Is Bruce Lee the greatest fighter who ever lived?

[bmd]

I hear this quite often...

but what has he actually accomplished in terms of actually fighting?

All I have ever found were anecdotes of him beating up some Chinese bums on the street in China.

There is literally zero proof that he was ever even in a fight, much less won a fight, much less should be considered the greatest fighter ever.

A lot of his "feats" are also ridiculous, and impossible:

"In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind." (as if just snatching the dime wasn't enough... he had to leave a penny behind lol).

"Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups." <-- so much bullshit.

"Lee could cause a 300-lb (136.08 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick." <-- As somebody who has done martial arts for years and has friends who train in Muay Thai... this is out of this world ridiculous.

"Lee held an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer." <-- Not a chance in hell. This is an elevated v-sit:

http://limbermen.com/gk/Kurt_Thomas_V-sit.jpg



How did this legend get pumped up to insanely mythical proportions?

[SourPatchKids]

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2012_The_Raid/2012_the_raid_008.jpg

[B-Low]

1. Charlie Z
2. Ghengis Khan
3. Bruce Lee
4. Carmello Anthony
5. Mike Tyson

FACT.

[AlphaWolf24]

Was he th greatest "fighter" of alltime...no....

Was he one of the most influential fighters of alltime?.....yes.

He trained multiple diciplines and understood the value of each.

He trained modern "MMA" before 90% of the population even knew what a armbar or shoulder lock was.

http://www.martialartsactionmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Bruce-Lee-doing-an-Armbar.jpg

[BMOGEFan]

I hear this quite often...

but what has he actually accomplished in terms of actually fighting?

All I have ever found were anecdotes of him beating up some Chinese bums on the street in China.

There is literally zero proof that he was ever even in a fight, much less won a fight, much less should be considered the greatest fighter ever.

A lot of his "feats" are also ridiculous, and impossible:

"In a speed demonstration, Lee could snatch a dime off a person's open palm before they could close it, and leave a penny behind." (as if just snatching the dime wasn't enough... he had to leave a penny behind lol).

"Lee performed 50 reps of one-arm chin-ups." <-- so much bullshit.

"Lee could cause a 300-lb (136.08 kg) bag to fly towards and thump the ceiling with a sidekick." <-- As somebody who has done martial arts for years and has friends who train in Muay Thai... this is out of this world ridiculous.

"Lee held an elevated v-sit position for 30 minutes or longer." <-- Not a chance in hell. This is an elevated v-sit:

http://limbermen.com/gk/Kurt_Thomas_V-sit.jpg



How did this legend get pumped up to insanely mythical proportions?

I don't know why u dispute the bag hitting the ceiling...there is a video of it somewhere..not with a sidekick but a double dragon type jump kick.

[Legend of Josh]

This is like asking if Michael Jordan the best basketball player of all time (or ever lived). On paper, yes. How could you respectfully say otherwise? Until there's a "proven" better, we have to go with what we know.

Having said that, I believe it's quite possible there has been potentially better bball players than Jordan (Earl Manigault just to toss a random possibly meaningless example out there) that simply never made it, or somewhere along the way got derailed and scored a different path in life.

In terms of fighting... LOL, there's no doubt some brawlers out there. Hell, I can throw them thangs, but any MMA professional would beat my ass senseless, etc. Who's to say some MMA fighter in the next 5-7 years "couldn't" have defeated Bruce Lee if given the impossible opportunity?

It's an interesting ? ... there's just no way to know for sure. Bruce Lee's story is just as significant as his raw fighting ability IMO.

Besides ... if Johnny Cage were real, no doubt he'd make BL his bee I tee see h.

[AlphaWolf24]

This is like asking if Michael Jordan the best basketball player of all time (or ever lived). On paper, yes. How could you respectfully say otherwise? Until there's a "proven" better, we have to go with what we know.

Having said that, I believe it's quite possible there has been potentially better bball players than Jordan (Earl Manigault just to toss a random possibly meaningless example out there) that simply never made it, or somewhere along the way got derailed and scored a different path in life.

In terms of fighting... LOL, there's no doubt some brawlers out there. Hell, I can throw them thangs, but any MMA professional would beat my ass senseless, etc. Who's to say some MMA fighter in the next 5-7 years "couldn't" have defeated Bruce Lee if given the impossible opportunity?

It's an interesting ? ... there's just no way to know for sure. Bruce Lee's story is just as significant as his raw fighting ability IMO.

Besides ... if Johnny Cage were real, no doubt he'd make BL his bee I tee see h.


on paper Lee is no where close to bieng the best fighter...just as on paper Jordan is not close to bieng the best Basketball player.

[StateOfMind12]

Really? Nobody has mentioned SinJackal yet?

[Legend of Josh]

on paper Lee is no where close to bieng the best fighter...just as on paper Jordan is not close to bieng the best Basketball player.

Who's a better proven fighter than BL? Who's a better proven bball player than Jordan?

If you ask the majority of the world population who's the best at each respective skill, who do you think gets the most votes?

:confusedshrug:

Maybe "on paper" (if you want to talk purely stats, etc... I was thinking more along the lines of commonly accepted perception) wasn't the best term to use... but you get my point.

[bmd]

Was he th greatest "fighter" of alltime...no....

Was he one of the most influential fighters of alltime?.....yes.

He trained multiple diciplines and understood the value of each.

He trained modern "MMA" before 90% of the population even knew what a armbar or shoulder lock was.

http://www.martialartsactionmovies.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Bruce-Lee-doing-an-Armbar.jpgHe never trained modern MMA. And 90% of the population still don't know what an armbar or shoulder lock is.

Bruce Lee trained a little bit in Judo with Gene Labell, but he didn't seriously cross train like people today.

And Bruce Lee was NOT the first person to do it.

Frickin' Teddy Roosevelt used to practice boxing, wrestling, judo and jiu jitsu.

Ever heard of Danny Hodge? Of course you haven't. But anyway, he was a silver medalist in the 1956 Olympics in wrestling, and was also a professional golden gloves boxer.

http://video.oeta.tv/creativity/_thumbs/danny_hodge.jpg

He would have destroyed Bruce Lee.


So could you say Bruce Lee was one of the most influential "martial artists"? Sure.

Could you say he was one of the most influential "FIGHTERS"? No.

[bmd]

I don't know why u dispute the bag hitting the ceiling...there is a video of it somewhere..not with a sidekick but a double dragon type jump kick.No there isn't. I can guarantee you. But if there is, show me.

And it is impossible because I know how heavy a 300 pound bag is, and nobody could make it hit the ceiling with a kick.

It would be the equivalant of little 140 pound Bruce Lee kicking Shaquille O'Neal so hard he flies through the air and hits the ceiling.

[Godzuki]

no he's not. he's exaggerated but people don't want to hear it. they'd rather believe in the myth of bruce lee than the reality.

i posted a thread a long time ago here breaking it all down from one of his students.

[bmd]

This is like asking if Michael Jordan the best basketball player of all time (or ever lived). On paper, yes. How could you respectfully say otherwise? Until there's a "proven" better, we have to go with what we know.

Having said that, I believe it's quite possible there has been potentially better bball players than Jordan (Earl Manigault just to toss a random possibly meaningless example out there) that simply never made it, or somewhere along the way got derailed and scored a different path in life.

In terms of fighting... LOL, there's no doubt some brawlers out there. Hell, I can throw them thangs, but any MMA professional would beat my ass senseless, etc. Who's to say some MMA fighter in the next 5-7 years "couldn't" have defeated Bruce Lee if given the impossible opportunity?

It's an interesting ? ... there's just no way to know for sure. Bruce Lee's story is just as significant as his raw fighting ability IMO.

Besides ... if Johnny Cage were real, no doubt he'd make BL his bee I tee see h.Because Bruce Lee has no actual documented fights. It is just stories.

And even in the stories he's not fighting anybody good. He's fighting unknown scrubs.

It would be like some guy from the streets claiming he's awesome at basketball, but nobody has ever seen him play. The only things we know about him are what his boys say. They say he's awesome and he's beat these scrub basketball players behind closed doors. Nobody has ever seen him compete against scrubs, much less NBA players. Yet they say he is the greatest of all time.

Makes no sense.

[magic chiongson]

bruce lee can beat 2 mountain lions

[bmd]

Who's a better proven fighter than BL? Who's a better proven bball player than Jordan?

If you ask the majority of the world population who's the best at each respective skill, who do you think gets the most votes?

:confusedshrug:

Maybe "on paper" (if you want to talk purely stats, etc... I was thinking more along the lines of commonly accepted perception) wasn't the best term to use... but you get my point.That is just the thing... Michael Jordan IS a proven basketball player. He's proven it against the best in the world.

Bruce Lee is NOT a proven fighter. He hasn't proven it ever. Nobody has ever seen him fight apart from a few "witnesses", who are his close friends and family.

Bruce Lee is not proven at all. Not even on paper.

[Legend of Josh]

bruce lee can beat 2 mountain lions

I heard he made the legendary sasquatch of the Himalayas scream uncle during a match, while blindfolded and tripping off LSD. That's pretty damn impressive.

[Legend of Josh]

That is just the thing... Michael Jordan IS a proven basketball player. He's proven it against the best in the world.

Bruce Lee is NOT a proven fighter. He hasn't proven it ever. Nobody has ever seen him fight apart from a few "witnesses", who are his close friends and family.

Bruce Lee is not proven at all. Not even on paper.

Fair enough. Do you think Bruce Lee's legend was just some elaborate lie?

[bmd]

Fair enough. Do you think Bruce Lee's legend was just some elaborate lie?I don't know. I don't know if the stories are true, or if they were a lie.

But even if the stories WERE true... it proves nothing. It would be like me saying I beat Jimmy Phillips in basketball today at the local playground. In fact, I crushed him. Your next question would be who the hell is Jimmy Phillips?

That is what Bruce Lee's fight history is like. It is just stories about him winning fights against unknown people.

So even IF the stories were true, I don't see how it proves anything about him being a great fighter when there were famous martial artists back then who ACTUALLY FOUGHT. Not just fought... but fought other famous martial artists.


I have no idea how the Bruce Lee legend was started.

[tontoz]

Chuck Norris was the best fighter of that generation. He was the guy winning world titles in his own weight class AND beating the guys who won the heavyweight class.

Bruce Lee would be sitting in the crowd watching Norris fight but Lee wasn't in the ring proving himself.

Norris >> Lee

[bmd]

Chuck Norris was the best fighter of that generation. He was the guy winning world titles in his own weight class AND beating the guys who won the heavyweight class.

Bruce Lee would be sitting in the crowd watching Norris fight but Lee wasn't in the ring proving himself.

Norris >> LeeNorris certainly has proven himself more than Lee has.

But even still, Norris competed in non-contact Karate... not exactly a "fight".

[Batz]

Fair enough. Do you think Bruce Lee's legend was just some elaborate lie?
Wouldn't be surprised. The guy was a huge cult media icon. Witty rumors and myths were inevitable to rise. Much like Wilt Chamberlain myths. But people can get really creative with it, I can tell you that much.

[Legend of Josh]

Wouldn't be surprised. The guy was a huge cult media icon. Witty rumors and myths were inevitable to rise. Much like Wilt Chamberlain myths. But people can get really creative with it, I can tell you that much.

I could see how the East would "fall in love" with BL's story, legend. etc (but the West did, too)... but to think it was some marketing, self-driven deception to the West in addition, I can't say for sure.

BL wasn't a boxer... which was the supreme fighting arena around "his time" (in the West anyway).

There's just no way to know... but I think there's SOME truth to his legacy.

[AK47DR91]

1. Charlie Z
2. Ghengis Khan
3. Bruce Lee
4. Carmello Anthony
5. Mike Tyson

FACT.
Godzuki should be up there on the list. He beats up 5-6 message board members at the same time. He's undefeated on ISH.

:bowdown: All hail Godsuki!

[-p.tiddy-]

http://newspaper.li/static/eee7a6205128597047075e72a325eddc.jpg

the actual greatest fighter of all time...

[OhNoTimNoSho]

Realistically, Bruce Lee was an extremely talented fighter, who likes in those tales could take on 10 dudes at once. BUT. Fighting regular people is easy as an elite fighter. Today, fighting has advanced leaps and bounds, a top MMA fighter could probably take out Bruce Lee. Though in a street fight Bruce Lee was probably ruthless, ripping out peoples' eyeballs and shit.

[bmd]

I could see how the East would "fall in love" with BL's story, legend. etc (but the West did, too)... but to think it was some marketing, self-driven deception to the West in addition, I can't say for sure.

BL wasn't a boxer... which was the supreme fighting arena around "his time" (in the West anyway).

There's just no way to know... but I think there's SOME truth to his legacy.So? Boxing was mainstream, but martial artists competed in martial arts tournaments.

Some even competed in "MMA" type matches. Like when "Judo" Gene Labell fought boxer Milo Savage in 1963.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mER2BmNRA

There were full-contact "Vale Tudo" (anything goes) fights in Brazil all through the 20th century.

Or about Gracie vs. Kimura? Gracie was a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu fighter and Kimura was a Japanese Jiu Jitsu / Judo fighter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSPL2BFepgU


As a martial artist, Bruce Lee could have fought in many different types of martial arts matches from no-contact to full-contact to anything goes.

He COULD have. But he didn't.

[bmd]

Realistically, Bruce Lee was an extremely talented fighter, who likes in those tales could take on 10 dudes at once. BUT. Fighting regular people is easy as an elite fighter. Today, fighting has advanced leaps and bounds, a top MMA fighter could probably take out Bruce Lee. Though in a street fight Bruce Lee was probably ruthless, ripping out peoples' eyeballs and shit.Even trained fighters can't take 10 guys at once.

And what makes you think he would "rip out people's eyeballs"? From the stories we know about his fights on the street, he has never done such a thing.

[Jackass18]

If you ask the majority of the world population who's the best at each respective skill, who do you think gets the most votes?

Who cares? That would be basically finding out who the most well known fighter is.

[DonDadda59]

Some even competed in "MMA" type matches. Like when "Judo" Gene Labell fought boxer Milo Savage in 1963.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mER2BmNRA


Wasn't Gene Labell the guy who choked out Steven Seagal and made him shit himself while passed out? :oldlol:

And I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Bruce Lee the greatest fighter ever. Guy was an actor. That's like saying Christian Bale is the greatest crime fighter ever, makes no sense.

[bladefd]

Chuck Norris was the best fighter of that generation. He was the guy winning world titles in his own weight class AND beating the guys who won the heavyweight class.

Bruce Lee would be sitting in the crowd watching Norris fight but Lee wasn't in the ring proving himself.

Norris >> Lee

Bruce Lee can destroy a Chuck Norris, Steven Seagal and Jackie Chan trio into pulp solo while blind-folded.

Bruce Lee can run 100 yards and squish Chuck Norris' balls before he can blink.

Bruce Lee can lift Chuck Norris and toss him a whole football field distance with one hand.

Bruce Lee can beat up Chuck Norris 1v1 with his both hands tied behind his back, eyes blindfolded and a shoe partially up his ass.

Bruce Lee can put Chuck Norris out faster than Charles Barkley can eat a munchkin.

[LJJ]

http://i.imgur.com/yGGWV.jpg

the actual greatest fighter of all time...

True dat.

[Jackass18]

True dat.

Pffft, he'd get taken down and twisted into a pretzel.

[bmd]

Wasn't Gene Labell the guy who choked out Steven Seagal and made him shit himself while passed out? :oldlol:

And I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Bruce Lee the greatest fighter ever. Guy was an actor. That's like saying Christian Bale is the greatest crime fighter ever, makes no sense.Supposedly LeBell choked him out and made him poop his pants.

Seagal denies it, of course. But I'd trust LeBell's word over Seagal's.

And I've heard a lot of people say Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever. Have you never heard people seriously have debates like "who would win in a fight... Bruce Lee or Mike Tyson?".

Mike Tyson would murder Bruce Lee.

[RedBlackAttack]

Some even competed in "MMA" type matches. Like when "Judo" Gene Labell fought boxer Milo Savage in 1963.

Here is a video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mER2BmNRA

That was fantastic. Thanks.

[Batz]

I could see how the East would "fall in love" with BL's story, legend. etc (but the West did, too)... but to think it was some marketing, self-driven deception to the West in addition, I can't say for sure.

BL wasn't a boxer... which was the supreme fighting arena around "his time" (in the West anyway).

There's just no way to know... but I think there's SOME truth to his legacy.
It wasn't just the West. Though Hollywood had tons to do with it. Lee basically was the star and babyface when Martial Arts movies were at its mainstream peak. The China market was in-love with Lee.

[DonDadda59]

Supposedly LeBell choked him out and made him poop his pants.

Seagal denies it, of course. But I'd trust LeBell's word over Seagal's.

And I've heard a lot of people say Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever. Have you never heard people seriously have debates like "who would win in a fight... Bruce Lee or Mike Tyson?".

Mike Tyson would murder Bruce Lee.

Yeah, I remember hearing that story about Labell putting Seagal to sleep and Steven shitting himself. Apparently it was backed up by several people since it happened on a movie set in front of others. Plus if anyone in the martial arts world is a fraud, it's Steven f*cking Seagal. Couldn't have happened to a more deserving person.

And I would hope Tyson would be able to beat Lee seeing as how he had like 90-100 lbs on him :confusedshrug:

[LJJ]

Pffft, he'd get taken down and twisted into a pretzel.

We would see this:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee294/founinja/ErnestoHoostKTFOMauriceSmith-1.gif

And then we would see this:
http://i26.tinypic.com/1zv3ep1.jpg

[RedBlackAttack]

Supposedly LeBell choked him out and made him poop his pants.

Seagal denies it, of course. But I'd trust LeBell's word over Seagal's.

And I've heard a lot of people say Bruce Lee is the greatest fighter ever. Have you never heard people seriously have debates like "who would win in a fight... Bruce Lee or Mike Tyson?".

Mike Tyson would murder Bruce Lee.
To be fair, I don't think when people compare fighters, they expect a guy who is 140 pounds to beat a guy who is 230 assuming both are elite in their respective fighting styles.

Bruce Lee was, first and foremost, an actor. His legend has grown over the years and he is now looked upon by many as the consummate professional fighter. That was never an accurate description for him and, further, he never tried to be that.

It is just a case of people being enamored with his legend, which is sort of understandable.

FWIW, I also wouldn't put Mike Tyson anywhere near the top of the greatest fighters of all-time. He certainly proved himself more than Lee against competent competition, but he is generally overrated by pretty much everyone.


A guy I would have liked to have seen compete in an MMA format had it been around when he was the man is Dan Gable. I have a feeling he would have been a monster. That is one tough SOB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVBBzUUpsQ

[LONGTIME]

Mike Tyson would murder Bruce Lee.

:coleman: Lee would wreck Tyson in a street fight.

[AlphaWolf24]

He never trained modern MMA. And 90% of the population still don't know what an armbar or shoulder lock is.

Bruce Lee trained a little bit in Judo with Gene Labell, but he didn't seriously cross train like people today.

And Bruce Lee was NOT the first person to do it.

Frickin' Teddy Roosevelt used to practice boxing, wrestling, judo and jiu jitsu.

Ever heard of Danny Hodge? Of course you haven't. But anyway, he was a silver medalist in the 1956 Olympics in wrestling, and was also a professional golden gloves boxer.

http://video.oeta.tv/creativity/_thumbs/danny_hodge.jpg

He would have destroyed Bruce Lee.


So could you say Bruce Lee was one of the most influential "martial artists"? Sure.

Could you say he was one of the most influential "FIGHTERS"? No.


of course he never trained MMA.....there was no modern MMA back when Lee first started.

I never said he was the first person to cross train...But he was one of the first guy's to cross train and document the value of each dicipline.

- Lee was a "Fighter" IMO , since he trained in Boxing , Kickboxing etc...too go along with train submission grappling. ( not sure why you think wrestling and boxing (Hodge) is fighting but slight Lee for Kickboxing and grappling)He created, before his untimely death, an approach to martial arts training and fighting that is followed, to a greater or lesser extent, by thousands of martial arts practitioners.
He was an innovator in the martial arts and some of his theories anticipated the "mma craze" of today.

could you say he was one of the most influencial "Martial Artists" ?? yes...

IMo you can also say he was a fighter...since he used his techniques in real life....ther was no modern MMA like we know today.

If some guy who trains BBJ twice a week can FIGHT "UFC":rolleyes: and be a Fighter...then LEE was most def a Fighter.


PS: Hodge may have destroyed LEE in a MMA fight.....but if Hodge had no clue about submission fighting then LEE could have very well choked him/joint manipulated him.

just as shown here when 5'9" 160lbs Hickson chokes a 220lbs top shelf wrestler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fngsgye5cg4

and again...this time Hickson fights a much larger opponent who had expierience wrestling and kickboxing....in fact IMO Zulu ( the opponent) would smash Hodge very easily....but the much smaller sub grappler (wich Bruce LEE trained and knew many chokes and joint manipulation) won..

yes the more I think about it....Lee knew Jujitsu.....easy victory against Hodge who would take him down ...yet get choked .

[AlphaWolf24]

Who's a better proven fighter than BL? Who's a better proven bball player than Jordan?

If you ask the majority of the world population who's the best at each respective skill, who do you think gets the most votes?

:confusedshrug:

Maybe "on paper" (if you want to talk purely stats, etc... I was thinking more along the lines of commonly accepted perception) wasn't the best term to use... but you get my point.


so basically you are NOT TALKING about "ON PAPER"

you are talking about procieved /acclamation / Majority opinion

the exact opposite of "on paper"...

"on paper" I don't think Lee had any pro fights ...on paper (comparing superstars) Jordan didn't win the most titles ( not even close actually), didn't score the most points , wasn't the best defender ever ,wasn't the best shooter ever, doesn'thave the most accolades...doesn't have the best winning %

[-p.tiddy-]

Jordan has a lot going for him "on paper" though...a ton

much more than Bruce that's for sure...

[tontoz]

Norris certainly has proven himself more than Lee has.

But even still, Norris competed in non-contact Karate... not exactly a "fight".


It wasn't non-contact. Contact was optional. Fighters were free to let their punches go if they chose too. Once Norris got his nose broken in a fight and one of the judges came into the ring, grabbed his nose and pulled, straightening it out. The fight continued and Norris won.

[-p.tiddy-]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/pts_per_g_career.html

I think a case can be made for Jordan GOAT paper champ...

[tontoz]

A guy I would have liked to have seen compete in an MMA format had it been around when he was the man is Dan Gable. I have a feeling he would have been a monster. That is one tough SOB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kVBBzUUpsQ


I remember hearing about him although i never followed wrestling. He trained so hard that people thought he was nuts.

Who was that Russian heavyweight who dominated Greco Roman wrestling for so long? Cant remember his name but he would have been nasty in MMA.

[RedBlackAttack]

I remember hearing about him although i never followed wrestling. He trained so hard that people thought he was nuts.

Who was that Russian heavyweight who dominated Greco Roman wrestling for so long? Cant remember his name but he would have been nasty in MMA.
That would be Alexander Karelin.

He was a monster, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDDXpjFtP0

[bmd]

of course he never trained MMA.....there was no modern MMA back when Lee first started.

I never said he was the first person to cross train...But he was one of the first guy's to cross train and document the value of each dicipline.

- Lee was a "Fighter" IMO , since he trained in Boxing , Kickboxing etc...too go along with train submission grappling. ( not sure why you think wrestling and boxing (Hodge) is fighting but slight Lee for Kickboxing and grappling)He created, before his untimely death, an approach to martial arts training and fighting that is followed, to a greater or lesser extent, by thousands of martial arts practitioners.
He was an innovator in the martial arts and some of his theories anticipated the "mma craze" of today.

could you say he was one of the most influencial "Martial Artists" ?? yes...

IMo you can also say he was a fighter...since he used his techniques in real life....ther was no modern MMA like we know today.

If some guy who trains BBJ twice a week can FIGHT "UFC":rolleyes: and be a Fighter...then LEE was most def a Fighter.


PS: Hodge may have destroyed LEE in a MMA fight.....but if Hodge had no clue about submission fighting then LEE could have very well choked him/joint manipulated him.

just as shown here when 5'9" 160lbs Hickson chokes a 220lbs top shelf wrestler http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fngsgye5cg4

and again...this time Hickson fights a much larger opponent who had expierience wrestling and kickboxing....in fact IMO Zulu ( the opponent) would smash Hodge very easily....but the much smaller sub grappler (wich Bruce LEE trained and knew many chokes and joint manipulation) won..

yes the more I think about it....Lee knew Jujitsu.....easy victory against Hodge who would take him down ...yet get choked .Okay... let me break this down piece by piece:

1. Lee was one of the first to cross-train and document the value of each discipline? Really? What is this then:

President Theodore Roosevelt, on March 5, 1904 he wrote his son Kermit:

My throat is a little sore, because once when one of them had a stranglehold I also got hold of his windpipe and thought I could perhaps choke him off before he could choke me. However, he got ahead.


A month later, he wrote his son Theodore Jr.:
I am very glad I have been doing this Japanese wrestling, but when I am through with it this time I am not at all sure I shall ever try it again

[tontoz]

Found him. Alexander Karelin


http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/386365/aleksandr-karelin-1_feature.png

[dunksby]

Only morons would think Lee is the greatest fighter ever, dude was an actor who strove to popularize martial arts. He was a performer and a damn good one, he is probably the most influential martial artist of all time. His movies are the reason that action movies today mostly feature complex fighting scenes done by a fight choreographer. How would Matrix look like without Woo-ping's crazy choreography?

[rezznor]

huge lee fan here but GOAT fighter? come on.

besides, hasn't the early UFC shown us that you can't just throw random fighters in the ring together and expect a fair fight? size makes a huge difference.

Lee would certainly be competitive in his weight class, but I dunno about GOAT

[ILLsmak]

Realistically, Bruce Lee was an extremely talented fighter, who likes in those tales could take on 10 dudes at once. BUT. Fighting regular people is easy as an elite fighter. Today, fighting has advanced leaps and bounds, a top MMA fighter could probably take out Bruce Lee. Though in a street fight Bruce Lee was probably ruthless, ripping out peoples' eyeballs and shit.

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Edit: and we're actually gonna compare a diary about how fights went to diagrams and ideas on how to master fighting? All of that shit Bruce said about being "like water" or "don't think, feel", that shit is super deep even though it sounds cliche.

-Smak

[AlphaWolf24]

Okay... let me break this down piece by piece:

1. Lee was one of the first to cross-train and document the value of each discipline? Really? What is this then:

President Theodore Roosevelt, on March 5, 1904 he wrote his son Kermit:

My throat is a little sore, because once when one of them had a stranglehold I also got hold of his windpipe and thought I could perhaps choke him off before he could choke me. However, he got ahead.


A month later, he wrote his son Theodore Jr.:
I am very glad I have been doing this Japanese wrestling, but when I am through with it this time I am not at all sure I shall ever try it again… I find the wrestling a trifle too vehement for mere rest. My right ankle and left wrist and one thumb and both great toes are swollen sufficiently to more or less impair their usefulness, and I am well mottled with bruises elsewhere. Still I have made good progress, and since you have left they have taught me three new throws that are perfect corkers.


February 23, 1905 the President arranged a private match between Professor Yamashita and a middleweight catch-as-catch-can wrestler named Joseph Grant. In a letter to his son Kermit, Roosevelt described the outcome:

Grant did not know what to do except to put Yamashita on his back, and Yamashita was perfectly content to be on his back. Inside of a minute Yamashita had choked Grant, and inside of two minutes more he had got an elbow hold on him… [Still,] Grant in the actual wrestling and throwing was about as good as the Japanese, and he was so much stronger that he evidently hurt and wore out the little Japanese.

Jiu-jitsu is not of great value as a means of physical development, but that the possession of a knowledge of this system would inspire the individual with a degree of self-confidence; hence it is recommended that jiu-jitsu be incorporated in the [physical training] course with boxing and wrestling.


2. I counted Hodge as a fighter and not Lee because.... Hodge ACTUALLY FOUGHT. He was a boxer and wrestler. He actually fought in competition. Bruce Lee did not. He practiced in a gym and never fought. That is the difference.

3. Why do you think Bruce Lee was great at submission fighting? Gene LeBell (the guy who trained him in submission fighting), said Bruce Lee didn't train in it that much and wasn't very good. Bruce Lee was interested in it, and did train in it some, but he wasn't good at it because he didn't do it enough.

Danny Hodge was also a catch-wrestler. If you don't know what a catch-wrestler is, then you should look it up. Catch wrestling is all about submission holds.

The fact that you think Bruce Lee could have submitted Danny Hodge shows you have no idea what you are talking about.


#1. Again..I said LEE was one of the first...not the first.

recap: Lee was one of the First artists to use mulitiple diciplines...not the first.

#2. You claim Hodge is a real Fighter becuase he boxed and was an olympic wrestler...yet you claim LEE is not because he used many disiplines and never had PRO Fights.

- so I have 1 question...was Royce Gracie a "real Fighter" before UFC 1????????? simple yes or no answer will do.

Royce faught a pro boxer who was ranked .....in UFC 1.....and beat him...(before Royce had any "real fights ..using your criteria) Royce Gracie was not a Fighter...all he did was practice in a Gym just as LEE did.:lol



#3. LEE knew some submission grappling.....
was Hodge and expert in Catch can wrestling?..who knows....catch wrestling was used along with freestyle wrestling in Japan....it has basic subs from leg locks to shoulder locks....it does not really focus on fighting from your back....as Judo and Jujitsu does.

if Lee knew simple chokes from his back and posyure control...no doubt he could sub Hodge.

your lame attempt to use Catch Can wrestling is silly.....and your blatant slighting of Bruce Lee claiming he wasn't a real "fighter" because he wasn't putting pillows on his hands and boxing professionally shows most likely you are a TUF Newb.



























next

[AlphaWolf24]

True dat.


Erensto Hoost lost to Bob Sapp.....kinda hard to be the greatest when you lose to Bob Sapp

[AlphaWolf24]

I remember hearing about him although i never followed wrestling. He trained so hard that people thought he was nuts.

Who was that Russian heavyweight who dominated Greco Roman wrestling for so long? Cant remember his name but he would have been nasty in MMA.



That would be Alexander Karelin.

He was a monster, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDDXpjFtP0

IMO he would be a middle tier MMA fighter ..

He gassed in his only "Mixed style fight " vs a less then stellar opponent...

he pretty much just layed on top....and looked like he couln't take a punch at all (think Brock Lesnar)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEQqUmPgdq4

any HW with TD defense and average striking would wreck him.....Overeem would make him his *****.

[dunksby]

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Edit: and we're actually gonna compare a diary about how fights went to diagrams and ideas on how to master fighting? All of that shit Bruce said about being "like water" or "don't think, feel", that shit is super deep even though it sounds cliche.

-Smak
Eastern fighting schools pride themselves in trying to improve their minds and souls through practice Zen and Martial Arts. Martial arts is another form of being in sync with nature that is why different fighting styles are supposedly imitations of different creatures' fighting styles as they were invented by Shaolin monks who spent great deal of time meditating and observing nature at work in order to gain enlightenment. Zen greatly influenced the Chinese after it was introduced to them by an Indian monk and they incorporated it to their practice of Martial Arts.

[bmd]

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Edit: and we're actually gonna compare a diary about how fights went to diagrams and ideas on how to master fighting? All of that shit Bruce said about being "like water" or "don't think, feel", that shit is super deep even though it sounds cliche.

-SmakThis is what I am talking about. There are only "stories".

What in your right mind makes you think he'd "beat all of those MMA guys"?

[DonDadda59]

This is what I am talking about. There are only "stories".

What in your right mind makes you think he'd "beat all of those MMA guys"?

This guy has a point. If all of Steven Seagal's tall tales were accepted as fact, he'd gone down as the biggest bad ass that ever walked the Earth.

Lee was an actor and martial artist. His fighting record is virtually nonexistent outside of 'stories' and anecdotes.

[bmd]

#1. Again..I said LEE was one of the first...not the first.

recap: Lee was one of the First artists to use mulitiple diciplines...not the first.

#2. You claim Hodge is a real Fighter becuase he boxed and was an olympic wrestler...yet you claim LEE is not because he used many disiplines and never had PRO Fights.

- so I have 1 question...was Royce Gracie a "real Fighter" before UFC 1????????? simple yes or no answer will do.

Royce faught a pro boxer who was ranked .....in UFC 1.....and beat him...(before Royce had any "real fights ..using your criteria) Royce Gracie was not a Fighter...all he did was practice in a Gym just as LEE did.:lol



#3. LEE knew some submission grappling.....
was Hodge and expert in Catch can wrestling?..who knows....catch wrestling was used along with freestyle wrestling in Japan....it has basic subs from leg locks to shoulder locks....it does not really focus on fighting from your back....as Judo and Jujitsu does.

if Lee knew simple chokes from his back and posyure control...no doubt he could sub Hodge.

your lame attempt to use Catch Can wrestling is silly.....and your blatant slighting of Bruce Lee claiming he wasn't a real "fighter" because he wasn't putting pillows on his hands and boxing professionally shows most likely you are a TUF Newb.



























next1. Lee wasn't even close to the first. Why do you keep saying that? I posted something Teddy Roosevelt said from the turn of the century. Do you honestly think there wasn't thousands of others that didn't have similar thoughts as Teddy Roosevelt from the year 1900 until the 1960's when Bruce Lee was a young adult?

2. Oh, Royce Gracie never had any fights before UFC 1?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ZDKQHBOO8

3. Lee did know SOME submission grappling... but you are comparing him to Danny Hodge, a silver medalist Olympic wrestler who also knew submission grappling.

Catch wrestling is legit. Ever heard of Sakuraba or Josh Barnett?

[Jackass18]

Yeah, in my opinion that's why Bruce Lee was real. He'd do whatever.

I think that "real life" matters a lot in terms of sport, art, whatever... but there is a level of conceptual knowledge that people tend to discredit. Bruce had a lot of good insight in terms of fighting that he wrote down.

His MIND was a fighter's mind. Now, you can say that he might have broken in the right circumstance, but he had a fighter's body and a fighter's mind, it's hard to say he isn't a great fighter.

I still remember the story of some guy saying he thought Bruce was all show and dude got jacked in the face. I don't think Bruce is the best fighter... there are people that we've never seen that are more talented, but in terms of people who are in the spotlight, I think he'd win. I think he'd beat all of those MMA guys, too.

Obviously if he jack "some guy" in the face, then he can clearly beat actual proven fighters! After all, you only need a "fighter's mind" and "fighter's body"!

[RedBlackAttack]

This guy has a point. If all of Steven Seagal's tall tales were accepted as fact, he'd gone down as the biggest bad ass that ever walked the Earth.

Lee was an actor and martial artist. His fighting record is virtually nonexistent outside of 'stories' and anecdotes.
http://i45.tinypic.com/2wfiqko.jpg

[Vragrant]

That would be Alexander Karelin.

He was a monster, too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfDDXpjFtP0

Damn this guy is a beast. He almost doesn't look human, like he could have been in the Avengers. Some these guys can't even move him.

[DonDadda59]

http://i45.tinypic.com/2wfiqko.jpg

:oldlol:

Man, the stories this guy tellls... almost as hilarious as his real life escapades.

Steven Seagal vs The Mob (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html)

And as mentioned earlier...

Steven Seagal shits where he sleeps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuqpR7BK3M0)

The man is the gift that keeps on giving.

[RedBlackAttack]

Damn this guy is a beast. He almost doesn't look human, like he could have been in the Avengers. Some these guys can't even move him.
He was undefeated at the absolute highest levels of Greco Roman wrestling for 13 years... That included three gold medals at the Olympics (1988, 92 and 96). That move that you see him do in the video where he picks guys up and throws them across his body onto their heads/backs is something that he invented... called the Karelin Lift. You probably will never see it performed on that level of competition again.

Largely considered the greatest Greco-Roman wrestler to ever live.

[Legend of Josh]

Who cares? That would be basically finding out who the most well known fighter is.

It's not that anyone cares or not... it's more as if that's all we really have to go on without our minds wandering and being highly speculative. You can claim X fighters is the greatest ever, and I can claim X fighter, then someone else chime in a vise versa; then round-n-round we go.

I'm not trying to claim as FACT BL was the greatest ever... just saying it's a possibility (yet unlikely, just as I've claimed before in here). However, you, and others who share your opinion, are making claims there's no doubt whatsoever BL was not one of the greatest, much less the greatest. I have to ask you, how do you know this FOR FACT exactly? You don't.

[RedBlackAttack]

:oldlol:

Man, the stories this guy tellls... almost as hilarious as his real life escapades.

Steven Seagal vs The Mob (http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/scams/steven_seagal/index.html)

And as mentioned earlier...

Steven Seagal shits where he sleeps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuqpR7BK3M0)

The man is the gift that keeps on giving.
:roll:

I had never heard the story about Seagal being subbed and sh!tting himself. That is priceless.

A few weeks ago on Howard Stern, someone from Saturday Night Live was on... I don't remember exactly who... Maybe David Spade.


He said that when Seagal hosted, he had an encounter with him that went something like this...

Seagal: "I just read the most amazing movie script that... I have ever read."

Spade: "Oh, yeah? Who wrote it."

Seagal: "I did."

:oldlol:

[bmd]

It's not that anyone cares or not... it's more as if that's all we really have to go on without our minds wandering and being highly speculative. You can claim X fighters is the greatest ever, and I can claim X fighter, then someone else chime in a vise versa; then round-n-round we go.

I'm not trying to claim as FACT BL was the greatest ever... just saying it's a possibility (yet unlikely, just as I've claimed before in here). However, you, and others who share your opinion, are making claims there's no doubt whatsoever BL was not one of the greatest, much less the greatest. I have to ask you, how do you know this FOR FACT exactly? You don't.We don't... because he's never proven it.

Why should I just assume that he is the best fighter?

How do you know that Steven Hawking isn't the best fighter ever?

How do we know that Jonah Hill isn't the greatest basketball player to ever live?

We don't know. Steven Hawking might be the best fighter ever and Jonah Hill might be better than MJ in basketball. We don't know.

So how in the world can somebody make those claims if they have literally ZERO proof of these things?

[bmd]

Just look at this video of Bruce Lee hitting a punching bag. Does this look like the greatest fighter to ever live in your opinion?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w


Here he is kicking a pad and then kicking a bag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfSJF5FDz1k


Now, after watching that, do you think he could kick a 300 pound bag to the ceiling. Note: the bag in that video is nowhere near 300 pounds.


Now watch Mike Tyson hit the heavy bag:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2rpfX7Gi6Y&feature=related


See the difference?

[Legend of Josh]

We don't... because he's never proven it.

Why should I just assume that he is the best fighter?

How do you know that Steven Hawking isn't the best fighter ever?

How do we know that Jonah Hill isn't the greatest basketball player to ever live?

We don't know. Steven Hawking might be the best fighter ever and Jonah Hill might be better than MJ in basketball. We don't know.

So how in the world can somebody make those claims if they have literally ZERO proof of these things?

I'm just simply trying to keep things realistic and using logical thinking and sound judgment. I'm not trying to equate apples and oranges in the mix tossing names around such as Stephen Hawking mentioned within the realm of "greatest fighters ever" ... I don't mean to disrespect, but really guy?

:facepalm

I get your point, but let's not get carried away and make outrageous claims to prove something. I get it, OK? No need to paint a picture of SMH comparisons and fruitless "get the point?!" mock-ups.

[DonDadda59]

:roll:

I had never heard the story about Seagal being subbed and sh!tting himself. That is priceless.

A few weeks ago on Howard Stern, someone from Saturday Night Live was on... I don't remember exactly who... Maybe David Spade.


He said that when Seagal hosted, he had an encounter with him that went something like this...

Seagal: "I just read the most amazing movie script that... I have ever read."

Spade: "Oh, yeah? Who wrote it."

Seagal: "Me."

:oldlol:

Truly a God amongst men :oldlol:

From the blog 'The ridiculousness of Steven Seagal':

7- His pathological lies/delusions

It would take a month to extensively list all of Seagal

[bmd]

I'm just simply trying to keep things realistic and using logical thinking and sound judgment. I'm not trying to equate apples and oranges in the mix tossing names around such as Stephen Hawking mentioned within the realm of "greatest fighters ever" ... I don't mean to disrespect, but really guy?

:facepalm

I get your point, but let's not get carried away and make outrageous claims to prove something. I get it, OK? No need to paint a picture of SMH comparisons and fruitless "get the point?!" mock-ups.I was showing that you are not using logical thinking and sound judgement.

We've never seen Bruce Lee spar, much less fight.

[Wally450]

Isaac Frost :lol

[Legend of Josh]

I was showing that you are not using logical thinking and sound judgement.

We've never seen Bruce Lee spar, much less fight.

... and I never said he was the greatest ever, either. I was basing things off of what public common perception is around the globe. It doesn't make it right or wrong. You make it seem like as if anyone who even remotely thinks of BL as a world class fighter is a straight up moron and needs to step up their shit (knowledge wise).

I understand you're a MMA dude, or you practice or are involved in that type of shit, but respectfully, it honestly doesn't exactly position you on some "elite" pedestal where everyone should bow down and say "whatever this guy says, believe it!"

I can't say if BL was one of the greatest ever, and you can't say he wasn't.

[dunksby]

This thread sucks, OP you are probably bored out of your mind. I mean why did you open this thread anyway? Cause of some argument you had with a moron in the dojo or something? I don't even see anybody here claiming Lee is the greatest ever yet you keep dragging this tired argument keep posting and trying to discredit them while they insist that they don't think BL is the greatest fighter ever.

[bmd]

... and I never said he was the greatest ever, either. I was basing things off of what public common perception is around the globe. It doesn't make it right or wrong. You make it seem like as if anyone who even remotely thinks of BL as a world class fighter is a straight up moron and needs to step up their shit (knowledge wise).

I understand you're a MMA dude, or you practice or are involved in that type of shit, but respectfully, it honestly doesn't exactly position you on some "elite" pedestal where everyone should bow down and say "whatever this guy says, believe it!"

I can't say if BL was one of the greatest ever, and you can't say he wasn't.Yes I can say that, because he never proved it. Can I say I'm the greatest basketball player ever if I've never proven it? No.

And I'm not an MMA guy. I like MMA, because I like martial arts in general. In fact, my uncle is a Sifu under Dan Inosanto (one of Bruce Lee's original students). He's written books on Jeet Kune Do and used to write for Bruce Lee Magazine.

I don't hate Bruce Lee at all. I don't like fairy tales when it comes to martial arts. People talk about Bruce Lee like some kind of god and it completely overshadows all of the other great martial artists and fighters out there.

People have huge misconceptions about martial arts. They watch kung-fu movies and listen to all of the Bruce Lee "feats" and think if somebody isn't kicking ass like Bruce Lee did in MOVIES then they aren't really all that good. They don't realize that real fights don't work that way.

Anyway, enough of my rant. My point is simply that there have been martial artists for a hundred years proving themselves in actual combat. Bruce Lee has done nothing to be worthy of the title of greatest fighter ever.

[Jackass18]

It's not that anyone cares or not... it's more as if that's all we really have to go on without our minds wandering and being highly speculative. You can claim X fighters is the greatest ever, and I can claim X fighter, then someone else chime in a vise versa; then round-n-round we go.

I'm not trying to claim as FACT BL was the greatest ever... just saying it's a possibility (yet unlikely, just as I've claimed before in here). However, you, and others who share your opinion, are making claims there's no doubt whatsoever BL was not one of the greatest, much less the greatest. I have to ask you, how do you know this FOR FACT exactly? You don't.

Well in that case, I could claim myself as the greatest fighter ever. There's a difference between being an actor, writing books, sparring, kicking a bag, training, etc. and actually competing against other well trained fighters. I'm just limiting the speculation and ruling out those who don't have documented proof of their fighting prowess. For all we know, there's some crazy guy out there who lives in a cave that's the greatest fighter ever, but without any kind of proof, then there's no reason to give such consideration.

[iamgine]

Bruce Lee

[G-Funk]

http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A1092/1092132/300_1092132.jpg

http://filmgordon.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/aahc018_8x10-no12muhammad-ali-posters.jpg

[Lebron23]

Trovador Ramos Sr. beat him in a sparring match. I think Gene Lebell also beat Bruce Lee.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Probably not. Still love Game of Death and Enter the Dragon :pimp:

[SilkkTheShocker]

http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A1092/1092132/300_1092132.jpg

http://filmgordon.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/aahc018_8x10-no12muhammad-ali-posters.jpg

Prime Tyson would have handed Ali his ass.

[bmd]

[QUOTE=iamgine]Bruce Lee

[RedBlackAttack]

Prime Tyson would have handed Ali his ass.
Ali was not the greatest fighter to ever live. Not the greatest boxer, either (or even close, really). But he was better than Tyson, who is hands down the most overrated athlete in modern sports history.

[bmd]

Ali was not the greatest fighter to ever live. Not the greatest boxer, either (or even close, really). But he was better than Tyson, who is hands down the most overrated athlete in modern sports history.How is he overrated?

[RedBlackAttack]

How is he overrated?
How is he not? People compare him to some of the greatest heavyweights to ever live and he was 3rd or 4th best of his own era. What were his most consequential wins? An overblown light heavyweight in Michael Spinks? A 40+ year old Larry Holmes? Trevor Berbick?

People love him because he spent his early years knocking guys senseless and that is really what the casual boxing fan wants to see. He was an intimidating figure with a ferocious style... But he was also a mental midget who never beat another truly great fighter in their prime and was thoroughly dominated in the biggest fights of his career.

Of course, I'm to believe that he peaked at 20 and that he was "never the same" after Cus died... Even though Cus died a lot earlier on in his professional career than most people realize. He gets more excuses and passes than any athlete ever.

The myth of Tyson is almost as bad as the myth of Lee... Except he, ya know... Actually competed as a fighter.

[bmd]

How is he not? People compare him to some of the greatest heavyweights to ever live and he was 3rd or 4th best of his own era. What were his most consequential wins? An overblown light heavyweight in Michael Spinks? A 40+ year old Larry Holmes? Trevor Berbick?

People love him because he spent his early years knocking guys senseless and that is really what the casual boxing fan wants to see. He was an intimidating figure with a ferocious style... But he was also a mental midget who never beat another truly great fighter in their prime and was thoroughly dominated in the biggest fights of his career.

Of course, I'm to believe that he peaked at 20 and that he was "never the same" after Cus died... Even though Cus died a lot earlier on in his professional career than most people realize. He gets more excuses and passes than any athlete ever.

The myth of Tyson is almost as bad as the myth of Lee... Except he, ya know... Actually competed as a fighter.Tyson started to not do as well after Rooney left. Then he was in jail for a few years.

Tyson never reached his full potential.

I think he is a little overrated... I think most people when talking about Tyson think "what if".

And I don't know enough about boxing during that time to say who he beat, but he defended his belts in 3 out of the 4 boxing organizations like 9 times in a row.

How would he not be fighting the best guys if he had almost all of the belts in the main organizations at his weight?

[RedBlackAttack]

Tyson started to not do as well after Rooney left. Then he was in jail for a few years.

Tyson never reached his full potential.

I think he is a little overrated... I think most people when talking about Tyson think "what if".

And I don't know enough about boxing during that time to say who he beat, but he defended his belts in 3 out of the 4 boxing organizations like 9 times in a row.

How would he not be fighting the best guys if he had almost all of the belts in the main organizations at his weight?
The greatest challenge to Tyson well prior to his being slaughtered by Buster Douglas was Evander Holyfield. That was the fight that everyone wanted to see pretty much the moment Holyfield moved to heavyweight in 1988... And even prior to his moving from cruiserweight.

Fact is, the heavyweight division that Tyson took by storm in the mid-80s was awful. The belts were scattered around and there wasn't a dominant fighter of the bunch.

I don't think that beating up the likes of Berbick, Tucker, Spinks and Bruno qualify as the type of wins that should elevate him to the kind of level that people like to discuss him in.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who was front and center cheering for Tyson during his heyday. Right up until the Lewis fight, I defended him when necessary. But there came a point where the way people talk about him didn't match with what he had actually done and proven as a fighter.

Yes, there was a time in the 1980s where he looked like a surefire all-time great heavyweight, but things took a sharp turn downwards and that also coincided with him fighting a better brand of fighter and the HW division becoming much more difficult.

He ranks below both Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield for sure and a strong argument could be made that Riddick Bowe is also above him from that era of fighters. Yet, we have posts saying that he would smash Ali if they fought. Possibly Ali's greatest attribute was his mind. He would have Tyson beaten before the fight even started, much the way he did to Sonny Liston (who was also a better fighter than Tyson).

It is just so odd to me the way that people make excuses for this guy. He lost his mentor. He left his best trainer. He was over-the-hill at 22. His jailtime killed his career.

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?

[bmd]

The greatest challenge to Tyson well prior to his being slaughtered by Buster Douglas was Evander Holyfield. That was the fight that everyone wanted to see pretty much the moment Holyfield moved to heavyweight in 1988... And even prior to his moving from cruiserweight.

Fact is, the heavyweight division that Tyson took by storm in the mid-80s was awful. The belts were scattered around and there wasn't a dominant fighter of the bunch.

I don't think that beating up the likes of Berbick, Tucker, Spinks and Bruno qualify as the type of wins that should elevate him to the kind of level that people like to discuss him in.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who was front and center cheering for Tyson during his heyday. Right up until the Lewis fight, I defended him when necessary. But there came a point where the way people talk about him didn't match with what he had actually done and proven as a fighter.

He ranks below both Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield for sure and a strong argument could be made that Riddick Bowe is also above him from that era of fighters. Yet, we have posts saying that he would smash Ali if they fought.

It is just so odd to me the way that people make excuses for this guy. He lost his mentor. He left his best trainer. He was over-the-hill at 22. His jailtime killed his career.

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?It could be that he wasn't as good as people believe... but it also could be those things really could have affected him greatly. We really don't know and it is up for interpretation.

Holyfield never fought Tyson before all the stuff Tyson went through.

As far as accomplishments, Holyfield accomplished more.

But if we are talking about pure boxing skills before Tyson went through all that stuff, we really don't know who would have won. It's up for debate.

Tyson didn't have a "prime" like most fighters have. Tyson came up FAST when he was too young, and got into trouble. He never truly reached his potential.

[Beebo]

http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A1092/1092132/300_1092132.jpg

http://filmgordon.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/aahc018_8x10-no12muhammad-ali-posters.jpg

Sugar ray robinson says hi

[RedBlackAttack]

Sugar ray robinson says hi
YES.

The true GOAT boxer. No hype. No "what ifs."

Just this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLWBVpL23k

73-1-1 at the height of his career, he beat 18 hall of fame fighters in his career, most of whom outweighed him by a wide margin, as he was a natural lightweight fighting huge middleweights and even light heavyweights.

[SilkkTheShocker]

The greatest challenge to Tyson well prior to his being slaughtered by Buster Douglas was Evander Holyfield. That was the fight that everyone wanted to see pretty much the moment Holyfield moved to heavyweight in 1988... And even prior to his moving from cruiserweight.

Fact is, the heavyweight division that Tyson took by storm in the mid-80s was awful. The belts were scattered around and there wasn't a dominant fighter of the bunch.

I don't think that beating up the likes of Berbick, Tucker, Spinks and Bruno qualify as the type of wins that should elevate him to the kind of level that people like to discuss him in.

Keep in mind that I'm a guy who was front and center cheering for Tyson during his heyday. Right up until the Lewis fight, I defended him when necessary. But there came a point where the way people talk about him didn't match with what he had actually done and proven as a fighter.

Yes, there was a time in the 1980s where he looked like a surefire all-time great heavyweight, but things took a sharp turn downwards and that also coincided with him fighting a better brand of fighter and the HW division becoming much more difficult.

He ranks below both Lennox Lewis and Evander Holyfield for sure and a strong argument could be made that Riddick Bowe is also above him from that era of fighters. Yet, we have posts saying that he would smash Ali if they fought. Possibly Ali's greatest attribute was his mind. He would have Tyson beaten before the fight even started, much the way he did to Sonny Liston (who was also a better fighter than Tyson).

It is just so odd to me the way that people make excuses for this guy. He lost his mentor. He left his best trainer. He was over-the-hill at 22. His jailtime killed his career.

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?


Love Riddick Bowe. Dude never gets the respect he deserves. My favorite boxer ever.

[bmd]

YES.

The true GOAT boxer. No hype. No "what ifs."

Just this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VLWBVpL23k

73-1-1 at the height of his career, he beat 18 hall of fame fighters in his career, most of whom outweighed him by a wide margin, as he was a natural lightweight fighting huge middleweights and even light heavyweights.Yeah, he was pretty awesome.

[Jackass18]

But he was better than Tyson, who is hands down the most overrated athlete in modern sports history.

Tebow has to be up there.

[tpols]

Could it be that maybe he just wasn't as good as people believe?
How wasnt he as good as people believed?

Inhuman strength benching 300+lbs at like 12 years old. Insane power, insane quickness and dexterity/footwork/bobbing/weaving, once in a generation type athlete.. he obviously had severe emotional and mental problems that once left unharnessed by a trainer/coach destroyed his track as a boxer.. no excuses, just what happened. He had the greatest physical tools for a boxer probably ever but needed people on his back to keep his head in the game.

[RedBlackAttack]

How wasnt he as good as people believed?

Inhuman strength benching 300+lbs at like 12 years old. Insane power, insane quickness and dexterity/footwork/bobbing/weaving, once in a generation type athlete.. he obviously had severe emotional and mental problems that once left unharnessed by a trainer/coach destroyed his track as a boxer.. no excuses, just what happened. He had the greatest physical tools for a boxer probably ever but needed people on his back to keep his head in the game.
We don't rate fighters on how they may have performed if it weren't for X, Y, and Z... We rate them based on what they actually did.

Hey, maybe the most gifted fighter of the 1990s is a guy that you've probably never even heard of... Ike Ibeabuchi. He was the first guy to ever beat David Tua when Tua was considered the best up-and-coming fighter in the world.

He also nearly separated Chris Byrd's head from his body with one punch...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8bP911HJr8#t=11m10

But, he was nuts and ended up going to jail for nearly killing a prostitute who he was sure was the devil (the actual devil, not just untrustworthy).

So, Ike doesn't get mentions in any "greatest ever" converstations. He had the size, strength and athleticism to compete with and possibly beat the likes of Lennox Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson, etc., but he never proved it in the ring and that is all that matters.

I honestly couldn't care less how much Tyson could bench or his measurables. Completely off-topic in this discussion.

For the record, saying that he had the greatest physical tools ever as a boxer is also a real stretch. Lennox Lewis was, what? 6-5 260 of muscle in his prime? With an incredible jab, fast hands and loads of power?

Roy Jones Jr. was a physical marvel... He arguably had the fastest hands in the sport and was the hardest puncher in the sport at the same time during the peak of his career.

Again... Tyson myths are just totally ridiculous.

[Legend of Josh]

Well in that case, I could claim myself as the greatest fighter ever. There's a difference between being an actor, writing books, sparring, kicking a bag, training, etc. and actually competing against other well trained fighters. I'm just limiting the speculation and ruling out those who don't have documented proof of their fighting prowess. For all we know, there's some crazy guy out there who lives in a cave that's the greatest fighter ever, but without any kind of proof, then there's no reason to give such consideration.

I keep hearing "he never proved it" ... and that's a fair point, but do you guys really think his entire existence is 95%+ overblown and exaggerated? I'm asking b/c some of you guys are coming across as if you have no belief he was much of anything, much less one of the greatest in the East, West, or anywhere for that matter.

I'm just stating in my own personal opinion, there's some legitimacy to the legend that is Bruce Lee. I can't prove it. If someone can disprove it, that'd be great, at least that way we can separate fact from fiction. Like I said before in this thread already, his "story" is just as significant to his rise and being placed in the history books as his actual raw fighting talent and ability.

I think the thread is interesting ... mainly b/c it's based off speculation. We could all sit here all day and say well Bruce Lee didn't do this, or he didn't fight these fights, didn't do this, or he did do that, etc... but there's no way to really know. It makes it all that much more interesting.

Some of you say he was a fraud, a phony and nothing even close to being one of the GOATs... and I don't claim he's a GOAT, but that there's possibly some legitimacy to his existence as being a historical GOAT. Does that make it fact, LOL, of course not, but just bc he never fought some "technical" fights you would have liked, doesn't automatically proclaim him a fake, phony, bullshiter, etc.

[bdreason]

I'm a huge Bruce Lee fan, but he has no claim to that title.

[bdreason]

And I love Tyson, but he's way overrated. Anyone who thinks he would beat Ali is delusional.

[DropStep]

Once these guys reach a certain level of success its hard to say who is the greatest fighter ever lived. There are tiers of fighter that have existed throughout history that we can debate as the best. Bruce Lee isnt in that tier. While he was an intelligent man and a physical specimen, Lee did promote himself by performing tricks and myths. If Bruce Lee was still alive Anderson Silva would be his favorite fighter.

I try to watch this video atleast once a week and it never fails to blow me away. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfbUlS2tpb8&feature=plcp Look at 3:39 then proceed to pick your jaw off the floor.

[bmd]

I keep hearing "he never proved it" ... and that's a fair point, but do you guys really think his entire existence is 95%+ overblown and exaggerated? I'm asking b/c some of you guys are coming across as if you have no belief he was much of anything, much less one of the greatest in the East, West, or anywhere for that matter.

I'm just stating in my own personal opinion, there's some legitimacy to the legend that is Bruce Lee. I can't prove it. If someone can disprove it, that'd be great, at least that way we can separate fact from fiction. Like I said before in this thread already, his "story" is just as significant to his rise and being placed in the history books as his actual raw fighting talent and ability.

I think the thread is interesting ... mainly b/c it's based off speculation. We could all sit here all day and say well Bruce Lee didn't do this, or he didn't fight these fights, didn't do this, or he did do that, etc... but there's no way to really know. It makes it all that much more interesting.

Some of you say he was a fraud, a phony and nothing even close to being one of the GOATs... and I don't claim he's a GOAT, but that there's possibly some legitimacy to his existence as being a historical GOAT. Does that make it fact, LOL, of course not, but just bc he never fought some "technical" fights you would have liked, doesn't automatically proclaim him a fake, phony, bullshiter, etc.I just watch this entire video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfSJF5FDz1k

And I can tell you from that that he is not the greatest fighter ever. I'm going to go as far as to say he actually looks like an amateur from that footage.

Then on top of that, he isn't fast or powerful like we were led to believe.

[iamgine]

I keep hearing "he never proved it" ... and that's a fair point, but do you guys really think his entire existence is 95%+ overblown and exaggerated? I'm asking b/c some of you guys are coming across as if you have no belief he was much of anything, much less one of the greatest in the East, West, or anywhere for that matter.

I'm just stating in my own personal opinion, there's some legitimacy to the legend that is Bruce Lee. I can't prove it. If someone can disprove it, that'd be great, at least that way we can separate fact from fiction. Like I said before in this thread already, his "story" is just as significant to his rise and being placed in the history books as his actual raw fighting talent and ability.

I think the thread is interesting ... mainly b/c it's based off speculation. We could all sit here all day and say well Bruce Lee didn't do this, or he didn't fight these fights, didn't do this, or he did do that, etc... but there's no way to really know. It makes it all that much more interesting.

Some of you say he was a fraud, a phony and nothing even close to being one of the GOATs... and I don't claim he's a GOAT, but that there's possibly some legitimacy to his existence as being a historical GOAT. Does that make it fact, LOL, of course not, but just bc he never fought some "technical" fights you would have liked, doesn't automatically proclaim him a fake, phony, bullshiter, etc.
Actually all it makes is a myth.

[AlphaWolf24]

http://l.yimg.com/ck/image/A1092/1092132/300_1092132.jpg

http://filmgordon.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/aahc018_8x10-no12muhammad-ali-posters.jpg


http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Sport/Pix/columnists/2009/11/10/1257866341469/Ali-v-Inoki-001.jpg

[Legend of Josh]

Actually all it makes is a myth.

... and you're saying your typical "myth" isn't interesting?

[AlphaWolf24]

1. Lee wasn't even close to the first. Why do you keep saying that? I posted something Teddy Roosevelt said from the turn of the century. Do you honestly think there wasn't thousands of others that didn't have similar thoughts as Teddy Roosevelt from the year 1900 until the 1960's when Bruce Lee was a young adult?

2. Oh, Royce Gracie never had any fights before UFC 1?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ZDKQHBOO8

3. Lee did know SOME submission grappling... but you are comparing him to Danny Hodge, a silver medalist Olympic wrestler who also knew submission grappling.

Catch wrestling is legit. Ever heard of Sakuraba or Josh Barnett?

1. recap: I never said LEE was the first

2. (I didn't watch the video...but I know I seen it a million times...he beats some random guy , maybe Jason D)You showing a video of Royce fighting in his own GYM vs some random "Kung FU Expert" makes him a "real fighter":lol

thank you..you proved my point .....(First you said LEE only fought in his GYM and never had any real fights..... that makes Gracie not a real fighter before UFC 1........so a "not a real fighter" beat a pro boxer and olympic wrestler.)

get back in my pocket kid.

3.Hodge didn't know any Jujitsu defense.....especially if he was in LEE's guard.


LEE wins by anything he wants.





































next

[AlphaWolf24]

Actually all it makes is a myth.


The little guy (old man and his sons) who climbed on you and choked larger men/pro boxers/wrestlers was a MYTH for 2 decades.....


until UFC 1

[bmd]

1. recap: I never said LEE was the first

2. (I didn't watch the video...but I know I seen it a million times...he beats some random guy , maybe Jason D)You showing a video of Royce fighting in his own GYM vs some random "Kung FU Expert" makes him a "real fighter":lol

thank you..you proved my point .....(First you said LEE only fought in his GYM and never had any real fights..... that makes Gracie not a real fighter before UFC 1........so a "not a real fighter" beat a pro boxer and olympic wrestler.)

get back in my pocket kid.

3.Hodge didn't know any Jujitsu defense.....especially if he was in LEE's guard.


LEE wins by anything he wants.





































next1. You said Lee was "one of the first". And that isn't even close to true.

2. It does make Royce a real fighter. He actually FOUGHT for real against another trained fighter. It doesn't matter that it was at his own gym.

I said you have to actually fight to be considered a fighter.

3. What the hell are you talking about? Even catch wrestling uses a guard. It's called a front body scissor. Every submission grappling art uses a form of the guard... BJJ, Judo, Sambo, catch wrestling, etc.

But anyway, the guard isn't the focus of Judo like it is in BJJ. I don't know why you keep acting like Bruce Lee had some amazing BJJ ground game off his back. He learned Judo sparingly over a 1 year period.

Most Judo players work on turtling and reversals. You aren't going to see a Judo player that has a decent guard unless they are very advanced. A beginner like Bruce wouldn't know much at all about the guard like a beginning BJJ player would. Bruce wouldn't have been learning newaza.

There is not a chance in hell he would be able to out-grapple and submit a bigger, and incredible, submission wrestler like Danny Hodge.

I don't think you know how good that guy was. The trophy that the NCAA wrestler of the year gets is called the "Danny Hodge Trophy".

[spree43]

If Bruce Lee got in a time machine and travelled to today from his prime he wouldn't make it onto the UFC roster. THe worst fighter at 135lbs would destroy him.

If he went to thailand and fought muay thai guys they would all beat him up.

We all think he looks so fast, but every pro his size moves so much faster, he is only a little guy. On top of that even his standup technique wasn't great, let alone the fact that he had white belt level bjj and limited wrestling experience.

You have to understand that these fighters have been fighting since they were kids in one discipline or another and have been training hours every day.

Bruce Lee was a child acting star in Hong Kong, then he took up Kung Fu in his teens and kept acting and then spent limited time studying other martial arts. He wrote some books about martial arts philosophy that sold well because of his fame as an actor but the principals were not his own but that rather taken from well known martial artists such as musashi (who Lee was basically directly quoting when talking about being like water" and who taught learning all disciplines of martial arts.

Martial Arts wouldn't be what it is today without Bruce Lee, but he is in no way an accomplished fighter nor has he really proven to have skills to even remotely match those of professional fighters.

[AlphaWolf24]

1. You said Lee was "one of the first". And that isn't even close to true.

2. It does make Royce a real fighter. He actually FOUGHT for real against another trained fighter. It doesn't matter that it was at his own gym.

I said you have to actually fight to be considered a fighter.

3. What the hell are you talking about? Even catch wrestling uses a guard. It's called a front body scissor. Every submission grappling art uses a form of the guard... BJJ, Judo, Sambo, catch wrestling, etc.

But anyway, the guard isn't the focus of Judo like it is in BJJ. I don't know why you keep acting like Bruce Lee had some amazing BJJ ground game off his back. He learned Judo sparingly over a 1 year period.

Most Judo players work on turtling and reversals. You aren't going to see a Judo player that has a decent guard unless they are very advanced. A beginner like Bruce wouldn't know much at all about the guard like a beginning BJJ player would. Bruce wouldn't have been learning newaza.

There is not a chance in hell he would be able to out-grapple and submit a bigger, and incredible, submission wrestler like Danny Hodge.

I don't think you know how good that guy was. The trophy that the NCAA wrestler of the year gets is called the "Danny Hodge Trophy".


1. I said Lee was one of the first to cross train and document each diciplines value...wich he was. ( of course you will disagree and give no evidence of 5 people before LEE documenting multiple arts value:rolleyes: )

2. You never said what your criteria was to be a real "fighter"...all you said was LEE was a Martial artist not a "real fighter"....then you stated that a olympic wrestler was a real fighter , and a pro boxer was a real fighter....

when I called you on it about Gracie, you then Flip Flopped again and said "Gracie was a real Fighter because he really fought in his Gym"...you then said LEE never fought in a gym??....


Lee defeated three-time Hong Kong Inter-School amateur boxing champion Gary Elms by way of knockout in the third round in the 1958 Hong Kong Inter-School amateur Boxing Championships held between 12 Hong Kong schools. Lee used Wing Chun traps and high/low-level straight punches.[


Lee "fights" in a Gym

[QUOTE]The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds

[bmd]

1. I said Lee was one of the first to cross train and document each diciplines value...wich he was. ( of course you will disagree and give no evidence of 5 people before LEE documenting multiple arts value:rolleyes: )1. Let me start off by saying that you are talking complete bullshit out of your ass. The ancient greeks used to combine boxing and wrestling for a sport they called Pankration. Masahiko Kimura was a Japanese judoka who also learned Karate to become a complete martial artist. Even ****ing Teddy Roosevelt wrote about cross-training as I showed on a previous page. He practiced boxing, wrestling, and judo. He wrote about the advantages of learning multiple disciplines.

How about Jon Bluming? He was born in 1933 in Holland. He practiced Judo and Karate and Thai boxing. He said, "What I teach is neither Kodokan judo nor Kyokushin Kai karate but instead a mix of one-third karate and Thai boxing, one-third throwing techniques — I teach seven different throws — and one-third groundwork. That altogether is the full circle of unarmed fighting. That is not arrogant, that is the truth."

Kanji Inoki practiced Karate and Wrestling, and it most well-known for his match against Muhammad Ali in Japan.

And I already mentioned Danny Hodge.

Those were just some names I know off the top of my head.

Cross-training has been around since the beginning of time.

And Bruce Lee trained Judo with Gene LeBell for about 1 YEAR. It isn't like he trained extensively in a grappling art and made it a point to become a complete martial artist. So stop acting like Bruce Lee was the first mixed martial artist or something.

So let's recap:

Ancient Greeks:
http://www.surfersam.com/articles/mma-mixed-martial-arts-fighting/pankration.jpg

Masahiko Kimura:
http://judoinfo.com/images/kimura24.jpg

Teddy Roosevelt:
http://neutralcorneronline.com/boxing-history/files/2012/02/teddy.jpg

Jon Bluming:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_dEef4hvSUjE/S4rd00i0yaI/AAAAAAAABG4/U-pWb_9ZlAE/s320/JON+BLUMING+KODOKAN.jpg

Kanji Inoki:
http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2008/0302/box_a_inoki_600.jpg

Danny Hodge:
http://www.examiner.com/images/blog/EXID7334/images/Dan_Hodge_vs_Gary_Kurdelmeier_Iowa_jpg.jpg




2. You never said what your criteria was to be a real "fighter"...all you said was LEE was a Martial artist not a "real fighter"....then you stated that a olympic wrestler was a real fighter , and a pro boxer was a real fighter....

when I called you on it about Gracie, you then Flip Flopped again and said "Gracie was a real Fighter because he really fought in his Gym"...you then said LEE never fought in a gym??....2. Now you are just making stuff up. I said in order to be a fighter, you have to actually fight. Danny Hodge is a real fighter because HE ACTUALLY FOUGHT. His boxing record is 17-0 amateur with 12 KO's, 8-2 professional. That is why he's a real fighter.

You said, and I'm paraphrasing, "Was Royce Gracie a real fighter before UFC 1? Yes or no?". Then I said YES, because he actually had a fist fight applying his martial arts training. I even posted the video.

I then said there is no proof that Bruce Lee fought EVER.





Lee "fights" in a Gym

The match took place at YMCA's handball court, with Glover as the referee and Ed Hart as the time keeper.[49] Lee wore street clothes and used a Wing Chun stance while his opponent wore a gi and used a karate stance.[49] According to Glover, Lee used his right forearm to deflect an initial kick from the man and simultaneously landed a left punch to the face.[49] Lee deflected more punches using the forearm, controlling the center line and landed more punches to the man's face until he was against the wall.[49] The man attempted to grab Lee's arms, which Lee responded by a double fist punch to the face and chest, followed by a kick to the nose, which produced a nosebleed and a knockout, at which time Glover stopped the fight.[49] Taki Kamura said the fight lasted 10 seconds.[50] Ed Hart stated "the fight lasted exactly 11 seconds – I know because I was the time keeper – and Bruce had hit the guy something like 15 times and kicked him once. I thought he'd killed him



In Oakland, California in 1964 at Chinatown, Lee had a controversial private match with Wong Jack Man, a direct student of Ma Kin Fung known for his mastery of Xingyiquan, Northern Shaolin, and T'ai chi ch'uan. According to Lee, the Chinese community issued an ultimatum to him to stop teaching non-Chinese. When he refused to comply, he was challenged to a combat match with Wong. The arrangement was that if Lee lost, he would have to shut down his school; while if he won, then Lee would be free to teach Caucasians or anyone else.[44] Wong denied this, stating that he requested to fight Lee after Lee issued an open challenge during one of Lee's demonstrations at a Chinatown theatre, and that Wong himself did not discriminate against Caucasians or other non-Chinese.[51] Lee commented, "That paper had all the names of the sifu from Chinatown, but they don't scare me".[52]

Individuals known to have witnessed the match included Cadwell, James Lee (Bruce Lee's associate, no relation), and William Chen, a teacher of T'ai chi ch'uan. Wong and witness William Chen stated that the fight lasted an unusually long 20–25 minutes.[51] According to Bruce Lee, Linda Lee Cadwell, and James Yimm Lee, the fight lasted 3 minutes with a decisive victory for Lee. "The fight ensued, it was a no-holds-barred fight, it took three minutes. Bruce got this guy down to the ground and said 'do you give up?' and the man said he gave up" – Linda Lee Cadwell.[


another fight in a GYM...HAHAHAHA... and now you are posting STORIES copied and pasted from Wikipedia. Even checking on Wikipedia, it says right above that "fight history" that those sources are unreliable.




I have seen and read that Lee knows some basic shoulder/arm locks from his back....enough to submit a wrestler with no defense.




Go away KID..you sound ignorant:lol3. Danny Hodge was a submisson wrestler... why do you keep saying he has no submision defense? Plus, there isn't a chance in hell a 130 pound beginner in JUDO (not even brazilian jiu jitsu), is going to be able to submit a 220 pound Olympic wrestler who is also trained in submission grappling. ESPECIALLY when Bruce never trained Judo with somebody punching him in the face.

It's a completely different ballgame then. PLUS, beginning Judo does not deal with landing submissions from off of your back. What you are suggesting is that Gene LeBell was teaching Bruce newaza... which shows you are ignorant on martial arts.

[bmd]

If Bruce Lee got in a time machine and travelled to today from his prime he wouldn't make it onto the UFC roster. THe worst fighter at 135lbs would destroy him.

If he went to thailand and fought muay thai guys they would all beat him up.

We all think he looks so fast, but every pro his size moves so much faster, he is only a little guy. On top of that even his standup technique wasn't great, let alone the fact that he had white belt level bjj and limited wrestling experience.

You have to understand that these fighters have been fighting since they were kids in one discipline or another and have been training hours every day.

Bruce Lee was a child acting star in Hong Kong, then he took up Kung Fu in his teens and kept acting and then spent limited time studying other martial arts. He wrote some books about martial arts philosophy that sold well because of his fame as an actor but the principals were not his own but that rather taken from well known martial artists such as musashi (who Lee was basically directly quoting when talking about being like water" and who taught learning all disciplines of martial arts.

Martial Arts wouldn't be what it is today without Bruce Lee, but he is in no way an accomplished fighter nor has he really proven to have skills to even remotely match those of professional fighters.This is spot on. :applause:

[9erempiree]

The real reason why Bruce Lee held very little fights because martial arts was a discipline back in those days and to some degree it still is. It wasn't a global sport like it is today.

Back in the days, you never wanted to use what you learn to hurt a guy unless he was another avid martial artist and even at that, the two would never tango unless challenged.

They were more street oriented fighters who can kill a guy or physically hurt their opponents.

This isn't UFC where you put guys in arm bars and stuff like that. Those guys were much deadlier back in the days.

It was a discipline to help you control yourself. Using force is the last resort but if Lee wanted to use what he learned and use that against a fighter...he would hold his own based off of his speed and he was really a genetic freak. Those in the bodybuilding industry praise Bruce for his proportions. The man had a great physique and strength to add.

http://www.bruceleefansite.com/images/brucelee62.jpg

http://www.bruceleefansite.com/images/brucelee70.jpg

Name any 135-pounder looking like Bruce with speed and power.

[bmd]

The real reason why Bruce Lee held very little fights because martial arts was a discipline back in those days and to some degree it still is. It wasn't a global sport like it is today.

Back in the days, you never wanted to use what you learn to hurt a guy unless he was another avid martial artist and even at that, the two would never tango unless challenged.

They were more street oriented fighters who can kill a guy or physically hurt their opponents.

This isn't UFC where you put guys in arm bars and stuff like that. Those guys were much deadlier back in the days.

It was a discipline to help you control yourself. Using force is the last resort but if Lee wanted to use what he learned and use that against a fighter...he would hold his own based off of his speed and he was really a genetic freak. Those in the bodybuilding industry praise Bruce for his proportions. The man had a great physique and strength to add.

Name any 135-pounder looking like Bruce with speed and power.This is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE myth. Your whole post.

Martial arts hasn't changed since the UFC. I mean, it has changed, but the techniques haven't. Only the way that the techniques are applied and transitioned between the different martial arts. The UFC was helpful at displaying what works, and what doesn't, and how to seamlessly transition between different techniques and fighting disciplines in an actual fight. Armbars weren't just invented for use in the UFC. Armbars have always been a part of Judo, Japanese Jiu Jitsu, and back all the way back to ancient wrestling.

Armbars have always been a legitimate technique. On the street, there is no tapping. An armbar can snap your arm in half. Like this:

http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/SNAP.gif

http://extras.inyork.com/yorkblog/mma/armbreak.gif


Bruce Lee's speed is greatly exaggerated. Just take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

Looks pretty normal there... doesn't he?

And Lee's physique was decent. He had very low body fat, but not a ton of muscle. Which is fine for a fighter. But he isn't special in that regard. As a martial artist, you SHOULD be in shape. His physique wouldn't be out of the ordinary in the UFC...

Here is Jose Aldo... he fights at 145 pounds:

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/3870107/Jose-Aldo_large.jpg

His physique is more impressive because his body fat is just as low, and he has more muscle.

And he is somebody who actually fights. He actually trains and is prepared to get punched in the face. He's prepared to get cut and bleed. He's prepared to fight with a broken hand. He's been kicked in the legs, the ribs, the face. Not fighting in movies. Not having silly fights at the YMCA handball court. I'm talking about fighting the best fighters in the world:

http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jose-aldo_rolando-perez.gif

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/579178/aldotkoschrismickle.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9lFnD6GVl4I/TTioSoxYhYI/AAAAAAAAACc/KLWXG5Nc5as/s1600/Aldo+GIF+Swanson+1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9lFnD6GVl4I/TTiOmnMgffI/AAAAAAAAACU/Fsof91CVdNk/s1600/Aldo+GIF+Gamburyan+2.gif

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/829129/Jose_Aldo_vs._Mark_Hominick_1.gif

http://cache.sharenxs.com/images/wz/cabc/ac/ab/bf/aa/AldoMendesII.gif

Jose Aldo would murder Bruce Lee.

[dunksby]

Did Bruce Lee shit on OP's granddad in a fight or what?

[9erempiree]

Tommy Carruthers, famous JKD master, this is the stuff that Bruce was teaching people and this guy mastered it.

Tell me he can't fight? His hand speed and foot speed is equivalent to that of Bruce and you going to tell me he can't fight because he's never fought as a sport. Many martial arts masters never fought, so does that mean we should train with them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvONrsa9Rvs

[Legend of Josh]

I think if Bruce Lee could do the "dem-mak" ... "def touch" ... which I'm sure he can bc hell, he's (or was) Bruce Lee, then surely, he could have defeated Frank Dux.

So having said that, Bruce Lee could have probably done the def touch (dem-mak) on just about any opponent... including all your'z beloved Chuck Norris (who is fitness workout machine seller for God sakes), or any other past or present fighter.

[9erempiree]

This is a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE myth. Your whole post.

Martial arts hasn't changed since the UFC. I mean, it has changed, but the techniques haven't. Only the way that the techniques are applied and transitioned between the different martial arts. The UFC was helpful at displaying what works, and what doesn't, and how to seamlessly transition between different techniques and fighting disciplines in an actual fight. Armbars weren't just invented for use in the UFC. Armbars have always been a part of Judo, Japanese Jiu Jitsu, and back all the way back to ancient wrestling.

Armbars have always been a legitimate technique. On the street, there is no tapping. An armbar can snap your arm in half. Like this:

http://cdn2.cagepotato.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/SNAP.gif

http://extras.inyork.com/yorkblog/mma/armbreak.gif


Bruce Lee's speed is greatly exaggerated. Just take a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

Looks pretty normal there... doesn't he?

And Lee's physique was decent. He had very low body fat, but not a ton of muscle. Which is fine for a fighter. But he isn't special in that regard. As a martial artist, you SHOULD be in shape. His physique wouldn't be out of the ordinary in the UFC...

Here is Jose Aldo... he fights at 145 pounds:

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/entry_photo_images/3870107/Jose-Aldo_large.jpg

His physique is more impressive because his body fat is just as low, and he has more muscle.

And he is somebody who actually fights. He actually trains and is prepared to get punched in the face. He's prepared to get cut and bleed. He's prepared to fight with a broken hand. He's been kicked in the legs, the ribs, the face. Not fighting in movies. Not having silly fights at the YMCA handball court. I'm talking about fighting the best fighters in the world:

http://www.fightreport.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/jose-aldo_rolando-perez.gif

http://cdn1.sbnation.com/imported_assets/579178/aldotkoschrismickle.gif

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_9lFnD6GVl4I/TTioSoxYhYI/AAAAAAAAACc/KLWXG5Nc5as/s1600/Aldo+GIF+Swanson+1.gif

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9lFnD6GVl4I/TTiOmnMgffI/AAAAAAAAACU/Fsof91CVdNk/s1600/Aldo+GIF+Gamburyan+2.gif

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/829129/Jose_Aldo_vs._Mark_Hominick_1.gif

http://cache.sharenxs.com/images/wz/cabc/ac/ab/bf/aa/AldoMendesII.gif

Jose Aldo would murder Bruce Lee.


You have to remember those guys you mentioned are sport fighters and there is no difference between them and their peers.

Bruce Lee was way ahead of his time.

It's the same with basketball players. MJ, Wilt and Lebron are guys that are heads and shoulders above their peers. They are not just another fighter or player like Bird, Russel or Duncan.

[Clippersfan86]

You guys are ignorant if you don't think a guy with Bruce's INSANE work ethic would adapt to the times and become a fantastic fighter if not the best in his weight class. He was one of the most unique, rare physical specimens in recorded history. This is a 135 pound guy that could CURL 95 pounds. Do 500 straight 1 finger pushups etc.

This is like when people compare 70's basketball to now. "Oh they can't dribble with their left hand" etc. Well don't you think with modern medicine and training they would adapt and be great? I do. The greatest fighter who ever lived is probably one who don't know of or that never was famous. Bruce may not be the originator of MMA with the Romans but he WAS the first person who was that famous to really expose it to the mainstream which is why many MMA fighters list him as a founder or inspiration.

If you read Bruce's books you'll see his beliefs were very much the same as modern MMA fighters. Cross train in multiple styles and use any tactic to win. He even flat out says to win a fight he wouldn't hesitate to twist somebody's groin or bite them. Dude was a fiery and fierce son of a bitch.

[DaHeezy]

Bruce Lee may not be the greatest P4P fighter of all-time, but I'll say probably the most important fighter of all-time

[bmd]

Tommy Carruthers, famous JKD master, this is the stuff that Bruce was teaching people and this guy mastered it.

Tell me he can't fight? His hand speed and foot speed is equivalent to that of Bruce and you going to tell me he can't fight because he's never fought as a sport. Many martial arts masters never fought, so does that mean we should train with them?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvONrsa9RvsI'm not going to say he can't fight... because I have never seen him fight.

But to be 100% honest, a lot of what he is doing is 100% bullshit. All of that trapping he is doing is a bunch of non-sense. Trapping came from Wing-Chun, and that stuff does not work in a real fight.

I'd be highly skeptical of somebody who advocates trapping like he is doing. If he sparred in a realistic manner, he would find out very quickly how his hand trapping is non-sense.

This leads me to believe that he doesn't spar like a boxer or mixed martial artist, which leads me to question his actual fighting ability.

Against some random guy on the street, I'm sure he could win the fight. But against a trained fighter of any sort who spars, I'd have serious doubts.

P.S... I know who Tommy Carruthers is and he is faster than anything I've seen Bruce do.

[bmd]

You have to remember those guys you mentioned are sport fighters and there is no difference between them and their peers.

Bruce Lee was way ahead of his time.

It's the same with basketball players. MJ, Wilt and Lebron are guys that are heads and shoulders above their peers. They are not just another fighter or player like Bird, Russel or Duncan.What you are saying makes no sense. There are guys in MMA who are head and shoulders above their peers. Ever heard of Anderson Silva?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_XgUh-2vXAbs/TU4xkCmiDzI/AAAAAAAABD8/TQz11Td_1tA/s1600/2.gif

http://i47.tinypic.com/w7klk.gif

Also, yes, they are sport fighters... but so what? First off, fighting for sport isn't that different from fighting with no rules. It is only some slight modification. Secondly, a lot of these fighters, especially the Brazilian fighters, came up on the Vale Tudo circuit, which is NO RULES fighting. Often they are bare knuckle fights.

[bmd]

You guys are ignorant if you don't think a guy with Bruce's INSANE work ethic would adapt to the times and become a fantastic fighter if not the best in his weight class. He was one of the most unique, rare physical specimens in recorded history. This is a 135 pound guy that could CURL 95 pounds. Do 500 straight 1 finger pushups etc.

This is like when people compare 70's basketball to now. "Oh they can't dribble with their left hand" etc. Well don't you think with modern medicine and training they would adapt and be great? I do. The greatest fighter who ever lived is probably one who don't know of or that never was famous. Bruce may not be the originator of MMA with the Romans but he WAS the first person who was that famous to really expose it to the mainstream which is why many MMA fighters list him as a founder or inspiration.

If you read Bruce's books you'll see his beliefs were very much the same as modern MMA fighters. Cross train in multiple styles and use any tactic to win. He even flat out says to win a fight he wouldn't hesitate to twist somebody's groin or bite them. Dude was a fiery and fierce son of a bitch.Do you have a source for him curling 95 pounds or doing 500 straight 1 finger push ups? Of course you don't. It is just another myth.

And LOL at "the greatest fighter who ever lived is probably one who don't know of or that never was famous." :roll:

That is like saying the greatest basketball player who ever lived is somebody we've never heard of. It's not Michael Jordan, or LeBron James, or Wilt. It's some unknown guy playing on the playgrounds.

And you have to remember... Bruce Lee was an actor. Do you honestly think the greatest fighter of all-time is somebody who spent a lot of his time working on movie sets, going over scripts, travelling all over the world, being a stunt man, etc?

Or is it more likely that the best fighter in the world is somebody who trains to actually fight for 5 hours a day, 6 days a week? Somebody who spars with other fighters. And then actually fights against other trained fighters and black belts several times a year?

Which one do you think is a better fighter? It's just simple logic.

[Clippersfan86]

Do you have a source for him curling 95 pounds or doing 500 straight 1 finger push ups? Of course you don't. It is just another myth.

And LOL at "the greatest fighter who ever lived is probably one who don't know of or that never was famous." :roll:

That is like saying the greatest basketball player who ever lived is somebody we've never heard of. It's not Michael Jordan, or LeBron James, or Wilt. It's some unknown guy playing on the playgrounds.

And you have to remember... Bruce Lee was an actor. Do you honestly think the greatest fighter of all-time is somebody who spent a lot of his time working on movie sets, going over scripts, travelling all over the world, being a stunt man, etc?

Or is it more likely that the best fighter in the world is somebody who trains to actually fight for 5 hours a day, 6 days a week? Somebody who spars with other fighters. And then actually fights against other trained fighters and black belts several times a year?

Which one do you think is a better fighter? It's just simple logic.

I think you live in a small box mentally. What if the greatest fighter was from the 1800's when fighting on TV/Youtube didn't exist? Just as much as I don't know for sure, neither do you. The argument of "He would be discovered" is ignorant because it's not set that it would have been in the 2000's. My point was... the TV age has now been what 60 years? Statistics and odds tell me that the GOAT fighter probably lived in the thousands of years of humanity prior to that.

[9erempiree]

I think you live in a small box mentally. What if the greatest fighter was from the 1800's when fighting on TV/Youtube didn't exist? Just as much as I don't know for sure, neither do you. The argument of "He would be discovered" is ignorant because it's not set that it would have been in the 2000's. My point was... the TV age has now been what 60 years? Statistics and odds tell me that the GOAT fighter probably lived in the thousands of years of humanity prior to that.


this.

Basically there was some warrior back in the days that took out an entire clan.

What if a Braveheart or Gladiator existed back in the days?

To say Lee can't fight with very little footage doesn't mean he can't. Like I said earlier, it's a discipline to learn martial arts.

Now people do it just to fight so the art of it may have been lost.

If Brock Lesnar can train to fight....imagine Bruce Lee, who wrote an entire manuscript on MMA would do.

[Clippersfan86]

this.

Basically there was some warrior back in the days that took out an entire clan.

What if a Braveheart or Gladiator existed back in the days?

To say Lee can't fight with very little footage doesn't mean he can't. Like I said earlier, it's a discipline to learn martial arts.

Now people do it just to fight so the art of it may have been lost.

If Brock Lesnar can train to fight....imagine Bruce Lee, who wrote an entire manuscript on MMA would do.

Exactly. Military groups and in general fighting technique taught is still implementing things ancient warriors used so to imply the best would be living now without doubt is downright stupid and ignorant.

I agree Bruce Lee with modern training would be such a freaking animal. Both MMA fighters and bodybuilders look to him for inspiration.

[Jackass18]

I think you live in a small box mentally. What if the greatest fighter was from the 1800's when fighting on TV/Youtube didn't exist?

It's highly doubtful. Too many things are better nowadays. Why even consider someone nobody knows about? What's the point? What if there's some space alien from planet hfgiahugijhiofhs that could easily destroy all of us humans under a second? Who gives a shit? We don't know anything about them. You go with what you have actual evidence of. Myths, legends and stories are all cute and all, but they're without legitimacy.

[magictricked]

this.

Basically there was some warrior back in the days that took out an entire clan.

What if a Braveheart or Gladiator existed back in the days?

To say Lee can't fight with very little footage doesn't mean he can't. Like I said earlier, it's a discipline to learn martial arts.

Now people do it just to fight so the art of it may have been lost.

If Brock Lesnar can train to fight....imagine Bruce Lee, who wrote an entire manuscript on MMA would do.

OP seems to be penalizing Lee for not being part of events that were not really being practiced at his time. To say Lee can't or couldn't is no different than than those who exaggerate his skills.

Lee was clearly a very talented and driven individual on many layers. I'm not even sure what point the OP is trying to make to be honest.

Not saying the OP has made a worthless thread, I'm just not sure where he meant it to go

[bmd]

I think you live in a small box mentally. What if the greatest fighter was from the 1800's when fighting on TV/Youtube didn't exist? Just as much as I don't know for sure, neither do you. The argument of "He would be discovered" is ignorant because it's not set that it would have been in the 2000's. My point was... the TV age has now been what 60 years? Statistics and odds tell me that the GOAT fighter probably lived in the thousands of years of humanity prior to that.Highly doubtful. Everything has improved leaps and bounds.

You seem to forget that fighting is mostly an athletic event. I have seen TONS of fighters who have superior skills lose to less talented fighters simply because the less talented fighter was in better shape.

Look at the Olympics, since they are relevant right now. What you are saying is that the fastest runner ever was most likely from ancient Greece or something because running on TV/Youtube didn't exist.

Highly unlikely, to almost impossible. The training today is leaps and bounds better than what it was, and there are more outlets for the best people at a particular sport to train in that sport for a living.

Fighting and martial arts in general has improved immensely since UFC 1... because now we know what actually works in a real fight and what doesn't. Techniques have been modified, and the skills and strategies have advanced.

It's like the difference between watching basketball in the early 1900's when the scores would be like 10-8 compared to the 70's and 80's when the scores would be 100-88.

Fighting has improved greatly since just the early 90's... much less the 1950s or 1800's.

[bmd]

this.

Basically there was some warrior back in the days that took out an entire clan.

What if a Braveheart or Gladiator existed back in the days?

To say Lee can't fight with very little footage doesn't mean he can't. Like I said earlier, it's a discipline to learn martial arts.

Now people do it just to fight so the art of it may have been lost.

If Brock Lesnar can train to fight....imagine Bruce Lee, who wrote an entire manuscript on MMA would do.You either watch too many movies, or have a very imaginative mind. I don't know where you got this fantasy that somebody who trains in martial arts turns into some super-human who can take out and "entire clan", but things like that are simply fiction and fantasy.

And Bruce Lee never wrote an "entire manuscript on MMA". It seems like you really don't know anything about Bruce Lee, and are simply repeating things you have heard somewhere before, no matter how wrong it is.

And about Brock Lesnar... he has been a wrestler his whole life. He was an NCAA champion with an undefeated record. Wrestling is a martial art, even if it isn't one of the traditional martial arts from Japan or China that people picture in their minds.

So Brock Lesnar has actually had a good base for fighting before he ever got into MMA. His problem was that he didn't improve the rest of his skills enough, and several fighters beat him pretty bad in a row. And then he retired. But talk about Brock Lesnar is kind of beside the point.

[KDTrey5]

man that niggeh niice

[bmd]

Exactly. Military groups and in general fighting technique taught is still implementing things ancient warriors used so to imply the best would be living now without doubt is downright stupid and ignorant.

I agree Bruce Lee with modern training would be such a freaking animal. Both MMA fighters and bodybuilders look to him for inspiration.This is ridiculous. Humans have been boxing since ancient times, but look at a boxing match then and look at a boxing match now, and they are worlds different. The techniques have been modified after years and years of actual boxing competition.

MMA is no different. After years and years of implementing martial arts techniques inside of the ring or cage, the techniques have been modified after the trial and error of actual fighting competition.

And why are you talking about military groups? You know what our own military uses for hand to hand combat? Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Muay Thai, Boxing, etc... the same things that are used in MMA.

And bodybuilders don't look to Bruce Lee for inspiration, lol... Bruce Lee was tiny.

Bodybuilders look up to guys like Ronnie Coleman, Arnold, Lou Ferrigno, Eugen Sandow, Frank Zane, Larry Scott, etc.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Enter the Dragon was the shit

[bmd]

OP seems to be penalizing Lee for not being part of events that were not really being practiced at his time. To say Lee can't or couldn't is no different than than those who exaggerate his skills.

Lee was clearly a very talented and driven individual on many layers. I'm not even sure what point the OP is trying to make to be honest.

Not saying the OP has made a worthless thread, I'm just not sure where he meant it to goFirst off, this discussion can go anywhere. My overall point is to those who treat Bruce Lee like a god... like Michael Jordan. Except, Michael Jordan actually proved himself on the basketball court.

Bruce Lee has not proven his fighting ability.

So my point is to those who treat him as if he is the greatest fighter of all time. If you actually research his "fight history", you will quickly come to realize that he hardly has any fight history at all. All there is are stories from his close friends about how he fought some nobody street thugs in China. Or beat up some guy on a movie set. And the details are sketchy.

I'd just like people to be realistic and realize that he wasn't ever really a fighter like people believe. He was a great martial arts PHILOSOPHER, and one of the most, if not the most influential martial artists in general. But he wasn't the fighter people think he was.

The point of this thread is to address all of the absurd myths and fantasies to try and bring back a dose of reality.

As for penalizing for not being part of events because they weren't practiced during his time, this simple isn't true. Different martial arts had tournaments for their own martial art. For example, boxers fight in boxing matches. Karate fighters fight in karate tournaments. Judo players compete in Judo tournaments. Etc.

There were even tournaments that pitted boxers against wrestlers or karate fighters against Judo fighters. They weren't as common, but they existed.

Anyway, my point is he could have fought in many ways. It's hard to make a case for a fighter who never fights.

[bmd]

It's highly doubtful. Too many things are better nowadays. Why even consider someone nobody knows about? What's the point? What if there's some space alien from planet hfgiahugijhiofhs that could easily destroy all of us humans under a second? Who gives a shit? We don't know anything about them. You go with what you have actual evidence of. Myths, legends and stories are all cute and all, but they're without legitimacy.:cheers: Exactly.

[Clippersfan86]

Some of the greatest astronomers ever were from ancient civilizations and current Astronomers still can't figure a lot of it out. Point is being the most modern doesn't automatically make it the best. Put an ancient fighter/gladiator up against current MMA guys and I bet they win. Fighting is as much about heart, toughness, stamina and experience as it is training.

[andgar923]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, my post may be flawed based on some skimming so forgive me if I'm wrong.

But it seems as tho the OP is making the case that since Lee never fought in an organized capacity, that he can't fight (or am I mistaken?)

He also seems to be making the case that everything and anything related to his feats are lies and exaggerations (which he's partially correct to some extent).

On the flip side of things, the counter argument is that he does have a case as one of the greatest fighters based on his solid foundation. They state that he was one of the founders of what evolved into MMA which shows he had actual talent. Part of their argument is he one doesn't have to be involved in organized competition to be a great fighter. There can be great fighters that simply haven't fought yet. This is akin to saying what if the greatest basketball player ever simply never played in the NBA. What if Kareem, MJ or other greats just didn't play, but still dominated everybody and anybody (there's stories of such things happening).

My stance...

I'm no expert on MMA or martial arts. But I've seen this argument for decades, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There have been exaggerations and lies in regards to Lee's abilities. BUT he still had the talent and will required to become a legendary fighter if he chose to become an organized pro fighter.

And one last thought.

I know real fighters.

They laugh at organized fighting. Real fighters laugh at organized MMA and have no respect for boxing due to its corrupt nature.

So just because these fighters don't fight in an organized sport, it doesn't mean that they can't beat the shit out of the pro fighters.

[bmd]

Some of the greatest astronomers ever were from ancient civilizations and current Astronomers still can't figure a lot of it out. Point is being the most modern doesn't automatically make it the best. Put an ancient fighter/gladiator up against current MMA guys and I bet they win. Fighting is as much about heart, toughness, stamina and experience as it is training.I'm not going to pretend like I know anything about astronomy. But being smart isn't really something that improves with trial and error. There were geniuses from all time periods.

Why do we have HD TV's now, Blu Ray players, the internet, Iphones with the internet and GPS and a phone, and all of this technology that fits in your pocket?

Are people just smarter now? Are we just so smart now that we create these things?

NO!

We have PROGRESSED and BUILT UPON what has been discovered in the past. Slowly but surely, we have this technology because of previous discoveries that have been built upon slowly over time.

Same thing with fighting. Over time, we have slowly built upon the teachings and techniques in the past.

In the early 90's, mixed martial arts changed fighting forever. I'd liken it to the technology boom. With the UFC, all of the fighting arts, techniques, and theories could really have a place to test itself. Techniques have been built upon and improved vastly. Training has improved, nutrition has improved, etc. Fighters now are worlds better than they were just 10, and especially 20 years ago.

It was like the technology boom where technology really exploded.

[bmd]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, my post may be flawed based on some skimming so forgive me if I'm wrong.

But it seems as tho the OP is making the case that since Lee never fought in an organized capacity, that he can't fight (or am I mistaken?)

He also seems to be making the case that everything and anything related to his feats are lies and exaggerations (which he's partially correct to some extent).

On the flip side of things, the counter argument is that he does have a case as one of the greatest fighters based on his solid foundation. They state that he was one of the founders of what evolved into MMA which shows he had actual talent. Part of their argument is he one doesn't have to be involved in organized competition to be a great fighter. There can be great fighters that simply haven't fought yet. This is akin to saying what if the greatest basketball player ever simply never played in the NBA. What if Kareem, MJ or other greats just didn't play, but still dominated everybody and anybody (there's stories of such things happening).

My stance...

I'm no expert on MMA or martial arts. But I've seen this argument for decades, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There have been exaggerations and lies in regards to Lee's abilities. BUT he still had the talent and will required to become a legendary fighter if he chose to become an organized pro fighter.

And one last thought.

I know real fighters.

They laugh at organized fighting. Real fighters laugh at organized MMA and have no respect for boxing due to its corrupt nature.

So just because these fighters don't fight in an organized sport, it doesn't mean that they can't beat the shit out of the pro fighters.No. I'm making the case that there isn't any real proof of Lee fighting AT ALL. Not just in an organized capacity.

But even still... how much would you trust that the greatest basketball player of all time never played in the NBA? He just played on the playground all of his life. Actually, nobody has ever seen him play apart from some close friends and family. But he talks about basketball theory all the time and talks about how amazing of a player he really is.

Could you believe that happening?

And :roll: you know real fighters? Who? What kind of fighters are they?

[andgar923]

One can see that he had the physical abilities to be a great fighter in some of these vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-PNBPvUw0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucLZlwgGT6M&feature=relmfu

In these vids we see him utterly dominate using his speed and agility along with his power.

I guess this cat doesn't know what he's talking about then huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpbi-6Sb_ys&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrbELbDnNH0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9GRApeZ-_w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33gvlfWmoGM&feature=related

Of course, this isn't the nail in the argument. But it does show that he had the capabilities to be a great fighter if he chose to do so.

[iamgine]

I haven't been following this thread very closely, my post may be flawed based on some skimming so forgive me if I'm wrong.

But it seems as tho the OP is making the case that since Lee never fought in an organized capacity, that he can't fight (or am I mistaken?)

He also seems to be making the case that everything and anything related to his feats are lies and exaggerations (which he's partially correct to some extent).

On the flip side of things, the counter argument is that he does have a case as one of the greatest fighters based on his solid foundation. They state that he was one of the founders of what evolved into MMA which shows he had actual talent. Part of their argument is he one doesn't have to be involved in organized competition to be a great fighter. There can be great fighters that simply haven't fought yet. This is akin to saying what if the greatest basketball player ever simply never played in the NBA. What if Kareem, MJ or other greats just didn't play, but still dominated everybody and anybody (there's stories of such things happening).

My stance...

I'm no expert on MMA or martial arts. But I've seen this argument for decades, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. There have been exaggerations and lies in regards to Lee's abilities. BUT he still had the talent and will required to become a legendary fighter if he chose to become an organized pro fighter.

And one last thought.

I know real fighters.

They laugh at organized fighting. Real fighters laugh at organized MMA and have no respect for boxing due to its corrupt nature.

So just because these fighters don't fight in an organized sport, it doesn't mean that they can't beat the shit out of the pro fighters.
I think no one is disputing that Bruce Lee was at least above average in terms of fighting. It's just that his legend was built up to mythical proportions, the man became greater than what he was.

Can they though? By what means? Hand to hand combat? Weapons? Tactics? I can probably beat Anderson Silva with swords, guns, traps, poison, etc.

[andgar923]

So they just don't want to make millions of dollars fighting?

Not everybody is out to get money. Besides, the fighters that I know are far too old to be competitors. They have their own dojos and are multiple degree belts in various techniques which were acquired the old school way. They've been martial artists since the 60s and 70s.

So it aint like I'm referring to 20 something year olds, I'm referring to true 'Masters'.

[iamgine]

One can see that he had the physical abilities to be a great fighter in some of these vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-PNBPvUw0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucLZlwgGT6M&feature=relmfu

In these vids we see him utterly dominate using his speed and agility along with his power.

I guess this cat doesn't know what he's talking about then huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpbi-6Sb_ys&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrbELbDnNH0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9GRApeZ-_w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33gvlfWmoGM&feature=related

Of course, this isn't the nail in the argument. But it does show that he had the capabilities to be a great fighter if he chose to do so.
That's the key point. "if he chose to do so". There's a billion people we can say that about. If they train from infancy they could be a great fighter.

[Jackass18]

Put an ancient fighter/gladiator up against current MMA guys and I bet they win. Fighting is as much about heart, toughness, stamina and experience as it is training.

Way to go out on limb and bet on something that's impossible to happen.

[Jackass18]

They laugh at organized fighting. Real fighters laugh at organized MMA and have no respect for boxing due to its corrupt nature.

So just because these fighters don't fight in an organized sport, it doesn't mean that they can't beat the shit out of the pro fighters.

I laugh at NBA players because they don't have my skill. Just because I don't play in the NBA doesn't mean I couldn't school the shit out of them.

[bmd]

One can see that he had the physical abilities to be a great fighter in some of these vids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-PNBPvUw0c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ucLZlwgGT6M&feature=relmfu

In these vids we see him utterly dominate using his speed and agility along with his power.

I guess this cat doesn't know what he's talking about then huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpbi-6Sb_ys&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrbELbDnNH0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9GRApeZ-_w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33gvlfWmoGM&feature=related

Of course, this isn't the nail in the argument. But it does show that he had the capabilities to be a great fighter if he chose to do so.Haven't you ever seen old black and white footage of baseball games where the players look like they are going a mile a minute?

Were they all super-human quick, or do you think maybe it was the camera that was used that made them look that way?

We've seen Bruce Lee punching a punching bag with a camera that doesn't leave a lot of frames missing, and it isn't incredibly impressive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

[andgar923]

No. I'm making the case that there isn't any real proof of Lee fighting AT ALL. Not just in an organized capacity.

But even still... how much would you trust that the greatest basketball player of all time never played in the NBA? He just played on the playground all of his life. Actually, nobody has ever seen him play apart from some close friends and family. But he talks about basketball theory all the time and talks about how amazing of a player he really is.

Could you believe that happening?

And :roll: you know real fighters? Who? What kind of fighters are they?

Lee has taken part in some public sparring demonstrations against reputable fighters and has crushed them. Not saying that it's the same as an organized fight, but at least it gives us a glimpse of what he could do.

As far as the greatest bball player of all time, there's pro players that have been in awe of local talent, we see this shit all the time. Players that were better then NBA players skills wise, killing everybody in games but made the wrong decisions in life. Some of these NBA players idolize them and hail them as legends, they just made the wrong decisions in life or lacked the discipline to pursue a pro career.

Shit happens all the time.

The same can be said about fighters that don't go pro.

Real fighters that for whatever reason don't join the tournament circuit or organized fighting organizations. And NO I'm not referring to cats like Kimbo, I'm referring to cats that had actual training from an early age but simply made wrong decisions in life.

[andgar923]

That's the key point. "if he chose to do so". There's a billion people we can say that about. If they train from infancy they could be a great fighter.

But did they have the natural abilities?

No.

[andgar923]

I laugh at NBA players because they don't have my skill. Just because I don't play in the NBA doesn't mean I couldn't school the shit out of them.

You're living up to your name.

[bmd]

Not everybody is out to get money. Besides, the fighters that I know are far too old to be competitors. They have their own dojos and are multiple degree belts in various techniques which were acquired the old school way. They've been martial artists since the 60s and 70s.

So it aint like I'm referring to 20 something year olds, I'm referring to true 'Masters'.I hate to break it to you... but there is a LOT of "bullshido" out there.

Just because you own a dojo and have a whatever belt and have been doing it for 50 years doesn't mean they actually know anything about actual fighting.

If you want to learn about actually fighting, you should trace the lineage back to some respectable martial artist / fighter.

[Jello]

I hate to break it to you... but there is a LOT of "bullshido" out there.

Just because you own a dojo and have a whatever belt and have been doing it for 50 years doesn't mean they actually know anything about actual fighting.

If you want to learn about actually fighting, you should trace the lineage back to some respectable martial artist / fighter.
How do you know those guys actually fought though? It's all stories and stylistic bullshit probably.

[andgar923]

Haven't you ever seen old black and white footage of baseball games where the players look like they are going a mile a minute?

Were they all super-human quick, or do you think maybe it was the camera that was used that made them look that way?

We've seen Bruce Lee punching a punching bag with a camera that doesn't leave a lot of frames missing, and it isn't incredibly impressive:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

That's not impressive?

Do you know how much he weighs?

btw.. .just had an earthquake.

[andgar923]

I hate to break it to you... but there is a LOT of "bullshido" out there.

Just because you own a dojo and have a whatever belt and have been doing it for 50 years doesn't mean they actually know anything about actual fighting.

If you want to learn about actually fighting, you should trace the lineage back to some respectable martial artist / fighter.

:facepalm

[bmd]

Lee has taken part in some public sparring demonstrations against reputable fighters and has crushed them. Not saying that it's the same as an organized fight, but at least it gives us a glimpse of what he could do.

As far as the greatest bball player of all time, there's pro players that have been in awe of local talent, we see this shit all the time. Players that were better then NBA players skills wise, killing everybody in games but made the wrong decisions in life. Some of these NBA players idolize them and hail them as legends, they just made the wrong decisions in life or lacked the discipline to pursue a pro career.

Shit happens all the time.

The same can be said about fighters that don't go pro.

Real fighters that for whatever reason don't join the tournament circuit or organized fighting organizations. And NO I'm not referring to cats like Kimbo, I'm referring to cats that had actual training from an early age but simply made wrong decisions in life.What reputable fighters has Lee sparred against? Name ONE. And I already know there is a video of a sparring session. And it isn't even real sparring. It's non-contact sparring.

The difference with your NBA scenario is that these guys are actually playing basketball.

You'd actually have to fight to train fighting. And being a professional fighter isn't like being in the NBA.

Guys can get in the door much easier as a professional fighter at local shows. They'd have to work their way up to the UFC, but it doesn't take much to be a professional at a small show.

So your argument would make sense if you said guys made bad choices and never made it to the big show, but I've never heard of somebody being an Anderson Silva-like fighter to never even fight 1 professional fight because he made bad decisions.

If he's that good, his coaches would push him in the right direction.

I've heard of people making bad choices BEFORE they joined a martial arts gym. But once they did that, they got their head on straight and became successful fighters.

[bmd]

How do you know those guys actually fought though? It's all stories and stylistic bullshit probably.You have to realize the martial arts community is actually pretty small. You can trace these guys back. Trust me.

For example, the lineage for my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor:

Carlos Gracie Sr (founder of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) > Carlos Gracie Jr > Travis Tooke


Easy.

It isn't hard to seek out legit martial artists.

[bmd]

That's not impressive?

Do you know how much he weighs?

btw.. .just had an earthquake.That isn't impressive at all, to be honest. He has average speed with terrible technique.

[andgar923]

What reputable fighters has Lee sparred against? Name ONE. And I already know there is a video of a sparring session. And it isn't even real sparring. It's non-contact sparring.

The difference with your NBA scenario is that these guys are actually playing basketball.

You'd actually have to fight to train fighting. And being a professional fighter isn't like being in the NBA.

Guys can get in the door much easier as a professional fighter at local shows. They'd have to work their way up to the UFC, but it doesn't take much to be a professional at a small show.

So your argument would make sense if you said guys made bad choices and never made it to the big show, but I've never heard of somebody being an Anderson Silva-like fighter to never even fight 1 professional fight because he made bad decisions.

If he's that good, his coaches would push him in the right direction.

I've heard of people making bad choices BEFORE they joined a martial arts gym. But once they did that, they got their head on straight and became successful fighters.

My whole argument is that Lee had the 'abilities' to be a great fighter. In those sparring sessions he demonstrated some of them, contact or none. Before his opponent even reacted he had already made a move (at times 2 or more). If it had been a full contact fight, he would've knocked his opponent down.

Again.. not saying that he was the greatest fighter, or that even if he chose to be a fighter that he'd be the GOAT. But he clearly had all time elite level abilities.

Because you have never heard of a great fighter it doesn't mean they didn't/don't exist.

[bmd]

:facepalmYou said yourself that you don't know much about martial arts.

And this shows that you don't.

You really have to trace their lineage back to be sure. Just because they have done it for 50 years means nothing in the world of martial arts. There are TONS of guys out there teaching absolute nonsense for 50 years.

For example, my uncle is a well-respected Sifu. He holds seminars all over the world. But he is legit. Here is his lineage:

Bruce Lee > Dan Inosanto > My great-uncle.

[SourPatchKids]

There are only two type of people in this world. Chuck Norris and those who fear Chuck Norris.

[Jello]

You have to realize the martial arts community is actually pretty small. You can trace these guys back. Trust me.

For example, the lineage for my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu instructor:

Carlos Gracie Sr (founder of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) > Carlos Gracie Jr > Travis Tooke


Easy.

It isn't hard to seek out legit martial artists.
What about martial arts that go farther back then brazilian jiu jitsu? The founders of those martial arts are probably bullshit because theres no evidence. They aren't real fighters.

[andgar923]

That isn't impressive at all, to be honest. He has average speed with terrible technique.

Average speed?

:roll:

He created his own technique, are you an expert in Jeet Kune Do?

Again... the man created a new technique based on various fighting styles and techniques, some of the standard judging don't apply because you're not solely judging a karate strike. He's using boxing elements with his strikes, along with traditional Karate strikes, and so on.

You appear extremely intent on discrediting everything and anything, won't waste my time anymore.

[Jackass18]

You're living up to your name.

You're the one who said that it doesn't mean they can't beat the shit out of pro fighters while shortly thereafter saying they're far too old to be competitors. What disciplines are you talking about anyways?

[bmd]

What about martial arts that go farther back then brazilian jiu jitsu? The founders of those martial arts are probably bullshit because theres no evidence. They aren't real fighters.It depends on the martial art. They don't necessarily have to be fighters.

They have to be respected in their own martial art.

For example, I don't think Kung-Fu is helpful in learning to fight. But if you are looking for a good Kung-Fu instructor, you can trace their lineage back to whatever respectable Kung-Fu instructor.

Like I said, the martial arts community is small.

[Jello]

It depends on the martial art. They don't necessarily have to be fighters.

They have to be respected in their own martial art.

For example, I don't think Kung-Fu is helpful in learning to fight. But if you are looking for a good Kung-Fu instructor, you can trace their lineage back to whatever respectable Kung-Fu instructor.

Like I said, the martial arts community is small.
Yeah give me hard evidence or it doesn't exist. I completely agree with you.

[bmd]

Average speed?

:roll:

He created his own technique, are you an expert in Jeet Kune Do?

Again... the man created a new technique based on various fighting styles and techniques, some of the standard judging don't apply because you're not solely judging a karate strike. He's using boxing elements with his strikes, along with traditional Karate strikes, and so on.

You appear extremely intent on discrediting everything and anything, won't waste my time anymore.I said earlier in this thread, my great-uncle was a student of one of Bruce Lee's original students. I know a fair amount about JFJKD.

And it isn't an impressive feat to create your own martial art, contrary to popular belief.

Every famous martial artist has their "own" martial art where they've blended elements from other martial arts. JFJKD is no different.

Tommy the Green Power Ranger (Jason David Frank) even has his own martial art called Toso Kune Do. It's his own style of Karate and other things.

I'm not trying to discredit things... I'm trying to teach you guys, because you are ignorant about martial arts.

P.S.. based on that heavy bag video, his punches were pretty slow.

[Jello]

bmd, you should post a video to debunk these idiots. Post yourself punching a heavy bag. Also have you seen charlie z punching bags?

[Jackass18]

Why in the hell do people keep bringing up that there could be some mysterious, legendary, mythical fighter that nobody has ever heard of? Why are we supposed to care about some guy you know absolutely nothing about, but seem to want to exist because you watched too many kung fu movies as a little kid?

[Jackass18]

bmd, you should post a video to debunk these idiots. Post yourself punching a heavy bag. Also have you seen charlie z punching bags?

I'll post a video of one of andgar's friends: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I

[Jello]

I'll post a video of one of andgar's friends: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEDaCIDvj6I
LOLOL:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
EDIT: Just saw the end. I thought it was fake, is it real? wtff

[andgar923]

You said yourself that you don't know much about martial arts.

And this shows that you don't.

You really have to trace their lineage back to be sure. Just because they have done it for 50 years means nothing in the world of martial arts. There are TONS of guys out there teaching absolute nonsense for 50 years.

For example, my uncle is a well-respected Sifu. He holds seminars all over the world. But he is legit. Here is his lineage:

Bruce Lee > Dan Inosanto > My great-uncle.

They are well respected in the Los Angeles and to some degree, world martial arts community.

I can PM you their info if you want.

[bmd]

They are well respected in the Los Angeles and to some degree, world martial arts community.

I can PM you their info if you want.You can if you'd like. I can get back to you and let you know if they are legit or not.

[andgar923]

I said earlier in this thread, my great-uncle was a student of one of Bruce Lee's original students. I know a fair amount about JFJKD.

And it isn't an impressive feat to create your own martial art, contrary to popular belief.

Every famous martial artist has their "own" martial art where they've blended elements from other martial arts. JFJKD is no different.

Tommy the Green Power Ranger (Jason David Frank) even has his own martial art called Toso Kune Do. It's his own style of Karate and other things.

I'm not trying to discredit things... I'm trying to teach you guys, because you are ignorant about martial arts.

P.S.. based on that heavy bag video, his punches were pretty slow.

I mentioned that because you seemed to simply ignore his knowledge and dismiss his technique.

Jeet Kune Do at the time was one of the first (if not the first) style that incorporated different styles and techniques, and it happens to be a respected style.

[bmd]

I mentioned that because you seemed to simply ignore his knowledge and dismiss his technique.

Jeet Kune Do at the time was one of the first (if not the first) style that incorporated different styles and techniques, and it happens to be a respected style.Don't you think Pankration was the first to incorporate different styles and techniques?

Pankration was founded in ancient Greece and combined boxing, wrestling, and submissions. It was an Olympic sport.

The combining of different martial arts has been going on since there have been martial arts.

[andgar923]

Don't you think Pankration was the first to incorporate different styles and techniques?

Pankration was founded in ancient Greece and combined boxing, wrestling, and submissions. It was an Olympic sport.

The combining of different martial arts has been going on since there have been martial arts.

I stand corrected.

[9erempiree]

I'm just going to say one more thing and it probably won't change anyone's mind but you have to remember that not only was Lee a physical specimen, yes bodybuilders looked up to him, for his great proportions. Proportions is half the sport of bodybuilding but the fact that Lee was an innovator. He possessed speed, quickness, power and was very limber, something that can't be found in any modern day "sport fighter."

Let's be clear here....Lee was a fighter and not a sport fighter. Put him in a cage and he will probably kill a guy because the dude had one of those brilliant minds and the flip side of a brilliant mind is a crazy mind.

Put Lee in a cage with a sport fighter with weapons and no holds barred. Bruce would kill the guy also.

You might say the sport fighter never trained in weapons but that's because he's not a real fighter. Bruce never intended to kill anyone but he still trained with many weapons. Being a fighter is a lifestyle and not some occupation. The man was a well trained machine.

Give Silva a weapon of choice minus a firearm and give Bruce a weapon of choice....that will explain who the real fighter is mind, body and soul.

Tell me who you got when sh!t hits the fan.....the guy that knows to use many weapons or some guy that fights for money?

[9erempiree]

One more thing......

In most legit dojos and traditional martial art dojos, not some MMA gym, there are weapons. Whether that be nunchuks, the bow, swords and knives you take classes to learn how to use each and everyone of those weapons. You are basically trained to defend and kill.

A guy walks into your dojo and you beat his ass so he proceeds to grab a weapon off the wall. You better grab one too and get ready to kill the guy. If you walk into a sport fighting dojo....you kick the guy's ass and he walks away.

Imagine letting me walk into your house and challenge you to a fight and you have knives and swords on the wall. I don't think it will sit too well for the homeowner.

Like I said, Lee is a fighter.

To answer this thread, yes, he's the greatest fighter.

I think the question the OP should be asking is, CAN HE BECOME A GOOD SPORT FIGHTER? Answer is yes....when the man trained himself in weaponry that far exceeds what a sport fighter is doing.

Look up videos and most people I know say they are training MMA but not many I know say they are training to use nunchuks and any other weapons from the Far East.

[Jackass18]

He possessed speed, quickness, power and was very limber, something that can't be found in any modern day "sport fighter."

Umm, what?


Let's be clear here....Lee was a fighter and not a sport fighter. Put him in a cage and he will probably kill a guy because the dude had one of those brilliant minds and the flip side of a brilliant mind is a crazy mind.

You have a crazy mind. Do you kill people?


Put Lee in a cage with a sport fighter with weapons and no holds barred. Bruce would kill the guy also.

Or he'd get shot and die.


You might say the sport fighter never trained in weapons but that's because he's not a real fighter. Bruce never intended to kill anyone but he still trained with many weapons. Being a fighter is a lifestyle and not some occupation. The man was a well trained machine.

The **** are you even talking about? Go back to your kung fu movies.


One more thing......

In most legit dojos and traditional martial art dojos, not some MMA gym, there are weapons. Whether that be nunchuks, the bow, swords and knives you take classes to learn how to use each and everyone of those weapons. You are basically trained to defend and kill.

A guy walks into your dojo and you beat his ass so he proceeds to grab a weapon off the wall. You better grab one too and get ready to kill the guy. If you walk into a sport fighting dojo....you kick the guy's ass and he walks away.

Imagine letting me walk into your house and challenge you to a fight and you have knives and swords on the wall. I don't think it will sit too well for the homeowner.

Like I said, Lee is a fighter.

To answer this thread, yes, he's the greatest fighter.

I think the question the OP should be asking is, CAN HE BECOME A GOOD SPORT FIGHTER? Answer is yes....when the man trained himself in weaponry that far exceeds what a sport fighter is doing.

Look up videos and most people I know say they are training MMA but not many I know say they are training to use nunchuks and any other weapons from the Far East.

The **** is the point of any of this when people choose to use a gun to defend themselves from wackos like you?

[Lebron23]

Manny Pacquiao would beat Bruce Lee in a Street Fight.

[9erempiree]

Umm, what?



You have a crazy mind. Do you kill people?



Or he'd get shot and die.



The **** are you even talking about? Go back to your kung fu movies.



The **** is the point of any of this when people choose to use a gun to defend themselves from wackos like you?

The point is he was a real fighter that trained himself to use weapons. Did you really miss the part where I said anything "minus a gun" because I knew some fool would bring up a gun in a thread about fighting.:facepalm Btw..the weapons I brought up are non-advantageous to one another. With proper training an expert in one weapon can successfully defeat another trained weapons expert.

Would you consider all those massacres happening today that the shooter was a good fighter?

Any idiot can pull a trigger.

[Jackass18]

**** Bruce Lee.

This guy would murderize him.
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/126811/2437177-409738-pai_mei.jpg

He lived for a 1000 years. How long did Lee live for? I rest my case.

[andgar923]

One last parting shot.

Lee trained with most of the top martial artists of his era and they respected him. Again, just because he trained with them it doesn't mean that he was great himself, but they did respect him enough that they mentioned how great of a fighter he was. They could've easily dismissed him, they could've avoided his offers to train, but it was the opposite. He was actually surrounded by a who's who of the best of the best world class fighters of the time, tournament champions and legendary martial artists, he had to have some credibility.

Again... not saying that he was the best ever or that he could've been.

But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not.

[Jackass18]

The point is he was a real fighter that trained himself to use weapons. Did you really miss the part where I said anything "minus a gun" because I knew some fool would bring up a gun in a thread about fighting.:facepalm Btw..the weapons I brought up are non-advantageous to one another. With proper training an expert in one weapon can successfully defeat another trained weapons expert.

Would you consider all those massacres happening today that the shooter was a good fighter?

Any idiot can pull a trigger.

This thread is about unarmed fighting, so why all of the sudden are you bringing up weapons and talking about people yanking weapons off of walls and trying to kill people with them? In any case, what weapon would Bruce Lee be the greatest fighter with? If you put Bruce Lee in a cage with another fighter in a life or death situation, then why do you think only Lee would kill? Bruce Lee was an actor, but you're acting like he went around killing people or something. You're giving the indication that you think he's the greatest fighter ever simply because you idolize him.

[Jackass18]

One last parting shot.

Lee trained with most of the top martial artists of his era and they respected him. Again, just because he trained with them it doesn't mean that he was great himself, but they did respect him enough that they mentioned how great of a fighter he was. They could've easily dismissed him, they could've avoided his offers to train, but it was the opposite. He was actually surrounded by a who's who of the best of the best world class fighters of the time, tournament champions and legendary martial artists, he had to have some credibility.

Again... not saying that he was the best ever or that he could've been.

But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not.

Based on what? Anderson Silva trained with and respects Seagal, but that doesn't mean Seagal would beat the shit out of most pro fighters.

[andgar923]

Based on what? Anderson Silva trained with and respects Seagal, but that doesn't mean Seagal would beat the shit out of most pro fighters.

Because some of them said so?

[D-Wade316]

He is the GOAT.

/thread

[bmd]

I'm just going to say one more thing and it probably won't change anyone's mind but you have to remember that not only was Lee a physical specimen, yes bodybuilders looked up to him, for his great proportions. Proportions is half the sport of bodybuilding but the fact that Lee was an innovator. He possessed speed, quickness, power and was very limber, something that can't be found in any modern day "sport fighter."

Let's be clear here....Lee was a fighter and not a sport fighter. Put him in a cage and he will probably kill a guy because the dude had one of those brilliant minds and the flip side of a brilliant mind is a crazy mind.

Put Lee in a cage with a sport fighter with weapons and no holds barred. Bruce would kill the guy also.

You might say the sport fighter never trained in weapons but that's because he's not a real fighter. Bruce never intended to kill anyone but he still trained with many weapons. Being a fighter is a lifestyle and not some occupation. The man was a well trained machine.

Give Silva a weapon of choice minus a firearm and give Bruce a weapon of choice....that will explain who the real fighter is mind, body and soul.

Tell me who you got when sh!t hits the fan.....the guy that knows to use many weapons or some guy that fights for money?

One more thing......

In most legit dojos and traditional martial art dojos, not some MMA gym, there are weapons. Whether that be nunchuks, the bow, swords and knives you take classes to learn how to use each and everyone of those weapons. You are basically trained to defend and kill.

A guy walks into your dojo and you beat his ass so he proceeds to grab a weapon off the wall. You better grab one too and get ready to kill the guy. If you walk into a sport fighting dojo....you kick the guy's ass and he walks away.

Imagine letting me walk into your house and challenge you to a fight and you have knives and swords on the wall. I don't think it will sit too well for the homeowner.

Like I said, Lee is a fighter.

To answer this thread, yes, he's the greatest fighter.

I think the question the OP should be asking is, CAN HE BECOME A GOOD SPORT FIGHTER? Answer is yes....when the man trained himself in weaponry that far exceeds what a sport fighter is doing.

Look up videos and most people I know say they are training MMA but not many I know say they are training to use nunchuks and any other weapons from the Far East.You are delusional beyond belief. You literally know nothing about martial arts.

It is literally as if you learned everything you know from watching movies.

[bmd]

One last parting shot.

Lee trained with most of the top martial artists of his era and they respected him. Again, just because he trained with them it doesn't mean that he was great himself, but they did respect him enough that they mentioned how great of a fighter he was. They could've easily dismissed him, they could've avoided his offers to train, but it was the opposite. He was actually surrounded by a who's who of the best of the best world class fighters of the time, tournament champions and legendary martial artists, he had to have some credibility.

Again... not saying that he was the best ever or that he could've been.

But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not.It isn't true that Lee trained with "most of the top martial artists of his era". Not even close.

In fact, the only well-known martial artists I can think of who Lee trained with were Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis.

Joe Lewis literally says that Bruce Lee was not a real fighter... he was an actor who had interesting ideas about martial arts. He states when they'd train together, they would simply work on different techniques and drills... they'd never spar.

He would try to get Bruce to spar with him, but Bruce always refused.

Joe Lewis did say that Bruce helped him become a better fighter. But when asked about Bruce's own ability as a fighter:

‘Substitute the word “swimmer” for “fighter”,’ says Lewis. ‘This was the greatest swimmer of all time. He would a beat everybody else, ever.’

‘Was he?’ I ask. ‘How many times did he win the Olympics?’

“Aw, man, he didn’t have to do all that.” That’s what those JKD guys claim. “He was beyond all that,” they say.

‘Now here, this guy’s never competed, never been to a swim meet, we’ve never seen him really swim. We don’t even know how many swimming lessons he had, really.

Do you see what I mean?

‘Put another word in place of “fighter”, does all of it start to sound stupid or what?’

[andgar923]

[QUOTE=bmd]It isn't true that Lee trained with "most of the top martial artists of his era". Not even close.

In fact, the only well-known martial artists I can think of who Lee trained with were Chuck Norris and Joe Lewis.

Joe Lewis literally says that Bruce Lee was not a real fighter... he was an actor who had interesting ideas about martial arts. He states when they'd train together, they would simply work on different techniques and drills... they'd never spar.

He would try to get Bruce to spar with him, but Bruce always refused.

Joe Lewis did say that Bruce helped him become a better fighter. But when asked about Bruce's own ability as a fighter:

[DonDadda59]

Gene Lebell, Jim Kelly, Bob Wall,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA

and there's others that have






I remember reading more quotes by other respected martial artists of the time, I'll post them when I find them.

To be fair, I think 50 Cent also won a gold gloves championship (unconfirmed) but no one in their right mind is going to say he is the greatest fighter ever because of that. And if there's any martial artist out there whose legend is even more outlandish than Lee's, it's his master Y/Ip Man. You ever see the movies about his 'life'? :oldlol:

[bmd]

Gene Lebell, Jim Kelly, Bob Wall,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNg8yls4UA

and there's others that have






I remember reading more quotes by other respected martial artists of the time, I'll post them when I find them.We already talked about Gene Lebell.

And funny that you should mention Bob Wall. Bob Wall said in "Deadly Hands Magazine". When he says "a couple dozen of us.. he's talking about the martial artists working on the movie set of "Enter the Dragon":

Wall: "But Bruce felt threatened because he knew there were at least a couple dozen of us who were at least as fast or faster than him, and could hit as hard or harder. But see, he had this basic insecurity; he'd never been a world champion. He'd never competed. So here he was with real world champions and there was that difference. "Gee, I think I'm as good as you are, but you've done it and I haven't."

Deadly Hands: That is a very different view of Bruce Lee than many promulgate...

Wall: Bruce was a supreme egotist. Look. I liked Bruce. He and I were good friends. But I am also a realist about all my friends. Now, I really liked Bruce, in spite of his ego problem. I've never said this in an interview before because I felt- well, he's gone. Might as well say nice things. And I'm not saying anything bad about him now. It was just a matter of creativity. Bruce had this intense creativity but he was very, very insecure. He had no confidence. What I'm telling you are the facts. What has been printed is mostly mythical, wonderful stuff. He was just insecure. He'd never competed, though we all felt he was good enough to become a lightweight champion. At 136 pounds he sure wasn't going to take and beat any Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris. But in order to be a world champion you also have to lose. Name me a champion and I'll tell you who he lost to. We've ALL lost. But Bruce didn't want to have an official loss on his record.""



------

Sounds a little different from all of the stories, doesn't it?

[bmd]

So two of the people he's trained with, Wall and Lewis, have basically said similar things about Bruce's fighting ability.

Gene LeBell has hinted at the same things. So has Chuck Norris.

[andgar923]

We already talked about Gene Lebell.

And funny that you should mention Bob Wall. Bob Wall said in "Deadly Hands Magazine". When he says "a couple dozen of us.. he's talking about the martial artists working on the movie set of "Enter the Dragon":

Wall: "But Bruce felt threatened because he knew there were at least a couple dozen of us who were at least as fast or faster than him, and could hit as hard or harder. But see, he had this basic insecurity; he'd never been a world champion. He'd never competed. So here he was with real world champions and there was that difference. "Gee, I think I'm as good as you are, but you've done it and I haven't."

Deadly Hands: That is a very different view of Bruce Lee than many promulgate...

Wall: Bruce was a supreme egotist. Look. I liked Bruce. He and I were good friends. But I am also a realist about all my friends. Now, I really liked Bruce, in spite of his ego problem. I've never said this in an interview before because I felt- well, he's gone. Might as well say nice things. And I'm not saying anything bad about him now. It was just a matter of creativity. Bruce had this intense creativity but he was very, very insecure. He had no confidence. What I'm telling you are the facts. What has been printed is mostly mythical, wonderful stuff. He was just insecure. He'd never competed, though we all felt he was good enough to become a lightweight champion. At 136 pounds he sure wasn't going to take and beat any Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris. But in order to be a world champion you also have to lose. Name me a champion and I'll tell you who he lost to. We've ALL lost. But Bruce didn't want to have an official loss on his record.""



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Sounds a little different from all of the stories, doesn't it?

And that's all I've been saying the whole time.

Not that he was the best but that others respected him enough to say that he could've been one of the best.

Why is it hard for you to accept that?

[DonDadda59]

We already talked about Gene Lebell.

And funny that you should mention Bob Wall. Bob Wall said in "Deadly Hands Magazine". When he says "a couple dozen of us.. he's talking about the martial artists working on the movie set of "Enter the Dragon":

Wall: "But Bruce felt threatened because he knew there were at least a couple dozen of us who were at least as fast or faster than him, and could hit as hard or harder. But see, he had this basic insecurity; he'd never been a world champion. He'd never competed. So here he was with real world champions and there was that difference. "Gee, I think I'm as good as you are, but you've done it and I haven't."

Deadly Hands: That is a very different view of Bruce Lee than many promulgate...

Wall: Bruce was a supreme egotist. Look. I liked Bruce. He and I were good friends. But I am also a realist about all my friends. Now, I really liked Bruce, in spite of his ego problem. I've never said this in an interview before because I felt- well, he's gone. Might as well say nice things. And I'm not saying anything bad about him now. It was just a matter of creativity. Bruce had this intense creativity but he was very, very insecure. He had no confidence. What I'm telling you are the facts. What has been printed is mostly mythical, wonderful stuff. He was just insecure. He'd never competed, though we all felt he was good enough to become a lightweight champion. At 136 pounds he sure wasn't going to take and beat any Joe Lewis or Chuck Norris. But in order to be a world champion you also have to lose. Name me a champion and I'll tell you who he lost to. We've ALL lost. But Bruce didn't want to have an official loss on his record.""



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Sounds a little different from all of the stories, doesn't it?

I think that was a huge part of why he never competed or even declined to spar with some of the more well established fighters- he wanted to preserve his myth. There was a lot of money in the idea that Lee was an unbeatable super specimen, having a loss on his record or being bested by an actual fighter would've tarnished that image as well as hurt his box office drawing ability and obviously ego. And let's be real- he wasn't going to beat a middleweight world champion like Chuck Norris or do anything except get manhandled in a Judo match against Gene LeBell. And that's not a knock on Bruce at all, just reality.

[bmd]

And that's all I've been saying the whole time.

Not that he was the best but that others respected him enough to say that he could've been one of the best.

Why is it hard for you to accept that?Considering they've never seen him actually fight, I'm assuming they are talking about his physical attributes. They are saying if he actually trained to fight in tournaments, then he was probably good enough to become a champion. And he's talking about a Karate champion... not a full-contact fighter in any discipline.

You did say something similar to this, but then you also stated:

"But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not."


So which is it?

[Jackass18]

And that's all I've been saying the whole time.

Not that he was the best but that others respected him enough to say that he could've been one of the best.

Why is it hard for you to accept that?

It's mere speculation. The thread is about if he was the greatest fighter ever and not about what ifs, maybes and what might have beens. We could speculate that BJ Penn could have been the greatest fighter if he put the effort in, or speculate that some guy with Godly athletic gifts could have been the greatest fighter ever if he trained for it.

[bmd]

I think that was a huge part of why he never competed or even declined to spar with some of the more well established fighters- he wanted to preserve his myth. There was a lot of money in the idea that Lee was an unbeatable super specimen, having a loss on his record or being bested by an actual fighter would've tarnished that image as well as hurt his box office drawing ability and obviously ego. And let's be real- he wasn't going to beat a middleweight world champion like Chuck Norris or do anything except get manhandled in a Judo match against Gene LeBell. And that's not a knock on Bruce at all, just reality.Truth.

[andgar923]

I think that was a huge part of why he never competed or even declined to spar with some of the more well established fighters- he wanted to preserve his myth. There was a lot of money in the idea that Lee was an unbeatable super specimen, having a loss on his record or being bested by an actual fighter would've tarnished that image as well as hurt his box office drawing ability and obviously ego. And let's be real- he wasn't going to beat a middleweight world champion like Chuck Norris or do anything except get manhandled in a Judo match against Gene LeBell. And that's not a knock on Bruce at all, just reality.

That's acceptable.

I also believe that he was insecure, people that are usually as brash and cocky as Lee are usually the most insecure. But that's also what drove him to train so hard and surround himself with the fighters he did.

But then again, there's those that have stated he could back up his claims.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The OP is deadset at dismissing anything and everything that sheds him in a positive light, yet highlighting everything and anything that fit his agenda.

A perfect example of this lies in the quote he posted. He highlights the part that mentions his insecurity, but fails to acknowledge the fact that some of these people legitimately respected him.

[andgar923]

It's mere speculation. The thread is about if he was the greatest fighter ever and not about what ifs, maybes and what might have beens. We could speculate that BJ Penn could have been the greatest fighter if he put the effort in, or speculate that some guy with Godly athletic gifts could have been the greatest fighter ever if he trained for it.

But I never said that he was or could've been. :no:

[andgar923]

Considering they've never seen him actually fight, I'm assuming they are talking about his physical attributes. They are saying if he actually trained to fight in tournaments, then he was probably good enough to become a champion. And he's talking about a Karate champion... not a full-contact fighter in any discipline.

You did say something similar to this, but then you also stated:

"But I wouldn't put it past him to beat the shit out of most fighters pro or not."


So which is it?

That goes along with what most of them believe. If given the time to train, he had the knowledge and the attributes to beat the shit out of most fighters.

Not sure why that's hard to believe.

[bmd]

That's acceptable.

I also believe that he was insecure, people that are usually as brash and cocky as Lee are usually the most insecure. But that's also what drove him to train so hard and surround himself with the fighters he did.

But then again, there's those that have stated he could back up his claims.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The OP is deadset at dismissing anything and everything that sheds him in a positive light, yet highlighting everything and anything that fit his agenda.

A perfect example of this lies in the quote he posted. He highlights the part that mentions his insecurity, but fails to acknowledge the fact that some of these people legitimately respected him.That isn't true at all. If I really wanted to cherry-pick quotes, I would have just left that part out.

But I didn't, because I wanted to post what he actually said.

I'm not dismissing everything that shows him in a positive light. We are strictly talking about his ability as a FIGHTER. And considering he isn't the fighter people make him out as, and I'm trying to show that, of course most of what I say is going to be "negative" according to your point of view.

If you want to talk about other aspects of martial arts in regards to Bruce Lee, it would be much more positive.

But as far as his "physical feats" and fighting ability go, I'm trying to bring you and some others in this thread back to reality.

[bmd]

That goes along with what most of them believe. If given the time to train, he had the knowledge and the attributes to beat the shit out of most fighters.

Not sure why that's hard to believe.That is quite a jump. Bob Wall is talking about non-contact karate here... not full-contact mixed martial arts fights.

We have no idea how Bruce would react to getting hit in the face and being put in certain positions. Some people mentally break at certain points in a real fight, and there is no way to emulate that without getting in a fight. Some people tire or burn themselves out too fast in a fight. Some people get away with things in "points" fighting that they could never get away with in a real fight.

It is difficult to explain, but there are certain things that you can't emulate even in sparring.

There are some people who are like gods in the gym and in sparring, and are completely average in actual competition because of the intangibles that can't be measured in the gym.

Basically, we have no idea how good of a fighter Bruce Lee WOULD have been.

[DonDadda59]

That's acceptable.

I also believe that he was insecure, people that are usually as brash and cocky as Lee are usually the most insecure. But that's also what drove him to train so hard and surround himself with the fighters he did.

But then again, there's those that have stated he could back up his claims.

I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The OP is deadset at dismissing anything and everything that sheds him in a positive light, yet highlighting everything and anything that fit his agenda.

A perfect example of this lies in the quote he posted. He highlights the part that mentions his insecurity, but fails to acknowledge the fact that some of these people legitimately respected him.

Yeah, there's no question that Lee was a superb athlete and would've been a fantastic fighter had he focused his energy solely on combat instead of movie cameras. And his impact on the world of martial arts, combat sports, and film is undeniable. But I thought the issue here was whether or not he should be considered the 'GOAT' fighter... and that's just ridiculous IMO. Honestly, don't think I've ever heard anyone actually make the claim that he was the greatest fighter to ever live.

Just doesn't make any sense. Where exactly would that idea even come from, 'Enter the Dragon'? :confusedshrug:

Plus I think the OP brought up people debating who would win in a fight between Lee and Mike Tyson. Da Fuq? Tyson was a 220-230 lb heavyweight professional boxer and Lee was a 135 lb professional actor. If Tyson in his prime couldn't beat an actor who weighed 90-100 lbs less than him, I'd say he was in the wrong line of work. That's just plain stupid :oldlol:

[magictricked]

Chuck Norris on Bruce Lee

[QUOTE]Many have opined about the answer. Some even indicted what I haven

[bmd]

Yeah, there's no question that Lee was a superb athlete and would've been a fantastic fighter had he focused his energy solely on combat instead of movie cameras. And his impact on the world of martial arts, combat sports, and film is undeniable. But I thought the issue here was whether or not he should be considered the 'GOAT' fighter... and that's just ridiculous IMO. Honestly, don't think I've ever heard anyone actually make the claim that he was the greatest fighter to ever live.

Just doesn't make any sense. Where exactly would that idea even come from, 'Enter the Dragon'? :confusedshrug:

Plus I think the OP brought up people debating who would win in a fight between Lee and Mike Tyson. Da Fuq? Tyson was a 220-230 lb heavyweight professional boxer and Lee was a 135 lb professional actor. If Tyson in his prime couldn't beat an actor who weighed 90-100 lbs less than him, I'd say he was in the wrong line of work. That's just plain stupid :oldlol:I guess you just haven't run into the right people. Go on Youtube on Bruce Lee videos and you will constantly see people saying how Bruce Lee would have destroyed all these different people.

Just type into Google "Bruce Lee vs. Mike Tyson". Watch how many results you get.

Here is the second result on Google:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090415163251AASsYS9


Here is every single response:

Bruce lee vs Mike tyson?

Brickfists: "I'm the biggest Mike Tyson fan you'll ever know, but Bruce Lee would kill him even if it were under boxing rules. [url]http://www.wiitalk.co.uk/forums/wii-brea

[DonDadda59]

People are idiots, what's new? I stopped reading when the first responder said Lee would win in a boxing match. That'd be a sight to see, a 135 lb actor beating the heavyweight champion of the world, one of the hardest hitting fighters in history. :oldlol:

Manny Pacquiao is roughly the same size Lee was and he would've punched a hole in Bruce's face inside of 1 round.

How funny would it be if in 30 years or so, people actually believe the bullshit people make up about Chuck Norris today? Wouldn't surprise me, people believe more ridiculous stories than that...

[Jackass18]

How funny would it be if in 30 years or so, people actually believe the bullshit people make up about Chuck Norris today? Wouldn't surprise me, people believe more ridiculous stories than that...

Jet Li, JVCD, Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris, and Jackie Chan are the greatest fighters of our era.

[DonDadda59]

Jet Li, JVCD, Steven Seagal, Chuck Norris, and Jackie Chan are the greatest fighters of our era.

The one fighter to rule them all :bowdown:

http://tkohub.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/steven-seagall-guitar.jpg

[spree43]

I think many people including martial artists who train casually or don't spar fail to understand the depth of martial arts.

You can say that Bruce Lee trained in grappling and say he knew how to do an arm bar or rear naked choke, but its not in knowing the technique its in 1000s of repetitions.

There are many martial arts out there that are great for self defence against an untrained opponent and if that is your goal all the best to you and you can achieve it through those martial arts.

However, if you think that you can arm bar someone who trains in brazilian jiu jitsu just because you drilled it 15 times at practice, you have another thing coming. Someone who trains bjj has had someone try to arm bar them 100s of times before they even get passed white belt. Its the same with boxing and striking, they've spent 100s of hours sparring and drilling their techniques so you aren't going to catch their punch and twist their wrist.

Bruce Lee was incredible hard working and loved martial arts. He had a good "physique" (not that I understand how that relates to martial arts). He trained a lot at kicking and striking, so I'd assume his stand up was decent and he knew a few grappling techniques.

He also suffered from the same problem as many martial artists of that time, that being the lack of understanding of how effective grappling is.

There is no doubt that he would have trained bjj had he been around in the 90s when it exploded because he had a great mind for it and was athletic. But its kind of disrespectful to those who have spent 100s of hours of hard sparring to think that Bruce Lee would last one minute on the ground against any black belt in bjj. Or to say that if it was more popular then he would have been great at it. Because its takes 100 of hours of practice no matter how athletically gifted you are, so its kind of silly to just jump to saying he would have endured all of that and been great.

I also think its funny when guys say "this guy is a street fighter, he'd beat guys in a street fight but not in a sport fight".

Honestly, anyone who ranks Bruce Lee in top 100 fighters of all time is showing a huge lack of understanding of fighting and martial arts.

However, if we are ranking the most influential martial artists, he will probably be number one, because he made martial arts famous in the western world.

[D-Wade316]

To be fair, I think 50 Cent also won a gold gloves championship (unconfirmed) but no one in their right mind is going to say he is the greatest fighter ever because of that. And if there's any martial artist out there whose legend is even more outlandish than Lee's, it's his master Y/Ip Man. You ever see the movies about his 'life'? :oldlol:
Yeah. :oldlol:

[bmd]

I think many people including martial artists who train casually or don't spar fail to understand the depth of martial arts.

You can say that Bruce Lee trained in grappling and say he knew how to do an arm bar or rear naked choke, but its not in knowing the technique its in 1000s of repetitions.

There are many martial arts out there that are great for self defence against an untrained opponent and if that is your goal all the best to you and you can achieve it through those martial arts.

However, if you think that you can arm bar someone who trains in brazilian jiu jitsu just because you drilled it 15 times at practice, you have another thing coming. Someone who trains bjj has had someone try to arm bar them 100s of times before they even get passed white belt. Its the same with boxing and striking, they've spent 100s of hours sparring and drilling their techniques so you aren't going to catch their punch and twist their wrist.

Bruce Lee was incredible hard working and loved martial arts. He had a good "physique" (not that I understand how that relates to martial arts). He trained a lot at kicking and striking, so I'd assume his stand up was decent and he knew a few grappling techniques.

He also suffered from the same problem as many martial artists of that time, that being the lack of understanding of how effective grappling is.

There is no doubt that he would have trained bjj had he been around in the 90s when it exploded because he had a great mind for it and was athletic. But its kind of disrespectful to those who have spent 100s of hours of hard sparring to think that Bruce Lee would last one minute on the ground against any black belt in bjj. Or to say that if it was more popular then he would have been great at it. Because its takes 100 of hours of practice no matter how athletically gifted you are, so its kind of silly to just jump to saying he would have endured all of that and been great.

I also think its funny when guys say "this guy is a street fighter, he'd beat guys in a street fight but not in a sport fight".

Honestly, anyone who ranks Bruce Lee in top 100 fighters of all time is showing a huge lack of understanding of fighting and martial arts.

However, if we are ranking the most influential martial artists, he will probably be number one, because he made martial arts famous in the western world.These are my thoughts exactly.

One of the reasons I strongly dislike all of the myths about Bruce Lee is that it makes it seem like all of the other great martial artists out there are automatically inferior, and nobody can live up to Bruce.

That would be bad enough if he was actually proven, but it's even worse considering the things people base this off of... pure nonsense and speculation.

Everything you said from top to bottom, I 100% agree with.