Oscar Robertson should be a lock in the top ten

[INDI]

Many people say that he's never won an mvp, but when I look it up he won in 63-64. He also has a championship and multiple all-star/all nba team selections.

but every top ten player has those (it's a must). The main reason i believe this dude should be considered top ten is because of his insane stats. He is currently the only player EVER to average a triple double for a season and came close to doing it 3 other times




60-61 30.5ppg 9.7asts 10.1reb
rookie of the year


61-62 30.8ppg 11.4asts 12.5reb


62-63 28.3ppg 9.5asts 10.4reb
consider this an off year


63-64 31.4ppg 11.0asts 9.9reb
mvp year

in his 14 year career he ended with a average of 25.7ppg 9.5 asts and 7.5 reb. shot 48% from the field and 83% from the line




Whats the reasoning for leaving him out when he has a case for top 5 yet alone is never mentioned in people's top ten. You can't say its era because then we should take out Wilt and Russell.


not to mention he was a point guard putting up ridicoulous numbers like this

[chazzy]

He only has one title as a 2nd option to Kareem though. And his team success as the man is a little suspect.

[Sarcastic]

In basketball winning and accolades supersede stats for most people's lists. If this were baseball he would easily be top 5.

[SilkkTheShocker]

He definitely wouldn't average a triple double in this era if you adjust the pace he played at back then.

[Sarcastic]

He definitely wouldn't average a triple double in this era if you adjust the pace he played at back then.

We don't know that because time machines don't exist.


How many other people put up triple doubles in his era, if it was such a fast pace and so easy to do?

[riseagainst]

individual player wise (for the stat geeks), he's head to head with wilt as number 1 imo.

[INDI]

We don't know that because time machines don't exist.


How many other people put up triple doubles in his era, if it was such a fast pace and so easy to do?

Exactly!!!!!

Time machines don't exist but if I had to try to match what he would play like in today's era I could imagine him being the nets version of Jason Kidd with less defense, and a step slower, but a dominant scorer, better rebounding, and a way better jumper.

[chips93]

We don't know that because time machines don't exist.


How many other people put up triple doubles in his era, if it was such a fast pace and so easy to do?


pretty sure somebody did the math, and if bron had played at the pace that oscars teams played at he would have averaged a triple double

[Sarcastic]

pretty sure somebody did the math, and if bron had played at the pace that oscars teams played at he would have averaged a triple double

Time machine brochacho. Make one and prove it to me.

[jongib369]

I try to respect the opinions of others as much as possible...but with that being said, if Oscar isn't in your top 10 after seeing something like this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ee2Ag5GeMQ&feature=plcp

I don't know what to tell you...What PG in the league can stop that man? NO ONE. He would have a field day in todays league ESPECIALLY because of the wet rag defense


http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/michael-jordan-vs-real-old-school-defense/

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

:bowdown:

[BoutPractice]

He did make the conference finals a few times (once taking the Celtics to 7 games), and each time his team lost in the playoffs it was either against Russell or Chamberlain.
He was a brilliant guard who couldn't win on his own in an era full of stacked teams with dominant centers. As soon as he played with one, he won the championship, unfortunately he was on the decline by then.

Imagine his resume had he played alongside a Bill Russell in his prime. He still would've had great stats (not as ridiculous but historic nonetheless, he was a better offensive player than anyone on those Cs teams), probably wouldn't have won MVP, but would've won a whole lot of championships instead.

[jongib369]

He definitely wouldn't average a triple double in this era if you adjust the pace he played at back then.
What about the defense Lebron has to face? this is what Im referring too..would lebron be able to Score, or rebound as much with rules like these? Not dissing Lebron, hes a HOF BEAST. Love his game, and totally respect your opinion. Just an honest question Im NOT trying to be a dick...Your opinion is just as valid as mine

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/michael-jordan-vs-real-old-school-defense/

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

[jongib369]

individual player wise (for the stat geeks), he's head to head with wilt as number 1 imo.
If you like wilt check out my youtube channel. Same name as on here, some great highlights...not meaning to whore off my channel, just passing along some good wilt videos

[get these NETS]

Oscar Robertson was the first guy to break the mvp monopoly that chamberlain and russell had

and I think pre-1979 that the mvp was chosen by PLAYERS voting, so it's a feat that a point guard could snatch one mvp award in the

Another guard wouldn't win the mvp until Magic Johnson..21 years later....





give Oscar his props...

[Lebron23]

What about the defense Lebron has to face? this is what Im referring too..would lebron be able to Score, or rebound as much with rules like these? Not dissing Lebron, hes a HOF BEAST. Love his game, and totally respect your opinion. Just an honest question Im NOT trying to be a dick...Your opinion is just as valid as mine

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/michael-jordan-vs-real-old-school-defense/

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/


Are you Brucelitz?

[Ne 1]

Definitely not. IMO, Oscar is somewhat overrated due to his legend status and the mystic of the triple double season. Also with many fans being so obsessive with and overrating 'all around' numbers.

He only has 1 ring as arguably the 3rd fiddle on a team led by Kareem, only led his team to more than 50 wins once in his entire career and won only 2 playoff series his entire career as the #1 option. What other player who would be considered a top 10 lock gets this type of a pass? Seriously.

His triple double season indicates that he was a good all around player but you have to look at those numbers into some kind of context because obviously the statistics were inflated back then. It was in a setting that can never be replicated in the NBA ever again. On average teams had about 30 more possessions a game, this is a massive edge, especially for assist and scoring numbers. The league had about 40-50% more rebounds in a game. Baylor at 6'5 averaged 20 boards a game while scoring 30 points. West at 6'2 got 8 a game. Don Kojis at 6'3 got 11 a game. The list goes on. Not diminishing the players themselves in any way but when you bring up the "triple double season", you just can't ignore those. Playing in a certain era should not give an advantage that players now don't have.

[jongib369]

Nope, just came across a few articles/videos of his and find myself agreeing with most of what he says...not everything though. Its hard to argue the defense...Lebron would be a HOF in any era nonetheless. I just think his game would be negatively effected with the way the rules were back then.

Just to stress one more time, I love Lebrons game and I dont mean to hate on him

[Lebron23]

Nope, just came across a few articles/videos of his and find myself agreeing with most of what he says...not everything though. Its hard to argue the defense...Lebron would be a HOF in any era nonetheless. I just think his game would be negatively effected with the way the rules were back then.

Just to stress one more time, I love Lebrons game and I dont mean to hate on him


I think LeBron will have a much better individual stats next season. No Pressure = Circa 09 and 10 LeBron.

[jongib369]

Definitely not. IMO, Oscar is somewhat overrated due to his legend status and the mystic of the triple double season. Also with many fans being so obsessive with and overrating 'all around' numbers.

He only has 1 ring as arguably the 3rd fiddle on a team led by Kareem, only led his team to more than 50 wins once in his entire career and won only 2 playoff series his entire career as the #1 option. What other player who would be considered a top 10 lock gets this type of a pass? Seriously.

His triple double season indicates that he was a good all around player but you have to look at those numbers into some kind of context because obviously the statistics were inflated back then. It was in a setting that can never be replicated in the NBA ever again. On average teams had about 30 more possessions a game, this is a massive edge, especially for assist and scoring numbers. The league had about 40-50% more rebounds in a game. Baylor at 6'5 averaged 20 boards a game while scoring 30 points. West at 6'2 got 8 a game. Don Kojis at 6'3 got 11 a game. The list goes on. Not diminishing the players themselves in any way but when you bring up the "triple double season", you just can't ignore those. Playing in a certain era should not give an advantage that players now don't have.
Just to mention, before 1980 players were measured barefoot...so baylor is potentially 6'6/7...West IS 6'4....Chamberlain would be listed at 7'2/3...Russell 6'10/11. While players like dwight howard is actually 6'9, Kevin love 6'7 1/2, Jordan and Kobe 6'4 bare feet

[get these NETS]

Definitely not. IMO, Oscar is somewhat overrated due to his legend status and the mystic of the triple double season. Also with many fans being so obsessive with and overrating 'all around' numbers.

He only has 1 ring as arguably the 3rd fiddle on a team led by Kareem, only led his team to more than 50 wins once in his entire career and won only 2 playoff series his entire career as a #1 option. What other player who would be considered a top 10 lock gets this type of a pass? Seriously.

His triple double season indicates that he was a good all around player but you have to look at those numbers into some kind of context because obviously the statistics were inflated back then. It was in a setting that can never be replicated in the NBA ever again. On average teams had about 30 more possessions a game, this is a massive edge, especially for assist and scoring numbers. The league had about 40-50% more rebounds in a game. Baylor at 6'5 averaged 20 boards a game while scoring 30 points. West at 6'2 got 8 a game. Don Kojis at 6'3 got 11 a game. The list goes on. Not diminishing the players themselves in any way but when you bring up the "triple double season", you just can't ignore those. Playing in a certain era should not give an advantage that players now don't have.


there were 8-9 teams in the league back then

fewer playoff rounds

and he played in era when Celtics were year after year the dominant team..period

entire starting fives of those Celtics teams are in HOF



abut the triple doubles...

forget who, but someone in nba marketing or lakers marketing...came up with the term triple double to pinpoint highlight just how much of an impact that Magic Johnson was having on games without gaudy scoring numbers.

press ran with it, and since magic and bird were only guys consistently getting these trip dubs...it showcased that they were special players

so when people found out that the Big O was doing shit like that on the REG. in his day....it gave a glimpse of just how SPECIAL he was....and he was doing it with gaudy scoring...

[Owl]

He definitely wouldn't average a triple double in this era if you adjust the pace he played at back then.
I'm not sure anyone claimed he would (but he did accrue a triple double averaging across his first six seasons, which is nothing to sniff at).

But back then you were less likely to get credit on assists and players shot a way lower percentage and he was piling them up.

Here's Oscar versus his peers in the first season assist % could be calculated

Assist Pct
1. Oscar Robertson*-CIN 37.8
2. Guy Rodgers-SFW 30.5
3. Richie Guerin-STL 23.9
4. K.C. Jones*-BOS 21.9
5. Lenny Wilkens*-STL 21.6
6. Johnny Egan-NYK 21.6
7. Jerry West*-LAL 20.0
8. Larry Costello-PHI 19.3
9. Hal Greer*-PHI 17.9
10. Tom Gola*-NYK 17.3
11. Kevin Loughery-BAL 17.1
12. Al Attles-SFW 16.6
13. Paul Neumann-TOT 16.6
14. Howard Komives-NYK 16.0
15. Ray Scott-DET 15.5
16. Elgin Baylor*-LAL 15.0
17. Red Kerr-PHI 14.8
18. Bill Russell*-BOS 14.8
19. Jim King-LAL 14.2
20. John Havlicek*-BOS 13.8
I'm not sure any pg has ever been that far above his peers as a distributor (maybe Cousy before Oscar came along). Oscar's shooting percentages are far superior to league averages too whilst he was scoring 30+ppg and being easily the greatest distributor in the league.

People too often just see Oscar as Mr Triple-Double and that can then be written of as a function of pace. But he wasn't just 30.8/12.5(r)/11.4(a). He was easily the leagues best passer and pg, through his prime he was the leagues top scoring guard year after year, consistently first or second in the league in true shooting percentage.

Of the popular fringe top 10 guys there's only Shaq and Duncan who I'd consider placing above him (i.e. not Kobe, not Olajuwon, not Moses).

[jongib369]

I think LeBron will have a much better individual stats next season. No Pressure = Circa 09 and 10 LeBron.

I would agree with that...people are kidding themselves if they dont think Miami will win next year...BUT I will admit, the lakers MIGHT beat them. We'll have to wait and see


what did you think of the links that I posted??

[The Iron Fist]

there were 8-9 teams in the league back then

fewer playoff rounds

and he played in era when Celtics were year after year the dominant team..period

entire starting fives of those Celtics teams are in HOF



abut the triple doubles...

forget who, but someone in nba marketing or lakers marketing...came up with the term triple double to pinpoint highlight just how much of an impact that Magic Johnson was having on games without gaudy scoring numbers.

press ran with it, and since magic and bird were only guys consistently getting these trip dubs...it showcased that they were special players

so when people found out that the Big O was doing shit like that on the REG. in his day....it gave a glimpse of just how SPECIAL he was....and he was doing it with gaudy scoring...
And still, won it all just once. The all around player can be very overrated at times.

[Lebron23]

I would agree with that...people are kidding themselves if they dont think Miami will win next year...BUT I will admit, the lakers MIGHT beat them. We'll have to wait and see


what did you think of the links that I posted??

I'll check it out later. I have a slow internet connection right now.

[jongib369]

Just something I want to mention, why don't people bring up Chamberlain coming CLOSE to a quadruple double?

1967-68 Age-31 23.8 RPG 8.6 Assists 24.3 Points and potentially 10 blocks per.. :crazysam:

[LikeABosh]

You say he should be a lock for top 10 but who is he ahead of? Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, Jabar?

[get these NETS]

And still, won it all just once. The all around player can be very overrated at times.

i don't get the just once.....

he did WIN though once he got a legit big man

how's this to stick a hole in your argument? the year Oscar did win his 1 ring...I bet that there were at least 9 centers who would eventually make the hall of fame.

leads me to beleive that it was a big man's league..and when paired with a great big man he won..

without one each year he was losing regardless of how great he was individually...

[Owl]

Definitely not. IMO, Oscar is somewhat overrated due to his legend status and the mystic of the triple double season. Also with many fans being so obsessive with and overrating 'all around' numbers.

He only has 1 ring as arguably the 3rd fiddle on a team led by Kareem, only led his team to more than 50 wins once in his entire career and won only 2 playoff series his entire career as the #1 option. What other player who would be considered a top 10 lock gets this type of a pass? Seriously.

His triple double season indicates that he was a good all around player but you have to look at those numbers into some kind of context because obviously the statistics were inflated back then. It was in a setting that can never be replicated in the NBA ever again. On average teams had about 30 more possessions a game, this is a massive edge, especially for assist and scoring numbers. The league had about 40-50% more rebounds in a game. Baylor at 6'5 averaged 20 boards a game while scoring 30 points. West at 6'2 got 8 a game. Don Kojis at 6'3 got 11 a game. The list goes on. Not diminishing the players themselves in any way but when you bring up the "triple double season", you just can't ignore those. Playing in a certain era should not give an advantage that players now don't have.
Yeah assists were crazy inflated back then.

Players (excluding Oscar) getting 10 or more assists per game
1961: 0
1962: 0
1963: 1 (Guy Rodgers, Wilts pg)
1964: 0 (Oscar leads in assists per game by 4)
1965: 0 (Oscar leads in assists per game by over 4)
1966: 1 (Guy Rodgers again)
1967: 1 (Guy Rodgers)
1968: 0

Versus what Magic and Isiah were getting in the mid 80s with hyper pace, better scoring (or worse defense) and much much more generous stat-keepers.

It wasn't an easy era to get assists and if you're not yet convinced of that look at Hall of Famer, 50 at 50 member and one time MVP runner up Lenny Wilkens assist totals through Oscar's prime. He couldn't crack 6 a game. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wilkele01.html

[get these NETS]

Just something I want to mention, why don't people bring up Chamberlain coming CLOSE to a quadruple double?

1967-68 Age-31 23.8 RPG 8.6 Assists 24.3 Points and potentially 10 blocks per.. :crazysam:
where do you get potentially 10 blocks per from?

[LikeABosh]

That era was ridiculously fast paced. A player like Lebron would average 38/15/15 back then

[WillC]

In my opinion, Oscar Robertson is firmly in the top 10 players ever.

In the last 5-10 or so years, he's become underrated historically as fans have started to value championship success over individual brilliance. That's why Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson have fallen down people's all-time rankings, despite being regarded as legends in their playing days.

Oscar deserves to be on a par with Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. He's a top 6 or 7 player of all-time, in terms of individual brilliance.

It's unfair to hold the lack of championship success against him; put James Worthy and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar next to him for a decade while the Big O was in his peak and I'm sure he'd have five championships just like Magic Johnson.

[jongib369]

You say he should be a lock for top 10 but who is he ahead of? Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, Jabar?
This is just my opinion so dont be offended or anything, but if I had to choose a player out of all of those taking team accomplishments out of the equation....Id have to say Kobe...which is tough, kobe is one of my favorite players...But like ive posted before this would be my reasoning

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/michael-jordan-vs-real-old-school-defense/

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

Lebron has a better overall impact...and considering the defenses of today, kobe is putting up Jordan amount of shots without the efficiency (range was a little different but still) Totally open to being wrong though, I dont know everything and I dont want to come across as a no it all.

[Lebron23]

In my opinion, Oscar Robertson is firmly in the top 10 players ever.

In the last 5-10 or so years, he's become underrated historically as fans have started to value championship success over individual brilliance. That's why Elgin Baylor and Oscar Robertson have fallen down people's all-time rankings, despite being regarded as legends in their playing days.

Oscar deserves to be on a par with Magic Johnson and Larry Bird. He's a top 6 or 7 player of all-time, in terms of individual brilliance.

It's unfair to hold the lack of championship success against him; put James Worthy and Kareem Abdul-Jabbar next to him for a decade while the Big O was in his peak and I'm sure he'd have five championships just like Magic Johnson.


Bit we are comparing his NBA Career to other NBA players. Oscar was good, but he was not in the same level as MJ, Kareem, Russell, Magic and Bird.

[jongib369]

where do you get potentially 10 blocks per from?
Harvey pollack

Fun facts

Wilt Chamberlain also reportedly recorded a quadruple-double in Game 1 of the 1967 Eastern Division Finals against the Boston Celtics, when he had 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocks.

Blocked shots were recorded after he retired, but Harvey Pollack asked his statisticians to count Chamberlain's blocks, and they got up to 25 one night

[get these NETS]

Bit we are comparing his NBA Career to other NBA players. Oscar was good, but he was not in the same level as MJ, Kareem, Russell, Magic and Bird.

how many other cincinnatti royals or milwaukee bucks are in the HOF?


After Kareem wasn't playing with Oscar...he dominated the league but didn't win JACKSHIT until he played with another alltime great pg

russell had ENTIRE teams in the HOF

Magic and Bird played with HOF players on each title team

[WillC]

Bit we are comparing his NBA Career to other NBA players. Oscar was good, but he was not in the same level as MJ, Kareem, Russell, Magic and Bird.

Ok, if you want to just compare team success, then go ahead. Oscar won't be top 10 but you'll need to move players like Sam Jones and John Havlicek into your top 15 or so.

Personally, I think we need a balance of team success and individual brilliance. The latter of which puts Oscar firmly in the conversation with Magic et al.

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

how many other cincinnatti royals or milwaukee bucks are in the HOF?


After Kareem wasn't playing with Oscar...he dominated the league but didn't win JACKSHIT until he played with another alltime great pg

russell had ENTIRE teams in the HOF

Magic and Bird played with HOF players on each title team

You do realize some of those guys became HOFs because of the success they had playing with Russell? It wasn't like he was LeBron going to a team that already had stars, he helped make those guys better. There's a reason he was voted MVP so much, and lots of guys would tell you he deserved it even more times than he got it.

[WillC]

You do realize some of those guys became HOFs because of the success they had playing with Russell? It wasn't like he was LeBron going to a team that already had stars, he helped make those guys better. There's a reason he was voted MVP so much, and lots of guys would tell you he deserved it even more times than he got it.

I'm the biggest Russell fan in the world (seriously, I may well be), however, to suggest that players like Cousy and Sharman weren't already stars is doing them a huge disservice. Same goes for Heinsohn.

[get these NETS]

You do realize some of those guys became HOFs because of the success they had playing with Russell? It wasn't like he was LeBron going to a team that already had stars, he helped make those guys better. There's a reason he was voted MVP so much, and lots of guys would tell you he deserved it even more times than he got it.

russell was a great player, but in the words of wilt "he only had one job to do, I had several"

I think rusell's player made the teams better and made the game easier for his teammates but the ones who made the hall were good/great players in their own right...became hall of famers because of the team success.

bottom line......Russell wasn't playing with chumps.



I get the feeling that Oscar was in fact playing with lesser players and chumps...and no good big man

[Sarcastic]

Imagine is we used team success in other sports to rank players, the way we do in basketball.

Ted Williams = unclutch scrub
Dan Marino = empty stats
Mark Messier would likely be considered better than Gretsky

[Owl]

You do realize some of those guys became HOFs because of the success they had playing with Russell? It wasn't like he was LeBron going to a team that already had stars, he helped make those guys better. There's a reason he was voted MVP so much, and lots of guys would tell you he deserved it even more times than he got it.
Perhaps some, but not many. He played with the best point guard of the 50s (and arguably the best players across the 50s though some might lean Pettit) Bob Cousy, the best shooting guard of the 50s (Sharman was a two way terror and a great shooter), an all time top 5 small forward lock in John Havlicek, the best shooting guard of the 60s (Sam Jones) though one could make a case for Hal Greer all of the above being named in the NBAs 50 best players at 50 in 1996/97.
Plus on top of that the numerous 20/10 guys including Tom Heinsohn (rated as the equal 16th greatest player of all-time by Keith Thompson's Heroes of the hardcourt), Willie Naulls and Bailey Howell, great defensive specialists like Tom "Satch" Sanders and K.C. Jones.
So tell me which guys Russell got into the Hall of Fame, I'm assuming you'd say the last two. I'd say the Celtics got them in but that's splitting hairs at this point, who else?

[steve]

Perhaps some, but not many. He played with the best point guard of the 50s (and arguably the best players across the 50s though some might lean Pettit) Bob Cousy, the best shooting guard of the 50s (Sharman was a two way terror and a great shooter), an all time top 5 small forward lock in John Havlicek, the best shooting guard of the 60s (Sam Jones) though one could make a case for Hal Greer all of the above being named in the NBAs 50 best players at 50 in 1996/97.
Plus on top of that the numerous 20/10 guys including Tom Heinsohn (rated as the equal 16th greatest player of all-time by Keith Thompson's Heroes of the hardcourt), Willie Naulls and Bailey Howell, great defensive specialists like Tom "Satch" Sanders and K.C. Jones.
So tell me which guys Russell got into the Hall of Fame, I'm assuming you'd say the last two. I'd say the Celtics got them in but that's splitting hairs at this point, who else?

KC Jones probably got into the Hall of Fame from playing on those Celtic teams. But you look at the other Hall of Famers on those teams, Cousy, Sharman, Ramsey (who I think you forgot to mention), Heinsohn, Sam Jones, and Hondo. All of them were making it into the Hall of Fame regardless of whether they played with Russell or not.

Robertson played with Twyman and Jerry Lucas (who for my money is one of the more overvalued NBA "stars" to come along) and then a few quality years from guys like Adrian Smith, Wayne Embry, and Bob Boozer. But Robertson never played on the quality of teams like the late '50s/'60s Celtics until he was past his prime.

[riseagainst]

This is just my opinion so dont be offended or anything, but if I had to choose a player out of all of those taking team accomplishments out of the equation....Id have to say Kobe...which is tough, kobe is one of my favorite players...But like ive posted before this would be my reasoning

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2011/10/michael-jordan-vs-real-old-school-defense/

http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/01/the-michael-jordan-era-defenses-vs-the-kobelebron-era-defenses/

Lebron has a better overall impact...and considering the defenses of today, kobe is putting up Jordan amount of shots without the efficiency (range was a little different but still) Totally open to being wrong though, I dont know everything and I dont want to come across as a no it all.


I've read your other posts. You trying to sound all diplomatic acting like a fan of Kobe's, but you aren't. You bring up Lebron while the thread has nothing to do with him. :lol obvious agenda.

[KG215]

Harvey pollack

Fun facts

Wilt Chamberlain also reportedly recorded a quadruple-double in Game 1 of the 1967 Eastern Division Finals against the Boston Celtics, when he had 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocks.

Blocked shots were recorded after he retired, but Harvey Pollack asked his statisticians to count Chamberlain's blocks, and they got up to 25 one night

Huh...it's like jlauber II. If you aren't related to him, he's going to nut himself once he finds your first 20 posts.

[get these NETS]

Harvey pollack

Fun facts

Wilt Chamberlain also reportedly recorded a quadruple-double in Game 1 of the 1967 Eastern Division Finals against the Boston Celtics, when he had 24 points, 32 rebounds, 13 assists and 12 blocks.

Blocked shots were recorded after he retired, but Harvey Pollack asked his statisticians to count Chamberlain's blocks, and they got up to 25 one night


I don't doubt that he did or could get quad doubles....

Nobody is debating Wilt's dominance......and the scoring was done differently in past eras


Wilt beasting on the league shouldn't diminish what the Big O did

[jongib369]

Huh...it's like jlauber II. If you aren't related to him, he's going to nut himself once he finds your first 20 posts.

I don't see anything wrong with briefly mentioning a player who possibly averaged a Quad on a thread about a player whose famous for averaging a triple. I'm not posting bibles, nor am I shoving facts down anyone's throat. I'm trying to be as humble as possible, I love this game and it's history...It's a basketball forum aren't we supposed to express that on here? :confusedshrug:


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luzf6tJLr81qfhek7.gif

[KG215]

I don't see anything wrong with briefly mentioning a player who possibly averaged a Quad on a thread about a player whose famous for averaging a triple. I'm not posting bibles, nor am I shoving facts down anyone's throat. I'm trying to be as humble as possible, I love this game and it's history...It's a basketball forum aren't we supposed to express that on here? :confusedshrug:


http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_luzf6tJLr81qfhek7.gif

No, I wasn't saying you're as bad or annoying like jlauber. Just some of your posts in this thread have been very jlauber-esque (in what's in the posts, not length). What you're posting is fine, and you're not posting stat after stat in 7-page essay form.

[jongib369]

I don't doubt that he did or could get quad doubles....

Nobody is debating Wilt's dominance......and the scoring was done differently in past eras


Wilt beasting on the league shouldn't diminish what the Big O did


haha whoops we had a missunderstanding...I just said that literally for fun facts...Wasn't trying to shove facts down anyone's throat..I didn't think you were doubting, and I didn't intend to come off like I was diminishing Oscar.

[jongib369]

oh okay, mind telling me what is jlauber esque? Just the Wilt Chamberlain thing? After reading a ton of threads on here I noticed people usually don't take his opinions seriously...so if theirs any way I can improve my posts I'm open ears

[jongib369]

I've read your other posts. You trying to sound all diplomatic acting like a fan of Kobe's, but you aren't. You bring up Lebron while the thread has nothing to do with him. :lol obvious agenda.
Since when is it a bad thing trying not to offend people? Not to be sanctimonious or anything, but a lot of people attack others opinions on here...I'm not into that. The user LikeABosh posted this

"You say he should be a lock for top 10 but who is he ahead of? Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, Kobe, Lebron, Jabar?"

and I replied even though it wasn't directed at me...I don't have an agenda, Kobe is the second best SG of all time IMO. Thats not an agenda against kobe making a tough decision out of all those HOF players.

[jongib369]

Just to mention, I'm from chicago and never had an opportunity to go to a game because of financial reasons...This upcoming season I plan on seeing a Bulls laker game to watch my 2 favorite active* players...Rose and Kobe. Just saying you don't know me, why be so quick to judge? :P

[AK47DR91]

In basketball winning and accolades supersede stats for most people's lists. If this were baseball he would easily be top 5.
It's just the way the NBA is, it's a superstar league. Always have been like this.

Just compare Finals MVP to World Series MVP or Super Bowl MVP, the Finals MVP is the one with mostly Hall of Famers and all-time greats. World Series, you get guys like Renteria, Eckstein, Wetteland. Same with Super Bowl, Dexter Jackson, Deione Branch, Rypein, etc. Both baseball and football are more of a team sport, so anybody can step it up at anytime. Not to say that the NBA isn't a team sport, but it's the least "team sport" compared to the NFL, MLB and NHL.

Fair or not, but the #1(or #1b) option on an NBA team will get most of the glory when his team wins but also get the most blame if his team loses.

[gengiskhan]

Fact # 1: Big O will NEVER EVER Drop out of Top 10 GOAT no matter what kobe, LBJ, Duncan do from here on out.

Fact # 2: Big O probably had the greatest ever Rookie year on the scrubs franchise.

Fact # 3: Big O transformed the game statistically. Even the likes of Bird, Jordan & Magic never came close.

Big O is a guaranteed "LOCK" as Top 10 GOAT.

Case Closed.



Many people say that he's never won an mvp, but when I look it up he won in 63-64. He also has a championship and multiple all-star/all nba team selections.

but every top ten player has those (it's a must). The main reason i believe this dude should be considered top ten is because of his insane stats. He is currently the only player EVER to average a triple double for a season and came close to doing it 3 other times

60-61 30.5ppg 9.7asts 10.1reb
rookie of the year


61-62 30.8ppg 11.4asts 12.5reb


62-63 28.3ppg 9.5asts 10.4reb
consider this an off year


63-64 31.4ppg 11.0asts 9.9reb
mvp year

in his 14 year career he ended with a average of 25.7ppg 9.5 asts and 7.5 reb. shot 48% from the field and 83% from the line




Whats the reasoning for leaving him out when he has a case for top 5 yet alone is never mentioned in people's top ten. You can't say its era because then we should take out Wilt and Russell.


not to mention he was a point guard putting up ridicoulous numbers like this

[Owl]

oh okay, mind telling me what is jlauber esque? Just the Wilt Chamberlain thing? After reading a ton of threads on here I noticed people usually don't take his opinions seriously...so if theirs any way I can improve my posts I'm open ears
The Jlauber history.
He is (to my mind anyway) a knowledgeable poster on basketball history.
He posts a lot on Wilt, but equally a lot of people bait him into talking about Wilt so ...
He inspired an appreciation type thread recently http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=272328
There are suggestions that he has changed his opinions/been inconsistent, perhaps to a degree that makes him flaky or unreliable. I don't know about this, it's possible that ambiguites in meaning and vagueness in definitions when talking about era cover this, TBH it's been a while time since I looked into it but the argument about this took place in this thread http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=195147 (as I recall it gets heated and strongly focused on minutiae and I got bored with it).
He has pet theories one example of which is Chamberlain outplayed KA-J who in turn outplayed Olajuwon when they played versus each other though I forget what this is usually used to prove or suggest, an idea he call bridging which would be fine for drawing limited conclusion in combination with other evidence.
He posts long long multi-post responses which he recycles. To some extent given the amount of time many posters end up reposting the same arguments and info and reformulating it this is probably a smart time saving device but to some it comes off as cut and pasting. Also the longer chains of posts are poorly suited to the format of a forum.
Oh and he's been nothing but polite to me personally in any conversations.


Anyway with regard to improving your posts you seem fine you've already got +2 rep (a - rep is a pretty good indication of a troll, a positive one usually suggest a good poster though very occasionally I see reasonably high ones I can't fathom) which after so few posts suggests good posting, fwiw it has much as I have in considerably longer(albeit much of my posting was in time when repping had been stopped).

And regarding not offending people a lot of people use this/any forum to pick arguments. I'm not above arguing but I'd like to think I'm open minded to learning/being persuaded. Basically you learn whether people are worth debating with or worth ignoring.

I haven't seen the schedule but I don't know whether there will be a game in which a fit Rose takes on LA.

Anyhow welcome to the forum :cheers:

[KG215]

oh okay, mind telling me what is jlauber esque? Just the Wilt Chamberlain thing? After reading a ton of threads on here I noticed people usually don't take his opinions seriously...so if theirs any way I can improve my posts I'm open ears

You're fine, and jlauber is a good and knowledgeable poster. It can just get exhausting seeing him post insanely long and recycled posts. I've learned a lot from him, though. I'm just in the Bill Russell camp because I place more of an emphasis on winning than some when compiling their top 10, 20, whatever. That's also why I have Oscar just outside my top 10. Just like with me constantly going back-and-forth and always switching Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe at spots 7-10, I have a hard time making up my mind on spots 11-13 between Oscar, West, and Moses Malone.

[riseagainst]

Fact # 1: Big O will NEVER EVER Drop out of Top 10 GOAT no matter what kobe, LBJ, Duncan do from here on out.

Fact # 2: Big O probably had the greatest ever Rookie year on the scrubs franchise.

Fact # 3: Big O transformed the game statistically. Even the likes of Bird, Jordan & Magic never came close.

Big O is a guaranteed "LOCK" as Top 10 GOAT.

Case Closed.


what if 10 people come along and each avgs at least 35-15-15 thru their respective careers of at least 14 years? and they all shoot at least 60/50/95????

[CavaliersFTW]

what if 10 people come along and each avgs at least 35-15-15 thru their respective careers of at least 14 years? and they all shoot at least 60/50/95????
than the lock gets busted

[1987_Lakers]

The Big-O never won ANYTHING until Kareem showed up.

And bringing up stats in this thread is pointless. A prime Oscar Robertson would average AT MOST 6 rpg in today's league and I doubt he reaches double digit assists because you have to be a great ball handler to average 10 apg in today's league, and Oscar Robertson wasn't a great ball handler.

[CavaliersFTW]

The Big-O never won ANYTHING until Kareem showed up.

And bringing up stats in this thread is pointless. A prime Oscar Robertson would average AT MOST 6 rpg in today's league and I doubt he reaches double digit assists because you have to be a great ball handler to averaged 10 apg in today's league, and Oscar Robertson wasn't a great ball handler.
you sound super convincing

[1987_Lakers]

Thank you.

[RRR3]

Imagine is we used team success in other sports to rank players, the way we do in basketball.

Ted Williams = unclutch scrub
Dan Marino = empty stats
Mark Messier would likely be considered better than Gretsky
baseball fans aren't retards:confusedshrug:

[ThaRegul8r]

Imagine is we used team success in other sports to rank players, the way we do in basketball.

Ted Williams = unclutch scrub
Dan Marino = empty stats

An oft-used but flawed example. People who use this generally haven't actually thought about it.

Baseball players have considerably less control over the outcome of a game that a basketball player does. Position players only come to bat 3-4 times a game, which is about once every three innings. Pitchers are more involved in what's going on, but only pitch every five games, and still need their batters to score runs for him.

Football is far too specialized. You have completely different teams for the offensive and defensive sides of the ball.

So why would they be held to the same standards as basketball players when they have less impact on a game than a basketball superstar does? It's obvious that people aren't actually thinking about it with they say things.

[KG215]

Imagine is we used team success in other sports to rank players, the way we do in basketball.

Ted Williams = unclutch scrub
Dan Marino = empty stats
Mark Messier would likely be considered better than Gretsky

To me baseball is more of an individual sport in a team setting. Outside of pitchers, not one player can consistently have a significant impact on the majority of the games he plays. Hitting a baseball is the hardest thing to do in sports, so a hitter isn't going to go 3/4 or 4/4 every other game and they have virtually zero impact on what the person hitting in front of and behind them do when they bat. Pitchers have the most significant impact on a game in my opinion, but they only play one out of every five games, and relievers who play two out of every for or five games usually only pitch an inning or two. I mean even when a pitcher pitches a perfect or near perfect game, a player only gets to bat three out of a team total of 27 times. That's just a little more than 10% of the game they can have a direct impact on while their team is at-bat. It's even less when you factor in the number of chances a player gets to make an out for their team while in the field.

Not that baseball isn't a team sport, I just think it's the least "team oriented" sport out of the big three American sports. For whatever reasons, baseball has always been a statistic driven game when it comes to discussing and ranking players. A player could have 10-12 prime seasons of .350/.400/.600, 45 HR, 125 RBI, 20 SB and never win a thing because the rest of the lineup isn't pulling their weight; and there's no possible way he can have any consistently significant impact on how often the players batting in front and behind him reach base.

Football is, in many regards, more of a team sport than even basketball. I've heard and read very convincing arguments for both. I've got a dad and several friends who are or were basketball coaches, and an uncle and some other friends who are or were football coaches. They've all made very good arguments as to why their sport is the "ultimate team sport." However, outside of QB's, I'm not sure any individual player can have a significant impact on the complete game because no one plays both offense and defense. Yes, for stretches a QB or RB on offense, or a linebacker or lineman on defense, can almost carry a team to a string of wins, but no one player on the football is able to consistently impact an entire game. This is why I can buy into the argument football is the ultimate team sport because, a QB/RB/WR can put up big numbers and get their team in the endzone 5 or 6 times a game, but they are still very reliant on their defense getting stops.

Basketball players, on the other hand, have the ability to make just as much impact on defense as they do on offense. All five players have to play offense and defense and, the vast majority of the time, it isn't going to be individual offense or defense that wins games and championships in basketball. Of course basketball is also the sport one individual can have the greatest impact on a team and the success their team has over the course of a season; I guess that would also help the argument that basketball is less of a team sport than football.

All of this, of course, is highly subjective and everyone may think otherwise. It really just depends

[INDI]

The Big-O never won ANYTHING until Kareem showed up.

And bringing up stats in this thread is pointless. A prime Oscar Robertson would average AT MOST 6 rpg in today's league and I doubt he reaches double digit assists because you have to be a great ball handler to average 10 apg in today's league, and Oscar Robertson wasn't a great ball handler.

And bill russell would avg about 16 and 12 in this age. He would also be closer to 1 championship then he would be to 11, since no team has a starting lineup of hall of famers and there are now 30 teams in the league.

[jongib369]

I respect your opinion but I cant see kevin love out rebounding Russell...how many BPG do you think he would get?

Plus, imagine if he was on Miami

[KG215]

And bill russell would avg about 16 and 12 in this age. He would also be closer to 1 championship then he would be to 11, since no team has a starting lineup of hall of famers and there are now 30 teams in the league.

And you base this on, what?

[INDI]

And you base this on, what?

That is in response to the previous post saying that oscar would only average around 6 Rebs. There is no way to know anything for a fact but we can take educated guesses based off of what you know. We know he was great but that the celtics had the ability to stack all the talent so as great as bill was, it was the dominance of the celts organization that got the 11 rings, of course he was a big part though. We also know that he was a good scorer not great and that was during a time where a 7 footer could truly dominate due to lack of brawn. We know that he was a great rebounder and defender so though he wouldn't be grabbing 20 boards, he would still be great in this area


Basically transfer his skill set to this day n time he is similar to a Dwight Howard. Of course no one knows for a fact but taking educated guesses you would come to a similar conclusion

[CavaliersFTW]

That is in response to the previous post saying that oscar would only average around 6 Rebs. There is no way to know anything for a fact but we can take educated guesses based off of what you know. We know he was great but that the celtics had the ability to stack all the talent so as great as bill was, it was the dominance of the celts organization that got the 11 rings, of course he was a big part though. We also know that he was a good scorer not great and that was during a time where a 7 footer could truly dominate due to lack of brawn. We know that he was a great rebounder and defender so though he wouldn't be grabbing 20 boards, he would still be great in this area


Basically transfer his skill set to this day n time he is similar to a Dwight Howard. Of course no one knows for a fact but taking educated guesses you would come to a similar conclusion
Tell me more about his HOF teammates, how many of them actually made all-star teams again? They got in the HOF once the HOF existed but how many of them were actually considered superior too the league's other players on other teams at the time? Is Satch Sanders and K.C. Jones really >>>>> to say, the Lakers Walt Hazzard or Rudy LaRusso?

Can you please flush out the details of what you mean by "lack of Brawn" as well? My sources all indicate a very small league densely packed full of centers like 240lb Nate Thurmond, 265lb Walt Bellamy, 255lb Wayne Embry, 260lb Wes Unseld, 300lb Wilt Chamberlain, 245lb Willis Reed, 240lb Elvin Hayes, 245lb Bill Bridges (etc etc)... Bill seems to me, to be the odd man out, at only 228lbs.. Why was he so dominant being so thin and how in any way is his competition lacking in "Brawn"... if anyone is lacking in Brawn it's Bill not his competition...

Also, interestingly, I've watched hours of Russell's footage, I don't really see any resemblance of his game too Dwight's... can you please explain what is "Dwight Howard"-like about his skillset? Which moves and habits do they have in common? Cause I can't recall any other than the dunk..

Ultimately my question to you is... do you have a single clue what your talking about?

[Champ]

I agree that Oscar is underrated. As are other NBA greats that had talent to burn but failed to win or win consistently. Pistol Pete is another example. Until this year, Lebron was another, and it remains to be seen if he can continue his recent success.

As others have noted, athletes in other sports have been plagued by this, including Marino, Ted Williams, Bobby Hull, among others.

To avoid this, when ranking players, I've always felt I put more stock into how good that player was than in career accomplishments, while most others weigh those qualities equally or even favor accomplishments over talent and skill. Of course, the two are often intertwined.

[jlauber]

Why the big deal? Look at all the players who were putting up 30-10-10 seasons in the "Oscar-era." It was common place. Which puts his feat of AVERAGING a 30-10-10 over the course of five straight seasons...COMBINED...into a better perspective. Everyone was doing it in the 60's.

BTW, as an interesting sidenote to the "pace" arguments...

In the 64-65 season, Oscar averaged 30.4 ppg, 9.0 rpg, 11.5 apg, and shot .480 from the floor, in an NBA that averaged 110.6 ppg on .426 shooting.

And, how about this...

In his 63-64 post-season, covering 10 games, Oscar averaged 29.3 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 8.4 apg...in an NBA post-season which averaged 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting (BTW, Chamberlain averaged 34.7 ppg, 25.2 rpg, and shot .543 in that same post-season, and with five games against Russell's Celtics.)

[Dictator]

Underrated rich man's Lebron?

[Owl]

Tell me more about his HOF teammates, how many of them actually made all-star teams again? They got in the HOF once the HOF existed but how many of them were actually considered superior too the league's other players on other teams at the time? Is Satch Sanders and K.C. Jones really >>>>> to say, the Lakers Walt Hazzard or Rudy LaRusso?

Can you please flush out the details of what you mean by "lack of Brawn" as well? My sources all indicate a very small league densely packed full of centers like 240lb Nate Thurmond, 265lb Walt Bellamy, 255lb Wayne Embry, 260lb Wes Unseld, 300lb Wilt Chamberlain, 245lb Willis Reed, 240lb Elvin Hayes, 245lb Bill Bridges (etc etc)... Bill seems to me, to be the odd man out, at only 228lbs.. Why was he so dominant being so thin and how in any way is his competition lacking in "Brawn"... if anyone is lacking in Brawn it's Bill not his competition...

Also, interestingly, I've watched hours of Russell's footage, I don't really see any resemblance of his game too Dwight's... can you please explain what is "Dwight Howard"-like about his skillset? Which moves and habits do they have in common? Cause I can't recall any other than the dunk..

Ultimately my question to you is... do you have a single clue what your talking about?
I'm assuming this is specifically a statement to/criticism of INDI otherwise I'd have some questions. Ones regarding why you've chosen to ignore the old 3 all-star per team maximum rule and why the list of centers skews heavily towards the latter half of Russell's career (particularly as some later career weights are being used such as Chamberlain and Bellamy). Not that Russell wasn't outweighed by centers in say 1962, but not a lot that could make the 240lbs+ list that you put forward (admittedly I'm not a weight/measurement collector as you are, and so could be relying on rookie weights).

If this is a "Don't compare Russ to Dwight just because they both blocked shots and rebounded (that's what he meant by skill set), and don't talk about brawn back then unless you know what you're talking about" that's fine.