Which Top 10 Player Is In Danger of Losing Their Spot Next

[SilkkTheShocker]

One more ring or MVP and Lebron is clearly in the top 10 all-time. Who gets the boot?

[Heavincent]

Hakeem (maybe).

[SilkkTheShocker]

Hakeem (maybe).


Looking that way. OT, but how do you see the Jets doing this season?

[Quickening]

Kobe is at ten, so him I guess...

[Umad101]

Bill Russell, Hakeem or Duncan

[Boston C's]

http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57088/spongebob/images/f/fd/300px-Mystery.jpg

[Yung D-Will]

Kobe.

No disrespect to him, but Lebron's peak dominance would give him the edge.

[Heavincent]

Looking that way. OT, but how do you see the Jets doing this season?

Anywhere from 7-9 to 10-6. They have a very talented defense but the offense will probably be erratic and uneven. They should be better than last year though. They added a lot of speed and athleticism to the roster and the safety position has been addressed.

[get these NETS]

lebron's rise hurts bird more than anybody...same position.... and similiar stat lines

super scorers, rebounds...great assist numbers for position

bron already has the mvps.....if he's figured it out and wins few more rings....he's gonna be viewed as the goat sf

[fatboy11]

One more ring or MVP and Lebron is clearly in the top 10 all-time. Who gets the boot?

Wouldn't it make sense to list your top 10? Or is there a universal top 10 all-time list I don't know about?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Kobe/Duncan

[RRR3]

Wouldn't it make sense to list your top 10? Or is there a universal top 10 all-time list I don't know about?
General consensus on ISH seems to be that these players are the top 10

(no order)
Mj
KAJ
Wilt
Kobe
Hakeem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic

[fatboy11]

General consensus on ISH seems to be that these players are the top 10

(no order)
Mj
KAJ
Wilt
Kobe
Hakeem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic

Hate to say it, but it would probably the Dream (if that's the list we're going with).

[SilkkTheShocker]

Wouldn't it make sense to list your top 10? Or is there a universal top 10 all-time list I don't know about?


Honestly, I never take the time to make an order of my top 10. I have trouble putting ordering Kobe, Duncan, and Shaq.

But in general most people have some order of:

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Russell
Shaq
Duncan
Kobe
Hakeem
Wilt

[SilkkTheShocker]

Anywhere from 7-9 to 10-6. They have a very talented defense but the offense will probably be erratic and uneven. They should be better than last year though. They added a lot of speed and athleticism to the roster and the safety position has been addressed.


Agreed. Thanks for the analysis.

[arifgokcen]

Going by general rankings
Probably either hakeem or kobe.Hakeem is less popular among fans so kobe at #9 and hakeem at #10.
I would say hakeem

[StateOfMind12]

Kobe/Duncan
Agreed, Kobe and Duncan are 9/10 on my list and if LeBron wins a ring next season in 2012 fashion then he will surpass both of them.

[kennethgriffin]

LOL@ people saying kobe

:roll:

why do people even argue with them

they dont even believe themselves

[INDI]

General consensus on ISH seems to be that these players are the top 10

(no order)
Mj
KAJ
Wilt
Kobe
Hakeem
Shaq
Russell
Duncan
Bird
Magic

Yeah I agree with this. My only issue with a top ten is how in the world can we consistently leave out Oscar robertson when the dude has possibly the most dominant stats beside wilt and he has the league accomplishments to go along with it (allstar, MVP, championship)

[INDI]

Another thing, if rings was not considered, would Russell be an absolute lock in the top ten?

[Smoke117]

Kobe is not a top 10 player, so you can't lose something you've never had.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

no one...not anytime soon.

[alwaysunny]

LOL@ people saying kobe

:roll:

why do people even argue with them

they dont even believe themselves



I know you rock that avatar as a mockery to emphasize the '0.5 rings', but on a glance at your name it actually looks like you're rooting for LeBron. Might wanna get a different picture for your purpose.

[IGotACoolStory]

I know you rock that avatar as a mockery to emphasize the '0.5 rings', but on a glance at your name it actually looks like you're rooting for LeBron. Might wanna get a different picture for your purpose.

I agree. Briefly going over threads, all I see is a LeBron avatar until I see the username and realize the poster's agenda.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Tim Duncan, I have him as #10 on my list

[Deuce Bigalow]

1 more ring will not put Lebron in the top 10

1 more ring would put Lebron 11th behind Hakeem.

[WockaVodka]

It would be a matter of how he performs rather than if he just simply gets those awards.

So because of that I will not answer this hypothetical because too many variables come into play.

[Tenchi Ryu]

A Kobe Hater is gonna say Kobe.

most non biased people know Hakeem is the one heading out the door if the time comes to out a current top 10.

[ThaRegul8r]

Whichever player the person doing the ranking likes the least or thinks the least of.

Simple.

[Heavincent]

Kobe is not a top 10 player, so you can't lose something you've never had.

:roll:

Good one.

[tmacattack33]

F the "legacy" lists.

I have seen people on here basically admit that they are complete BS.

For example, ive seen ppl on here admit to this...

Here are two situations:

1. Kobe plays at an 80 level (about Joe Johnson level) next year. He gets Dwight. LA wins championship.

2. Kobe plays at an 90 level (about top 5 level) next year. Dwight stays with Orlando (or Brooklyn or whatever). LA loses in the second round again.


There are some on here who have said that situation A would move him up on the legacy list, while B would not do much for his legacy.


That's just hysterical, and it shows how stupid this "legacy" shit is. If kobe plays at a top 5 level next yr, that is impressive. If he plays like at a joe johnson level, that's just meh. Championship or not.

[L.Kizzle]

Jordan.

[RRR3]

:roll: :roll: :roll: It's hilarious how LEBRON winning a ring has caused Kobe to miraculously jump up on all these fools' all-time list. LeBron comin' for Kobe, get scurred:pimp:

[miles berg]

I have Kobe ranked at #10 so it would be him getting passed.

[RIP CITY]

I'd say Hakeem would be the player to drop. Might take LeBron longer than just next year though. But with another Championship along with a regular season MVP and Finals MVP you can definitely make a case for him over Hakeem, not anyone else in the Top 10 though, he'll need more than that to surpass them IMO.

[lilgodfather1]

Hakeem if he wins a title/FMVP.

But really it depends on how he does it. If he wins an MVP/FMVP then he could easily be moved up farther.

4 MVP's, 2 FMVP's. 21,000 points is an amazing resume.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not sure why people are saying Kobe. He is no lower than 8 on the all time list Imo

[StateOfMind12]

Not sure why people are saying Kobe. He is no lower than 8 on the all time list Imo
What does your top 10 list look like then? Cause usually I see Kobe at #9 and I have him at #9 as well. Do you have him above Duncan and Hakeem? or did you follow the RealGM route and have him above Wilt?

[DatAsh]

What does your top 10 list look like then? Cause usually I see Kobe at #9 and I have him at #9 as well. Do you have him above Duncan and Hakeem? or did you follow the RealGM route and have him above Wilt?
Kobe above Wilt :biggums:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe above Wilt :biggums:
He has a better career. :confusedshrug:
Also Bird, Shaq, and Duncan as well.

[SilkkTheShocker]

What does your top 10 list look like then? Cause usually I see Kobe at #9 and I have him at #9 as well. Do you have him above Duncan and Hakeem? or did you follow the RealGM route and have him above Wilt?
I have Kobe over Wilt and Hakeem. Still behind Duncan and Shaq for now though

[jlauber]

It has already been mentioned, but most all-time Top-10 "lists" include Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem...in some order.

However, instead of constantly arguing a Top-10 list, maybe it is about time to have a more permanent Top-12 to Top-15 list...in any order.

Players like Moses, Lebron, Oscar, Dr. J, and West all have near "immortal" resumes.

And really, why make a big deal out of ranking Kobe over Bird, or Duncan over Shaq, etc. (and in the process rip the other player)?

It's a TEAM game, too. Then you have the "competition" and "era" arguments, as well. Those that constantly bring up the quality of Hakeem's teammates in his title runs, ignore the fact that his team's were not beating great rosters (hell, his '94 Rocket team that went 58-24 barely edged a 56-26 Knick team in seven games, with a roster that was no better than his own.) Does Hakeem winning a title against a bunch of no names have any more significance than Magic's Lakers beating Bird's Celtics?

Then there are often overlooked aspects, as well. IMHO, players like a Moses from '79 thru '83 (or longer) just dominated their peers...ALL of them. I have compared the Moses-Kareem H2H's before, but Moses not only outplayed Kareem in the majority of their 40 career H2H's, he was outplaying Gilmore, Lanier, Parish, et al. Same with Shaq from about '98 thru '02. You won't find very many games in which the best centers of that period outplayed Shaq. And Chamberlain's run throughout the entire decade of the 60's was perhaps the most dominant ever. He was routinely outplaying centers like Bellamy, Reed, Russell, Unseld, and Thurmond in the majority of their H2H's. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in that period in which he was outplayed, at least statistically and in many, he was just crushing his peers (of course, the Russell supporters will have legitimate arguments about "winning.")

The fact is/was, these all-time greats had played in different era's, against different teams and opposing greats, with different rosters, different coaches, and different systems.

If you could take all of these greats, put them in the same time frame, give them the same exact rosters (and all healthy), with the same exact coaches, and against the same opposition, then you could probably make a case as to how these players should be ranked. Wins and losses would ultimately determine their ranking.

Unfortunately, none of that is possible. Instead, they should all be applauded for just how great they were...especially at their peak.

[PickernRoller]

Lebron's already top 4 behind Magic, Kareem and Jordan. I was told from guys on ISH so it must be true.

[midatlantic09]

Bird or Duncan.

[fpliii]

It has already been mentioned, but most all-time Top-10 "lists" include Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem...in some order.

However, instead of constantly arguing a Top-10 list, maybe it is about time to have a more permanent Top-12 to Top-15 list...in any order.

Players like Moses, Lebron, Oscar, Dr. J, and West all have near "immortal" resumes.

And really, why make a big deal out of ranking Kobe over Bird, or Duncan over Shaq, etc. (and in the process rip the other player)?

It's a TEAM game, too. Then you have the "competition" and "era" arguments, as well. Those that constantly bring up the quality of Hakeem's teammates in his title runs, ignore the fact that his team's were not beating great rosters (hell, his '94 Rocket team that went 58-24 barely edged a 56-26 Knick team in seven games, with a roster that was no better than his own.) Does Hakeem winning a title against a bunch of no names have any more significance than Magic's Lakers beating Bird's Celtics?

Then there are often overlooked aspects, as well. IMHO, players like a Moses from '79 thru '83 (or longer) just dominated their peers...ALL of them. I have compared the Moses-Kareem H2H's before, but Moses not only outplayed Kareem in the majority of their 40 career H2H's, he was outplaying Gilmore, Lanier, Parish, et al. Same with Shaq from about '98 thru '02. You won't find very many games in which the best centers of that period outplayed Shaq. And Chamberlain's run throughout the entire decade of the 60's was perhaps the most dominant ever. He was routinely outplaying centers like Bellamy, Reed, Russell, Unseld, and Thurmond in the majority of their H2H's. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in that period in which he was outplayed, at least statistically and in many, he was just crushing his peers (of course, the Russell supporters will have legitimate arguments about "winning.")

The fact is/was, these all-time greats had played in different era's, against different teams and opposing greats, with different rosters, different coaches, and different systems.

If you could take all of these greats, put them in the same time frame, give them the same exact rosters (and all healthy), with the same exact coaches, and against the same opposition, then you could probably make a case as to how these players should be ranked. Wins and losses would ultimately determine their ranking.

Unfortunately, none of that is possible. Instead, they should all be applauded for just how great they were...especially at their peak.

I still have to work on those h2h's...I've been busy doing some stuff for APBR and nbastats.prv.pl (including creating game logs for the rest of the NBA 35th anniversary team 11 guys, but I'll get back to the three spreadsheets soon

btw I finally learned about the origin of those block numbers, from speaking with gorba and petroslav/Simic directly...evidently Matthew Shuh (Matt on APBR, I believe), got the numbers directly from newspaper clippings...here's the original message:

http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/86161487/file.html

so the discrepancies from actual game footage aren't necessarily systematic human error or the result of fabrication, but the result of the inconsistent tracking of blocks, as they were not an official box score stat at the time

everything else in that spreadsheet is 100% correct, and he has the sources downloaded for each individual linescore (available upon request)

On Topic: I'm not sure that LeBron making the top 10 will necessarily knock anyone out...nobody really seems to be a fringe player, so I don't think there will be a consensus

in reality though, it'll probably be Hakeem (for better or worse) or Duncan (I think Hakeem goes first since most decide close matchups in their lists using ring count)

I can't see it being Shaq (my favorite player all-time, but I think perhaps he's the guy who most SHOULD be bumped, depending on what one thinks about Hakeem) or Kobe (unless they meet in the Finals and LeBron destroys him head to head while they guard each other for a significant amount of time, both of which are unlikely)...then again, Kobe and Duncan bumped out West and Robertson on the 'consensus top 10 list' (minority of people had Dr. J, Moses Malone, Karl Malone, Havlicek there), so who knows what'll happen

:confusedshrug:

[PickernRoller]

Bird or Duncan.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :oldlol: :lol :facepalm

The disrespect to the top 10 all-time here is ginormous...Lebron sniffing top 14 to be generous. When did the majority of ISH started watching basketball? That should be an interesting poll - riddled with lies of course.

[midatlantic09]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :oldlol: :lol :facepalm

The disrespect to the top 10 all-time here is ginormous...Lebron sniffing top 14 to be generous. When did the majority of ISH started watching basketball? That should be an interesting poll - riddled with lies of course.

Bird is overrated and Duncan isn't better than Hakeem.

[PickernRoller]

Bird is overrated and Duncan isn't better than Hakeem.

According to you which can only mean one thing, a big@ss diarrhea dump.

http://lolpie.com/images/archive/content/1/1/taking-a-dump-on-your-dirty-head-rvbbc.jpg

[BrickingStar]

Kobe/Hakeem

[TheBigVeto]

Wilt.

[Lebron23]

Hakeem Olajuwon. Sorry master Hakeem.

[jlauber]

Wilt.

So, a Lebron that has one less ring, three less Finals (and was awful in two of his three...while Wilt was generally exceptional in his SIX), FIVE less scoring titles, NINE less FG% titles, ONE less apg title, ELEVEN less rebounding titles, probably some 100 less RECORDS, and one less MVP, (and Chamberlain SHOULD have won in '62 and '64) will leap-frog Chamberlain?

:facepalm

[TheBigVeto]

So, a Lebron that has one less ring, three less Finals (and was awful in two of his three...while Wilt was generally exceptional in his SIX), FIVE less scoring titles, NINE less FG% titles, ONE less apg title, ELEVEN less rebounding titles, probably some 100 less RECORDS, and one less MVP, (and Chamberlain SHOULD have won in '62 and '64) will leap-frog Chamberlain?

:facepalm

Yes.
Lebron doesn't have a crazed fan like you and he never joined the Lakers so he wins.

[unbreakable]

lebron needs 3 to surpass kobe. or duncan. 2 is not enough

however with 2 id give him the nod over hakeem

[lilblingy]

If lebron retired after winning 1 more ring he would take Hakeem's spot on my list at #10 of all time. I laugh at the people saying Kobe would get surpassed when we are supposed to be ranking greatest career. Kobe would still have 3 more rings than Lebron(same FMVP).

[riseagainst]

Lebron homers all say Kobe, which is ridiculous. Kobe is a lock for top 7. Lebron will have to bump Hakeem, duncan, and Shaq before doing so.

[SilkkTheShocker]

:roll: :roll: :roll: :oldlol: :lol :facepalm

The disrespect to the top 10 all-time here is ginormous...Lebron sniffing top 14 to be generous. When did the majority of ISH started watching basketball? That should be an interesting poll - riddled with lies of course.


You have been really insecure since the Finals. I hope you recover from your butt-hurt.

[Lebron23]

Yes.
Lebron doesn't have a crazed fan like you and he never joined the Lakers so he wins.

:oldlol: :oldlol: :oldlol:

But seriously 4 MVP and 2 Finals MVP > 1 MVP and 2 Finals MVP.

[kenny817]

Bird is overrated and Duncan isn't better than Hakeem.


****in idiots man I swear

[midatlantic09]

****in idiots man I swear

He is. Have you ever seen him actually play in a full game? Well, I have. The media has a lot to do with him being perceived as being great and I honestly don't consider him to be much better of a player than D Wade (D Wade is like a top 30 player of all-time).

[jongib369]

Well considering the defenses Kobe and Lebron go against...I guess it would HAVE to be kobe

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/michael-jordan-vs-real-old-school-defense/

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

and why the hell is everyone leaving this guy out of the top 10?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ee2Ag5GeMQ&feature=plcp

:biggums:

[pauk]

Considering Lebron is around 11-12 right now battling with Moses Malone and is in a fantastic situation right now to spam potentially alot more mvps, fmvps, championships and Lebron is only a constantly improving 27 year old (who at this age has accomplished more than even Michael Jordan at that age).....

Its very safe to say that maybe ALL top 10 guys are in danger.... the next guy on that list for Lebron to climb is Hakeem Olajuwon (depending how your top 10 list looks like, i have Hakeem at #10 behind Kobe at #9, then Duncan #8, then Shaq #7 and so on)

If this upcoming season ends up the same as the previous Lebron will have 4 x MVP, 2 x FMVP, 2 x Championships... thats enough to easily debate him over Hakeem and hell even Kobe (he has only 1 mvp, 2 fmvp and 2 "the man" championships) ...

[jongib369]

Oscar never won an MVP and Finals MVP.
How could he win MVP in a league with a dominating stat giant like chamberlain and a monopoly of a team called the celtics? 9 championships in the 60s alone...its hard to get finals MVP when you're going against a team with a handful of HOF's...Im DEFF not dissing Lebron though I love his game...he actually plays somewhat similar to oscar robertson...O didnt like to dunk though....I love all these players, choosing a top 10 is hard!

[Lebron23]

Considering Lebron is around 11-12 right now battling with Moses Malone and is in a fantastic situation right now to spam potentially alot more mvps, fmvps, championships and Lebron is only a constantly improving 27 year old (who at this age has accomplished more than even Michael Jordan at that age).....

Its very safe to say that maybe ALL top 10 guys are in danger.... the next guy on that list for Lebron to climb is Hakeem Olajuwon (depending how your top 10 list looks like, i have Hakeem at #10 behind Kobe at #9, then Duncan #8, then Shaq #7 and so on)

:applause: :applause: :applause:

[jongib369]

Oscar never won an MVP and Finals MVP.
Btw he did get an MVP

1959–60 Wilt Chamberlain* Center United States Philadelphia Warriors
1960–61 Bill Russell* (2) Center United States Boston Celtics (3)
1961–62 Bill Russell* (3) Center United States Boston Celtics (4)
1962–63 Bill Russell* (4) Center United States Boston Celtics (5)
1963–64 Oscar Robertson* Guard United States Cincinnati Royals
1964–65 Bill Russell* (5) Center United States Boston Celtics (6)
1965–66 Wilt Chamberlain* (2) Center United States Philadelphia 76ers
1966–67 Wilt Chamberlain* (3) Center United States Philadelphia 76ers (2)
1967–68 Wilt Chamberlain* (4) Center United States Philadelphia 76ers (3)
1968–69 Wes Unseld* Center/Forward United States Baltimore Bullets
1969–70 Willis Reed* Center/Forward United States New York Knicks
1970–71 Lew Alcindor*[e] Center United States Milwaukee Bucks
1971–72 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar*[e] (2) Center United States Milwaukee Bucks (2)

[riseagainst]

Oscar never won an MVP and Finals MVP.

:lol :lol

[Lebron23]

[QUOTE=jongib369]Btw he did get an MVP

1959

[INDI]

Oscar never won an MVP and Finals MVP.


Oscar won an mvp in the 63-64 season and has possibly the most dominant stats in league history outside of Wilt

[jongib369]

LeBron is just a better basketball player than the Big O. Oscar is a top 15 player of all time.
haha we will have to agree to disagree on that one...IMO Oscar is better but Im not going to try to change someones opinion...Yours is just as valid as mine...I just think Lebron wouldnt be AS effective if he played with the rules of the 90s and back...especially in the old days when the lane was filled with big men that would (to quote Ivan) "Crush you"...but not saying he wouldnt be a beast...Lebron, like ALL the greats could play in any era

if you want, check out the links I posted in my original post so you know what Im talking about.

[riseagainst]

LeBron is just a better basketball player than the Big O. Oscar is a top 15 player of all time.

based on what? Since Lebron homers like to compare by age:
by age 27: Oscar avged 30-10-11 Lebron avged 28-7-7

judged by actual seasons player (9) which is how comparisons should be made:
Oscar 30-9-11 Lebron 28-7-7

so how is Lebron "just a better basketball player than the Big O?"
inb4 "lebron has 3 mvps and oscar only has 1"
:lol

[Lebron23]

based on what? Since Lebron homers like to compare by age:
by age 27: Oscar avged 30-10-11 Lebron avged 28-7-7

judged by actual seasons player (9) which is how comparisons should be made:
Oscar 30-9-11 Lebron 28-7-7

so how is Lebron "just a better basketball player than the Big O?"
inb4 "lebron has 3 mvps and oscar only has 1"
:lol


Look at the record of Oscar Robertson's teams. LeBron is a better team player, and better post season performer than the Big O.

[riseagainst]

Look at the record of Oscar Robertson's teams. LeBron is a better team player, and better post season performer than the Big O.

Can you please back that up with actual evidence instead of just saying his team had a better record? Because if I remember correctly, it takes more than 1 person to win in a team game. Isn't that what Lebron fans always say whenever he loses? But when Lebron wins... "ohhh it was all Lebron carrying the team." I thought Lebron fans are huge on bringing up stats when comparing individual talent/skills. Why bring up team wins now?

[jongib369]

I'm not one to diss peoples opinions but if anyone thinks you should replace Wilt with lebron...

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7svamGKY71ru8un1o1_500.gif

[TheMarkMadsen]

Since when was Lebron considered top 12 all time?
:roll:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Since when was Lebron considered top 12 all time?
:roll:


You have always had an agenda against Lebron, f.aggot. Thats probably why you disagree. Not hard to understand.

[Raz]

Hakeem - but Bron isn't winning this season

[riseagainst]

You are a Troll.

yeah

[Hands of Iron]

Hate to say it, but it would probably the Dream (if that's the list we're going with).

If you view accomplishments through a black and white lens, maybe. Olajuwon had one of the most celebrated skillsets in the history of the game at any position and there's no greater testament to that than the fact that Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard and Lebron James have all come seeking lessons from him, 15+ years since he lifted his 2nd Larry O'Brien trophy.

It's feels pointless to just rattle off things such as All-NBA or All-Defense honors. Is it already lost on people that he played in an era of great centers? He was annually up against the likes of Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo for one or both of those of those honors as well as the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley and Malone for league MVP. How many of the above are in the consensus top ten? It's damn near half the list.

Accomplishment? We can start with the fact that he's the only player to win the MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year Award in the same season. The Rockets second-leading scorer throughout the 1994 playoffs was Vernon Maxwell who put up 13.8 ppg at a 37% clip. In the Finals, he led the Rockets from down 3-2 and bested an ATG Center in Patrick Ewing who also had help in the form of Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason.

In 1995, he managed to repeat which is notable in itself. The '95 Rockets are the lowest seeded team in NBA history (#6) to win the Finals. Not only were they the lowest seeded team, but they beat the four best teams in the NBA that year: The #3 seeded 60-win Jazz team, the #2 seeded (Pacific Champ) 59-win Suns team, #1 seeded 62-win San Antonio Spurs team and the Eastern Conference Champs, the #1 seeded 57-win Orlando Magic. This also represents the highest combined W-L any team has had to go through en route to a Championship. Led the Rockets from trailing 3-1 to beat the Suns in seven games. In the Conference Finals, he averaged 35/13/5/4 on 56% against - you guessed it - another All-Time Great Center in David Robinson, who just so happened to also be the NBA MVP and Defensive Player of the Year that season. Oh, he also had Dennis Rodman alongside him. In the Finals, yet another ATG Center in Shaquille O'Neal who while was yet to reach his prime, had managed to win the scoring title that season, lead the Magic to the #1 seed in the Conference and take care of the post-Grant, pre-Rodman Chicago Bulls in six games. Houston swept them, Olajuwon put up 30+ points in each contest and outplayed O'Neal contrary to revisionist history.

He may have "only" two rings, but they account for a whole hell of a lot when you consider some of the specifics. Face it, Olajuwon had less help than most, if not all of the 'Top 10' and his level of opposition where positional match-ups are concerned is profound. He faced three legitimately great Centers and bested all of them when it mattered most. He took the lowest seeded team ever to win the Finals and beat the the best four teams in the league in one playoff run and he's the only to sweep the MVP/FMVP/DPOY.

Hakeem in danger? Nah.

[Bigsmoke]

LeBron is my dude but he aint bumping Hakeem Olajuwon no time soon

[Hands of Iron]

Add Amare Stoudemire to the list of stars seeking Olajuwon's tutelage.

He's going nowhere. NOWHERE! :no: :applause:

[CavaliersFTW]

Bill Russell, Hakeem or Duncan
:roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Hakeem.

Alot of people praise Hakeem because of his '94 & '95 seasons, but alot of people forget that David Robinson & Patrick Ewing were considered to be better by most observers during the early 90's.

Hakeem was dominant in the 80's, dominant in the mid 90's, but for some reason he wasn't as dominant in the early 90's which I find odd.

[fsvr54]

Hate to say it, but it would probably the Dream (if that's the list we're going with).

hate to say it, but kobe is in no way better than Hakeem

[Doctor Rivers]

i am a troll.

:applause:

[SuperPippen]

Kobe or Hakeem, depending on who you have at #10.

[RaininTwos]

Kobe or Hakeem, depending on who you have at #10.

That off-season would be hell.

[Hands of Iron]

Hakeem.

Alot of people praise Hakeem because of his '94 & '95 seasons, but alot of people forget that David Robinson & Patrick Ewing were considered to be better by most observers during the early 90's.

Hakeem was dominant in the 80's, dominant in the mid 90's, but for some reason he wasn't as dominant in the early 90's which I find odd.

There was a definite downtime for him during Chaney's last couple years when they weren't running the offense through him as they would begin doing almost immediately under Rudy T. There were also some well publicized grumblings with himself and Rockets management. He wasn't traded and it worked out for the best.

As far as Ewing/Robinson, I don't know that Hakeem could've more emphatically proved the notion that they were better more false than he did against them in the NBA Finals and WCF respectively. For me, it takes precedent over everything else and they were on as equal of terms as you could possibly hope for amongst great players going head-to-head.

1994 NBA Finals:
Ewing: 18.9 PPG, 12.4 RPG, 1.7 APG, 4.3 BPG, 36.3% FG
Olajuwon: 26.9 PPG, 9.1 RPG, 3.6 APG, 3.9 BPG, 50.0% FG

1995 West Conf Finals:
Robinson: 23.8 PPG, 11.3 RPG, 2.7 APG, 2.2 BPG, 44.3% FG
Olajuwon: 35.3 PPG, 12.5 RPG, 5.0 APG, 4.2 BPG, 56.0% FG

Considering Robinson was both the MVP and DPOY on the #1 seed in the NBA when they met, it's one of the most impressive playoff series in history, really.

[riseagainst]

hate to say it, but kobe is in no way better than Hakeem

top 10 player of all time, not top 10 player individually. But even then.... I have kobe ahead of Hakeem.

[Hands of Iron]

top 10 player of all time, not top 10 player individually. But even then.... I have kobe ahead of Hakeem.

Depends on how you rate I guess and whether or not impact on the floor is taken into heavy consideration. On paper, Bryant has one of the most stacked resumes. I presented Hakeem's case a few posts up, noted some specifics in regards to circumstances and fleshed out the unique quality of some of his accomplishments.

[waseem780]

If you view accomplishments through a black and white lens, maybe. Olajuwon had one of the most celebrated skillsets in the history of the game at any position and there's no greater testament to that than the fact that Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard and Lebron James have all come seeking lessons from him, 15+ years since he lifted his 2nd Larry O'Brien trophy.

It's feels pointless to just rattle off things such as All-NBA or All-Defense honors. Is it already lost on people that he played in an era of great centers? He was annually up against the likes of Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo for one or both of those of those honors as well as the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley and Malone for league MVP. How many of the above are in the consensus top ten? It's damn near half the list.

Accomplishment? We can start with the fact that he's the only player to win the MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year Award in the same season. The Rockets second-leading scorer throughout the 1994 playoffs was Vernon Maxwell who put up 13.8 ppg at a 37% clip. In the Finals, he led the Rockets from down 3-2 and bested an ATG Center in Patrick Ewing who also had help in the form of Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason.

In 1995, he managed to repeat which is notable in itself. The '95 Rockets are the lowest seeded team in NBA history (#6) to win the Finals. Not only were they the lowest seeded team, but they beat the four best teams in the NBA that year: The #3 seeded 60-win Jazz team, the #2 seeded (Pacific Champ) 59-win Suns team, #1 seeded 62-win San Antonio Spurs team and the Eastern Conference Champs, the #1 seeded 57-win Orlando Magic. This also represents the highest combined W-L any team has had to go through en route to a Championship. Led the Rockets from trailing 3-1 to beat the Suns in seven games. In the Conference Finals, he averaged 35/13/5/4 on 56% against - you guessed it - another All-Time Great Center in David Robinson, who just so happened to also be the NBA MVP and Defensive Player of the Year that season. Oh, he also had Dennis Rodman alongside him. In the Finals, yet another ATG Center in Shaquille O'Neal who while was yet to reach his prime, had managed to win the scoring title that season, lead the Magic to the #1 seed in the Conference and take care of the post-Grant, pre-Rodman Chicago Bulls in six games. Houston swept them, Olajuwon put up 30+ points in each contest and outplayed O'Neal contrary to revisionist history.

He may have "only" two rings, but they account for a whole hell of a lot when you consider some of the specifics. Face it, Olajuwon had less help than most, if not all of the 'Top 10' and his level of opposition where positional match-ups are concerned is profound. He faced three legitimately great Centers and bested all of them when it mattered most. He took the lowest seeded team ever to win the Finals and beat the the best four teams in the league in one playoff run and he's the only to sweep the MVP/FMVP/DPOY.

Hakeem in danger? Nah.


nice post.. hakeem is arguably the most skilled player in basketball history.. more than other center greats Kareem, Wilt , Shaq..etc. people think he isnt a top 5 let alone top 2 just because he only has two rings../ if rings meant you are better then bill russel is GOAT but he's not but having/leading your team to ring is VERY important to be considered great and hakeem has 2 which is enough maybe if he had 0 i could say that he isnt top 10.. but again HAKEEM IS UNDERRATED JUST COZ HE ONLY HAS 2.

[waseem780]

hakeem is clearly better than tim duncan in everything..(even though he was great) only thing tim has on duncan is 4 rings...but hakeem has 2 and he was in jordan era which was way harder to win in then tim duncans championships.. (1999 against 8th seed knicks O.o , 2002 against Nets ahah j-kidd only good player , pistons hmm .. thats pretty good , and 22 year old lebron + scrubs..)

[Hands of Iron]

If you view accomplishments through a black and white lens, maybe. Olajuwon had one of the most celebrated skillsets in the history of the game at any position and there's no greater testament to that than the fact that Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard and Lebron James have all come seeking lessons from him, 15+ years since he lifted his 2nd Larry O'Brien trophy.

It's feels pointless to just rattle off things such as All-NBA or All-Defense honors. Is it already lost on people that he played in an era of great centers? He was annually up against the likes of Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo for one or both of those of those honors as well as the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley and Malone for league MVP. How many of the above are in the consensus top ten? It's damn near half the list.

Accomplishment? We can start with the fact that he's the only player to win the MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year Award in the same season. The Rockets second-leading scorer throughout the 1994 playoffs was Vernon Maxwell who put up 13.8 ppg at a 37% clip. In the Finals, he led the Rockets from down 3-2 and bested an ATG Center in Patrick Ewing who also had help in the form of Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason.

In 1995, he managed to repeat which is notable in itself. The '95 Rockets are the lowest seeded team in NBA history (#6) to win the Finals. Not only were they the lowest seeded team, but they beat the four best teams in the NBA that year: The #3 seeded 60-win Jazz team, the #2 seeded (Pacific Champ) 59-win Suns team, #1 seeded 62-win San Antonio Spurs team and the Eastern Conference Champs, the #1 seeded 57-win Orlando Magic. This also represents the highest combined W-L any team has had to go through en route to a Championship. Led the Rockets from trailing 3-1 to beat the Suns in seven games. In the Conference Finals, he averaged 35/13/5/4 on 56% against - you guessed it - another All-Time Great Center in David Robinson, who just so happened to also be the NBA MVP and Defensive Player of the Year that season. Oh, he also had Dennis Rodman alongside him. In the Finals, yet another ATG Center in Shaquille O'Neal who while was yet to reach his prime, had managed to win the scoring title that season, lead the Magic to the #1 seed in the Conference and take care of the post-Grant, pre-Rodman Chicago Bulls in six games. Houston swept them, Olajuwon put up 30+ points in each contest and outplayed O'Neal contrary to revisionist history.

He may have "only" two rings, but they account for a whole hell of a lot when you consider some of the specifics. Face it, Olajuwon had less help than most, if not all of the 'Top 10' and his level of opposition where positional match-ups are concerned is profound. He faced three legitimately great Centers and bested all of them when it mattered most. He took the lowest seeded team ever to win the Finals and beat the the best four teams in the league in one playoff run and he's the only to sweep the MVP/FMVP/DPOY.

Hakeem in danger? Nah.


nice post.. hakeem is arguably the most skilled player in basketball history.. more than other center greats Kareem, Wilt , Shaq..etc. people think he isnt a top 5 let alone top 2 just because he only has two rings../ if rings meant you are better then bill russel is GOAT but he's not but having/leading your team to ring is VERY important to be considered great and hakeem has 2 which is enough maybe if he had 0 i could say that he isnt top 10.. but again HAKEEM IS UNDERRATED JUST COZ HE ONLY HAS 2.

They are definitely two of the most satisfying titles you could really hope to win. It isn't normal to sweep the MVP/FMVP/DPOY in a single-season; it isn't normal to win the Finals with your No. 2 scorer putting up less than 14 ppg on 37% shooting throughout the playoffs; it isn't normal to take a 6-seed to a title nor go through the four best teams in the NBA while doing it; it's not normal to win back-to-back titles and out play 3 Other Hall of Famers at your position along the way.

[Freedom Kid7]

Agreed, Kobe and Duncan are 9/10 on my list and if LeBron wins a ring next season in 2012 fashion then he will surpass both of them.
I understand Kobe but not Duncan. Duncan was an elite player for years and was two plays away from having two more rings, or at least two final trips (if Ginobili doesn't have that screw up he did in 06 and if the .4 never happened).

Oh, and I could see an argument for either Hakeem or Kobe. I'd say Kobe would lose #10 though if Lebron gets another ring along with another FMVP.

[DatAsh]

I understand Kobe but not Duncan. Duncan was an elite player for years and was two plays away from having two more rings, or at least two final trips (if Ginobili doesn't have that screw up he did in 06 and if the .4 never happened).

Oh, and I could see an argument for either Hakeem or Kobe. I'd say Kobe would lose #10 though if Lebron gets another ring along with another FMVP.

If Lebron keeps winning(big if), I'd probably have to knock off Kobe or Duncan.

There's simply no way I could ever rank Duncan over Hakeem. Hakeem did almost everything on court that Duncan did, and he did it better.

Better Post Moves - Hakeem
Better Finisher - Hakeem
Better Outside Shot - Hakeem
Better Overall Scorer - Hakeem
Better Free Throw Shooter - Hakeem
Better Shot Creator - Hakeem
Better Ball Handler - Hakeem
Better Offensive Rebounder - Hakeem
Better Defensive Rebounder - Duncan
Better Overall Rebounder - tie
Better Passer - Duncan
Better Shot Blocker - Hakeem
Better Ball Thief - Hakeem
Better Post Defender - Hakeem
Better Perimeter Defender - Hakeem
Better Overall Defender - Hakeem

I know it's taboo around here to rank Hakeem over Duncan , but I really don't see the case for Duncan when you compare them as basketball palyers. The only real argument for Duncan is team success, but that's a pretty terrible argument when you take into account the supporting casts that these two had over the course of their careers. Maybe my eyes deceive me, but I've both players entire careers from start to finish and there's simply no way anyone is going to convince me that Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

For most people on this site, it'll probably be Hakeem that gets knocked off(assuming Lebron isn't done winning), but then again most people on this site are probably fifteen to twenty years old so I wouldn't expect much more really. In a few years, people that never saw Duncan/Shaq play will be trying to argue Howard over those two, and so and so forth, ad nauseam.


P.S. - None of that rant was about you(guy that I quoted). You seem like un-biased poster who enjoys learning/debating basketball history. Your post just happened to remind me of something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

[DatAsh]

If you view accomplishments through a black and white lens, maybe. Olajuwon had one of the most celebrated skillsets in the history of the game at any position and there's no greater testament to that than the fact that Kobe Bryant, Dwight Howard and Lebron James have all come seeking lessons from him, 15+ years since he lifted his 2nd Larry O'Brien trophy.

It's feels pointless to just rattle off things such as All-NBA or All-Defense honors. Is it already lost on people that he played in an era of great centers? He was annually up against the likes of Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Shaquille O'Neal and Dikembe Mutombo for one or both of those of those honors as well as the likes of Jordan, Magic, Bird, Barkley and Malone for league MVP. How many of the above are in the consensus top ten? It's damn near half the list.

Accomplishment? We can start with the fact that he's the only player to win the MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year Award in the same season. The Rockets second-leading scorer throughout the 1994 playoffs was Vernon Maxwell who put up 13.8 ppg at a 37% clip. In the Finals, he led the Rockets from down 3-2 and bested an ATG Center in Patrick Ewing who also had help in the form of Charles Oakley and Anthony Mason.

In 1995, he managed to repeat which is notable in itself. The '95 Rockets are the lowest seeded team in NBA history (#6) to win the Finals. Not only were they the lowest seeded team, but they beat the four best teams in the NBA that year: The #3 seeded 60-win Jazz team, the #2 seeded (Pacific Champ) 59-win Suns team, #1 seeded 62-win San Antonio Spurs team and the Eastern Conference Champs, the #1 seeded 57-win Orlando Magic. This also represents the highest combined W-L any team has had to go through en route to a Championship. Led the Rockets from trailing 3-1 to beat the Suns in seven games. In the Conference Finals, he averaged 35/13/5/4 on 56% against - you guessed it - another All-Time Great Center in David Robinson, who just so happened to also be the NBA MVP and Defensive Player of the Year that season. Oh, he also had Dennis Rodman alongside him. In the Finals, yet another ATG Center in Shaquille O'Neal who while was yet to reach his prime, had managed to win the scoring title that season, lead the Magic to the #1 seed in the Conference and take care of the post-Grant, pre-Rodman Chicago Bulls in six games. Houston swept them, Olajuwon put up 30+ points in each contest and outplayed O'Neal contrary to revisionist history.

He may have "only" two rings, but they account for a whole hell of a lot when you consider some of the specifics. Face it, Olajuwon had less help than most, if not all of the 'Top 10' and his level of opposition where positional match-ups are concerned is profound. He faced three legitimately great Centers and bested all of them when it mattered most. He took the lowest seeded team ever to win the Finals and beat the the best four teams in the league in one playoff run and he's the only to sweep the MVP/FMVP/DPOY.

Hakeem in danger? Nah.

:applause: :applause:

[DatAsh]

Hakeem.

Alot of people praise Hakeem because of his '94 & '95 seasons, but alot of people forget that David Robinson & Patrick Ewing were considered to be better by most observers during the early 90's.

Hakeem was dominant in the 80's, dominant in the mid 90's, but for some reason he wasn't as dominant in the early 90's which I find odd.


A lot of that had to do with the shitty supporting casts he played with in comparison to some of those other guys. A lot of it also had to do with injuries around that time.

[Freedom Kid7]

If Lebron keeps winning(big if), I'd probably have to knock off Kobe or Duncan.
I'd knock off Kobe but okay


There's simply no way I could ever rank Duncan over Hakeem. Hakeem did almost everything on court that Duncan did, and he did it better.

Better Post Moves - Hakeem
Better Finisher - Hakeem
Better Outside Shot - Hakeem
Better Overall Scorer - Hakeem
Better Free Throw Shooter - Hakeem
Better Shot Creator - Hakeem
Better Ball Handler - Hakeem
Better Offensive Rebounder - Hakeem
Better Defensive Rebounder - Duncan
Better Overall Rebounder - tie
Better Passer - Duncan
Better Shot Blocker - Hakeem
Better Ball Thief - Hakeem
Better Post Defender - Hakeem
Better Perimeter Defender - Hakeem
Better Overall Defender - Hakeem

I know it's taboo around here to rank Hakeem over Duncan , but I really don't see the case for Duncan when you compare them as basketball palyers. The only real argument for Duncan is team success, but that's a pretty terrible argument when you take into account the supporting casts that these two had over the course of their careers. Maybe my eyes deceive me, but I've both players entire careers from start to finish and there's simply no way anyone is going to convince me that Tim Duncan was a better basketball player than Hakeem Olajuwon.

For most people on this site, it'll probably be Hakeem that gets knocked off(assuming Lebron isn't done winning), but then again most people on this site are probably fifteen to twenty years old so I wouldn't expect much more really. In a few years, people that never saw Duncan/Shaq play will be trying to argue Howard over those two, and so and so forth, ad nauseam.

I love Hakeem and his moves were great. I don't know if I'd say Hakeem was a better defender than Duncan, but honestly they're both good. Duncan's post moves were effective, but not as good as the Dream Shake. Granted, they're both good. I have Duncan at eight and Hakeem at nine. Hakeem is my favorite player though. His moves were great. I don't understand why people would knock Duncan off before Kobe though. Kobe only won twice as the man, left the Lakers in a damn mess for a couple of years after Shaq left and wasn't nearly good as Duncan. Granted, different positions and all, but Duncan always strikes me as the better player.


P.S. - None of that rant was about you(guy that I quoted). You seem like un-biased poster who enjoys learning/debating basketball history. You're post just happened to remind me of something I've been thinking a lot about lately.
:cheers: . I agree with the things you say most of the time actually. Especially the thing you said about Russell in the silly Howard vs. Russell

[Nero Tulip]

Unless you think Anthony Davis will take a spot, I don't see anyone making it soon.

Kobe and Lebron are solid top 50 players, no more.

[Hands of Iron]

:applause: :applause:

Don't ever underestimate the Heart of a Champion.

[bballnoob1192]

It has already been mentioned, but most all-time Top-10 "lists" include Russell, MJ, Magic, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, and Hakeem...in some order.

However, instead of constantly arguing a Top-10 list, maybe it is about time to have a more permanent Top-12 to Top-15 list...in any order.

Players like Moses, Lebron, Oscar, Dr. J, and West all have near "immortal" resumes.

And really, why make a big deal out of ranking Kobe over Bird, or Duncan over Shaq, etc. (and in the process rip the other player)?

It's a TEAM game, too. Then you have the "competition" and "era" arguments, as well. Those that constantly bring up the quality of Hakeem's teammates in his title runs, ignore the fact that his team's were not beating great rosters (hell, his '94 Rocket team that went 58-24 barely edged a 56-26 Knick team in seven games, with a roster that was no better than his own.) Does Hakeem winning a title against a bunch of no names have any more significance than Magic's Lakers beating Bird's Celtics?

Then there are often overlooked aspects, as well. IMHO, players like a Moses from '79 thru '83 (or longer) just dominated their peers...ALL of them. I have compared the Moses-Kareem H2H's before, but Moses not only outplayed Kareem in the majority of their 40 career H2H's, he was outplaying Gilmore, Lanier, Parish, et al. Same with Shaq from about '98 thru '02. You won't find very many games in which the best centers of that period outplayed Shaq. And Chamberlain's run throughout the entire decade of the 60's was perhaps the most dominant ever. He was routinely outplaying centers like Bellamy, Reed, Russell, Unseld, and Thurmond in the majority of their H2H's. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in that period in which he was outplayed, at least statistically and in many, he was just crushing his peers (of course, the Russell supporters will have legitimate arguments about "winning.")

The fact is/was, these all-time greats had played in different era's, against different teams and opposing greats, with different rosters, different coaches, and different systems.

If you could take all of these greats, put them in the same time frame, give them the same exact rosters (and all healthy), with the same exact coaches, and against the same opposition, then you could probably make a case as to how these players should be ranked. Wins and losses would ultimately determine their ranking.

Unfortunately, none of that is possible. Instead, they should all be applauded for just how great they were...especially at their peak.

i cannot ****ing agree more man. If we simply extend the list to 15 it will end all the bickering because the perception of 10 being the ultimate number is stupid. Every generation will produce at least 1 top 10 player and to use them to push a previous generation's top 10 out of the arbitary list of 10 is just stupid.

[KDTrey5]

whats the top 10 list?

[KOBE143]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. TD
9. Russell
10. Wilt

So whos player gonna replace Wilt next season? I dont see anyone yet in the league that has a top ten resume.. :confusedshrug:

[funnystuff]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. TD
9. Russell
10. Wilt

So whos player gonna replace Wilt next season? I dont see anyone yet in the league that has a top ten resume.. :confusedshrug:
:facepalm

[DaSeba5]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. TD
9. Russell
10. Wilt

So whos player gonna replace Wilt next season? I dont see anyone yet in the league that has a top ten resume.. :confusedshrug:

:biggums:

[arifgokcen]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. TD
9. Russell
10. Wilt

So whos player gonna replace Wilt next season? I dont see anyone yet in the league that has a top ten resume.. :confusedshrug:

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[rmt]

I don't understand the reasoning behind the way people rank players here on ISH. On one hand, they'll list all the ways in which Hakeem is better than Duncan - better this, better that (skill) and downplay the winning (4 rings to 2). On the other hand, the very same posters rank Russell in the top 5, emphazing the winning and not listing better at this, that and the other skill when Russell was nowhere near the offensive player that either Hakeem or Duncan was.

Like it or not, winning is the goal of the game and when it comes to the greatest players of all time, winning is very important and what separates what are all very skilled players. One could be the most skilled player but if winning doesn't go along with it, that player is not going to be considered top 10.

And teams play the opponents that are in front of them. They have no control over who their opponent is (NY Knicks) and please the 03 Nets were the same team Shaq and Kobe played the year before with one more year's and Finals experience under their belt.

[Freedom Kid7]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. TD
9. Russell
10. Wilt

So whos player gonna replace Wilt next season? I dont see anyone yet in the league that has a top ten resume.. :confusedshrug:

KB (GOAT LAKERS)
:biggums: . This is as blasphemous as Mercyful Fate. How do you rank your players?

[DatAsh]

I don't understand the reasoning behind the way people rank players here on ISH. On one hand, they'll list all the ways in which Hakeem is better than Duncan - better this, better that (skill) and downplay the winning (4 rings to 2). On the other hand, the very same posters rank Russell in the top 5, emphazing the winning and not listing better at this, that and the other skill when Russell was nowhere near the offensive player that either Hakeem or Duncan was.

Like it or not, winning is the goal of the game and when it comes to the greatest players of all time, winning is very important and what separates what are all very skilled players. One could be the most skilled player but if winning doesn't go along with it, that player is not going to be considered top 10.

And teams play the opponents that are in front of them. They have no control over who their opponent is (NY Knicks) and please the 03 Nets were the same team Shaq and Kobe played the year before with one more year's and Finals experience under their belt.

You're right that winning is the point of the game, but you can't take that out it out of context and ignore all other factors.

Plus, Russell vs Hakeem and Duncan vs Hakeem is a VERY different comparison.

Comparing Hakeem vs Duncan
Hakeem was the better scorer(decent edge)
They were equal rebounders
Duncan was the better passer(small edge)
Hakeem was the better inside defender(small edge)
Hakeem was the better outside defender(huge edge)

Duncan has a 4-2 ring advantage(2 ring edge)
Duncan played with better supporting casts(huge edge)



Comparing Hakeem vs Russell
Hakeem was the better scorer(huge edge)
Russell was the better rebounder(huge edge)
Russell was the better passer(huge edge)
Russell was the better inside defender(huge edge)
Russell was the better outside defender(slight edge)

Russell has a 11-2 ring advantage(9 ring edge)
Russell played with better supporting casts(huge edge)

Hakeem was better than Duncan at almost everything, plus Duncan only has a 2 ring edge. Russell was better than Hakeem at everything minus scoring, plus Russell has a 9 ring edge. It's not the same thing at all.

[TMacMagic]

Watch out Hakeem... THE WHITE MAMBA IS COMIN FOR YA

[DatAsh]

I'd knock off Kobe but okay


I love Hakeem and his moves were great. I don't know if I'd say Hakeem was a better defender than Duncan, but honestly they're both good. Duncan's post moves were effective, but not as good as the Dream Shake. Granted, they're both good. I have Duncan at eight and Hakeem at nine. Hakeem is my favorite player though. His moves were great. I don't understand why people would knock Duncan off before Kobe though. Kobe only won twice as the man, left the Lakers in a damn mess for a couple of years after Shaq left and wasn't nearly good as Duncan. Granted, different positions and all, but Duncan always strikes me as the better player.


:cheers: . I agree with the things you say most of the time actually. Especially the thing you said about Russell in the silly Howard vs. Russell

Can't say that I agree with Duncan being a better defensive player than Hakeem, or really even having a case for that matter( sorry :( ). Both are certainty great defensive players. If I had to rank them, Hakeem would be #2 all time, and Duncan would be somewhere around 8-10.

Oddly enough, I'd probably say that Duncan's post game is the closest to being equal(of the things I listed as Hakeem doing better). Despite Hakeem's flashier moves, I'd say Duncan's post game was 90% as effective overall as Hakeem's.

[BuffaloBill]

Maybe Hakeem, if any. 2 more rings and Lebron makes my top 10. Lebron is one of my favorite players to watch, but his career doesn't compare to Kobe or Duncan yet.


Actually he has a while to go before he reaches Duncan. I have Duncan in the 5-6 position, and Kobe somewhere from 7-9

[StateOfMind12]

Good post DatAsh, Russell is underrated as an individual player and it's not even funny. People act as if the only reason why he is a top 10 ATG is because he has 11 rings and that's not even close to being the truth.

Russell is one of the greatest impact/effective players that has ever played the game, maybe the greatest.

Russell just never put up great scoring numbers but when he was asked to score he would get the job done and he would do well. You can check out his 1962 playoff run to see more especially Game 7 of the 1962 Finals where he dropped 30 points and 40 rebounds in that game.

Offense is beyond scoring too.

Everyone knows about Russell's defense and his rebounding but he was also an underrated passer, one of the greatest, if not the greatest passing Center/big man of all-time. You then also have to factor in how great of an offensive rebounder, screen setter, etc. Russell was and those are also aspects on offense.

The only problem is that those aren't stats or at least some of them weren't at the time. Most people did not see Russell play but it's not a coincidence that most people that did believe he is the greatest ever.

Russell as an individual is just as good, if not better than both Hakeem and Duncan are and then now you factor in the 11 rings and all those accomplishments and Russell is miles ahead of both of them.

Accomplishments should only be used as tiebreakers unless it is a serious lopsided advantage which it also is in this case.

[barkleynash]

Since a basketball team consists of twelve players we can simply include Oscar and Lebron. Imagine that lineup.
Magic, Oscar
Jordan, Kobe
Bird, Lebron
Hakeem, Duncan, Russell
Kareem, Shaquille, wilt

[Freedom Kid7]

Can't say that I agree with Duncan being a better defensive player than Hakeem, or really even having a case for that matter( sorry :( ). Both are certainty great defensive players. If I had to rank them, Hakeem would be #2 all time, and Duncan would be somewhere around 8-10.

Oddly enough, I'd probably say that Duncan's post game is the closest to being equal(of the things I listed as Hakeem doing better). Despite Hakeem's flashier moves, I'd say Duncan's post game was 90% as effective overall as Hakeem's.
Out of curiousity, what is your top 10 list of overall defensive players?
Agree to disagree, but you bring up some good points nonetheless.

[longtime lurker]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. TD
9. Russell
10. Wilt

So whos player gonna replace Wilt next season? I dont see anyone yet in the league that has a top ten resume.. :confusedshrug:

:facepalm just stop

[DatAsh]

Out of curiousity, what is your top 10 list of overall defensive players?
Agree to disagree, but you bring up some good points nonetheless.

Hakeem was an absolute monster in his prime(defensively)

Kind of a random fact, but it's still one of the most impressive h2h defensive performances ever in my opinion. Check this out.

Hakeem's 1993-1994 season stats against Ewing
33 ppg, 17 rpg, 4 apg on 53 FG%

Patrick Ewing's 1993-1994 season stats against Hakeem
12 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 apg on 26 FG%

1994 Finals
Hakeem Olajuwon- 27 ppg, 9 rpg, 4 apg, 4 bpg, 50.0 FG%
Patrick Ewing- 19 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 4 bpg, 36.4 FG%

Patrick Ewing's 1993-1994 overall stats
25 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 50 FG%


Absolute domination :bowdown:

As for a top 10? Gosh, I hate doing "all-time" lists for the most part since I'm not sure anyone's really qualified to make such a claim, but I'll give it a shot :lol

1. Bill Russell
2. Hakeem Olajuwon
3. Nate Thurmond
4. Wilt Chamberlain
5. Dennis Rodman
6. David Robinson
7. Ben Wallace
8. Kevin Garnett
9. Dikembe Mutombo
10. Tim Duncan

:confusedshrug:

Hopefully I didn't forget anyone :(

[Hands of Iron]

I don't understand the reasoning behind the way people rank players here on ISH. On one hand, they'll list all the ways in which Hakeem is better than Duncan - better this, better that (skill) and downplay the winning (4 rings to 2). On the other hand, the very same posters rank Russell in the top 5, emphazing the winning and not listing better at this, that and the other skill when Russell was nowhere near the offensive player that either Hakeem or Duncan was.

Like it or not, winning is the goal of the game and when it comes to the greatest players of all time, winning is very important and what separates what are all very skilled players. One could be the most skilled player but if winning doesn't go along with it, that player is not going to be considered top 10.

And teams play the opponents that are in front of them. They have no control over who their opponent is (NY Knicks) and please the 03 Nets were the same team Shaq and Kobe played the year before with one more year's and Finals experience under their belt.

Pretty fair points.

To be completely honest, it's due to that type of hypocrisy that I don't actually numerically rank players. If pushed, I'd likely have Jordan #1 and KAJ #2. I think that's pretty reasonable. Where everyone else falls in line is completely up for debate and I partake in it without really trying or even wanting to reach a conclusion -- it's just fun. I will say though that it's blasphemous to be a Top 10 ATG without having won a championship as the man. That's because there isn't a player who hasn't that isn't equaled or surpassed by at least 10 others in terms of numbers/skills/ability who did, and some of them several times over. In no particular order:

Bird, Larry
Bryant, Kobe
Chamberlain, Wilt
Duncan, Tim
Jabbar, Kareem-Abdul
Johnson, Earvin 'Magic'
Jordan, Michael
Olajuwon, Hakeem
O'Neal, Shaquille
Russell, Bill

Just outside: Oscar Robertson, Lebron James

Seems a little taboo to say as much, and I consistently see them in the bottom ten but I think you could really make an argument for Hakeem/Duncan/Shaq over both Bird and Magic. All nostalgia aside. Hell, I've flat out stated why I'd take Olajuwon over them in another thread in regards to starting a team or being a player to build around. The reasoning for the other two wouldn't be that much further off. Shaq's argument would probably go towards his raw volume and efficiency while Tim shares a lot of same valuable traits with Hakeem.

[k0kakw0rld]

Tim Duncan, I have him as #10 on my list
4 rings 3 fmvp 2 mvp top 10 th spot? tha **** u smokin son? 7 if not 6.

[Hands of Iron]

Hakeem was an absolute monster in his prime(defensively)

Kind of a random fact, but it's still one of the most impressive h2h defensive performances ever in my opinion. Check this out.

Hakeem's 1993-1994 season stats against Ewing
33 ppg, 17 rpg, 4 apg on 53 FG%

Patrick Ewing's 1993-1994 season stats against Hakeem
12 ppg, 10 rpg, 2 apg on 26 FG%

1994 Finals
Hakeem Olajuwon- 27 ppg, 9 rpg, 4 apg, 4 bpg, 50.0 FG%
Patrick Ewing- 19 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 4 bpg, 36.4 FG%

Patrick Ewing's 1993-1994 overall stats
25 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg on 50 FG%


Absolute domination :bowdown:

Olajuwon's playoff tear-ups were burning white shit hot. As a kid growing up a Suns fan, he put the fear of god into my heart. They went up 2-0 and 3-1 on his damn teams in the playoffs back-to-back years and lost the series both times in Game 7. I think that's a big reason why I have so much respect for him.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Not to mention his rape of a Prime Robinson in 95.

Hakeem 35.3 points, 12.5 rebounds 5 assists, 4.2 blocks on 56 % FG.

Robinson 23.8 points 11.2 rebounds 2.7 assist , 2.2 blocks , on 44 % FG.

Robinson was the MVP that year, almost unanimously considered the best defensive center in the league and just got completely shit on :D

[Carbine]

I have Kobe ranked at #10 so it would be him getting passed.

I don't get how LeBron after 10 seasons and two rings, presumably two finals mvps and the rest of his accolades would vault him over Kobe on an all-time list.

Kobe will have played god damn 17 years, 5 time champion, two time finals MVP, to go along with a list of better accolades (All-NBA teams, All-NBA Defensive teams, MVP's, scoring titles, etc) and longevity over a 29 year old LeBron.

There's no way any sane person would rank LeBron if he wins a title next year and retires over the 17 year career of Kobe.

[juju151111]

I don't get how LeBron after 10 seasons and two rings, presumably two finals mvps and the rest of his accolades would vault him over Kobe on an all-time list.

Kobe will have played god damn 17 years, 5 time champion, two time finals MVP, to go along with a list of better accolades (All-NBA teams, All-NBA Defensive teams, MVP's, scoring titles, etc) and longevity over a 29 year old LeBron.

There's no way any sane person would rank LeBron if he wins a title next year and retires over the 17 year career of Kobe.
LJ has the stats n MVps already. The ring was holding him back.

[Carbine]

LJ has the stats n MVps already. The ring was holding him back.

I know he has the stats, but his resume after a second title next year (if that happens) wouldn't be even equal to Kobes.

Kobe:

5 titles
2 FMVP
1 MVP
2 scoring titles
15 All-NBA teams (Assuming he makes another one)
13 All-Defense (Assuming he makes another one)

LeBron:

2 titles
2 FMVP
3 MVP
1 scoring title
9 All-NBA temas (I'm assuming he makes another one)
5 All-NBA Defense (I'm assuming he makes another one)


I mean literally, the only thing LeBron has over Kobe is regular season MVP's.

Everything else Kobe either ties or completely crushes LeBron in.

There's no way you could look at LeBron's career after next year and say he had the better career.

[Hands of Iron]

Not to mention his rape of a Prime Robinson in 95.

Hakeem 35.3 points, 12.5 rebounds 5 assists, 4.2 blocks on 56 % FG.

Robinson 23.8 points 11.2 rebounds 2.7 assist , 2.2 blocks , on 44 % FG.

Robinson was the MVP that year, almost unanimously considered the best defensive center in the league and just got completely shit on :D

1995 is my favorite of the two. He came back from a 2-1 deficit against #3 seeded Utah in the first round, a 3-1 deficit against #2 seeded Phoenix in the semi-finals, thrashed Robinson and the #1 seeded Spurs in the conference finals and then swept Shaq and Penny's Magic in the NBA Finals. He put up and created an insane amount of shots during the '95 run and they needed him to take every one of them. He completely unloaded his offensive arsenal without apology. Dazzling.

He was pretty damn good in just about every series both years though.

1994:

WCQF POR: 34.0 points, 11.0 rebounds, 4.8 assists, 3.8 blocks on 50% FG
WCSF PHO: 28.7 points, 13.6 rebounds, 4.6 assists, 3.9 blocks on 60% FG
WCF UTA: 27.8 points, 10.2 rebounds, 4.4 assists, 4.6 blocks on 50% FG
FINALS NYK: 26.9 points, 9.1 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 3.9 blocks on 50% FG

PLAYOFFS: 28.9 points, 11.0 rebounds, 4.3 assists, 4.0 blocks on 52% FG

1995:

WCQF UTA: 35.0 points, 8.6 rebounds, 6.0 assists, 2.6 blocks on 57% FG
WCSF PHO: 29.6 points, 9.0 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 2.4 blocks on 51% FG
WCF SAS: 35.3 points, 12.5 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 4.2 blocks on 56% FG
FINALS ORL: 32.8 points, 11.5 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 2.0 blocks 48% FG

PLAYOFFS: 33.0 points, 10.3 rebounds, 4.5 assists, 2.8 blocks on 53% FG

[bmulls]

I know he has the stats, but his resume after a second title next year (if that happens) wouldn't be even equal to Kobes.

Kobe:

5 titles
2 FMVP
1 MVP
2 scoring titles
15 All-NBA teams (Assuming he makes another one)
13 All-Defense (Assuming he makes another one)

LeBron:

2 titles
2 FMVP
3 MVP
1 scoring title
9 All-NBA temas (I'm assuming he makes another one)
5 All-NBA Defense (I'm assuming he makes another one)


I mean literally, the only thing LeBron has over Kobe is regular season MVP's.

Everything else Kobe either ties or completely crushes LeBron in.

There's no way you could look at LeBron's career after next year and say he had the better career.

Longevity/achievements isn't the be all-end all measure of a player. Anybody with eyes can see he's playing at a level higher than anything Kobe ever managed.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Longevity/achievements isn't the be all-end all measure of a player. Anybody with eyes can see he's playing at a level higher than anything Kobe ever managed.

Is this really what people believe around here? you people are wierd.I just thought you guys were trolling but this seems like a common opinion.

[PickernRoller]

Is this really what people believe around here? you people are wierd.I just thought you guys were trolling but this seems like a common opinion.

No they trolling...and some do actually believe it. Like I said, if you can't handle 10 year olds Laker ground or Laker nation is for you...assuming you root for the Lakers. Great community there too....

[Hands of Iron]

Is this really what people believe around here? you people are wierd.I just thought you guys were trolling but this seems like a common opinion.

Well, in some instances I have an issue with All-NBA honors and such. With Kobe, it's actually pretty impressive considering he's had a few different elite guards to compete with for those honors. But how about someone like Hakeem, who played in an era that had the likes of Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning... those All-NBA and All-Defense awards are going to be pretty splintered, particularly being a regular season award. Olajuwon proved greater than every one of them in the clutch, under pressure, when games matter most.. hell, even head-to-head in those exact scenarios in some cases.

[RazorBaLade]

Longevity/achievements isn't the be all-end all measure of a player. Anybody with eyes can see he's playing at a level higher than anything Kobe ever managed.

and anybody with eyes sees wilt is at a higher level than jordan

whos the goat??

[Rubio2Gasol]

No they trolling...and some do actually believe it. Like I said, if you can't handle 10 year olds Laker ground or Laker nation is for you...assuming you root for the Lakers. Great community there too....

Nah man , I don't root for the Lakeshow particularly, though I might since they got Nash (hopefully he gets Gasol going). I have no problems with the Lakeshow love almost everyone on that team.

Other than Mike Brown who is an absolute dud.If they hired Adleman instead :bowdown:

In the NBA if I had to say I root for a particular team it'd be the Rockets, but more often than not I just love teams with superior passing games, Kings under Adleman, Spurs now, Wolves now, and any team Rondo is on.

[PickernRoller]

Well, in some instances I have an issue with All-NBA honors and such. With Kobe, it's actually pretty impressive considering he's had a few different elite guards to compete with for those honors. But how about someone like Hakeem, who played in an era that had the likes of Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning... those All-NBA and All-Defense awards are going to be pretty splintered, particularly being a regular season award. Olajuwon proved greater than every one of them in the clutch, under pressure, when games matter most.. hell, even head-to-head in those exact scenarios in some cases.

Are you taking this thread serious is the question?

Considering OP is an official retard and the other bunch too....

[Rubio2Gasol]

Well, in some instances I have an issue with All-NBA honors and such. With Kobe, it's actually pretty impressive considering he's had a few different elite guards to compete with for those honors. But how about someone like Hakeem, who played in an era that had the likes of Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Mutombo, Mourning... those All-NBA and All-Defense awards are going to be pretty splintered, particularly being a regular season award. Olajuwon proved greater than every one of them in the clutch, under pressure, when games matter most.. hell, even head-to-head in those exact scenarios in some cases.

Yea, I get that, but I mean if we're talking about peaks, nothing I've seen from Lebron so far puts him alongside 01 or 02 Kobe , far less prime Kobe.I guess it's just the time lol, so soon after his great playoff run.

He deserves alot of credit as well tho finally found a real path to success, playing like a true power player instead of pretending to be Oscar. Hope he continues in the same vein.

[Hands of Iron]

Are you taking this thread serious is the question?

Considering OP is an official retard and the other bunch too....

In reality, no. I know better.

But considering a dozen people outside of OP bothered to mention Hakeem, I'm having fun thoroughly disproving why he would be removed and have gotten nothing in the form of a serious rebuttal. Only agreements. :applause:

[Alan Shore]

my top nine list in no order:

jordan
bird
magic
shaq
hakeem
robertson
duncan
russell
lebron

there are many players that are fighting for the 10-15 spots but these nine are the players who epitomize the best combination of positive-sum play and the art of making others around them better.

[mehyaM24]

My top ten

1. MJ
2. KB (GOAT LAKERS)


:lol

...kobe is a sidekick,he cant be #2....he takes bad shots...he has lost more series than he has won,thats a fact....

like going 43-113 in the 04 finals

shaq was like 53-84.....yet instead of going inside,kobe shot contested jumper after contested jumper...

iirc, in 2003,when he took 157 shots to shaqs 102....while being wayy less efficient of course....

in game 1 of that seres kobe took 38 shots,and the team scored 82 pts...

kobe shoots .414% in his finals career

he was finals mvp on 43% shooting

[Hands of Iron]

Shaq is one of the greatest Finals performers in NBA history.

[Jacks3]

He'll probably knock Kobe off unfortunately.

[RRR3]

He'll probably knock Kobe off unfortunately.
You go back and forth between lebron and Kobe so much :yaohappy:

[PickernRoller]

In reality, no. I know better.

But considering a dozen people outside of OP bothered to mention Hakeem, I'm having fun thoroughly disproving why he would be removed and have gotten nothing in the form of a serious rebuttal. Only agreements. :applause:

It's only a matter of time before you get overwhelmed each passing day as more and more threads are done about the topic. But cool...stay frosty.

[PickernRoller]

You go back and forth between lebron and Kobe so much :yaohappy:

Can only mean two things right?

[Hands of Iron]

It's only a matter of time before you get overwhelmed each passing day as more and more threads are done about the topic.

Probably. :lol

[Jacks3]

You go back and forth between lebron and Kobe so much :yaohappy:
Not really. I've been saying since 09 that LBJ will almost certainly surpass Kobe.

I think he ends up in the top 3-5 all-time.

:coleman:

[RRR3]

Can only mean two things right?
God stop following me around with your nonsense. I don't care what you think about shit

[RRR3]

Not really. I've been saying since 09 that LBJ will almost certainly surpass Kobe.

I think he ends up in the top 3-5 all-time.

:coleman:
Interesting. You must be the only bron AND KOBE fan on ISH props :cheers:

[PickernRoller]

God stop following me around with your nonsense. I don't care what you think about shit

Don't be mad son...I though the butthurt was gone by now. I still see you took it too hard. Why y'all take it soo personal when y'all start it - if I remember you took the swing not me. I knew you were avoiding but not this hard. That's cool though....Crispy crisp.

[RRR3]

this message is hidden because PickernRoller is on your ignore list.
Damn never should have taken this foo' off my IL. Not even funny too dumb to even get any laughs smh

[PickernRoller]

Damn never should have taken this foo' off my IL. Not even funny too dumb to even get any laughs smh

We'all know you still read it...that's another fail you'll have to get over. But cool cool....you can always leave the site all together or roam around with an alt like you been doing lately. All cool with me...gonna leave you alone before you have another meltdown.

[bmulls]

and anybody with eyes sees wilt is at a higher level than jordan

whos the goat??

:rolleyes:

My point was there are many factors you take into account when you talk about player rankings. Achievements are one of them, so are stats, so is the strength of competition, dominance, playoff performance, etc etc..

[Graviton]

Lebron. :lol

[The-Legend-24]

:roll:

[Graviton]

RIP Silk, maybe he will be back in November? :lol