How "clutch" was Jerry West?

[oolalaa]

We've all heard that Jerry West was "clutch" - His peers bestowed the rather unoriginal nickname of "Mr Clutch" to him sometime in the mid 60s - but was he really? Does his entire "clutch" legacy rest on just a few seconds in the closing moments of two games? (i.e His famous steal in game 3 of the '62 finals and his half court buzzer beater in game 3 of the '70 finals)

Well, I wanted to find out, so I scoured through hundreds of newspaper articles of every single one of his post season games (From '61 to '73), and, from what I've gathered, his peers may have been selling him short. In fact, of all the great perimiter players in history, including Larry Bird, I would say only Jordan was better when the game was on the line. He was routinely spectacular, and I could find hardly any games where he shot the Lakers out of a win.


Anyway, without further ado, here is a comprehensive list of Jerry West's crunch time heroics. If I have somehow missed any out, or if anyone can give some more detail of a particular game, then please let me know....

Note 1: The WCFs between '62 and '66 are 1st round matchups.
Note 2: I havn't included EVERY single clutch moment for a couple of reasons (Lakers lost, not impressive enough etc). Most notably....A go ahead shot with 27 seconds left in OT '61, gm 6 vs Hawks (Pettit game winner)....Big 4th Q in '62, gm 4 vs Pistons (Lakers lost)....Game winning FTs in '70, gm 2 vs Knicks (Only 1 FT was needed)....big 2nd half/4th Q in '72, gm 4 vs Bulls.



1962 WCFs, game 3, Pistons.

With the Pistons surging back late in the 4th quarter, Jerry West "rescued" the Lakers. He scored 11 of his 25 points in the final period, including two jumpshots and two free throws with around 3 minutes to go to stem the tide and extend L.As lead to 8 points in what was effectively the series clinching game.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=BHswAAAAIBAJ&sjid=76oFAAAAIBAJ&pg=859,7273107&dq=lakers+pistons&hl=en


1962 Finals, game 3, Celtics.

The famous steal. With the Lakers down 113-115 with only seconds remaining in the 4th quarter, West drove to the rim, drew a foul from Bill Russell and displayed his ice coolness by burying two free throws to tie the game with 3 seconds left. But that wasn't all. The Celtics called a timeout to move the ball up to half court. Sam Jones was the inbounder. Anticipating the pass to Bob Cousy, West - the greatest pickpocketer of his generation - "flashed in front of Cousy just as the ball was about to reach it's target". With momentum and speed, West dribbled the 45 feet between him and the Celtics net as fast as he could and layed in the game winner "just as the gun sounded".

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=iLBOAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KAEEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7172,4605095&dq=lakers+celtics&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn4H_zMFm7A


1963 WCFs, game 2, Hawks.

The less famous steal. With the Lakers down by 1 point in the dying seconds, West stole "a Hawk" pass, dribbled into scoring range, and swished in the game winning mid-range jumper.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=OLUrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E_8FAAAAIBAJ&pg=7026,2924179&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1963 Finals, game 3, Celtics.

In what was effectively a 'must win' game 3 (L.A were down 0-2), West poured in 15 of his 42 points (17/31 from the field) in the final quarter to help the Lakers overcome a 83-80 deficit at the start of the 4th. Baylor was right there with him, too (38 points, 13 in the 4th). West also had several blocks.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1hYgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=X2YFAAAAIBAJ&pg=869,4610187&dq=lakers+celtics+119+99&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JhpLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=4SINAAAAIBAJ&pg=6933,6177666&dq=lakers+celtics+119+99&hl=en


1965 WCFs, game 2, Bullets.

Even though West had poured in 50 points, and there were only 38 seconds to go in the 4th quarter, L.A were still trailing 114-115. With Baylor sidelined for the remainder the playoffs after shredding his knee cap in game 1, the entire Lakers organisation now rested on Jerry West's shoulders. After working himself to within 15 feet of the Baltimore basket, West threw up a turnaround jumper which bounced off the rim, yet, Somehow, the 6"3 guard still managed to grab the offensive rebound and lay it in for the go ahead/game winner!! I guess things like that can happen when the opposing team has Walt "Defense?" Bellamy as their anchor.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2245&dat=19650406&id=ozgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0jIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=7226,494896
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=7gwwAAAAIBAJ&sjid=HQUEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3566,1435257&dq=lakers+bullets+118+115&hl=en (I can't help but laugh at that picture of West. The illustrator made him look like an escaped mental patient)


1965 WCFs, game 6, Bullets.

Wanting to make up for his poor showing in the last couple of minutes of game 4 (missed a bunch of shots late in a very close game), West closed the rapidly widening door on the scrappy Bullets. After Dan Ohl and Walt Bellamy rallied Baltimore to within 6 points late in the 4th quarter, West made several key plays that iced the game and the series, including a huge momentum changing steal on Ohl as he was driving in for a layup on a fast break, 2 jumpers and 2 free throws in the final 3 minutes and an assist to Gene Wiley.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=DVhJAAAAIBAJ&sjid=FAoNAAAAIBAJ&pg=1607,2812855&dq=lakers+bullets&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pzgzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=0jIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=6932,1117560&dq=117+115+bullets+jerry+west&hl=en


1966 WCFs, game 7, Hawks.

A carbon copy of the '63 finals, game 3. The score was tied 91-91 going into the 4th. West had 13 of his 35 points in the final period and Baylor chipped in with 14 of his 33 to close out the series.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=M6ZQAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-OADAAAAIBAJ&pg=2889,3537348&dq=lakers+hawks+130+121&hl=en


1966 Finals, game 1, Celtics.

West scored 9 of his 41 points in the 'do or die' overtime to cap a brilliant 18 point comeback by the Lakers after Sam Jones had hit a game tying layup with seconds left in regulation. Boston threatened to spoil the party when Russell's hook shot and Tom Sander's bucket brought them back to within 1 point late in the OT, but West converted an offensive rebound, hit a 25 footer and made a layup just before the buzzer.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-rcRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=D-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6800,1099085&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1966 Finals, game 5, Celtics.

With just 35 seconds remaining in the 'absolute must win' game 5, and the score tied at 115, West nailed a go ahead/game winning corner jumper, and then made a pair of free throws to make sure of the win.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ZJwoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=TMkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3362,5257011&dq=121+117+jerry+west&hl=en


1966 Finals, game 6, Celtics.

With the Lakers entire season once again on the line, West hit "3 vital shots" near the end of a close, back and forth final quarter to give L.A the game winning lead.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jkMaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UCQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6261,2030066&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YS4dAAAAIBAJ&sjid=DIwEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7137,3723719&dq=123+115+jerry+west&hl=en


1967.

A severe ankle sprain kept West out of the 1st two games of the playoffs and then he broke his left hand just 56 seconds into game 3. The Lakers were swept by the Warriors.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=b7UzAAAAIBAJ&sjid=2jIHAAAAIBAJ&pg=7014,6345616&dq=lakers+warriors&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9etXAAAAIBAJ&sjid=6ugDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7034,4022250&dq=lakers+warriors+122+115&hl=en


1968 WCSFs, game 4, Bulls.

There were no crunch time heroics here (They weren't needed) but this game was a prime example of Jerry West's defensive prowess. After Flynn Robinson lit up Goodrich and Baylor for 41 points in the game 3 Chicago win, the job of slowing him down became Jerry West's. To say that he put the clamps on Robinson would be an understatement. With West shadowing him from the opening tip, Robinson could only muster 8 worthless points in a comfortable Laker victory.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-iVIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=WAANAAAAIBAJ&pg=2648,3738753&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=k7VWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=gOkDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7129,4869760&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1968 WCFs, game 3, Warriors.

In the effectively series clinching game 3 that went right down to the wire, West hit 6 of the Lakers last 8 points, bringing his total for the game to 40. Ho hum.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8WQhAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JIcFAAAAIBAJ&pg=1076,2264332&dq=lakers+warriors+jerry+west&hl=en


continuing....

[oolalaa]

....continued....


1969 Finals, game 1, Celtics.

53 points, 10 assists and a 4th quarter comeback engineered by West was the catalyst for Bill Russell to exclaim "I have never seen a better clutch player than Jerry West" immediately following the Celtics loss. After a back and forth first 3 quarters that saw 21 lead changes, Boston, on the back of Havlicek's relentless scoring, managed to eek ahead by 7 points with just 10 minutes remaining. It was West's seventeen 4th quarter points that brought the Lakers back into it, and they were just 1 point behind with around 2 minutes to go. West then put the finishing touches on his vituoso performance by making back to back elbow jumpers and burying 2 crucial free throws that put L.A up by 3 points with 4 seconds left.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=Vz0mAAAAIBAJ&sjid=w_4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1067,518998&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=f7VWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=d-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6591,3565561&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=VktSAAAAIBAJ&sjid=yXsDAAAAIBAJ&pg=7208,2742452&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JBsqAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ISgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4557,1765932&dq=120+118+jerry+west&hl=en


1969 Finals, game 7, Celtics.

The season long fued between Wilt Chamberlain and Butch van Breda Kolff (Caused mostly by Wilt) finally came to a head. After jarring his knee with around 5 minutes left in the final period, Wilt wanted out of the game, which Breda Kolff duly granted. But when Wilt asked to come back in a couple of minutes later Breda Kolff ignored him before finally declaring "We're playing better without you" (To be fair, they were). Whilst all this was going on, West, still playing with a sore left hamstring, was single handily leading a furious Laker charge. Seemingly every trip down the court he was swishing mid range jumper after mid range jumper or getting to the line and making free throw after free throw (5/7 FGs & 7/9 FTs in the 4th), until, finally, running out of steam with around 3 minutes left. The Celtics, of course, ran away with it from there. West, who finished with a 42/13/12, deserved a little help.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=l9hVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=CeEDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6707,1220561&dq=108+106+jerry+west&hl=en
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6525889&postcount=1


1970 Finals, game 3, Knicks.

A once in a decade shot that West shot in the wrong decade. With a 3 point line, his 55 foot buzzer beater would have won the game, and maybe even the series, for the aging Los Angeles Lakers. Unfortunately, it merely tied it at 102 all, and the Knicks ran away with it in the overtime. By the way, West played the whole of the 2nd half with a badly jammed left thumb and scored 15 of his 34 points in the 4th quarter to "hold off" the rallying Knicks.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=utwLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=UlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4028,233178&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txl1_sVerNk


1970 Finals, game 4, Knicks.

Playing 52 out of a possible 53 minutes with a bandaged left thumb, West chucked up 37 points & 18 assists, made every single one of his last 8 shots and scored 6 crucial points in the overtime to lead L.A to a series tying win. Baylor (2 free throws to tie the game with 23 seconds left in regulation and 9 points in OT) and the little known John Tresvant (3 points, 3 rebounds, 2 assists & 2 steals in the last 6 minutes) provided valuable support.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rABYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E_cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6412,4250587&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1971.

West tore his right knee ligaments on March 2nd after getting tangled up lunging for a loose ball. He missed the entire playoffs.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1817&dat=19710303&id=ZRYfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=G5wEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5168,453026


1972 WCFs, game 6, Bucks.

After a woeful 3rd quarter (A theme for West in the '72 playoffs), West got his act together in the final period. In tandem with Wilt, he headed a rallying sugre that led the Lakers back from a 10 point deficit. Wilt kickstarted it, but West applied the finishing touches with 12 points in the final 5 and a half minutes, including the tying basket with 2 minutes left and 2 free throws with 45 seconds left that helped ice the game and the series.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dWYfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=u9QEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4468,5813233&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=b8gtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Tp4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=876,3469550&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1972 Finals, game 4, Knicks.

West summed up his perpetual shooting woes after the Lakers game 2 victory - "I feel like a hitter in baseball at the plate with a pencil in my hands". Inexplicably, for 6 weeks beginning with game 1 of the playoffs vs Chicago, one of the best pure shooters of his generation slumped like never before. It was so bad, in fact, that he was receiving numerous letters and suggestions from fans offering guidance and reasons as to why he might be shooting so poorly. Mercifully, the slump abated for the last few minutes of game 4. The Knicks were ahead by 7 points just over mid way through the 4th quarter (Partly becuase of West's horrendous 3rd period) but West made key buckets in the last 4 minutes of regulation (He hit a go ahead shot with 11 seconds to play which would have been the game winner if Frazier didn't tip in DeBusschere's miss) and scored 5 points in the OT, including the go ahead/game winning free throws with a minute to go to.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dSNCAAAAIBAJ&sjid=xqoMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5522,1903744&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=qIBIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Lm0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=3785,165042&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pm1IAAAAIBAJ&sjid=61cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4746,1148940&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1973 WCSFs, game 1, Bulls.

"West takes charge as usual". After Chicago's Bob Love made 2 free throws at the end of regulation to send it into overtime, West scored 7 of the Lakers 13 points to make sure the Lakers opened their title defense with a win.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=aBpHAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9HsMAAAAIBAJ&pg=3147,5459871&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1973 WCFs, game 1, Warriors.

After shooting a horrid 2 for 15 from the floor through the first 3 quarters, West "came through when the Lakers needed it" to cap a 9 point 4th quarter Laker comeback. West, who had 11 of his 17 points in the final period, nailed a game winning 15 foot baseline jumper with only 8 seconds to go.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-UYdAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8lMEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7247,549555&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rVwiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=oKwFAAAAIBAJ&pg=730,4874563


1973 WCFs, game 2, Warriors.

Tie game going into the 4th, West scores 14 of his 36 points in the final quarter as L.A outscored Golden State 27-16 on the way to a comfortable win. Wilt chipped in with 12 rebounds and stellar defense, too.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SvEoAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-X0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6894,5345888&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=fNNWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=dUINAAAAIBAJ&pg=3124,4781892&dq=jerry+west&hl=en


1974.

An abdominal strain that had kept West out of the team since Feb 5th prevented him from playing the first 2 games vs the Bucks. He played 14 minutes in the 3rd game (Which L.A won) but missed the rest of the seres The Lakers lost in 5 games.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=AVwaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9igEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7148,4722930&dq=jerry+west+injuries&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YloaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8CgEAAAAIBAJ&pg=7254,896123&dq=jerry+west&hl=en

[Harison]

No wonder West was named Mr. Clutch :bowdown:

Thanks for posting!

[blablabla]

http://www.zf.com/media/media/img_1/brands_1/sachs/products_sachs/clutches_sachs/clutch_kit_600x554_PC_SACHS.jpg
this clutch

[blacknapalm]

http://www.zf.com/media/media/img_1/brands_1/sachs/products_sachs/clutches_sachs/clutch_kit_600x554_PC_SACHS.jpg
this clutch

:lol actually had to replace that in my truck a few months ago. it was a bitch...took nearly two weeks (ran into other issues) but worth it for not having to pay a mechanic

anyway, good post OP. west definitely had his share of clutch moments

[L.Kizzle]

Behind Sam Jones ...

[kizut1659]

how truly good can someone be when you lose in 8(?) finals and the one time that your team does win, you play poorly?

[Thorn]

Wow, I've always been a huge Jerry West fan and knew of a lot of clutch moments (particularly in the finals against Boston and the Knicks), but there's some little seen information in there. Thanks for posting!

[SuperPippen]

how truly good can someone be when you lose in 8(?) finals and the one time that your team does win, you play poorly?

Extremely good. As in, top 15 of all time, 3rd best shooting guard of all time good.

West was an unfortunate victim of the Russell dynasty. Same way guys like Malone and Barkley were unfortunate victims of the Jordan dynasty.


And terrific thread, OP. I can't wait to read all of the information that you have put forth. I've always wanted to know more about West's career.

:applause:

[chips93]

how truly good can someone be when you lose in 8(?) finals and the one time that your team does win, you play poorly?


because the other team was just a lot better than yours

:confusedshrug:

[oolalaa]

how truly good can someone be when you lose in 8(?) finals and the one time that your team does win, you play poorly?

It's very simple....bad timing and bad luck.


Imagine if Kobe's '08-'10 Lakers had to go up against the '08 Celtics in the finals every single year. How many rings would Kobe have? That's what West faced in '62, '63, '65 & '66, only worse. Boston, led by arguably the greatest player of all time, were FAVOURITES in every single finals until '69.

Also, don't forget, the Lakers were Elgin Baylor's team until 1963. He was their best player and their leader (Even though he wasn't an especially inspirational one). He would often take a back seat to Baylor down the stretch of games.

In '65, with Baylor shredding his knee cap in the very 1st game of the playoffs, West single handily led L.A to the finals by averaging over 46ppg for entire 6 game series (A record that still stands) against Walt Bellamy's Bullets. It would have been one of the biggest upsets in NBA history if the Lakers beat Boston.

In '66, West's late game heroics saved the Lakers season twice, in games 5 & 6, when Boston were up 3-1. He was brilliant in the first 4 games, too. He was held to just 2 field goals in the 1st half of game 7, however, as Boston claimed a big, almost insurmountable, lead by halftime. So some blame has to go to him there.

In '68, West sprained his ankle at the end of game 4, with the series tied 2-2, and was sub par in the final close out game 6 (He had 35 points in game 5, though, and nailed a game tying shot with less than a minute to go before Hondo put them ahead).

In '69, the entire Laker team vomited all over themselves. It's a farce that West didn't win a ring here. Blame Wilt, Baylor and their coach.

In '70, West, playing with a badly jammed thumb from game 3 onwards, was phenomenal the entire series. The Knicks crushed the entire Laker team in the 1st half of game 7. Walt Frazier and co just weren't missing. And, again, this was an ALL TIME great team. West only played against 2 different teams in all his finals appearances (Celtics and Knicks). They happened to be 2 of the greatest dynasties of all time. And only twice were the Lakers favoured to win ('69 and '72).

In '73, West was dogged by pulled hamstrings in both legs the entire series. And the Knicks were a much deeper team, anyway.



Jerry West was one of the unluckier players of all time....

[Deuce Bigalow]

It's very simple....bad timing and bad luck.


Imagine if Kobe's '08-'10 Lakers had to go up against the '08 Celtics in the finals every single year. How many rings would Kobe have? That's what West faced in '62, '63, '65 & '66, only worse. Boston were FAVOURITES in every single finals until '69.

Also, don't forget, the Lakers were Elgin Baylor's team until 1963. He was their best player and their leader (Even though he wasn't an especially inspirational one). He would often take a back seat to Baylor down the stretch of games.

In '65, with Baylor shredding his knee cap in the very 1st game of the playoffs, West single handily led L.A to the finals by averaging over 46ppg for entire 6 game series (A record that still stands) against Walt Bellamy's Bullets. It would have been one of the biggest upsets in NBA history if the Lakers beat Boston.

In '66, West's late game heroics saved the Lakers season twice, in games 5 & 6, when Boston were up 3-1. He was brilliant in the first 4 games, too. He was held to just 2 points in the 1st half of game 7, however, as Boston claimed a big, almost insurmountable lead by halftime. So some blame has to go to him there.

In '68, West sprained his ankle at the end of game 4, with the series tied 2-2, and was sub par in the final close out game 6 (He had 35 points in game 5, though, and nailed a game tying shot with less than a minute to go before Hondo put them ahead).

In '69, the entire Laker team vomited all over themselves. It's a farce that West didn't win a ring here. Blame Wilt, Baylor and their coach.

In '70, West, playing with a badly jammed thumb from game 3 onwards, was phenomenal the entire series. The Knicks crushed the entire Laker team in the 1st half of game 7. Walt Frazier and co just weren't missing. And, again, this was an ALL TIME great team. West only played against 2 different teams in all his finals appearances (Celtics and Knicks). They happened to be 2 of the greatest dynasties of all time. And only twice were they favoured to win ('69 and '72).

In '73, West was dogged by pulled hamstrings in both legs the entire series



Jerry West was one of the unluckier players of all time....
It has begun

[oolalaa]

Behind Sam Jones ...

I doubt it....

[oolalaa]

It has begun

Maybe he wouldn't have noticed if you didn't point it out with large, bold letters!!! :oldlol:

[blacknapalm]

It has begun

:oldlol: somewhere an alarm is going off in jlauber's basement

[jlauber]

It's very simple....bad timing and bad luck.


Imagine if Kobe's '08-'10 Lakers had to go up against the '08 Celtics in the finals every single year. How many rings would Kobe have? That's what West faced in '62, '63, '65 & '66, only worse. Boston were FAVOURITES in every single finals until '69.

Also, don't forget, the Lakers were Elgin Baylor's team until 1963. He was their best player and their leader (Even though he wasn't an especially inspirational one). He would often take a back seat to Baylor down the stretch of games.

In '65, with Baylor shredding his knee cap in the very 1st game of the playoffs, West single handily led L.A to the finals by averaging over 46ppg for entire 6 game series (A record that still stands) against Walt Bellamy's Bullets. It would have been one of the biggest upsets in NBA history if the Lakers beat Boston.

In '66, West's late game heroics saved the Lakers season twice, in games 5 & 6, when Boston were up 3-1. He was brilliant in the first 4 games, too. He was held to just 2 field goals in the 1st half of game 7, however, as Boston claimed a big, almost insurmountable lead by halftime. So some blame has to go to him there.

In '68, West sprained his ankle at the end of game 4, with the series tied 2-2, and was sub par in the final close out game 6 (He had 35 points in game 5, though, and nailed a game tying shot with less than a minute to go before Hondo put them ahead).

In '69, the entire Laker team vomited all over themselves. It's a farce that West didn't win a ring here. Blame Wilt, Baylor and their coach.

In '70, West, playing with a badly jammed thumb from game 3 onwards, was phenomenal the entire series. The Knicks crushed the entire Laker team in the 1st half of game 7. Walt Frazier and co just weren't missing. And, again, this was an ALL TIME great team. West only played against 2 different teams in all his finals appearances (Celtics and Knicks). They happened to be 2 of the greatest dynasties of all time. And only twice were they favoured to win ('69 and '72).

In '73, West was dogged by pulled hamstrings in both legs the entire series. And the Knicks were a much deeper team, anyway.



Jerry West was one of the unluckier players of all time....

While it was Wilt's worst post-season, the majority of the blame lies in one of the most incompetent coach's in NBA history. All anyone needs to know about that idiot lies in this famous line, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."

And one of the best examples of his horrible coaching (in a series, and even an entire SEASON) filled with them, came early in the fourth quarter of game seven. Russell had just picked up his 5th personal foul, and LA immediately went into Wilt, who went right around the defenseless Russell for an easy basket. That was about the last time Wilt would touch the ball in that period.

Furthermore, you made a comment that LA was playing better without Wilt. Completely false. Boston had a 17 point lead with ten minutes remaining. The Lakers staged a furious comeback, and when Wilt left the game, LA had cut the deficit to seven...or 10 points knocked off in about five minutes, and with five minutes remaining.

Then, Chamberlain's replacement, the legendary Mel Counts, who would shoot 4-13 from the field in that game, missed a horrible shot late, and committed a ghastly turnover near the end of the game.

You want BLAME in that series? Aside from an absolute joke of a coach, look no further than Elgin Baylor. Baylor shot 4-14 from the field in a six point, game three loss, in which he and WEST combined to shoot 1-14 from the floor in the 4th quarter. Then, as bad as that was, Baylor "bounced back" in a ONE point, game four loss, with a 2-12 shooting game from the field, AND also a 1-6 performance from the LINE. Then, in that game seven, two point loss, Baylor shot 8-22 from the field. BTW, Chamberlain shot .875 from the field in that game seven, and his Laker teammates collectively shot .360.

And, not only did Van Breda Kolf completely blow that game seven, by keeping Wilt on the bench, but how about the most pivotal SINGLE PLAY in the entire series? The Lakers led the series, 2-1, and were leading 88-87 with 15 seconds to play, and had the BALL. Now, who would you have handling the ball in the last 15 seconds of a one point game? Well, guess what, Van Breda Kolf did NOT have West doing it. Instead, he had Johnny Egan, who was the only crappy player that he could find to replace Archie Clark (lost in the Wilt trade), and Goodrich (lost in the expansion draft.) Of course Egan was stripped of the ball, and of course, Sam Jones, while falling down, hit the winning shot at the buzzer. Given the fact that LA easily won game five...that ONE PLAY cost the Lakers a 4-1 series romp.

Incidently, footage of the entire 4th quarter is available on YouTube. I have never had an answer to this simple question...where was RUSSELL in that period? He was nowhere to be found. In fact, Chamberlain, on his injured leg, pulled down as many rebounds on his two straight possessions, two, as Russell had in the entire period (Wilt, in his seven minutes, outrebounded Russell, in his 12, by a 7-2 margin in that quarter.)

BTW, Chamberlain outscored Russell in that game seven, 18-6; outshot Russell from the field, 7-8 to 2-7; and outrebounded him, 27-21...all while playing five minutes less.


And, as a sidenote, to the "clutch" Jerry West. In the one post-season in which he finally won a ring...his team won that title DESPITE his awful shooting. He shot .376 in his entire post-season, and an absolute horrid .325 in the Finals. So, he should have thanked Chamberlain for that one ring. Wilt mowed down Kareem in the WCF's, and then dominated in the Finals...en route to a FMVP (19.4 ppg, 23.2 rpg, and on .600 shooting.) Oh, and in the clinching game six in the WCF's, Wilt was magnificent, dominating Kareem down the stretch, and leading his team back from a 10 point 4th quarter deficit. Then, in the clinching game five of the Finals, all Wilt did (and with two badly injured wrists) was to score 24 points, on 10-14 shooting, with 29 rebounds, and 10 blocked shots.

And how about this? In their last game together, in the '73 Finals, while West couldn't shoot for his life (5-17), Chamberlain put up a 23 point, 21 rebound, 9-16 shooting game.

[L.Kizzle]

I doubt it....
I'm real.

[jlauber]

BTW, and as is almost ALWAYS the case, it was not I who brought Wilt into this topic first.

But, I will not sit idly by and let a "Simmons apostle" blast Chamberlain in a series in which it was CLEARLY Wilt's COACH and Wilt's TEAMMATE (Baylor) who "vomited" in that series. And once again, and as was almost always the case in his 29 post-season series, Wilt OUTPLAYED his OPPOSING center in that series.

The "Wilt-bashers" are quick to point out his "decline" in the post-season (absolutely laughable BTW...and I will address this in yet ANOTHER topic on that subject soon...with some eye-opening numbers)...they NEVER point out that, as ALWAYS, Chamberlain outplayed his opposing centers, and was BIGGER in the BIGGEST games of those series, as well.

[RRR3]

Jlauber don't respond to people trying to get a reaction or they'll keep doing it

[oolalaa]

Here's one more I overlooked that I think is worth posting....


1972 WCFs, game 6, Bucks.

After a woeful 3rd quarter (A theme for West in the '72 playoffs), West got his act together in the final period. In tandem with Wilt, he headed a rallying sugre that led the Lakers back from a 10 point deficit. Wilt kickstarted it, but West applied the finishing touches with 12 points in the final 5 and a half minutes, including the tying basket with 2 minutes left and 2 free throws with 45 seconds left that helped ice the game and the series.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=dWYfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=u9QEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4468,5813233&dq=jerry+west&hl=en
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=b8gtAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Tp4FAAAAIBAJ&pg=876,3469550&dq=jerry+west&hl=en

[oolalaa]

BTW, and as is almost ALWAYS the case, it was not I who brought Wilt into this topic first.

But, I will not sit idly by and let a "Simmons apostle" blast Chamberlain in a series in which it was CLEARLY Wilt's COACH and Wilt's TEAMMATE (Baylor) who "vomited" in that series. And once again, and as was almost always the case in his 29 post-season series, Wilt OUTPLAYED his OPPOSING center in that series.

The "Wilt-bashers" are quick to point out his "decline" in the post-season (absolutely laughable BTW...and I will address this in yet ANOTHER topic on that subject soon...with some eye-opening numbers)...they NEVER point out that, as ALWAYS, Chamberlain outplayed his opposing centers, and was BIGGER in the BIGGEST games of those series, as well.

****ing moron. GTFO of this thread.

[oolalaa]

Jlauber don't respond to people trying to get a reaction or they'll keep doing it

I sincerely WISH I hadn't mentioned his god damn name.

[Alter Ego]

All in all, let's be real. These guys back in the day weren't as good as the guys today. The guys today are just a lot more gifted, talented and would dominate these guys. Jerry West in his day Would NOT be an All Star today. Mikan, etc.

There are exceptions. Wilt, for example, would still be a great player in todays league. He would be something like Tyson Chandler.

[jlauber]

****ing moron. GTFO of this thread.

Look, I have read some of your posts where you almost directly quote that idiot.

I usually have a lot of respect for your posts, even when I don't agree with them, but to blatantly blame Wilt for losing that series (and to make comments like "it was mostly Wilt's fault", or "they were playing better without him"), when they clearly were not true is just not acceptable.

I will agree that it was Wilt's worst post-season, but he was severely shackled by an incompetent COACH, who preferred the shot-jacking Baylor to the game's greatest offensive player in NBA history. And the result? Baylor shot a team WORST .385 in that post-season, and single-handedly lost THREE games for LA in that series.

Interesting too, that after the Lakers fired Van Breda Kolf (almost to the minute after that game)...their new coach, Joe Mullaney, immediately went to Wilt before the start of the next season, and asked that he become the focal point of the offense. Chamberlain responded by LEADING the league in scoring, and at 32.2 ppg (while West was at 30.8 ppg) and on .579 shooting, in their first nine games. Unfortunately, Chamberlain shredded his knee, and was never the same again.

In any case, to go from 13.9 ppg to 32.2 ppg in a course of 18 games in the '69 playoffs, to those nine games in '70, was a true testament to the COACHING styles.

[TheBigVeto]

He is overrated because he is a Laker, but he is more clutch than Wilt for sure.

[fpliii]

Behind Sam Jones ...

from the reading I've done, this might be the case

it appears that Sam Jones might've been the tipping factor in a lot of these close Celtics postseason contests...I haven't been keeping count in my research on other players, but it seems like he had 25-30 playoff game winners, conservatively speaking

in a league where the best teams only played two rounds most seasons, that's truly remarkable

[jlauber]

It's very simple....bad timing and bad luck.


Imagine if Kobe's '08-'10 Lakers had to go up against the '08 Celtics in the finals every single year. How many rings would Kobe have? That's what West faced in '62, '63, '65 & '66, only worse. Boston, led by arguably the greatest player of all time, were FAVOURITES in every single finals until '69.

Also, don't forget, the Lakers were Elgin Baylor's team until 1963. He was their best player and their leader (Even though he wasn't an especially inspirational one). He would often take a back seat to Baylor down the stretch of games.

In '65, with Baylor shredding his knee cap in the very 1st game of the playoffs, West single handily led L.A to the finals by averaging over 46ppg for entire 6 game series (A record that still stands) against Walt Bellamy's Bullets. It would have been one of the biggest upsets in NBA history if the Lakers beat Boston.

In '66, West's late game heroics saved the Lakers season twice, in games 5 & 6, when Boston were up 3-1. He was brilliant in the first 4 games, too. He was held to just 2 field goals in the 1st half of game 7, however, as Boston claimed a big, almost insurmountable, lead by halftime. So some blame has to go to him there.

In '68, West sprained his ankle at the end of game 4, with the series tied 2-2, and was sub par in the final close out game 6 (He had 35 points in game 5, though, and nailed a game tying shot with less than a minute to go before Hondo put them ahead).

In '69, the entire Laker team vomited all over themselves. It's a farce that West didn't win a ring here. Blame Wilt, Baylor and their coach.

In '70, West, playing with a badly jammed thumb from game 3 onwards, was phenomenal the entire series. The Knicks crushed the entire Laker team in the 1st half of game 7. Walt Frazier and co just weren't missing. And, again, this was an ALL TIME great team. West only played against 2 different teams in all his finals appearances (Celtics and Knicks). They happened to be 2 of the greatest dynasties of all time. And only twice were the Lakers favoured to win ('69 and '72).

In '73, West was dogged by pulled hamstrings in both legs the entire series. And the Knicks were a much deeper team, anyway.



Jerry West was one of the unluckier players of all time....

Gotta love that answer too. Chamberlain had even more of that in his post-season career, but you have basically claimed that he was a "choker" in MANY of your posts. Even though he was arguably an even bigger BIG game performer, especially when you factor in that he was generally outplaying his opposing centers by large margins in those BIG games.

The famous WILT DOUBLE STANDARD...

[jlauber]

He is overrated because he is a Laker, but he is more clutch than Wilt for sure.

Go ahead and give me your PROOF.

In the biggest games of their careers..."must-win" and "series clinchers", I would put Chamberlain's ENTIRE resume up against ANY other all-time great. And, BTW, he was more of a "winner" than West was, as well. In fact, it was because of WILT that West even got his only ring. He certainly did all he could to lose it in that post-season...

[jlip]

Behind Sam Jones ...

from the reading I've done, this might be the case

it appears that Sam Jones might've been the tipping factor in a lot of these close Celtics postseason contests...I haven't been keeping count in my research on other players, but it seems like he had 25-30 playoff game winners, conservatively speaking

in a league where the best teams only played two rounds most seasons, that's truly remarkable

At one point, we won a total of eight consecutive NBA championships, and six times during that run we asked Sam to take the shot that meant the season. If he didn't hit the shot we were finished and we were going home empty-handed. He never missed." -Bill Russell
source (http://www.game7.com/sam-jones.php)

[oolalaa]

Gotta love that answer too. Chamberlain had even more of that in his post-season career, but you have basically claimed that he was a "choker" in MANY of your posts. Even though he was arguably an even bigger BIG game performer, especially when you factor in that he was generally outplaying his opposing centers by large margins in those BIG games.

The famous WILT DOUBLE STANDARD...


Look, I have read some of your posts where you almost directly quote that idiot.

I usually have a lot of respect for your posts, even when I don't agree with them, but to blatantly blame Wilt for losing that series (and to make comments like "it was mostly Wilt's fault", or "they were playing better without him"), when they clearly were not true is just not acceptable.

I will agree that it was Wilt's worst post-season, but he was severely shackled by an incompetent COACH, who preferred the shot-jacking Baylor to the game's greatest offensive player in NBA history. And the result? Baylor shot a team WORST .385 in that post-season, and single-handedly lost THREE games for LA in that series.

Interesting too, that after the Lakers fired Van Breda Kolf (almost to the minute after that game)...their new coach, Joe Mullaney, immediately went to Wilt before the start of the next season, and asked that he become the focal point of the offense. Chamberlain responded by LEADING the league in scoring, and at 32.2 ppg (while West was at 30.8 ppg) and on .579 shooting, in their first nine games. Unfortunately, Chamberlain shredded his knee, and was never the same again.

In any case, to go from 13.9 ppg to 32.2 ppg in a course of 18 games in the '69 playoffs, to those nine games in '70, was a true testament to the COACHING styles.

You are a freaking idiot. You lump anyone who dares to critizise Wilt into one giant "Wilt hating", "Double standard", "Simmons Apostle" mosh pit. It doesn't matter that I've repeatedly said OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again that Wilt was NOT (!!!!) a choker, but rather, he didn't do enough to win. You don't care about that, because, like I said, you're a ****ing moron.

Postng 3 or 4 quotes from Simmons book a grand total of ONE TIME (!!!!) does NOT make me an "apostle". I'm nobody's apostle. I HATE the connotations of that word.

Where do I rank Wilt and where do I rank West on all time lists?? In entirely different tiers. I currently have Wilt 4 places ahead of West and no one could ever convince me that West was in any way greater than Wilt. When I call Jerry West "unlucky", and abstain from granting Wilt the same courtesy, it's because 1. Wilt was a much more talented all round player and 2. For a lot of his career, and especialy between '68 & '70, Wilt didn't do enough in the key periods of big games. Someone with Wilt's abilities should have won a little more (PLEASE, PLEASE don't respond to this. Make a seperate ****ing thread if you have to. You've derailed this one enough. I want to keep it focused on Jerry West).

I've posted about the '69 finals numerous times so I'm not going to repsond to anything here. At least not directly to you.


This is the last time I'm responding to you.

[KOBE143]

He was one of the best but Wilt always find a way to choke the game.. I feel bad for Mr. Logo for having one of the greatest PO choker as teammate..

[oolalaa]

from the reading I've done, this might be the case

it appears that Sam Jones might've been the tipping factor in a lot of these close Celtics postseason contests...I haven't been keeping count in my research on other players, but it seems like he had 25-30 playoff game winners, conservatively speaking

in a league where the best teams only played two rounds most seasons, that's truly remarkable

Are you serious? Is that even possible?? I knew Jones was insanely clutch....but that clutch?? :eek:

I've counted 9 game winning or go ahead/game winning shots by West during his playoff career (He may have had 1 or 2 more. I'll have to double check). That, of course, is not counting the game tying shots, of which there were several.

[jlauber]

He was one of the best but Wilt always find a way to choke the game.. I feel bad for Mr. Logo for having one of the greatest PO choker as teammate..

Here again...PROVE IT. BTW, Chamberlain had a FAR greater impact than your boy Kobe in the post-season. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in Wilt's playoff career which approached Kobe's horrific shooting CAREER Finals FG%.

Choking? Look no further than Kober single-handedly shooting his FAVORED Laker team out of the '04 Finals with his .387 FG%. And his effort in the '08 Finals was nearly as bad.

[Math2]

Great post. Love all the information you researched.....

Repped :)

[Lebron23]

Here again...PROVE IT. BTW, Chamberlain had a FAR greater impact than your boy Kobe in the post-season. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in Wilt's playoff career which approached Kobe's horrific shooting CAREER Finals FG%.

Choking? Look no further than Kober single-handedly shooting his FAVORED Laker team out of the '04 Finals with his .387 FG%. And his effort in the '08 Finals was nearly as bad.


Thank you for owning that Kobetard. Just put him on your ignore lists. He's a useless poster.

[oolalaa]

Extremely good. As in, top 15 of all time, 3rd best shooting guard of all time good.

West was an unfortunate victim of the Russell dynasty. Same way guys like Malone and Barkley were unfortunate victims of the Jordan dynasty.


And terrific thread, OP. I can't wait to read all of the information that you have put forth. I've always wanted to know more about West's career.

:applause:

I personally have West 1 spot higher than Kobe on my all time list. The ONLY thing Kobe has on West as an individual player is athleticism, but West's relentless/fearless will made up for a lot of that (He got to the free throw line 12.4 times a game in '66!). Sure, Kobe has 4 more rings, but West was a FAR, FAR superior finals performer than Kobe has ever been.

West had to go up against the greatest dynasty of all time year, after year, after year, too, and was putting up BIG numbers and clutch performances. West really couldn't have done too much more than he did throughout his career.

I'll probably be posting a couple of threads soon, detailing why I think West deserves to be ahead of Kobe and in EVERYONE'S top 10 greatest players....

[jlauber]

Incidently, if folks don't want to read about Wilt in these topics, then please, don't post anything about him in them either (especially complete falsehoods.)

[oolalaa]

No wonder West was named Mr. Clutch

Thanks for posting!


Great post. Love all the information you researched.....

Repped :)

Thanks. Appreciate it. It was fun to research....

[KOBE143]

Here again...PROVE IT. BTW, Chamberlain had a FAR greater impact than your boy Kobe in the post-season. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in Wilt's playoff career which approached Kobe's horrific shooting CAREER Finals FG%.

Choking? Look no further than Kober single-handedly shooting his FAVORED Laker team out of the '04 Finals with his .387 FG%. And his effort in the '08 Finals was nearly as bad.
Kobe 26ppg in the PO including his first 3 season as a teenager..
Will 20ppg in the PO, 10 less point than his regular season average..

Guess whos the choker?

[jlauber]

Kobe 26ppg in the PO including his first 3 season as a teenager..
Will 20ppg in the PO, 10 less point than his regular season average..

Guess whos the choker?

I don't want to derail this topic any further except to say that Wilt had post-seasons of as high as 37 ppg, post-season series as high as 39 ppg, and in his first 67 career playoff games, he AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot .515 ...COMBINED (and 35 of those games were against the greatest defensive center in NBA history.) And, BTW, Kobe had ONE 50 point playoff game...Wilt had FOUR (including THREE in "must-win" situations.)

[RRR3]

I swear every thread gets derailed these days. Sorry oolala you tried interesting thread sorry it got derailed.

[jlauber]

I swear every thread gets derailed these days. Sorry oolala you tried interesting thread sorry it got derailed.

He didn't help his own cause by taking a pot shot at Wilt, either. I swear, in almost every thread, someone ELSE brings up Wilt...and usually in a disparaging manner.

[RRR3]

He didn't help his own cause by taking a pot shot at Wilt, either.
Don't think he meant it to be taken the way you took it.

[KOBE143]

I don't want to derail this topic any further except to say that Wilt had post-seasons of as high as 37 ppg, post-season series as high as 39 ppg, and in his first 67 career playoff games, he AVERAGED 30 ppg, 27 rpg, 5 apg, and shot .515 ...COMBINED (and 35 of those games were against the greatest defensive center in NBA history.) And, BTW, Kobe had ONE 50 point playoff game...Wilt had FOUR (including THREE in "must-win" situations.)
He put that numbers in a weak era.. Btw how many rings did he get with those numbers? Wilt is the definition of stat pad but if the game is on the line he usually disappeared and choked..

[jlauber]

Don't think he meant it to be taken the way you took it.

Believe me, he did.

[jlauber]

He put that numbers in a weak era.. Btw how many rings did he get with those numbers? Wilt is the definition of stat pad but if the game is on the line he usually disappeared and choked..

Once again...provide PROOF.

[KOBE143]

Once again...provide PROOF.
2 rings, 1fmvp in a weak era compared to Russell 11 rings eventhough he was the better talent and player than Bill..
30ppg regular season avg to 20ppg PO avg.. Among the top ten only Wilt has the biggest drop off in ppg to season to PO..

This alone will prove Wilt was a choker..

[jlauber]

2 rings, 1fmvp in a weak era compared to Russell 11 rings eventhough he was the better talent and player than Bill..
30ppg regular season avg to 20ppg PO avg.. Among the top ten only Wilt has the biggest drop off in ppg to season to PO..

This alone will prove Wilt was a choker..

If you have the ability, read the following...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=250076

[NumberSix]

too clutch

[jlauber]

Mr. Clutch.

[KOBE143]

Mr. Clutch.
The opposite of Wilt.. Mr. Choker.

[jlauber]

The opposite of Wilt.. Mr. Choker.

Yep. Wilt with FOUR more MVPs, ONE more FMVP (yes he won it in '67), ONE more ring, and he BEAT Russell's Celtics (something West never did.) Oh, and he won one of his FMVPs while playing WITH West (who absolutely blew chunks in that post-season.)

[KOBE143]

Yep. Wilt with FOUR more MVPs, TWO more FMVPS (yes he won it in '67), ONE more ring, and he BEAT Russell's Celtics (something West never did.)
So what? It doesnt change that he was still a choker.. :confusedshrug:

[jongib369]

Yep. Wilt with FOUR more MVPs, ONE more FMVP (yes he won it in '67), ONE more ring, and he BEAT Russell's Celtics (something West never did.) Oh, and he won one of his FMVPs while playing WITH West (who absolutely blew chunks in that post-season.)
haha trust me man you cant waste your time with kobetard's like him...he likes to use

":confusedshrug: " a lot like hes seriously making a point and hes confused...I'm 95% sure he's just trolling because the shit he says about other players especially wilt are so obviously wrong its ridiculous. Correcting respectable posters who bring up in depth stats is one thing...but you have to avoid the tards

[KOBE143]

^Is jlauber your Pops?

[jongib369]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mmCH_1cC75c/TpKtIvdM7AI/AAAAAAAAAgo/SBcGm7p5zY8/s1600/empire%2Bstrikes%2Bback.jpg

[jongib369]

Come to the wilt side