 team thru a loaded 48-32 Royals team. Then, he took that team (which had gone 34-46 the year before), to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 Celtic at the peak of their dynasty. And all he did in that series was average 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shoot .555 from the field.

And his 49-31 '62 team was the same basic core of the LAST PLACE team that he inherited in his rookies season. Not only that, but that cast of clowns collectively shot .354 in that post-season, too. And yet Wilt single-handedly carried them thru the first round, and then to a game seven, two point loss against Russell's 60-20 Celtics, and their SEVEN HOFers.

Oh, and while Wilt failed to make it past the first round in ONE of his 13 post-seasons, Hakeem led his team's out of the first round in EIGHT of his 15.

How about comparing the RECORD BOOK? I doubt Hakeem holds more than a dozen NBA records. Chamberlain holds close to 100!

Scoring, shooting, rebounding, passing, defense...Wilt has a HUGE edge in ALL of those categories.

Sorry, but Hakeem's career resume PALES in comparison to Wilt's.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

HAHAHA!

My comeback, props to CavaliersFTW for the hilarious video;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHJuifYlbY

:roll: :oldlol:

These videos are gold!!!

[Horatio33]

No way you were old enough to watched Wilt. You just post endless sttats with no context. Never hear you say "Wilt scored the final 9 points of the game to help his team win" like you hear from other greats. You just post "Player A had better stats than Player B, therefore Player A was better in the game."

You know if someone scores 22 points and only score 4 in the fourth quarter and his team loses by 2 that is bad. It's empty stats. Whereas if a player has 16 points but scores 9 in the fourth quarter and his team wins by 1, that shows he helped the team in a close game.

Wilt can score 40 in a playoff game, but if he misses 10 free throws and his team loses by 2, that is WILT'S fault for not coming through in the clutch. Deuce is correct to bring up free throw shooting. Wilt's teams lost all the deciding game to the Celtics by 9 points. 9 points for what, 5 or 6 games? And Wilt missed over twenty free throws. I'm sure you can do the maths here.

The Shaq v Hakeem argument: Shaq scored 75% of his points in the first half, and Hakeem scored most of his points in the second half to key his team to victory. Shaq had more points, but in the context of the game, Hakeem was the difference.

[jlauber]

No way you were old enough to watched Wilt. You just post endless sttats with no context. Never hear you say "Wilt scored the final 9 points of the game to help his team win" like you hear from other greats. You just post "Player A had better stats than Player B, therefore Player A was better in the game."

You know if someone scores 22 points and only score 4 in the fourth quarter and his team loses by 2 that is bad. It's empty stats. Whereas if a player has 16 points but scores 9 in the fourth quarter and his team wins by 1, that shows he helped the team in a close game.

Wilt can score 40 in a playoff game, but if he misses 10 free throws and his team loses by 2, that is WILT'S fault for not coming through in the clutch. Deuce is correct to bring up free throw shooting. Wilt's teams lost all the deciding game to the Celtics by 9 points. 9 points for what, 5 or 6 games? And Wilt missed over twenty free throws. I'm sure you can do the maths here.

The Shaq v Hakeem argument: Shaq scored 75% of his points in the first half, and Hakeem scored most of his points in the second half to key his team to victory. Shaq had more points, but in the context of the game, Hakeem was the difference.

Chamberlain was CLUTCH down the STRETCH in game seven of the '62 ECF's; game seven of the '65 ECF's; the clinching game six of the '67 Finals; and dominated Kareem down the stretch in the clinching game six win in the '72 WCF's.

Furthermore, you will be hard-pressed to find games where his opposing center did anything down the stretch in big games against him. Russell did hit a game-winner against him in game four of the '64 Finals...BUT, Chamberlain had to jump out on a wide open Heinsohn, who threw up a clanker than Russell stuffed in.

But go ahead, give me YOUR research and find me the "choking" Chamberlain in big moments of big games. And be careful with your FT's too. Wilt had SEVERAL games in his post-season career where he hit BIG FTs down the stretch (in '62 he not only went 2-2 late, he went 8-9 for the game...and in '65 he hit 2-2 with 36 secs left, and then dunked on a helpless Russell with 5 secs left.)

But, even aside from making clutch OFFENSIVE plays, Chamberlain was making clutch DEFENSIVE plays down the stretches, as well. Just ask Kareem, whom he held to 2-8 shooting in the 4th quarter of the clinching game six of the '72 WCF's. Or Rick Barry whom he jumped out on and forced a horrible shot near the end of the clinching game six in the '67 Finals. And Julizaver already posted Wilt's clutch DEFENSE in game seven of the '62 ECF's.

[jlauber]

And one more time for those that may have missed it...


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Regarding Wilt's FT shooting in his Finals, how about Shaq in his?

'95 24-42 .571
'00 36-93 .387
'01 39-76 .513
'02 45-68 .661
'04 27-55 .491
'06 14-48 .292

And, Shaq somehow won rings in '00, '01, and '06 with that shooting.

And how about Russell?

He won FIVE rings with this overall post-season shooting...

'57 .365 from the field, .508 from the line.
'61 .427 from the field, .523 from the line
'64 .356 from the field, .552 from the line
'68 .409 from the field, .585 from the line
'69 .423 from the field, .506 from the line
Half of those are over .500. And he made them when it counted.

'00 WCF, Game 7: 8-12
'02 WCF, Game 7: 11-15, 5-6 in the 4th quarter & OT

[jlauber]

Half of those are over .500. And he made them when it counted.

'00 WCF, Game 7: 8-12
'02 WCF, Game 7: 11-15, 5-6 in the 4th quarter & OT

Yep...you got me there...

Clearly blows away my arguments...

[jlauber]

BTW Dunce...

No mention of RUSSELL having anything to do with Wilt's "choking?"

So, it's a "choke" job when Wilt doesn't win a ring in the era of Russell and his Dynasty? My god, West, Baylor, Oscar, all HUGE "chokers."

And given the fact that Wilt was more of a "winner" in his four year's in the league with Kareem...how far down does that massive choker fall?

Bird, with HOF-laden casts only winning three rings in his 13 seasons? And don't bring up Magic or the Lakers, either, since it was obvious that they had nothing to do with denying him rings, and that he simply choked.

And MJ? Well, he couldn't even win a game against Bird in the post-season. And we already know that Bird was one of the great "choke artists" because of the reasoning just above. So, where does MJ rank, then?

Shaq? Swept SIX times, and blown away by Ostertag in another.

And you're boy Kobe. He was blown out in the clinching game six of the '03 WCF's, the clinching game five of the '04 Finals, and the clinching game six of the '08 Finals (by 40 points no less.) There has probably never anyone else who was ever on the receiving end of more clinching series blowout losses than Kobe.

[millwad]

Wow, just wow, you're not even replying any posts with actual relevant stuff, you only rant about those cherry picked stats and events.

I mean, all you ever do is picking certain events you've googled and then you write it in crazy biased manners. You just point out the stuff you want to point out, stuff that fits your agenda.

You can't even explain those events other than stats because you didn't even see those games. You were a kid when Chamberlain played, they didn't even show most of the games you write about and we know that you changed your mind regarding Chamberlain and his era over youtube and quotes and articles.

This is completely pointless, everyone of us are basically discussing basketball with google, you just google certain events and then you write it over with own biased words. You don't actually know anything about the stuff you're spamming about, just look at your sources, you even use youtubecomments (CavaliersFTW's mistyped comment you took as a source), yahoo-comments etc..

Empty stats and copy and paste job from google.. :facepalm

You use anything any source you find as long as it fits your new agenda, one you got after watching Chamberlain on youtube.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep...you got me there...

Clearly blows away my arguments...
Yep.

Shaq in the Playoffs
1168-2317, 50.4%

Shaq in the Finals
195-382, 51.0%

Shaq in Game 7s
'95 ECF, Game 7: 3-11 ...(24 point win))
'00 WCF, Game 7: 8-12
'02 WCF, Game 7: 11-15
'05 ECF, Game 7: 3-6

Total: 25-44, 56.8%

Wilt in Game 7s
'70 Finals, Game 7: 1-11
'69 Finals, Game 7: 4-13 ...(2 point loss)
'68 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-15 ...(4 point loss)
'65 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-13 ...(1 point loss)
'64 Div Semifinals, Game 7: 1-6
'62 Divisional Finals, Game 7: 8-9

Total: 26-67, 38.8%

Wilt in the Playoffs
757-1627, 46.5%

Wilt in the Finals
124-326, 38.0%

[millwad]

BTW Dunce...

No mention of RUSSELL having anything to do with Wilt's "choking?"

So, it's a "choke" job when Wilt doesn't win a ring in the era of Russell and his Dynasty? My god, West, Baylor, Oscar, all HUGE "chokers."

And given the fact that Wilt was more of a "winner" in his four year's in the league with Kareem...how far down does that massive choker fall?

Bird, with HOF-laden casts only winning three rings in his 13 seasons? And don't bring up Magic or the Lakers, either, since it was obvious that they had nothing to do with denying him rings, and that he simply choked.

And MJ? Well, he couldn't even win a game against Bird in the post-season. And we already know that Bird was one of the great "choke artists" because of the reasoning just above. So, where does MJ rank, then?

Shaq? Swept SIX times, and blown away by Ostertag in another.

And you're boy Kobe. He was blown out in the clinching game six of the '03 WCF's, the clinching game five of the '04 Finals, and the clinching game six of the '08 Finals (by 40 points no less.) There has probably never anyone else who was ever on the receiving end of more clinching series blowout losses than Kobe.

I mean, how can anyone take this biased garbage seriously?

You're just a 57 year old, lonely guy who got a new manlove for a long dead Chamberlain. I mean, do you even have any friends, Jlauber, and what does your family think about your obsession with a dead basketball player?

This is not normal, I'm honestly starting to believe that you have Asperger disease or some other mental issues.. You don't seem to understand how to interact with people, this is something that's obvious through the net, people who must know you in real life must notice how odd you are as well.

How much do you love Wilt Chamberlain really? You're a 57 year old man for god sake, how important is a dead basketball player for you really? Your life must be so empty and meaningsless, no one normal would put in so much time for a certain basketball player if he wouldn't be obsessed. People on this site have an interest for basketball, you're just obsessed with a certain player, it's not normal.. :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW Dunce...

No mention of RUSSELL having anything to do with Wilt's "choking?"

So, it's a "choke" job when Wilt doesn't win a ring in the era of Russell and his Dynasty? My god, West, Baylor, Oscar, all HUGE "chokers."

And given the fact that Wilt was more of a "winner" in his four year's in the league with Kareem...how far down does that massive choker fall?

Bird, with HOF-laden casts only winning three rings in his 13 seasons? And don't bring up Magic or the Lakers, either, since it was obvious that they had nothing to do with denying him rings, and that he simply choked.

And MJ? Well, he couldn't even win a game against Bird in the post-season. And we already know that Bird was one of the great "choke artists" because of the reasoning just above. So, where does MJ rank, then?

Shaq? Swept SIX times, and blown away by Ostertag in another.

And you're boy Kobe. He was blown out in the clinching game six of the '03 WCF's, the clinching game five of the '04 Finals, and the clinching game six of the '08 Finals (by 40 points no less.) There has probably never anyone else who was ever on the receiving end of more clinching series blowout losses than Kobe.
Russell - 11 rings

Kareem - 6 rings

Bird - 3 rings

MJ - 6 rings

Shaq - 4 rings, higher FT% in Game 7s, Finals, and Playoffs

Kobe - 5 rings

Every great has come up short one time or another, but the ones listed above won more rings and came up short less times then your boy Wilt. If you're going to call these guys, who have more rings chokers, then what does that make Wilt? the ultimate choker?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Russell - 11 rings

Kareem - 6 rings

Bird - 3 rings

MJ - 6 rings

Shaq - 4 rings, higher FT% in Game 7s, Finals, and Playoffs

Kobe - 5 rings

Every great has come up short one time or another, but the ones listed above won more rings and came up short less times then your boy Wilt. If you're going to call these guys, who have more rings chokers, then what does that make Wilt? the ultimate choker?

Wait, Jlauber called Jordan a choker? :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wait, Jlauber called Jordan a choker? :lol

And MJ? Well, he couldn't even win a game against Bird in the post-season. And we already know that Bird was one of the great "choke artists" because of the reasoning just above. So, where does MJ rank, then?
I don't know

[millwad]

Wait, Jlauber called Jordan a choker? :lol

According to Jlauber every player who played after Wilt are chokers..

[dunksby]

BTW Dunce...

No mention of RUSSELL having anything to do with Wilt's "choking?"

So, it's a "choke" job when Wilt doesn't win a ring in the era of Russell and his Dynasty? My god, West, Baylor, Oscar, all HUGE "chokers."

And given the fact that Wilt was more of a "winner" in his four year's in the league with Kareem...how far down does that massive choker fall?

Bird, with HOF-laden casts only winning three rings in his 13 seasons? And don't bring up Magic or the Lakers, either, since it was obvious that they had nothing to do with denying him rings, and that he simply choked.

And MJ? Well, he couldn't even win a game against Bird in the post-season. And we already know that Bird was one of the great "choke artists" because of the reasoning just above. So, where does MJ rank, then?

Shaq? Swept SIX times, and blown away by Ostertag in another.

And you're boy Kobe. He was blown out in the clinching game six of the '03 WCF's, the clinching game five of the '04 Finals, and the clinching game six of the '08 Finals (by 40 points no less.) There has probably never anyone else who was ever on the receiving end of more clinching series blowout losses than Kobe.
jlauber meltdown :lol

[Punpun]

Keep making excuses Jlauber. Won't mean Wilt wasn't a choker. Try to be pertinent next time. Those little answers shouldn't cut it anywhere where users actually give a shit about what people write.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This thread has shook jlauber

[Asukal]

LOL @ his answers..... insecure so much. :roll: :roll: :roll:

[jlauber]

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.



Yep. One poor game by Wilt's standards was the reason his TEAM lost a game seven, by one point. Oh, and he shot 6-13 from the line in game seven, but let's ignore his 12-15 from the field.

A little background. Wilt was traded at mid-season (the Warriors feared he had a heart condition and panicked) to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before. Chamberlain's impact was immediate, but then injuries slowed him for a period. Philly would finish 40-40 and slide into the playoffs.

Incidently, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the season. How much effect did that have on Wilt? In his 63-64 season, Chamberlain averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting. At the mid-way point in the 64-65 season, an ill Wilt was averaging 38.9 ppg on .499 shooting. With his new team, and a better supporting cast, he "only" averaged 30.1 ppg on .528 shooting (remember those numbers), and overall, he finished the season at 34.7 ppg on .510 shooting.

Wilt carried his 40-40 Sixers past the 48-32 Royals in a first round, 3-1, romp.

That set up the ECF's, in which Chamberlain's massive underdog Sixers would face a Celtic team at it's PEAK. Boston had rolled to a 62-18 record, which was their best season in the "Dynasty" run. Their 62-18 mark was miles ahead of the next best record in the league (Los Angeles, at 49-31.)

Shockingly, the series went to a seventh game, and in Boston. The Celtics appeared to have the game won, leading 110-101 with a little over two minutes remaining. Chamberlain then scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with five secs left to pull within 110-109.

The "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, and a stunned Boston crowd was on the verge of perhaps witnessing the biggest upset in playoff history.

However, as happened so often in the Russell-Wilt battles, another Boston player stepped up, and saved the Celtics. "Havlicek stole the ball."

To his credit, Russell played well in that seventh game. He scored 15 points, on 7-16 from the field, and 1-2 from the line. He also grabbed 29 rebounds, handed out 8 assists, and had six blocks.

But to claim that Wilt "choked" in that game is akin to claiming that MJ choked in his 63 point OT playoff game loss. Wilt scored 30 points (and once again, six of them in the last two minutes), on 12-15 shooting (yes, .800 shooting from the field), and 6-13 from the line (here again, 2-2 late, though.) He also added 32 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 1 assist.

So, the "Wilt-bashers" will claim that Russell's 1-2 from the line WON the game, and Wilt's 6-13 from the line, LOST the game. More on that in a moment.

Thanks to Julizaver, we have the Russell-Wilt H2H's in that seven game series:




Game 1 - 04.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 48 min 33 points (13-22 FG and 7/12 FT) 31 rebs, 3 assists
Russell 48 min 11 points (5-13 FG and 1/5 FT) 32 rebounds, 6 assists

Game 2 - 06.04.1965 - Phila win

Chamberlain 48 min 30 points (12-19 FG and 6/9 FT) 39 rebs, 8 assists, 8 blocks
Russell 48 min 12 points (5-12 FG and 2/3 FT) 16 rebounds, 5 assists, 5 blocks

Game 3 - 08.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 48 min 24 points (7-21 FG and 10/15 FT) 37 rebs, 1 assist, 1 steal
Russell 48 min 19 points (9-17 FG and 1/4 FT) 26 rebounds, 8 assists, 3 steals

Game 4 - 09.04.1965 - Phila win

Chamberlain 53 min 34 points (11-24 FG and 12/20 FT) 34 rebs, 3 assists
Russell 52 min 18 points (8-19 FG and 2/7 FT) 25 rebounds

Game 5 - 11.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 30 points (13-23 FG and 4/8 FT) 21 rebs, 2 assists, 2 blocks
Russell 12 points (4-7 FG and 4/5 FT) 28 rebounds, 7 assists, 12 blocks, 3 steals

Game 6 - 13.04.1965 - Phila win

Chamberlain 48 min 30 points (13-22 FG and 4/8 FT) 26 rebs, 4 assists, 6 blocks *at least
Russell 22 points (8-19 FG and 6/10 FT) 21 rebounds, 5 assists

Game 7 - 15.04.1965 - Boston win

Chamberlain 48 min 30 points (12-15 FG and 6/13 FT) 32 rebs, 2 assists, 1 block
Russell 15 points (7-16 FG and 1/2 FT) 29 rebounds, 8 assists, 6 blocks


The series averages:

W. Chamberlain - 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, 3.3 apg 55.48 FG % and 58.33 FT%
B. Russell - 15.6 ppg, 25.3 rpg, 6.5* apg 44.67 FG % and 47.22 FT %

* no data available for Game 4, so averages for 6 games



As you can see, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in nearly every facet of the game. But a couple of other interesting facts, too. Once again, after the Sixers acquired Wilt, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, .528 from the field, and .526 from the line.

Now, look at his numbers in the ECF's: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 from the field, and even .583 from the line. Where was the Wilt who supposedly SHRANK in the post-season?

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's .583 FT% easily topped Russell's .472 (and, obviously, he just crushed Russell from the field, .555 to .447.) Incidently, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain OUTSCORED Russell from the line in that series, 49-17.

One other point, in reference to Sam Jones (who indeed killed Wilt's title hopes in several post-seasons), Wilt was the HIGH scorer in that series. Just as he was in their '60, '62, '64, '66, and '67 H2H's (if you can possibly compare Wilt and Jones as a "H2H.")

Just another example of Wilt "the choker." ONLY Chamberlain could be considered a "choker" when taking a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 team, and in the process outscoring his opposing center by a 30-16 ppg margin; outrebounding his opposing center, 31-25 rpg; outshooting his opposing center from the field, .555 to .447; and even outshooting his opposing center from the line, .583 to .472.

Next up...Chamberlain's IMPACT from the FT line...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yep. One poor game by Wilt's standards was the reason his TEAM lost a game seven, by one point. Oh, and he shot 6-13 from the line in game seven, but let's ignore his 12-15 from the field.

A little background. Wilt was traded at mid-season (the Warriors feared he had a heart condition and panicked) to a Sixer team that had gone 34-46 the year before. Chamberlain's impact was immediate, but then injuries slowed him for a period. Philly would finish 40-40 and slide into the playoffs.

Incidently, the NBA widened the lane before the start of the season. How much effect did that have on Wilt? In his 63-64 season, Chamberlain averaged 36.9 ppg on .524 shooting. At the mid-way point in the 64-65 season, an ill Wilt was averaging 38.9 ppg on .499 shooting. With his new team, and a better supporting cast, he "only" averaged 30.1 ppg on .528 shooting (remember those numbers), and overall, he finished the season at 34.7 ppg on .510 shooting.

Wilt carried his 40-40 Sixers past the 48-32 Royals in a first round, 3-1, romp.

That set up the ECF's, in which Chamberlain's massive underdog Sixers would face a Celtic team at it's PEAK. Boston had rolled to a 62-18 record, which was their best season in the "Dynasty" run. Their 62-18 mark was miles ahead of the next best record in the league (Los Angeles, at 49-31.)

Shockingly, the series went to a seventh game, and in Boston. The Celtics appeared to have the game won, leading 110-101 with a little over two minutes remaining. Chamberlain then scored six of Philly's last eight points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with five secs left to pull within 110-109.

The "clutch" Russell then hit a guidewire with his inbounds pass, and a stunned Boston crowd was on the verge of perhaps witnessing the biggest upset in playoff history.

However, as happened so often in the Russell-Wilt battles, another Boston player stepped up, and saved the Celtics. "Havlicek stole the ball."

To his credit, Russell played well in that seventh game. He scored 15 points, on 7-16 from the field, and 1-2 from the line. He also grabbed 29 rebounds, handed out 8 assists, and had six blocks.

But to claim that Wilt "choked" in that game is akin to claiming that MJ choked in his 63 point OT playoff game loss. Wilt scored 30 points (and once again, six of them in the last two minutes), on 12-15 shooting (yes, .800 shooting from the field), and 6-13 from the line (here again, 2-2 late, though.) He also added 32 rebounds, 2 blocks, and 1 assist.

So, the "Wilt-bashers" will claim that Russell's 1-2 from the line WON the game, and Wilt's 6-13 from the line, LOST the game. More on that in a moment.

Thanks to Julizaver, we have the Russell-Wilt H2H's in that seven game series:



As you can see, Chamberlain outplayed Russell in nearly every facet of the game. But a couple of other interesting facts, too. Once again, after the Sixers acquired Wilt, he averaged 30.1 ppg, 22.3 rpg, .528 from the field, and .526 from the line.

Now, look at his numbers in the ECF's: 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, .555 from the field, and even .583 from the line. Where was the Wilt who supposedly SHRANK in the post-season?

Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's .583 FT% easily topped Russell's .472 (and, obviously, he just crushed Russell from the field, .555 to .447.) Incidently, and as ALWAYS, Chamberlain OUTSCORED Russell from the line in that series, 49-17.

One other point, in reference to Sam Jones (who indeed killed Wilt's title hopes in several post-seasons), Wilt was the HIGH scorer in that series. Just as he was in their '60, '62, '64, '66, and '67 H2H's (if you can possibly compare Wilt and Jones as a "H2H.")

Just another example of Wilt "the choker." ONLY Chamberlain could be considered a "choker" when taking a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against a 62-18 team, and in the process outscoring his opposing center by a 30-16 ppg margin; outrebounding his opposing center, 31-25 rpg; outshooting his opposing center from the field, .555 to .447; and even outshooting his opposing center from the line, .583 to .472.

Next up...Chamberlain's IMPACT from the FT line...
Ok you are going to use his 12-15 FG to offset his 6-13 FT in Game 7, but what about Game 3?
7-21 FG%, 33.3% for a big man that plays in the paint and is bigger than every player on the court.

[jlauber]

Ok you are going to use his 12-15 FG to offset his 6-13 FT in Game 7, but what about Game 3?
7-21 FG%, 33.3% for a big man that plays in the paint and is bigger than every player on the court.

This is all you can come up with? Are you joking?

So, Chamberlain outplays Russell in at least five of the seven games (and I am being generous giving Russell a tie with Chamberlain in game five), and in a couple he wipes the floor with Russell, but you are going to blame a game seven, one point series loss, on a game three in which Chamberlain scored 24 points on 21 shots, and Russell scored 19 on his 17?

BTW, I seem to recall you defending Kobe's game seven in the 2010 Finals, when he scored 23 points on 6-24 shooting, because he shot 11-15 from the line, and had 15 rebounds. So, when Chamberlain shoots 7-21, BUT, also shoots 10-15 from the line (why the choker Russell went 1-4), AND, outrebounds Russell 37-26...well, because it was WILT, it is "choking."

Only a complete moron would blame Chamberlain for losing the '65 ECF's, especially based on your reasoning. Once again, Wilt took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that was at it's peak, and that ran away with best record in the league (62-18.) And in the process, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 30-16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31 rpg to 25 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and even outshot Russell (and badly) from the line, .583 to .472 (oh, and he outscored Russell from the line, too, 49-17.)

You are a laughingstock...

[Deuce Bigalow]

This is all you can come up with? Are you joking?

So, Chamberlain outplays Russell in at least five of the seven games (and I am being generous giving Russell a tie with Chamberlain in game five), and in a couple he wipes the floor with Russell, but you are going to blame a game seven, one point series loss, on a game three in which Chamberlain scored 24 points on 21 shots, and Russell scored 19 on his 17?

BTW, I seem to recall you defending Kobe's game seven in the 2010 Finals, when he scored 23 points on 6-24 shooting, because he shot 11-15 from the line, and had 15 rebounds. So, when Chamberlain shoots 7-21, BUT, also shoots 10-15 from the line (why the choker Russell went 1-4), AND, outrebounds Russell 37-26...well, because it was WILT, it is "choking."

Only a complete moron would blame Chamberlain for losing the '65 ECF's, especially based on your reasoning. Once again, Wilt took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that was at it's peak, and that ran away with best record in the league (62-18.) And in the process, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 30-16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31 rpg to 25 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and even outshot Russell (and badly) from the line, .583 to .472 (oh, and he outscored Russell from the line, too, 49-17.)

You are a laughingstock...
Lol this thread isn't about 5 time champion Kobe Bryant, okay so don't change the subject. He was the leading scorer and grabbed as much rebounds as the Big 3 combined, and scored 10 points in the 4th Quarter. And finally did I mention that his team won and he won Finals MVP? Well, yeah that happened.

Simple Question: If Wilt would have made a couple more freethrows in the 1 point Game 7 loss, does his team win?

And I'm the laughing stock? Lol. have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHJuifYlbY

[jlauber]

Lol this thread isn't about 5 time champion Kobe Bryant, okay so don't change the subject. He was the leading scorer and grabbed as much rebounds as the Big 3 combined, and scored 10 points in the 4th Quarter. And finally did I mention that his team won and he won Finals MVP? Well, yeah that happened.

Simple Question: If Wilt would have made a couple more freethrows in the 1 point Game 7 loss, does his team win?

If Jordan had not missed two FTs in his 63 point playoff game, his team would not have lost that game, and not had been swept.

If Bird didn't shoot awfully in game four of the '87 Finals (7-19), and missed the potential winning shot that could have tied that series at 2-2, who knows how that Finals' turns out.

If Kobe hadn't shot .387 from the field in the '04 Finals, (while Shaq was shooting .631), perhaps his favored Lakers aren't shelled, 4-1 in that series. In fact Kobe cost SHAQ his FOURTH ring as the LEADER of those early 00's Lakers' teams.

If Kareem hadn't shot jacked at a .428 FG% against Thurmond in the '73 playoffs, perhaps his 60-22 Bucks would have beaten that 47-35 Warrior team (and then who knows after that?)

To blame a one-point loss, on shooting 6-13 from the line...in a game in which he shot 12-15 from the field (yes, 80%, and against RUSSELL), as well as grabbing 32 rebounds...is far more of a reach than all of the above my friend.

[fpliii]

If Jordan had not missed two FTs in his 63 point playoff game, his team would not have lost that game, and not had been swept.

If Bird didn't shoot awfully in game four of the '87 Finals (7-19), and missed the potential winning shot that could have tied that series at 2-2, who knows how that Finals' turns out.

If Kobe hadn't shot .387 from the field in the '04 Finals, (while Shaq was shooting .631), perhaps his favored Lakers aren't shelled, 4-1 in that series. In fact Kobe cost SHAQ his FOURTH ring as the LEADER of those early 00's Lakers' teams.

If Kareem hadn't shot jacked at a .428 FG% against Thurmond in the '73 playoffs, perhaps his 60-22 Bucks would have beaten that 47-35 Warrior team (and then who knows after that?)

To blame a one-point loss, on shooting 6-13 from the line...in a game in which he shot 12-15 from the field (yes, 80%, and against RUSSELL), as well as grabbing 32 rebounds...is far more of a reach than all of the above my friend.

jlauber - Make sure you're around in about an hour or so...I'll be able to post the complete 60-61 h2h box score numbers to the spreadsheet around then.

[jlauber]

jlauber - Make sure you're around in about an hour or so...I'll be able to post the complete 60-61 h2h box score numbers to the spreadsheet around then.

I can't promise I will be available then, but I look forward to viewing them when you have them completed. I appreciate the effort. Once again, this work will probably be the most definitive compilation on the 143 H2H's between the two.

[Deuce Bigalow]

If Jordan had not missed two FTs in his 63 point playoff game, his team would not have lost that game, and not had been swept.

If Bird didn't shoot awfully in game four of the '87 Finals (7-19), and missed the potential winning shot that could have tied that series at 2-2, who knows how that Finals' turns out.

If Kobe hadn't shot .387 from the field in the '04 Finals, (while Shaq was shooting .631), perhaps his favored Lakers aren't shelled, 4-1 in that series. In fact Kobe cost SHAQ his FOURTH ring as the LEADER of those early 00's Lakers' teams.

If Kareem hadn't shot jacked at a .428 FG% against Thurmond in the '73 playoffs, perhaps his 60-22 Bucks would have beaten that 47-35 Warrior team (and then who knows after that?)

To blame a one-point loss, on shooting 6-13 from the line...in a game in which he shot 12-15 from the field (yes, 80%, and against RUSSELL), as well as grabbing 32 rebounds...is far more of a reach than all of the above my friend.
Jordan shot 19-21 FT, and his team lost by 4 points
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198604200BOS.html

Bird shot 7-19? Didn't I just mention Wilt shooting 7-21? If Bird choked, then Wilt did too.

It is obvious Kobe played horribly.

That sounds bad for Kareem.

Shooting 6-13 FT, that is under 50% and 7 missed FTs in case you can't count, in a 1 POINT LOSS is not just something to sweep under the rug.

[AK47DR91]

:oldlol: People are still bashing Jordan for losing to the Celtics?

I don't think many players could have beaten the Celtics(Bird, McHale, Parish, DJ, Ainge) with Woolridge and Oakley as their #2 and #3 guy.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today."

"I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers. And it is true, that when Wilt was scoring 50 ppg, it was Russell at 6-9 and Bellamy at 6-11, and the rest were pretty much 6-8 or 6-9 "stiffs."
[QUOTE=jlauber]

[Freedom Kid7]

Can't you two understand your difference of opinions and move on? I feel like you guys argue this whenever a topic comes up.

[Pointguard]

Jordan shot 19-21 FT, and his team lost by 4 points
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198604200BOS.html

Bird shot 7-19? Didn't I just mention Wilt shooting 7-21? If Bird choked, then Wilt did too.

It is obvious Kobe played horribly.

That sounds bad for Kareem.

Shooting 6-13 FT, that is under 50% and 7 missed FTs in case you can't count, in a 1 POINT LOSS is not just something to sweep under the rug.
Duece you just concentrate on free throws. FT shooting was never that big of deal when Shaq was shooting just like Chamberlain. He was still the best guy around and it wasn't close. And Shaq never rebounded anything like Wilt. He was never the five tool player Wilt was. Free throws is one aspect of the game, and always will be. It will not be the end all be all or the consumate estimation of a player. In the vast majority of the finals and conference finals Wilt was by far the best player even with the missed free throws. Remember they considered sitting Shaq at the end of games but there was nobody in the league that affected a game like Shaq. Nash and Mullen were good FT shooters in the clutch but you would be a starch dumb fool to take them over Wilt in a clutch game.

The best clutch player ever shot freethrows like Wilt and Shaq not like Dirk! Wilt would dominate the most clutch guy ever once every three or four games in the playoffs. And rarely ever be outplayed by Russell. Either you need to expand your argument or leave the dead horse alone. Seriously, the game is played on several dimensions and the greatest weren't killing it at the line.

[BlueandGold]

It's actually pretty incredible when you compare his regular season PPG and FG% compared to his playoff PPG and FG%. The dropoff is more than 10-15 points I believe.. which is incredible given how Wilt is arguably the greatest (regular season) scorer of all time, having the record for PPG in both a season at 50 ppg and in a single game at 100 points.

The fact that he had all of those dismal 10-15 point games in series-deciding games is just unexcusable. I believe the OP posted a statistic in that Wilt was like the 9th leading scorer in the Boston series and the 5th leading scorer on his team.. this was given that he also was by far the league's highest point scorer in the regular season and in games where there was considerably less pressure.

I just don't see how someone can explain that type of behavior from what appeared to be by far the league's best player during any regular season game or when they weren't facing the celtics. Also the difference between Wilt and players like Bird, Kobe, kareem who had occasionally had bad playoff shooting games is that they won far more than Wilt did.

Also isn't Wilt's record in game 7's like 0-9 or something like that? I believe he's appeared in like 10 finals games but has only won 2... that's going 2-10 in the Finals given that your by far the best player in the league and also have some of the best talent around you in West, Baylor and Goodrich, the former of the 2 being top15 all time and the three all being top50 greatest players of all time and while also playing with 3 hall of fame players in Philly In Arizin and Alex Hannum.

Again, it's not like Wilt played with no hall of famers like Hakeem did in the 90s (who by the way personally saw fit to give the Rockets 2 championships), he played with at least six other hall of famers in West, Baylor, Goodrich, Arizin, Rogers and Hal Greer), also 5 of which were induced in the NBA's top50 greatest all time players.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Duece you just concentrate on free throws. FT shooting was never that big of deal when Shaq was shooting just like Chamberlain. He was still the best guy around and it wasn't close. And Shaq never rebounded anything like Wilt. He was never the five tool player Wilt was. Free throws is one aspect of the game, and always will be. It will not be the end all be all or the consumate estimation of a player. In the vast majority of the finals and conference finals Wilt was by far the best player even with the missed free throws. Remember they considered sitting Shaq at the end of games but there was nobody in the league that affected a game like Shaq. Nash and Mullen were good FT shooters in the clutch but you would be a starch dumb fool to take them over Wilt in a clutch game.

The best clutch player ever shot freethrows like Wilt and Shaq not like Dirk! Wilt would dominate the most clutch guy ever once every three or four games in the playoffs. And rarely ever be outplayed by Russell. Either you need to expand your argument or leave the dead horse alone. Seriously, the game is played on several dimensions and the greatest weren't killing it at the line.
This is wrong though.

Shaq did not shoot FTs like Wilt, especially in Game 7s and the Finals



Shaq in the Playoffs
1168-2317, 50.4%

Shaq in the Finals
195-382, 51.0%

Shaq in Game 7s
'95 ECF, Game 7: 3-11 ...(24 point win)
'00 WCF, Game 7: 8-12
'02 WCF, Game 7: 11-15
'05 ECF, Game 7: 3-6

Total: 25-44, 56.8%

Wilt in Game 7s
'70 Finals, Game 7: 1-11
'69 Finals, Game 7: 4-13 ...(2 point loss)
'68 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-15 ...(4 point loss)
'65 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-13 ...(1 point loss)
'64 Div Semifinals, Game 7: 1-6
'62 Divisional Finals, Game 7: 8-9

Total: 26-67, 38.8%

Wilt in the Playoffs
757-1627, 46.5%

Wilt in the Finals
124-326, 38.0%

And when you miss that many freethrows in close games, it has an effect. That is why he lost so much. Missing 7, 8, 9 freethrows in a 1 or 2 point loss is something that "doesn't matter"? Well, it matters on the scoreboard.

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's actually pretty incredible when you compare his regular season PPG and FG% compared to his playoff PPG and FG%. The dropoff is more than 10-15 points I believe.. which is incredible given how Wilt is arguably the greatest (regular season) scorer of all time, having the record for PPG in both a season at 50 ppg and in a single game at 100 points.

The fact that he had all of those dismal 10-15 point games in series-deciding games is just unexcusable. I believe the OP posted a statistic in that Wilt was like the 9th leading scorer in the Boston series and the 5th leading scorer on his team.. this was given that he also was by far the league's highest point scorer in the regular season and in games where there was considerably less pressure.

I just don't see how someone can explain that type of behavior from what appeared to be by far the league's best player during any regular season game or when they weren't facing the celtics. Also the difference between Wilt and players like Bird, Kobe, kareem who had occasionally had bad playoff shooting games is that they won far more than Wilt did.

Also isn't Wilt's record in game 7's like 0-9 or something like that? I believe he's appeared in like 10 finals games but has only won 2... that's going 2-10 in the Finals given that your by far the best player in the league and also have some of the best talent around you in West, Baylor and Goodrich, the former of the 2 being top15 all time and the three all being top50 greatest players of all time and while also playing with 3 hall of fame players in Philly In Arizin and Alex Hannum.

Again, it's not like Wilt played with no hall of famers like Hakeem did in the 90s (who by the way personally saw fit to give the Rockets 2 championships), he played with at least six other hall of famers in West, Baylor, Goodrich, Arizin, Rogers and Hal Greer), also 5 of which were induced in the NBA's top50 greatest all time players.
Yep, he was the 9th leading scorer in a Game 7


1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

And his record in the Finals is 2-4 (2 series wins, 4 series losses. Not individual games)

His record in Game 7s was 2-5

[jlauber]

Jordan shot 19-21 FT, and his team lost by 4 points
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198604200BOS.html

Bird shot 7-19? Didn't I just mention Wilt shooting 7-21? If Bird choked, then Wilt did too.

It is obvious Kobe played horribly.

That sounds bad for Kareem.

Shooting 6-13 FT, that is under 50% and 7 missed FTs in case you can't count, in a 1 POINT LOSS is not just something to sweep under the rug.

Bird ROUTINELY had games like that 7-19 performance in the Finals. In his 31 Finals games, he had ELEVEN under .399 (and even TWO under .299.) He shot under .399 as often as he did over .500. Overall, Bird shot .455 in his 31 Finals games, and in leagues that shot, on average in that era, .485.

And Kobe played horribly in 2008. You will NEVER find a series in which Chamberlain shot .387 from the field. In fact, I believe Kobe has had ONE Finals, in SEVEN appearance, in which he shot better than .500, and it was .514. Guess what, in Wilt's SIX Finals, his LOWEST FG% came in a series in which he averaged 29.2 ppg and 27.6 rpg, at .517 (btw, he held Russell to 11.2 ppg and .386 shooting in that series.) In the rest of his Finals, Chamberlain shot .525, .534, .560 (against Thurmond), .600 (FMVP), and in a seven game series, .625 (while averaging 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

That sounds bad for Kareem [.428]? How about these...

.405 against Thurmond in the '71 playoffs (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him.)
.457 against Chamberlain in the '72 WCF's (and in the last four games of that series, Kareem shot .414.)
.481 against Wilt in the '71 WCF's (scoring 25.0 ppg...in a season in which he averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting)
.462 against Moses in '81 (while his heavily-favored Lakers lost to the 40-42 Rockets.)
.481 in the '84 Finals, including a game five of 7-25, which propelled Boston to a 3-2 series lead en route to the title.
.414 in the '88 Finals.

Not only that, but Kareem faced Chamberlain in back-to-back playoff series in '71 and '72, and in the clinching games of those two series, he shot a combined 23-60 (.383) while Wilt shot a combined 18-33 (.545.)

But, let's get this clear now...

YOU are claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's, right?

In a series in which he guided his 40-40 team, to a game seven, one point loss, against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics, and with a series in which he outscored Russell, per game, 30 ppg to 16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game; 31 rpg to 26 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and outshot Russell from the line, .583 to .472 (and outscored Russell from the line, 49-17)?????

[fpliii]

Bird ROUTINELY had games like that 7-19 performance in the Finals. In his 31 Finals games, he had ELEVEN under .399 (and even TWO under .299.) He shot under .399 as often as he did over .500. Overall, Bird shot .455 in his 31 Finals games, and in leagues that shot, on average in that era, .485.

And Kobe played horribly in 2008. You will NEVER find a series in which Chamberlain shot .387 from the field. In fact, I believe Kobe has had ONE Finals, in SEVEN appearance, in which he shot better than .500, and it was .514. Guess what, in Wilt's SIX Finals, his LOWEST FG% came in a series in which he averaged 29.2 ppg and 27.6 rpg, at .517 (btw, he held Russell to 11.2 ppg and .386 shooting in that series.) In the rest of his Finals, Chamberlain shot .525, .534, .560 (against Thurmond), .600 (FMVP), and in a seven game series, .625 (while averaging 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

That sounds bad for Kareem [.428]? How about these...

.405 against Thurmond in the '71 playoffs (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him.)
.457 against Chamberlain in the '72 WCF's (and in the last four games of that series, Kareem shot .414.)
.481 against Wilt in the '71 WCF's (scoring 25.0 ppg...in a season in which he averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting)
.462 against Moses in '81 (while his heavily-favored Lakers lost to the 40-42 Rockets.)
.481 in the '84 Finals, including a game five of 7-25, which propelled Boston to a 3-2 series lead en route to the title.
.414 in the '88 Finals.

Not only that, but Kareem faced Chamberlain in back-to-back playoff series in '71 and '72, and in the clinching games of those two series, he shot a combined 23-60 (.383) while Wilt shot a combined 18-33 (.545.)

But, let's get this clear now...

YOU are claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's, right?

In a series in which he guided his 40-40 team, to a game seven, one point loss, against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics, and with a series in which he outscored Russell, per game, 30 ppg to 16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game; 31 rpg to 26 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and outshot Russell from the line, .583 to .472 (and outscored Russell from the line, 49-17)?????

the spreadsheet has been updated

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird ROUTINELY had games like that 7-19 performance in the Finals. In his 31 Finals games, he had ELEVEN under .399 (and even TWO under .299.) He shot under .399 as often as he did over .500. Overall, Bird shot .455 in his 31 Finals games, and in leagues that shot, on average in that era, .485.

And Kobe played horribly in 2008. You will NEVER find a series in which Chamberlain shot .387 from the field. In fact, I believe Kobe has had ONE Finals, in SEVEN appearance, in which he shot better than .500, and it was .514. Guess what, in Wilt's SIX Finals, his LOWEST FG% came in a series in which he averaged 29.2 ppg and 27.6 rpg, at .517 (btw, he held Russell to 11.2 ppg and .386 shooting in that series.) In the rest of his Finals, Chamberlain shot .525, .534, .560 (against Thurmond), .600 (FMVP), and in a seven game series, .625 (while averaging 23.2 ppg and 24.1 rpg.)

That sounds bad for Kareem [.428]? How about these...

.405 against Thurmond in the '71 playoffs (in a series in which Thurmond outscored and outshot him.)
.457 against Chamberlain in the '72 WCF's (and in the last four games of that series, Kareem shot .414.)
.481 against Wilt in the '71 WCF's (scoring 25.0 ppg...in a season in which he averaged 31.7 ppg on .577 shooting)
.462 against Moses in '81 (while his heavily-favored Lakers lost to the 40-42 Rockets.)
.481 in the '84 Finals, including a game five of 7-25, which propelled Boston to a 3-2 series lead en route to the title.
.414 in the '88 Finals.

Not only that, but Kareem faced Chamberlain in back-to-back playoff series in '71 and '72, and in the clinching games of those two series, he shot a combined 23-60 (.383) while Wilt shot a combined 18-33 (.545.)

But, let's get this clear now...

YOU are claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's, right?

In a series in which he guided his 40-40 team, to a game seven, one point loss, against the HOF-laden 62-18 Celtics, and with a series in which he outscored Russell, per game, 30 ppg to 16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game; 31 rpg to 26 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and outshot Russell from the line, .583 to .472 (and outscored Russell from the line, 49-17)?????
Why are you comparing FG% of Shooting Guards and Small forwards to a 7'1" Center playing against 6'8"-6'9" Centers in that era???

ANSWER MY QUESTION: IF WILT WOULD HAVE MADE A COUPLE MORE FREETHROWS, WOULD HIS TEAM NOT LOSE BY 1 POINT?

Also reply to my post on #117

[Deuce Bigalow]

the spreadsheet has been updated
What'd you do?

Is it this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

[jlauber]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5029077&postcount=53

Wait...Isn't that the weak era "non-sense" I've been posting?

As you already know, those were posted years ago.

Of course, I have since changed my take, especially after carefully researching "The Bridge's" career.

A PRIME Kareem faced an OLD Chamberlain in 28 H2H games (27 of which came after Wilt's knee operation...and in the one before that, Chamberlain just crushed Kareem in every facet of the game.) In those 28 H2H's, Kareem was outshot by Chamberlain .526 to .464. And, in his LAST TEN STRAIGHT games against Chamberlain, he shot .434 (which included shooting .414 in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.)

Kareem had a TOTAL of TEN games, out of those 28, in which he shot .500 or better, and ONE over .600. He had SEVEN games of under .399 against Wilt.

Ok, how about a 38-42 year old Kareem against a 23-26 year old Hakeem, and in the mid-to-late 80's? Kareem outscored him by a 23 ppg to 22 ppg margin, and outshot him, by get this,... a .610 to .512 margin in their 23 H2H games. Not only that, but a 38-39 year old Kareem, in TEN STRAIGHT games, AVERAGED 32 ppg on... .633 shooting. Included in those ten games were games of 40, 43, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting and in only 37 minutes.) Just in those TEN games, Kareem had SIX of 30+.

Then, think about this. A PRIME Kareem faced veteran center Nate Thurmond in 43 career H2H games. His HIGH game against Nate was only 34 points. And, he only had SEVEN games (once again, in 43 H2H encounters) of 30+. In fact, he had SEVEN games of under 20 points against Thurmond. And, in all likelyhood, Kareem shot somewhere around .430 in those 43 H2H's...COMBINED! In his three straight playoff H2H's in '71, '72, and '73, Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428 against Nate.

THEN, think about this. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in a dozen or so games. Yet, he had a span covering ELEVEN STRAIGHT games, (from their last H2H in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and their first H2H in '67), in which he AVERAGED 30 ppg against Thurmond. Included in those 11 games, were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even 45! And he was murdering Nate in those games by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13.

Not only that, but Chamberlain also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and even a .560 to .343 destruction in the '67 Finals (and in a season in which Nate finished second in the MVP balloting.)

And, find me the 60 point games that Kareem had against Connie Dierking (which Wilt handed Dierking the season before Kareem arrived in the NBA.) Or the 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting) that Wilt annihilated Jim Fox with in the '69 season (again, Kareem was a rookie in '70.)

And where were Kareem's THREE 50+ point games against HOFer Willis Reed? Chamberlain bashed Reed over the course of NINE H2H games in the '65 season to the tune of 40.1 ppg...which included margins of 41-9, 52-23, and even 58-28.

How about Kareem's FOUR 60+ games against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. Chamberlain not only had those four 60+ games, including a high game of 73 points (along with 36 rebounds), he AVERAGED 48.2 ppg over the course of TWENTY STRAIGHT games from '62 thur '63 against Bellamy.

Hell, Kareem faced Darral Imhoff several times, too. Where was his 100 point game against Imhoff?

The fact was, Chamberlain dominated many of the same centers that Kareem would face in his career, and by a FAR greater extent than Kareem did.

Yet, a 38-39 year old Kareem could hang THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem? BTW, A PRIME Shaq had his high game against a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs, of "only" 37 points. Something to consider about the "weak era" crap.

[jlauber]

Why are you comparing FG% of Shooting Guards and Small forwards to a 7'1" Center playing against 6'8"-6'9" Centers in that era???

ANSWER MY QUESTION: IF WILT WOULD HAVE MADE A COUPLE MORE FREETHROWS, WOULD HIS TEAM NOT LOSE BY 1 POINT?

Also reply to my post on #117

I already did.

Now, answer mine...

Are you claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's?

[jlauber]

Yep, he was the 9th leading scorer in a Game 7



And his record in the Finals is 2-4 (2 series wins, 4 series losses. Not individual games)

His record in Game 7s was 2-5

Chamberlain's record in game seven's was 4-5, BUT, his record in absolute elimination games (game five in a best-of-five, and game three of a best-of-three) is 6-5.

Not only that, but in those 11 games, he averaged 29.9 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .581 from the floor, while holding his opposing centers to a 9.8 ppg average in that span. Now, that is pure domination my friend.

[Deuce Bigalow]

As you already know, those were posted years ago.

Of course, I have since changed my take, especially after carefully researching "The Bridge's" career.

A PRIME Kareem faced an OLD Chamberlain in 28 H2H games (27 of which came after Wilt's knee operation...and in the one before that, Chamberlain just crushed Kareem in every facet of the game.) In those 28 H2H's, Kareem was outshot by Chamberlain .526 to .464. And, in his LAST TEN STRAIGHT games against Chamberlain, he shot .434 (which included shooting .414 in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.)

Kareem had a TOTAL of TEN games, out of those 28, in which he shot .500 or better, and ONE over .600. He had SEVEN games of under .399 against Wilt.

Ok, how about a 38-42 year old Kareem against a 23-26 year old Hakeem, and in the mid-to-late 80's? Kareem outscored him by a 23 ppg to 22 ppg margin, and outshot him, by get this,... a .610 to .512 margin in their 23 H2H games. Not only that, but a 38-39 year old Kareem, in TEN STRAIGHT games, AVERAGED 32 ppg on... .633 shooting. Included in those ten games were games of 40, 43, and 46 points (on 21-30 shooting and in only 37 minutes.) Just in those TEN games, Kareem had SIX of 30+.

Then, think about this. A PRIME Kareem faced veteran center Nate Thurmond in 43 career H2H games. His HIGH game against Nate was only 34 points. And, he only had SEVEN games (once again, in 43 H2H encounters) of 30+. In fact, he had SEVEN games of under 20 points against Thurmond. And, in all likelyhood, Kareem shot somewhere around .430 in those 43 H2H's...COMBINED! In his three straight playoff H2H's in '71, '72, and '73, Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428 against Nate.

THEN, think about this. A PRIME "scoring" Wilt only faced Thurmond in a dozen or so games. Yet, he had a span covering ELEVEN STRAIGHT games, (from their last H2H in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and their first H2H in '67), in which he AVERAGED 30 ppg against Thurmond. Included in those 11 games, were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even 45! And he was murdering Nate in those games by margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and 45-13.

Not only that, but Chamberlain also faced Thurmond in three playoff series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and even a .560 to .343 destruction in the '67 Finals (and in a season in which Nate finished second in the MVP balloting.)

And, find me the 60 point games that Kareem had against Connie Dierking (which Wilt handed Dierking the season before Kareem arrived in the NBA.) Or the 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting) that Wilt annihilated Jim Fox with in the '69 season (again, Kareem was a rookie in '70.)

And where were Kareem's THREE 50+ point games against HOFer Willis Reed? Chamberlain bashed Reed over the course of NINE H2H games in the '65 season to the tune of 40.1 ppg...which included margins of 41-9, 52-23, and even 58-28.

How about Kareem's FOUR 60+ games against 6-11 HOFer Walt Bellamy. Chamberlain not only had those four 60+ games, including a high game of 73 points (along with 36 rebounds), he AVERAGED 48.2 ppg over the course of TWENTY STRAIGHT games from '62 thur '63 against Bellamy.

Hell, Kareem faced Darral Imhoff several times, too. Where was his 100 point game against Imhoff?

The fact was, Chamberlain dominated many of the same centers that Kareem would face in his career, and by a FAR greater extent than Kareem did.

Yet, a 38-39 year old Kareem could hang THREE games of 40+ on Hakeem? BTW, A PRIME Shaq had his high game against a 36 year old Hakeem in the '99 playoffs, of "only" 37 points. Something to consider about the "weak era" crap.
So you don't believe it was a weak era anymore because of how all the great Centers of the past era dominated the next great Center of the modern era and so on?

[Deuce Bigalow]

I already did.

Now, answer mine...

Are you claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's?
i don't see your answer :confusedshrug:

[jlauber]

It's actually pretty incredible when you compare his regular season PPG and FG% compared to his playoff PPG and FG%. The dropoff is more than 10-15 points I believe.. which is incredible given how Wilt is arguably the greatest (regular season) scorer of all time, having the record for PPG in both a season at 50 ppg and in a single game at 100 points.

The fact that he had all of those dismal 10-15 point games in series-deciding games is just unexcusable. I believe the OP posted a statistic in that Wilt was like the 9th leading scorer in the Boston series and the 5th leading scorer on his team.. this was given that he also was by far the league's highest point scorer in the regular season and in games where there was considerably less pressure.

I just don't see how someone can explain that type of behavior from what appeared to be by far the league's best player during any regular season game or when they weren't facing the celtics. Also the difference between Wilt and players like Bird, Kobe, kareem who had occasionally had bad playoff shooting games is that they won far more than Wilt did.

Also isn't Wilt's record in game 7's like 0-9 or something like that? I believe he's appeared in like 10 finals games but has only won 2... that's going 2-10 in the Finals given that your by far the best player in the league and also have some of the best talent around you in West, Baylor and Goodrich, the former of the 2 being top15 all time and the three all being top50 greatest players of all time and while also playing with 3 hall of fame players in Philly In Arizin and Alex Hannum.

Again, it's not like Wilt played with no hall of famers like Hakeem did in the 90s (who by the way personally saw fit to give the Rockets 2 championships), he played with at least six other hall of famers in West, Baylor, Goodrich, Arizin, Rogers and Hal Greer), also 5 of which were induced in the NBA's top50 greatest all time players.

Aside from Jordan, give me the list of all-time great players who had FOUR 50+ point games in their post-season careers, including THREE in "must-win" games?

And, give me a list of the all-time greats that had a 30 point 27 rebound, 5 assist, .515 shooting game in their post-season career. Why? Because that is what Chamberlain AVERAGED in his first 67 post-season games (35 of which were against Russell.) Think about that ... a 30-27-5 .515 game EVERY time he stepped on the floor in his first 67 post-season games.

Give me a list of players who had a 30 ppg, 20 rpg post-season. Chamberlain had FOUR.

And "the choker" also had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg too.

Continued...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain's record in game seven's was 4-5, BUT, his record in absolute elimination games (game five in a best-of-five, and game three of a best-of-three) is 6-5.

Not only that, but in those 11 games, he averaged 29.9 ppg, 26.7 rpg, and shot .581 from the floor, while holding his opposing centers to a 9.8 ppg average in that span. Now, that is pure domination my friend.
Where did you get a total of 9 Game 7s?

1962 G7 vs Celtics L
1964 G7 vs. Hawks W
1965 G7 vs. Celtics L
1968 G7 vs Celtics L
1969 G7 vs. Celtics L
1970 G7 vs. Suns W
1970 G7 vs. Knicks: L

2-5

[jlauber]

Continuing...


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.


Continued...

[Deuce Bigalow]

Aside from Jordan, give me the list of all-time great players who had FOUR 50+ point games in their post-season careers, including THREE in "must-win" games?

And, give me a list of the all-time greats that had a 30 point 27 rebound, 5 assist, .515 shooting game in their post-season career. Why? Because that is what Chamberlain AVERAGED in his first 67 post-season games (35 of which were against Russell.) Think about that ... a 30-27-5 .515 game EVERY time he stepped on the floor in his first 67 post-season games.

Give me a list of players who had a 30 ppg, 20 rpg post-season. Chamberlain had FOUR.

And "the choker" also had post-season series of 37.0 ppg, 37.0 ppg, 38.6 ppg, and 38.7 ppg too.

Continued...
Ugh...How many times do I have to say this?

It was a different era. the '60s is a COMPLETELY different era to the modern era. The pace which affects stats is totally different and the amount of FGA are not even close.

[jlauber]

Where did you get a total of 9 Game 7s?

1962 G7 vs Celtics L
1964 G7 vs. Hawks W
1965 G7 vs. Celtics L
1968 G7 vs Celtics L
1969 G7 vs. Celtics L
1970 G7 vs. Suns W
1970 G7 vs. Knicks: L

2-5

I already answered it, but in '71 and '73 against the Bulls.

BTW, he also had a best-of-three series against Syracuse in '60 (and put up a 53-22 game three in a win); and a best-of-five against Syracuse in '62 (and hung a 56-35 game in a win.)

[jlauber]

Continuing...


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Chamberlain went 18-33 in those two games .545.

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.


Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[jlauber]

ONE MORE TIME...


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, on 8-18 shooting, while Russell had a 25-25 game, and on 11-26 shooting.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds, on 12-28 shooting. Russell had 14 points and 26 points, on 5-11 shooting in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game, on 13-23 shooting. Russell with a 22-21 game, on 8-19 shooting, in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds, on 4-6 shooting, in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/9 FG, 25 rebounds and 1 assist. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points on 5/11 FG, 29 rebounds and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points on 12/20 FG 14 rebounds and 3 assists. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points on 4/11 FG, 26 rebounds, 11 assists and 12 blocks (unofficial quad). Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points on 11/18 FG, 27 rebounds, 6 assists and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points on 5/10 FG, 21 rebounds and 10 blocks. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points on 7/12 FG,18 rebounds and 9 assists. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points on 4/6, 31 rebounds and 8 assists. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points on 10/17 FG, 28 rebounds, 4 asissts and 8 blocks. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

The article about this series sad that Wilt blocked Chicago from playoffs after blocking 49 shots in 7 games.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points on 2/2 FG, 22 rebounds, 7 assists. Thurmond had 9 points on 2/9 FG, 18 or 15 rebounds and 5 assists in 32 minutes in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.


Now, I challenge anyone here to produce another all-time great, and ALL of their "must-win" and "series clinching" performances, and to compare it to the above...(including the play of their OPPOSING defenders.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

NBA League Averages

1960-61: 109.4 FGA, 73.3 RPG, 118.1 PPG
1961-62: 107.7 FGA, 71.4 RPG, 118.8 PPG
1962-63: 101.2 FGA, 66.7 RPG, 115.3 PPG

2008-09: 80.9 FGA, 41.3 RPG, 100.0 PPG
2009-10: 81.7 FGA, 41.7 RPG, 100.4 PPG
2010-11: 81.2 FGA, 41.4 RPG, 99.6 PPG

Now stop with the "find me who else can do this" crap

[b1imtf]

NBA League Averages

1960-61: 109.4 FGA, 73.3 RPG, 118.1 PPG
1961-62: 107.7 FGA, 71.4 RPG, 118.8 PPG
1962-63: 101.2 FGA, 66.7 RPG, 115.3 PPG

2008-09: 80.9 FGA, 41.3 RPG, 100.0 PPG
2009-10: 81.7 FGA, 41.7 RPG, 100.4 PPG
2010-11: 81.2 FGA, 41.4 RPG, 99.6 PPG

Now stop with the "find me who else can do this" crap
Imagine today's players in that era :bowdown:

[jlauber]

NBA League Averages

1960-61: 109.4 FGA, 73.3 RPG, 118.1 PPG
1961-62: 107.7 FGA, 71.4 RPG, 118.8 PPG
1962-63: 101.2 FGA, 66.7 RPG, 115.3 PPG

2008-09: 80.9 FGA, 41.3 RPG, 100.0 PPG
2009-10: 81.7 FGA, 41.7 RPG, 100.4 PPG
2010-11: 81.2 FGA, 41.4 RPG, 99.6 PPG

Now stop with the "find me who else can do this" crap


Post the league average FG%'s too.

Not only that but post the post-season scoring and shooting for every year in the decade of the 60's.

For instance, how about the '65 playoffs. The NBA averaged 113.7 ppg and on .429 shooting. How about Chamberlain against Russell in the '65 ECF's? 30.1 ppg on .555 shooting.

In the '64 post-season, the NBA averaged 105.8 ppg on .420. Chamberlain's entire post-season? 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting.

Even the 61-62 post-season was considerably lower. 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting. Chamberlain had a 35.0 ppg .467 post-season that year.

[jlauber]

NBA League Averages

1960-61: 109.4 FGA, 73.3 RPG, 118.1 PPG
1961-62: 107.7 FGA, 71.4 RPG, 118.8 PPG
1962-63: 101.2 FGA, 66.7 RPG, 115.3 PPG

2008-09: 80.9 FGA, 41.3 RPG, 100.0 PPG
2009-10: 81.7 FGA, 41.7 RPG, 100.4 PPG
2010-11: 81.2 FGA, 41.4 RPG, 99.6 PPG

Now stop with the "find me who else can do this" crap

BTW, Dunce, do some REAL research on those rebounding numbers before you post them. Pick ANY team in those years, and compare their average, with their ACTUAL team TOTALs....and get back to me. You will not fine ONE team that had anywhere near a 70 rpg season.

And, incidently, in Wilt's LAST post-season, and covering 17 playoff games, he averaged 22.5 rpg in a post-season in which the NBA averaged 50.6 rpg. That translates to 19 rpg in the 2012 playoffs.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Post the league average FG%'s too.

Not only that but post the post-season scoring and shooting for every year in the decade of the 60's.

For instance, how about the '65 playoffs. The NBA averaged 113.7 ppg and on .429 shooting. How about Chamberlain against Russell in the '65 ECF's? 30.1 ppg on .555 shooting.

In the '64 post-season, the NBA averaged 105.8 ppg on .420. Chamberlain's entire post-season? 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and on .543 shooting.

Even the 61-62 post-season was considerably lower. 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting. Chamberlain had a 35.0 ppg .467 post-season that year.
'40's and '50s Defense is better because it has lower FG%, right?

Some amazing 30s% FG average. Amazing defense :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

You also got to factor the competition


"I know that this is getting away from the original post some, but most people tend to diminish Wilt's accomplishments because he was so much bigger, taller, stronger, and more athletic than his opposing centers. And it is true, that when Wilt was scoring 50 ppg, it was Russell at 6-9 and Bellamy at 6-11, and the rest were pretty much 6-8 or 6-9 "stiffs."

[jlauber]

'40's and '50s Defense is better because it has lower FG%, right?

Some amazing 30s% FG average. Amazing defense :bowdown:

How about your boy Kareem?

Compare Kareem's FG%'s in the 70's with his in the 80's. Same with Dantley and Gilmore. In fact, compare just about any player whose career spanned to those two decades and get back to me.

NO DEFENSE was being played in the 80's...AT ALL.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How about your boy Kareem?

Compare Kareem's FG%'s in the 70's with his in the 80's. Same with Dantley and Gilmore. In fact, compare just about any player whose career spanned to those two decades and get back to me.

NO DEFENSE was being played in the 80's...AT ALL.
And you think there was actual defense in the 60s?
LOLOL

[jlauber]

You also got to factor the competition

Bellamy, Lanier, and Thurmond, were all 6-11 and would all be listed at 7-0+ in TODAY's NBA. Kareem was 7-2 and would be over 7-3. Russell was 6-10 and would be Dwight's height.

Jerry Lucas was 6-8 and about the same height as Kevin Love, as well as a similar shooter and rebounder.

Gus Johnson was 6-6, weighed 235 lbs, and probably had a higher vertical than Jordan.

BTW, in Wilt's last two seasons, and in leagues in which he hardly even shot the ball, he faced the 6-11 265 lb. Bob Lanier in ten straight games...and averaged 24.5 ppg on...get this... .750 shooting.

[Deuce Bigalow]

"No one has any clutch stories on Chamberlain. If they existed, I'd pass them along."

- Bill Simmons

:roll:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bellamy, Lanier, and Thurmond, were all 6-11 and would all be listed at 7-0+ in TODAY's NBA. Kareem was 7-2 and would be over 7-3. Russell was 6-10 and would be Dwight's height.

Jerry Lucas was 6-8 and about the same height as Kevin Love, as well as a similar shooter and rebounder.

Gus Johnson was 6-6, weighed 235 lbs, and probably had a higher vertical than Jordan.

BTW, in Wilt's last two seasons, and in leagues in which he hardly even shot the ball, he faced the 6-11 265 lb. Bob Lanier in ten straight games...and averaged 24.5 ppg on...get this... .750 shooting.

"not to diminish guys like Russell and West, two great defenders...but defense back then was nowhere near as good as it is today."
...

[jlauber]

And you think there was actual defense in the 60s?
LOLOL

Once again...Kareem faced Nate Thurmond in 43 career H2H's. I seriously doubt that he had a dozen games of over 50% against him, and I am convinced his career FG% against him was around .430. In fact, in their KNOWN H2H FG% games, it was even lower. He even had playoff series against him of .428 and .405.

Kareem faced an OLD Chamberlain in 28 H2H games, and shot .464 against him, which was nearly a hundred points under his CAREER FG% of .559.

[jlauber]

"No one has any clutch stories on Chamberlain. If they existed, I'd pass them along."

- Bill Simmons

:roll:

Bill Simmons was born in 1969, never saw them play one game, and was a notorious LIAR.

Read this and get back to me...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160893

[jlauber]

BTW, have you done the RESEARCH that I asked?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Bigalow
NBA League Averages

1960-61: 109.4 FGA, 73.3 RPG, 118.1 PPG
1961-62: 107.7 FGA, 71.4 RPG, 118.8 PPG
1962-63: 101.2 FGA, 66.7 RPG, 115.3 PPG

2008-09: 80.9 FGA, 41.3 RPG, 100.0 PPG
2009-10: 81.7 FGA, 41.7 RPG, 100.4 PPG
2010-11: 81.2 FGA, 41.4 RPG, 99.6 PPG

Now stop with the "find me who else can do this" crap


BTW, Dunce, do some REAL research on those rebounding numbers before you post them. Pick ANY team in those years, and compare their average, with their ACTUAL team TOTALs....and get back to me. You will not fine ONE team that had anywhere near a 70 rpg season.

And, incidently, in Wilt's LAST post-season, and covering 17 playoff games, he averaged 22.5 rpg in a post-season in which the NBA averaged 50.6 rpg. That translates to 19 rpg in the 2012 playoffs.

[jlauber]

And one more damned time...

Are YOU claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's????

[Deuce Bigalow]

And one more damned time...

Are YOU claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's????
In stretches, yes.
7-21 FG in Game 3 and 6-13 FT in a 1 point loss isn't something to sleep on.

Answer these:


So you don't believe it was a weak era anymore because of how all the great Centers of the past era dominated the next great Center of the modern era and so on?


i don't see your answer :confusedshrug:
On if Wilt would have made a couple more FT in that 1 point Game 7 loss, could they have won?

[Deuce Bigalow]

BTW, have you done the RESEARCH that I asked?
I'm tired of looking at stats. Too much for today.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bill Simmons was born in 1969, never saw them play one game, and was a notorious LIAR.

Read this and get back to me...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=160893
Your top 10 is interesting, especially for Kobe since that was before winning his 5th, you already had him above Hakeem, Duncan, and Bird.

What is it now?

[julizaver]

the spreadsheet has been updated

From that numbers we can see what a rivalry is:

- both players played in all 13 meetings during 1960/61 season - Wilt played in 624 minutes, Russell in 613 minutes

Wilt 35.54 ppg, 30.62 rpg, 1.85 apg, 0.492 FG, 0.497 FT in 48.0 min

Russ 18.77 ppg, 25.38 rpg, 3.62 apg 0.398 FG, 0.409 FT in 47.15 min

Interestingly is that Wilt in the five Warriors wins has almost the same stats, while Russell stats decrease:


Wilt 35.40 ppg, 30.00 rpg, 1.80 apg, 0.500 FG, 0.559 FT
Russ 17.40 ppg, 20.00 rpg, 2.60 apg, 0.365 FG, 0.300 FT

[Horatio33]

This is all you can come up with? Are you joking?

So, Chamberlain outplays Russell in at least five of the seven games (and I am being generous giving Russell a tie with Chamberlain in game five), and in a couple he wipes the floor with Russell, but you are going to blame a game seven, one point series loss, on a game three in which Chamberlain scored 24 points on 21 shots, and Russell scored 19 on his 17?

BTW, I seem to recall you defending Kobe's game seven in the 2010 Finals, when he scored 23 points on 6-24 shooting, because he shot 11-15 from the line, and had 15 rebounds. So, when Chamberlain shoots 7-21, BUT, also shoots 10-15 from the line (why the choker Russell went 1-4), AND, outrebounds Russell 37-26...well, because it was WILT, it is "choking."

Only a complete moron would blame Chamberlain for losing the '65 ECF's, especially based on your reasoning. Once again, Wilt took a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point loss, against a HOF-laden Celtic team that was at it's peak, and that ran away with best record in the league (62-18.) And in the process, Chamberlain outscored Russell, per game, 30-16 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31 rpg to 25 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and even outshot Russell (and badly) from the line, .583 to .472 (oh, and he outscored Russell from the line, too, 49-17.)

You are a laughingstock...

I'm a Kobe hater, but Kobe scored key baskets and free throws to help his team win game 7.

Elimination games aren't about numbers, it's about willing your team to victory, something Wilt rarely did.

[Horatio33]

And one more damned time...

Are YOU claiming that Wilt CHOKED in the '65 ECF's????

Didn't want the ball on the final play, that why Chet Walker threw it to Hal Greer, who was going to use a screen on a potential game winner. All because Wilt didn't want the ball. He couldn't choke because he didn't give himself the chance to attempt the shot.

[fpliii]

What'd you do?

Is it this? https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdEpOeFRwY29NRTUtWVlFWVJ5TkFDY 3c#gid=0

yeah that's the one

I'm actually fairly partial to Russell nowadays (right now I'm working on completing his career game log), so it's been interesting working on filling this in

I was born 17 years after these guys last played so I wanted to get a read on this rivalry

I don't have much to say about Wilt (though it's always fun to see you guys go at it), and I'm not sure what the bottom line on him is...tbh though I don't really care, but both guys are historically interesting enough that it's worth checking them out (in addition, you have to put both guys in your top ten all-time 'weird careers' list; so many strange things happened with both guys)

idk man

[julizaver]

yeah that's the one

I'm actually fairly partial to Russell nowadays (right now I'm working on completing his career game log), so it's been interesting working on filling this in

I was born 17 years after these guys last played so I wanted to get a read on this rivalry

I don't have much to say about Wilt (though it's always fun to see you guys go at it), and I'm not sure what the bottom line on him is...tbh though I don't really care, but both guys are historically interesting enough that it's worth checking them out (in addition, you have to put both guys in your top ten all-time 'weird careers' list; so many strange things happened with both guys)

idk man

I put some data in for Russell for 1961-62 season (FGAs and assists), thanks to that update:
http://www.risingabovetherim.com/boxscores

[guy]

It's late, so I am going to take my time, and deal with this nonsense...one-by-one...

61-62 ECF's

Chamberlain not only managed to have TWO games of 40+, in one of them he outscored Russell, 42-9, and outrebounded him in that same game, 37-20, while outshooting Russell from the floor, 16-31 to 4-14.. With all of that, his TEAM won the game by a 113-106 margin.

Chamberlain took what had been the core of the same basic LAST PLACE roster he inherited in his rookie season, to a 49-31 record that season. Meanwhile, Russell and his SIX other HOF teammates went 60-20.

During the regular season, Chamberlain averaged 39.7 ppg on .471 against Russell in ten H2H games, in an NBA season in which the league averaged 118.8 ppg and on .426 shooting.

In the ECF's, Wilt "declined" all the way down to 33.6 ppg on .468 shooting. Meanwhile, he held Russell, who had shot .457 against the NBA during the regular season, to .399 shooting in that series. Oh, and BTW, the NBA averaged 112.6 ppg on .411 shooting in the '62 playoffs. Chamberlain was WAY over the league average in FG% against Russell in BOTH the regular season, AND the post-season. Meanwhile, and as was almost ALWAYS the case, Chamberlain held Russell BELOW the league average.

Overall, Wilt's teammates shot .354 in that post-season. His two "HOF' teammates, Arizin and Gola shot .375 and .271 respectively.

With all of that, Wilt carried that putrid roster to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden Celtics.

Wilt's teammate, Tom Meschery summed it up best, "The Boston players, man-for-man, were better players than the Warriors. To go as far as we did was WILT's doing. We came within two points of the championship."

BTW, Chamberlain shot 58-92 from the line. Russell was at 36-51. So, as always, Wilt nearly DOUBLED Russell's scoring just from the FT line.

FT's matter kids...and Wilt AND his TEAM almost always SCORED more than their opponents. In MANY cases by HUGE margins.

Don't see what you're trying to defend here. There's no excuse for that poor FT shooting. I don't believe Shaq was even that bad, and he's almost always put below Wilt. FT shooting is literally the only aspect that that one player has sole control of. And Wilt blew that sh*t away. How are you trying to defend this? You're basic argument is that Wilt couldn't have done more, well yes he could've hit his damn FTs.

[RRR3]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7619070&postcount=173

Read this, Jlauber, please. Now you know Dunce is just trolling you

[Deuce Bigalow]

Don't see what you're trying to defend here. There's no excuse for that poor FT shooting. I don't believe Shaq was even that bad, and he's almost always put below Wilt. FT shooting is literally the only aspect that that one player has sole control of. And Wilt blew that sh*t away. How are you trying to defend this? You're basic argument is that Wilt couldn't have done more, well yes he could've hit his damn FTs.
:applause:
I can understand shooting 50%, but to not even shoot half that percentage in a Game 7 in which you lose by 2 points ('69 Finals, Game 7: 4-13 FT, 2 point loss) is inexcusable.
Or to shoot 8-25 FT (17 misses) in an elimination Playoff game ('65 Div Finals, Game 5)
You can't make excuses for that.

[millwad]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7619070&postcount=173

Read this, Jlauber, please. Now you know Dunce is just trolling you


SMH... So pathetic, calling Deuce "Dunce" just because Jlauber does it is so lame and weak.. :facepalm

[RRR3]

SMH... So pathetic, calling Deuce "Dunce" just because Jlauber does it is so lame and weak.. :facepalm
I call him dunce because he's an idiot and thinks Kobe is the GOAT :confusedshrug:

[millwad]

I call him dunce because he's an idiot and thinks Kobe is the GOAT :confusedshrug:

And picking up a nickname Jlauber started with shows that you're an idiot for copying a troll who claims that the 60's were a much better era than the current one.

[RRR3]

And picking up a nickname Jlauber started with shows that you're an idiot for copying a troll who claims that the 60's were a much better era than the current one.
Half the board calls him Dunce and the "thinkin' slow" part I often use is from Neveah anyways. :coleman: Stop trying to pick a fight

[Deuce Bigalow]

I call him dunce because he's an idiot and thinks Kobe is the GOAT :confusedshrug:
:roll:

This troll that gets banned every other weak becasue he's a RRRetard calling me an idiot :oldlol:

And I have posted that I rank Kobe 7th AT dozens of times. Maybe you can't RRRead?

[RRR3]

:roll:

This troll that gets banned every other weak becasue he's a RRRetard calling me an idiot :oldlol:

And I have posted that I rank Kobe 7th AT dozens of times. Maybe you can't RRRead?
Damn, thinkin' slow back at it again. I get banned because Jeff doesn't LeBron fans anyways

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bump for the new generation.

[CavaliersFTW]

Bump for the new generation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8

His peers and opponents did not consider him a "choker" so why do you insist on revising history and pushing such a narrative 40-50 years after he played? You present his stats on basketball reference without presenting it with the necessary compliment of actual newspapers and footage sources from that time for a complete source of context to learn about the real life narratives that were going on at those times. At this point your agenda is strange because Jlauber is likely dead, and nobody is here to drop nukes of essays anymore for a good laugh so I don't even know what the reasoning is? You ghost hunting for jlaubers spirit? If so just PM CF86, he's got all sorts of equipment and experience with stuff like that

[Mr. Jabbar]

Wilt would be proud of Lebron

[Kiddlovesnets]

The OP is definitely one of the worst posters here, kobestans are insane nowadays.
:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwvdsi6gLl8

His peers and opponents did not consider him a "choker" so why do you insist on revising history and pushing such a narrative 40-50 years after he played? You present his stats on basketball reference without presenting it with the necessary compliment of actual newspapers and footage sources from that time for a complete source of context to learn about the real life narratives that were going on at those times. At this point your agenda is strange because Jlauber is likely dead, and nobody is here to drop nukes of essays anymore for a good laugh so I don't even know what the reasoning is? You ghost hunting for jlaubers spirit? If so just PM CF86, he's got all sorts of equipment and experience with stuff like that
When asked if he lacks a killer instinct
"It can be said, it can be said"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=173M7ApCNKw

Props to griff for finding that gem.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The OP is definitely one of the worst posters here, kobestans are insane nowadays.
:facepalm
Coming from a guy that believes that Kobe=Robert Horry in 00-02
:facepalm You have no reason to talk about who's insane, you are insane.

[Lebron23]

This is the PURE IMAGE OF CHOKING:

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-psSaCpk6VKY/UGM3edtIV8I/AAAAAAAADPE/BkC8uaKjoAg/s1600/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[Lebron23]

Wilt Chokeberlain was also the 5th and 3rd leading scorer of his team when they he won the championship in 1967 and 1972. Wilt was a very good rebounder in the Finals.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Shit, I've never seen this one :eek: This is Lazeruss' boy and then he talks about one of the greatest in the clutch, Larry Legend, who more often than not maintained/elevated his game in the post-season? :facepalm :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

[oarabbus]

Shit, I've never seen this one :eek: This is Lazeruss' boy and then he talks about one of the greatest in the clutch, Larry Legend, who more often than not maintained/elevated his game in the post-season? :facepalm :oldlol:

He was just posting about how Bird isn't worth a damn compared to Wilt just a minute ago.

[jongib369]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
https://31.media.tumblr.com/8474267406bd2f4e81091ed1ed20f233/tumblr_mhj1fb5vPH1ruzeslo1_500.jpg


Bill....What are you doing....Sthap...Sthapp...STHAPPPPP


Y!!!!!!

[oarabbus]

https://31.media.tumblr.com/8474267406bd2f4e81091ed1ed20f233/tumblr_mhj1fb5vPH1ruzeslo1_500.jpg


Bill....What are you doing....Sthap...Sthapp...STHAPPPPP


Y!!!!!!

Wilt in that photo: OH LAWD JESUS

[LAZERUSS]

Shit, I've never seen this one :eek: This is Lazeruss' boy and then he talks about one of the greatest in the clutch, Larry Legend, who more often than not maintained/elevated his game in the post-season? :facepalm :oldlol:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323753&page=4

MUCH more CLUTCH than your boy Larry.



But let's add it to this topic to prove it...


Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures while Dirk improves his play in the postseason:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Bird the GOAT choker.

[SHAQisGOAT]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=323753&page=4

MUCH more CLUTCH than your boy Larry.



But let's add it to this topic to prove it...



Bird the GOAT choker.

:roll: So mad.

Posting the same bullshit list when everyone knows that it's redundant, filled with ignorance and lies, only built to fit an agenda, when everyone makes nothing out of it and pays it no mind, much the opposite for Wilt's "real" choking resume. Keeping posting that though. :lol

Wilt could out-choke anyone. Look at that incredible resume :eek: , and all the people here praising it :bowdown: :applause:

[Angel Face]

Lebron James is a closet Wilt stan. He never tells it in his interviews.

[Dr.J4ever]

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)
Eye opener... If you look at Wilt's numbers alone, it's pretty clear that he SHOULD be the greatest player of all time. However, there are very few people today who regard Wilt in this light.

Facts such as the one posted above have clearly affected Wilt's career to such a degree, that while many concede him to be the single most dominant player ever, he is rarely regarded as the ultimate winner. Players such as Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and even others seem to have surpassed Wilt in the conversation.

Wilt was a larger than life figure, a literal giant in the game. But he also had crucial weaknesses, and many of his contemporaries knew it and exploited it.

[LAZERUSS]

Eye opener... If you look at Wilt's numbers alone, it's pretty clear that he SHOULD be the greatest player of all time. However, there are very few people today who regard Wilt in this light.

Facts such as the one posted above have clearly affected Wilt's career to such a degree, that while many concede him to be the single most dominant player ever, he is rarely regarded as the ultimate winner. Players such as Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and even others seem to have surpassed Wilt in the conversation.

Wilt was a larger than life figure, a literal giant in the game. But he also had crucial weaknesses, and many of his contemporaries knew it and exploited it.

Research my friend.


61-62 EDF's. Wilt single-handedly carries essentially the same last place roster he joined in his rookie season, and past Syracuse in the first round with a 37 ppg 23 rpg series, and with a must-win and clinching game five 56-35 performance. His badly overmatched teammates lose a game seven to a HOF-laden 60-20 Celtic team by two points. BTW, Wilt's teammates collectively shoot .354 in that post-season. And Wilt averaged 34 ppg and 26 rpg in the series, badly outscoring, and outshooting Russell, and also outrebounding him

63-64 Finals. After taking what had been a 31-49 team to a 48-32 record, and with a seven game series average of 39 ppg, 23 rpg, and on a .559 FG%, he then takes that roster to the Finals, where they lose to a Celtic team that has an 8-2 edge in HOFers, 4-1. BUT, the last two games are decided in the waning seconds. Oh, and Chamberlain outscores Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebounds Russell, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshoots Russell in the series, .517 to .386.

64-65 EDF's. Gotta love this one. Chamberlain single-handedly takes a 40-40 team, to a game seven, one point loss, and in that game seven, puts up 30 points, on 12-15 FG/FGA, with 32 rebounds. Oh, and that series, all he did was average 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555 from the field...and crushed Russell by the largest margin any GOAT candidate has ever received.

65-66. EDF's. Yep, Wilt shot 8-25 from the line in that clinching game five loss, and could only score 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. In the series, he averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg, and shot .509 (badly outplaying Russell in all three categories), and how about his teammates? They collectively shot .352 from the field in that series.

67-68 EDF's. READ Cherry's account on THAT series please. Chamberlain was playing with an assortment of injuries, including one that was similar to what Willis Reed suffered in the '70 Finals (and was basically a statue after that), and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING throughout the series. That Sixer team was also without HOFer Cunningham the entire series, and still had a 3-1 seriees lead. Then, in game five, (and in a game in which a hobbled Chamberlain put up a 28-30 performance) they lost TWO more starters to injury. They would go on to lose a game seven, by four points. And, BTW, Chamberlain only TOUCHED the damned ball SEVEN times in the entire second half, and only TWICE in the 4th quarter (and those came on offensive rebounds.) He only scored 14 points, but had 34 rebounds, (Russell put up a 12-26 game), and for the series, the "choker" put up a 22-25 .487 series.

68-69 Finals. I don't have the time to detail just how horribly coached that team was. But, in any case, in that game seven, he outscored Russell, 18-6; he outrebounded Russell, 27-21; and he outshot Russell from the field, 7-8 to 2-7... oh and his incompetent coach left him on the bench in the last five minutes of a two point loss. It was his worst Finals, and yet he still easily outplayed Russell. Incidently, take Wilt and Russell's FG/FGAs out of that game seven, and Russell's teammates outshot Wilt's by a .477 to .360 margin...again, in a two point loss.

69-70. If you are going to blame Wilt for choking away this series, then I will ad 88-89 to Bird's choking resume. Why? Because, while Bird didn't play in his postseason with an injury, Chamberlain was only four months removed from major knee surgery. Not only that, he and West carried a heavy-underdog to a game seven against the heavily-favored Knicks (who had routed KAJ's 56-26 Bucks, 4-1 in the ECF's.) Oh and all Chamberlain could do in that series was put up the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA HISTORY (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.) Find me a series like that from your boy Bird. Much less in one in which he had no business playing.

72-73 Finals. After Chamberlain crushed Thurmond and his Warriors in the WCF's (the same Thurmond and Warriors team that wiped out Kareem and his 60-22 Bucks in the previous round) he them to the Finals, and they lost four close games, all with an injured West. Oh, and in Wilt's very last game of his career, he scored 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, and with 21 rebounds.

THAT was Chamberlain, "the Choker."

Only in ShaqisGOAT's world does taking a 40-40 team to a game seven, one point defeat against a 62-18 HOF-laden team, in a series in which Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and on a .555 FG% (while slaughtering Russell in every category including FT%)...is the equal of

Taking a 57-25 team down in flames in six games against a 54-28 team, in a series in which Bird averaged 19.8 ppg on a .351 FG%.

[LAZERUSS]

Eye opener... If you look at Wilt's numbers alone, it's pretty clear that he SHOULD be the greatest player of all time. However, there are very few people today who regard Wilt in this light.

Facts such as the one posted above have clearly affected Wilt's career to such a degree, that while many concede him to be the single most dominant player ever, he is rarely regarded as the ultimate winner. Players such as Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and even others seem to have surpassed Wilt in the conversation.

Wilt was a larger than life figure, a literal giant in the game. But he also had crucial weaknesses, and many of his contemporaries knew it and exploited it.

Research....


The idiotic Bill Simmons claims that Wilt "shrunk" in the post-season, particularly in BIG games.

Had he actually done any real research into Wilt's post-season career, he would have found that Wilt averaged 27.0 ppg in his 35 "must-win" and/or clinching games. Meanwhile, his starting opposing centers averaged 14.5 ppg in those 35 games. He also outscored his opposing starting center in 29 of those 35 games, including a 19-0 edge in his first 19 games of those 35. Furthermore, in his 13 games which came in his "scoring" seasons (from 59-60 thru 65-66), Chamberlain averaged 37.3 ppg in those "do-or-die" or clinching games. And there were MANY games in which he just CRUSHED his opposing centers in those games (e.g. he outscored Kerr in one them, 53-7.)

Wilt had THREE of his four 50+ point post-season games, in these "elimination games", including two in "at the limit" games, and another against Russell in a "must-win" game. He also had games of 46-34 and 45-27 (and only 4 months removed from major knee surgery) in these types of games. In addition he had games of 39 and 38 in clinching wins.

In the known 19 games in which we have both Wilt's, and his starting opposing center's rebounding numbers, Chamberlain outrebounded them in 15 of them, and by an average margin of 26.1 rpg to 18.9 rpg. And, had we had all 35 of the totals, it would have been by a considerably larger margin. A conservative estimate would put Wilt with at least a 30-5 overall edge in those 35 games. He also had games, even against the likes of Russell, and in "must-win" situations, where he just MURDERED his opposing centers (e.g. he had one clinching game, against Russell, in which he outrebounded him by a 36-21 margin.)

And finally, in the known FG% games in which we have, Chamberlain not only shot an eye-popping .582 in those "do-or-die" games, but he held his opposing centers to a combined .413 FG%. BTW, he played against Kareem in two "clinching" games, and held Abdul-Jabbar to a combined .383 shooting in those two games (23-60), while Wilt himself shot .545 (18-33.)

The bottom line, in the known games of the 35 that Wilt played in that involved a "must-win" or clincher, Wilt averaged 27 ppg, 26.1 rpg, and shot .582 (and the 27 ppg figure was known for all 35 of those games.)

And once again, Chamberlain played in 11 games which went to the series limit (nine game seven's, one game five of a best-of-five series, and one game three of a best-of-three series), and all he did was average 29.9 ppg (outscoring his opposing center by a 29.9 ppg to 9.8 ppg margin in the process), with 26.7 rpg, and on .581 shooting. Or he was an eye-lash away from averaging a 30-27 game, and on nearly .600 shooting, in those 11 "at the limit" games.




Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain's TEAMs went 24-11 in those 35 games, too.

That was the same player that Simmons basically labeled a "loser", and a "choker", and who "shrunk" in his BIG games.

[CavaliersFTW]

Eye opener... If you look at Wilt's numbers alone, it's pretty clear that he SHOULD be the greatest player of all time. However, there are very few people today who regard Wilt in this light.

Facts such as the one posted above have clearly affected Wilt's career to such a degree, that while many concede him to be the single most dominant player ever, he is rarely regarded as the ultimate winner. Players such as Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and even others seem to have surpassed Wilt in the conversation.

Wilt was a larger than life figure, a literal giant in the game. But he also had crucial weaknesses, and many of his contemporaries knew it and exploited it.
:no:

People who talk about his FT shooting % in regards to Wilt Chamberlain are ALL guilty of failing to understand it had less negative impact on his games than what you see at face value knowing what you know about free throws today.

Tell me, since you generally seem like a good poster. What is the huge advantage to fouling a guy who shoots 50, heck, even 40% from the line if the rules for shooting free throws at that time are 3 to make 2, and 2 to make 1?

Someone should do the math for this. I'm pretty sure his effectiveness at the line in his own era would be about analogous to someone shooting a significantly higher percentage today. He always had an extra chance at the line. His FT percentage won't tell you how many times he actually got points on possessions he was fouled.

[LAZERUSS]

Eye opener... If you look at Wilt's numbers alone, it's pretty clear that he SHOULD be the greatest player of all time. However, there are very few people today who regard Wilt in this light.

Facts such as the one posted above have clearly affected Wilt's career to such a degree, that while many concede him to be the single most dominant player ever, he is rarely regarded as the ultimate winner. Players such as Jordan, KAJ, Bird, Magic, and even others seem to have surpassed Wilt in the conversation.

Wilt was a larger than life figure, a literal giant in the game. But he also had crucial weaknesses, and many of his contemporaries knew it and exploited it.

Research...


Ok, here are the known numbers in Wilt's "must-win" playoff games (elimination games), and clinching game performances (either deciding winning or losing games), of BOTH Chamberlain, and his starting opposing centers in those games.

1. Game three of a best-of-three series in the first round of the 59-60 playoffs against Syracuse, a 132-112 win. Wilt with 53 points, on 24-42 shooting, with 22 rebounds. His opposing center, Red Kerr, who was a multiple all-star in his career, had 7 points.

2. Game five of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, a 128-107 win. Chamberlain had 50 points, on 22-42 shooting, with 35 rebounds. His opposing center, Russell, had 22 points and 27 rebounds.

3. Game six of the 59-60 ECF's against Boston, in a 119-117 loss. Wilt had a 26-24 game, while Russell had a 25-25 game.

4. Game three of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 60-61 playoffs , and against Syracuse, in a 106-103 loss. Chamberlain with 33 points, while his opposing center, the 7-3 Swede Halbrook, scored 6 points.

5. Game five of a best-of-five series in the first round of the 61-62 playoffs, against Syracuse, in a 121-104 win. Chamberlain had 56 points, on 22-48 shooting, with 35 rebounds. Kerr had 20 points in the loss.

6. Game six of the 61-62 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 109-99 win. Wilt with 32 points and 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points and 22 rebounds in the loss.

7. Game seven of the 61-62 ECF's, against Boston, in a 109-107 loss. Wilt with 22 points, on 7-15 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Russell had 19 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the win.

8. Game seven of the 63-64 WCF's, and against St. Louis, in a 105-95 win. Wilt with 39 points, 26 rebounds, and 10 blocks. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty, who would go on to become a multiple all-star, had 10 points in the loss.

9. Game five of the 63-64 Finals, and against Boston, in a 105-99 loss. Chamberlain with 30 points and 27 rebounds. Russell had 14 points and 26 points in the win.

10. Game four of a best-of-five series in the 64-65 first round of the playoffs against Cincinnati, a 119-112 win. Chamberlain with 38 points. His opposing center, multiple all-star (and HOFer) Wayne Embry had 7 points in the loss.

11. Game six of the 64-65 ECF's, against Boston, a 112-106 win. Chamberlain with a 30-26 game. Russell with a 22-21 game in the loss.

12. Game seven of the 64-65 ECF's, and against Boston, a 110-109 loss. Wilt with 30 points, on 12-15 shooting, with 32 rebounds. Russell had 15 points, on 7-16 shooting, with 29 rebounds in the win.

13. Game five of a best-of-seven series, in the 65-66 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 120-112 loss. Wilt had 46 points, on 19-34 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 18 points and 31 rebounds in the win.

14. Game four of a best-of-five series, in the first round of the 66-67 playoffs, and against Cincinnati, a 112-94 win. Wilt with 18 points, on 7-14 shooting, with 27 rebounds and 9 assists. His opposing center, Connie Dierking, had 8 points, on 4-14 shooting, with 4 rebounds in the loss.

15. Game five of the 66-67 ECF's, and against Boston, in a 140-116 win. Chamberlain with 29 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 36 rebounds, 13 assists, and 7 blocks. Russell had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 21 rebounds, and 7 assists in the loss.

16. Game six of the 66-67 Finals, and against San Francisco, in a 125-122 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 8-13 shooting, with 23 rebounds. His oppsoing center, HOFer Nate Thurmond, had 12 points, on 4-13 shooting, with 22 rebounds in the loss.

17. Game six of the first round of the 67-68 playoffs, against NY, in a 113-97 win. Wilt had 25 points, and 27 rebounds. His opposing center, HOFer Walt Bellamy, had 19 points in the loss.

18. Game seven of the 67-68 ECF's, against Boston, in a 100-96 loss. Wilt with 14 points, on 4-9 shooting, with 34 rebounds. Russell had 12 points and 26 rebounds in the win.

19. Game six of the first round of the 68-69 playoffs, against San Francisco, in a 118-78 win. Wilt with 11 points. Thurmond had 8 points in the loss.

20. Game four of the 68-69 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Chamberlain with 16 points. His opposing center, Zelmo Beaty had 30 points in the loss.

21. Game seven of the 68-69 Finals, against Boston, in a 108-106 loss. Chamberlain had 18 points, on 7-8 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Russell had 6 points, on 2-7 shooting, with 21 rebounds in the win.

22. Game five of a best-of-seven series (the Lakers were down 3-1 going into the game) in the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, and against Phoenix, a 138-121 win. Wilt with 36 points and 14 rebounds. His opposing center, Neal Walk, had 18 points in the loss.

23. Game six of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, in a 104-93 win. Wilt with 12 points. Jim Fox started that game for Phoenix, and had 13 points in the loss.

24. Game seven of the first round of the 69-70 playoffs, against Phoenix, and in a 129-94 win, which capped a 4-3 series win after falling behind 3-1 in the series. Wilt with 30 points, 27 rebounds, and 11 blocks. Fox had 7 points in the loss.

25. Game four of the 69-70 WCF's, against Atlanta, in a 133-114 sweeping win. Wilt with 11 points. Bellamy had 19 points in the loss.

26. Game six of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 135-113 win. Wilt with 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds. Nate Bowman had 18 points, on 9-15 shooting, with 8 rebounds in the loss.

27. Game seven of the 69-70 Finals, against NY, in a 113-99 loss. Wilt with 21 points, on 10-16 shooting, with 24 rebounds. HOFer Willis Reed had 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds in the win.

28. Game seven of the first round of the 70-71 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 109-98 win. Wilt with 25 points and 18 rebounds. 7-0 Tom Boerwinkle had 4 points for the Bulls in the loss.

29. Game five of the 70-71 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 116-94 loss. Wilt had 23 points, on 10-21 shooting, with 12 rebounds, 6 blocks (5 of them on Alcindor/Kareem.) Kareem had 20 points, on 7-23 shooting, with 15 rebounds, and 3 blocks in the win. Incidently, Wilt received a standing ovation when he left the game late...and the game was played in Milwaukee.

30. Game four of the 71-72 first round of the playoffs, against Chicago, in a 108-97 sweeping win. Wilt had 8 points and 31 rebounds. Clifford Ray had 20 points in the loss.

31. Game six of the 71-72 WCF's, against Milwaukee, in a 104-100 win. Chamberlain with 20 points, on 8-12 shooting, with 24 rebounds, and 9 blocks (six against Kareem.) Kareem had 37 points, on 16-37 shooting, with 25 rebounds in the loss.

32. Game five of the 71-72 Finals, against NY, in a 114-100 win. Chamberlain with 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 9 blocks. HOFer Jerry Lucas had 14 points, on 5-14 shooting, with 9 rebounds in the loss.

33. Game seven of the first round of the 72-73 playoffs, against Chicago, in a 95-92 win. Wilt with 21 points and 28 rebounds. His opposing center, Clifford Ray, had 4 points.

34. Game five of the 72-73 WCF's, and against Golden St., in a 128-118 win. Wilt with 5 points. Thurmond had 9 points in the loss.

35. Game five of the 72-73 Finals, against NY, in a 102-93 loss. Wilt with 23 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 21 rebounds. Willis Reed had 18 points, on 9-16 shooting, with 12 rebounds.

That was it. 35 "must-win" elimination and/or clinching post-season games.

THAT was Wilt "the CHOKER."

[LAZERUSS]

:no:

People who talk about his FT shooting % in regards to Wilt Chamberlain are ALL guilty of failing to understand it had less negative impact on his games than what you see at face value knowing what you know about free throws today.

Tell me, since you generally seem like a good poster. What is the huge advantage to fouling a guy who shoots 50, heck, even 40% from the line if the rules for shooting free throws at that time are 3 to make 2, and 2 to make 1?

Someone should do the math for this. I'm pretty sure his effectiveness at the line in his own era would be about analogous to someone shooting a significantly higher percentage today. He always had an extra chance at the line. His FT percentage won't tell you how many times he actually got points on possessions he was fouled.

Not only that, but Chamberlain's teams dramatically OUTSCORED their opponents from LINE in his regular season, post-season, and Finals, career.

Just using his 35 Finals games, his team's OUTSCORED their opponents from the LINE, by a 26-6-3 margin.

His teams also routinely led the NBA in FTA MADE during the regular season. In fact, his 66-67 Sixers were LIGHT YEARS ahead of the next best team.

And how about this example...

Chamberlain's 68-69 Lakers led the league in FTA. And in that post-season, they again led in FTA and FTM. The Celtics actually had the team lead going into the Finals against Chamberlain's Lakers. Wilt's Lakers outscored them from the line by 22 points in that series.

THEN, in the 69-70 regular season, Wilt was injured in game nine, and missed nearly the entire season. Guess what? LA finished 12th in a 14 team league, in FTA. BUT, Chamberlain returned for the post-season, and the Lakers scored 93 more points than any other team in that post-season. And in the Finals, they outscored the Knicks by 50 points from the line.

[wildchild]

Congratulations LAZERUSS. You've won the best Wilt Chamberlain nut hugger award. You researched so hard to defend the man you love. Good job!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3723ee6a2d457f1b53384c0129ea59b7/tumblr_mgl2h9GVV81rwnim2o1_500.gif

[Dr.J4ever]

Unlike Jordan, or Bill Russel, whose teams enjoyed unprecedented playoff success, Wilt's legacy seems a lot more complicated. Judging from posts on the pro-side, and the legitimate Wilt deniers(not the trolls), both have facts that are undeniable by either side of the debate. Both even have 1st hand witnesses who are experts who disagree about Wilt.

If Wilt went to 6 Finals, and won them all as FMVP, there would be no question. But Wilt was a legend, with a legacy worthy of debate for a generation. While Wilt had his expected dominant performances in the Playoffs, he also had his share of clunkers, and outright perplexing outings.

Was Wilt a choker? No, that is such a strong word not worthy to be used with a legend like Wilt. Did many opposing teams that Wilt faced figure him out during crucial games or stretches of games enough for them to defeat the most dominant player of all time? Yes, this is really undeniable.

[Psileas]

The more the usual suspects target Wilt the more apparent it becomes how bothered they become by negative myths on Wilt being exposed. And the more apparent it becomes that Wilt is a legit GOAT candidate.
If I had the lives to spare, I'd write a choking resume of Bird due to bad defense or inefficient shooting, Magic's choking resume due to defense (plus the '81+'84 lost series - I dare anyone to find Wilt have as grave choking moments in any series), Kareem's choking resume due to being unable to shoot efficiently vs Thurmond or Wilt, Jordan's choking resume due to shooting ineffectively vs some elite defenses, let's even mention Kobe (he's not a GOAT candidate) etc.


Unlike Jordan, or Bill Russel, whose teams enjoyed unprecedented playoff success, Wilt's legacy seems a lot more complicated. Judging from posts on the pro-side, and the legitimate Wilt deniers(not the trolls), both have facts that are undeniable by either side of the debate. Both even have 1st hand witnesses who are experts who disagree about Wilt.

If Wilt went to 6 Finals, and won them all as FMVP, there would be no question. But Wilt was a legend, with a legacy worthy of debate for a generation. While Wilt had his expected dominant performances in the Playoffs, he also had his share of clunkers, and outright perplexing outings.

Was Wilt a choker? No, that is such a strong word not worthy to be used with a legend like Wilt. Did many opposing teams that Wilt faced figure him out during crucial games or stretches of games enough for them to defeat the most dominant player of all time? Yes, this is really undeniable.

No, not really. There have been only 4 teams that ever beat Wilt in a series, and only 1 that did so on a constant basis.
There has overall been only 1 team that ever beat Wilt and did NOT win the title and this is something that, with the exception of the GOAT winner himself, has not been true for any other GOAT or "weak GOAT" candidate in history. A testament that only a selected few teams could beat Wilt's teams, even the less dominant ones. Wilt never lost to the Royals, to the Hawks, to the Suns, to the Bulls, to the Warriors, etc. He lost only once to the Nats. He's 2-2 vs the Knicks, 1-1 vs the Bucks and has a negative record vs only the Celtics. There wasn't any magical playoff filter that made teams figure Wilt out. Just the most durable dynasty ever and a couple of historically strong or deep teams ('70, '72 Knicks, '71 Bucks) that drastically removed Wilt's title chances and would probably do so for any other great that would be in his position. Great playoff performers who played in the same era, like West, Oscar, Baylor or Pettit or even young Kareem didn't even manage to match Wilt's playoff resume, which further enhances my point.

[Psileas]

Congratulations LAZERUSS. You've won the best Wilt Chamberlain nut hugger award. You researched so hard to defend the man you love. Good job!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/3723ee6a2d457f1b53384c0129ea59b7/tumblr_mgl2h9GVV81rwnim2o1_500.gif

Yeah, I'd have said the same crap if my arguments had been as thoroughly defeated. I feel you.

[Marlo_Stanfield]

OP is a quite disgusting Kobe loverboy:biggums:

[LAZERUSS]

For those that claimed that somehow Bird was more clutch...

Wilt's "HOF" "help" in the post-season:


Playoff FG%'s...

'60 Arizin .431 Gola .412
'61 Arizin .325 Gola .206
'62 Arizin .375 Gola .271
'63 Gola...played 21 games and was shipped out
'64 Thurmond .438
'65 Greer .455 Walker .480
'66 Greer .352 Cunningham .161 Walker .375
'67 Greer .429 Walker .467 Cunningham .376
'68 Greer .432 Walker .410 Cunningham broke wrist in first round (played 3 games)
'69 West .469 Baylor .385
'70 West .469 Baylor .466
'71 West and Baylor...both injured and do not play in playoffs. Goodrich .425
'72 Baylor retires after 9 nine games. West .376. Goodrich .445
'73 West .449 Goodrch .448

'62 Meschery was NOT an all-star. Shoots .397 in playoffs.
'63 Meschery (* All Star. Played 64 games. 16 ppg .425 FG% during season.)
'63 Rodgers (shoots .387 in regular season.
'64 Rodgers .329 in post-season.
'65 Jackson .338 in playoffs.

Then how about this:


Now, how about this (and I am only posting Boston's total eFG% in those post-seasons, instead of taking the time to break down Bird's eFG% and his teammates, but clearly, the difference would have been even more dramatic had I done so)

Playoff eFG%'s...

79-80:
Bird: .480
Boston: .487
League: .476

80-81:
Bird: .474
Boston: .484
League: .473

81-82:
Bird: .430
Boston: .465
League: .476

82-83:
Bird: .427
Boston: .442
League: .484

83-84:
Bird: .532
Boston: .478
League: .487

84-85:
Bird: .469
Boston: .491
League: .497

85-86:
Bird: .551
Boston: .521
League: .497

86-87:
Bird: .491
Boston: .517
League: .495

87-88:
Bird: .467
Boston: .491
League: .488

89-90:
Bird: .470
Boston: .558
League: .490

90-91:
Bird: .418
Boston: .501
League: .492

91-92:
Bird: .500
Boston: .502
League: .492


And then how about this:


Now the next set of numbers are Wilt's playoff eFG%'s, his teammates (collectively and without Wilt), and the post-season league averages.

59-60:
Wilt: .496
Team: .380
League: .402

60-61:
Wilt: .469
Team: .332
League: .403

61-62:
Wilt: .467
Team: .354
League: .411

63-64:
Wilt: .543
Team: .383
League: .420

64-65:
Wilt: .530
Team: .413
League: .429

65-66:
Wilt: .509
Team: .352
League: .440

66-67:
Wilt: .579
Team: .428
League: .424

67-68:
Wilt: .534
Team: .416
League: .446

68-69:
Wilt: .545
Team: .421
League: .431

69-70:
Wilt: .549
Team: .469
League: .455

70-71:
Wilt: .455
Team: .446
League: .445

71-72:
Wilt: .563
Team: .414
League: .439

72-73:
Wilt: .552
Team: .446
League: .451

[LAZERUSS]

The above is just amazing.

In Wilt's rookie season, he inherited a LAST-PLACE team. And in his first six seasons, his rosters got progressively worse. Still, he single-handedly kept those teams in the playoff hunt, and almost won TWO titles with virtually no help.

And even in his two title seasons, his teammates didn't shoot well, either (although his '67 team shot .428 in a post-season that shot .424.) His second ring was even more remarkable. The '72 Lakers went 12-3 in their post-season, with Wilt's teammates collectively shooting .413, in a post-season that shot .439.

There was never one season in his career, in which his teammates collectively stepped up. And yet, he won TWO rings, and lost FIVE game seven's to the eventual champion, FOUR of which were by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points.

[trueDS]

For those that claimed that somehow Bird was more clutch...

Wilt's "HOF" "help" in the post-season:



Then how about this:



And then how about this:


Bird was ultimate team player and simply made others better. Wilt on the other hand was more selfish, didn't move ball so well, wasn't quick with his decision making, wasted many time on possessions - no wonder his teammates were out of rhythm and played bad. Similar case to Adrian Dantley.

[Dr.J4ever]

Bird was ultime team player and simply made others better. Wilt on the other hand was more selfish, didn't move ball so well, wasn't quick with his decision making, wasted many time on possessions - no wonder his teammates were out of rhythm and played bad. Similar case to Adrian Dantley.
Dantley never won anything and Iverson was very much that type of player. AI would shoot so much that towards the end of games, no one else had any confidence shooting. Every year, people said--let's get AI better teammates. We got Stackhouse, Coleman, Kukoch, Glenn Robinson who were all good scorers and players in their own right, but every one of them was scared to death of AI and missing shots.

At least AI got us to the Finals one year with a defensive team of players that had no other significant scorer. Not good enough, which was predictable.

The lesson---winning trumps everything, including stats. At the end of the day, the best players are the players that can create an environment or culture of winning. Everything else comes second, and are just means to an end.

[SexSymbol]

How do you even circle jerk this guy for more than a week is beyond me. Yeah, those discussions are interesting one or two times. When you get involved in the same stuff so often, you're just retarded.
TL;DR Jlauber is a ****ing retard.
And what's beyond me too is that whenever you bring up his biggest ppg drop from reg.season to PO in NBA history, they always bring up some irrelevant stuff like close out games or stats from a few series.
TL;DR2 Jlauber is a ****ing retard

[LAZERUSS]

Bird was ultimate team player and simply made others better. Wilt on the other hand was more selfish, didn't move ball so well, wasn't quick with his decision making, wasted many time on possessions - no wonder his teammates were out of rhythm and played bad. Similar case to Adrian Dantley.


Interesting take, and completely false.

Players like Gola, Greer, Goodrich...all had their best REGULAR seasons playing WITH Wilt. And you could make an argument that Wilt didn't affect West AT ALL. Hell, West had perhaps his greatest post-season, WITH Chamberlain, in 68-69. In fact, how about this: In the 69-70 season, Wilt was asked by his COACH, Joe Mullaney, to become the focal point of the Laker offense (after the Van Breda Kolff disaster of 68-69.) Chamberlain responded by averaging 32.2 ppg (on a .579 FG%) in his first nine games, before shredding his knee. In that same span, West was averaging 30.8 ppg. Wilt missed the next 70 games, and West went on to lead the NBA in scoring at 31.2 ppg.

Nope. MANY of Wilt's teammates had their best seasons, WITH, Chamberlain, and in the cases of other's, like Arizin, who was nearing the end, Chamberlain's presence didn't affect his stats much at all. And BTW, both Mel Counts and Willie Naulls, played considerably better WITH Wilt, than they did with RUSSELL.

The problem was, the POST-SEASON, and with Chamberlain deferring more in them, his teammates performances declined DRAMATICALLY. There is no better an example of that, than Chamberlain's 65-66 season (which, along with his 66-67 season, were probably the two most dominating seasons, against ALL peers, of all-time by a center.) During the regular season, the Sixers went 6-3 against Boston. And, in those nine games, Chamberlain averaged 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, and probably about 4 apg, and on a very educated estimate of about a .525 FG%.

In the '65-66 EDF's, Boston blew out Philly, 4-1. And in that series, Wilt dominated Russell in the first four games (hell, newspaper accounts claimed that Wilt, in his lowest scoring game of that series, alsmot single-handedly won the game)...and in game five, he shelled Russell with a 46-34 game. Overall, Wilt averaged 28.0 ppg, 30.2 rpg,, 3.2 apg, and on a .509 FG%. As for that apg...how about this...his teammates collectively shot (again, from a team with the best record in the league)... .352 from the field! Wilt's numbers were nearly identical, but his teammates, as they most often did, just puked all over the floor.

I could go for nearly every post-season in Wilt's career. Arizin and Gola putting up playoff series in which they shot .375, .325, and .271 and .206 respectively, in their three post-seasons with Wilt. Or West, who had played so brilliantly in the '69 Finals, shooting .376 in the '72 post-season (but Chamberlain overcame it, and carried LA to a title anyway.) Player-after-player just gagged.

And still, with virtually very little help, Chamberlain carried two putrid rosters, who would be even worse in the post-season, to within an eyelash of beating the greatest dynasty in history of the sport, in '62 and '65. No other all-time great has even taken so little, so far, and against such overwhelming odds, as Wilt did in those years (as well as '60, and '64.)

[LAZERUSS]

Dantley never won anything and Iverson was very much that type of player. AI would shoot so much that towards the end of games, no one else had any confidence shooting. Every year, people said--let's get AI better teammates. We got Stackhouse, Coleman, Kukoch, Glenn Robinson who were all good scorers and players in their own right, but every one of them was scared to death of AI and missing shots.

At least AI got us to the Finals one year with a defensive team of players that had no other significant scorer. Not good enough, which was predictable.

The lesson---winning trumps everything, including stats. At the end of the day, the best players are the players that can create an environment or culture of winning. Everything else comes second, and are just means to an end.

At the end of the day, the best TEAM usually wins. Just ask MJ in his first six seasons in the league. Or how about a prime KAJ struggling to even to to the playoffs, where he was usually sent packing in the early rounds. Or KG, who played magnificently for so many seasons, but with scrubs, and then when paired up with good teammates, goes 66-16 and wins a ring.

And, NO ONE, did more, with less, than Chamberlain in his first six seasons in the league...especially when you factor in that he was battling the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA.

[Dr.J4ever]

At the end of the day, the best TEAM usually wins. Just ask MJ in his first six seasons in the league. Or how about a prime KAJ struggling to even to to the playoffs, where he was usually sent packing in the early rounds. Or KG, who played magnificently for so many seasons, but with scrubs, and then when paired up with good teammates, goes 66-16 and wins a ring.

And, NO ONE, did more, with less, than Chamberlain in his first six seasons in the league...especially when you factor in that he was battling the greatest dynasty in the history of the NBA.
Can't disagree that the best teams usually wins. With one caveat, the best teams USUALLY have the best players. In basketball, one player can have a tremendous effect that can cascade down the entire lineup.. As you said, Wilt's presence alone gave a bunch of scrubs a fighting chance every year.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Added a little bit.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Exclusive copy of Mikan's Choking Resume:

http://janemcmaster.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/blank-page-challenge.jpg

[sd3035]

Wilt GOAT choker :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Exclusive copy of Mikan's Choking Resume:

http://janemcmaster.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/blank-page-challenge.jpg
:applause:

[Stringer Bell]

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)



Wilt....unable to dominate a cripple in Reed. And then he blames Jerry West for the 1970 finals and claims that Frazier always kicked West's ass.

Celtics had no business winning in 69'.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt....unable to dominate a cripple in Reed. And then he blames Jerry West for the 1970 finals and claims that Frazier always kicked West's ass.

Celtics had no business winning in 69'.

Chamberlain was four months removed from major knee surgery. Virtually NO ONE else would have been playing at all, much less as well as he did. His FT shooting in game seven had NO bearing on the result...at all. And he murdered Reed in that game seven. And, for the series, a one-legged Wilt put up the ONLY 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on a .625 FG%.)

And West was crushed by Frazier in that game seven of the '70 Finals.

[Stringer Bell]

Aww...West got outplayed in one game by being outscored 36-28 against the best PG of the 70s. Recorded total of 19 assists is questionable. West still scores 31 PPG. Wilt of course throws West under the bus.

Kind of like how West played so well in the 1969 finals (38 PPG) that he won finals MVP despite LA losing.

Lakers lose game 3 by 6 with Wilt scoring 16, going 4-11 from the line. LA loses game 4 by 1 with Wilt scoring 8 Pts, going 2 of 11 from the line. 42 years later, bron will put up an equally stinky game 4.

Chamberlain scores 9 in a game 6 loss, although he does make a remarkable 60% of his FTs :oldlol:

Then the Lakers blow game 7 at home, wasting West's 42, 12, and 13 masterpiece. Boston wins by 2. Wilt goes 4 of 13 from the line.

And then West throws Chamberlain under the.....oh wait, he doesn't try to shift the blame to his teammate like Wilt does.

Then again, it was all b/c of the coach and Wilt's injury. After all, West was completely fresh and injury and pain-free.

[StephHamann]

Aww...West got outplayed in one game by being outscored 36-28 against the best PG of the 70s. Recorded total of 19 assists is questionable. West still scores 31 PPG. Wilt of course throws West under the bus.

Kind of like how West played so well in the 1969 finals (38 PPG) that he won finals MVP despite LA losing.

Lakers lose game 3 by 6 with Wilt scoring 16, going 4-11 from the line. LA loses game 4 by 1 with Wilt scoring 8 Pts, going 2 of 11 from the line. 42 years later, bron will put up an equally stinky game 4.

Chamberlain scores 9 in a game 6 loss, although he does make a remarkable 60% of his FTs :oldlol:

Then the Lakers blow game 7 at home, wasting West's 42, 12, and 13 masterpiece. Boston wins by 2. Wilt goes 4 of 13 from the line.

And then West throws Chamberlain under the.....oh wait, he doesn't try to shift the blame to his teammate like Wilt does.

Then again, it was all b/c of the coach and Wilt's injury. After all, West was completely fresh and injury and pain-free.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6OdeJ5lFV84/Tzp3DFb__hI/AAAAAAAAAyE/Fz2NlpTLMtQ/s320/dis-gon-b-gud.gif

[Stringer Bell]

This is the PURE IMAGE OF CHOKING:

Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5


Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Karl Malone's playoff and finals offensive production didn't drop nearly as much as Wilt's.

And that includes when the Failman Hebephile Deadbeat Dad was an injured 40-something year old man, accounting for a third of his finals appearances.

[Stringer Bell]

Dantley never won anything and Iverson was very much that type of player. AI would shoot so much that towards the end of games, no one else had any confidence shooting. Every year, people said--let's get AI better teammates. We got Stackhouse, Coleman, Kukoch, Glenn Robinson who were all good scorers and players in their own right, but every one of them was scared to death of AI and missing shots.

At least AI got us to the Finals one year with a defensive team of players that had no other significant scorer. Not good enough, which was predictable.

The lesson---winning trumps everything, including stats. At the end of the day, the best players are the players that can create an environment or culture of winning. Everything else comes second, and are just means to an end.

Iverson had such a tough style to work with. In addition to his reputation as a hard partier/lazy practice player and difficult personality, he was so ball dominant and not very efficient. He did draw lots of defensive attention and get to the line a lot, but I find him to be a hard player to rank. The 2001 Sixers get underrated, they were very good defensively and had the right type of unselfish role players to do their jobs while AI hoisted up a hundred shots per night.

[LAZERUSS]

Aww...West got outplayed in one game by being outscored 36-28 against the best PG of the 70s. Recorded total of 19 assists is questionable. West still scores 31 PPG. Wilt of course throws West under the bus.

Kind of like how West played so well in the 1969 finals (38 PPG) that he won finals MVP despite LA losing.

Lakers lose game 3 by 6 with Wilt scoring 16, going 4-11 from the line. LA loses game 4 by 1 with Wilt scoring 8 Pts, going 2 of 11 from the line. 42 years later, bron will put up an equally stinky game 4.

Chamberlain scores 9 in a game 6 loss, although he does make a remarkable 60% of his FTs :oldlol:

Then the Lakers blow game 7 at home, wasting West's 42, 12, and 13 masterpiece. Boston wins by 2. Wilt goes 4 of 13 from the line.

And then West throws Chamberlain under the.....oh wait, he doesn't try to shift the blame to his teammate like Wilt does.

Then again, it was all b/c of the coach and Wilt's injury. After all, West was completely fresh and injury and pain-free.

You have repeatedly made the claim that Wilt "threw West under the bus." Can you give us the ENTIRE quote, or article, that that was from?

I have read Wilt's own book, and he merely stated the truth...that Frazier whipped West's ass in game seven. And why did Wilt mention that FACT? Because it was WILT who was being blamed for that game seven loss, despite the fact that he shelled Reed that game. Reed was essentially a statute who had a ton of help almost every time Wilt got the ball, and who fouled him four times in the 27 minutes he played when he didn't.

In the meantime, West couldn't even get the ball past half-court on several occasions in the first half alone, and Frazier just torched him the entire game. And while you are quick to point out West's injuries, you NEVER bring up the FACT that Wilt was nowhere near 100% in that entire series. There is YouTube footage of that game seven, and also of the clinching game five in the '72 Finals. In the game seven from '70, Wilt runs stiff-legged, and has virtually no vertical. Two years later, Chamberlain is completely dominating the game at both ends, and not only blocked eight shots, he was called for a very questionable goal-tend on one in which his fingertips were above the square.

[Psileas]

Karl Malone's playoff and finals offensive production didn't drop nearly as much as Wilt's.

And that includes when the Failman Hebephile Deadbeat Dad was an injured 40-something year old man, accounting for a third of his finals appearances.

With 1 big difference between them (and also Wilt and Robinson): Malone in the playoffs was routinely failing to duplicate figures he could manage during the regular season against the very same opponent. Wilt was pretty steady when comparing his playoff production to his regular season production against the same teams. Wilt's scoring numbers in the playoffs would slip when he faced elite, all-time level defenders. Malone's scoring numbers (especially his FG%'s) would slip regardless of opponent.

Plus the obvious fact that Malone's scoring role only changed dramatically during his last season.

[LAZERUSS]

Had ANYONE ELSE, other than Wilt, come back from major knee surgery and in only four months, and put up a game seven of 21-24, and a series of 23-24-.625, and they would still be praising him today.

[LAZERUSS]

With 1 big difference between them (and also Wilt and Robinson): Malone in the playoffs was routinely failing to duplicate figures he could manage during the regular season against the very same opponent. Wilt was pretty steady when comparing his playoff production to his regular season production against the same teams. Wilt's scoring numbers in the playoffs would slip when he faced elite, all-time level defenders. Malone's scoring numbers (especially his FG%'s) would slip regardless of opponent.

Plus the obvious fact that Malone's scoring role only changed dramatically during his last season.

Not only that, but Wilt ELEVATED his rebounding in nearly every series in which he played, and in many, he DRAMATICALLY lowered the efficiency of his opposing centers.

And once again, the "bashers" always claim... "30 ppg down to 18" in his Finals....which is completely false. In those Finals' seasons, Wilt's scoring dropped from 22 ppg, down to 19 ppg...and in some, he raised his scoring against that same opposing center (Russell in '64, Reed in '70, and Lucas in '72.)

[Asukal]

Not only that, but Wilt ELEVATED his rebounding in nearly every series in which he played, and in many, he DRAMATICALLY lowered the efficiency of his opposing centers.

And once again, the "bashers" always claim... "30 ppg down to 18" in his Finals....which is completely false. In those Finals' seasons, Wilt's scoring dropped from 22 ppg, down to 19 ppg...and in some, he raised his scoring against that same opposing center (Russell in '64, Reed in '70, and Lucas in '72.)

Oh now it is false? Well your 19 ppg claim is also false because its 18.something. :facepalm

And of course you end your post with your classic "cherry pick a game where Wilt played well" and use it as an argument. :rolleyes:

FACT: Taking into account his WHOLE playoff career, Wilt's ppg dipped more than ANY other top 10 ATG. :oldlol:

[Stringer Bell]

Shows you the difference in wilt and Jerry's character.

Wilt claiming that the Lakers lost because "Walt kicked Jerry's ass like he always did", because he outscored West by a whopping 8 points in game 7. Walt, of course, says he outplayed him in that game but it was not a regular occurrence. The stats show that Frazier outplayed West in an amazing 2 out of 7 games.

Meanwhile, West plays with injuries and performs out of his mind in 69' and chamberlain wilts as usual, but West doesn't bash Chamberlain. Wilt being a serial excuse maker, just like some of his fans.

Chamberlain coming up short numerous times when it counts, missing FTs that would have been difference makers, and simply lacking those extra intangibles that someone like Russell and Jordan had.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a reason why Russell had 5.5 times as many rings as Chamberlain.

Oh wait, it's ALL because of the supporting casts. LOL

:roll:

You have repeatedly made the claim that Wilt "threw West under the bus." Can you give us the ENTIRE quote, or article, that that was from?

I have read Wilt's own book, and he merely stated the truth...that Frazier whipped West's ass in game seven. And why did Wilt mention that FACT? Because it was WILT who was being blamed for that game seven loss, despite the fact that he shelled Reed that game. Reed was essentially a statute who had a ton of help almost every time Wilt got the ball, and who fouled him four times in the 27 minutes he played when he didn't.

In the meantime, West couldn't even get the ball past half-court on several occasions in the first half alone, and Frazier just torched him the entire game. And while you are quick to point out West's injuries, you NEVER bring up the FACT that Wilt was nowhere near 100% in that entire series. There is YouTube footage of that game seven, and also of the clinching game five in the '72 Finals. In the game seven from '70, Wilt runs stiff-legged, and has virtually no vertical. Two years later, Chamberlain is completely dominating the game at both ends, and not only blocked eight shots, he was called for a very questionable goal-tend on one in which his fingertips were above the square.

[Psileas]

Wilt claiming that the Lakers lost because "Walt kicked Jerry's ass like he always did", because he outscored West by a whopping 8 points in game 7. Walt, of course, says he outplayed him in that game but it was not a regular occurrence. The stats show that Frazier outplayed West in an amazing 2 out of 7 games.

I found this to be an inappropriate statement. But he did it at least partially because he was annoyed with people putting all the blame for the loss on him. How can you do so when a team loses in a blowout game? Unless Wilt had something like a 0/0/0/15 TO game, there were definitely more things going on, and people convincingly left them out. One of them was Frazier having the game of his life against West, not just outscoring him (which he wasn't supposed to do in the first place), but annoying him defensively as well, stealing the ball from him repeatedly, etc. You know, the kind of game that, if Russell had one such against Wilt in the Finals, we wouldn't be hearing the end of it.


Meanwhile, West plays with injuries and performs out of his mind in 69' and chamberlain wilts as usual, but West doesn't bash Chamberlain. Wilt being a serial excuse maker, just like some of his fans.

I don't remember anyone bashing Wilt back then for his performances, including his coach, except Russell, who was under the impression that Wilt faked his injury - and he later revised, as well (so, even he didn't critisize his performances themselves).

[LAZERUSS]

Shows you the difference in wilt and Jerry's character.

Wilt claiming that the Lakers lost because "Walt kicked Jerry's ass like he always did", because he outscored West by a whopping 8 points in game 7. Walt, of course, says he outplayed him in that game but it was not a regular occurrence. The stats show that Frazier outplayed West in an amazing 2 out of 7 games.

Meanwhile, West plays with injuries and performs out of his mind in 69' and chamberlain wilts as usual, but West doesn't bash Chamberlain. Wilt being a serial excuse maker, just like some of his fans.

Chamberlain coming up short numerous times when it counts, missing FTs that would have been difference makers, and simply lacking those extra intangibles that someone like Russell and Jordan had.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, but there's a reason why Russell had 5.5 times as many rings as Chamberlain.

Oh wait, it's ALL because of the supporting casts. LOL

:roll:

Chamberlain NEVER said "like he ALWAYS did." Nor did he blame WEST for the game seven loss, either. He merely pointed out the fact that Frazier's game against West had FAR more to do with that loss, than Reed's play (TEAM play actually) against Wilt. And he made the comments because there were those at the time, blaming WILT for that loss.

And Chamberlain "coming up short NUMEROUS times" is pure B.S. and even YOU know it. Sure he had his FT troubles, but Shaq won four rings shooting nearly as bad (and one in which he shot .392), and Russell won 11 with SEVERAL well-below average playoff runs.

I get a kick out of the "bashers" who claim that I "cherry-pick" my stats and games, and yet these same clowns have to go out of their way to find games, or even MOMENTS in games, in which Wilt played poorly. Hell, historically Wilt's WORST playoff games usually had him with 20+ rebounds, and almost always statistically outplaying his opposing center (again, most all of whom are in the HOF.) Deuce even found Wilt putting up ONE rather poor game (by Chamberlain's standards) in his '65 series against Russell. In a series in which Wilt single-handedly carried what had been a roster that couldn't make the playoffs the year before, without him, and only went 21-20 with him during the regular season...to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 Celtics at the peak of the dynasty run. In a series in which Chamberlain just CRUSHED Russell.

Again, I can find a TON of playoff games in which Bird, or even Kareem, shot poorly from the field. In fact, those two had FAR more post-season "choke jobs" than Wilt ever had. Yet the "bashers" will find the most miniscule reason to blame Wilt for his playoff "failures."

As for "SUPPORTING casts", it was not merely the FACT that Wilt OFTEN played with poor supporting casts, but that they were almost always outgunned by opposing teams, most noticeably the HOF-laden Celtics. And, of course, I have also shown that not only were Wilt's "supporting casts" outgunned, they almost always played considerably worse than they did in their regular seasons, as well. Just as an example...I could only find TWO reasonably fullt-time players, in Wilt's entire post-season career, who had a playoff run of shooting 50%+ from the floor.

In the VAST majority of Wilt's post-season career (nearly all of them), his "supporting casts" shot worse than the post-season league average, and in SEVERAL they were WAY below the league average. And he STILL took a couple of them to within an eyelash of beating the eventual champion on two occasions. He even won a title in '72, with his teammates collectively shooting .414 from the floor in their 15 playoff games (12 wins BTW.) And his best teammate, West, shot .376 in that playoff run, including .325 in the Finals.

The reality was, it was simply amazing that Wilt was routinely taking his team's as far as he did. But the "bashers" always blindly point out "just two rings." And yet, a PRIME Kareem accomplished considerably less, in almost every aspect of the game. It wasn't until he played with Magic (and Worthy) that he would add five more rings. Not a knock on KAJ, because he was basically doing all he could, as well...but it is an odd double-standard, don't you agree?

[Psileas]

And I should add here:


In a series in which Wilt single-handedly carried what had been a roster that couldn't make the playoffs the year before, without him, and only went 21-20 with him during the regular season...to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 Celtics at the peak of the dynasty run. In a series in which Chamberlain just CRUSHED Russell.

...and all this came after a series when Wilt:
1) beat a team without HCA (choker you said?)
2) hit the game winning FT's in a game when he had 4-16 up to then (oh, wait, choker again...)
3) had a triple double in another
4) closed the series with a 38/26/11 block performance (choker!)
and
5) this was still a below his standards series, since he was playing a big part of it with a stomach ailment. He got even better against the Celtics.

[Stringer Bell]

Chamberlain NEVER said "like he ALWAYS did." Nor did he blame WEST for the game seven loss, either. He merely pointed out the fact that Frazier's game against West had FAR more to do with that loss, than Reed's play (TEAM play actually) against Wilt. And he made the comments because there were those at the time, blaming WILT for that loss.

And Chamberlain "coming up short NUMEROUS times" is pure B.S. and even YOU know it. Sure he had his FT troubles, but Shaq won four rings shooting nearly as bad (and one in which he shot .392), and Russell won 11 with SEVERAL well-below average playoff runs.

I get a kick out of the "bashers" who claim that I "cherry-pick" my stats and games, and yet these same clowns have to go out of their way to find games, or even MOMENTS in games, in which Wilt played poorly. Hell, historically Wilt's WORST playoff games usually had him with 20+ rebounds, and almost always statistically outplaying his opposing center (again, most all of whom are in the HOF.) Deuce even found Wilt putting up ONE rather poor game (by Chamberlain's standards) in his '65 series against Russell. In a series in which Wilt single-handedly carried what had been a roster that couldn't make the playoffs the year before, without him, and only went 21-20 with him during the regular season...to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 Celtics at the peak of the dynasty run. In a series in which Chamberlain just CRUSHED Russell.

Again, I can find a TON of playoff games in which Bird, or even Kareem, shot poorly from the field. In fact, those two had FAR more post-season "choke jobs" than Wilt ever had. Yet the "bashers" will find the most miniscule reason to blame Wilt for his playoff "failures."

As for "SUPPORTING casts", it was not merely the FACT that Wilt OFTEN played with poor supporting casts, but that they were almost always outgunned by opposing teams, most noticeably the HOF-laden Celtics. And, of course, I have also shown that not only were Wilt's "supporting casts" outgunned, they almost always played considerably worse than they did in their regular seasons, as well. Just as an example...I could only find TWO reasonably fullt-time players, in Wilt's entire post-season career, who had a playoff run of shooting 50%+ from the floor.

In the VAST majority of Wilt's post-season career (nearly all of them), his "supporting casts" shot worse than the post-season league average, and in SEVERAL they were WAY below the league average. And he STILL took a couple of them to within an eyelash of beating the eventual champion on two occasions. He even won a title in '72, with his teammates collectively shooting .414 from the floor in their 15 playoff games (12 wins BTW.) And his best teammate, West, shot .376 in that playoff run, including .325 in the Finals.

The reality was, it was simply amazing that Wilt was routinely taking his team's as far as he did. But the "bashers" always blindly point out "just two rings." And yet, a PRIME Kareem accomplished considerably less, in almost every aspect of the game. It wasn't until he played with Magic (and Worthy) that he would add five more rings. Not a knock on KAJ, because he was basically doing all he could, as well...but it is an odd double-standard, don't you agree?

Chamberlain said Frazier always outplayed West, to which Frazier even defended West and said it was not a regular thing for him to happen. Which even the 1970 finals shows and Frazier outplayed West in 2 out of 7 games.

But of course Wilt needed a scapegoat, as usual he needed to deflect the blame elsewhere, so he blamed West and made up a blatant lie in his book.

If only Wilt wasn't horrendous at the FT line, and had more intangibles, he'd have more than 2 rings, he'd be around the MJs with 5-6, but it is what it is.

He has 2, which is greater than most people, but could and should have been more given Chamberlain's immense talent.

[MiseryCityTexas]

What sucks is that Wilt even choked when he had friggin Nate Thurmond on the same team with him.:oldlol:

[LAZERUSS]

Chamberlain said Frazier always outplayed West, to which Frazier even defended West and said it was not a regular thing for him to happen. Which even the 1970 finals shows and Frazier outplayed West in 2 out of 7 games.

But of course Wilt needed a scapegoat, as usual he needed to deflect the blame elsewhere, so he blamed West and made up a blatant lie in his book.

If only Wilt wasn't horrendous at the FT line, and had more intangibles, he'd have more than 2 rings, he'd be around the MJs with 5-6, but it is what it is.

He has 2, which is greater than most people, but could and should have been more given Chamberlain's immense talent.

I asked you for the quote, or the link, and you still haven't supplied it. I read Wilt's book, and he merely claimed that Frazier kicked West's ass in game seven of the '70 Finals, which he clearly did.

BUT, even if Wilt somehow made the claim that Frazier ALWAYS outplayed West, it would not have been far from the truth. Clyde badly outplayed West in the '72 Finals (hell, everyone that played did)...

West averaged 19.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 8.8 apg (thank you Wilt), and shot .325 from the floor.

Frazier averaged 23.0 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, and shot .585 from the field.

Just a one-sided beat-down...



and while the '73 Finals were closer...

West averaged 21.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .442 from the field.

Frazier averaged 16.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, and shot .479 from the field.

BUT, in the clinching game five, while Wilt once again was LA's best player (23 pts, 21 rebs, on 9-16 shooting), West puked all over the floor, going 5-17 from the field.


The "bashers" scream that Wilt cost West a ring in '69 (despite the fact that Baylor shot 4-18, 2-14, 4-13, and 8-22 in four of the games, three of them losses.) But at least Wilt was productive in his game seven, scoring 18 points, on 7-8 shooting from the field, and with 27 rebounds (in only 43 minutes....thanks to "the Butcher.")

If anything, Wilt could argue that West likely cost him a ring in '70, and possibly another in '73...AND, "Mr. Clutch" DID get a ring in a series in which he shot .325 from the field...while WILT won the FMVP, with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, .600 series, including absolutely dominating the clinching game five (and BTW, with one badly sprained wrist, and the other...FRACTURED.)

The reality was, West played exceptionally well in their '69 Finals; played well in the '70 Finals...until the clinching game seven; didn't play AT ALL in the '71 playoffs; was simply awful in the '72 Finals (the entire post-season as well); and was well below average in the '73 Finals, and particularly putrid in the clinching loss.

That was the West-Wilt five years together.

And Baylor was truly laughable. He, more than anyone (ok, maybe not as much as VBK), cost LA the '69 Finals. He didn't contribute much in the '70 Finals. And that was it. He didn't play at all in the '71 post-season, and he "retired" early on in '72.

So when Simmons brings up those two as Wilt's "HOF" teammates, it must be taken in proper context.

[LAZERUSS]

And I should add here:



...and all this came after a series when Wilt:
1) beat a team without HCA (choker you said?)
2) hit the game winning FT's in a game when he had 4-16 up to then (oh, wait, choker again...)
3) had a triple double in another
4) closed the series with a 38/26/11 block performance (choker!)
and
5) this was still a below his standards series, since he was playing a big part of it with a stomach ailment. He got even better against the Celtics.


Well, you can add that game to game three of the '70 WCF's, when Wilt went 2-2 from the line at the end of regulation, to send the game into OT, where his Lakers eventually won the game.

And we both know that Wilt made a key basket, and the tying FT with 16 seconds left in game seven of the '62 EDF's (albiet, Sam Jones hit the game winner a few seconds later.) And we both know that Wilt alsmot single-handedly brought his 40-40 Sixers back from a 110-101 deficit in the last two minutes of game seven of the '65 DF's, when he went 2-2 from the line with 36 seconds left, and then a dunk over Russell with five seconds left to pull them within one.

So, the more research that comes forth, we see that Wilt was often CLUTCH from the line late in games.


As for the '65 EDF's...arguably the most one-sided series between two GOAT candidates in their primes, in NBA post-season history (although Wilt's demolition of Russell in the '67 EDF's was close.) And yes, if you include TS%'s, it was considerably greater than Hakeem's pasting of D-Rob in the '95 WCF's.

[LAZERUSS]

What sucks is that Wilt even choked when he had friggin Nate Thurmond on the same team with him.:oldlol:

Not sure if you are serious, but just in case...

Thurmond was a ROOKIE in that ONE post-season with Wilt, and played part-time, and obviously out of position (since he was a natural center.)

As for Wilt in that same playoff run...

In the WDF's, Chamberlain averaged 38.6 ppg, 23.0 rpg, and shot .559 from the field. He had games of 46 points, 50 points (on 22-32 from the field BTW), and in the clinching game seven win, he put up a 39-26 game, with 10 blocks, on 19-29 shooting.

Then, in the Finals, all Wilt did was outscore Russell, per game, 29.2 ppg to 11.2 ppg; outrebound Russell, per game, 27.8 rpg to 25.2 rpg; and outshoot Russell from the field, by a .517 to .386 margin.

Overall, Wilt single-handedly took what had been a 31-49 team the year before, to a 48-32 record, then thru the WDF's, and then into the Finals, where he wiped the floor with Russell.

So, while Thurmond averaged 10.0 ppg, 12.3 rpg, and shot .438 in that post-season, all Wilt could do was average 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shoot .543 from the field (in an NBA post-season that averaged 105.8 ppg on a .420 eFG%.)

[Stringer Bell]

Unfortunately I don't carry books or documentaries with me everywhere I go for reference on message boards.

It on the Sportscentury for either West or Chamberlain. They mentioned his quote and then showed Frazier himself saying it was not true. Frazier was like 7 years younger so naturally a great player like him should outplay a guy like West with all the wear-and-tear and injuries, but he only outplayed him in 2 out of 7 games in the 1970 finals?

But what do you expect out of the Wilter? The truth? No, he shoots the blame over to West, just like he did to coaches.

West gives his all in a historic performance and his team loses, a key teammate underperforms, and West makes no excuses. Wilt plays and loses, and makes excuses.

Wilt was great, but no Jordan-esque big-game, clutch player, no Russell-type leader who was the ultimate teammate and winner.

Hence the reason why he's in the middle of the top 10, rather than #1, where his individual stats would put him.

But he "almost" won 6 rings. :oldlol:

Only 4 more rings and he'd have 6. :applause: :applause: :roll:




I asked you for the quote, or the link, and you still haven't supplied it. I read Wilt's book, and he merely claimed that Frazier kicked West's ass in game seven of the '70 Finals, which he clearly did.

BUT, even if Wilt somehow made the claim that Frazier ALWAYS outplayed West, it would not have been far from the truth. Clyde badly outplayed West in the '72 Finals (hell, everyone that played did)...

West averaged 19.8 ppg, 4.0 rpg, 8.8 apg (thank you Wilt), and shot .325 from the floor.

Frazier averaged 23.0 ppg, 8.0 rpg, 8.0 apg, and shot .585 from the field.

Just a one-sided beat-down...



and while the '73 Finals were closer...

West averaged 21.4 ppg, 3.2 rpg, 4.6 apg, and shot .442 from the field.

Frazier averaged 16.6 ppg, 6.8 rpg, 5.0 apg, and shot .479 from the field.

BUT, in the clinching game five, while Wilt once again was LA's best player (23 pts, 21 rebs, on 9-16 shooting), West puked all over the floor, going 5-17 from the field.


The "bashers" scream that Wilt cost West a ring in '69 (despite the fact that Baylor shot 4-18, 2-14, 4-13, and 8-22 in four of the games, three of them losses.) But at least Wilt was productive in his game seven, scoring 18 points, on 7-8 shooting from the field, and with 27 rebounds (in only 43 minutes....thanks to "the Butcher.")

If anything, Wilt could argue that West likely cost him a ring in '70, and possibly another in '73...AND, "Mr. Clutch" DID get a ring in a series in which he shot .325 from the field...while WILT won the FMVP, with a 19 ppg, 23 rpg, .600 series, including absolutely dominating the clinching game five (and BTW, with one badly sprained wrist, and the other...FRACTURED.)

The reality was, West played exceptionally well in their '69 Finals; played well in the '70 Finals...until the clinching game seven; didn't play AT ALL in the '71 playoffs; was simply awful in the '72 Finals (the entire post-season as well); and was well below average in the '73 Finals, and particularly putrid in the clinching loss.

That was the West-Wilt five years together.

And Baylor was truly laughable. He, more than anyone (ok, maybe not as much as VBK), cost LA the '69 Finals. He didn't contribute much in the '70 Finals. And that was it. He didn't play at all in the '71 post-season, and he "retired" early on in '72.

So when Simmons brings up those two as Wilt's "HOF" teammates, it must be taken in proper context.

[Asukal]

Blah Blah Blah! Same old Wilt did this Wilt did that bs from jlauber....

Well I'll tell you what he didn't do, win more than 2 titles. :oldlol:

GOAT choker! :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

Unfortunately I don't carry books or documentaries with me everywhere I go for reference on message boards.

It on the Sportscentury for either West or Chamberlain. They mentioned his quote and then showed Frazier himself saying it was not true. Frazier was like 7 years younger so naturally a great player like him should outplay a guy like West with all the wear-and-tear and injuries, but he only outplayed him in 2 out of 7 games in the 1970 finals?

But what do you expect out of the Wilter? The truth? No, he shoots the blame over to West, just like he did to coaches.

West gives his all in a historic performance and his team loses, a key teammate underperforms, and West makes no excuses. Wilt plays and loses, and makes excuses.

Wilt was great, but no Jordan-esque big-game, clutch player, no Russell-type leader who was the ultimate teammate and winner.

Hence the reason why he's in the middle of the top 10, rather than #1, where his individual stats would put him.

But he "almost" won 6 rings. :oldlol:

Only 4 more rings and he'd have 6. :applause: :applause: :roll:

Again, you have it wrong. Chamberlain didn't throw West under the bus. After the series loss, as usual, even if completely unjustified, it was WILT who took the brunt of the blame. And in his first book he made the comment that how could the critics blame Chamberlain, and yet West got a free pass. The reality was, Chamberlain was LA's best player in the last three games of that series. He certainly didn't choke. The man came back from an injury that either shelved players for a year, or ended their careers altogether, in only FOUR months. And he did so, not for personal gain, but because he felt he owed it to his teammates. THAT is DOCUMENTED.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8825003&postcount=26

and

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=8824807&postcount=25


And he battled a prime Reed, in his MVP season, and on basically one leg, to a draw in the first four games of the series (and a 2-2 series tie against a 60-22 Knicks team that was much younger, more talented, and much deeper.) And he was wiping the floor with Reed in game five BEFORE Reed went down (and the Lakers were up by 10 points at the time.) What happened after that?

Cherry quoted NY Times writer Leonard Koppett (yes a NEW YORK writer), after that game five, come-from-behind Knicks win (on page236 BTW)...

"The Lakers were robbed, pure and simple. In the second half, the Knicks started cutting into the lead. The crowd went crazy and the officials wouldn't call anything against the Knicks."

And why did Koppett say that? West and Wilt, combined, took FIVE FGAs in the entire second half. And even with a massive disparity in FTAs, the fact remained that the officials "watched carefully as the Knicks' defense swarmed over the Lakers, especially West and Wilt, and to decide that most Knick harassment was legal."

And you gloss over those "missed rings" like they were sweeping losses. Again, Wilt was a TOTAL of NINE points (margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points) of beating the Celtic Dynasty in FOUR game sevens. Add in a suspiciously officiated game five, in a series that, had LA won that game, they would have won the title with Wilt's overwhelming game six (45 points, on 20-27 shooting, with 27 rebounds.) Or, had Wilt's teammates, including West, showed up for that game seven, they mighty have won a ring in that game.

It amazes me how the clueless "bashers" scoff at Wilt's "excuses" when the evidence is overwhelming. Wilt took putrid rosters (last place rosters) to within an eyelash of beating Russell's vaunted Dynasty TWICE...and in one of those series, his teammates shot a combined .345 from the field in that seven game series. In fact, I have shown playoff season, after playoff season, in which Chamberlain's TEAMMATES blew chunks all over the floor...and yet with Wilt's domination, they STILL nearly won titles.

And we do KNOW, that when Wilt was given an EQUAL supporting cast, and that was healthy, as to what Russell had, he BLEW AWAY the "dynasty."

I find it fascinating that so many posters here write about Russell's "intangibles", and yet, the man was blessed with those most talented (and deepest) rosters, year-after-year, as well as a HOF coach. You want "intangibles"...ask yourself this...how did Chamberlain take a 40-40 team, with a roster that was bottom-feeder the year before, and didn't make the playoffs...thru a stacked 48-32 Royals team in a first round romp, and then to a game seven, one point loss (on Boston's home floor) against a 62-18 Celtic team that was at it's peak in their dynasty run?

[Mr Feeny]

Oh my goodness!

[Screamin A Smit]

Hmmm... interesting

[LAZERUSS]

Hmmm... interesting


Very...


Lebron in the '07 Finals. In a Finals in which he averaged 6 ppg less than his regular season ppg (using the same rounding methods used against Wilt)...and on a .356 FG%...in a season in which he shot .476.

Oh, and then in the clinching (and sweeping) game four one point loss...LeChoke shot 10-30 from the field, and 2-6 from the line.


How about the '11 Finals? Scored TEN PPG less than his regular season average (again, using the "Wilt" method of rounding.) Watched passively the entire series while a declining Wade couldn't cut the mustard/ Hell, Wade even yelled at the timid one in a critical game of the series. Then this physical specimen was SHUT DOWN by the 5-10 JJ Barea in the most critical moments of the series, as well.

How about the '13 Finals. Was a bystander in game six until the 4th quarter. Then comitted numerous turnovers in the waning minutes, and with his team down 3, he launched a wild trey that looked like a drunken Stevie Wonder throwing a bowling ball in a wind-tunnel. Fortunately for LeChoke...Ray Allen hit the most critical shot of the series...or LeFlop would have been "1-4."

'14: "Led" his team to the worst beating in NBA FInals history.

How about the '15 Finals. In a season in which he shot .488...he couldn't do ANYTHING against the one-on-one defense of a role player off the Warrior bench, and ended up shooting .398. In his biggest game of the series, a winnable game six...he shot-jacked his way to 13-33 shooting. Then he meekly handed the FMVP to that same bench-player. An NBA first...two MVPs, in their primes...watching as a role player held up the FMVP trophy.

Even the '16 Finals. In the last four minutes of game seven...and as always...LeChoke came up empty. 0-4 from the floor, and just awful. And again, a TEAMMATE stepped up...and Kyrie hit the series winning shot.


Oh, and we can't forget Lebron QUITTING on his team in the 2010 playoffs, and even his own ownder acknowledged that LeChoke quit on his team in the 2009 playoffs.

Court Jester's most memorable moment oh his choking playoff career...being carted off after basically mailing in the series in game one of the '14 Finals...in the most one-sided beatdown ever administered in NBA Finals history...with...yep...MENSTRUAL CRAMPS.

[LAZERUSS]

This...


Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.

GOAT.

[aj1987]

OP makes FANTASTIC points. No amount of trying to rewrite history or excuse will cover that up. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[LAZERUSS]

OP makes FANTASTIC points. No amount of trying to rewrite history or excuse will cover that up. :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

In the '72 WCF's, a 35 year old Chamberlain, and playing on a surgically repaired knee, put up one of the lowest scoring playoff series of his career (12 ppg.) And he did so against a PEAK Kareem, who was coming off of the greatest regular season of his entire 20 year career...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain


In the post-season, the Lakers swept the Chicago Bulls,[92] then went on to face the Milwaukee Bucks of young superstar center and regular-season MVP Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (formerly Lew Alcindor). The matchup between Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar was hailed by LIFE magazine as the greatest matchup in all of sports. Chamberlain would help lead the Lakers past Abdul-Jabbar and the Bucks in six games.[92] Particularly, Chamberlain was lauded for his performance in Game 6, which the Lakers won 104–100 after trailing by 10 points in the fourth quarter: he scored 24 points and 22 rebounds, played all 48 minutes and outsprinted the younger Bucks center on several late Lakers fast breaks.[93] Jerry West called it "the greatest ball-busting performance I have ever seen."[93] Chamberlain performed so well in the series that TIME magazine stated, "In the N.B.A.'s western division title series with Milwaukee, he (Chamberlain) decisively outplayed basketball's newest giant superstar, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, eleven years his junior

12 ppg.


Compare that with LeChoke's highest scoring Finals of his career...

http://ftw.usatoday.com/2015/06/lebr...finals-history


YET THE MAN TASKED WITH DEFENDING HIM FOR MOST OF THE SERIES WON THE FINALS MVP AWARD.

That’s sort of like giving World Series MVP to a pitcher who went 2-0 but in games that finished 11-9, right? Not really. Andre Iguodala was the rightful recipient of the Finals MVP and certainly deserved to win it by more than the 7-4 margin he had over LeBron. Why? Despite LeBron’s prodigious numbers, his offensive efficiency was garbage — and that’s being kind. Iggy was like a wall, holding LeBron to just eight uncontested shots prior to Game 6 and forcing The King into an 11-46 shooting performance when he was D’ing him up.

N THE 83 GAMES LEBRON STARTED BEFORE THE NBA FINALS, HE TOOK 30 SHOTS OR MORE JUST THREE TIMES. IN THE SIX GAMES OF THE NBA FINALS, LEBRON DID IT FIVE TIMES.

That’s the stat of a desperate man. A man who has no answers with the loss of teammates Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Why did LeBron 35.8 points per game in the NBA Finals? Because he took so many shots that it’d have been impossible not to. His shooting nights, with Iguodala draped all over him: 18-38, 11-35, 14-34, 7-22, 15-34 and 13-33. That’s a .398 shooting percentage from the floor. Did LeBron try to do too much?

LEBRON DIDN’T SHOOT WORSE IN ANY MONTH OR PLAYOFF SERIES THAN HE DID IN THE FINALS.

His overall shooting percentage from the regular season was .488, which was .090 worse than what he shot in the Finals. For the entire month of January, LeBron never had a single-game shooting percentage lower than .400. There are dozens of stats that basically say the same thing: LeBron shot really, really poorly in the Finals.

After a surprising lead of 2-1 games after 3, everyone knew Game 4 was the tipping point in the NBA Finals. James needed to win the game to put the Warriors away. So what did LeBron do with the series on the line? He put up 20 points on 7-22 shooting, a .314 shooting percentage, a 5-10 night from the free-throw line, with 12 rebounds and eight assists thrown in to make for what could have been one of the worst triple-doubles in Finals history. From January 1st through that night, LeBron had only scored fewer than 20 points in 10 games, many of which came in blowouts in which LeBron left the game early.

I wrote a post earlier this week saying LeBron should be the MVP of the NBA Finals. I was proven wrong. After his 13-33 performance in the series-clinching game, most of that due to Iguodala, there was no doubt who the actual winner should be especially when you consider that Iguodala — who didn’t start a game this season until the Finals — scored 22 points in that crucial Game 5 and 27 in the clincher. Those were his two highest point totals of the entire year.

So good on the media for making the right call and especially for not giving Steph Curry any votes. Curry deserved none, but his lack of support was a surprise only because you’d figure the regular-season MVP would just get some votes due to inertia. And though Curry was fine in the Warriors final three-game winning streak, he was awful in the first three games. Thus, there was only one man who deserved to be named most valuable.

In a Finals in which the Court Jester averaged 35.8 ppg...

[Screamin A Smit]

LOL, LeBrons 36ppg is like 3 of Wilts Finals ppg combined



#2/6

[LAZERUSS]

LOL, LeBrons 36ppg is like 3 of Wilts Finals ppg combined



#2/6

And yet, a ROLE player, coming off the BENCH, beat LeChoke out of the FMVP. In the HIGHEST SCORING FINALS of his career.

BTW, you won't find a Finals in which Chamberlain shot .398, and even .356 from the field. In fact, he shot .559 from the floor in his six career Finals, all while holding his opposing starting centers, ALL in the HOF BTW, to a combined .439 FG% in those six series.

Oh, and guess who has the ALL-TIME HIGHEST RPG average in their NBA Finals career? Yep, Chamberlain... 24.6 rpg.

[Screamin A Smit]

And yet, a ROLE player, coming off the BENCH, beat LeChoke out of the FMVP.

MEANWHILE, Wilt WAS the role-player in his Finals.


West, Baylor, Egan were all more prominent on the team than Wilt.




Think about that, Wilt was AT BEST the 3rd or 4th important player in every Finals he was in :oldlol:





Wilts role = Tristan Thompsons role on the Cavs

[aj1987]

LOL, LeBrons 36ppg is like 3 of Wilts Finals ppg combined



#2/6
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This was also in BY FAR THE WORST era in NBA history.

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5


MEANWHILE, Wilt WAS the role-player in his Finals.

West, Baylor, Egan were all more prominent on the team than Wilt.

Think about that, Wilt was AT BEST the 3rd or 4th important player in every Finals he was in :oldlol:

Wilts role = Tristan Thompsons role on the Cavs
That's surprisingly accurate.

The mental midget lost a series in which his teammate averaged 39/5/7.

[LAZERUSS]

...


Gotta love the Ajackoffs of this site. CONTEXT. He has no clue what that means.

Scoring? How about post-season runs of 28, 29, 33, 35, 35, and 37 ppg? How about post-season series of 37, 37, 39, and 39 ppg? How about post-season series of 28-30, 29-28, 30-31, 31-27, and 34-27 against RUSSELL? How about 13 playoff games of 40+...11 of which came in his 52 playoff games in his "scoring" seasons (21% for those keeping track.) How about MUST WIN games of 45-27 (Finals BTW), 46-34 (against RUSSELL BTW), 50-22, 50-35 (against RUSSELL BTW), and even a 56-35-12 game? As well as another 50 point game in the '64 WDF's. Or series clinching games of 30-32, 30-26, 38-26, and 39-26-10?

How about his MUST WIN playoff games? In his 23 must win playoff games...

31.1 ppg, 26.4 rpg, 4.2 apg, and on a .540 FG% (in post-seasons that shot .435 in the same span.)

How about his 37 MUST WIN, and SERIES CLINCHING playoff games?

29.5 ppg, 26.1 rpg, 4.0 apg, and on a .546 FG% (again, in post-seasons that shot .435 in that span...or nearly TWELVE percentage points above the league average.)


Rebounding? Simply...the GOAT post-season rebounder in NBA history. Yes, Russell had a slightly higher average... 24.9 rpg to 24.5 rpg...BUT, in their eight playoff series H2H's, Chamberlain outrebounded Russell in EVERY one of them. Including margins of 5, 6, and even 9 rpg! Oh, Chamberlain is also the all-time FINALS leading rebounder with a career average of 24.6 rpg.

He played in 13 post-seasons, and his LOW was 20.2 rpg. He also had post-seasons of 28, 29, and even 30 rpg. And he had series of 30 and 31 rpg (both against RUSSELL BTW.) In his LAST post-season, at age 36, and covering 17 games... 22.5 rpg, in a post-season that averaged 50.6 rpg per team (just this last season the NBA averaged 42.0 rpg.) That translates to 19 rpg in the '16 playoffs. In his LAST season.

He played in 29 post-season series, and was never outrebounded by an opposing center in ANY of them. He was outrebounded by PF Jerry Lucas in ONE...and by a 21.0 to 20.0 rpg margin/ However, when the two faced each other as CENTERS, a 35 year old Wilt, playing 47 mpg, outrebounded the 31 year old Lacas, playing 46 mpg, by a 23.2 rpg to 9.8 rpg margin.

Wilt was outrebounding Reed by 14 rpg, Thurmond by 7 rpg, and Russell by 9 rpg.


Playoff RECORDS? Surely this "declining" Wilt would not have any post-season records, right? How about, and by far, the most 20-20 games, the most 30-20 games, the most 20-30 games, the most 30-30 games, the most 40-20 games, the most 40-30 games, the most 50-20 games, and the most 50-30 games? How about the most post-seasons of 20-20, 30-20, 30-25, 35-20?


Blocked shots? Tim Duncan just retired with the "official" post-season blocked shot record of 568 in his 251 playoff games. Well nbastats.net contributor, Julizaver found blocked shot data for 81 of Wilt's 160 post-season games...or roughly half (and almost all of it from the mid-60's on)...and... 590 blocked shots...in 81 games! Hell, an old Wilt blocked 33 shots in his '72 WCF's in the four known games of that series, and 15 of those were on KAJ!

Defense? Wilt held Russell to playoff series FG%'s of .399, .397, .386, and .358 (in a season in which Russell shot .454 against the NBA.) He held Thurmond to playoff series of .392, .373, and .343 (a PEAK Nate BTW...and in a season in which Thurmond shot .437 against the NBA.) He held Bellamy to .450 in a season in which Bellamy shot .521 against the NBA, and then to .421 in a season in which Bellamy had shot .541 against the NBA. Oh, can't forget Kareem, either. KAJ shot .577 and .574 against the NBA in '71 and '72. Against Wilt in those two post-seasons? .481 and .457 (including .414 in the last four games of that series.)

How about Wilt's FG% in his six Finals? .559...all while holding his opposing centers (all in the HOF BTW)...to a combined .439. Or how about his two game seven's of the Finals? He outshot Reed and Russell by a combined .708 to .333 margin (all while averaging 19.5 ppg and 25.5 rpg.)


Passing? Find me a CENTER who averaged 9.0 apg in an entire playoff run (which, BTW, led the post-season that year.) Or a center who had two straight triple-double series (28-27-11, and 22-32-10)?


Of course, had a PRIME Wilt faced the likes of a washed Smits, or a 35 year old Mutombo (whom Shaq was allowed to beat to a bloody pulp in some of the most disgraceful offciating in Finals history), or a never-was in the career 6 ppg scoring MacCulloch, or the complete bust in Eric Dampier... in his Finals...no doubt he would have been putting up 30-40-and 50 point playoff games against them.

GOAT.

[Screamin A Smit]

MEANWHILE, Wilt WAS the role-player in his Finals.


West, Baylor, Egan were all more prominent on the team than Wilt.




Think about that, Wilt was AT BEST the 3rd or 4th important player in every Finals he was in :oldlol:





Wilts role = Tristan Thompsons role on the Cavs


...

[LAZERUSS]

MEANWHILE, Wilt WAS the role-player in his Finals.


West, Baylor, Egan were all more prominent on the team than Wilt.




Think about that, Wilt was AT BEST the 3rd or 4th important player in every Finals he was in :oldlol:





Wilts role = Tristan Thompsons role on the Cavs

Chamberlain won TWO FMVPs (yes, he would have won a unanimous FMVI in '67 had the award existed.)

Baylor??? :roll:

Shot .385 in the entire playoffs in '69, which, BTW, was a team WORST. How about in the Finals? .397...which included losses in which he shot 4-18, 2-14 (and 1-6 from the line...in a one point loss), and a game seven of 8-22.

Egan??? :roll:

You obviously have NEVER researched the '69 Finals. In game four, with LA leading the series, 2-1, and leading in the game, 88-87, and having the ball, and with only seconds left... Egan was stripped of his dribble, and then a few moments later, Sam Jones, while falling down, the game-winner. Oh, and in the game, the Lakers pasted the Celtics, 117-104. That ONE PLASY cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp.

West??? :roll: :roll: :roll:

In the '72 Finals, West shot...get this... .325 from the field. How about Wilt? Put up a 19-23-4 .600 Finals, which included a clinching 24-29-8 game on 10-14 from the field...and leading the Lakers to their first-ever title in Los Angeles. All of which was culminated by Wilt winning the FMVP. Without Wilt, West would have retired ringless.

[LAZERUSS]

And how about this comparison...


Why did MJ, in his highest scoring season, get swept in the first round, with a .417 FG%, and a clinching game loss of 9-30 from the floor in '87? Why did he go 1-9 in the playoffs in his first three seasons? And how come MJ's scoring and efficiency declined considerably from his regular season numbers when he faced the Bad Boys from '88 thru '90?

And how come MJ didn't win a ring until he played with a roster that had an injury-plagued 55-27 season, withOUT him?

How come a PRIME Kareem, in his first TEN seasons, only went toi TWO Finals, and only won ONE ring? And how come a prime KAJ missed two straight playoffs in the middle of the 70's, and in the weakest era for champions in NBA history?

And how come a PEAK Kareem's numbers fell off the cliff when he faced Thurmond and Wilt in five playoff series from '71 thru '73?

How come Shaq was SWEPT SIX times in the playoffs (and nearly EIGHT)? And how come a PEAK Shaq only went 1-8 against Greg Ostertag, including a series of 23-11 .493? And why did Shaq's scoring and efficiency drop considerably when he faced the Robinson-Spurs from '99-'02, including a 21 ppg .447 series?

And then, when he faced a washed up Smits in last season; and a 35 year old Mutombo...whom the officials allowed to be beaten to a pulp; and a never-was 6 ppg career scoring 6-11 clod in Todd MacCoulloch....he suddenly was putting up 36 ppg Finals?


I could and have covered all of the Wilt "declines", but just to condense them...he took last place rosters, in his scoring seasons, to within 2 and 1 point of beating the GOAT Dynasty. With series of 34-27 and 30-31. With supporting casts that were vastly outmatched, and then also performed way below normal.

Let me give you an example...

In Chamberlain's 64-65 season, he was traded mid-year, for three decent players, to a team that had gone 34-46 the year before. He then single-handedly carried what was a 40-40 team, past Oscar's stacked 48-32 Royals in the first round.

Then, he took that roster, which had gone 34-46 without him...up against the six-time defending champion, and 62-18 Celtics, with SIX HOFers, and at the peal of their dynasty...

to a game seven, one point loss. In a game in which Chamberlain scored 30 pts on 12-15 shooting (and with a .724 TS%), with 32 rebounds. And in that game, he scored Philly's last 8 points, including 2-2 from the line with 36 secs remaining, and a dunk over Russell with 5 secs left...to pull the Sixers to within 110-109. Then, after the "clutch" Russell hit a guidewire with an inbounds pass, the Sixers had a chance to pull off the greatest upset in NBA playoff history. Alas, a Wilt teammate, Hal Greer, threw an inbounds pass that was picked off by Hondo. Oh, and while Chamberlain shot 12-15 from the floor, his teammates collectively shot 28-75 from the floor.. .373...in that one point loss.

For the series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, with 31.4 rpg (and a 24.8 TRB%), on a .555 FG% (in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall), and with a .575 TS%, and with 7.0 bpg. Led BOTH teams in MPG, PPG, RPG, TRB%, FG%, TS%, and BPG.

Oh, and then Boston went on to rout the Baylor-less Lakers in the Finals, 4-1, which included two 30+ point blowout wins. In a series in which Russell averaged 18-25-6 on a .702 FG%. And against this center...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/..._id2=chambwi01


Compare that with Lebron's '16 Finals. Took a 57-25 team up against a 73-9 team that barely won a seven game series against a 55 win team, and was outscored in that series. Then, after the Warriors went up 3-1, the NBA suspended Draymond Green; Andrew Bogut, their rim-protector, missed the last two games with an injury; and the "Lebron-Stopper" Iguadala injured his back and was just a shell in the last two games of the series.

In the game seven win, Lebron shot 9-24 from the field, including 0-4 in the last four minutes. He needed a great defensive stop by Kevin Love (of all people), and a game winning trey from Kyrie to win the game.

Lebron's game seven stats:

27 points, on 9-24 from the field, with an eFG% of .396, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot .450. And with a TS% of .475, in a game in which the two teams combined to shoot a TS% of .501.

He also had a teammate score 26 points, on a .478 eFG%, and a .525 TS%.

The best player on the floor in that game seven?

How about Draymond Green, who as you will recall, was suspended in game five. Green put up a game high 32 points, on a .933 eFG% and a .955 TS%, with a game high 15 rebounds.


James had a great series, but not a Wilt-esque '65 EDF's.

29.7 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 8.9 apg on a .533 eFG%, and a .562 TS%, in a series in which both teams shot considerably higher than the teams in Wilt's '65 EDF's. BTW, Chamberlain shot an eFG% of .555 in his '65 series against the Celtics...in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .413 overall. Lebron's .533 eFG% came in a series in which the two teams combined to shoot .508.


In any case... Lebron was one shot away from losing the '16 Finals, and Wilt was one bad inbounds pass away from winning a ring in '65.

BTW...none other than John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters in their 10 years in the league together, and it would have been Wilt holding all those rings.

[aj1987]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

[Mr Feeny]

.511 FT% shooter in the regular season
.465 in the playoffs
.375 in the finals


Chamberlains ppg in regular season: 30.1
Chamberlains ppg in playoffs: 22.5
Chamberlain's ppg in the Finals: 18

Ilt's scoring drop off from the RS to the PO's:

'60 - -4.4
'61 - -1.4
'62 - -15.4
'63 - Missed the PO's despite averaging 44.8/24.3/3.4 on 52.8%
'64 - -2.2
'65 - -5.4
'66 - -5.5
'67 - -2.4
'68 - -0.6
'69 - -6.6
'70 - -5.2 (Injured his knee, so not really gonna count this year)
'71 - -2.4
'72 - -0.1
'73 - -2.8

Those numbers would translate to ~15 PPG in the '90's, BTW. Playing in a weak ass era definitely helped boost his stats.


Ilt's FG% from the RS to the PO's:

1960 - +3.5
1961 - -4.0
1962 - -3.9
1964 - +1.8
1965 - +2.0
1966 - -3.1
1967 - -10.4
1968 - -6.1
1979 - -3.8
1970 - -1.9
1971 - -9.0
1972 - -8.6
1973 - -17.5

1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In Game 5 Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7 Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in Game 2. In a pivotal Game 4 Wilt shot 2-11 from the line in a 1-point loss, a win would have gave the Lakers a 3-1 series lead. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain again in Game 7, doing so in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Division Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Division Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 28-68 (41.2%)

1965 Division Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1963 Regular season
Wilt led his team to a 31-49 record, a record too poor to make the playoffs.

1962 Division Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1961 Division Semifinals
Wilt's Warriors had HCA and were facing the 38-41 Nationals. The result? The sub .500 Nationals swept Wilt's team 3-0. In an elimination Game 3 Wilt shot 7-14 from the freethrow line in a 3-point loss.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 21-38 (55.3%)

1960 Division Finals
After a regular season of 38.4 ppg, Wilt followed that up with a 30.5 ppg series in the Division Finals vs. Boston.

Wilt FT shooting for the series: 35-65 (53.8%)

Oh. My. Goodness:lol