Larry Bird is a LOCK in Top 5 GOAT

[gengiskhan]

I aint even kiddin'

Bird is a "face of the celtics franchise" not Russell or Havlechek. Its Bird.

3 consequitive season MVPs over Magic. :bowdown:

ROY win destroying Magic.

Ultimate team player.

probably the best player to have on the team without a Bball in his hand.

intangibles were off the charts

court vision & IQ off the charts

Leadership off the chart.

Probably the most clutch player ever. :bowdown:

Russell is NOT ahead of Bird in GOAT list.

Bird transformed the game forever.

My list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird

[Sarcastic]

http://i50.tinypic.com/28sautt.gif

[WockaVodka]

Russell > Bird, so no he is not a top 5 GOAT.

[midatlantic09]

No.

Bird isn't even really in the top 10 all-time. He's no better than D Wade.

[WockaVodka]

No.

Bird isn't even really in the top 10 all-time. He's no better than D Wade.
:wtf:

[LeBird]

IMO, yes, but depends on the person I guess.


Russell > Bird, so no he is not a top 5 GOAT.

Red Auerbach: Bird is the Greatest to play the game.

IIRC he said that if he could ever pick a player to start a franchise he'd pick Russell then trade him for Bird. :oldlol:

Hard to compare them though as they played in a completely different age and were very different players. Both very team-orientated and did what was necessary to win.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Future neg rep incoming.

[kennethgriffin]

i have him below kobe... and WAAAAY below russell

bill is the celtics. sh*t he could be argued as "is the NBA" if jordan never played

bill russell award = finals mvp

ultimate team player

greatest defensive player ever

mvp of atleast 8 of the celtics 11 titles

top 2 rebounder ever

top 5 play making/passing center ever

player/coach for 2 nba championship teams




#1 jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Kareem
#4 Wilt
#5 Magic
#6 Kobe
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem

[NumberSix]

http://i50.tinypic.com/28sautt.gif
Pop-cone

[riseagainst]

i have him below kobe... and WAAAAY below russell

bill is the celtics. sh*t he could be argued as "is the NBA" if jordan never played

bill russell award = finals mvp

ultimate team player

greatest defensive player ever

mvp of atleast 8 of the celtics 11 titles

top 2 rebounder ever

top 5 play making/passing center ever

player/coach for 2 nba championship teams




#1 jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Kareem
#4 Wilt
#5 Magic
#6 Kobe
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem


:bowdown: more or less my list except i have kareem at number 2, magic 3, russel 4, wilt 5.

[fpliii]

i have him below kobe... and WAAAAY below russell

bill is the celtics. sh*t he could be argued as "is the NBA" if jordan never played

bill russell award = finals mvp

ultimate team player

greatest defensive player ever

mvp of atleast 8 of the celtics 11 titles

top 2 rebounder ever

top 5 play making/passing center ever

player/coach for 2 nba championship teams




#1 jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Kareem
#4 Wilt
#5 Magic
#6 Kobe
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem

damn we have almost the same list bro

I have

#1 Jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Magic
#4 Wilt
#5 Kareem
#6 Kobe
#7 Bird
#8 Hakeem
#9 Duncan
#10 Shaq

[CAstill]

I aint even kiddin'

Bird is a "face of the celtics franchise" not Russell or Havlechek. Its Bird.

3 consequitive season MVPs over Magic. :bowdown:

ROY win destroying Magic.

Ultimate team player.

probably the best player to have on the team without a Bball in his hand.

intangibles were off the charts

court vision & IQ off the charts

Leadership off the chart.

Probably the most clutch player ever. :bowdown:

Russell is NOT ahead of Bird in GOAT list.

Bird transformed the game forever.

My list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird

He barely misses it at 6-8


1. Jordan.
2. Kobe
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6/7. Magic
7/6. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Duncan.
1o. Hakeem

[riseagainst]

He barely misses it at 6-8


1. Jordan.
2. Kobe
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6/7. Magic
7/6. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Duncan.
1o. Hakeem

:lol
goat list. :bowdown:

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

No.

Bird isn't even really in the top 10 all-time. He's no better than D Wade.
I LOVE comments like this ^^^
It makes it easy to discover the idiots to ignore.

[CAstill]

:lol
goat list. :bowdown:

:pimp:

[ThaRegul8r]

IIRC he said that if he could ever pick a player to start a franchise he'd pick Russell then trade him for Bird. :oldlol:

You recall incorrectly.

As is often the case of people here, you've twisted it to fit your purposes.

[LeBird]

You recall incorrectly.

As is often the case of people here, you've twisted it to fit your purposes.

Ehem...

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/halloffame/jersey?id=6857227


Red Auerbach was once asked if he had to pick a player to start a team, would he choose Bill Russell or Larry Bird? Auerbach thought it over and said he'd take Russell. Then, he quickly added, "Then I'd trade for Bird."

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I've seen and heard with my own eyes and ears Red say that "the one player I would take to start a team would be Larry Bird". He's obviously conflicted about this issue because he has said it both ways

[Sarcastic]

Ehem...

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/halloffame/jersey?id=6857227

He's not saying he would trade Russell for Bird.

[1987_Lakers]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell

4. Magic
5. Bird


Jordan, Kareem, & Russell should be the only ones that have an argument for the GOAT. Jordan for obvious reasons, Russell because he has 11 rings and is the greatest defensive player in history and Kareem because he was the most dominant|consistent center we have ever seen, 6 NBA MVPs, 6 time NBA champion.

At their absolute best Bird was better than Magic, but Magic does have more career accomplishments and a longevity edge over Bird which is the reason I have him ahead.

I just can't put Wilt in the top 5. He cared more about himself than winning. I have him at #6.

[LeBird]

He's not saying he would trade Russell for Bird.

That's exactly what he said.

[Sarcastic]

That's exactly what he said.

It says "trade for Bird", not "trade him for Bird".

[LeBird]

It says "trade for Bird", not "trade him for Bird".

And who do you think he'd have in his side to trade for Bird? He's asked a question where there is one big player as the variable to success. Who is he gonna trade for Bird? The lesser likes? Pretty safe to assume he'd have to trade Russell. Also:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/flashbacks/1988flash.html


Several weeks ago, at a $1,500-a-couple dinner honoring Bird, with the proceeds going to the New England Sports Museum, a $250,000 statue of Bird by Armand LaMontagne was unveiled. Auerbach stood up that night and said, ''If I had to start a team, the one guy in all history I would take would be Larry Bird. This is the greatest ballplayer who ever played the game.'' To say this took an extraordinary amount of ''soul-searching'' on Auerbach's part. It meant that Bill Russell was No. 2.

[lilgodfather1]

Bird is not a lock for top 5. Top 7 though for sure.

[CAstill]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell

4. Magic
5. Bird


Jordan, Kareem, & Russell should be the only ones that have an argument for the GOAT. Jordan for obvious reasons, Russell because he has 11 rings and is the greatest defensive player in history and Kareem because he was the most dominant|consistent center we have ever seen, 6 NBA MVPs, 6 time NBA champion.

At their absolute best Bird was better than Magic, but Magic does have more career accomplishments and a longevity edge over Bird which is the reason I have him ahead.

I just can't put Wilt in the top 5. He cared more about himself than winning. I have him at #6.


I think for a portion of his career yes but he got it later on.
It's the reason he's not ringless. He was the best player
on a GOAT team in 67 with a GOAT playoff run.

[ThaRegul8r]

Ehem...

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/boston/halloffame/jersey?id=6857227

I don't see where he said he'd pick Russell and then trade him for Bird. Could you point it out for me?

[Kobe 4 The Win]

That's exactly what he said.

:biggums:

That's not at all what he said.

[LeBird]

You guys are strictly right, I guess I'd assume he'd have to trade the only comparable player in the team (Russell) in order to get Bird. Nevertheless, the second link quite clearly points to my conclusion (that he considered Bird the better player to start a team with, and the best player ever) being right.

[ThaRegul8r]

You guys are strictly right, I guess I'd assume he'd have to trade the only comparable player in the team (Russell) in order to get Bird.

There's your problem. You ASSUMED because you have an agenda and were looking for anything to confirm your agenda and thus twisted facts. No different from any other agenda-driven person.

And you couldn't even just stop to think about it?

He would pick Russell and trade him for Bird...

... instead of simply choosing Bird with the pick in the first place?

:facepalm

You couldn't see how dumb that is? Since he had the pick to begin with, he could choose the one he wanted most at the beginning.

[LeBird]

Erm, no. I assumed by saying he'd take Russell then trade him for Bird that it was his way of paying homage to Russell's talent and their relationship but saying that he still thought Bird the better player. Kind of how Riley said if the game was on the line he'd let Jordan take the last shot; but if his life was on the line he'd let Bird take it.

Unfortunately, for you, my 'agenda' just happened to be correct as I have given you another source where he clearly says he'd pick Bird first and thinks he was the best player ever.

There goes your agenda for seeing something which doesn't exist (i.e. paranoia).

[DixieNourmous]

Amazing how no one has Kareem at #1

Apparently no one has seen him play or checked stats of KAJ against their emotional favorites.
Let me help you all out.... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

[fpliii]

Amazing how no one has Kareem at #1

Apparently no one has seen him play or checked stats of KAJ against their emotional favorites.
Let me help you all out.... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

what case does Kareem have to be ranked ahead of Magic?

[DixieNourmous]

what case does Kareem have to be ranked ahead of Magic?

I just gave you the answer / proof. over MJ, Russel.ect.

[alenleomessi]

bird> everyone except jordan and kareem

[CAstill]

what case does Kareem have to be ranked ahead of Magic?

Was better the better scorer and by far the better defender.
Magic Impact can't be denied but they have similar
success and results. Kareem edges him out in those
as he does on the GOAT list.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

what case does Kareem have to be ranked ahead of Magic?
how about more MVPs than anyone...EVER.
GOAT stats too.

[Champ]

Skill-wise, I think Bird is the second greatest player of all time.

But a truncated career knocks him down on these types of lists, and one could argue it's deserved.

As such, I'm more comfortable placing him at or around 5.

[Hands of Iron]

Not necessarily a lock, though he has a pretty strong case.

[pauk]

Why not... I have it:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Wilt
5. Bird/Magic
6. Magic/Bird
7. Shaq
8. Duncan
9. Kobe
10. Hakeem
11-15. Moses, Lebron, West, Julius etc.

[jlauber]

Amazing how no one has Kareem at #1

Apparently no one has seen him play or checked stats of KAJ against their emotional favorites.
Let me help you all out.... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

Well, if Kareem is #1, where do we put Moses?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=255307


How great was Moses Malone? The 6-10 center faced the 7-2 Kareem in 40 total games from the 76-77 season, thru Kareem's last season in 88-89.

Some here claim that Kareem's peak was in that 76-77 season, although I strongly believe that the most dominant Kareem played in the early 70's. His statistical peak came in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons.

Kareem was 29 in the 76-77 season, while Moses was 21. However, Moses jumped right to the ABA at age 19, so he was already in his third professional season by the time the two first met.

Now, granted, the two probably did not exclusively defend each other in every game, nor were they on the floor at the same time in portions of those games.

There are several interesting aspects to this "rivalry." I am only posting the known stats that I could find, and perhaps there are some here who can provide even more info. I did come up with every one of their scoring H2H's, all 40 of them. However, I could only find their FG%'s and rebounding numbers in their last 16 games.

And overall, Kareem team's went 21-19 against Moses, which was surprising, since Kareem played with much more talented teams in nearly all of their 13 seasons in the league together. In facr, Moses only played on ONE team that ever had a better record than Kareem, in those 13 seasons.

However, while Kareem's teams enjoyed 20-13 margin in their regular season H2H's, Moses' team went 6-1 against Kareem's in the post-season. BTW, Kareem's team's were often leveled in the post-season, despite having better regular season records. Included in those post-season H2H's, was the 80-81 Rockets, at 40-42, beating Kareem's 54-28 (Magic was injured and missed 37 games that season), 2-1 in the first round of the playoffs. And, of course, Moses' 82-83 Sixers, which went 65-17 swept Kareem's 58-24 Lakers, 4-0. That was the ONLY season in which Moses had a more talented roster, and they were clearly better, going a combined 6-0 against Kareem's team in the overall season. However, Kareem did miss one of their regular season H2H's that year, so Moses only went 5-0 against him that year.

How about their personal battles? While a much more prime Kareem, at age 29, outscored the 21 year old Moses in their first year H2H's, it was not a dramatic difference. Kareem outscored him in three of their four games, but his high game was only 29 points. And, by their fourth game that season, Moses outscored Kareem, 26-23.

Another interesting aspect was that while both players started declining somewhat after the 84-85 season, Moses' decline was sharper. Still. Moses generally outplayed Kareem even after that. But, Moses was not the dominant player that he was from the 78-79 season thru the 84-85 season.

And while Kareem won the MVP award in the 79-80 season, Moses was probably already the better player. In the 78-79 season, a 23 year old Moses exploded, and averaged 24.8 ppg, on .540 shooting, with an astonishing 17.6 rpg average (winning the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game.) Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, and shot .577. In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 24.8 ppg, on a sensational .604 shooting, but was on a severe decline in the rebounding department, only getting 10.8 rpg. Meanwhile, Moses was at 25.8 ppg, .502 shooting, and grabbing 14.5 rpg. BUT, H2H in that Kareem MVP season, Moses DRAMATICALLY outscored Kareem, by an average margin of 30 ppg to 20 ppg. And, I have no doubt that he probably dominated Kareem on the glass, as well.

From that 79-80 season, on, Moses was CLEARLY the better player. While Kareem's numbers continued to decline, Moses jusr DOMINATED the league. From the 80-81 season thru the 84-85 season, Moses was THE best player in the league (sorry Larry and Magic, but Moses was UNSTOPPABLE.) He LED the league in rebounding EVERY season in those five years, and and scoring seasons as high as 27.8 ppg, and even 31.1 ppg.

And, the Kareem-Moses H2H's, from the 79-80 thru the 84-85 seasons reflected Moses COMPLETE DOMINATION of Kareem, as well.

After that, both declined, and while Moses generally outplayed Kareem, neither were putting up spectacular numbers.

In any case, in their 40 H2H games, Moses held a staggering 25-12-3 margin in their scoring battles. Not only that, but in their 7 playoff games, Moses enjoyed a solid 5-2 edge. And, Moses held a whopping 11-6 margin in 30+ point games against Kareem.

Kareem's two highest games against Moses were 34 and 36. Meanwhile, Moses had games of 34, 34, 35, 36, 37, 37, 38, and 39 against Kareem. And in their post-season H2H's, Moses held a 2-1 edge in 30+ point games (Kareem's high was 32, while Moses had games of 33, and even 38 in their playoff battles.)

Rebounding? As expected, Moses just CRUSHED Kareem on the glass. In the known 16 games in which I could find their rebounding totals, Moses went an unbelieveable 16-0 against Kareem. And some were by HUGE margins. For instance, in the '83 Finals, Moses not only outrebounded Kareem, 4-0, he held a MASSIVE 18-8 rpg differential.

Not only that, but given the fact that Moses was a better rebounder in EVERY season in their 13 years in the league together, there was a very good chance that Moses won the VAST MAJORITY of their rebounding H2H's. I wouldn't be surprised if the overall margin was something like a 35-5 edge (or maybe even higher.)

Kareem did SLIGHTLY outshoot Moses from the floor in those 16 H2H games, but it was very close, and overall, Kareem shot .523 in those 16 games (again, from the 82-83 season thru the 88-89 season.) Moses shot .472 overall in those last 16 H2H games.

All of which is interesting. For instance, in Kareem's 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, against Moses, he averaged 22 ppg on .513 shooting from the field against Moses in their four H2H's. Against a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem, in those two seasons, and covering 10 H2H games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on a mind-boggling .630 shooting. Meanwhile, Moses averaged 23 ppg on .484 shooting against Kareem, all while outrebounding him by an average differential of 12-5 rpg.

So, for those that question Moses's defense, they had better take a closer look. He was clearly a FORCE against Kareem. Once again, Moses' dodged Kareem's truly dominant seasons ('71-73), but even a young Moses was a near match for a near prime Kareem. And a PRIME Moses just ABUSED an older Kareem (even in a Kareem MVP season in 79-80.)


Continued...

[jlauber]

Continuing...


Here are the 40 H2H's between Kareem and Moses...

76-77

1.

M 4
K 18 W

2.

M 17 W
K 28

3.

M 19
K 29 W

4.

M 26 W
K 23


77-78

1.

M 20 W (dominated glass)
K 32

2.

M 21
K 19 W

3.

M 29
K 22 W


78-79

1.

M 32
K 28 W

2.

M 34 W
K 34


79-80

1.

M 32
K 24 W

2.

M 29
K 15 W


80-81

1.

M 26
K 10 W

2.

M 17 W
K 18

3.

M 28
K 22 W

4.

M 29
K 30 W

5.

M 34 W
K 36

Playoffs

1.

M 38 W
K 21

2.

M 33
K 27 W

3.

M 23 W
K 32



81-82

1.

M 36 W
K 33

2.

M 37
K 21 W

3.

M 23
K 23 W

4.

M 39
K 12 W

5.

M 37
K 20 W


82-83

1.

M 12-22 5-8 14 29 W
K 7-11 1-2 2 15

2.

Kareem did not play

Finals

1.

M 9-20 9-12 18 27 W
K 8-15 4-6 4 20

2.

M 8-10 8-13 12 24 W
K 11-17 1-2 4 23

3.

M 10-19 8-13 19 28 W
K 8-20 7-8 15 23

4.

M 9-22 6-9 23 24 W
K 10-15 8-10 7 28


83-84

1.

M 6-13 5-8 11 18
K 5-15 2-4 5 12 W

2.

M 8-17 6-9 11 22 W
K 14-21 1-1 6 29


84-85

1.

M 12-21 11-16 13 35 W
K 12-23 0-2 6 24

2.

M 5-13 6-7 14 16
K 9-19 5-7 9 23 W


85-86

1.

M 4-11 6-8 9 14
K 6-12 1-1 4 13 W

2.

M 9-21 9-14 12 27
K 12-22 4-5 5 28 W


86-87

1.

M 7-15 7-8 10 21
K 6-13 3-5 6 15 W

2.

M 10-22 7-10 15 27 W
K 6-13 5-6 6 17


87-88

1.

M 10-19 6-11 9 26 W
K 12-22 1-2 6 25

2.

Kareem did not play


88-89

1.

M 5-12 6-9 16 16
K 7-13 2-2 4 16 W

2.

M 4-14 6-8 11 14 W
K 2-7 0-0 6 4

Continuing...

[jlauber]

Amazing how no one has Kareem at #1

Apparently no one has seen him play or checked stats of KAJ against their emotional favorites.
Let me help you all out.... http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/abdulka01.html

Continued...

I won't bother copying-and-pasting his achievements...it would take three full posts to accomplish that, but just take about 10 minutes and read thru them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain

Now, Kareem's resume doesn't look so impressive does it?

[funnystuff]

He barely misses it at 6-8


1. Jordan.
2. Kobe
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6/7. Magic
7/6. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Duncan.
1o. Hakeem
:facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kareem has more rings, finals mvps, mvps, all nba teams, all nba first teams, allstar teams, all defensive teams, all defensive first teams, points, playoff points than Wilt

[CAstill]

Yeah Kobe! The second best player of all time. Show some respect. Hater.

[andgar923]

I aint even kiddin'

Bird is a "face of the celtics franchise" not Russell or Havlechek. Its Bird.

3 consequitive season MVPs over Magic. :bowdown:

ROY win destroying Magic.

Ultimate team player.

probably the best player to have on the team without a Bball in his hand.

intangibles were off the charts

court vision & IQ off the charts

Leadership off the chart.

Probably the most clutch player ever. :bowdown:

Russell is NOT ahead of Bird in GOAT list.

Bird transformed the game forever.

My list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird

If there's one player that i'd select as being the GOAT over MJ, it's Bird.

[nycelt84]

And who do you think he'd have in his side to trade for Bird? He's asked a question where there is one big player as the variable to success. Who is he gonna trade for Bird? The lesser likes? Pretty safe to assume he'd have to trade Russell. Also:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/1998/bird/flashbacks/1988flash.html

When Red made those comments it seemed to me at least he was caught up in the moment with Bird who was dominating at the time as a current player. In his later books he went back to his usual position choosing Russell over every other player.

[RRR3]

http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/b2d9c8eec1be32a0b7593c43c7b9e792.jpg



http://fotos.fotoflexer.com/b2d9c8eec1be32a0b7593c43c7b9e792.jpg



:facepalm :facepalm kobe kidz:roll: :oldlol: :roll: :facepalm

[Champ]

When Red made those comments it seemed to me at least he was caught up in the moment with Bird who was dominating at the time as a current player. In his later books he went back to his usual position choosing Russell over every other player.

IIRC, both Cousy and K.C. Jones also said they thought Bird was the best ever, but as with Auerbach, it was during Bird's playing days.

[jlauber]

Kareem has more rings, finals mvps, mvps, all nba teams, all nba first teams, allstar teams, all defensive teams, all defensive first teams, points, playoff points than Wilt

And yet was never the dominant player that Chamberlain was. BTW, the two faced many of the same centers, and yet, Kareem didn't come within the other side of the galaxy of dominating them the way Wilt did.

Furthermore, how about comparing each of their first ten seasons, and when they were in their primes? Wilt was better at everything, including winning (hell, in their four years in the league together, Wilt went to three Finals, while Kareem went to one.) Not only that, but those that actually SAW the two play H2H in the '71 and '72 playoffs would tell you that an OLD Chamberlain outplayed a PRIME Kareem.

Of course, had Chamberlain had TEN seasons with MAGIC, and I have no doubt that he would have won more rings than Kareem in his career.

[CAstill]

Such an impressive insult. I'm stumped with that one.
What's your beef anyways? Don't agree with my Kobe ranking?
Typical hater lol.

[RRR3]

Such an impressive insult. I'm stumped with that one.
What's your beef anyways? Don't agree with my Kobe ranking?
Typical hater lol.
No one in their right minds thinks Kobe is 2nd to MJ are you insane? :roll: :roll: :roll: :facepalm

[CAstill]

No I'm logical and reasonable. Kobe is second. Get over it.
You can't tell me anyone better other than Jordan.
You can show stats of team success relative to circumstances
that can make a player seem better but based on skill? Hell NO.

[RRR3]

No I'm logical and reasonable. Kobe is second. Get over it.
You can't tell me anyone better other than Jordan.
You can show stats of team success relative to circumstances
that can make a player seem better but based on skill? Hell NO.
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Magic
Bird

:sleeping

[scandisk_]

If there's one player that i'd select as being the GOAT over MJ, it's Bird.

ditto, Bird was that good.

[CAstill]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Kareem> Arguments can be made I agree. But his lack of skill
is what hurts him. He can't do everything on the court. Jordan and Kobe can.
He is a GOAT though. Tier 1.
Wilt> Too inconsistent. Lost more battles then he should have.
Isn't a clutch freethrow shooter. Couldn't hit a jumpshoot if i needed him too.
Goat arguments can be made as well though.
Shaq> Ummm Hack-A-Shaq? Horrible freethrow shooter. Can't close a game.
Are you serious? lol
Magic> He's more well rounded and has accomplishments to boost but
you put the best defenders on him and he'll go down. You can contain him.
Defense isn't on the other GOAT's levels as well.
Bird> Same as magic. Very well rounded but you put the best
defenders on him you can contain him. Some days I feel like
Bird deserves the 3 spot but he doesn't seem more effective than
the above mentioned.

[Dictator]

He barely misses it at 6-8


1. Jordan.
2. Kobe
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6/7. Magic
7/6. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Duncan.
1o. Hakeem

:lol Hell No.

[jlauber]

[QUOTE=RRR3]Kareem> Arguments can be made I agree. But his lack of skill
is what hurts him. He can't do everything on the court. Jordan and Kobe can.
He is a GOAT though. Tier 1.
Wilt> Too inconsistent. Lost more battles then he should have.
Isn't a clutch freethrow shooter. Couldn't hit a jumpshoot if i needed him too.
Goat arguments can be made as well though. Shaq> Ummm Hack-A-Shaq? Horrible freethrow shooter. Can't close a game.
Are you serious? lol
Magic> He's more well rounded and has accomplishments to boost but
you put the best defenders on him and he'll go down. You can contain him.
Defense isn't on the other GOAT's levels as well.
Bird> Same as magic. Very well rounded but you put the best
defenders on him you can contain him. Some days I feel like
Bird deserves the 3 spot but he doesn't seem more effective than
the above mentioned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCWrGWuU2Ak

[clipps]

No.

Bird isn't even really in the top 10 all-time. He's no better than D Wade.

:biggums:

[CAstill]

I agree that he had a good mid range pop up game but
he's not doing that against the best defenders. He
dominated the best defenders doing what he does best.
Back them down. He's not outshooting them lol.

[Boston C's]

i have him below kobe... and WAAAAY below russell

bill is the celtics. sh*t he could be argued as "is the NBA" if jordan never played

bill russell award = finals mvp

ultimate team player

greatest defensive player ever

mvp of atleast 8 of the celtics 11 titles

top 2 rebounder ever

top 5 play making/passing center ever

player/coach for 2 nba championship teams




#1 jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Kareem
#4 Wilt
#5 Magic
#6 Kobe
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem


Id switch bird with kobe and that would pretty much be my list although from day to day my 7-10 changes lol... Kobe will be above bird when he retires though especially when he gets closer to the all time points record

[DixieNourmous]

Continued...

I won't bother copying-and-pasting his achievements...it would take three full posts to accomplish that, but just take about 10 minutes and read thru them...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Career_achievements_of_Wilt_Chamberlain

Now, Kareem's resume doesn't look so impressive does it?


You post Head to Head and Kareem did great (by your post). Not always on top, but not all players dominate every player every time.

You cannot deny , Having the most MVP awards in the history of the NBA, AND scoring more points than ANYONE in the NBA Would put Kareem as GOAT to any reasonable fan. Unfortunately, ISH is full of kids that only know the flashy players of recent past till today.

GOAT is KAJ. Real talk

[DKLaker]

Sorry OP........NO!!!!! :no: :no: :no: :no:

[TheBigVeto]

I aint even kiddin'

Bird is a "face of the celtics franchise" not Russell or Havlechek. Its Bird.

3 consequitive season MVPs over Magic. :bowdown:

ROY win destroying Magic.

Ultimate team player.

probably the best player to have on the team without a Bball in his hand.

intangibles were off the charts

court vision & IQ off the charts

Leadership off the chart.

Probably the most clutch player ever. :bowdown:

Russell is NOT ahead of Bird in GOAT list.

Bird transformed the game forever.

My list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird

Bird is top 5 GOAT but no he is not the face of the Celtics above Russell. In Celtics legacy and NBA history, Russell is above Bird and one of the only 3 candidates who deserved to be named overall GOAT (other candidates are Jordan and Jabbar). You ask Larry himself and he will concur without a doubt.

[ThaRegul8r]

Russell is above Bird and one of the only 3 candidates who deserved to be named overall GOAT (other candidates are Jordan and Jabbar). You ask Larry himself and he will concur without a doubt.

He said it back then when all the GOAT talk was going on.


Larry Bird says that Bill Russell was a better player than he is.

So did Kevin McHale.


Who is the greatest player ever? "In my mind, it's Bill Russell," said fellow Celtic fraternity member Kevin McHale.

[LeBird]

Russell's teammates and coach said Bird was better than Russell.

Anyway, you're investing too much into subjective assessments. They're useful, but let's not pretend that they define the match-up. What you can say with safety is that they are both greats deserving to be in the consideration for the best ever.

Personally, I have Bird. I think Russell is a bit overrated (in the sense that people think his titles put him out of reach for everybody) and his intangibles don't add up when you compare him to someone of his own era like Wilt. I feel basketball fans and pundits place a disproportionate amount of importance on trophies won. It's important, but then again one must look at the teams they played on and against.

[Optimus Prime]

Bird would have had a case for Top 5 easily if his back had held out and his health didn't fail him.

OP is horrible BTW. :kobe:

[KOBE143]

He barely misses it at 6-8


1. Jordan.
2. Kobe
3. Wilt
4. Kareem
5. Russell
6/7. Magic
7/6. Bird
8. Shaq
9. Duncan.
1o. Hakeem
this :bowdown:

but I have Russell and Wilt at 9 and 10

[ralph_i_el]

No.

Bird isn't even really in the top 10 all-time. He's no better than D Wade.


you aren't too bright are you?

[Math2]

Bird is a "face of the celtics franchise" not Russell or Havlechek. Its Bir



Yes, he is the ultimate Celtic....



Russell is NOT ahead of Bird in GOAT list.



No.


Russell > Bird, so no he is not a top 5 GOAT.

Bold = yes......unbold = :facepalm Just because someone is better than some doesn't mean they can't be in top 5. Wait, Russell is better than Wilt, so Wilt can't be in the top 5. No matter what!


No.

Bird isn't even really in the top 10 all-time. He's no better than D Wade.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: This thread just gets worse and worse

[JellyBean]

I aint even kiddin'

Bird is a "face of the celtics franchise" not Russell or Havlechek. Its Bird.

3 consequitive season MVPs over Magic. :bowdown:

ROY win destroying Magic.

Ultimate team player.

probably the best player to have on the team without a Bball in his hand.

intangibles were off the charts

court vision & IQ off the charts

Leadership off the chart.

Probably the most clutch player ever. :bowdown:

Russell is NOT ahead of Bird in GOAT list.

Bird transformed the game forever.

My list:

1. MJ
2. Kareem
3. Magic
4. Wilt
5. Bird

:facepalm This must be a joke.

[Bigsmoke]

Yeah Kobe! The second best player of all time. Show some respect. Hater.

.... yeah ok

[Hands of Iron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flT88MH8hAM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

:bowdown:

[Freedom Kid7]

I don't know if I agree with OP, but he certainly is a top five in my list. He had one of the most complete offensive games (could pass, could shoot, could run the floor pretty well, had a great IQ, the list goes on) of all time for sure. However, no matter what Round Mound or anyone says, he was by no means a defensive master. His defense was his greatest weakness without a doubt. If he could've guarded Worthy a bit better, maybe he has an extra ring. I still have him at five though because he was still a mastermind on the offense, and did the most with the least athleticism so to speak (he couldn't run or jump, but he'd still give you 20/10 and a fair bit of assists).

[Djahjaga]

Kareem> Arguments can be made I agree. But his lack of skill
is what hurts him. He can't do everything on the court. Jordan and Kobe can.
He is a GOAT though. Tier 1.
Wilt> Too inconsistent. Lost more battles then he should have.
Isn't a clutch freethrow shooter. Couldn't hit a jumpshoot if i needed him too.
Goat arguments can be made as well though.
Shaq> Ummm Hack-A-Shaq? Horrible freethrow shooter. Can't close a game.
Are you serious? lol
Magic> He's more well rounded and has accomplishments to boost but
you put the best defenders on him and he'll go down. You can contain him.
Defense isn't on the other GOAT's levels as well.
Bird> Same as magic. Very well rounded but you put the best
defenders on him you can contain him. Some days I feel like
Bird deserves the 3 spot but he doesn't seem more effective than
the above mentioned.


I'm not entirely sure where you're getting this. While defense is probably the weak point of both players (though, Bird's incredible hands and coordination made him a serious team defensive threat), I would challenge you to cite cases where "the best defenders" have shut down Larry or Magic. These are two players that are considered to have been unguardable because they could dominate without scoring, and without dominating the ball. There are many ways to destroy your defender, scoring on him being just one. In any case, they were more than capable of destroying their defenders by scoring on them (Bird especially, but Magic was an incredible scoring threat, as well, especially when he took over as the primary scoring option for the Lakers in the late 80s).

I would recommend this series of YouTube videos, which detail Bird's work and effectiveness against the best defenders of his era (which came in all shapes and sizes), including Michael Cooper (first DPOY ever, iirc), Rodman (2x DPOY), Jordan (1x DPOY), and Pippen (no explanation required).

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIKH2fb_PxA

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TxC_k9Bv0&feature=relmfu

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn8qTjVED5w&feature=relmfu


Disclosure time: I wasn't around to have watched either play, and I've followed ISH long enough to know that this disqualifies me from being able to say a lot of this stuff, but as a fan of the game and of its history, I'm just calling it like I see it. Also, that was my very first post on here! So, cheers! :cheers: :banana:

[Hands of Iron]

Bird did just about everything at an ATG level on the floor short of man-to-man defense. An elite scorer, shooter, excellent efficiency from the field overall, long range and free throw line; dangerous from everywhere on the floor, off the dribble and playing off the ball, an excellent rebounder, arguably the greatest passing forward of all-time, clutch as all hell, an instinctive, all-hustle team defender... He's got the stats and trophy case to merit his greatness as well.

[Freedom Kid7]

Bird did just about everything at an ATG level on the floor short of man-to-man defense. An elite scorer, shooter, excellent efficiency from the field overall, long range and free throw line; dangerous from everywhere on the floor, off the dribble and playing off the ball, an excellent rebounder, arguably the greatest passing forward of all-time, clutch as all hell, an instinctive, all-hustle team defender... He's got the stats and trophy case to merit his greatness as well.
:applause: :applause: . Agreed 100%

[Hands of Iron]

I'm not entirely sure where you're getting this. While defense is probably the weak point of both players (though, Bird's incredible hands and coordination made him a serious team defensive threat), I would challenge you to cite cases where "the best defenders" have shut down Larry or Magic. These are two players that are considered to have been unguardable because they could dominate without scoring, and without dominating the ball. There are many ways to destroy your defender, scoring on him being just one. In any case, they were more than capable of destroying their defenders by scoring on them (Bird especially, but Magic was an incredible scoring threat, as well, especially when he took over as the primary scoring option for the Lakers in the late 80s).

I would recommend this series of YouTube videos, which detail Bird's work and effectiveness against the best defenders of his era (which came in all shapes and sizes), including Michael Cooper (first DPOY ever, iirc), Rodman (2x DPOY), Jordan (1x DPOY), and Pippen (no explanation required).

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIKH2fb_PxA

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TxC_k9Bv0&feature=relmfu

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn8qTjVED5w&feature=relmfu


Disclosure time: I wasn't around to have watched either play, and I've followed ISH long enough to know that this disqualifies me from being able to say a lot of this stuff, but as a fan of the game and of its history, I'm just calling it like I see it. Also, that was my very first post on here! So, cheers! :cheers: :banana:

Looks like I accidently bumped this off with my reply. Great first post.

[Micku]

Bird or Russell could be the face of the Celtics. When I think of the Celtics, I think of Bird. When I think of the Lakers, I think of Magic. It's different for each person. There are rarely absolutes about this sort of thing. Everybody is right and wrong.

[KOBE143]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird

So yes he's top 5 GOAT..

[Alan Shore]

he made others around him better, floor impact
bbiq second to none
clutch, played big in big games
will to win
leadership

only 3 players are ahead of him

russell
jordan
magic

[riseagainst]

1. MJ
2. Kobe
3. Magic
4. KAJ
5. Bird

So yes he's top 5 GOAT..

:bowdown:

[KevinNYC]

When Red made those comments it seemed to me at least he was caught up in the moment with Bird who was dominating at the time as a current player. In his later books he went back to his usual position choosing Russell over every other player.

yeah, wasn't it at a night honoring Larry Bird and also before Bird's career was over. I always thought there was an immediacy effect going on. Like you see a movie and place it in your top ten, but then five years later, you never think about it.

[KevinNYC]

I'm not entirely sure where you're getting this. While defense is probably the weak point of both players (though, Bird's incredible hands and coordination made him a serious team defensive threat), I would challenge you to cite cases where "the best defenders" have shut down Larry or Magic. These are two players that are considered to have been unguardable because they could dominate without scoring, and without dominating the ball. There are many ways to destroy your defender, scoring on him being just one. In any case, they were more than capable of destroying their defenders by scoring on them (Bird especially, but Magic was an incredible scoring threat, as well, especially when he took over as the primary scoring option for the Lakers in the late 80s).

I would recommend this series of YouTube videos, which detail Bird's work and effectiveness against the best defenders of his era (which came in all shapes and sizes), including Michael Cooper (first DPOY ever, iirc), Rodman (2x DPOY), Jordan (1x DPOY), and Pippen (no explanation required).

Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIKH2fb_PxA

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7TxC_k9Bv0&feature=relmfu

Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mn8qTjVED5w&feature=relmfu


Disclosure time: I wasn't around to have watched either play, and I've followed ISH long enough to know that this disqualifies me from being able to say a lot of this stuff, but as a fan of the game and of its history, I'm just calling it like I see it. Also, that was my very first post on here! So, cheers! :cheers: :banana:

You could also post highlights when those defenders were giving him fits. Bird shot poorly in the 1981 series because Robert Reid (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-06-03/sports/8602090260_1_robert-reid-rockets-head-houston-coach-bill-fitch)was one of those guys who gave him trouble and he defended his shooting well. Reid at 6'8 was tall enough (http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/07/robert-reid-other-33.html)and, more importantly, quick enough to guard Bird both inside and outside. (Bird went crazy on the boards though had 15 rp along with 7apg.) He also was a smart defender and used to study Bird. Michael Cooper did the same thing, he would take tapes of Bird with him on vacation and study him.

You needed to be a very smart defender to bother Bird, because he had an arsenal of fakes and moves and he only needed an inch or two get his shot off. James Worthy who is obviously a lot quicker than Bird said Bird used to exhaust him mentally, because you had to concentrate and focus all the time or else Bird would get his.

The prime of the 1980 Celtics started in 1984 and ended when Bird popped both his Achilles tendons in 1989. In the five seasons between 84-and 89 the Celtics won 2 titles and lost three times. Twice to the Lakers and once to the Pistions, both teams that had not good, but the best defensive small forwards in Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman (off the bench) in the league, that's probably not a coincidence. There were also guys who their teams didn't rely on offensively, so they could conserve energy.

Every one knows about Cooper's defense, but the last two games of 1988 Eastern Conference Finals was Rodman's coming out party. (http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/search/label/1987-88%20boston%20celtics)


Game 5
There were but 10 seconds left in regulation, Celtics ready to inbound the ball, and everyone knew the play would be to Larry Bird. Score tied, 92-92, ball to Bird. It was running steadily through Dennis Rodman's mind. "Stay on him," said Pistons forward Rodman, describing what it would take to keep Bird from making this another one of those Celtic victories. "Body him up. Don't let him get that turnaround. Try to make him take a shot that he doesn't ordinarily take.

"And in a sense, he did take it, in the last second." Bird took the shot, a twisting, low-percentage 25- to 30-footer from the right side, and when it didn't land, the Celtics were on their way to the brink of playoff elimination. Rodman, the man who at this time last year was defending his words about Bird being considered a top player because he is white, last night was the leading Detroit defender against the Celtics star and helped spark the Pistons' 102-96 overtime victory for a 3-2 lead in the best-of-seven Eastern Conference finals.

Rodman was the man in Bird's face virtually all evening, fronting him when it counted, pestering him in crucial moments, helping to contain him to 12 points after the first half -- and only 2 in the five-minute overtime. "Rodman was the key to the game," said Detroit captain Isiah Thomas. "He came in and gave us that extra lift."....

Try to body him up," said Rodman, again reviewing the defensive strategy against Bird. "Hey, in the first half he was on fire -- no one was going to stop him. But if you can be aggressive on the boards, then he has to work harder to make his baskets. That's what you try to do. "That one at the end of regulation, I think he wishes he didn't take that shot. It didn't work. And I think maybe he's struggling a little bit. Come Friday, hopefully he's still struggling.

.....

Game 6
Bird seemed smothered by the Pistons' Dennis Rodman. The butterfly jumper simply would not work. WOULD NOT WORK. He was 4 for 17 in the game, 23 percent. Struggling. Even on his drives, the ball would go around the rim, spinning hard, spinning out. He looked as if he were trying to change the game by his force of will. The will could not work. Not this time.


If you go read the articles at the links, they talk about how incredibly physical that 1988 ECF was. One reporter described it as Slam Dancing. The Pistons had an incredibly deep team, that helped them stay fresh through that war. Ainge said the Pistons held the Celtics to 10% lower on field goals than they normally shot.

[Djahjaga]

You could also post highlights when those defenders were giving him fits. Bird shot poorly in the 1981 series because Robert Reid (http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-06-03/sports/8602090260_1_robert-reid-rockets-head-houston-coach-bill-fitch)was one of those guys who gave him trouble and he defended his shooting well. Reid at 6'8 was tall enough (http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/2008/07/robert-reid-other-33.html)and, more importantly, quick enough to guard Bird both inside and outside. (Bird went crazy on the boards though had 15 rp along with 7apg.) He also was a smart defender and used to study Bird. Michael Cooper did the same thing, he would take tapes of Bird with him on vacation and study him.

You needed to be a very smart defender to bother Bird, because he had an arsenal of fakes and moves and he only needed an inch or two get his shot off. James Worthy who is obviously a lot quicker than Bird said Bird used to exhaust him mentally, because you had to concentrate and focus all the time or else Bird would get his.

The prime of the 1980 Celtics started in 1984 and ended when Bird popped both his Achilles tendons in 1989. In the five seasons between 84-and 89 the Celtics won 2 titles and lost three times. Twice to the Lakers and once to the Pistions, both teams that had not good, but the best defensive small forwards in Michael Cooper and Dennis Rodman (off the bench) in the league, that's probably not a coincidence.

Every one knows about Cooper's defense, but the last two games of 1988 Eastern Conference Finals was Rodman's coming out party. (http://lexnihilnovi.blogspot.com/search/label/1987-88%20boston%20celtics)

Great post. One of the things I didn't like in the videos I posted was that Rodman, probably the most versatile defender in them, was just starting his career. You can't realistically expect any rookie to shut down or even contain someone like Bird.

In any case, Rodman did a terrific job on Larry in '88, but we never got to see Larry come back at him the next year, with renewed intensity, because he got injured. Afterwards, Larry was, to borrow a phrase from Barkley, "pretty much washed up" (though still capable of dominating games, and still a top 20 player in the league).

As far as the defense Reid played on Bird goes, my original point was that Larry was versatile enough that he could dominate his defender even when his shot wasn't falling. In this case, he destroyed his defender on the boards and with the pass. And it could be argued that an older, prime Bird could would have fared better against a defender like Reid.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any defender who continuously contained Bird and significantly reduced his effectiveness when he was in his prime (we'll call that 1983-1988).

What I think the takeaway here is that, while everyone in the top 5 had types of players that gave them fits, they were able to contribute in other ways. That's why I think the original poster that I quoted (in my first post) was mistaken. The best defenders didn't contain Larry or Magic any better than the best defenders contained Jordan (96 Finals against Payton comes to mind) or Kobe (Battier's defense on him is underrated).

[KevinNYC]

I don't know if I agree with OP, but he certainly is a top five in my list. He had one of the most complete offensive games (could pass, could shoot, could run the floor pretty well, had a great IQ, the list goes on) of all time for sure. However, no matter what Round Mound or anyone says, he was by no means a defensive master. His defense was his greatest weakness without a doubt. If he could've guarded Worthy a bit better, maybe he has an extra ring. I still have him at five though because he was still a mastermind on the offense, and did the most with the least athleticism so to speak (he couldn't run or jump, but he'd still give you 20/10 and a fair bit of assists).

Round Mound has a point. Regardless of what you read on ISH, Bird before his first back injury in 1985 was not a liability on defense, he was not an average defender, he was someone who made an impact on defense, particularly within the Celtics scheme.

There was a thread last year with folks claiming he was a straight up stiff. (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=230228). So I went back and looked at some old playoff games and watched all his defensive plays for a few games. Unfortunately, most of these games have been removed from youtube, so you can't see the clips I referenced, but here's what I saw.


All I did was go through a couple of full games and look at defensive possessions and you could see he had an impact defensively. These are from the ECF and the Finals, so all these clips are from the highest stage of the game. You can go through the games and see guys score on him, but I found very few clips where he's out of position, gambling or making a bad play maybe 3 clips.

Here's what I didn't find. Any examples where the other team disrespected him. Playoff games are all about matchups and probing the other team's weaknesses and I didn't find the other team trying to exploit him defensively, I didn't see players get excited if he switched on them. I did see two clips with Kareem on Bird one-on-one in the post and Dr. J one-on-on with Bird in the post and both times they passed. In his day he was routinely discussed as the best All-around player ever. If was as bad defensively as folks now say, he never would have had that rep.

And here's my general sense of Bird's defense
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6190762&postcount=15
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6190599&postcount=13



He was so bad at defense, at 6' 9" he averaged 1.7 steals a game for his career and if you look at the first 9 years before he tore both his achilles tendons, he had almost 1300 steals and 7300 rebounds. How unique is that? He is the only player in the league during that time to do it. The next closest guy had about 500 less steals.

The only other players who have had a 9 year streak with over 1200 steals and 7000 rebounds since are Hakeem and Shawn Marion.


Here's a quote I found from Hubie Brown (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6193760&postcount=36)

here is a quote from a guy who understand basketball much, much better than I do and got to witness Larry Bird from much closer than I ever did.

I was reading something else when I came across this. Here's what Coach Hubie Brown said after his Knicks lost game 2 of the 1984 ECSF to Boston 116 to 102. Bird went hit 16 of 22 and scored 37 points, but after the game Hubie Brown singled out his defense. (Bird had 4 steals in the game.)


"The entire Boston team played great defense, but the one man the purists noticed was Bird. He's the real key to their defense. Bird reminded us tonight of a middle line-backer the way he roamed around out there. His ability to clog the lane, double team and strip the ball were the keys to their defense."

It supports my free-safety thesis about why Bird was not only a better than average defender, but someone who made an impact on the defensive end.

[longtime lurker]

LOL at anyone leaving Russell or Wilt out of the top 5 dead or alive

[code green]

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
3. Russell

4. Magic
5. Bird


Jordan, Kareem, & Russell should be the only ones that have an argument for the GOAT. Jordan for obvious reasons, Russell because he has 11 rings and is the greatest defensive player in history and Kareem because he was the most dominant|consistent center we have ever seen, 6 NBA MVPs, 6 time NBA champion.

At their absolute best Bird was better than Magic, but Magic does have more career accomplishments and a longevity edge over Bird which is the reason I have him ahead.

I just can't put Wilt in the top 5. He cared more about himself than winning. I have him at #6.

I've got the same 5 for the same reasons. Part of me wants to switch Magic and Russell due to the eras in which they played (and my bias towards PGs) but it kills me as a C's fan to do it.

[SHAQisGOAT]

I got him tied with Magic at #3, after MJ and Kareem.


Taking into account talent/skill, intagibles, accolades, peak/prime, longevity and competition.

[Hands of Iron]

LOL at anyone leaving Russell or Wilt out of the top 5 dead or alive

Post-Merger NBA FTW. :bowdown: :oldlol: