Pretend the NBA started in 1990, who are the top 10 players of all-time now?

[Umad101]

What is ur top 10

[kennethgriffin]

#1 jordan
#2 Kobe
#3 Shaq
#4 Duncan
#5 Hakeem
#6 Lebron
#7 Dirk
#8 Malone
#9 Stockton
#10 Garnett

[ImmortalD24]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. Tim Duncan
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. LeBron James
7. Kevin Garnett
8. Karl Malone
9. Dirk Nowitzki
10. Charles Barkley

[EnoughSaid]

Wade is definitely top 10. :bowdown:

[Umad101]

Wade is definitely top 10. :bowdown:
I truly don't think he would make it probably in 12-15 range

[Meticode]

Wade is definitely top 10. :bowdown:
:no: Nope.

[Heavincent]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Hakeem
6. Lebron
7. Barkley
8. KG
9. Dirk
10. Malone

[Heavincent]

Wade is definitely top 10. :bowdown:

:roll:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wade is definitely top 10. :bowdown:

I think he just me misses

[Mr Know It All]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Lebron James
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kevin Garnett
9) Karl Malone
10) John Stockton

We must also assume that pre-1990 numbers don't apply for guys like Hakeem, Jordan, and Malone. So that account for Hakeem being below Duncan, and Malone being so low (longevity for him would be a little less considered).

[Heavincent]

6) Kobe Bryant


:roll:

[Pacers4ever]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) Lebron James
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kevin Garnett
9) Karl Malone
10) John Stockton

[Papaya Petee]

1.) Michael Jordan
2.) Shaquille O'Neal
3.) Tim Duncan
4.) Kobe Bryant
5.) Hakeem Olajuwon
6.) LeBron James
7.) Charles Barkley
8.) Kevin Garnett
9.) David Robinson
10.) Dwyane Wade

[kennethgriffin]

lol@ barkley being on most peoples lists

it says if it started in the 90's

barkley was finished around the mid 90's

a big part of his career was 85-90

[kennethgriffin]

Wade is definitely top 10. :bowdown:


:biggums:

he barely makes top 10 2000's

#1 Kobe
#2 Shaq
#3 Duncan
#4 Lebron
#5 Dirk
#6 Garnett
#7 Nash
#8 Iverson
#9 Wade
#10 Kidd

[Kblaze8855]

How would Stockton be over Wade? 2 finals as a #2 vs 2 rings one of them as a #1 and three finals overall ?

And for that matter...why would Stockton be over Ewing?

And for at least 8 years of the 90s Stockton over David robinson would have gotten you laughed at.

I love Stockton...but it would have been a joke to most in the 90s to put him over Drob. And then Drob wins 2 rings? One as a role player but 98-01 he was all star level.

[ripthekik]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Lebron James
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kevin Garnett
9) Karl Malone
10) John Stockton

We must also assume that pre-1990 numbers don't apply for guys like Hakeem, Jordan, and Malone. So that account for Hakeem being below Duncan, and Malone being so low (longevity for him would be a little less considered).
Lebron fantard alert:lol

[DatAsh]

If the NBA started in 1990?

I honestly have no idea. Almost all the players from the early 90's would have been shit (including Jordan).

The top 10 would probably be the big guys like Shaq, KG, Dwight, Duncan, Robinson, Hakeem. Guards who primarily rely on skill and shooting wouldn't have had enough time to develop and would be akin to the players of the late 19th century and early 20th century.

Guys like Jordan would be nowhere near the top ten having absolutely no one to learn from and model their game after. They would be the pioneers who everyone else begins to model their game after. Guys like Kobe who came in the mid 90's would be nothing compared to the wings of today. Fifty years from now the game might start to stabilize a bit(similar to the 1960s) and you might start to see players pop up that could enter the top ten and hold their spot for more than a few years, but until then, the top ten would be a truly dynamic list than changes completely as players figure out what does and doesn't work on court.

[Umad101]

:roll:
Lol I know this dude...........:facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

How would Stockton be over Wade? 2 finals as a #2 vs 2 rings one of them as a #1 and three finals overall while being?

And for that matter...why would Stockton be over Ewing?

And for at least 8 years of the 80s Stockton over David robinson would have gotten you laughed at.

I love Stockton...but it would have been a joke to most in the 90s to put him over Drob. And then Drob wins 2 rings? One as a role player but 98-01 he was all star level.

you do realise john stockton just from 1989-90 to 1999-00 would have around 10k assists and be right with magic johnson all time


robinson was great. but he didnt diserve that mvp( hakeem did ) or nba title ( no one did, lockout 50 games and he was a role player )

[Myth]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Kobe
4. Duncan
5. Hakeem
6. Lebron
7. Barkley
8. KG
9. Dirk
10. Malone


I haven't looked at all the posts yet, but in the first 7, this is the first really legit looking list.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Lebron
K. Malone
Barkley
Garnett
Dirk

[Mr Know It All]

Lebron fantard alert:lol

Lebron is a better player than Kobe and has had 5 years of true dominance in the league. Championships aren't everything, I know that assertion is absurd to Kobe fans who want to credit him for 5 rings even though he has never once in his career been the clear cut best player in the league.

I am factoring in player and career. Be thankful that I am factoring in career, because as an individual player Kobe probably wouldn't crack the top 10.

[Heavincent]

Lebron is a better player than Kobe and has had 5 years of true dominance in the league. Championships aren't everything, I know that assertion is absurd to Kobe fans who want to credit him for 5 rings even though he has never once in his career been the clear cut best player in the league.

I am factoring in player and career. Be thankful that I am factoring in career, because as an individual player Kobe probably wouldn't crack the top 10.

:oldlol:

[midatlantic09]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. Kobe Bryant
4. LeBron James
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Tim Duncan
7. David Robinson
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Charles Barkley
10. Allen Iverson

[dude77]

Lebron is a better player than Kobe and has had 5 years of true dominance in the league. Championships aren't everything, I know that assertion is absurd to Kobe fans who want to credit him for 5 rings even though he has never once in his career been the clear cut best player in the league.

I am factoring in player and career. Be thankful that I am factoring in career, because as an individual player Kobe probably wouldn't crack the top 10.


true post .. at the end of the day, lebron will surpass chuckbe on any list .. just a matter of time

[KG215]

6. Tim Duncan


This is even more :roll: worthy than the dude who has Kobe at #6.

[Kblaze8855]

you do realise john stockton just from 1989-90 to 1999-00 would have around 10k assists and be right with magic johnson all time

And that means people thought he was better than David robinson inthe 90s? I dont remember how old you are but I dont think you are a kid. You remember how big a deal David Robinson was right?

You come out and call Stockton better than Drob you are getting banned on an ISH from 1990-1998 injured season aside and he won a ring in 99 and 03? And calling hi ma role player doesnt really change much. He would have been an all star had they had a game in 99 and he was one in 2000 and 01. He was just widely(if not totally) considered better.

Far as who should have won the MVP...its whatever. I wasnt a big Drob fan. But his team won like 62 games and Hakeems was a 7 seed. He wasnt getting the MVP for the regular season.

[BoutPractice]

Give me
1) Jordan
2) Duncan
3) Shaq
4) Hakeem
5) Kobe
6) LeBron (as of now)
7) Dirk
8) KG
9) Wade
10) Either Robinson or Barkley (Robinson was more valuable due to being a dominant two-way center, but Barkley had a more impressive peak... not sure which one to pick to be honest)

[Linspired]

so Jordan only plays 8 seasons(not counting wizards) and wins 6 rings? :bowdown:

[AAckley1]

Lebron is a better player than Kobe and has had 5 years of true dominance in the league. Championships aren't everything, I know that assertion is absurd to Kobe fans who want to credit him for 5 rings even though he has never once in his career been the clear cut best player in the league.

I am factoring in player and career. Be thankful that I am factoring in career, because as an individual player Kobe probably wouldn't crack the top 10.

As a Kobe fan, I can agree with everything except the bolded part. Kobe was without a doubt the best player in the league from '03 - '08.

[StateOfMind12]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Kobe
5. Duncan
6. Lebron
7. Garnett
8. K. Malone
9. Dirk
10. Robinson

[Smoke117]

And that means people thought he was better than David robinson inthe 90s? I dont remember how old you are but I dont think you are a kid. You remember how big a deal David Robinson was right?

You come out and call Stockton better than Drob you are getting banned on an ISH from 1990-1998 injured season aside and he won a ring in 99 and 03? And calling hi ma role player doesnt really change much. He would have been an all star had they had a game in 99 and he was one in 2000 and 01. He was just widely(if not totally) considered better.

Far as who should have won the MVP...its whatever. I wasnt a big Drob fan. But his team won like 62 games and Hakeems was a 7 seed. He wasnt getting the MVP for the regular season.

David Robinson has become so underrated it's at both laughable and pathetic at the same time. The guy basically carried the Spurs on his shoulders in the mid 90s to 55-62 win seasons in the 94-96 seasons. People don't realize that they may have had more wins than the Jazz that they lost to in 94 and 96, but the Jazz were BETTER TEAMS. The Spurs won so many regular season games because Robinson was such a monster. The per leader three straight seasons in 94-96 (for you per nuts), a top three defensive player all three of those seasons one of which he was the best defensive player in the league and should have been DPOY. (96) He holds the 2nd most dominant modern defensive season after Hakeem (90) in 92 when he did when DPOY.

The only two knocks you can have against David Robinson is that 1. He came into the league at 24 so when he had, had that serious back injury in 97 it was only his 8th season and he basically missed all but 7 games and he was 31 during that season, so after coming off one of his best seasons in 96 he had a serious injury and missed basically the entire season. 2. He then basically deferred to Duncan. Not in 1998. In 98 he was still the best player on the team. Notice that Duncan shot his career high .549%fg and that was basically because the majority of the attention was still on David Robinson. Duncan actually shot more shots. He averaged 21.1 pts on 15.9 shots, but he only averaged 5.9fta's and shot .662%. Robinson average 21.6ppg on 14.6 shot attempts on .551%fg but he averaged 9.0fta's and shot .735%.z

Through 98-2000 Robinson led the league in drating and Spurs were 3rd in 98, 1 in 99, 2 in 2000. I've never understood why Mutombo has four DPOY awards. The first he ever received in 95 should have gone to Scottie Pippen and a good case for this one in 98 could be made for David Robinson. The one thing about giving the offense over to Tim Duncan was it allowed Robinson to concentrate on anchoring the defense. Anyone who believes Tim Duncan was anything close to David Robinson defensively is kidding themselves. David Robinson is only 2nd to Olajuwon defensively in the modern NBA. I still think that Robinson could have averaged 20/10 up until the 2000 season though as he averaged 18/10/2.3bpg in 32mpg in 2000 when he was 34 yrs with Tim Duncan as the first option. If he never gets injured and they never get Duncan then he's still there as the old war horse carrying the team and doing all he can to keep them in the mix. I doubt they would have ever traded him and he'd retire as a Spur. Either way if that did happen then that would be 11 consecutive seasons of 20/10/2-3bpg+ as the 2nd greatest defensive player in the modern NBA and that would have raised his post stock considerably.

The only case Stockton or Malone have over Robinson is longevity of prime because as far as peak play Robinson annihilates both. As far as this whole Robinson was a choker or underwhelming in the playoffs, well Karl Malone seems to hold the crown for that. Robinson is just plain better than Stockton. Robinson CARRIED TEAMS. Stockton could not carry anything. I love the guy and think he's underrated on this forum, but the only only reason you could put them over Robinson is longevity of prime because Robinson came into the league at 24 and than deferred to Duncan and concentrated on defense. Though that should be something to take into account. Could either Karl Malone or John Stockton come close to anchoring a defense like Robinson? Hell no. That is part of the reason why he was able to carry mediocre teams to 55-60 wins. It is also the reason why the Spurs lost to the Jazz in 94 and 96. Once you get to the playoffs the game changes, the game slows down, and it's harder to carry a team on your back vs a more talented team like the Jazz were. It's still impressive that Robinson was able to lead teams that were less talented to more wins than the Jazz in 94 and 96, but it makes it seem like they underachieved to the uninformed. Robinson was the single reason those teams won so many games, his dominance, and it just didn't transfer over to playoff basketball vs a team that was better overall as a team.

[talkingconch]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Lebron James
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kevin Garnett
9) Karl Malone
10) John Stockton

We must also assume that pre-1990 numbers don't apply for guys like Hakeem, Jordan, and Malone. So that account for Hakeem being below Duncan, and Malone being so low (longevity for him would be a little less considered).

Troll

[mehyaM24]

#1 jordan
#2 shaq
#3 hakeem
#4 Duncan
#5 lebron
#6 kobe
#7 Barkley
#8 Garnett
#9 Stockton
#10 Malone

[dunksby]

so Jordan only plays 8 seasons(not counting wizards) and wins 6 rings? :bowdown:
Why would you not count those seasons? Aint pretending enough already? :lol

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Shame on anyone who leaves out the all-time assists leader....who also happens to be the 3rd or 4th best PG of all time.

[AK47DR91]

1. Horry
2. Jordan
3. Pippen
4. Ron Harper
5. Kerr
6. Fisher
7. Kobe
8. Shaq
9. Duncan
10a. Horace Grant
10b. Will Perdue

[RaininTwos]

I would have Shaq as number one. I can't believe ISH is so hung up on Jordan's nuts these days to choose what, 8 years of him over a whole career of Shaq? WTF?

[AK47DR91]

I would have Shaq as number one. I can't believe ISH is so hung up on Jordan's nuts these days to choose what, 8 years of him over a whole career of Shaq? WTF? :biggums:
He was nearly unbeatable in those 8 years.

[DatAsh]

I would have Shaq as number one. I can't believe ISH is so hung up on Jordan's nuts these days to choose what, 8 years of him over a whole career of Shaq? WTF?

You're quickly becoming one of the most subtly biased posters on this board. I guess it's just coincidence that you always choose "your" era over any other.

BTW 6 championships in 8 years is hard to argue against.

[RaininTwos]

Let me get this straight, Jordan is so good that his performance from 90-98 and 01-03 is greater than Shaq's whole career? Including retirements and everything?

That's what going on now?


You're quickly becoming one of the most subtly biased posters on this board. I guess it's just coincidence that you always choose "your" era over any other.

BTW 6 championships in 8 years is hard to argue against.

Hold up, how is Shaq in "my era" but Jordan isn't?

[Umad101]

Let me get this straight, Jordan is so good that his performance from 90-98 and 01-03 is greater than Shaq's whole career? Including retirements and everything?

That's what going on now?



Hold up, how is Shaq in "my era" but Jordan isn't?
Then how come some dumbasses over here are ranking Hakeem over both Kobe and Timmy :facepalm

[RaininTwos]

Then how come some dumbasses over here are ranking Hakeem over both Kobe and Timmy :facepalm
That's a problem too imo.

If we are starting at 90, then I am going to value whole careers, more.

[Smoke117]

Then how come some dumbasses over here are ranking Hakeem over both Kobe and Timmy :facepalm

It didn't even take 282 post for me to figure out you were a troll/moron. Shut the hell up. Nobody cares what you have to say. It only revolves around Kobe or some such nonsense. Just shut your trap. You never have anything worthwhile to add so just shut up and go stand in a corner and think about Kobe.

[AK47DR91]

Let me get this straight, Jordan is so good that his performance from 90-98 and 01-03 is greater than Shaq's whole career? Including retirements and everything?

That's what going on now?
6 rings, 6 Finals MVP, 4 MVPs, 7 scoring titles, 30+PPG in 5 seasons, 30-36 PPG in 8 playoffs('90-'93, '95-'98)...that's pretty damn good. Beyond good!

[DatAsh]

Let me get this straight, Jordan is so good that his performance from 90-98 and 01-03 is greater than Shaq's whole career? Including retirements and everything?

That's what going on now?



Hold up, how is Shaq in "my era" but Jordan isn't?

I'm not saying that at all, read my first post in this thread. As for you're final question, a little common sense should be more than enough to answer that.

[miles berg]

1. Jordan
2. Shaq
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Hakeem
6. LeBron
7. Nowitzki
8. Pippen
9. Garnett
10. Barkley

[RaininTwos]

6 rings, 6 Finals MVP, 4 MVPs, 7 scoring titles, 30+PPG in 5 seasons, 30-36 PPG in 8 playoffs('90-'98)...that's pretty damn good. Beyond good!

Now let's post Shaq's career resume.



I'm not saying that at all, read my first post in this thread. As for you're final question, a little common sense should be more than enough to answer that.
The first part of my post that you quoted wasn't even directed at you, idiot.

Shaq's career started in 92. He was peaking when I was 10. Don't know how he's in my era, but Jordan isn't.

[KG215]

I would have Shaq as number one. I can't believe ISH is so hung up on Jordan's nuts these days to choose what, 8 years of him over a whole career of Shaq? WTF?

In those 8 years....

6x Champion
6x FMVP
4x MVP
6x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-Defense 1st Team
6x Scoring Champ

And his three-peat run from 1991-1993 was right up there in terms of dominance and production with Shaq's three-peat run from 2000-2002.

He'd still be a top 5 player all-time and in the GOAT discussion with those 6 seasons (8 years) alone.

[BuffaloBill]

1. Michael Jordan
2. Tim Duncan
3. Kobe Bryant
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Lebron James
7. Kevin Garnett
8. David Robinson
9. Karl Malone
10. Dwyane Wade

Out: Barkley, Dirk, Stockton

[AK47DR91]

Now let's post Shaq's career resume.
Shaq: 4 rings, 3 Finals MVP, 1 MVP, 3 scoring titles, two 30+PPG playoffs, no 30+PPG in regular season.

As for as champions, awards and scoring goes, MJ still have him beat.

[AK47DR91]

In those 8 years....

6x Champion
6x FMVP
4x MVP
6x All-NBA 1st Team
6x All-Defense 1st Team
6x Scoring Champ

And his three-peat run from 1991-1993 was right up there in terms of dominance and production with Shaq's three-peat run from 2000-2002.

He'd still be a top 5 player all-time and in the GOAT discussion with those 6 seasons (8 years) alone.
Only thing Shaq has on MJ is the All-NBA 1st Team and rebounding. And also points total, but then you'd be comparing an 18-season career to 8 seasons.

To devalue Jordan's 1991-98 run is basically devaluing his entire career. Those years were what really define him as a player, basically.

[Indian guy]

Based on peak play and resume.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) LeBron James
7) Kevin Garnett
8) David Robinson
9) Dwyane Wade
10) Dirk Nowitzki

[RaininTwos]

I like how people change the way they rank people just to put Jordan on top. At first I thought only Jordan stans did this but I see now. Whenever Jordan is included in conversation, dude just has to be proclaimed as the best of something.

Shaq's career isn't shit, I got it. I fully understand now. Forget about his domination of the league for more than a decade.

All we are concerned with is MVP's/FMVP's and scoring. Not peak and prime, none of that matters.

Here's a guy that is unanimously top five of all time. His career starts two years after the year chosen by the OP.

Everyone that's usually seen in front of him on the all time lists started their careers before(Jordan,KAJ,Bird,Magic,Russell) but for some reason....Jordan is still number one.

Makes sense.

[AK47DR91]

I like how people change the way they rank people just to put Jordan on top. At first I thought only Jordan stans did this but I see now. Whenever Jordan is included in conversation, dude just has to be proclaimed as the best of something.

Shaq's career isn't shit, I got it. I fully understand now. Forget about his domination of the league for more than a decade.

All we are concerned with is MVP's/FMVP's and scoring. Not peak and prime, none of that matters.

Here's a guy that is unanimously top five of all time. His career starts two years after the year chosen by the OP.

Everyone that's usually seen in front of him on the all time lists started their careers before(Jordan,KAJ,Bird,Magic,Russell) but for some reason....Jordan is still number one.

Makes sense.Nobody said Shaq's career was shit. It's just isn't as good as Jordan. That's not a knock on him, a lot of all-time greats can't say their resume is better either.

Shaq's dominance of 10-13 years still isn't as good as Jordan's dominant years of 8.

[RaininTwos]

Nobody said Shaq's career was shit. It's just isn't as good as Jordan. That's not a knock on him, a lot of all-time greats can't say their resume is better either.

Shaq's dominance of 10-13 years still isn't as good as Jordan's dominant years of 8.

that's some narrow minded bullshit right here.

First of all Jordan didn't even have 8 dominant years. This is just crazy talk.

I've seen it all now.

[WockaVodka]

Based on peak play and resume.

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Kobe Bryant
5) Hakeem Olajuwon
6) LeBron James
7) Kevin Garnett
8) David Robinson
9) Dwyane Wade
10) Dirk Nowitzki
Do Sir Charles and the Mailman miss out to you because they lose their 80s years?

[AK47DR91]

that's some narrow minded bullshit right here.

First of all Jordan didn't even have 8 dominant years. This is just crazy talk.
Are you serious? I just posted what Jordan did in those 8 years. And I didn't mention the fact that Jordan was able to beat all of those giants in the 90's, whereas Shaq didn't start dominating until Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, all declined.

What's your argument for Shaq?


First of all Jordan didn't even have 8 dominant years. This is just crazy talk.
If those 8 years weren't dominant then Shaq's sure didn't have a 10-13 year dominant run.

MJ was killing dudes twice his size, so I don't how that couldn't be define as "dominance."

[RaininTwos]

Are you serious? I just posted what Jordan did in those 8 years. And I didn't mention the fact that Jordan was able to beat all of those giants in the 90's, whereas Shaq didn't start dominating until Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, all declined.

What's your argument for Shaq?

What eight years of dominance are you even talking about?

He was great from 90-93, then he retired.

Came back at the end of the 95 season to lose to the Magic.

Then he was a little less great from 96-98.

Where are these eight years of dominance bro?

Unless you are counting his wizardry as a Wizard in those "eight" years.

[RaininTwos]

Are you serious? I just posted what Jordan did in those 8 years. And I didn't mention the fact that Jordan was able to beat all of those giants in the 90's, whereas Shaq didn't start dominating until Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, all declined.

What's your argument for Shaq?

He did start dominating until what?:oldlol: He came into the league a force and then grew as a player. He wasn't waiting around for people to keel over and retire, stop being silly.


If those 8 years weren't dominant then Shaq's sure didn't have a 10-13 year dominant run.

Again, what eight years are you even discussing?

[AK47DR91]

What eight years of dominance are you even talking about?

He was great from 90-93, then he retired.

Came back at the end of the 95 season to lose to the Magic.

Then he was a little less great from 96-98.

Where are these eight years of dominance bro?

Unless you are counting his wizardry as a Wizard in those "eight" years.
So by your definition, Shaq only had 3 years of dominance because Shaq was losing to Hakeem, Duncan, etc.

[RaininTwos]

MJ was killing dudes twice his size, so I don't how that couldn't be define as "dominance."

Huh?

What is this shit?

This is exactly what I've been talking about all summer. The exaggerations are getting out of hand.

[Indian guy]

Do Sir Charles and the Mailman miss out to you because they lose their 80s years?

Barkley, yes. Malone, no. I don't think Malone was ever as good as his numbers.

[RaininTwos]

So by your definition, Shaq only had 3 years of dominance because Shaq was losing to Hakeem, Duncan, etc.
I never correlated dominance to winning, I don't know where you got that from.

I said that Jordan only dominated those six years because he was retired for most of the other two. Unless you want to call 17 games a dominating year, it'd be best if you took the L on that one. My eight years were referring to the total amount of years he's played since 1990, including his Wizards days.

[AK47DR91]

He did start dominating until what?:oldlol: He came into the league a force and then grew as a player. He wasn't waiting around for people to keel over and retire, stop being silly.



Again, what eight years are you even discussing?
Oh, I get it. It's OK for Shaq to lose in the playoff through the 90's but it's not OK for Jordan to lose two? :oldlol:

Is Jordan only allowed to have dominating years when he won championships? While Shaq can be dominating through his career even in the 7 years where he couldn't win?

[Kblaze8855]

All we are concerned with is MVP's/FMVP's and scoring. Not peak and prime, none of that matters.

If you were talking about someone other than Jordan that might make a speck of sense. 90-93 Jordan is easily arguable as the best a player has ever played basketball. The fact that he halso won so much and won so many awards is just extra.

[RaininTwos]

If you were talking about someone other than Jordan that might make a speck of sense. 90-93 Jordan is easily arguable as the best a player has ever played basketball. The fact that he halso won so much and won so many awards is just extra.

But 99-02 Shaq isn't up there? Really?

[Deuce Bigalow]

1) Michael Jordan
2) Shaquille O'Neal
3) Tim Duncan
4) Hakeem Olajuwon
5) Lebron James
6) Kobe Bryant
7) Dirk Nowitzki
8) Kevin Garnett
9) Karl Malone
10) John Stockton

We must also assume that pre-1990 numbers don't apply for guys like Hakeem, Jordan, and Malone. So that account for Hakeem being below Duncan, and Malone being so low (longevity for him would be a little less considered).
http://cdn2.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/ron-swanson-computer.gif

[RaininTwos]

Oh, I get it. It's OK for Shaq to lose in the playoff through the 90's but it's not OK for Jordan to lose two? :oldlol:

Is Jordan only allowed to have dominating years when he won championships? While Shaq can be dominating through his career even in the 7 years where he couldn't win?

What are you even reading?

Jordan cannot have dominant seasons if he isn't playing dumbass.

[Umad101]

It didn't even take 282 post for me to figure out you were a troll/moron. Shut the hell up. Nobody cares what you have to say. It only revolves around Kobe or some such nonsense. Just shut your trap. You never have anything worthwhile to add so just shut up and go stand in a corner and think about Kobe.
Lol this ***** mad, what boyfriend didn't let u suck him off today

[AK47DR91]

But 99-02 Shaq isn't up there? Really?
Shaq's 2000-02 run is on par with Jordan's '91-'93 run.

Just because I'm saying Jordan's 90's years were better than Shaq's career doesn't mean I'm calling Shaq a scrub or anything like that. A lot of all-time great don't have the resume to say they're better than Jordan either. Not just Shaq.

[AK47DR91]

What are you even reading?

Jordan cannot have dominant seasons if he isn't playing dumbass.
He lose to the Pistons in 1990 in 7 games. Then lose to Orlando in 1995 after coming back retirement.

That's two playoff loses in the 90's.

[RaininTwos]

Shaq's 2000-02 run is on par with Jordan's '91-'93 run.

Just because I'm saying Jordan's 90's years were better than Shaq's career doesn't mean I'm calling Shaq a scrub or anything like that. A lot of all-time great don't have the resume to say they're better than Jordan either. Not just Shaq.

I have a fundamental problem with people declaring what someone did in six seasons is greater than a HOF bound, top five player of all time, eighteen year career.

[Kblaze8855]

But 99-02 Shaq isn't up there? Really?

Me two hours ago:


And the player Shaq was from 1994-2002 or so could be justified taking #1 overall in an all time draft. I wouldnt. But hes a pick that can be explained.


That doesnt mean he was better than Jordan.

90s to now would have the best basketball Jordan ever played...and 6 rings?

He arguably played better than Shaq(very easily arguable) and he accomplished more.

Just the way it is.

Jorda doesnt need the 80s to be over shaq. If he never did anything but be the player he was in the 90s and win as he did hes gonna be ranked over shaq.

He did more in the 90s than Shaq did in his career far as what people look for in an all time great career. Combined with the fact he played his best ball?

Nobody should have a problem with him over Shaq.

[Kblaze8855]

I have a fundamental problem with people declaring what someone did in six seasons is greater than a HOF bound, top five player of all time, eighteen year career.

If my son can accomplish in his career what Jordan did from 89-90 to 03....or what shaq accomplished his entire career?

Id want him to do what Jordan did.

Not if the only reason he plays 10 seasons in injury...but for a whole career of how ever many years...

Give him MJs accomplishments and level of play over shaqs.

[AK47DR91]

I have a fundamental problem with people declaring what someone did in six seasons is greater than a HOF bound, top five player of all time, eighteen year career.
You're making it sound like those 6 Jordan championships seasons were just ordinary seasons. :oldlol:

I'm willing to bet you many all-time greats would trade their entire career just to have 6 seasons like that. Hell, I'm willing to bet Shaq would trade his career to have Jordan's 6 title seasons.

[RaininTwos]

He lose to the Pistons in 1990 in 7 games. Then lose to Orlando in 1995 after coming back retirement.

That's two playoff loses in the 90's.
OMG:facepalm

If the NBA started in 1990....how in the world is Jordan playing the 89-90 season?

Come on son.

These are the years that I'm talking about.

90-91
91-92
92-93

*retires*

Plays 17 games in 94-95 season.

95-96
96-97
97-98

*retires again*

01-02
02-03

*retires for the final time*

Bolded are his years of dominance.

[ripthekik]

Lebron is a better player than Kobe and has had 5 years of true dominance in the league. Championships aren't everything, I know that assertion is absurd to Kobe fans who want to credit him for 5 rings even though he has never once in his career been the clear cut best player in the league.

I am factoring in player and career. Be thankful that I am factoring in career, because as an individual player Kobe probably wouldn't crack the top 10.
Yo I just saw this. No problem, but you forgot Lebron's all time choking performances?? 5 years of true dominance in the league and the greatest choking job as well.
Taking that into consideration, Kobe's career > him.

[AK47DR91]

OMG:facepalm

If the NBA started in 1990....how in the world is Jordan playing the 89-90 season?

Come on son.

These are the years that I'm talking about.

90-91
91-92
92-93

*retires*

Plays 17 games in 94-95 season.

95-96
96-97
97-98

*retires again*

01-02
02-03

*retires for the final time*

Bolded are his years of dominance.
And my response to that was, how come Jordan can only have dominating years when he won it all....while Shaq, as you said, have dominated the league since he entered the league as a rookie.

Are you saying Shaq in the 90's was just as dominating as Jordan was in the 90's?

[ripthekik]

I would have Shaq as number one. I can't believe ISH is so hung up on Jordan's nuts these days to choose what, 8 years of him over a whole career of Shaq? WTF?
:roll: A guy who listens to justin bieber really should not talk about MJ.
You're either a really old guy who listens to JB which is really creepy,
or you're a young teenager who never saw MJ. Which are you?

[RaininTwos]

And my response to that was, how come Jordan can only have dominating years when he won it all....while Shaq, as you said, have dominated the league since he entered the league as a rookie.

Are you saying Shaq in the 90's was just as dominating as Jordan was in the 90's?

You are twisting my words like a journalist. Stop.

Jordan's dominant years just happen to coincidentally be the years he won a title. He's had dominant years before winning a title but this thread is about everything since 1990. That just happens to be the case for him because it's hard to dominate when you aren't playing. Visit basketball reference or something.

I said that Shaq was a force from his rookie year onward, I didn't say that he was dominant from 92.

[mehyaM24]

You are twisting my words like a journalist. Stop.

Jordan's dominant years just happen to coincidentally be the years he won a title. He's had dominant years before winning a title but this thread is about everything since 1990. That just happens to be the case for him because it's hard to dominate when you aren't playing. Visit basketball reference or something.

I said that Shaq was a force from his rookie year onward, I didn't say that he was dominant from 92.

you dont know shit about basketball. quit posting, idiot.

shaq is my favorite player all-time, but mj was dominant(relative to league play) from '90-98. 6 Finals Mvps, 6 championships, 4 Mvps, 7 scoring titles. in 7 years, jordan had a better resume than shaq's ENTIRE career.

[RaininTwos]

you dont know shit about basketball. quit posting, idiot.
:applause:

Who are you?

[AK47DR91]

You are twisting my words like a journalist. Stop.

Jordan's dominant years just happen to coincidentally be the years he won a title. He's had dominant years before winning a title but this thread is about everything since 1990. That just happens to be the case for him because it's hard to dominate when you aren't playing. Visit basketball reference or something.

I said that Shaq was a force from his rookie year onward, I didn't say that he was dominant from 92.
I wasn't even twisting anything around. You calling me out on my views of Jordan in the 90's. I gave enough support for my argument, while all you did was called me a dumb ass and an idiot.

Even with Jordan's 6 championship years. You honestly think Shaq's career was better? You think Shaq wouldn't trade to have 6 seasons like Jordan had over his career?

Why don't you admit, you came off as a moron for basically devaluing Jordan's 6 championship years? and yes, "I have a fundamental problem with people declaring what someone did in six seasons is greater than a HOF bound, top five player of all time, eighteen year career" = discrediting Jordan's dominating years. You say it as if those 6 seasons were just any other ordinary seasons. Give me a break, man!

[mehyaM24]

:applause:

Who are you?

someone who knows basketball....

you are the only poster that thinks having jordan>shaq is blasphemous. :lol

[RaininTwos]

If my son can accomplish in his career what Jordan did from 89-90 to 03....or what shaq accomplished his entire career?

Id want him to do what Jordan did.

Not if the only reason he plays 10 seasons in injury...but for a whole career of how ever many years...

Give him MJs accomplishments and level of play over shaqs.

This is why ranking people can never work. Instead of looking at peak play, prime, longevity, accomplishments, people focus on whatever makes their argument look good and leave it at that.

Look at the whole picture.

[RaininTwos]

I wasn't even twisting anything around. You calling me out on my views of Jordan in the 90's. I gave enough support for my argument, while all you did was called me a dumb ass and an idiot.

Even with Jordan's 6 championship years. You honestly think Shaq's career was better? You think Shaq wouldn't trade to have 6 seasons like Jordan had over his career?

Why don't you admit, you came off as a moron for basically devaluing Jordan's 6 championship years? and yes, "I have a fundamental problem with people declaring what someone did in six seasons is greater than a HOF bound, top five player of all time, eighteen year career" = discrediting Jordan's dominating years. You say it as if those 6 seasons were just any other ordinary seasons. Give me a break, man!

You posted a list of Jordan's achievements since 1990. Must have taken a lot of thinking to come up with that. As if that's all we rank people off of.

I say it as if they were six years. How is saying the right amount of years discrediting/devaluing something?

[ripthekik]

someone who knows basketball....

you are the only poster that thinks having jordan>shaq is blasphemous. :lol
Nah, he's just a poster who's a big fan of Justin Bieber.
Baby baby baby ohhhh
or maybe he's listening to boyfriend?

[AK47DR91]

You posted a list of Jordan's achievements since 1990. Must have taken a lot of thinking to come up with that. As if that's all we rank people off of.

I say it as if they were six years. How is saying the right amount of years discrediting/devaluing something?Oh my god! :facepalm

You realized those 6 seasons pretty much defined Jordan's legacy? It's as if I were to call Shaq's three-peat as "those 3 years" like they were ordinary.

Which would you say is better? Shaq's 3-peat or Dirk's career. By your stance, you would say Dirk's career, correct? Well, not for me. I'd take "Shaq's 3 years" over Dirk's career. Am I a dumb ass for picking Shaq's 3-peat over Dirk's career?

[RaininTwos]

Oh my god! :facepalm

You realized those 6 seasons pretty much defined Jordan's legacy? It's as if I wever to take call Shaq's three-peat as "those 3 years" like they were ordinary.

The f*ck are you even talking about? I have to jizz over Jordan's years or else you have a problem with them? They were six seasons. I said "six seasons". How is that taking a shot a Jordan?


Which would you say is better? Shaq's 3-peat or Dirk's career. By your stance, you would say Dirk's career, correct? Well, not for me. I'd take "Shaq's 3 years" over Dirk's career.
Better isn't the same as greater.

[Kblaze8855]

This is why ranking people can never work. Instead of looking at peak play, prime, longevity, accomplishments, people focus on whatever makes their argument look good and leave it at that.

Look at the whole picture.

3 of the 4 things you listed Jordan still has the advantage 90s on. And longevity is clearly on Shaqs side because you cut off jordans early career and assume he came in at 26. But when you have to rely on non basketball elements its obvious which way its leaning. Jordan did more legacy wise in the 90s as shaq did in his career and he played as well as or better than Shaq ever did as well. When both of those are on your side its clear who is on top.

[AK47DR91]

The f*ck are you even talking about? I have to jizz over Jordan's years or else you have a problem with them? They were six seasons. I said "six seasons". How is that taking a shot a Jordan?


Better isn't the same as greater.
Because you're not factoring in the 6 rings, 6 F-MVP, 4 MVPs, and all that other shit by just calling it "six seasons." There are all-time great stats, awards, titles, accolades within those seasons.

----
I'm just asking you which would you say is better. Or greater if you choose.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

3 of the 4 things you listed Jordan still has the advantage 90s on. And longevity is clearly on Shaqs side because you cut off jordans early career and assume he came in at 26. But when you have to rely on non basketball elements its obvious which way its leaning. Jordan did more legacy wise in the 90s as shaq did in his career and he played as well as or better than Shaq ever did as well. When both of those are on your side its clear who is on top.

This. Like you said though, it's still close between the two.

[AK47DR91]

This. Like you said though, it's still close between the two.
And to make myself clear. I said Shaq's three-peat is just as good as Jordan's first three-peat, both are top 2 peak all-time. But with Jordan's 2nd three-peat, it puts his 90's years above Shaq's career in my opinion. You can even say those two 3-peat years put Jordan over everybody, so it ain't like I'm dissing Shaq's career or anything.

But RaininTwos somehow thinks it's blasphemous to think Jordan's 6 championship is better than Shaq's career. It's not a ridiculous statement when those 6 seasons defined Jordan's legacy.

[necya]

how Johnny Kilroy at 1st is debatable ?? :wtf:

[RaininTwos]

Because you're not factoring in the 6 rings, 6 F-MVP, 4 MVPs, and all that other shit by just calling it "six seasons." There are all-time great stats, awards, titles, accolades within those seasons.

I know all of his accolades, why on earth would I keep restating them?

[RaininTwos]

3 of the 4 things you listed Jordan still has the advantage 90s on. And longevity is clearly on Shaqs side because you cut off jordans early career and assume he came in at 26. But when you have to rely on non basketball elements its obvious which way its leaning. Jordan did more legacy wise in the 90s as shaq did in his career and he played as well as or better than Shaq ever did as well. When both of those are on your side its clear who is on top.

What are these non-basketball elements? :wtf:

[raid09]

This is why ranking people can never work. Instead of looking at peak play, prime, longevity, accomplishments, people focus on whatever makes their argument look good and leave it at that.

Look at the whole picture.

I'm glad you gave us a criteria to work off of for this thread here.

Peak play: Jordan, arguable
Prime: Jordan
Accomplishments: Jordan...even AFTER cutting off half of his career
Longevity: Shaq, due to the nature of this thread

...? What is the problem with ranking Jordan first, from YOUR criteria?

[fpliii]

alphabetically:

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
Dwyane Wade

that's 12, but I can't cut two guys out

[RaininTwos]

I'm glad you gave us a criteria to work off of for this thread here.

Peak play: Shaq
Prime: Shaq
Accomplishments: Jordan...even AFTER cutting off half of his career
Longevity: Shaq, due to the nature of this thread

...? What is the problem with ranking Jordan first, from YOUR criteria?
Those are my picks.

[AK47DR91]

Those are my picks.
Why do you say Shaq had a better peak and prime than Jordan?

What are Shaq's peak and prime, and Jordan's?

[Deuce Bigalow]

alphabetically:

Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
LeBron James
Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Scottie Pippen
David Robinson
Dwyane Wade

that's 12, but I can't cut two guys out
I want to see your rankings fpliii

[fpliii]

I want to see your rankings fpliii

from 1990 on, or all-time?

[Deuce Bigalow]

from 1990 on, or all-time?
from 1990, I've seen your all-time list already on ESPN

[fpliii]

from 1990, I've seen your all-time list already on ESPN

(1) Michael Jordan
(1A) Kobe Bryant (yep, I went there)
(3) Tim Duncan
(4) Shaquille O'Neal
(5) Hakeem Olajuwon
(6) LeBron James
(7) Kevin Garnett
(7A) Dwyane Wade
(7B) Dirk Nowitzki
(10) Karl Malone
(10A) David Robinson
(10B) Scottie Pippen

my all-time list is currently in flux, so good thing you didn't ask for it (three-way tie with Jordan, Magic, Russ at the top)

[Deuce Bigalow]

(1) Michael Jordan
(1A) Kobe Bryant (yep, I went there)
(3) Tim Duncan
(4) Shaquille O'Neal
(5) Hakeem Olajuwon
(6) LeBron James
(7) Kevin Garnett
(7A) Dwyane Wade
(7B) Dirk Nowitzki
(10) Karl Malone
(10A) David Robinson
(10B) Scottie Pippen

my all-time list is currently in flux, so good thing you didn't ask for it (three-way tie with Jordan, Magic, Russ at the top)
That's pretty good. I don't agree with Kobe being 1B though.
I think my list would be the same except I would put Shaq #2.

[Freedom Kid7]

Hrm...
1. Jordan
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Kobe
6. James
7. Garnett
8. David Robinson
9. Isiah Thomas (best years came in the 90s)
10. Oh God I'm not sure. Maybe Stockton. I dunno.

[fpliii]

That's pretty good. I don't agree with Kobe being 1B though.
I think my list would be the same except I would put Shaq #2.

I'd agree, but there's a lot of attitude stuff I can't get past regarding Shaq...the "I get hurt on company time, I'll heal on company time" in particular makes you look at everything a little differently

he's my favorite player of all-time but he's a bit of a tool, and cost himself and his teammates further chances at championships by behaving like a child

still a sick player though, top 5 all-time peak :rockon:

[NugzHeat3]

Isiah Thomas' best years came in the 90s?

He was on the decline ever since the second championship run.

And you're really going to take like 4-5 seasons of a past-prime Isiah over I dunno, a whole bunch of players?

[Smoke117]

Hrm...
1. Jordan
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Kobe
6. James
7. Garnett
8. David Robinson
9. Isiah Thomas (best years came in the 90s)
10. Oh God I'm not sure. Maybe Stockton. I dunno.

:biggums:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'd agree, but there's a lot of attitude stuff I can't get past regarding Shaq...the "I get hurt on company time, I'll heal on company time" in particular makes you look at everything a little differently

he's my favorite player of all-time but he's a bit of a tool, and cost himself and his teammates further chances at championships by behaving like a child

still a sick player though, top 5 all-time peak :rockon:
I'm a Kobe fan, but I would say Kobe cost his team a championship in '04. 22 ppg on 38% in the '04 Finals...:facepalm
Shaq had 26 ppg on 61%, dominant yet again in the Finals.

Why do you think Kobe is better than Shaq?

[Freedom Kid7]

Isiah Thomas' best years came in the 90s?

He was on the decline ever since the second championship run.

And you're really going to take like 4-5 seasons of a past-prime Isiah over I dunno, a whole bunch of players?
I would take 1990 Isiah over 90's Stockton. Now that I think about, I might have said something silly (I'd still put '90 Thomas at #9 though)

[Smoke117]

I would take 1990 Isiah over 90's Stockton. Now that I think about, I might have said something silly (I'd still put '90 Thomas at #9 though)


So Five years of Isiah Thomas is better than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Scottie Pippen etc? They all have five seasons from 1990 better than he had in that span. You are just crazy.

[fpliii]

I'm a Kobe fan, but I would say Kobe cost his team a championship in '04. 22 ppg on 38% in the '04 Finals...:facepalm
Shaq had 26 ppg on 61%, dominant yet again in the Finals.

Why do you think Kobe is better than Shaq?

04 was a weird situation...we haven't seen anything like that happen in league history; it's not so much that he shot LA out of the Finals, but so much went wrong; I think the entire organization felt they'd get more from Malone as well (which clearly was not the case)

we'll never see something like that happen again IMO

the way I figure, in terms of playoff success they're about tied (I give them each half credit for 01, Shaq full for 00, 02, Kobe full for 09, 08), but Kobe's just been more reliable over the years

he'll shoot you out of some games, but at least you know what you're getting

once Shaq fed his ego, I don't think he gave a damn about the entire situation (plus the free throw thing...it's not a deal breaker here but when he's not dominating it certainly hurts his case)

maybe I'm reaching a bit much with the psychological aspect (re: Shaq), but that's just how I see it :confusedshrug:

idk man

[Freedom Kid7]

So Five years of Isiah Thomas is better than Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Dirk Nowitzki, Scottie Pippen etc? They all have five seasons from 1990 better than he had in that span. You are just crazy.
I said 1990 Isiah in the post above yours. And to your response, I would take 1990 Isiah over those guys in their best season.

[AK47DR91]

04 was a weird situation...we haven't seen anything like that happen in league history; it's not so much that he shot LA out of the Finals, but so much went wrong; I think the entire organization felt they'd get more from Malone as well (which clearly was not the case)

we'll never see something like that happen again IMO

the way I figure, in terms of playoff success they're about tied (I give them each half credit for 01, Shaq full for 00, 02, Kobe full for 09, 08), but Kobe's just been more reliable over the years

he'll shoot you out of some games, but at least you know what you're getting

once Shaq fed his ego, I don't think he gave a damn about the entire situation (plus the free throw thing...it's not a deal breaker here but when he's not dominating it certainly hurts his case)

maybe I'm reaching a bit much with the psychological aspect (re: Shaq), but that's just how I see it :confusedshrug:

idk man
Shaq gets no credit for 2006 Heat run? He was still the best center, too MVP caliber player from 2004-06 if I can recall correctly.

BTW, Kobe was just as big of a headcase as Shaq was. Shaq at least didn't show it on the floor.

[Smoke117]

I said 1990 Isiah in the post above yours. And to your response, I would take 1990 Isiah over those guys in their best season.


Well you are in the wrong thread then pal. This is a top 10 list if the NBA started in 1990. Not single out a single season and make a list.

[Deuce Bigalow]

04 was a weird situation...we haven't seen anything like that happen in league history; it's not so much that he shot LA out of the Finals, but so much went wrong; I think the entire organization felt they'd get more from Malone as well (which clearly was not the case)

we'll never see something like that happen again IMO

the way I figure, in terms of playoff success they're about tied (I give them each half credit for 01, Shaq full for 00, 02, Kobe full for 09, 08), but Kobe's just been more reliable over the years

he'll shoot you out of some games, but at least you know what you're getting

once Shaq fed his ego, I don't think he gave a damn about the entire situation (plus the free throw thing...it's not a deal breaker here but when he's not dominating it certainly hurts his case)

maybe I'm reaching a bit much with the psychological aspect (re: Shaq), but that's just how I see it :confusedshrug:

idk man
It's just weird coming from a Shaq fan

I don't know, sometimes I feel Kobe is very underrated at times and other times he's overrated.

[Freedom Kid7]

Well you are in the wrong thread then pal. This is a top 10 list if the NBA started in 1990. Not single out a single season and make a list.
Okay.:milton . Replace him with Dirk then.

[fpliii]

It's just weird coming from a Shaq fan

I don't know, sometimes I feel Kobe is very underrated at times and other times he's overrated.

lol

I may be weighing the off-the-court stuff a bit much, but I really think he did a lot of damage to the Lakers franchise before he left

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol

I may be weighing the off-the-court stuff a bit much, but I really think he did a lot of damage to the Lakers franchise before he left
What did he do?

I I heard he said something like pay me 30 mill Buss or something like that :lol

But I still can't believe that he dissed Kobe back in that rap in '08. :facepalm That's embarrassing. Why? Just why did he do that.

[AK47DR91]

What did the Lakers get for that Shaq trade? Odom, Butler, who else, what else?

[Ne 1]

04 was a weird situation...we haven't seen anything like that happen in league history; it's not so much that he shot LA out of the Finals, but so much went wrong; I think the entire organization felt they'd get more from Malone as well (which clearly was not the case)

we'll never see something like that happen again IMO

the way I figure, in terms of playoff success they're about tied (I give them each half credit for 01, Shaq full for 00, 02, Kobe full for 09, 08), but Kobe's just been more reliable over the years

he'll shoot you out of some games, but at least you know what you're getting

once Shaq fed his ego, I don't think he gave a damn about the entire situation (plus the free throw thing...it's not a deal breaker here but when he's not dominating it certainly hurts his case)

maybe I'm reaching a bit much with the psychological aspect (re: Shaq), but that's just how I see it :confusedshrug:

idk man


Actually looking back, I'm surprised that the '04 team even got to the Finals. Shaq was out of shape and often injured that year, Karl Malone was 40 years old, Payton was also aging and didn't buy into the triangle offense and criticized it, Kobe who was going through the trial, flying back and forth, sometimes in the same day as a game. Not to mention they had a really weak bench. The Kobe-Shaq feud was still going on and was more heated than ever. Malone and Payton both called Shaq out on sandbagging, Kobe accused Malone of hitting on his wife. All while that was a transitioning year for the team.

Talk about distractions. If anyone remembers that Finals, Chauncey absolutely destroyed Payton, Malone got injured in the WCF and then Detroit's defense basically doubled and tripled Kobe whenever he had the ball forcing someone else to beat them. Yeah the Lakers were talented, but even as a Laker fan, I have to say that team had horrible chemistry. Kobe and Shaq carried them, but man, no team that I can remember had that many problems going on.

Don't get me wrong Kobe was horrendous that series, but he wasn't the sole reason they lost. The rest of the team outside Shaq shot 33%, Malone was injured, Shaq's lazy play defensively and on the boards, and Payton's crappy play. It's definitely wasn't all Kobe's fault. The biggest blow-out loss came in the game where he only had 13 shots, so saying it came down to Kobe shooting them out of the Finals is revisionist history.

[fpliii]

What did he do?

I I heard he said something like pay me 30 mill Buss or something like that :lol

But I still can't believe that he dissed Kobe back in that rap in '08. :facepalm That's embarrassing. Why? Just why did he do that.

salary demands, throwing Kobe under the bus, damaging the culture by sitting out practices, setting poor examples by not recovering from injuries/training during the offseason, etc.

well, at least we got some gems...like being privy to the fact that he got a vasectomy at some point prior to the rap and the vlade song :lol

[KobeBaRyant]

Jordan
Kobe
LeBron
Shaq
Olajuwon
Malone
Reggie
Barkley
Garnett
Dirk

[DaSeba5]

What did the Lakers get for that Shaq trade? Odom, Butler, who else, what else?

Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a first round pick.

[fpliii]

Actually looking back, I'm surprised that the '04 team even got to the Finals. Shaq was out of shape and often injured that year, Karl Malone was 40 years old, Payton was also aging and didn't buy into the triangle offense and criticized it, Kobe who was going through the trial, flying back and forth, sometimes in the same day as a game. Not to mention they had a really weak bench. The Kobe-Shaq feud was still going on and was more heated than ever. Malone and Payton both called Shaq out on sandbagging, Kobe accused Malone of hitting on his wife. All while that was a transitioning year for the team.

Talk about distractions. If anyone remembers that Finals, Chauncey absolutely destroyed Payton, Malone got injured in the WCF and then Detroit's defense basically doubled and tripled Kobe whenever he had the ball forcing someone else to beat them. Yeah the Lakers were talented, but even as a Laker fan, I have to say that team had horrible chemistry. Kobe and Shaq carried them, but man, no team that I can remember had that many problems going on.

Don't get me wrong Kobe was horrendous that series, but he wasn't the sole reason they lost the series. The rest of the team outside Shaq of shot 33%, Malone was injured, Shaq's lazy play defensively and on the boards, and Payton's crappy play. It's definitely wasn't all Kobe's fault. The biggest blow-out loss came in the game where he only had 13 shots, so saying it came down to Kobe shotting them out of the Finals is revisionist history.

pretty much this, reps to you my man for saying this so completely and eloquently :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

salary demands, throwing Kobe under the bus, damaging the culture by sitting out practices, setting poor examples by not recovering from injuries/training during the offseason, etc.

well, at least we got some gems...like being privy to the fact that he got a vasectomy at some point prior to the rap and the vlade song :lol
Didn't Kobe throw Shaq under the bus?

Saying like "Shaq did it all the time"..cheating, when he got caught :lol

[AK47DR91]

Caron Butler, Lamar Odom, Brian Grant and a first round pick.
Huge steal for the Heat considering they won a title with Shaq.

Same with the Pau Gasol Memphis to Lakers trade. Huge steal for the Lakers. Some Laker fans will say that Memphis got better, well that still isn't as good as getting two championships.

[fpliii]

Didn't Kobe throw Shaq under the bus?

Saying like "Shaq did it all the time"..cheating, when he got caught :lol

lol cmon man, Kobe earned a free shot or three

[DaSeba5]

Huge steal for the Heat considering they won a title with Shaq.

Same with the Pau Gasol Memphis to Lakers trade. Huge steal for the Lakers. Some Laker fans will say that Memphis got better, well that still isn't as good as getting two championships.

Part of me wanted to see those players grow up together kind of like OKC, but it brought us our first title so I can't complain.

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol cmon man, Kobe earned a free shot or three
But still, Kobe snitched on Shaq

[RaininTwos]

Why do you say Shaq had a better peak and prime than Jordan?

What are Shaq's peak and prime, and Jordan's?

Most of Jordan's peak/prime were in the late eighties.

[mehyaM24]

Most of Jordan's peak/prime were in the late eighties.

:roll:

[Round Mound]

1-Jordan
2-Hakeem
3-Shaq
4-Barkley
5-Malone
6-Robinson
7-Ewing
8-Pippen
9-Hill (pre Injuries)
10-Stockton