lets be real, jordan has never been at Kareems level.

[The Iron Fist]

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NYC titles. Team lost only twice.
Jordan- failed to make the team one season

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NCAA titles most outstanding player, player of the year etc. Team lost only twice.
Jordan-1 title

Kareem- 6 titles, 6 mvps, 10 times in finals winning six. Played against at least 35 of basketballs greatest players ever. Bookended his career w fmvps. One coming at an age close to 40.

Jordan, Nike, hanes, etc helped propel him to a worldwide face.



Kareem>>>jordan

[riseagainst]

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NYC titles. Team lost only twice.
Jordan- failed to make the team one season

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NCAA titles most outstanding player, player of the year etc.
Jordan-1 title

Kareem- 6 titles, 6 mvps, 10 times in finals winning six. Played against at least 35 of basketballs greatest players ever. Bookended his career w fmvps. One coming at an age close to 40.

Jordan, Nike, hanes, etc helped propel him to a worldwide face.



Kareem>>>jordan


:lol
Kareem has a legitimate chance to be the GOAT. MJ's not the undisputed GOAT. But saying Kareem >>> Jordan is ludicrous. It's more like Kareem ~ Jordan.

[The Iron Fist]

:lol
Kareem has a legitimate chance to be the GOAT. MJ's not the undisputed GOAT.
Kareem IS the goat.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Certainly arguable, unlike Kobe/MJ.

[Smoke117]

My number 1 GOAT always switches between Kareem and Jordan. Either way Michael certainly isn't untouchable.

[KingBeasley08]

6 Rings, 2 FMVPS. I give Kobe shit for it so I gotta do the same for Kareem

[scandisk_]

Kareem IS the goat.

You had it the other way around, MJ > Kareem :pimp:

Kareem can sit comfortably on the 2nd spot though :bowdown:

[riseagainst]

Certainly arguable, unlike Lebron/MJ.

fixed

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

fixed

This as well. :cheers:

[NumberSix]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wvo_Saiwsgw/0.jpg

[scandisk_]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wvo_Saiwsgw/0.jpg

But it never went it :confusedshrug:

[The Iron Fist]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/wvo_Saiwsgw/0.jpg
Does someone have to post about how much a young Kobe dropped on an old jordan?


Kareem from beginning to end was always better with more impact.

[scandisk_]

Does someone have to post about how much a young Kobe dropped on an old jordan?


Kareem from beginning to end was always better with more impact.



ohhh please :lol

[LJJ]

Achievements in NCAA or High School don't matter in the grand scheme of things. At all.

[JellyBean]

Kareem IS the goat.

Amen. But I have no poblem with Jordan being the GOAT.

[RIP CITY]

Let's be real, 90% of people who don't think Jordan is the GOAT.. are Lakers fans. Lakers fans can't stand it when something that isn't involved with the Lakers is considered the best (Best franchise, best single season team, best player, best anything).

That said, Kareem has a case for GOAT, even more so when you add in High School and College, though that doesn't count. Jordan is the undisputed GOAT in my book but that doesn't mean there weren't players that were definitely close, Kareem being one of those players.

[Sarcastic]

With this criteria, Bill Russell is GOAT.

[FreezingTsmoove]

This ***** MJ was basically 6'0 and couldn't even make his varsity team until he was a junior :lol

[Chalkmaze]

Jordan- failed to make the team one season



Failed to make the Varsity basketball team as a sophomore!! Big ****ing Deal!? And Michael always maintained that the coach made a huge mistake, and he was right. The coach was an idiot. I mean seriously, if someone came up to you and said, "I cut Michael Jordan from the varsity basketball team", you'd tell him he must have rocks in his head.

[tikay0]

Reason why Kareem can never and should not be considered GOAT. Not 1 year has his playoff numbers been equal to or greater than his regular season numbers. Micheal Jordan's playoffs stats take a dump on Kareem's. Also, Jordan's numbers have always increased in the playoffs.

Edit: Except for the 69'-70' season.

[Ne 1]

6 Rings, 2 FMVPS. I give Kobe shit for it so I gotta do the same for Kareem


Finals MVP is a pretty useless award. Also It didn't exist until 1969, had it Bill Russell would have more than anyone.

Ironic that FMVP's is used as primary supporting evidence of an argument against Kareem. Kareem was flat out robbed of the 1980's FMVP in favor of a popular, charismatic teammate and we are to act as if the award is legit? Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Cedric Maxell, Joe Dumars, and Chauncey Billups all have FMVP's. Even John freaking Starks came within one shot of winning a FMVP.


With this criteria, Bill Russell is GOAT.

If you value winning Bill Russell is GOAT. If you value peak play Kareem or Wilt is the GOAT. If you value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT.

[97 bulls]

Its just rediculous when people try to include high school accomplishments in their debates. High school? Come on.

But iif were gonna include college accomplishments then you must include Olympic medals too. Jordan has Jabaar beat 2-0.

And let not act as if Jabaar came in a change the UCLA program. He joined a team that had already won two straight championships if i remember correct. Whats so impressiive about that? He seems like a front ruunner just liike Magic. Isnt Jabaar from New York? How many colleges did he pass up to bandwagon UCLA? I mean damn the school was literally on the other side of the country.

[KingBeasley08]

Finals MVP is a pretty useless award. Also It didn't exist until 1969, had it Bill Russell would have more than anyone.

Ironic that FMVP's is used as primary supporting evidence of an argument against Kareem. Kareem was flat out robbed of the 1980's FMVP in favor of a popular, charismatic teammate and we are to act as if the award is legit? Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Cedric Maxell, Joe Dumars, and Chauncey Billups all have FMVP's. Even John freaking Starks came within one shot of winning a FMVP.

Anyway if you value winning Bill Russell is GOAT. If you value peak play Kareem or Wilt is the GOAT. If you value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT.
Gotta take the combo of all. Winning, peak, and consistency. :oldlol: @ kareem being best peak play. Finals MVP is a pretty solid award. Tells you who the best player on a team is most of the time. Kareem was probably robbed in 80 but thats still only 3 out of 6 times he won as the second best player.

[tikay0]

Reason why Kareem can never and should not be considered GOAT. Not 1 year has his playoff numbers been equal to or greater than his regular season numbers. Micheal Jordan's playoffs stats take a dump on Kareem's. Also, Jordan's numbers have always increased in the playoffs.

Edit: Except for the 69'-70' season.

[97 bulls]

Finals MVP is a pretty useless award. Also It didn't exist until 1969, had it Bill Russell would have more than anyone.

Ironic that FMVP's is used as primary supporting evidence of an argument against Kareem. Kareem was flat out robbed of the 1980's FMVP in favor of a popular, charismatic teammate and we are to act as if the award is legit? Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Cedric Maxell, Joe Dumars, and Chauncey Billups all have FMVP's. Even John freaking Starks came within one shot of winning a FMVP.



If you value winning Bill Russell is GOAT. If you value peak play Kareem or Wilt is the GOAT. If you value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT.
Jordans the goat because hes in the argument for everything

[Optimus Prime]

What's with all the trolling about Jordan lately. He's the GOAT ... DEAL WITH IT. :facepalm

:kobe:

[eurobum]

if he wasn't even the best player on his own team on 66 % of his champipnships how is he the goat?

[Ne 1]

Jordans the goat because hes in the argument for everything

Jordan is arguably the GOAT. It's not an irrefutable fact though as some like to believe.

[tikay0]

if he wasn't even the best player on his own team on 66 % of his champipnships how is he the goat?

:applause: exactly.

[tikay0]

Jordan is arguably the GOAT. It's not an irrefutable fact though as some like to believe.

When theirs certain criteria to being the GOAT, and Jordan literally fits everyone to the tee, then yes, he is in fact the GOAT.

[tikay0]

Reason why Kareem can never and should not be considered GOAT. Not 1 year has his playoff numbers been equal to or greater than his regular season numbers. Micheal Jordan's playoffs stats take a dump on Kareem's. Also, Jordan's numbers have always increased in the playoffs.

Edit: Except for the 69'-70' season.

[97 bulls]

Failed to make the Varsity basketball team as a sophomore!! Big ****ing Deal!? And Michael always maintained that the coach made a huge mistake, and he was right. The coach was an idiot. I mean seriously, if someone came up to you and said, "I cut Michael Jordan from the varsity basketball team", you'd tell him he must have rocks in his head.
Lol have you seen the moron that cut Jordan? He looks liike a deufus

[97 bulls]

Gotta take the combo of all. Winning, peak, and consistency. :oldlol: @ kareem being best peak play. Finals MVP is a pretty solid award. Tells you who the best player on a team is most of the time. Kareem was probably robbed in 80 but thats still only 3 out of 6 times he won as the second best player.
I would say he was the third best player on the 87 Lakers after Magic and Worthy. And the fourth best player on the 88 team after Magic, Worthy, and Byron Scott.

[Ne 1]

Gotta take the combo of all. Winning, peak, and consistency. :oldlol: @ kareem being best peak play. Finals MVP is a pretty solid award. Tells you who the best player on a team is most of the time. Kareem was probably robbed in 80 but thats still only 3 out of 6 times he won as the second best player.

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for most of his prime, whereas Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, Kareem won 6 rings, 3 of them clearly as the best player, he remained the go-to guy until the 5th ring. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!). No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.

Seriously why do people cling to this "rings as the best player" bull sh*t Even so Kareem was the best player for his first three and probably the fourth. Even for his fifth he averaged 22/7 as part of a balanced three-headed Magic/Kareem/Worthy attack. Only during his final championship year could he fairly be described as a "role player" and even then his presences alone was still huge along with his production being solid similar to Duncan on the Spurs in recent years.

[tikay0]

The key when people look at Kareem's 6 rings and Jordan's 6 rings is that Kareem didn't even have a great team around him for most of his prime, whereas Jordan did. Still it doesn't matter, Kareem won 6 rings, 3 of them clearly as the best player, he remained the go-to guy until the 5th ring. Statistically more dominant than Jordan. More valuable to his teams than Jordan (seriously 15-20 wins to 50+ wins? That's insane!). No one is matching Kareem's production over an entire decade either.

Seriously why do people cling to this "rings as the best player" bull sh*t Even so Kareem was the best player for his first three and probably the fourth. Even for his fifth he averaged 22/7 as part of a balanced three-headed Magic/Kareem/Worthy attack. Only during his final championship year could he fairly be described as a "role player" and even then his presences alone was still huge along with his production being solid similar to Duncan on the Spurs in recent years.


Jordan had to consistently get past arguably the best defensive team of all time in the Knicks. Can someone please look up the teams Kareem had to go through when he was the man on his team, compared to what teams Jordan had to go through, Im way too lazy.

[guy]

Finals MVP is a pretty useless award. Also It didn't exist until 1969, had it Bill Russell would have more than anyone.

Ironic that FMVP's is used as primary supporting evidence of an argument against Kareem. Kareem was flat out robbed of the 1980's FMVP in favor of a popular, charismatic teammate and we are to act as if the award is legit? Paul Pierce, Tony Parker, Cedric Maxell, Joe Dumars, and Chauncey Billups all have FMVP's. Even John freaking Starks came within one shot of winning a FMVP.



If you value winning Bill Russell is GOAT. If you value peak play Kareem or Wilt is the GOAT. If you value both equally, Kareem is still arguably GOAT.

:oldlol: only a Kobe fan would say its useless. Whatever, forget the actual award. Compare the production and just overall play and its clear as day that Jordan contributed significantly more to his 6 titles then Kareem did for his. Only for 2 of Kareem's titles did he really compare.

[Linspired]

:roll:

please stop. kareem never was MJ's peak level at any point of his career.

[Asukal]

Jordan is the consensus GOAT, not indisputable but he has the strongest case.

LOL at Kareem's 6 titles being greater, he won FMVP twice only and had another top 5 GOAT on his team for 5 of his titles. :hammerhead:

If we base GOAT on winning, then Russell is the GOAT. :oldlol:

[DatAsh]

Kareem probably shouldn't even be ranked as high as Magic. Hell there were two centers that were clearly better than him that played not even 15 years before him.

Russell, Jordan should be top 2

Wilt, Magic

then Kareem

[The Iron Fist]

Achievements in NCAA or High School don't matter in the grand scheme of things. At all.
Yet , they both matter when recruiting! Plus, March Madness is a huge money maker.


They matter, considering the title is greatest of ALL TIME.

[guy]

If people want to take his HS and college career into account, then Kareem probably is the GOAT. But if we do that, we also have to rank guys like Christian Laettner and Danny Manning very high. We should also downgrade players like Kobe and KG who never even went to college and didn't really accomplish anything significant in their first few years in the NBA. No one takes HS and college that seriously because everyone knows thats a preparation for the basketball player they will be as they mature, which is at the professional level.

[DatAsh]

Yet , they both matter when recruiting! Plus, March Madness is a huge money maker.


They matter, considering the title is greatest of ALL TIME.


They do matter, but not as much as junior high/elementary. Jordan was the goat elementary player and therefore the goat player.

[AK47DR91]

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NYC titles. Team lost only twice.
Jordan- failed to make the team one season

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NCAA titles most outstanding player, player of the year etc. Team lost only twice.
Jordan-1 title

Kareem- 6 titles, 6 mvps, 10 times in finals winning six. Played against at least 35 of basketballs greatest players ever. Bookended his career w fmvps. One coming at an age close to 40.

Jordan, Nike, hanes, etc helped propel him to a worldwide face.

Kareem>>>jordan
5 of Kareem's 6 titles was with the Lakers when he played with a Top 5 All-Time Great in Magic and a Top 50 in Worthy. When Kareem won 5 MVPs in the 70's, he could only win 1 ring.

Jordan won 4 MVP in his 6 championship seasons. Yeah, he only won with Pippen but Pippen is only a Top 50 according to that 1999 Top 50 special. Pip is nowhere near Magic's level.

[The Iron Fist]

Its just rediculous when people try to include high school accomplishments in their debates. High school? Come on.

But iif were gonna include college accomplishments then you must include Olympic medals too. Jordan has Jabaar beat 2-0.

And let not act as if Jabaar came in a change the UCLA program. He joined a team that had already won two straight championships if i remember correct. Whats so impressiive about that? He seems like a front ruunner just liike Magic. Isnt Jabaar from New York? How many colleges did he pass up to bandwagon UCLA? I mean damn the school was literally on the other side of the country.
Regarding the Olympics, when would he have gone? Secondly, his tenure at UCLA is a big deal considering that when he was a freshman, he wasnt allowed on the varsity team due to rules. So what happens? There is a game between the number one ranked varsity team and the freshman squad. Frosh team won making the number one varsity team in the nation, number two on campus. To add, when he did join the varsity, they went 88-2. And he wasnt even allowed to dunk.

[Smoke117]

If people want to take his HS and college career into account, then Kareem probably is the GOAT. But if we do that, we also have to rank guys like Christian Laettner and Danny Manning very high. We should also downgrade players like Kobe and KG who never even went to college and didn't really accomplish anything significant in their first few years in the NBA. No one
takes HS and college that seriously because everyone knows thats a preparation for the basketball player they will be as they mature, which is at the professional level.

Yeah...that makes sense in exactly no logical way. Danny Manning nor Christian Laettner had an epic hof all time excellent career as a pro to go with their college accomplishments. Not that I think all this crap about hs and college much matters. What Kareem did in the NBA alone is enough to possibly make him the GOAT either way.

[Odinn]

6 Rings, 2 FMVPS. I give Kobe shit for it so I gotta do the same for Kareem
And care to explain 5 MVPs difference?

[guy]

Yeah...that makes sense in exactly no logical way. Danny Manning nor Christian Laettner had an epic hof all time excellent career as a pro to go with their college accomplishments. Not that I think all this crap about hs and college much matters. What Kareem did in the NBA alone is enough to possibly make him the GOAT either way.

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. College and HS shouldn't really be taken into account cause players are hardly ever going up against the absolute best competition on a night-in, night-out basis. Which is why players like Laettner and Manning didn't pan out as well in the NBA. For the most part, all NBA players (and even some that don't make it) are dominating at a high level in college and HS, so once they get to the NBA the separation from the best of the best occurs. Not to mention taking into account the schedule and conference/state they play in.

[Odinn]

Reason why Kareem can never and should not be considered GOAT. Not 1 year has his playoff numbers been equal to or greater than his regular season numbers. Micheal Jordan's playoffs stats take a dump on Kareem's. Also, Jordan's numbers have always increased in the playoffs.

Edit: Except for the 69'-70' season.


If 1985-86 season would be Kareem's last season;

His career numbers;
35108 points (all-time scoring leader until 2002-12-18)
16105 rebounds
5248 asissts
1025 steals
2915 blocks
2087 turnovers

26.4 ppg
12.1 rpg
4.0 apg
1.0 spg
2.9 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.562 fg%
0.720 ft%


His playoff numbers;
4912 points
2168 rebounds
676 asissts
161 steals
393 blocks
339 turnovers

27.3 ppg
12.0 rpg
3.8 apg
1.2 spg
2.8 bpg
3.0 tpg

0.541 fg%
0.732 ft%


His accomplishments;
6x MVP (6.203 total MVP share, only 2 times left out top5)
2x FMVP
4x NBA Champion (in 1971 and 1980, clear-cut best player on a championship team and "arguably" best player in 1982 and 1985)
16x All-Star
10x All-NBA First Team
5x All-NBA Second Team
5x All-NBA Defensive First Team
6x All-NBA Defensive Second Team
NBA Rookie of The Year
3x NCAA Champion
3x NCAA MOP
Naismith College Player of the Year



In conclusion; his last 3 years only lowered his career averages. He still would have a legitimate case for GOAT if he was retired after 1985-86 season.
27/12/3/3 vs. 33/6/6/2

Kareem won FMVP in 1985 at his 38 and he deserved it.

In 1998 playoffs, Jordan was at his 34 and at his 14th season. At the end of Kareem's 14th season, his playoff averages 29/14/4/3. Pretty comparable to Jordan's number. Even better.

[Smoke117]

6 Rings, 2 FMVPS. I give Kobe shit for it so I gotta do the same for Kareem



And care to explain 5 MVPs difference?

I'd love to see you try to explain this to.

[The Iron Fist]

I don't see how it doesn't make sense. College and HS shouldn't really be taken into account cause players are hardly ever going up against the absolute best competition on a night-in, night-out basis. Which is why players like Laettner and Manning didn't pan out as well in the NBA. For the most part, all NBA players (and even some that don't make it) are dominating at a high level in college and HS, so once they get to the NBA the separation from the best of the best occurs.
And kareem dominated at all levels, not just one.

[StateOfMind12]

This is exactly how and why Kareem can be overrated.

If you just look at his accomplishments and don't take any of his accomplishments into context at all, you would think he is the greatest player to ever play the game because he easily has the most and best accomplishments of any NBA player that has ever played.

Once you start taking those accomplishments into context such as the rings then you would start to realize that Kareem isn't the GOAT or at least not easily the GOAT.

Does Kareem have an argument? Clearly, but not for some of the reasons in this thread.

[KingBeasley08]

And care to explain 5 MVPs difference?
Um, what does that have to do with anything? Never said Kobe was better than Kareem. My point was that I knock Kobe for not being the best on his team in big moments so I have to do the same for Kareem. Again, I don't understand your question. Explain 5 MVP difference.. he's better than Kobe :confusedshrug:

[Kobe 4 The Win]

There's a lot of folks out there that believe that an elite perimiter player could not have the same level of impact as an elite big man. If that's the case, I think it would be hard not to pick Kareem over Jordan as the GOAT. Kareem's resume is really hard to match especially when you factor in the NCAA success that he had at UCLA.

It's a shame that not everyone was able to witness him at his best. The 40 year old Kareem was a good player. Young Kareem was an unstoppable basketball god.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Let's be real, 90% of people who don't think Jordan is the GOAT.. are Lakers fans. Lakers fans can't stand it when something that isn't involved with the Lakers is considered the best (Best franchise, best single season team, best player, best anything).

Exactly.

And Kareem certainly has a CASE for GOAT, but even if he is it's by a very small margin over Jordan. KAJ played with another top 5 all-time player for 5 of his titles, and Magic was at or above KAJ's level for 3 of those championships. KAJ would have a better case over Jordan if he hadn't been paired with a top 5 talent like Magic.

And people can talk longevity all they want, but 33-35 year old Jordan > 33-35 year old KAJ, and clearly.

[Cali Syndicate]

Yet , they both matter when recruiting! Plus, March Madness is a huge money maker.


They matter, considering the title is greatest of ALL TIME.

If that's the case, Bill Russell is easily the GOAT.

[Psileas]

Reason why Kareem can never and should not be considered GOAT. Not 1 year has his playoff numbers been equal to or greater than his regular season numbers. Micheal Jordan's playoffs stats take a dump on Kareem's. Also, Jordan's numbers have always increased in the playoffs.

Edit: Except for the 69'-70' season.

Eh, more like except for the 1970, 1974, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987 seasons...

[NumberSix]

There's a lot of folks out there that believe that an elite perimiter player could not have the same level of impact as an elite big man. If that's the case, I think it would be hard not to pick Kareem over Jordan as the GOAT. Kareem's resume is really hard to match especially when you factor in the NCAA success that he had at UCLA.

It's a shame that not everyone was able to witness him at his best. The 40 year old Kareem was a good player. Young Kareem was an unstoppable basketball god.
Kareem has no case whatsoever for being "greater" than MJ. If you wanna argue that he was better or more valuable, that's one thing, but greater? No chance.

[Smoke117]

Exactly.

And Kareem certainly has a CASE for GOAT, but even if he is it's by a very small margin over Jordan. KAJ played with another top 5 all-time player for 5 of his titles, and Magic was at or above KAJ's level for 3 of those championships. KAJ would have a better case over Jordan if he hadn't been paired with a top 5 talent like Magic.

And people can talk longevity all they want, but 33-35 year old Jordan > 33-35 year old KAJ, and clearly.

That argument doesn't really work at all. For one, with expansion the talent field was diminished team to team during the time the Bulls won their championships which while not their fault is still relevant. Second of all, while Scottie Pippen may not be a top 5 player of all time, he is top 30, and nobody else in the league was playing with a 2nd star as good as him.

"I know he makes me a better player. Unfortunately, it may take awhile, after we both retire, for people to realize just how good Scottie Pippen really was." - Michael Jordan

[Psileas]

And people can talk longevity all they want, but 33-35 year old Jordan > 33-35 year old KAJ, and clearly.

It depends on what you consider "33-35 y.o KAJ". Is it 1980-82 Kareem (turned 33-35 in the beginning of the postseasons) or 1981-83 Kareem? I guess you go by the second one.

[SuperPippen]

I'll just reiterate what's already been stated numerous times in this thread:

Kareem was an amazing player, certainly has an argument for the greatest ever, but most people would consider Jordan a greater player than him. I wouldn't have a problem with either player being considered the GOAT.


Also, OP's opinion isn't exactly unbiased.

[ILLsmak]

Achievements in NCAA or High School don't matter in the grand scheme of things. At all.

supa disagree with this.

How can you say something like that? ARE YOU DISCREDITING MY YOUTH????

Nah, but seriously, it depends what they were. Dropping 80 on some scrubs in a high school game isn't noteworthy, but b2b2b titles only losing 1 game in d1 bball?

-Smak

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Kareem has no case whatsoever for being "greater" than MJ. If you wanna argue that he was better or more valuable, that's one thing, but greater? No chance.

No case whatsoever? No chance?

:biggums:

[ILLsmak]

No case whatsoever? No chance?

:biggums:

he wasn't greater just better and more valuable. lol....

-Smak

[ihoopallday]

Why are there so many versus threads these days? It's starting to get annoying.

[riseagainst]

Why are there so many versus threads these days? It's starting to get annoying.

because silkke the lebronyte starts bad threads.

[LJJ]

supa disagree with this.

How can you say something like that? ARE YOU DISCREDITING MY YOUTH????

Nah, but seriously, it depends what they were. Dropping 80 on some scrubs in a high school game isn't noteworthy, but b2b2b titles only losing 1 game in d1 bball?

-Smak

It's still low level, amateur, competition no matter how you slice it. First of all it's youth competition. Any competition that has age restrictions can't truly be taken seriously. But more importantly, how many of the players Kareem went up against in college ever cracked a professional rotation? 1% of the players he went up against? Less than that? It's simply insignificant competition.

A guy like Manu Ginobili did bad things against much better competition at the same age. But nobody would ever take you seriously if you say his Italian league MVP stacks up to, say, a NBA MVP award. (and rightly so). Yet Americans like bring in NCAA achievements to debates like this despite NCAA being multitude times worse than the Italian league. NCAA is terrible level of play in the grand scheme. No achievement in the NCAA compares to any achievement at all in the NBA.

[BabyBull]

Kareem has no case whatsoever for being "greater" than MJ. If you wanna argue that he was better or more valuable, that's one thing, but greater? No chance.
I think what you're trying to say is that Kareem has no chance of being more popular or as polarizing as MJ.:confusedshrug:

Otherwise you made no sense. More value and better than = Greater.

[TheMan]

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NYC titles. Team lost only twice.
Jordan- failed to make the team one season

Lew Alcindor-3 straight NCAA titles most outstanding player, player of the year etc. Team lost only twice.
Jordan-1 title

Kareem- 6 titles, 6 mvps, 10 times in finals winning six. Played against at least 35 of basketballs greatest players ever. Bookended his career w fmvps. One coming at an age close to 40.

Jordan, Nike, hanes, etc helped propel him to a worldwide face.



Kareem>>>jordan
Certainly debatable between KAJ, MJ and even Wilt if you go on stats but to say KAJ>>>MJ is laugable and tells me you are trolling for attention.

negged

[BabyBull]

Even if you strip them of all their accolades and milestones, Jordan was still a flat out better basketball player than Kareem was.

Kareem had more longevity, as a 38 year old KAJ was still a franchise caliber player. But nobody matches Jordan's prime.

[The Iron Fist]

Certainly debatable between KAJ, MJ and even Wilt if you go on stats but to say KAJ>>>MJ is laugable and tells me you are trolling for attention.

negged
The **** i need attention from net geeks like you for?

Kareem dominated at every level. Jordan didnt. Cap>>>jordan.

[Freedom Kid7]

Certainly debatable between KAJ, MJ and even Wilt if you go on stats but to say KAJ>>>MJ is laugable and tells me you are trolling for attention.

negged
Wait, how? I thought the days of negging were gone?

[Kobe 4 The Win]

he wasn't greater just better and more valuable. lol....

-Smak

Jordan was greater because he sold more sneakers and soft drinks. That is what some people consider transcending the game. lol

Jordan was great. No one can argue with what he did on the court. That he is considered head and shoulders above guys like Kareem, Wilt, Oscar, Russell, etc is because of the modern 24 hour a day media and the NBA getting a lot more savy about how they market their players. Nike's propaganda machine is hard to ignore as well.

There is no one single GOAT but not only have people been convinced that there is, they have been led to believe that there isn't even a close second. Bullshit.

[KingBeasley08]

The **** i need attention from net geeks like you for?

Kareem dominated at every level. Jordan didnt. Cap>>>jordan.
not internationally.





next

[TheMan]

The **** i need attention from net geeks like you for?

Kareem dominated at every level. Jordan didnt. Cap>>>jordan.
Jordan 2 Olympic golds vs KAJ a big fat zero...












next

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The **** i need attention for?

Because you're a fat lonely Mexican kid.

[NumberSix]

I think what you're trying to say is that Kareem has no chance of being more popular or as polarizing as MJ.:confusedshrug:

Otherwise you made no sense. More value and better than = Greater.
I usually don't get into GOAT/legacy conversations because the criteria is subjective and seems to always change.

By no means do I think Michael Jordan was the single best player ever.

But, for the people that do like to get into GOAT/legacy arguments, MJ seems to have the criteria (whatever exactly it is that it entails).

Kareem just doesn't stack up to MJ from a "legacy" standpoint.

[DirtySanchez]

:lol
Kareem has a legitimate chance to be the GOAT. MJ's not the undisputed GOAT. But saying Kareem >>> Jordan is ludicrous. It's more like Kareem ~ Jordan.


THIS

[Legends66NBA7]

Kareem and Jordan have been on the same level at some point in their prime/peak.

Jordan was more consistent overall in the regular season/playoffs, which is why he gets the nod from me and by most others as the consensus arbitrary lists. If we do consider High School/College/Pro's, then yes Kareem had the better basketball career. Jordan had the better overall pro career.

It's foolish to not think it would be close during their primes, either.


Reason why Kareem can never and should not be considered GOAT. Not 1 year has his playoff numbers been equal to or greater than his regular season numbers. Micheal Jordan's playoffs stats take a dump on Kareem's. Also, Jordan's numbers have always increased in the playoffs.

Edit: Except for the 69'-70' season.

:facepalm


Eh, more like except for the 1970, 1974, 1977, 1979, 1980, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987 seasons...

Thank you.


if he wasn't even the best player on his own team on 66 % of his champipnships how is he the goat?

6 championship teams... He was clearly the best player for 3 of them and arguably 4. Where are you getting 66% from ? Don't tell me your just looking at Finals MVP.

:facepalm


please stop. kareem never was MJ's peak level at any point of his career.

Kareem put up monster regular season and playoff numbers and dominated an era, individually. Including playoff runs where he averaged 35+ppg on high efficiency, high rebounding, assits, and great defense.

:oldlol: @ Kareem never being @ MJ's peak level at any point of his career.


LOL at Kareem's 6 titles being greater, he won FMVP twice only and had another top 5 GOAT on his team for 5 of his titles.

So Magic was already Top 5 GOAT when they won titles in 80 and 82, and even 85 ?

:facepalm


Kareem probably shouldn't even be ranked as high as Magic. Hell there were two centers that were clearly better than him that played not even 15 years before him.

Russell, Jordan should be top 2

Wilt, Magic

then Kareem

I disagree with Magic over Kareem.

You can say Wilt and Russell over Kareem (but you can't say clearly better), but I don't see the case of Magic over Kareem.


KAJ played with another top 5 all-time player for 5 of his titles, and Magic was at or above KAJ's level for 3 of those championships. KAJ would have a better case over Jordan if he hadn't been paired with a top 5 talent like Magic.

And people can talk longevity all they want, but 33-35 year old Jordan > 33-35 year old KAJ, and clearly.

Like I mentioned above, while Magic did show up in those post seasons, he wasn't already Top 5 GOAT from 80, 82, and I doubt there was consensus of people considering Magic Top 5 GOAT by 85 either... or were they ?

As for the age comparison, where's Jordan's Wizards years ? That's part of Jordan's longevity too. Plus, they had different roles and different systems on those teams.


Kareem has no case whatsoever for being "greater" than MJ. If you wanna argue that he was better or more valuable, that's one thing, but greater? No chance.

:oldlol: @ no case and no chance.


So we've basically got two sides of spectrum. One side that will biasedly try to prop Kareem up and the other side who thinks Kareem doesn't have a case at all.

[OldSchoolBBall]

That argument doesn't really work at all. For one, with expansion the talent field was diminished team to team during the time the Bulls won their championships which while not their fault is still relevant.

KAJ played his prime during perhaps THE weakest era in league history (mid-late 70's), so his dominance during that time ('73-'80) needs to be taken down a notch as well if you're gonna play that card. It's a bullshit card to play, btw, but you're the one playing it.


Second of all, while Scottie Pippen may not be a top 5 player of all time, he is top 30, and nobody else in the league was playing with a 2nd star as good as him.


The Bulls' talent level wasn't what the Lakers' talent level was, even when adjusting for the competition. Period. You put 28-35 year old Jordan with 22-29 year old Shaq (another all-time player) and they don't run the table in the 80's with the other parts LA had around KAJ and Magic (Worthy, Cooper, Rambis, Green, Scott, Thompson, McAdoo etc.), especially in that soft as cheese Western Conference with no rivals? Yeah...ok. :oldlol:

[nightprowler10]

Its not out of the question. To me, MJ is the GOAT. But you'll never see me argue with someone who thinks KAJ is the GOAT. MJ is the undisputed #1 in my book, and Russell is the undisputed #2, but it makes sense if this isn't the case for someone else.

Others who make up my top 6 are KAJ, Magic, Bird, and Wilt, in no particular order.

[raptorfan_dr07]

I think it's stupid to include high school and college achievements as arguments. It's pretty much universally acknowledged that when talking about the "greatest of all time" you're talking about professional careers.

Kareem's NBA accomplishments are more than enough to give him legit consideration for GOAT. Personally, I don't have a choice for GOAT. I don't think you can go wrong with any of: Kareem, Jordan, Russell. You probably could make solid arguments for: Wilt, Magic, Bird as well. I certainly would listen to them.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

I think that there are a lot of people out there that feel the NCAA is very important and worthy of being considered. Especially when you are talking about the kind of domination that Kareem and UCLA enjoyed year after year.

[Hotlantadude81]

Here is the season by season win shares winners:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ws_yearly.html

Are MJ, Kareem, Wilt and Lebron the best players in NBA history?

Could be.

[tikay0]

27/12/3/3 vs. 33/6/6/2

Kareem won FMVP in 1985 at his 38 and he deserved it.

In 1998 playoffs, Jordan was at his 34 and at his 14th season. At the end of Kareem's 14th season, his playoff averages 29/14/4/3. Pretty comparable to Jordan's number. Even better.

All you did was post his total career numbers. :facepalm Why dont you post em head to head relative to MJ's years, and also post his regular season stats compared to post season stats. You'd come away shocked at how much better MJ's numbers are then Kareem's.

[guy]

I think that there are a lot of people out there that feel the NCAA is very important and worthy of being considered. Especially when you are talking about the kind of domination that Kareem and UCLA enjoyed year after year.

Funny, cause I only ever hear it brought up in this specific comparison.

[DStebb716]

**** this Michael Jordan didn't make the team one year. It's already been revealed that he made that up. The school had a rule that only 11th and 12th graders could play. He was a 10th grader.

[dunksby]

not internationally.
next

Jordan 2 Olympic golds vs KAJ a big fat zero...
next

1968 Mexico Summer Olympics: Black Power Salute

The months preceding the 1968 Summer Olympics in Mexico were wrought with political turmoil. South Africa, which was banned in 1964 for its apartheid policies, was readmitted and then rebanned. Forty-nine people died during student riots in Mexico City, and in the United States, black activists in the civil rights movement proposed an Olympic boycott. While stars such as Lew Alcindor (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) joined the boycott and stayed home, other American athletes, such as Tommie Smith and John Carlos, who came in first and third in the 1968 men’s 200-meter race, created a greater controversy on the podium (Toohey 2007).
Kareem besides being the better basketball player is also a better human being who contributes to the society in a meaningful way and is a man who has always taken a stance for what he has believed in. Maybe you should educate yourself before spewing bullshit.

[KingBeasley08]

Kareem besides being the better basketball player is also a better human being who contributes to the society in a meaningful way and is a man who has always taken a stance for what he has believed in. Maybe you should educate yourself before spewing bullshit.
Good for him being a good human being. No seriously. I :applause: him for it. But in discussions like these, no one gives a flying f*ck. As for the Olympics, I don't think that really matters as NBA players couldn't even play prior to 92. I was showing the idiotic OP that international accolades are about as useless as stupid high school/NCAA ones.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

Jordan was always carefull not to get involved in racial issues or other controvercial isues because it was bad for his wallet. Kareem spoke out and paid a price for it. For that reason alone you could say that Kareem is greater than Jordan.

[RRR3]

Jordan was always carefull not to get involved in racial issues or other controvercial isues because it was bad for his wallet. Kareem spoke out and paid a price for it. For that reason alone you could say that Kareem is greater than Jordan.
As a person yeah maybe but not as a player. You don't rank players on how good of a person you think they are

[dunksby]

Good for him being a good human being. No seriously. I :applause: him for it. But in discussions like these, no one gives a flying f*ck. As for the Olympics, I don't think that really matters as NBA players couldn't even play prior to 92. I was showing the idiotic OP that international accolades are about as useless as stupid high school/NCAA ones.
OP made a stupid claim and anyone who is not stupid realizes that you making a baseless claim like OP only cheapens the discussion that is going on despite the moronic OP. As for Kareem and MJ, I have Kareem over him on my list and it's just a personal choice mostly due to Kareem's personality since they are just too close to be ranked over each other on some clear and substantial point. Like many people here I would not get into an argument with someone who has got MJ over Kareem at #1.

[Asukal]

6 championship teams... He was clearly the best player for 3 of them and arguably 4. Where are you getting 66% from ? Don't tell me your just looking at Finals MVP.

Exactly the reason why I put Kareem behind Jordan. Jordan was never 2nd fiddle to anybody on his championship runs. Of course he needed help just like everybody else.


Kareem put up monster regular season and playoff numbers and dominated an era, individually. Including playoff runs where he averaged 35+ppg on high efficiency, high rebounding, assits, and great defense.

Dominated an era(70s) yet failed to lead his team to multiple championships.


So Magic was already Top 5 GOAT when they won titles in 80 and 82, and even 85 ?

Magic is now top 5 GOAT, this alone speaks how great of a player he was. Is Pippen a top 5 GOAT now? Well?


Like I mentioned above, while Magic did show up in those post seasons, he wasn't already Top 5 GOAT from 80, 82, and I doubt there was consensus of people considering Magic Top 5 GOAT by 85 either... or were they ?

Because GOAT consideration is not halfway through a career. Regardless of the all time list at the time, we only need to see how Magic played during those runs. Magic played just as good as Kareem during those runs if not better.


So we've basically got two sides of spectrum. One side that will biasedly try to prop Kareem up and the other side who thinks Kareem doesn't have a case at all.

Kareem does have a case, I wouldn't disagree if you think he is number 1. My top 6 are Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird. Just my 5 cents.

[Ne 1]

When talking about the game of basketball as a whole, Kareem=GOAT. People can pretend as much as they want that "HS and NCAA don't matter" and ridicule themselves by comparing them to "who was the best 4 year old" or "who dominated his siblings more", but whoever doesn't live in a cave knows that both High School and NCAA have huge fanbases, which, in some states sh*t over the pros. In Indiana, for example, High School and NCAA basketball are religions. In Kareem's era, NCAA and High School news were routinely enjoying more newspaper space than the NBA, the Kareem vs Hayes matchup in 1968 was watched by like 60,000 people in the stadium and I can't remember how many millions of TV viewers, etc. So, yeah, you bet they count a little more than "kindergarten leagues" and the such.

Kareem and others boycotted the '68 Olympics for political reasons, but dominating international competition in 1968 would be a given. The second unit of the American amateur players won the Gold undefeated and Spencer Haywood made his international rivals looks like kids, yet Kareem, already considered the flat-out best amateur in the world would face problems? It makes as much sense as seriously arguing that Jordan never won the FIBA World Championship

[Ne 1]

All I have heard from MJ fans is "more rings as the man" and "more final series of the playoffs mvps".

To that you can say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the Finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in Finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the Finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he’d have one defender on his right side and another on his left, making any sort of a post move impossible. To beat this type of defensive scheme in a game 7 in the Finals, you need your teammates to step up to take the pressure off, which seems quite easy in theory, but they didn't. Oscar, who played like the second best player for most of the series, shot just 2-13 in game 7 and scored just 6 points, with turnovers as well (committed several crucial turnovers all series too).

As Oscar retired, the quality of Kareem’s cast also declined. They’d win some regular season games, but teams would yet again make his teammates beat them during the playoffs. He could put up 35/15/5/5 and a win was still anything but a guarantee. How important was Kareem to these teams? In ’75 he broke his hand in a preseason game. In the games he missed, they went 3-14, and missed the playoffs as a result. With Kareem they win 52-55 games (based on record, with him in lineup for the 65 games), and without him? They win 15-18 games. Then again he broke his hand in ’78 and the Lakers were 7-12 without him, which resulted in a lower seed. This shows us how valuable and indispensable Kareem was and also the type of supporting casts he was working with (certainly not the type to win 55 games and contend without him!).

Unlike, Jordan, Kareem played in 70s, which was an era in which you had 8 different champions in 10 years. The competition and parity was insane. A team that had a shot at winning it all, could easily lose in the first round. The journey to the championship was just much harder, especially with the casts that Kareem had for the latter half of the 70s. Then you have the 80s (Kareem not in his prime but still best player on the team for the early 80s and was 1a/1b in the mid 80s), during which the competition level was remarkable yet again, probably the highest ever. You had two teams (Celtics & Lakers) who could have been 6-7 ring decade dynasties at almost any other time in the league, but had the misfortune of playing against each other in the same decade.

In terms of legacy if you want to use the faux category "rings as the man" then you could say Jordan edges out Kareem but that's only really because Kareem didn't get the cast or breaks he needed.

It's definitely not because Jordan is the better player. I mean would anyone really take prime Jordan over prime Kareem, if you are starting off a team?

I consider Jordan a little "lucky" in the way/time his career was set up, when you look at the careers of KAJ, Wilt, Bird, Hakeem...you can see why. Kareem's legacy almost seems like it came down to that one game, where his teammates couldn’t provide the help needed, which is pretty unfair. He wins in 1974, he has the better legacy. But seriously, whats the case that makes this so concrete for Jordan? A few more championships as the "main guy" because he had a competitive supporting cast during his prime years? Some more of the meaningless trophies we call the Final playoff series MVP?

Relative to the rest of the league MJ had the best core in the league for a good 7-8 years. Kareem had what, Oscar on his last legs? This was especially obvious in the '74 season. After that, prime Kareem never really got the teams to compete, like Jordan had, or Bird/Magic had. Kareem was literally leading 15-20 win teams to 50+ wins for the later portion of the 70s.

If you think Jordan is the GOAT that's fine, but there isn't this unquestionable line between Jordan and the rest of the great players that the media has made. What a shame that these careers aren't getting the respect they deserve. The GOAT title in basketball is closer and tighter than in any other major North American sports (other than NFL because of all the different positions), but you wouldn't know it

[KOBE143]

KAJ has a case but Kobe has more case..

[Legends66NBA7]

Dominated an era(70s) yet failed to lead his team to multiple championships.

I don't like this card being played.

It can be argued that every era is weak too.


Magic is now top 5 GOAT, this alone speaks how great of a player he was. Is Pippen a top 5 GOAT now? Well?

No, I meant that he wasn't always a Top 5 GOAT player, even when he was younger.

He wasn't the best player on those early and (arguably) the 85 team too.



Kareem does have a case, I wouldn't disagree if you think he is number 1. My top 6 are Jordan, Russell, Magic, Kareem, Wilt, Bird. Just my 5 cents.

Oh for sure, I don't mind people think Kareem is number 1 either. Basically don't agree with anyone saying he doesn't.

[mehyaM24]

magic>>>>kareem.

now whoever is better between magic and mike? its close. dont forget la not only won the 1980 title without "Mvp kareem",but they won by 16...on the road with rookie magic leading the way. not only the most pts of the series without the (alltime)leading scorer kareem, but the 16 pt margin of victory the highest as well.

dont go by ppg....magic elevated that....dont EVER judge players simply by points-per-game. ALEX ENGLISH(a scoring artist in his own right) was the leading scorer in the 80's...NUFF SAID. :lol

[tikay0]

Late 80's/90's basketball will always be considered the NBA's golden era, and MJ was the most dominant player during that era. So, this whole notion of who faced the better competition is pretty damn laughable. You can argue this or that, but when it comes down to it, MJ faced the much stiffer competition.

[Calabis]

Jordan never been on Kareem's level:wtf:

If u believe Kareem is Goat....more power to u, he has a valid Goat case, with Wilt and Russell, can't go wrong with any of those

[DixieNourmous]

Kareem IS the goat.


I agree 100%

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/clap%20clap%20clap/grand/92489767.gif



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_oxedDOLGl9c/TS6XuYIeN_I/AAAAAAAAAbM/14_kN-CF9bY/s1600/JABBAR.jpg

Great sports video of Kareem riding the skyhook to the top of the record book
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0vUJoJVoZg

Kareem interview, speaks of Wilt Chamberlain, many other NBA stars.

[scandisk_]

Backpeddaling to the KAJ when all hope on Kobe was lost :sleeping

[comerb]

. MJ's not the undisputed GOAT

Yes, he is.

[scandisk_]

Yes, he is.


undisputed - generally agreed upon; unchallenged, unquestioned, not subject to dispute; "the undisputed fact"

read the thread.... okay? :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

Late 80's/90's basketball will always be considered the NBA's golden era, and MJ was the most dominant player during that era. So, this whole notion of who faced the better competition is pretty damn laughable. You can argue this or that, but when it comes down to it, MJ faced the much stiffer competition.


Actually the NBA declined greatly after 1988.

From 1988 to the mid 90s, NBA added 6-7 expansion teams. This was the greatest expansion effort in league history. Competition at the top suffered (lets face it, Pippen + role players = contenders in the 90s) and it was the perfect opportunity for a "GOAT" level player to step up and scoop up the championships in the post Magic/Bird era. The East was nearly as bad as it was in the early 00s...seriously, you could beat barely above .500 teams in the East (as Jordan did in '91) on your way to a championship. People remember 90s as better than they actually were, I should know, I grew up remembering 90s as the golden era...now though? I look back at the laughable perimeter talent and even worse comptetion at the top of the league (even the center talent declined greatly post-'95). Not to mention the great advantages perimeter players enjoyed in the era (for reference see this thread comparing the defense from a good 90s team to one of the worst 00s team: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho....php?t=149471). ANYONE who has watched extensive 80s/00s ball is delusional if they think that 90s was a "stronger" era. It's really interesting that the 80s physicality gets assigned to the 90s when 60+ FTA were regular in the 90s. One of the darkest ages in NBA history if not for Jordan's popularity.

What's really interesting is, that the fellow "90s kids" will use the expansion argument to argue against the talent in the 00s era, but refuse to acknowledge that the greatest expansion effort actually took place in the 90s.

Oh and unlike Jordan, Kareem played in 70s, which was an era in which you had 8 different champions in 10 years. The competition and parity was insane. A team that had a shot at winning it all, could easily lose in the first round. The journey to the championship was just much harder, especially with the casts that Kareem had for the latter half of the 70s. Then you have the 80s (Kareem not in his prime but still best player on the team for the early 80s and was 1a/1b in the mid 80s), during which the competition level was remarkable yet again, probably the highest ever. You had two teams (Celtics & Lakers) who could have been 6-7 ring decade dynasties at almost any other time in the league, but had the misfortune of playing against each other in the same decade.

And the 70s was actually the golden age for centers. What threat did MJ ever have on the wing besides Clyde Drexler one year? Also look at who the Lakers beat in the Finals compared to the Bulls...its not even fair. Considering not just teams but the individual match ups when Kareem was going up against the 80's Celtics front line, while Jordan was going up against Byron Russel, Dan Majerle/injured KJ, Hersey Hawkins/Gary Payton and Byron Scott.

[DixieNourmous]

Yes, he is.

do you know what "undisputed" means?

If you did, you would see it IS disputed here, now.

[scandisk_]

Era dominated by 8 teams - good

Era dominated by the Lakers and Celtics - good

:oldlol:

ohhhh the double standards.. I've got a little something for you Ne1, MJ would eat KAJ head-on :oldlol: How I wish their primes collided would've been epic

[Asukal]

I don't like this card being played.

It can be argued that every era is weak too.

I'm not saying the 70s was a weak era, don't put me out of context. What I meant was that he was the unquestionable best player of that decade yet he couldn't lead his team to the top until Magic came. 1973, they lost to a weaker seed in the first round? LOL! Not knocking Kareem but that's kinda funny. :oldlol:

[Legends66NBA7]

I'm not saying the 70s was a weak era, don't put me out of context.

My mistake.


What I meant was that he was the unquestionable best player of that decade yet he couldn't lead his team to the top until Magic came. 1973, they lost to a weaker seed in the first round? LOL! Not knocking Kareem but that's kinda funny.

Yeah, there some things you can't excuse either, which is why I have to dock Kareem as well.

[scandisk_]

I'm not saying the 70s was a weak era, don't put me out of context. What I meant was that he was the unquestionable best player of that decade yet he couldn't lead his team to the top until Magic came. 1973, they lost to a weaker seed in the first round? LOL! Not knocking Kareem but that's kinda funny. :oldlol:

MJ was an absolute beast from mid to late 80's yet I wouldn't even consider him Greater than Bird & Magic (who are proven winners). Though I do value winning a little more than individual brilliance.

[Ne 1]

I'm not saying the 70s was a weak era, don't put me out of context. What I meant was that he was the unquestionable best player of that decade yet he couldn't lead his team to the top until Magic came. 1973, they lost to a weaker seed in the first round? LOL! Not knocking Kareem but that's kinda funny. :oldlol:


Jordan had better casts around him during his prime years than Kareem did, yes. Kareem was out for two extended periods during his prime and his teams were the worst in the league without him (and on pace for around 50 wins with him). People (Jordan trolls in particular) can keep getting at him for not winning more in the mid to late 70s but there comes a point where you have to realize your team just sucks and you can't win even if you play like a god, like Kareem did (Jordan in the late 80s for example). Kareem could have won in '74, they made the Finals, and he had one of the most amazing Finals performances ever (33/12/5/4), which included sinking a game winner in a double overtime to keep his team alive, and abusing the entire Celtics front line. But what else can he do in a game 7, when his second best player (aging Oscar) shoots just 2-13? Even your boy Jordan couldn't win game 7s when his team disappeared (Pistons in 1990 for example, something Jordan fans love to use too).

Put up 35/18/4/5 in the playoffs one time but I guess he "choked" because he was swept by Walton's team. Dropped a near 40/20 on Walton in one game for example (I've seen footage of this), got his teammates involved (who would literally shoot air balls), but when he went to the bench, I remember a comical sequence of them turning over the ball 3-4 times in 10 seconds (you must see it to believe it). All this ring" vs. ring as "#1 guy" is such horse sh*t, it doesn't take into consideration the situations of the two players but people use it to determine who is better than the other.

The Space Jam generation Jordan fan boys will probably log on to your little basketballreference.com site, see he lost in first round to the Sonics and think "omg choke!!"...but what you don't know is Kareem had 5 blocks in the 4th quarter to save his team from getting eliminated. It makes no sense, especially in this case, when one guy has his team winning 55 games and contending without him, and the other guy's teams are bottom dwellers. I mean seriously, you think Jordan is winning titles in his situation during those years? F*ck it, if we are using this whole ring as #1 guy thing, Russel is the undeniable GOAT so lets move on and end this "1 option" crap.

[Alter Ego]

lol. This *****.

Michael Jeffery Jordan, Is God in the form of a basketball player.

There has never been, nor do I think there ever will be (In our life time) a player better than Mike. Deal with it.

[scandisk_]

lol. This *****.

Michael Jeffery Jordan, Is God in the form of a basketball player.

There has never been, nor do I think there ever will be (In our life time) a player better than Mike. Deal with it.

Ne1 is that you? :oldlol: :oldlol:

[Ne 1]

Ne1 is that you? :oldlol: :oldlol:

How would I be logged on at the same time as that guy? Anyway not me though, you can even have a mod/admin check the ip address.

[scandisk_]

How would I be logged on at the same time as that guy? Anyway not me though, you can even have a mod/admin check the ip address.

fair enough :D

[Asukal]

Ne1 is that you? :oldlol: :oldlol:

Ne1 is a kobe stan. :confusedshrug:

[scandisk_]

Ne1 is a kobe stan. :confusedshrug:

sugar :D

Well looking at the thread, it seems like where all in agreement that KAJ has a very strong case. Then out of nowhere an idiot with 8 post who blabbers nonsense appears. I though he was an undercover Kobe apostle who logged in with his alt-account to add fuel to the fire. (thought that post hardly adds anything to the discussion :oldlol: )

[Nevaeh]

Jordan had better casts around him during his prime years than Kareem did, yes. Kareem was out for two extended periods during his prime and his teams were the worst in the league without him (and on pace for around 50 wins with him). People (Jordan trolls in particular) can keep getting at him for not winning more in the mid to late 70s but there comes a point where you have to realize your team just sucks and you can't win even if you play like a god, like Kareem did (Jordan in the late 80s for example). Kareem could have won in '74, they made the Finals, and he had one of the most amazing Finals performances ever (33/12/5/4), which included sinking a game winner in a double overtime to keep his team alive, and abusing the entire Celtics front line. But what else can he do in a game 7, when his second best player (aging Oscar) shoots just 2-13? Even your boy Jordan couldn't win game 7s when his team disappeared (Pistons in 1990 for example, something Jordan fans love to use too).

Put up 35/18/4/5 in the playoffs one time but I guess he "choked" because he was swept by Walton's team. Dropped a near 40/20 on Walton in one game for example (I've seen footage of this), got his teammates involved (who would literally shoot air balls), but when he went to the bench, I remember a comical sequence of them turning over the ball 3-4 times in 10 seconds (you must see it to believe it). All this ring" vs. ring as "#1 guy" is such horse sh*t, it doesn't take into consideration the situations of the two players but people use it to determine who is better than the other.

The Space Jam generation Jordan fan boys will probably log on to your little basketballreference.com site, see he lost in first round to the Sonics and think "omg choke!!"...but what you don't know is Kareem had 5 blocks in the 4th quarter to save his team from getting eliminated. It makes no sense, especially in this case, when one guy has his team winning 55 games and contending without him, and the other guy's teams are bottom dwellers. I mean seriously, you think Jordan is winning titles in his situation during those years? F*ck it, if we are using this whole ring as #1 guy thing, Russel is the undeniable GOAT so lets move on and end this "1 option" crap.

Still bitter from your boy choking in 11 my n!gga? http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif

[RRR3]

Still bitter from your boy choking in 11 my n!gga? http://www.ezboard.com/images/emoticons/laugh.gif
You talking about bean or bron?

[Nevaeh]

You talking about bean or bron?

The one that got swept with Phil Jackson, who had never been swept until 11, as his coach.
:pimp:

[Legends66NBA7]

You talking about bean or bron?

Not to speak for Nev, but he's talking about Bean.

When I used to lurk, I used to read threads about Nev and Ne1 going at it in Jordan/Kobe related threads.

Bean and Bron both choked in 11, still.

[RRR3]

The one that got swept with Phil Jackson, who had never been swept until 11, as his coach.
:pimp:
GAWDBE setting' yet another record! :bowdown:

[Rooster]

magic>>>>kareem.

now whoever is better between magic and mike? its close. dont forget la not only won the 1980 title without "Mvp kareem",but they won by 16...on the road with rookie magic leading the way. not only the most pts of the series without the (alltime)leading scorer kareem, but the 16 pt margin of victory the highest as well.

dont go by ppg....magic elevated that....dont EVER judge players simply by points-per-game. ALEX ENGLISH(a scoring artist in his own right) was the leading scorer in the 80's...NUFF SAID. :lol

Funny because Kareem was supposed to be MVP on that Finals. He dominated that series and the only reason he sat out was Lakers made sure he will be ready for Game 7 which of course did not happen because of Magic taking over on game 6.

Kareem is underappreciated by media because of his aloofness and non charismatic personality. He has the case for GOAT but because of lesser talent around him in his prime, winning was not really strong on his resume unlike Jordan but nonetheless he dominated the league.

[LeBird]

This is exactly how and why Kareem can be overrated.

If you just look at his accomplishments and don't take any of his accomplishments into context at all, you would think he is the greatest player to ever play the game because he easily has the most and best accomplishments of any NBA player that has ever played.

Once you start taking those accomplishments into context such as the rings then you would start to realize that Kareem isn't the GOAT or at least not easily the GOAT.

Does Kareem have an argument? Clearly, but not for some of the reasons in this thread.

You could pretty much say the same exact thing about Jordan + context.

[dunksby]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]All I have heard from MJ fans is "more rings as the man" and "more final series of the playoffs mvps".

To that you can say that Jordan had more help during his absolute prime years in comparison with Kareem. Bucks had a solid team for the first 3-4 years of his time there. They made the Finals in '74 where Kareem put on one of the greatest series performances in Finals history 33/12/5.4/2 (+ game winner in game 6), with a 35 year old Oscar Robertson playing as his next best player in that series. In fact, Kareem was torching them with 35 ppg in the first six games and then in game 7 the Celtics absolutely locked in on him. No player has been targeted like that in the Finals, 2-3 guys boxing him out when possible, double team on almost every post up, triple if necessary, double teaming before he even got the ball to deny it to him. On post ups as he was backing down on a defender, he