Top 11-20 NBA Players of all time

[jalbert009]

The consensus Top 10 in ISH in no order is usually:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

So, let us discuss our Top 11-20 lists. Here are some of the criteria we should consider.

-Peak Play
-Longetivity
-Over all Impact (Including making team mates better)
-Dominance (Including NBA Accolades)
-Playoffs Success (Not necessarily a Ring)

Here is my List:

11. Oscar Robertson: Still the only player in history to average a triple-double in a season, he averaged 26.5 PPG, 9.5 APG and 7.5 RPG. He won 1 MVP and was a 12x All-Star.

12. Jerry West: He won 1 Championship but made the NBA Finals ten times. He made 13 All-Stars games and averaged 27 PPG, 6.7 APG.

13. Lebron James: He won 1x NBA Championship, 3x MVP and an 8x All-Star.

14. Moses Malone: In 20 years he won 3 MVPs, 11 All-Stars and a NBA championship. He averaged 20.6 PPG and 12.2 RPG.

15. Bob Cousy: He was a 6x NBA Champion, 13-time All-Star and 1x MVP.

16. John Havlicek: He was a 8x NBA Champion, 13x All-Star and made 26k+ career points.

17. Isiah Thomas: He was a 2x NBA Champion, 12x All-Star and averaged 19.2 PPG and 9.3 assists for his career.

18. Julius Erving: He won 1 NBA Championship, 1 MVP and was an 11x All-Star while averaging 22 PPG during his career.

19. David Robinson: He won 2x NBA Championships, 1xMVP, 10x All-stars and 1x DPOY.

20. Kevin Garnett: 1x NBA Champion, 1x MVP, 14x All-Star, 1x DPOY and he led the NBA in rebounds for 4 seasons. He also made it to 12 All NBA defensive Teams.

[Legends66NBA7]

No order:

LeBron James
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Karl Malone
George Mikan
Dirk Nowtizki
Julius Erving

Including what they did in their era. I only feel a bit uncomfortable with my Mikan ranking, but I feel he did a lot too for his era and changed the game.

[fpliii]

did this quickly, let me know if there are any glaring omissions

11 Robertson
12 West
13 LeBron
14 Moses
15 Erving
16 Isiah
17 Havlicek
18 Garnett
19 Wade
20 Dirk
21 Baylor
22 Pippen
23 Robinson
24 Rodman
25 Barkley
26 Drexler
27 Pettit
28 Karl Malone
29 Cousy
30 Stockton

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)

[EnoughSaid]

Just saying that Wade is not there yet, but he is in the Top 25 guaranteed. Another Finals MVP and he jumps in the Top 20 definitely.

[fpliii]

Just saying that Wade is not there yet, but he is in the Top 25 guaranteed. Another Finals MVP and he jumps in the Top 20 definitely.

another FMVP and he's top 15

[StateOfMind12]

11. LeBron James
12. Julius Erving
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Moses Malone
16. Kevin Garnett
17. Karl Malone
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley

I'm stuck in the last three with Dirk, Robinson, and Barkley. I think Robinson is above Barkley but I'm not sure about Dirk and Barkley. I think I might move Robinson above Dirk.

[EnoughSaid]

another FMVP and he's top 15

Especially if he puts up another 25/5/5 season. Dude is going to jump to that 3rd best shooting guard spot. :bowdown:

[fpliii]

Especially if he puts up another 25/5/5 season. Dude is going to jump to that 3rd best shooting guard spot. :bowdown:

he could be there already...it depends on if you classify West as a PG or SG

typically he's placed at the 2, but enough people have him at the point that we can put him in the discussion now :rockon:

two more Finals MVPs, and, well...not gonna get into that because you know in which direction this thread would head :pimp:

[Legends66NBA7]

I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.


Dude is going to jump to that 3rd best shooting guard spot.

Hmm, I don't see it... but more power to them if Wade can keep it up for a couple of years.

[fpliii]

I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.

haven't put much thought into it...11-15, 16-20, 21-30 are the three tiers of this list, ordering within them is relatively arbitrary

EDIT: I think Pippen, Admiral, Barkley are all close to each other, though; as for Zeke, he established himself as a super-elite passing PG, as well as a great first option on a championship team...if he doesn't go down in 88, even with Worthy going nuts, he has another Finals MVP and the Bad Boys have a threepeat

[Legends66NBA7]

haven't put much thought into it...11-15, 16-20, 21-30 are the three tiers of this list, ordering within them is relatively arbitrary

Fair enough.

[fpliii]

Fair enough.

edited my post with Isiah reasoning...in general, I have him multiple echelons above Stockton, to whom he's often compared

[SilkkTheShocker]

did this quickly, let me know if there are any glaring omissions

11 Robertson
12 West
13 LeBron
14 Moses
15 Erving
16 Isiah
17 Havlicek
18 Garnett
19 Wade
20 Dirk
21 Baylor
22 Pippen
23 Robinson
24 Rodman
25 Barkley
26 Drexler
27 Pettit
28 Karl Malone
29 Cousy
30 Stockton

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)


Just curious, but wanted to know your thoughts on Wade over Dirk. Did the 2nd title give him the edge?

[SilkkTheShocker]

I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.



Hmm, I don't see it... but more power to them if Wade can keep it up for a couple of years.


I think Wade is a lock to go down as the 3rd best SG ever. 2 rings and counting, one of the greatest Finals performances, best shot-blocking SG ever, etc. The only thing really hurting him is no MVP award, but I don't think that stops him from going down as the 3rd best.

[fpliii]

Just curious, but wanted to know your thoughts on Wade over Dirk. Did the 2nd title give him the edge?

it didn't make much of a difference, he was already there after last season; Dirk's never had a season like 08-09, and (despite the biased ref claims, which I'm not going to deal with here) Wade had an amazing postseason in 06

Wade's also come close twice...if he doesn't go down in 05 he'd have another ship (Shaq probably wins the Finals MVP that season, I actually think he would've won MVP if he was healthy or if the voting shook out differently, which would've jumped him ahead of Bird AND Kobe); last season LeBron's poor Finals robbed him of a second Finals MVP (he outscored and outshot Dirk for the series, and even though he didn't equal Nowitzki in 4th quarters, he was still HUGE)


I think Wade is a lock to go down as the 3rd best SG ever. 2 rings and counting, one of the greatest Finals performances, best shot-blocking SG ever, etc. The only thing really hurting him is no MVP award, but I don't think that stops him from going down as the 3rd best.

he wins it in 08-09 if LeBron doesn't have an all-time great season...Wade wins the MVP 90% of other seasons

do you count West as a PG or SG? if he's the former, then as I said above, Wade is already 3rd

[jalbert009]

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)

I understand how you feel about that but this is an All-Time List and we cant fault players for playing in a particular era.

[Legends66NBA7]

edited my post with Isiah reasoning...in general, I have him multiple echelons above Stockton, to whom he's often compared

True. I've always thought Zeke > Stockton anyways.

[fpliii]

I understand how you feel about that but this is an All-Time List and we cant fault players for playing in a particular era.

that wasn't a different era, it was a different game entirely

I'm fine agreeing to disagree, but from my understanding the shot clock is a large reason why Mikan retired (though I believe wear-and-tear also played a part)...if he was born 10 years later, I have no reason to believe he'd be any more than a fringe top 10 player in the 60s NBA

[SilkkTheShocker]

it didn't make much of a difference, he was already there after last season; Dirk's never had a season like 08-09, and (despite the biased ref claims, which I'm not going to deal with here) Wade had an amazing postseason in 06

Wade's also come close twice...if he doesn't go down in 05 he'd have another ship (Shaq probably wins the Finals MVP that season, I actually think he would've won MVP if he was healthy or if the voting shook out differently, which would've jumped him ahead of Bird AND Kobe); last season LeBron's poor Finals robbed him of a second Finals MVP (he outscored and outshot Dirk for the series, and even though he didn't equal Nowitzki in 4th quarters, he was still HUGE)



he wins it in 08-09 if LeBron doesn't have an all-time great season...Wade wins the MVP 90% of other seasons

do you count West as a PG or SG? if he's the former, then as I said above, Wade is already 3rd


Agreed with you on all points. People sleep on Wade too much. Loved seeing him dominate the #1 defense Pistons in 06 ECF.

[fpliii]

Agreed with you on all points. People sleep on Wade too much. Loved seeing him dominate the #1 defense Pistons in 06 ECF.

:cheers:

[WockaVodka]

Agreed with you on all points. People sleep on Wade too much. Loved seeing him dominate the #1 defense Pistons in 06 ECF.
They were 5th on d that season, they werne't much of a defense team when saunders took over for brown

[SilkkTheShocker]

They were 5th on d that season, they werne't much of a defense team when saunders took over for brown


Fail on my part. :hammerhead: Still loved seeing him do damage though. I was a big Pistons hater. Liked Big Ben, but couldn't stand that team.

[TylerOO]

Wade is not top 25

[RIP CITY]

Dirk Nowitzki is way the **** overrated if he's cracking Top 20 list, SMH.

[KOBE143]

11 Oscar
12 West
13 Moses
14 Dr. J
15 Sir Charles
16 Karl Malone
17 Garnett
18 Robinson
19 Pippen
20 Dirk
21 Zeke
22 Drexler
23 Stockton
24 Wade
25 Chris Bosh

:D

[JBull]

Dirk Nowitzki is way the **** overrated if he's cracking Top 20 list, SMH.

He is easily top 20.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Can someone explain me why is Dirk so high??? And why is he higher than Wade on almost everybody's list???

[StateOfMind12]

Can someone explain me why is Dirk so high??? And why is he higher than Wade on almost everybody's list???
Wade at his absolute peak was better than Dirk at his absolute peak but Dirk's peak lasted longer. Dirk has just simply put up more dominant seasons than Wade has so far in their careers.

[NiHao]

I put them in tiers, no particular order in one tier.

11-14
11.Moses Malone
12.LeBron James
13.Jerry West
14.George Mikan

15-25
15.Julius Erving
16.Oscar Robertson
17.Karl Malone
18.Bob Pettit
19.Isiah Thomas
20.Bob Cousy
21.Charles Barkley
22.Dirk Nowitzki
23.Kevin Garnett
24.John Havlicek
25.Elgin Baylor

[Lebron23]

I put them in tiers, no particular order in one tier.

11-14
11.Moses Malone
12.LeBron James
13.Jerry West
14.George Mikan

15-25
15.Julius Erving
16.Oscar Robertson
17.Karl Malone
18.Bob Pettit
19.Isiah Thomas
20.Bob Cousy
21.Charles Barkley
22.Dirk Nowitzki
23.Kevin Garnett
24.John Havlicek
25.Elgin Baylor


I agree with your posts. I think Wade is a top 30 players of all time. It sucks that he missed a lot of games in his NBA Career.

[WillC]

Without a shadow of a doubt, Oscar Robertson is one of the top 10 players in NBA history. It's insulting to suggest otherwise.

Meanwhile, Bob Pettit clearly belongs in the top 20.

Some real revisionist history going on in this thread.

[LEFT4DEAD]

Wade at his absolute peak was better than Dirk at his absolute peak but Dirk's peak lasted longer. Dirk has just simply put up more dominant seasons than Wade has so far in their careers.
That's true. But Wade's 2nd ring and much better play on the defensive end gives him the clear edge over Dirk in my opinion.

[Legends66NBA7]

Without a shadow of a doubt, Oscar Robertson is one of the top 10 players in NBA history. It's insulting to suggest otherwise.

Based of what criteria, exactly ?

Just curious.

[WillC]

Based of what criteria, exactly ?

Just curious.

Based on basketball talent.

He was the Michael Jordan of his era. His peers and experts at the time held him in high regard - the debate about the best player ever was between him, Wilt and Russell.

In the years since, fans look at his relative lack of team success and hold it against him. They conveniently forget that this is a team sport.

I recommend reading the 'Biographical History of Basketball' (Bjarkman). It is arguably the most in-depth book examining basketball history. The author - who knows the game better than most - makes a very convincing argument that Oscar Robertson is the best basketball player of all-time.

The guy absolutely dominated college (arguably the best college player ever, perhaps behind only Lew Alcindor), he is the best all-around player ever (LeBron is right up there too) with no weakensses, and played for arguably the most dominant team in NBA history (his Bucks championship team with Kareem is statistically the best team ever according to 'The NBA From Top To Bottom' book which ranks every NBA team).

At the very least, he is without a doubt in the top 10 ever.

It is an absolute insult to see him ranked 16th in some people's lists. At the turn of the century, Oscar Robertson was voted the 2nd best player of the century by the Associated Press.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. My opinion is that he is one of the top 7 players ever:

1 Michael Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Magic Johnson
6 Larry Bird
7 Oscar Robertson

[lilblingy]

Based on basketball talent.

He was the Michael Jordan of his era. His peers and experts at the time held him in high regard - the debate about the best player ever was between him, Wilt and Russell.


Umm how was he the Michael Jordan of his era again? last i checked Jordan won multiple rings as the lead dog, last i checked Jordan was the consensus best player in the NBA for the most part of his career. Oscar on the other hand got carried to his ring, and was always behind wilt in terms of statistical dominance.

Talent wise though, you are right, he should be top 10 of all time. but if stats was the primary criteria then Wilt would be GOAT and Russell would drop a few spots on peoples list...but like you said, everyone is entitled to their opinions

[WillC]

lilblingy, I meant that Oscar Robertson was revered like Jordan was in his era.

Experts at the time put him on a pedestal as the most talented basketball player ever.

[Legends66NBA7]

Based on basketball talent.

Well talent alone can be hard to guage and I can see a reason why he gets overrated, if that's one of the cases (considering era's have evolved).


He was the Michael Jordan of his era. His peers and experts at the time held him in high regard - the debate about the best player ever was between him, Wilt and Russell.

I've heard before Cousy getting this type of talk too... but I think that was before those 3 players entered the league.

Wilt and Russell were considered better than Oscar for pretty much their entire career, yes ? So I don't see how people thought there was a case for Oscar over them.

Quick Edit - Saw what you meant about Jordan.


In the years since, fans look at his relative lack of team success and hold it against him. They conveniently forget that this is a team sport.

That works both ways, though... Robertson could have won titles as he man too, but he also missed the playoffs even though he had good help on his team.


I recommend reading the 'Biographical History of Basketball' (Bjarkman). It is arguably the most in-depth book examining basketball history. The author - who knows the game better than most - makes a very convincing argument that Oscar Robertson is the best basketball player of all-time.

Thank you for the recommendation.

I don't think I'll be convinced about Oscar being the greatest basketball player, but perhaps I've taken my stance to Oscar's career incorrectly.


The guy absolutely dominated college (arguably the best college player ever, perhaps behind only Lew Alcindor), he is the best all-around player ever (LeBron is right up there too) with no weakensses, and played for arguably the most dominant team in NBA history (his Bucks championship team with Kareem is statistically the best team ever according to 'The NBA From Top To Bottom' book which ranks every NBA team).

All very good things, although that Bucks team... should have more credit going to Alcindor, just saying.


At the very least, he is without a doubt in the top 10 ever.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, of course. My opinion is that he is one of the top 7 players ever:

1 Michael Jordan
2 Bill Russell
3 Wilt Chamberlain
4 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5 Magic Johnson
6 Larry Bird
7 Oscar Robertson

I think that's debatable and I just don't see Oscar that high, but I won't disagree with your opinion.


It is an absolute insult to see him ranked 16th in some people's lists. At the turn of the century, Oscar Robertson was voted the 2nd best player of the century by the Associated Press.

Yeah, I don't think he's Top 20... he's more in the Top 15 range. Career wise, there are players that have cases over him.

As a player ? It really gets tricky, but I think you have to factor in regular season/playoff dominance/team success/accolades/achievements, etc... I feel there were players who dominated more and much longer as well... though, we can disagree there.

That actually is very interesting that he was voted the 2nd best.

Can I have link to that article ?

[RIP CITY]

He is easily top 20.

He's probably not even one of the 20 Greatest players I've ever seen play (don't quote me on that, I'm generalizing, I'd have to sit down and think about it, it could be alittle less than 20) and I didn't start watching basketball until the 80's, that leaves alot of guys from the era's before hand as well. If Dirk Nowitzki is considered Top 20, then he is easily the most overrated player in NBA history.

[WillC]

Legends66NBA7, I won't answer each of your points ad verbatim because, like you said, most of this is just opinion. However, I find this discussion very interesting, so I wanted to share some articles, quotes and opinions with you.

I hope you'll take the time to read them.

"Many began to refer to Oscar as the best basketball player the human race had yet produced. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour" ('24 Seconds to Shoot', by Leonard Koppett)

"Oscar Robertson may have been better than Michael Jordan, except Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 1960s were not the 1990s" ('Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?' by Elliot Kalb)

"Thirty years after his retirement, a strong case could be made for him to be called th best player in NBA history" ('Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?' by Elliot Kalb)

"Anything Jordan could do, Robertson could do better. He could shoot better, defend, pass better, and he was two inches shorter" (Leonard Koppett)

"Nobody could match the 'Big O' for pure artistic grace, for single-handed control of the playing floor he inhabited, or for all-around shooting, passing, and playmaking abilities. In brief, there was never a more complete package for a basketball player put together within a single human frame" ('The Biographical History of Basketball', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson...performed at a higher level (and for a longer period) in more vital areas than any other player of any other epoch" ('The Biographical History of Basketball', by Peter Bjarkman)

"For those that still respect versatility, there seems to be little debate. Oscar Robertson indeed remains the greatest basketball player ever invented" ('The Biographical History of Basketball', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson is without a doubt the all-time everything basketball player" (Dave Bing)

"Oscar was the best player I ever played against. The guy did not have a weakness" (John Havlicek)

"Oscar is without a doubt the greatest basketball player I have ever played against. To me he is the closest player I have ever seen to being perfect" (Jerry West)

[Legends66NBA7]

I hope you'll take the time to read them.

"Many began to refer to Oscar as the best basketball player the human race had yet produced. The argument: who would you rather have to start building a team, Wilt or Oscar, began to while away many an hour" ('24 Seconds to Shoot', by Leonard Koppett)

"Oscar Robertson may have been better than Michael Jordan, except Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 1960s were not the 1990s" ('Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?' by Elliot Kalb)

"Thirty years after his retirement, a strong case could be made for him to be called th best player in NBA history" ('Who's Better, Who's Best in Basketball?' by Elliot Kalb)

"Anything Jordan could do, Robertson could do better. He could shoot better, defend, pass better, and he was two inches shorter" (Leonard Koppett)

"Nobody could match the 'Big O' for pure artistic grace, for single-handed control of the playing floor he inhabited, or for all-around shooting, passing, and playmaking abilities. In brief, there was never a more complete package for a basketball player put together within a single human frame" ('The Biographical History of Basketball', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson...performed at a higher level (and for a longer period) in more vital areas than any other player of any other epoch" ('The Biographical History of Basketball', by Peter Bjarkman)

"For those that still respect versatility, there seems to be little debate. Oscar Robertson indeed remains the greatest basketball player ever invented" ('The Biographical History of Basketball', by Peter Bjarkman)

"Oscar Robertson is without a doubt the all-time everything basketball player" (Dave Bing)

"Oscar was the best player I ever played against. The guy did not have a weakness" (John Havlicek)

"Oscar is without a doubt the greatest basketball player I have ever played against. To me he is the closest player I have ever seen to being perfect" (Jerry West)

Interesting quotes, indeed.

I mostly respect the powerful stance and opinion of Kalb, Bjarkman, and Koppett (RIP). I think there's exaggeration, but I get the point. He was a player ahead of his time, much like Wilt.

I can't really side with Kalb on saying "Cincinnati was not Chicago and the 60's weren't the 90's". Chicago never got to the Finals before Jordan and were one of the worst teams in the league before Jordan got drafted to them. Oscar again, while great, missed the playoffs with more than enough help during his prime.

Jordan 3 peated with 2 completely different rosters and the only player that stayed the same was Scottie Pippen.

I think Kalb is also a Jordan hater of sorts, looking at his old list:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48704

I don't if that's like that anymore and while I don't have a problem with Wilt being over Jordan (you can make the case), what's Shaq doing at #1 ?

Anyways, getting back to topic, I really like West's quote the best, considering they were both drafted #1 and 2 in their draft. They were true rivals. I do think he's said Wilt was the greatest players as well, but I think I'm wrong there.

Will, thanks again for the quotes, appreciate it.

Perhaps, at this glance is what I need to look at Oscar differently, as I have to admit in the past, I have been one of those people who have docked him for lack of team success.

[WillC]

Thanks for reading my post and for the reply, Legends66NBA7.

I agree with you about Elliot Kalb. His rankings are nonsensical in places. However, his reasons for ranking Shaq so high are quite powerful; he argued that his dominance over the second best player in the league at the time (Duncan) was greater than any other player's level of dominance. Of course, the book was written shortly after Shaq's 3-peat and I'm sure he only ranked Shaq first to get a reaction from readers.

Regarding Robertson's lack of post-season success, to save myself time, I copied the following from a truly reliable source - bleacherreport (ha!). However, the writer has clearly done his homework, so it saves me some time.

[quote]Career on Cincinnati Royals (10 Seasons)

1960

[Legends66NBA7]

Jerry Lucas was a good player but not a true superstar. He was known for going out of his way to check his statistics rather than worrying about winning games.

Now this was the context I was looking forward too.

I knew about Oscar being an ass towards his teammates, but knowing Lucas was stat hunting... that's very interesting. Tells me a lot more about some of Oscar's internal problems, as well.


Finally, it's unfair to criticise Oscar for missing the Playoffs. After all, Kobe missed the Playoffs in 2004-05 and he's a player who, according to this thread, many people think was better than Oscar.

Well, to be fair, Kobe missed 1 time (it was a hectic season for Bryant's Lakers) as opposed to Oscar missing multiple times. Though, I understand what your getting at.


John Havlicek has 8 rings but he wasn't a better player than Elgin Baylor.

Elvin Hayes has 1 ring but he wasn't a better player than Karl Malone.

Robert Parish has 4 rings but he wasn't a better player than Patrick Ewing.

Well, at least you didn't make a Robert Horry/Derek Fisher/Steve Kerr/K.C. Jones comparison.

:oldlol:. Just kidding.

I agree with the examples. I actually thought Hayes vs Malone wasn't that vague at one point in time, but I knew better.


Rings only tell you so much. You have to study the player, look at his strengths and weaknesses and make a judgement on the player's ability.

Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history.

Fair points, maybe the last sentence is a bit vague for me, but I can understand. He's was a special talent and perhaps if he did getter better teammates earlier on in his career, were looking at the Big-O in a different spectrum.

I think I did know his playoff averages from before, so I can't say he didn't step up (it's just hard to maintain the numbers he did under tougher defense and better teams in a playoff series).

[Kews1]

did this quickly, let me know if there are any glaring omissions

11 Robertson
12 West
13 LeBron
14 Moses
15 Erving
16 Isiah
17 Havlicek
18 Garnett
19 Wade
20 Dirk
21 Baylor
22 Pippen
23 Robinson
24 Rodman
25 Barkley
26 Drexler
27 Pettit
28 Karl Malone
29 Cousy
30 Stockton

(before you ask about Mikan not being on this list at all and Cousy's low placement, I don't count the pre-shot clock NBA in GOAT lists)

Karl Malone is extremely low, under the likes of Rodman? Dirk? Wade?

[WillC]

"Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history"

Oscar was above average (or indeed outstanding) in nearly every basketball skill. That's what I meant. He was a truly outstanding shooter, he could create his own shot better than anyone in his era, he was an excellent passer, skilled ball handler, exceptional rebounder and arguably the best post-up guard of all-time. His defense was above average but not exceptional.

Kobe missed the playoffs once when he had a poor support cast. In the majority of his other seasons of his career he had either Shaq or Gasol alongside him. Oscar had a weak support cast for the majority of his career. Had he played alongside someone of Kareem's calibre for his entire career, then he'd never have missed the playoffs.

Maybe a better comparison is Magic Johnson. Let's swap Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Suddenly Oscar wins 4 or 5 championships in Los Angeles while Magic Johnson struggles to win a championship in Cincinatti. Who's career would be better than? No doubt it would be Oscar's. And yet, that doesn't tell us anything about how good the two players were, but it does tell us how good (or bad) their support casts were.

That's why we need to be more intelligent than to just look at team success. Sure, we need to factor it in, but, when evaluating individual players, looking at team success will only tell you so much.

Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal player on both ends of the court but played for some diabolical Magic teams.

Pete Maravich was one of the most talented offensive players in basketball history but how many of his Hawks and Jazz teammates can you name?

George Gervin was one of the finest scorers of all-time but how many of his Spurs teammates are household names?

All three of those players are underrated by ISH posters.

It's no coincidence; ISH posters (and fans in general) overrate team success when evaluating individual players.

[pauk]

11. LeBron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Kevin Garnett
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley

21. Bob Cousy
22. Bob Pettit
23. George Mikan
24. Isiah Thomas
25. John Havlicek
26. Rick Barry
27. Elgin Baylor
28. Scottie Pippen
29. Dwyane Wade
30. George Gervin
31. Elvin Hayes

[Legends66NBA7]

"Oscar arguably had more strengths and fewer weaknesses than any player in NBA history"

Oscar was above average (or indeed outstanding) in nearly every basketball skill. That's what I meant. He was a truly outstanding shooter, he could create his own shot better than anyone in his era, he was an excellent passer, skilled ball handler, exceptional rebounder and arguably the best post-up guard of all-time. His defense was above average but not exceptional.

Okay, I understand.


Maybe a better comparison is Magic Johnson. Let's swap Magic Johnson and Oscar Robertson. Suddenly Oscar wins 4 or 5 championships in Los Angeles while Magic Johnson struggles to win a championship in Cincinatti. Who's career would be better than? No doubt it would be Oscar's. And yet, that doesn't tell us anything about how good the two players were, but it does tell us how good (or bad) their support casts were.

I actually like this comparison a lot, because Magic came out publicly and refused to play for the Chicago Bulls, if they had the #1 pick. He even said he wanted to play for Kareem. That tells me that Magic probably didn't want to be on a bottom level team. While I'm sure he would have had won titles, would have made the playoffs every year and make 9 trips to the Finals ? Probably not.


That's why we need to be more intelligent than to just look at team success. Sure, we need to factor it in, but, when evaluating individual players, looking at team success will only tell you so much.

Yes, individual and team accomplishments both put into context provides us with the most logical answer.


Tracy McGrady was a phenomenal player on both ends of the court but played for some diabolical Magic teams.

Pete Maravich was one of the most talented offensive players in basketball history but how many of his Hawks and Jazz teammates can you name?

George Gervin was one of the finest scorers of all-time but how many of his Spurs teammates are household names?

Well, I can see why all 3 can be overrated, just as much they can be underrated.

T-Mac, while a great peak, also didn't have the best practice habits and was consider a lazy player and a bad attitude earlier on in his career. I actually thought his best defensive days were in Toronto, because I don't think he was ever the same defensive player when he started to be the first option on the Magic.

Maravich, volume scorer and a great passer and your right, I probably can't name many on those Jazz/Hawks teams (I just thought of old Gail Goodrich :oldlol:). His negatives were that he was considered a poor defender. Charley Rosen might be crazy sometimes with his ramblings, but he has mentioned how Pistol Pete might have been "the worst defender in NBA History".

I agree with Gervin's teams as well. However, he was also criticized off not doing much else besides scoring, and like Maravich, considered a poor defender. Another one Rosen's overrated list.

Off course, these 3 might have benefited from better teammates more earlier on... though I think T-Mac had more than enough help in Houston. He should have stayed in Toronto and I don't just say that because Toronto is my home town team. He and Vince Carter would have benefited playing with each other.

But also, they weren't without their flaws either, but I get what you mean of the overrating of team achievements.

[Kews1]

11. LeBron James
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Dirk Nowitzki
18. Kevin Garnett
19. David Robinson
20. Charles Barkley

KG>Dirk & Karl Malone

[WillC]

Legends66NBA7, I'm not saying that Maravich, McGrady and Gervin were the best players ever (or even in the conversation), I'm just pondering how their careers might be remembered differently if they had been surrounded by Hall-of-Fame talent during their peaks.

That's a luxury that Magic, Kobe, Bird, Russell and others had.

It's not a luxury that Oscar had.

[pauk]

KG>Dirk & Karl Malone

Why not, its a very close call

[Legends66NBA7]

Legends66NBA7, I'm not saying that Maravich, McGrady and Gervin were the best players ever (or even in the conversation), I'm just pondering how their careers might be remembered differently if they had been surrounded by Hall-of-Fame talent during their peaks.

That's a luxury that Magic, Kobe, Bird, Russell and others had.

It's not a luxury that Oscar had.

Oh, my mistake then. I would say they probably would be remembered differently.

I would also say Charles Barkley would be in that conversation too. How different is his legacy if he's with all-time great teams and multiple titles ? He's most likely a lock for Top 10.

[Kews1]

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

[WillC]

Oh, my mistake then. I would say they probably would remembered differently.

I would also say Charles Barkley would be in that conversation too. How different is his legacy if he's with all-time great teams and multiple titles ? He's most likely a lock for Top 10.

Exactly.

And that's why we need to keep it in mind that some of the legends of the game were fortuitous to land on such talented teams. And thus we need to evaluate players based on their individual talent - not on their team's collective talent.

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships in any era even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.

[fpliii]

Karl Malone is extremely low, under the likes of Rodman? Dirk? Wade?

I'll address all three of those tomorrow (still up, haven't slept yet), but Dirk & Wade are pretty clear cut

as for Rodman, I now place him higher, but this is my list as it stood last summer (July, I believe)...here's a good read:

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

[pauk]

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

That means you have Lebron in top 10? Nice! :cheers:

[Legends66NBA7]

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships in any era even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.

While it's your opinion, why Wilt?

He needed two of the greatest teams of all-time to win titles, who won 68 and 69 games a piece in the regular season.

For the Sixers, Wilt goes 2-17 from the free throw line, in a Finals game no less, and it doesn't matter because the Sixers are blowing out the opposition.

[arifgokcen]

off the top of my head.

11. Kobe Bryant
12. Moses Malone
13. Oscar Robertson
14. Kevin Garnett
15. Jerry West
16. Karl Malone
17. Scottie Pippen
18. Charles Barkley
19. Isiah Thomas
20. David Robinson

Who did you replace kobe with in top 10
Lebron???

[Legends66NBA7]

I'll address all three of those tomorrow (still up, haven't slept yet), but Dirk & Wade are pretty clear cut

as for Rodman, I now place him higher, but this is my list as it stood last summer (July, I believe)...here's a good read:

http://skepticalsports.com/?page_id=1222

I think I've come across this before. I've heard this old Russell and Wilt story about the Total Rebound Rate% (at least I believe it's about that one). Upon hearing about the formula, Russell told Wilt about the formula saying how Rodman was a better rebounder and how he would grab more rebounds in their era. Which Wilt responded:

"But I grabed more rebounds than him !"

:oldlol:

I got find the link on YouTube again in which Russell tells that story.

[Kews1]

Who did you replace kobe with in top 10
Lebron???

obviously, lets not kid ourselfs Lebron > Kobe. even if its only by 1 place right now.

[Freedom Kid7]

Erm, damn this is tough.
11. Oscar Robertson (second most impressive statistic man behind Wilt)
12. Jerry West
13. Mr. Moses Malone
14. Julius Erving
15. LelBron
16. KG
17. Isiah Thomas/John Havlichek
18. John Havlichek/Isiah Thomas
19. Dirk
20. Stockton

Damn that was tough

[ralph_i_el]

The consensus Top 10 in ISH in no order is usually:

Michael Jordan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Magic Johnson
Larry Bird
Shaquille Oneal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
Hakeem Olajuwon

So, let us discuss our Top 11-20 lists. Here are some of the criteria we should consider.

-Peak Play
-Longetivity
-Over all Impact (Including making team mates better)
-Dominance (Including NBA Accolades)
-Playoffs Success (Not necessarily a Ring)

Here is my List:

11. Oscar Robertson: Still the only player in history to average a triple-double in a season, he averaged 26.5 PPG, 9.5 APG and 7.5 RPG. He won 1 MVP and was a 12x All-Star.

12. Jerry West: He won 1 Championship but made the NBA Finals ten times. He made 13 All-Stars games and averaged 27 PPG, 6.7 APG.

13. Lebron James: He won 1x NBA Championship, 3x MVP and an 8x All-Star.

14. Moses Malone: In 20 years he won 3 MVPs, 11 All-Stars and a NBA championship. He averaged 20.6 PPG and 12.2 RPG.

15. Bob Cousy: He was a 6x NBA Champion, 13-time All-Star and 1x MVP.

16. John Havlicek: He was a 8x NBA Champion, 13x All-Star and made 26k+ career points.

17. Isiah Thomas: He was a 2x NBA Champion, 12x All-Star and averaged 19.2 PPG and 9.3 assists for his career.

18. Julius Erving: He won 1 NBA Championship, 1 MVP and was an 11x All-Star while averaging 22 PPG during his career.

19. David Robinson: He won 2x NBA Championships, 1xMVP, 10x All-stars and 1x DPOY.

20. Kevin Garnett: 1x NBA Champion, 1x MVP, 14x All-Star, 1x DPOY and he led the NBA in rebounds for 4 seasons. He also made it to 12 All NBA defensive Teams.


Noticeable lack of Chuck. NBA championships are very important to you I think?

[Gifted Mind]

Based on the consensus Top 10 you have selected, let's start with the players who belong their for sure (no order):

Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
Jerry West
LeBron James
Julius Erving

These are the only 5 players you could make a case for Top 10.

[TMacMagic]

obviously, lets not kid ourselfs Lebron > Kobe. even if its only by 1 place right now.

LeBron shouldn't even be in top 20 in my opinion.

[Legends66NBA7]

Based on the consensus Top 10 you have selected, let's start with the players who belong their for sure (no order):

Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
Jerry West
LeBron James
Julius Erving

These are the only 5 players you could make a case for Top 10.

I agree, but maybe less so for Erving, since were not counting ABA achievements.

[Gifted Mind]

I agree, but maybe less so for Erving, since were not counting ABA achievements.
Are we not? Well in the case we are not, yes he doesn't belong in that group. But if we are, he definitely does.

[Legends66NBA7]

Are we not? Well in the case we are not, yes he doesn't belong in that group. But if we are, he definitely does.

Well, the title stated "NBA Players of all-time", so I'm assuming were going by just NBA criteria.

Agree on both counts.

[Alan Shore]

5 pages and walt frazier doesn't even break the top 30? that's a glaring omission.

here are the top 9 in no particular order, all of whom i have seen play with the exception of russell and robertson:

jordan
magic
bird
russell
robertson
lebron
duncan
olajuwon
shaq

they made every one around them better, even shaq-- who learned how to pass out of double teams by the time he played for the lakers thanks to pete newell's big man camp. all were positive-sum players with extraordinary BBIQ.

the next 11 are trickier but in no particular order, though i never saw pettitt play.

abdul-jabbar
chamberlain
bob pettitt
havlicek
bryant
barkley
stockton
rick barry
scotty pippen
dirk nowitzki
julius erving

the next 10 players becomes an increasingly-biased free-for-all.

[jrong]

They were 5th on d that season, they werne't much of a defense team when saunders took over for brown

He dominated the Larry Brown Pistons in 05 too until the ab tear in Game 5.

I've done exhaustive individual comparisons of Wade v. Thomas, Pippen, Drexler on here. I did one vs. Thomas about a month ago. You can look up the threads. Wade dominates them-- stats, advanced stats, accolades-- especially against Drexler. I'm not going to retype them. I save most of my words for publication now.

I haven't done any of Wade vs. Barkley or Malone, but there's no way either of them were better than Wade at his peak. Neither had the all-around game.

But, I'm comfortable with Wade outside the top 20 for now. It's too early yet. But, some of these lists have some of these other guys way too high.

[jlauber]

While it's your opinion, why Wilt?

He needed two of the greatest teams of all-time to win titles, who won 68 and 69 games a piece in the regular season.

For the Sixers, Wilt goes 2-17 from the free throw line, in a Finals game no less, and it doesn't matter because the Sixers are blowing out the opposition.

Chamberlain MADE those two team's the greatest of all-time. The Sixers were a 34-46 team the year before Wilt arrived. They would have the best record in the league for the next three years with Wilt, including that dominating title. And his old team, the Warriors, who had gone 48-32 and reached the Finals before they traded him at mid-season the next year, drafted Rick Barry and replaced Wilt with HOF center Nate Thurmond...and they would not beat that 48-32 record as Warrior teammates the years they played together after that (which included a LOADED Warrior team going 44-37 in the '67 seasons.)

And the Warriors and Wilt would battle three times in the playoffs after that trade, and Wilt's teams bombed them in each.

And after Wilt left Philly, they not only dropped from 62-20 (and 68-13 in '67) down to 55-27, they were blown out in the first round of the playoffs, and then declined rapidly after that. By Wilt's last season, in 72-73, the Sixers were the laughingstock of the league, going 9-73.

Meanwhile, Chamberlain IMMEDIATELY led the 68-69 Lakers to a then best-ever LA record. And he did so by basically replacing THREE players (All-Star guard Archie Clark, journeyman center Darrall Imhoff, and then Gail Goodrich, who was lost to expansion, and not replaced.) So, Wilt basically replaced 42 ppg and 18 rpg. And, as was often the case, Jerry West also missed 20 games that season.

In Wilt's five seasons in LA, they went to FOUR Finals, and won that dominating title in 71-72 (69-13...and then went 60-22 in his LAST season.)

After Wilt retired, the Lakers immediately plummetted to a 47-35 record, and were murdered in the first round of the playoffs. The next year they fell to 30-52. They traded for Kareem, and all he could do was get them to a 40-42 record. It wasn't until Magic arrived in '80 that the Lakers picked up where Chamberlain left them.

As for that "2-17" comment. as ALWAYS, it was Wilt's IMPACT at the line that made a difference. Do you realize that Wilt had every Warrior in foul trouble in that game? And that his Sixers attempted 64 FTAs to SF's 29? And that they blew away the Warriors from the line in that series? And that EVERY Chamberlain team either LED the league in FTAs, or were near the top in that category?

You want a great example of Wilt's IMPACT at the line? In Wilt's 68-69 season with LA, the Lakers LED the NBA in FTAs. And they would easily lead in that post-season too. Early in the next season, in game nine, Chamberlain shredded his knee, and missed almost the entire season. The Lakers dropped from first to 12th (in a 14 team league) in FTAs. THEN, Chamberlain returned for the playoffs, and guess what? The Lakers shot 200 more FTAs than the next best team in that post-season, and shot 96 more FTAs just against the Knicks in the Finals.

Those that knock Wilt's FT shooting (and no one is arguing that it was bad) need to realize that his IMPACT more than made up for it. BTW, Shaq had some horrible Finals (he even won a ring when he shot 36-93 in a series); and Russell not only had some poor FT shooting post-seasons, he also had some downright ugly FG% post-seasons, as well. Yet Shaq and Russell combined for 15 rings.

[NumberSix]

1. Dylan
2. Dylan
3. Dylan
4. Dylan
5. Dylan
6. Dylan
7. Dylan
8. Dylan
9. Dylan
10. Dylan
11. Dylan
12. Dylan
13. Dylan
14. Dylan
15. Dylan
16. Dylan
17. Dylan
18. Dylan
19. Dylan
20. Dylan

http://www.7days7nights.com/carib/images/photos/thumbs/8043$anim_bcf4bf4a-26bb-ea74-5135-664c0a457b34.gif

[jalbert009]

Based on the consensus Top 10 you have selected, let's start with the players who belong their for sure (no order):

Oscar Robertson
Moses Malone
Jerry West
LeBron James
Julius Erving

These are the only 5 players you could make a case for Top 11-20.

Fixed

I agree though except for Erving. But the first 4 you mentioned seem to be a lock for everyone's Top 11-20. The next 6 seem to depend on peoples personal preferences. I have noticed a few posters here do not value some of the older generation of players from 70's or earlier and seem to overate the more contemporary players.

[jlauber]

Exactly.

And that's why we need to keep it in mind that some of the legends of the game were fortuitous to land on such talented teams. And thus we need to evaluate players based on their individual talent - not on their team's collective talent.

On a side note, Jordan (and perhaps Shaq and Wilt) is the only player ever who, in my opinion, would have won championships in any era even with a mediocre support cast. Perhaps Magic too. I'm not sure that can be said for any other players.

Basketball is a TEAM sport. I believe another poster made a good point a couple of years ago...

That, unless you could take, say all of the Top-20 all-time greats, and somehow put them onto absolutely equal (and healthy rosters), with the same coaching, and perhaps even the same system...there is simply no way of comparing TEAM success in these all-time discussions. I have long maintained that KG would have won considerably more rings in his career, had he not been saddled with poor rosters in the prime of his career.

And Oscar's TEAM success is under-rated, as well. He not only carried a 55-25 Royals team in the mid-60's, but he played on FOUR Milwaukee teams that went 66-16 (and won a title), 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and lost a game seven in the Finals.) And while there were other factors, as well, the Bucks immediately plummetted to a 38-44 record after Oscar retired.

He certainly has an indivdual resume to be considered a Top-10 player, though. Personally, I have him in the 12th to 15th range.

[Kews1]

LeBron shouldn't even be in top 20 in my opinion.

And why is that?

[jlauber]

Speaking of bad-ass athletes...how about a prime Hulk Hogan? I have always found it fascinating what eating vitamins and saying his prayers at night did for that guy.

And, if he had the momentum and the fan support...well, no one could take on the Hulkster.

[Kews1]

Speaking of bad-ass athletes...how about a prime Hulk Hogan? I have always found it fascinating what eating vitamins and saying his prayers at night did for that guy.

And, if he had the momentum and the fan support...well, no one could take on the Hulkster.

Well that was random

[Gifted Mind]

Fixed

I agree though except for Erving. But the first 4 you mentioned seem to be a lock for everyone's Top 11-20. The next 6 seem to depend on peoples personal preferences. I have noticed a few posters here do not value some of the older generation of players from 70's or earlier and seem to overate the more contemporary players.

Normally when rankings are done, ABA is included. And if you include ABA, Erving is in that group. I don't value his ABA achievements equivalent to NBA achievements, but give them the credit they deserve.

[TMacMagic]

And why is that?

2 many other good players, lb still has a lot to learn.

[Legends66NBA7]

As for that "2-17" comment. as ALWAYS, it was Wilt's IMPACT at the line that made a difference. Do you realize that Wilt had every Warrior in foul trouble in that game? And that his Sixers attempted 64 FTAs to SF's 29? And that they blew away the Warriors from the line in that series? And that EVERY Chamberlain team either LED the league in FTAs, or were near the top in that category?

J, my stance on the 2-17 comment is meant to show that he finally had more than enough help to overcome any crucial problems he had on the free throw line. It wouldn't matter if Wilt was going 2-17 or 2-12 in Finals games, he had the help to complement the rest of his skills and show full impact on the game.

Never said Wilt didn't help those teams become great, especially the Sixers.

[jlauber]

J, my stance on the 2-17 comment is meant to show that he finally had more than enough help to overcome any crucial problems he had on the free throw line. It wouldn't matter if Wilt was going 2-17 or 2-12 in Finals games, he had the help to complement the rest of his skills and show full impact on the game.

Never said Wilt didn't help those teams become great, especially the Sixers.

Well, to be honest, my response was directed more at other posters on this board. To merely look at Wilt's poor FT shooting, without putting it into it's full context is misleading. Chamberlain's teammates benefitted from the pounding that Chamberlain leveled against his opponents in terms of fouls. He was getting them into the bonus much earlier, and more often, as well as reducing defensive effectiveness because of foul trouble. Furthermore, Wilt himself, was benefitting from the most "and-one's" in NBA history, as well as the mant "3-to-make-2" situations he had (and while the misses still counted, a 2-3 from the line was the equivalent to 2-2.)

And, as I pointed out, somehow Russell's teams were able to overcome his less than stellar FT%'s (as well as some poor FG% series), and Shaq won title with awful FT shooting, as well.

Instead of those ripping Chamberlain for his poor FT shooting, they should look at the entire picture. Sure, Wilt might have won a couple of more titles had he made some more FTs, but the fact remains, without Chamberlain, those teams probably would have been first round cannon-fodde, or worse, without Wilt (which, was, in fact the case.)

[Kews1]

2 many other good players, lb still has a lot to learn.

theres no way you can name 20 players better than Lebron James without being extremely biased.

[Lebron23]

theres no way you can name 20 players better than Lebron James without being extremely biased.


The guy is a useless troll. Just put him on your ignore lists. LeBron is better than his favorite player homobe.

[WillC]

Basketball is a TEAM sport. I believe another poster made a good point a couple of years ago...

That, unless you could take, say all of the Top-20 all-time greats, and somehow put them onto absolutely equal (and healthy rosters), with the same coaching, and perhaps even the same system...there is simply no way of comparing TEAM success in these all-time discussions. I have long maintained that KG would have won considerably more rings in his career, had he not been saddled with poor rosters in the prime of his career.

And Oscar's TEAM success is under-rated, as well. He not only carried a 55-25 Royals team in the mid-60's, but he played on FOUR Milwaukee teams that went 66-16 (and won a title), 63-19, 60-22, and 59-23 (and lost a game seven in the Finals.) And while there were other factors, as well, the Bucks immediately plummetted to a 38-44 record after Oscar retired.

He certainly has an indivdual resume to be considered a Top-10 player, though. Personally, I have him in the 12th to 15th range.

Which 11 to 14 players have you got ranked ahead of Oscar Robertson? I'm curious.

As someone who knows so much about 1960s basketball, I thought you'd appreciate Oscar's game more than most.

[jlauber]

Which 11 to 14 players have you got ranked ahead of Oscar Robertson? I'm curious.

As someone who knows so much about 1960s basketball, I thought you'd appreciate Oscar's game more than most.

I try to base my rankings with a somewhat consistent criteria. That criteria includes MVPs, FMVPs, rings, overall career W-L, and of course, individual brilliance. Of course, Oscar is lacking in some of those categories, although to be fair, he had to go against the Russell Dynasty, and the greatest individual player in the history of the game, too.

As we both know, a player only has so much control of the TEAM aspect. You brought up a good point with the Magic-Oscar comparison. And the same could be said for Chamberlain, too. John Wooden claimed that had Wilt and Russell swapped rosters, that likely Chamberlain would have won all of those rings. Which, incidently, is why I have Wilt near the top in my rankings. He came within an eyelash of beating Russell's Celtics on four occasions, as well as being competitive with inferior rosters in '60 and '64...or a total of six seasons in which he could have won rings against Russell's better teams.

In terms of individual brilliance, and over an extended period, Oscar may be a top-5 player. However, the bottom line, though, at least for me, is that he only won that one MVP; he only won one ring (and he had FOUR seasons with Kareem BTW); and he had zero FMVPs (and yes, I think we both know that there were FMVPs in the 60's...even if the award didn't exist until '69.

His apg margins were staggering, so a case could be made that he was the greatest passer in NBA history. He was a great scorer, who, unfortunately for him, played in the Chamberlain-era. Hard to believe a player could average 30 ppg in a season, and finish 20 ppg behind the leader. Against the league average, he was arguably the most efficient shooting guard in NBA history. His '63 season of .518, against a league average of .441, translates to .570 in MJ's '87 season. So, in fact, he probably was even slightly more efficient that Magic, when Johnson was putting up those insane .561 and .565 seasons. And, his rebounding was exceptional, albeit, in the one area which was considerably more inflated than any other statistical category in the 60's (and here again, that was really only in the early 60's.) Finally, his defense was solid and probably under-rated.

But, using my criteria (for whatever that 's worth), I just can't rank him over players like Russell, Wilt, MJ, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird, Hakeem, or Moses. And even at this stage, Lebron probably has a case over Oscar, as well.

You are welcome to disagree, but I probably have Oscar at #13.

[WillC]

Thanks for the reply. You make some fair points.

You can certainly make a case for each of those players ahead of Oscar Robertson. Personally, I'd have a hard time buying any argument that Moses Malone was a better player than Oscar Robertson.

Here are some all-time rankings:

Associated Press Player of the Century: Oscar 2nd, Moses unranked (didn't get a vote in the top 14)
Book of Basketball (Bill Simmons): Oscar 10th, Moses 13th
Slam 500: Oscar 5th, Moses 15th
Slam top 75 (2003): Oscar 3rd, Moses 16th
Who's Better, Who's Best? (Elliot Kalb): Oscar 8th, Moses 14th
SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary (Peter Vecsey): Oscar 11th, Moses 16th
Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (Wayne Patterson): Oscar 5th, Moses 17th
Athlon Sports' Pro Basketball Special: Oscar 4th, Moses unranked (didn't feature in top 10)

[jlauber]

Thanks for the reply. You make some fair points.

You can certainly make a case for each of those players ahead of Oscar Robertson. Personally, I'd have a hard time buying any argument that Moses Malone was a better player than Oscar Robertson.

Here are some all-time rankings:

Associated Press Player of the Century: Oscar 2nd, Moses unranked (didn't get a vote in the top 14)
Book of Basketball (Bill Simmons): Oscar 10th, Moses 13th
Slam 500: Oscar 5th, Moses 15th
Slam top 75 (2003): Oscar 3rd, Moses 16th
Who's Better, Who's Best? (Elliot Kalb): Oscar 8th, Moses 14th
SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary (Peter Vecsey): Oscar 11th, Moses 16th
Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (Wayne Patterson): Oscar 5th, Moses 17th
Athlon Sports' Pro Basketball Special: Oscar 4th, Moses unranked (didn't feature in top 10)

IMHO, Moses in one of the most under-rated players in NBA history. I forgot to mention another "criteria" that I often use...and that is...player dominance over their peers. IMHO, there have only been three centers who have absolutely dominated ALL of their peers and in a span of several seasons. Shaq, Chamberlain, and then Moses.

I have posted the H2H's, but Moses just PLASTERED Kareem in their majority of their 40 H2H's. He also dominated Lanier and Gilmore in their's. The man won a PLETHORA of rebounding titles, including one by nearly FIVE per game. He put up a 31-15 season. He just trashed everyone in the '83 season. Even ShaqAttack has marveled at his 81-82 season.

THREE MVPs, (and IMHO, he should have won it in '80...he easily outplayed the MVP in his H2H's with Kareem.) A dominant FMVP. And, that overwhelming dominance over his peers for about 5-6 straight years.

[WillC]

He was disinclined to pass, play defense or let any teammate take more shots than he did.

[jlauber]

He was disinclined to pass, play defense or let any teammate take more shots than he did.

Well, as great an offensive player as Kareem was, he barely shot over 50% in the known H2H's of his 40 career H2H's against Moses. Granted, they were not always matched up against each other, but Kareem certainly struggle more against his team's than virtually every other team he was facing in that time frame.

As for shots...Moses piled up a ton of shots on offensive putbacks.

IMHO, Moses and Russell were the two most relentless centers of all-time. Russell on defense, and Moses on the offensive end. And both were around 6-10.

[WillC]

True, Moses was certainly relentless. So was Charles Barkley though - another poor defender but monster rebounder.

Out of interest, what in your opinion makes Moses a better player than Barkley? Very similar strengths (and weaknesses - both were turnover machines who played little defense), although Barkley shot a higher percentage and was a far superior ball handler and passer.

I still can't relate to the idea that Moses was a superior basketball player to Oscar Robertson.

[jlauber]

True, Moses was certainly relentless. So was Charles Barkley though - another poor defender but monster rebounder.

Out of interest, what in your opinion makes Moses a better player than Barkley? Very similar strengths (and weaknesses - both were turnover machines who played little defense), although Barkley shot a higher percentage and was a far superior ball handler and passer.

I still can't relate to the idea that Moses was a superior basketball player to Oscar Robertson.

As great as Barkley was, he was not terrorizing the entire league as much as a prime Moses did to his peers. Moses was just shelling his opposing centers at his peak...several of which are in the HOF.

And here again, THREE MVPs to one, and a FMVP. And realistically, Moses was probably theBEST player in the league for 5-6 years.

And, yes, it is difficult to compare Oscar and Moses. two different positions, and two different styles of play. I just look at their overall resumes, and while there is a good argument for either, given the fact that Oscar was probably no more than the third best player of his era, while Moses dominated his for several seasons...I just give a slight edge to Moses.

Here again, though, I don't have a problem swapping either.

[WillC]

I think your argument says more about the relative amount of competition that each player faced rather than anything about the overall abilities of each player.

I have a hard time deciding who was better: Barkley or Moses Malone. But Malone was, as you said, perhaps the best player in the league for a few years, whereas Barkley can't say the same thing. Then again, Barkley played during Magic and then Jordan's peak years.

Malone's peak coincided with the early years of Magic and Bird and the latter years of Kareem's career.

In fact, some books I've read (particularly 'Who's Better, Who's Best?') argue that Moses Malone's career was fortunate in terms of its timing.

Was Malone better than David Robinson? Robinson had to face Olajuwon, Ewing and Shaq during their peak years. I'd argue Malone was indeed better than Robinson, but not significantly so.

Going back to Oscar Robertson, he was by far the best non-center in the world for a period of 10 years or more.

I agree with you though, it's difficult to compare guards to centers.

[noosaman]

I have Dirk at #11

[Round Mound]

Charles Barkley is too low IMO

A Top 10 All Time in EFF
Top 9-10 All Time in PER (Season and Play-Offs)
Top 5 All Time in +/-
Top 4 All Time In Shot Made/Missed Diferential
Top 8 All Time in Winshares Per 48 Minutes

Had Barkley got a Ring he would have been in the Top 10 With Ease.

Kobe Bryant is Too High on the Lists...He Wasn`t as Dominant as for example Moses, D-Rob, Hakeem, Duncan, Garnett (the game is not just scoring) and ofcourse Sir Charles

Dirk is Righ there With Bryant as a Top 15-20 Player

[DirkNowitzki41]

I have Dirk at #11
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[noosaman]

:oldlol: :oldlol:

Too low?

[jalbert009]

I have Dirk at #11
So you saying Dirk>Moses Malone, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson and Lebron James? :lol I'd like to see your argument there...




Dirk is Right there With Bryant as a Top 15-20 Player

Dirk aint in the top 15-20. Barkley however is debatable.

[DirkNowitzki41]

Dirk aint in the top 15-20. Barkley however is debatable.

always the KG fans... :oldlol:

[Kews1]

always the KG fans... :oldlol:

KG>>>>>>Dirk, its not even debatable there has been like 3 KG vs Dirk forums in the past 2 months or so and both were a overwhelmingly in support of KG. Dirk pales in comparison to the greatness that is "The Big Ticket"

[RRR3]

KG>>>>>>Dirk, its not even debatable there has been like 3 KG vs Dirk forums in the past 2 months or so and both were a overwhelmingly in support of KG. Dirk pales in comparison to the greatness that is "The Big Ticket"
:applause:

[Odinn]

Here is my complete top 20 list.

1. Michael Jordan
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Bill Russell
4. Larry Bird
5. Wilt Chamberlain
6. Shaquille O'Neal
6. Magic Johnson
8. Tim Duncan
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Moses Malone
12. Oscar Robertson
13. LeBron James
14. Julius Erving
15. Charles Barkley
16. Jerry West
16. Elgin Baylor
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19. Karl Malone
20. John Havlicek or George Mikan or David Robinson or Kevin Garnett

[RIP CITY]

Everyone's criteria on how to make these lists varies. Most agree with the Top 10 because those players are pretty obviously the best players ever. Sure there are some debates about the order and Oscar is the debate I always see because he tends to get left out of the Top 10 quite a bit. But for the most part, these lists don't really get that subjective until we get to this point, the topic point, from #11 and beyond.

I think most people's list put too much importance on team success (I think in the Top 10 team success becomes more important because you're comparing the best of the best and it becomes one of the only ways to separate them) and subjective Awards. The Awards system in the NBA is majorly flawed and in most cases is a popularity contest. People love to use the phrase "I'll trust the Coaches voting over your random internet opinion" but that fails to realize that most Coaches don't take that voting seriously at all and most probably have someone else fill it out for them because they are busy... Coaching. The media is just as biased as any fan, if not more so because they actually get to meet the players and see their personalities more, thus judging them based not only as players but people as well. They develop favorites and they develop dislikes, just like fans. Then on top of that, the media is not nearly as educated on the game of basketball as people make them out to be, most of them are casual fans in terms of actual basketball knowledge, they just vote for what they like visually on the court or they go with the flow and vote based on reputation... a reputation that in most cases in their world, they created based on what players get them the best ratings/sell the most papers or again, personal bias.

My point is, not every great player can win, someone has to lose. Not every great player is put into good positions to win with their franchise. Some of the best players ever went their entire career having never played on a team that was truly capable of winning a Championship. The Awards voting system has given certain players a reputation of being greater than they actually are, while it has snubbed players of Awards they deserved which hurts their reputation and makes people think less of them as players, because you can't point to those Awards to clarify the truth.

The way I try to do my list, besides obviously trying to put my personal bias aside as much as possible, is to really only use team success and/or Awards in cases where two players are extremely close talent wise (team success is also something you have to take into context, some players just played on better teams as I said before). I first try to order players by who the better player was on the court, the best player in my view. I value peaks and primes over longevity, not to say that longevity doesn't play a factor, because I feel players have to have played at a high level for a certain amount of time to be considered for the list (8 years is kind of my unofficial cut off point, less than that takes something exceptional) and if a player has significantly less years playing a high level then he shouldn't be ranked over a player who's lasted alot longer. It varies based on the talent gap vs. number of years of longevity difference. I also feel like I value defensive play more than most people do, or at the very least I tend not to ignore it as much as most people do. That's also not to say that there aren't players on my list that weren't as good defensively as a player lower on my list, I try to go by the most impactful player overall and sometimes that means a player with less defensive impact is ranked higher (less defense relatively speaking, you won't find many poor defenders on my list, though there will be a couple).

The ability to maintain or surpass regular season play in the postseason is also a big factor for me. Players crumble in tense situations and aren't as mentally strong as others to handle the pressure of Playoff basketball. Playoff performance is something that should be valued very highly on these lists.

Then you get into the "Era played" debate, which is a mine field of subjective opinions and subjective thoughts on which era is more suited for which player, what a player would do in a different era, etc. That is where every list gets tricky. Very difficult to predict, many differing views on era competitiveness. I try to base it on skill and talent, which admittedly hurts players from previous generations who didn't have the luxury of learning from as many previous players as players from newer generations do. Particularly perimeter players, because I feel like big men are much more easily transitioned from era to era.

So with all that said (and most of it probably not read by most of you because it was a pretty long post), this is my list of 11-20.

11. Oscar Robertson - I agree with the sentiment that for what he did in his era he should probably be ranked higher. His statistics are mind boggling for today's game. Some would say, how can you rank him lower when based on your own criteria you said you would chose the best player over pretty much everything else, and his statistics point that he is better than ______ who you have ranked ahead of him. Again, talent and skill level, impact on the game are high points for me. From a talent and skill perspective he is behind the 8 ball in terms of perimeter players because they had a chance to learn from the player that learned from the player that learned from watching him play. It may be unfair to him in some ways but it just is what it is. Still, the fact that he's still so close to the Top 10 shows the lasting power he had despite the lack of predecessorary knowledge.

12. LeBron James - Really the only reason he's not higher is because his career isn't over yet. I hate him as a fan, don't find his game particularly exciting to watch but you can't deny the talent and skill he plays with even if it isn't as pretty as other players. Though his defense is quite overrated you could argue he's the greatest offensive player ever (you can make a case he is, I don't think he is). One of the best all-around basketball players ever. He will eventually go down as a Top 10 player minimum and probably end up in the Top 5. Unfortunately.

13. Moses Malone - Dominant big man, extremely productive who fared well against any big man competition he faced.

14. Julius Erving - Ahead of his time in talent, skill and creativity. Stands the test of time despite players that who patterned their game after him and advanced the perimeter game from where it was when he played.

15. Jerry West - One of the greatest scorers of All-Time, one of the clutchest players of All-Time. His scoring skills were ahead of their time despite being very fundamentally based. Also a very good rebounder for his position and very good playmaker.

16. David Robinson - One of the most skilled and talented Centers/big men to ever play the game. He had it all and then some. Great post scorer, good mid-range jump shot, solid passer for his position, set screens, great post and weakside/team defender, great shot blocker, great rebounder, great leader, great athleticism. One of the greatest defensive players ever. Truly the total package, at his peak he was arguably as dominant as any big men in NBA history including some of the bigs in the Top 10.

17. Kevin Garnett - Will always have detractors because of his lack of Playoffs success in Minnesota and his overblown (not that there wasn't some truth to it) lack of being the go-to guy in crunch time. But this guy, like Robinson was the total package, maybe the single most versatile player of All-Time and certainly the most versatile big man of All-Time (IMO). Could score in the post, mid-range (and slightly extended), fastbreak and was a great finisher. One of the most athletic bigs of All-Time. Defensively he was a great post defender, help/team/weakside defender, very good perimeter defender for a big man and possibly the greatest pick-n-roll/pop defender of ever. One of the greatest defensive players ever. Really I have a hard time with ranking him, I always want to find a way to rank him higher just hard with the players above him. Amazing talent/skill level.

18. Isiah Thomas - I'm sure alot of people will want to call this a homer pick but to me there weren't many PG's as skilled or talented as Isiah Thomas. I've always considered him the 3rd best PG behind the Magic and Oscar, he was a great scorer capable of taking over games, one of the best passers of All-Time and a very underrated defensive player (admittedly that took much improvement from his earlier years where he was pretty average at best). He had an enormous impact on the floor.

19. Charles Barkley - I agree with Charles that he was better than Karl Malone. Not by a ton, by a very slim margin but just enough for me to rank him ahead of him (Malone is #21). Completely agree with Barkley not being as reliant on teammates to get him going offensively. Amazing rebounder, especially considering he was probably 6'6'' bare feet and maybe 6'7'' with shoes. He obviously wasn't the greatest defender in the world and that's what makes him this low on the list, because with a good defensive game to match what he did on the boards and offensively he could have been at least Top 15.

20. Elgin Baylor - Kind of the Kobe of his time in the sense that, at least in today's debates of these lists, he's one of most polarizing players. Some people say he was amazing, some people say he was very overrated. In my opinion based on watching him play (I've tried to watch as many full games of the Top 20 or so players from before my time) I would say he was a skilled and talented player that was ahead of his time.

[Legends66NBA7]

KG>>>>>>Dirk, its not even debatable there has been like 3 KG vs Dirk forums in the past 2 months or so and both were a overwhelmingly in support of KG. Dirk pales in comparison to the greatness that is "The Big Ticket"

:oldlol: @ not even debatable and pales in comparison.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Dirk >>> KG

Give me the lead dog.

[bmulls]

Wall of text + retarded list without Dirk


You disrespect Dirk in every single thread about him that I've ever seen.

[RIP CITY]

You disrespect Dirk in every single thread about him that I've ever seen.

"Disrespect" or did I just state my opinion that people put him on a level I don't feel he ever reached. The only time I've come close to disrespecting him is when I'm responding to noosaman, who calls him "The Almighty", "Dirkules" and said in that thread that he's better than Duncan and just said in this thread he is #11 All-Time, I just like to mess with him because of his nonsense (I don't think noosaman even believes what he says, I think it's a gimmick). It's not like I've been going around saying he's worse than random scrub PF's (he was being compared to Duncan and KG in those threads).

How is my list retarded? It's not like anyone on that list I posted above is some nobody, those are All-Time greats that have every right to be listed that high and are in the discussion for Top 20 on everyone else's list too, probably would be on yours too. It's not like I've said anything about him that hasn't been said about him by most people. He's a great scorer that doesn't do anything else well and was a bad defensive player. It's just the truth.

It's not like I'm saying Dirk isn't a Top 100 player or some ridiculous sh*t, I just don't think he's a Top 20 player of ALL-TIME, he's in the 30's range for me. Being a Top 30-35 All-Time player is pretty damn impressive. He's just overrated in my opinion. Thanks for not reading my post and just assuming I posted it to hate on Dirk, I never mentioned him in the post at all.

[Legends66NBA7]

It's not like I'm saying Dirk isn't a Top 100 player or some ridiculous sh*t, I just don't think he's a Top 20 player of ALL-TIME, he's in the 30's range for me. Being a Top 30-35 All-Time player is pretty damn impressive. He's just overrated in my opinion. Thanks for not reading my post and just assuming I posted it to hate on Dirk, I never mentioned him in the post at all.

Going by your own criteria though:


The ability to maintain or surpass regular season play in the postseason is also a big factor for me. Players crumble in tense situations and aren't as mentally strong as others to handle the pressure of Playoff basketball. Playoff performance is something that should be valued very highly on these lists.

You mentioned it in your own criteria.

I don't see how Dirk shouldn't be at least Top 25 on your list, with a good case for Top 20.

With that, who do you have over him if he's in your Top 30-35 ?

[RIP CITY]

With that, who do you have over him if he's in your Top 30-35 ?

I guess you missed Dirk in the Playoffs before 2011. It's amazing how that one run has suddenly turned a player from choker, into this All-Time great Playoff performer.

Even if you want to dismiss his embarrassing play in the 2005 NBA Finals, the #8 Seed Warriors beating his 64 win Mavs while he quivered in the corner in Game 6 and his other Playoff failures and just go by his Playoff PPG it's misleading. I'll never say Dirk is a bad Playoff player, he scores his points like he usually does. But he's disappeared in embarrassing fashion. In 2011 he finally put it all together. I give him all the credit in the world for that. But my number 1 criteria is who was the better player period (that includes defense, where Dirk is one of the worst defensive players in the Top 50). All the criteria I posted comes into play in a bundle but the main thing I start with is who is the best when they were at their best.

Keep in mind I'm not one of these people who is constantly thinking about these GOAT lists. I usually generalize off the top of my head. So 30-35 might even be alittle low, it was a general estimation based on players I was circulating in my mind, I didn't go further than that. I'll explain why I think these players are better since you're specifically asking about Dirk's ranking.

21. Karl Malone - Better peak, better prime, better scorer, better rebounder, better passer, better defender. You can argue scoring, because Dirk can score from more spots on the floor and is alittle better creating his own shot but Malone had 4 seasons where he put up more PPG than Dirk's career high. Both were considered chokers in their Playoff career but Malone did not face any real drop off, he wasn't a bad Playoff player, he, like Dirk, just happened to come up lame most of his career. Dirk won a ring and Malone did not, but there is alot of context that goes into the two situations. Malone was simply a much better overall player.

22. Bob Pettit - A dominant big man in his era, he put up thoroughly dominating numbers. His FG% was low but back then shooting that low of a % wasn't low, even for a big man (His percentages did get better as the game advanced). He was also dominate on the defense for the most part. Obviously this one I'm basing more on research and dominance, difficult to find footage of Pettit but I think it's clear he was more dominant in his era.

23. John Havlicek - Yes he was one of Bill Russell's two sidekicks but when Russell retired he put up 3 straight seasons of 24/7.8/6.8, 28.9/9/7.5 and 27/8.2/7.5 while being an excellent defensive player. So, while he wasn't the scorer Dirk was overall, his scoring peak was somewhat comparable (worse FG% and era competition give Dirk a nice edge) but Havlicek was a better rebounder considering height/position, a better playmaker and a much better defender. His overall play all on levels defeats Dirk's scoring advantage IMO. Havlicek was also the leading scorer and arguably best player on a Championship team without Russell/Cousy, since Dirk's ring will probably be brought up.

24. Patrick Ewing - Probably the most underrated player on ISH. To save time, take most of what I said about Malone and apply it to Ewing. Ewing was an elite defender as well. Comparable scorer to Dirk (actually had a better career high though Dirk has more seasons of 26+), much better rebounder and 3 times the defender. Simply a better overall player despite him also having troubles with choking, still a very good Playoff performer, led the Knicks to great success, just ran into better teams (Jordan's Bulls mainly).

25. Scottie Pippen - While being one of, if not the greatest "sidekick" ever, he was a great player who was capable of leading a team. He was definitely not the scorer Dirk was (though he was capable of scoring 25 PPG if he focused only on scoring like Dirk mostly does), he was a better rebounder (when a 7'0'' only averages 2 more RPG in his prime than a 6'7'' SF does in his prime, he's not better), better passer, better leader, had more impact on the game and was obviously 50x the defender Dirk was. Scottie was also the better Playoff performer and clutch player (on both ends of the court).

26. Kevin McHale - McHale is one of the greatest "sidekicks" of All-Time but was capable of carrying a team, even outplayed Bird at times in the Playoffs (rarely). One of the best post players ever with a career FG% of 55%. Because he played alongside Bird (among others), his PPG don't compare favorably over the long haul with Dirk, he did put up 26 PPG as a second option (.05 less than Dirk's career high as a number #1 option), so while Dirk is the better scorer overall, there is no doubt that McHale was capable of putting up similar numbers on All-Time great %'s. He was a better rebounder (eerily similar rebounding numbers but with Parish and Bird on the frontline with him), a great Playoff performer that always stepped up when needed and played far superior defense. Averaged 24/10 in the 3 NBA Finals the Celtics won. McHale was a better overall player.

27. Elvin Hayes - Dominant scorer and rebounder, very good defensive player. Hayes has 3 years with a higher PPG than Dirk, so while Dirk is still the better scorer overall and averaged 23+ for more seasons (9 to 7), Hayes was a more dominant in his 3 year peak. The difference is he was a dominant rebounder, a great shot blocker and defensive player, while Dirk is an average rebounder and bad defender. Clearly the better overall player in his prime but if you want, he also was the best player on the Bullets Championship team (MUCH better numbers than Unseld, the Finals MVP).

28. Dwyane Wade - Wade just qualifies for my minimum of 8 high level seasons because of this season. Now, if you have different criteria for these lists, Dirk may be ranked higher. But Wade is was clearly the better player in his peak/prime years. Obviously great Playoff player, very good rebounder for a SG, very good playmaker, always been a better defender than Dirk. Better scorer than Dirk, I hope there is not question about that. His career is far from over so he'll probably end up raising up this list as well.

29. Dominique Wilkins - This one will piss people off because he didn't have the team success or Awards, most people don't have him this high on their list because criteria is different than mine but there is no question in my mind that Wilkins was a better player in his prime years than Dirk. Better scorer by far, and since Dirk is basically a scorer only, like Wilkins was for the most part, that alone should give him the edge really. Add that as a 6'7'' SF he averaged 2-3 less RPG than a 7'0'' PF, I would say he was just as good. Averaged similar APG though I would give Dirk the slight edge and was certainly a much better defensive player. He was definitely the better player, I'll puke if anyone says otherwise. The team success/Awards might put Dirk higher on some lists but not mine. In comparison to his era, Dirk always had better supporting casts than Wilkins did in his era.

30. Dirk Nowitzki

There are a few more that are debatable but I'll put him there. That doesn't include players like...

Allen Iverson, who was undoubtedly the better basketball player in his prime but because of his history as a bad teammate and play hurting his teams I'll give it to Dirk.

Tracy McGrady, also better in his prime (better scorer, rebounder, passer and defender). But the longevity difference is just too much.

Grant Hill, who obviously had his career cut in half in the middle of his prime but was easily a much better player than Dirk ever was. Comparable scorer, better rebounder, better passer, better defender.

Dirk is a great scorer but he's a very one dimensional, average rebounder (8.2 Rebs per 36 minutes, less than Amare who gets BLASTED for being a "horrible" rebounder ), a pretty terrible defender for most of his career (just as bad as Amare & Boozer who get BLASTED for being "worst PF defenders").

Dirk has been fortunate to play for one of the best franchises of his era, that have consistently kept the Mavericks flush with talent and are year in and year out one of the most talented & deepest teams in the NBA. He's had better supporting casts during his career than all but a hand full of the other stars of his era and came up short every single time outside of 2011 (with another excellent, underrated supporting cast). The Mavs were the most talented team in the NBA a few of those years, especially if you DO believe he is Top 20 ever.

The problem I have with Dirk, is that I consider him to be the best role player of All-Time, which is both a great distinction and obviously a knock on him at the same time. He's a scorer, that's his role, that's what he does best. He doesn't do anything else on the floor at a more than slightly above average rate. He's not a leader (his own Coaches words) and while he now has this suddenly incredible rep as a Clutch player, he's been decidedly un-clutch for the majority of his career. The Mavs have done a great job of putting pieces around him, pieces that cover up his weaknesses. There is no coincidence that the Mavs finally got over the top because he was surrounded by defensive players, particularly a defensive anchor that can cover his ass in the paint, a great pass first point guard, a clutch SG to help him in crunch time, an extremely deep team and a great Coach that changed the makeup of the team to a more defensive, mentally/physically tough team. A team where he played his role to a T and had his best Playoff run ever by a large margin because he had more freedom than ever to just focus on what he does best and block out the other pressures of being "the man".

[jalbert009]

Let us try to come to some kind of consensus list of 11-20.

For every player voted in 11-15 spots they will be awarded 1.0 points.
For every player voted in 16-20 spots they will be awarded 0.5 points.

These scores are collected from people who made a 11-20 list.

Lists not counted as there is no exact order:
Legends66NBA7
Alan Shore

Player Scores: (Scores below 2 were not listed)

Oscar Robertson = 8.5
Jerry West = 9.5
Lebron James = 8.0
Moses Malone = 10.0
Julius Erving = 8.5
Charles Barkley = 4.0
Kevin Garnett = 4.0
Dirk Nowitzki = 3.5
David Robinson = 3.0
Isiah Thomas = 3.0
John Havlicek = 2.5
Karl Malone = 3.0

Going by these Scores, we could say that from data from ISH members that our top 11-20 players are as follows:

11. Moses Malone
12. Jerry West
13. Oscar Robertson / Julius Erving
14. Julius Erving / Oscar Robertson
15. Lebron James
16 & 17. Tie between Charles Barkley & Kevin Garnett
18. Dirk Nowitzki
19 & 20. Tie Between Karl Malone, Isiah Thomas & David Robinson

How do you guys feel about this list?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

[Round Mound]

1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Shaquielle Oniel
5-Hakeem Olajuwon
6-Larry Bird
7-Magic Johnson
8-Lebron James (He Will Be Top 5 When He Retires)
9-Oscar Robertson
10-Charles Barkley
11-Tim Duncan
12-Moses Malone
13-Julius Erving
14-Elgin Baylor
15-David Robinson
16-Kobe Bryant
17-Jerry West
18-Karl Malone
19-Kevin Garnett
20-Rick Barry

[kenny817]

Dirk Nowitzki is way the **** overrated if he's cracking Top 20 list, SMH.

Moron

Will be top10 ALL TIME in scoring before his contract is over

MVP...Finals MVP

Idiot

[DirkNowitzki41]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

:applause:

[jalbert009]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

I don't want to get into a KG/Dirk debate on this thread. There are already a few existing ones. But Saying KG has no case over Dirk is ridiculous if you as me.

[RIP CITY]

Moron

Will be top10 ALL TIME in scoring before his contract is over

MVP...Finals MVP

Idiot

It's the only thing he's above average at on the basketball court, I should hope he ends his career high on the All-Time list in scoring. Mavs fan.

[StateOfMind12]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog
There is a pretty big difference between not seeing the case for something and not agreeing with something.

The only way you can't see the case for why KG is better than Dirk is if scoring is the only thing that matters to you and that's it. KG was better than Dirk at everything else. He had a better peak, more versatile player, better all-around player, etc.

I understand the case for Dirk but I don't agree with it.

[kenny817]

It's the only thing he's above average at on the basketball court, I should hope he ends his career high on the All-Time list in scoring. Mavs fan.

So its a negative that the only thing Dirk is good at is scoring?

That's like saying Peyton Manning is only good at throwing touchdowns

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

SMH @ ISHiots

[RIP CITY]

Not seeing the case for KG over Dirk. Dirk did way more as a franchise player/lead dog

It's not that difficult, just look at the Mavericks supporting cast every year compared to Minnesota's, then take into account that KG is better at everything on the court besides scoring and still scored 20-24 PPG and there you go. One played for one of the best franchises/Owners/GM's in the League since 2000 and the other played for an inept franchise led by Kevin McHale as GM. Pretty simple actually.

[RIP CITY]

So its a negative that the only thing Dirk is good at is scoring?

That's like saying Peyton Manning is only good at throwing touchdowns

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

SMH @ ISHiots


It's absolutely nothing like Peyton Manning, GTFOH. Peyton Manning really has one job, to pass the ball (it's more intricate than that but in the end, that's the job).

Basketball players have to play offense, defense, rebound, pass and all of those things have different levels of how to get the job done.

Offense is post scoring, mid-range and long range, passing, getting to line and shooting FT's, rebounding. Defense is one on one post defense, one on one perimeter defense, rebounding, shot blocking, etc. etc. KG did all of those things better except for mid-range/long range shooting/FT's and still scored 20-24 PPG on top of it. He was just a better overall player.

[raid09]

So its a negative that the only thing Dirk is good at is scoring?

That's like saying Peyton Manning is only good at throwing touchdowns

That's the point of the damn game...sigh

SMH @ ISHiots

Did you think about this post at all before you made it? Guessing not...

[Kews1]

That's the point of the damn game...sigh


THe point of the game is to score more points to win yes. But there are a number of factors that contribute to that. Dirk only excels at one, KG excels at pretty much ever aspect of the game.

[StateOfMind12]

THe point of the game is to score more points to win yes. But there are a number of factors that contribute to that. Dirk only excels at one, KG excels at pretty much ever aspect of the game.
+1....not to mention the scoring difference isn't as lopsided as many Dirk supporters are making it out to be. KG averaged 22-24 ppg during his prime with Twolves whereas Dirk averaged 24-26 ppg in his. There is a 2 ppg difference between the two in favor of Dirk which is not that big of a deal.


Some people are also suggesting that scoring was a weakness for him KG. I would like to know whose weaknesses aren't scoring if KG's scoring is supposedly one.

[Legends66NBA7]

I guess you missed Dirk in the Playoffs before 2011.

I didn't.

Infact, going by your own criteria, again:


The ability to maintain or surpass regular season play in the postseason is also a big factor for me. Players crumble in tense situations and aren't as mentally strong as others to handle the pressure of Playoff basketball. Playoff performance is something that should be valued very highly on these lists.

Let's check out Dirk since 2001:

2001
RS: 22/9/2/1/1 on 47/39/84 (82 games)
PO: 23/8/1/1/1 on 42/28/88 (10 games)

*Dirk's first playoff run wasn't that eventful, but there are some games to talk about. His team faced elimination 5 times. Here was his production in those games:

Game 3 vs Jazz: 33/10/2/1blk on 9-19fg 2-7(3pt) 13-14ft
Game 4 vs Jazz: 33/8/2 on 10-19fg 5-10(3pt) 8-9ft
Game 5 vs Jazz: 18/4/1/1stl on 3-11fg 2-4(3pt) 10-10ft
Game 4 vs Spurs: 30/9/1/1stl on 11-18fg 0-1(3pt) 8-8ft
Game 5 vs Spurs: 42/18/6stl/2ast/1blk on 14-24fg 0-1(3pt) 14-18ft

Now granted, Dirk didn't play well earlier in those series, but in 4 of 5 elimination games he did raise his game in "tense situations". And it was just his first playoff run and for the Dallas Mavericks, who were in their first playoffs since 1990... also won their first playoff series since 1988.

2002
RS: 23/10/2/1/1 on 48/40/85 (76 games)
PO: 28/13/2/2/1 on 45/57/88 (8 games)

*Dirk's first all-star year and he raises his game in the playoffs. He had a great first round but a much better Kings team beats the Mavs in 5. Dirk also struggles. 1 elimination game:

Game 5 vs Kings: 33/12/3/1/1 on 13-25fg 3-5(3pt) 3-4ft

2003
RS: 25/10/3/1/1 on 46/38/88 (80 games)
PO: 25/11/2/1/1 on 48/44/91 (17 games)

*Mavs make it to the WCF for the first time since 1988. Dirk Raises his game in the playoffs. Unfortunately for Dirk, he gets an injury during Game 3 and is unable to play the rest of the series. The big "what if ?" is, what happens if Dirk rides out the rest of that series ? Are the Mavs going to the Finals ? If so, they probably win their first title back in 2003. 2 Elimination games:

Game 7 vs Blazers: 31/11/1/2/3blk on 12-21fg 1-4(3pt) 6-6ft (this after coming of one of his worst games as a pro.)
Game 7 vs Kings: 30/19/2/1/1 in 12-20fg 3-4(3pt) 3-4ft (granted, C-Webb wasn't play after Game 2 of this series, so yes, this series could have also gone both ways.)

2004
RS: 22/9/3/1/1 on 46/34/88 (77 games)
PO: 27/12/3blk/1/1 on 45/47/86 (5 games)

*Dirk raises his game in the playoffs. Mavs, however, are eliminated from the first round in the "Dirk era". 1 elimination game:

Game 5 vs Kings: 31/14/4blk/1stl on 11-23fg 2-2(3pt) 7-7ft

2005:
RS: 26/10/3/2blk/1stl on 46/40/87 (78 games)
PO: 24/10/3/2blk 1stl on 40/33/83 (13 games)

*Dirk had a great regular season but didn't increase his play in the playoffs and was inconsistent. His scoring and efficiency is down across the board. Mavs lose to the favourite Suns. Also, didn't play up to par in his past elimination game performances:

Game 7 vs Rockets: 14/14/3blk/2ast/1stl on 5-14fg 0-1(3pt) 4-6ft
Game 6 vs Suns: 28/13/6 on 9-25fg 2-5 (3pt) 8-10ft

2006
RS: 27/9/3/1/1 on 48/41/90 (81 games)
PO: 27/11/3/1/1 on 47/34/90 (23 games)

*Mavs as a team overachieved and reach the Finals for the first time in franchise history. However, there are two sides to this season and people remember the Mavs blowing a 2-0 series lead and the series. Dirk, yes choked, on the free throw line, and Game 4 to follow. If he doesn't choke and the Mavs win the title, then it's clearly his best season. 2 elimination games:

Game 7 vs Spurs: 37/15/3/1/1 on 11-20fg 0-1(3pt) 15-16ft
Game 6 vs Heat: 29/15/2/2blk on 10-22fg 1-2(3pt) 8-8ft

2007
RS: 25/9/3/1/1 on 50/42/90 (78 games)
PO: 20/11/2/2/1 on 38/21/84 (6 games)

*Dirk's MVP RS, but we all know what happens in the playoffs. No excuses here, Dirk was terrible for his standards and the Mavs were upset big time (though looking back, the Warriors matched this Mavs team great). 2 elimination games:

Game 5 vs Warriors: 30/12/3/1blk on 7-15fg 2-3(3pt) 14-15ft
Game 6 vs Warriors: 8/10/2/1stl on 2-13fg 0-6(3pt) 4-4ft

2008
RS: 24/9/4/1/1 on 48/36/88 (77 games)
PO: 27/12/4/1blk on 47/33/81 (5 games)

*Dirk has a rebound year from his playoff production, but his Mavs are beaten by the favourite Hornets. Elimination game:

Game 5 vs Hornets: 22/13/6/2blk on 8-21fg 1-5(3pt) 5-7ft

2009
RS: 26/8/2/1/1 on 48/36/89 (81 games)
PO: 27/10/3/1/1 on 52/29/93 (10 games)

*Dirk raises his play in the playoffs and the Mavs upset the #2 ranked Spurs, before losing to the more talented and favourite Nuggets in 5. Elimination games:

Game 4 vs Nuggets: 44/13/3/2/1 on 14-25fg 16-17ft
Game 5 vs Nuggets: 32/10/7/1blk on 9-17fg 2-5(3pt) 12-12ft

2010
RS: 25/8/3/1/1 on 48/42/92 (81 games)
PO: 27/8/3/1/1 on 55/57/95 (5 games)

*Mavs gets upset again by a lower seed, but not because of Dirk's play. Unlike the Warriors series, this isn't Dirk choking. More like a roster of players not synching well enough for a short period of time. 2 elimination games:

Game 5 vs Spurs: 15/9/2/2/3 on 7-14fg 1-1ft
Game 6 vs Spurs: 33/5/4 on 13-21fg 2-4ft 5-6ft


So, as you can see, Dirk had a lot more moments of overachieving and playing great in most elimination games (tense situations). Yes, there were moments he choked, but I think everyone gets the "choking" label, until they get their first title.


It's amazing how that one run has suddenly turned a player from choker, into this All-Time great Playoff performer.

This quote can be applied to many different players, really.

And why shouldn't Dirk be considered one of the greatest playoff performers ? There are only 3 other players who have career playoff averages of 25+ppg and 10+rpg. He more than has a case.


But he's disappeared in embarrassing fashion.

And like I pointed out, he's also risen to the occasion, more so.

[Legends66NBA7]

But my number 1 criteria is who was the better player period (that includes defense, where Dirk is one of the worst defensive players in the Top 50).

Yeah and I'm sure a guy like Magic and Barkley are still getting ranked higher even though they aren't good/great on defense either. The point should be about impact. Bill Russell doesn't rank lower than Top 10, even though his main criticism is offense.


Your Top 30

I appreciate the thoughtful response. It's your opinion on that list and I'll respect, even though I don't see eye to eye about some of them (it happens).


Dirk is a great scorer but he's a very one dimensional

I disagree here. Dirk has a very polished offensive player to me. He can post up, hit the mid-range jumper, hit the 3, etc... He's just more jump shooter oriented, but that doesn't mean he has one dimension. I actually would apply that to Amare.


average rebounder (8.2 Rebs per 36 minutes, less than Amare who gets BLASTED for being a "horrible" rebounder ), a pretty terrible defender for most of his career (just as bad as Amare & Boozer who get BLASTED for being "worst PF defenders").

Yeah, I don't see too much of an argument there... but then again, he steps up in the playoffs with his rebounding to 10+. That's got be respected. Amare's actually goes lower in the playoffs and Boozer ? 10 a game in the RS and 12 a game in the playoffs... Sometimes, popular perception is misleading. I don't think Dirk's been "terrible" for most of his career, but get your point.


Dirk has been fortunate to play for one of the best franchises of his era, that have consistently kept the Mavericks flush with talent and are year in and year out one of the most talented & deepest teams in the NBA.

Yeah, starting 2001. But guess what ? That's when Dirk started to be the franchise guy. The Mavericks missed the playoffs for 10 years in a row. Sure, the Mavs had talent, but nothing mind blowing. They sometimes didn't have the correct talent to win titles. Sometimes it was too much offense and no defense (2002-2004 Mavs). Sure, Cuban put a lot of investment into the Mavs (though, let's not overrate it), but Dirk also showcased he was a legit superstar.


He's had better supporting casts during his career than all but a hand full of the other stars of his era and came up short every single time outside of 2011 (with another excellent, underrated supporting cast).

Which years are you talking about ?

And check the numbers above, most of the time, they were losing to the favourites and Dirk, for the most part, played great in the elimination games. Infact, they've overachieved more.


The Mavs were the most talented team in the NBA a few of those years, especially if you DO believe he is Top 20 ever.

Again, which years ?

And, what about the Top 20 ?

Players that I have in my arbitrary Top 20, include Moses Malone and Julius Erving, who were both on the stacked 83 Sixers (no Dirk team compares to that team)... infact, Erving had many talented rosters, arguably the most talented around he late 70s, early 80s...

Kevin Garnett ? 2008 Celtics and has been on very talented Celtics rosters since that team as well.

Charles Barkley ? 93-95 Suns were also very talented, arguably most talented during that span.

LeBron James ? 2011 team was arguably the most talented, some argue were...

There have been others (yourself as well) who have the likes of Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Havlieck, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, etc... all those guys played with far superior help than Dirk.

But why does Dirk have to be penalized for having talented rosters ? Besides, I don't even know which years are in discussion for him having the most loaded rosters.


The problem I have with Dirk, is that I consider him to be the best role player of All-Time, which is both a great distinction and obviously a knock on him at the same time.

Yeah, I have to strongly disagree about this.


He's a scorer, that's his role, that's what he does best. He doesn't do anything else on the floor at a more than slightly above average rate.

Rebounding in the playoffs ?


He's not a leader (his own Coaches words)

Which coach ?

If it's Nelson or Johnson, I could care less. Neither of them have won rings as coaches to tell me otherwise about leadership.

Now if it's Coach Carlisle ? Well, he also said Dirk is on the level of Larry Bird.

Bottom line, coaches say a lot of things. Really depends how you take those words.


and while he now has this suddenly incredible rep as a Clutch player, he's been decidedly un-clutch for the majority of his career.

It was always there, but the title sealed it.

The numbers back it up for the majority of (you can't be "clutch" or play very well all the time) his games and being "un-clutch" depends also on not just Dirk but the rest of his teammates.



The Mavs have done a great job of putting pieces around him, pieces that cover up his weaknesses.

They didn't do a "great" job in the past the, which is what I mentioned before... they had a sometimes very unbalanced teams before.


There is no coincidence that the Mavs finally got over the top because he was surrounded by defensive players

So were the 2006 Mavs, without the defensive minded center.


particularly a defensive anchor that can cover his ass in the paint, a great pass first point guard, a clutch SG to help him in crunch time,

Chandler was very vital to the team. This year, even though defense was still very good, proved he was more valuable than Brendan Haywood.

Kidd, great pass first point guard, but also inefficient at times on his own offense, unless for 3's.

Are you talking about Jason Terry being the clutch SG ? Because if so, yes he was clutch, but in his past playoff years ?

Like you mentioned in your criteria, you might want check out Terry's flameouts in the playoffs, plus he wasn't a great defensive player of this group.


an extremely deep team

And here's where I feel people overrate that 2011 Mavericks team.

They weren't "extremely" deep:

http://gyazo.com/443023694ede60a92fee1d0742a4b831.png

What screams out "extremely deep" ? Not as an all-around offensive and defensive team.

Infact, I've stated that this team was carried for the most part by Dirk and only a few other players have done with less.

Agree, more or less with coach Carlisle.


A team where he played his role to a T and had his best Playoff run ever by a large margin because he had more freedom than ever to just focus on what he does best and block out the other pressures of being "the man".

He also had a lot of freedom on previous Mavericks teams, just either they weren't good enough to close it out, Dirk got injured, or they underachieved.


Yeah, it's an interesting debate. Honestly don't see Dirk as that fortunate for his career, there are things that people overrate about Dirk but definitely nothing to do with his on-court play.

[Smoke117]

1-Michael Jordan
2-Wilt Chamberlain
3-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
4-Shaquielle Oniel
5-Hakeem Olajuwon
6-Larry Bird
7-Magic Johnson
8-Lebron James (He Will Be Top 5 When He Retires)
9-Oscar Robertson
10-Charles Barkley
11-Tim Duncan
12-Moses Malone
13-Julius Erving
14-Elgin Baylor
15-David Robinson
16-Kobe Bryant
17-Jerry West
18-Karl Malone
19-Kevin Garnett
20-Rick Barry

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

[Legends66NBA7]

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

I think he had Stockton over Garnett before... guess he switched that.

:oldlol:

[WillC]

Rick Barry? That's just ****ing absurd. He is not top 20 all time.

Rick Barry in the top 20 is certainly not absurd.

Basketball's 100 Greatest Players (by Wayne Patterson) ranks Barry as the 10th best player of all-time.

In SPORT Magazine's 50th Anniversary issue, Peter Vecsey also ranked Barry as the 10th best player of all-time.

Both those publications are about 15 years old and were admittedly a bit too pro-Rick Barry, so he's realistically probably in the 17-25 range now.

Bill Simmons ranks him 26th despite hating Barry's guts. Slam magazine's 'Top 500' ranks Barry 21st.

So top 20 is hardly absurd.

[noosaman]

So you saying Dirk>Moses Malone, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson and Lebron James? :lol I'd like to see your argument there...



Dirk aint in the top 15-20. Barkley however is debatable.

Dirk is better than those guys except for West.

[Kews1]

Dirk is better than those guys except for West.
you have to be kidding

[noosaman]

you have to be kidding

He will go down as the most unappreciated superstar in sports history. He will also go down as one of the most genuine athletes ever.

This dude made playoffs runs with a starting 5 of dampier, antoine wright, terry, and injured josh howard OUT WEST.

No other great team has been as reliant on one player as this Mavs team has been since 2004.

[Odinn]

you have to be kidding
And, as for primes and peaks, Jerry West arguably should be ranked as the last of them.:oldlol: Moses, Big O and LeBron had a greater peak than West and Nowitzki.

[Kews1]

He will go down as the most unappreciated superstar in sports history. He will also go down as one of the most genuine athletes ever.

This dude made playoffs runs with a starting 5 of dampier, antoine wright, terry, and injured josh howard OUT WEST.

No other great team has been as reliant on one player as this Mavs team has been since 2004.

didnt know being unappreciated and genuine increased your all time standing.

[BlueandGold]

Anything after top10 is pretty tough but this is mine

11. Oscar Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Karl Malone
15. Isiah Thomas
16. John Havlichek
17. Bob Cousey
18. Charles Barkley
19. Dirk Nowitizki (epic 2011 run, beat out #20)
20. Lebron James (epic 2011 choke, lost to #19)

[Round Mound]

I think he had Stockton over Garnett before... guess he switched that.

:oldlol:

Bob Pettit and Rick Barry should be there. I had to choose between both cause Stockton was not more dominant than them.

Isiah Thomas over Barkley? :oldlol:

[WillC]

Anything after top10 is pretty tough but this is mine

11. Oscar Robinson
12. Moses Malone
13. Julius Erving
14. Karl Malone
15. Isiah Thomas
16. John Havlichek
17. Bob Cousey
18. Charles Barkley
19. Dirk Nowitizki (epic 2011 run, beat out #20)
20. Lebron James (epic 2011 choke, lost to #19)

I'm not sure we should value the opinion of someone who can't spell Cousy, Havlicek or Nowitzki's names correctly...

[Alan Shore]

5 pages and walt frazier doesn't even break the top 30? that's a glaring omission.

here are the top 9 in no particular order, all of whom i have seen play with the exception of russell and robertson:

jordan
magic
bird
russell
robertson
lebron
duncan
olajuwon
shaq

they made every one around them better, even shaq-- who learned how to pass out of double teams by the time he played for the lakers thanks to pete newell's big man camp. all were positive-sum players with extraordinary BBIQ.

the next 11 are trickier but in no particular order, though i never saw pettitt play.

abdul-jabbar
chamberlain
bob pettitt
havlicek
bryant
barkley
stockton
rick barry
scotty pippen
dirk nowitzki
julius erving

the next 10 players becomes an increasingly-biased free-for-all.


i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

[Odinn]

i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[WillC]

i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3) bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

I think you should stop watching basketball. It's really not working out well for you.

LeBron James and others above Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?! Are you kidding me?

Pippen above Erving and Malone?!

Tim Duncan above Wilt Chamberlain?!

What a joke.

[riseagainst]

i'll revise the list to accord with the poll:

1) jordan
1) russell
3)bird
3) magic
5) duncan
5) shaq
7) olajuwon
8) robertson
8) lebron james
10) chamberlain
10) abdul-jabbar
12) bryant
13) havlicek
13) pippen
14) pettitt
14) rick barry
14) julius erving
16) dirk
16) barkley
18) stockton
19) moses malone
20) walt frazier

in my opinion it is impossible to tease apart some of these players which is why i have a good number of repeats.

LOL lebron d1ckriding at its finest. And LOL at the rest of the list. :roll: :roll:

I think you literally started watching basketball in July 2012.
:lol

[Alan Shore]

I think you should stop watching basketball. It's really not working out well for you.

LeBron James and others above Kareem Abdul-Jabbar?! Are you kidding me?

Pippen above Erving and Malone?!

Tim Duncan above Wilt Chamberlain?!

What a joke.


my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.

[riseagainst]

my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.

:lol
those would definitely drop your boy outta the top 20.

[Yung D-Will]

my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.


http://www.miscupload.com/upload/482210517657332074775679.gif

[Alan Shore]

:lol
those would definitely drop your boy outta the top 20.


not a big fan of lebron james truth be told, but he seems to have, like dirk, taken a big step later in his career instead of emerging fully formed like several other top 10 players.

the criteria is not meant to be applicable across the board for each and every player but if the player possesses more than half of these criteria and in sufficient amount then he passes the test.

my hunch based on your attitude towards lbj is you are a big fan of bryant and there is nothing wrong with that.

[riseagainst]

not a big fan of lebron james truth be told, but he seems to have, like dirk, taken a big step later in his career instead of emerging fully formed like several other top 10 players.

the criteria is not meant to be applicable across the board for each and every player but if the player possesses more than half of these criteria and in sufficient amount then he passes the test.

my hunch based on your attitude towards lbj is you are a big fan of bryant and there is nothing wrong with that.

no, has nothing to do with personal biases. I think Lebron is currently at where most people would place him. 11-13 area. Kobe is definitely top 10, like what most people say. But the rest of your list is just outrageous: Kareem at 10. :rolleyes:

[Alan Shore]

no, has nothing to do with personal biases. I think Lebron is currently at where most people would place him. 11-13 area. Kobe is definitely top 10, like what most people say. But the rest of your list is just outrageous: Kareem at 10. :rolleyes:


i had the benefit of seeing him play. if he were all that you would wish him to be then he should have dominated the 70s, but he lacked many of the criteria i listed in sufficient degree. he had some very solid players to work with and his stats are undeniable as are chamberlain's and erving's and baylor's and yes bryant's too.

as soon as magic johnson arrived his career took on a renaissance.

i guess the litmus test is the question: "which player would you start a team with and build around?" and base your rankings on that.

that's pretty much what my list is about-- because basketball is the ultimate team sport. hope that clarifies things.

[Legends66NBA7]

Bob Pettit and Rick Barry should be there. I had to choose between both cause Stockton was not more dominant than them.

Isiah Thomas over Barkley?

Let's get two things straight here:

1) It's your call on that list. Pettit isn't the problem and Barry is a stretch, but I don't have a problem with it. Their both over Stockon, though.

2) Why are you bringing up Zeke over Barkley to me ? I'm not the one who has Zeke over Barkley, there is a poster who did but it's not me. Infact, here's my Top 20-25:


No order:

LeBron James
Moses Malone
Jerry West
Oscar Robertson
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Karl Malone
George Mikan
Dirk Nowtizki
Julius Erving

Including what they did in their era. I only feel a bit uncomfortable with my Mikan ranking, but I feel he did a lot too for his era and changed the game.

Later reconsidering my Top 25:


I would say the next 5 players, to round up the Top 25 would be (no order):

David Robinson
John Havlicek
Elgin Baylor
Dwyane Wade
Bob Pettit (Actually, re thinking about it... I would replace Mikan with Pettit)

@fplii

Why Pippen over Robinson and Barkley ? I think Zeke's too high, as well.

I even mentioned to a poster Zeke was too high...

Again, what about Zeke ? Point out the right poster when your trying to be funny. I don't have either Zeke or Stockton in my Top 25 (I don't have it in order either, but their not there)... Their probably Top 30-35 range.

I don't consider Zeke over Barkley. And Stockton over Garnett is a joke, you posted that not me, before switching it over.

[jlauber]

my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.

So a Hakeem, who seldom could even get his team's to 50 wins, beat up one of his teammates, basically demanded a trade, lost EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND (and most were blowouts), and was nowhere near the all-around dominant player that Chamberlain was...is ranked FIVE slots ahead of him?

One of the most ridiculous posts that I have read in a while...which is saying something.

:facepalm

[G.O.A.T]

my criteria are:

making others around you better
BBIQ
positive-sum player
will
leadership
clutch, ability to focus

individual stats and media-based awards are not as important to me... no joke.

The problem I have with criteria like these is that they are 100% subjective. It's very hard for anyone to relate to the conclusions you draw unless they think just like you.

[Alan Shore]

So a Hakeem, who seldom could even get his team's to 50 wins, beat up one of his teammates, basically demanded a trade, lost EIGHT times in the FIRST ROUND (and most were blowouts), and was nowhere near the all-around dominant player that Chamberlain was...is ranked FIVE slots ahead of him?

One of the most ridiculous posts that I have read in a while...which is saying something.

:facepalm


3 spots ahead, yes.

ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. olajuwon was hampered by ralph sampson who was a horrendous underachiever. then he was surrounded by a lot of bums while trying to get past the lakers. chamberlain for all his dominance underachieved. he admitted his selfishness in conversations with bill russell and he proved how good he could have been when he "decided" to show his critics that he could be a supreme facilitator by leading the league in assists per game two years running, if memory serves. one of those season he won the title with the sixers.

dominance does not correlate with greatness in a team sport. chamberlain is the wellspring of this fallacy.

[oolalaa]

3 spots ahead, yes.

ridiculous is in the eye of the beholder. olajuwon was hampered by ralph sampson who was a horrendous underachiever. then he was surrounded by a lot of bums while trying to get past the lakers. chamberlain for all his dominance underachieved. he admitted his selfishness in conversations with bill russell and he proved how good he could have been when he "decided" to show his critics that he could be a supreme facilitator by leading the league in assists per game two years running, if memory serves. one of those season he won the title with the sixers.

dominance does not correlate with greatness in a team sport. chamberlain is the wellspring of this fallacy.

The bolded is something jlauber just doesn't seem to grasp. It leads him to conclude that M.Malone was a top 10 all time player (and better than Hakeem), which is truly ridiculous.

[Alan Shore]

The problem I have with criteria like these is that they are 100% subjective. It's very hard for anyone to relate to the conclusions you draw unless they think just like you.


you may have a point. but using statistics and awards as the source of an argument rather than support of it seems an empty exercise in my opinion.

statistics in basketball are not as objective or as definitive as people want them to be. the only team sport that statistics seem to work well for is baseball but baseball is different from soccer, football, basketball, and hockey because of its largely static nature.

as my lone supporter "oolalaa" has already implied: it is a mistake to use statistical dominance as a support for greatness in a team sport.

[DatAsh]

11. Oscar Robertson - I agree with the sentiment that for what he did in his era he should probably be ranked higher. His statistics are mind boggling for today's game. Some would say, how can you rank him lower when based on your own criteria you said you would chose the best player over pretty much everything else, and his statistics point that he is better than ______ who you have ranked ahead of him. Again, talent and skill level, impact on the game are high points for me. From a talent and skill perspective he is behind the 8 ball in terms of perimeter players because they had a chance to learn from the player that learned from the player that learned from watching him play. It may be unfair to him in some ways but it just is what it is. Still, the fact that he's still so close to the Top 10 shows the lasting power he had despite the lack of predecessorary knowledge.

12. LeBron James - Really the only reason he's not higher is because his career isn't over yet. I hate him as a fan, don't find his game particularly exciting to watch but you can't deny the talent and skill he plays with even if it isn't as pretty as other players. Though his defense is quite overrated you could argue he's the greatest offensive player ever (you can make a case he is, I don't think he is). One of the best all-around basketball players ever. He will eventually go down as a Top 10 player minimum and probably end up in the Top 5. Unfortunately.

13. Moses Malone - Dominant big man, extremely productive who fared well against any big man competition he faced.

14. Julius Erving - Ahead of his time in talent, skill and creativity. Stands the test of time despite players that who patterned their game after him and advanced the perimeter game from where it was when he played.

15. Jerry West - One of the greatest scorers of All-Time, one of the clutchest players of All-Time. His scoring skills were ahead of their time despite being very fundamentally based. Also a very good rebounder for his position and very good playmaker.

16. David Robinson - One of the most skilled and talented Centers/big men to ever play the game. He had it all and then some. Great post scorer, good mid-range jump shot, solid passer for his position, set screens, great post and weakside/team defender, great shot blocker, great rebounder, great leader, great athleticism. One of the greatest defensive players ever. Truly the total package, at his peak he was arguably as dominant as any big men in NBA history including some of the bigs in the Top 10.

17. Kevin Garnett - Will always have detractors because of his lack of Playoffs success in Minnesota and his overblown (not that there wasn't some truth to it) lack of being the go-to guy in crunch time. But this guy, like Robinson was the total package, maybe the single most versatile player of All-Time and certainly the most versatile big man of All-Time (IMO). Could score in the post, mid-range (and slightly extended), fastbreak and was a great finisher. One of the most athletic bigs of All-Time. Defensively he was a great post defender, help/team/weakside defender, very good perimeter defender for a big man and possibly the greatest pick-n-roll/pop defender of ever. One of the greatest defensive players ever. Really I have a hard time with ranking him, I always want to find a way to rank him higher just hard with the players above him. Amazing talent/skill level.

18. Isiah Thomas - I'm sure alot of people will want to call this a homer pick but to me there weren't many PG's as skilled or talented as Isiah Thomas. I've always considered him the 3rd best PG behind the Magic and Oscar, he was a great scorer capable of taking over games, one of the best passers of All-Time and a very underrated defensive player (admittedly that took much improvement from his earlier years where he was pretty average at best). He had an enormous impact on the floor.

19. Charles Barkley - I agree with Charles that he was better than Karl Malone. Not by a ton, by a very slim margin but just enough for me to rank him ahead of him (Malone is #21). Completely agree with Barkley not being as reliant on teammates to get him going offensively. Amazing rebounder, especially considering he was probably 6'6'' bare feet and maybe 6'7'' with shoes. He obviously wasn't the greatest defender in the world and that's what makes him this low on the list, because with a good defensive game to match what he did on the boards and offensively he could have been at least Top 15.

20. Elgin Baylor - Kind of the Kobe of his time in the sense that, at least in today's debates of these lists, he's one of most polarizing players. Some people say he was amazing, some people say he was very overrated. In my opinion based on watching him play (I've tried to watch as many full games of the Top 20 or so players from before my time) I would say he was a skilled and talented player that was ahead of his time.


Really like this list a lot. I like the fact that you put Robinson in there, he was an absolute monster offensively and defensively.

I with you one hundred percent on the Barkely vs Malone debate. Battle of peak/prime vs longevity in my opinion. Which do you value more? Personally I value peak/prime slightly more and therefore tend to side with Barkley, though I can see an argument either way.

I don't think I rate Isiah quite as highly as you do, but I'd put him in the 20-25 range for sure.

My list would probably be

20. John Havlicek
19. Charles Barkley
18. David Robinson
17. Bob Pettit
16. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving
14. Jerry West
13. Moses Malone
12. Oscar Robertson
11. Lebron James

I might change it up a bit when I get a chance to sit down and really think about it, but that's my first attempt for the time being.

[Legends66NBA7]

The bolded is something jlauber just doesn't seem to grasp. It leads him to conclude that M.Malone was a top 10 all time player (and better than Hakeem), which is truly ridiculous.

Moses and Hakeem were both dominant and great. They both achieved greatness in both individual and team accomplishments. Both achieved dominance in a specific skill.

Besides, even if Moses isn't Top 10, he's damn near close to it, I would assume.

Lets say for example, Moses is ranked Top 15... Moses is ranked 11th out of the Top 15... and Hakeem is Top 10, ranking 10th... is there really THAT big of a difference ? :confusedshrug:

[RIP CITY]

Yeah and I'm sure a guy like Magic and Barkley are still getting ranked higher even though they aren't good/great on defense either. The point should be about impact. Bill Russell doesn't rank lower than Top 10, even though his main criticism is offense.

Well first, you're bringing up players who in my opinion all had much, much greater impact than Dirk did and are much, much better players than Dirk. Like I said, #1 criteria is peak/prime, who was the best when they were at their best. So why you mentioned this is alittle puzzling. Second, I think Magic and Barkley were better defenders at their position than Dirk was at his. Barkley, while definitely not being a good defender, is an underrated defender, he's not nearly as bad as people make him out to be. Russell wasn't a bad offensive player by any means, he just wasn't amazing so that point missed me too.

Dirk is arguably the worst defensive player in the Top 50. That was my point and it's something he gets a pass for while other players get trashed for it endlessly.


]I appreciate the thoughtful response. It's your opinion on that list and I'll respect, even though I don't see eye to eye about some of them (it happens).

Same, I appreciate your responses as well, much better than the rest which were just "OMG, you think Dirk isn't Top 20, you moron" etc. It's nice to actually have someone make an effort to have a conversation and not completely ignore what you say and just dismiss it as stupid. I'm finding that very rare on the internet recently. Just based on this debate alone you have become one of my favorite posters on this site... and we don't even agree, lol.


I disagree here. Dirk has a very polished offensive player to me. He can post up, hit the mid-range jumper, hit the 3, etc... He's just more jump shooter oriented, but that doesn't mean he has one dimension. I actually would apply that to Amare.

I meant one dimensional as a player overall, just a scorer, not one dimensional as a scorer.


Yeah, I don't see too much of an argument there... but then again, he steps up in the playoffs with his rebounding to 10+. That's got be respected.

Definitely a fair point, I can agree with that.


Amare's actually goes lower in the playoffs and Boozer ? 10 a game in the RS and 12 a game in the playoffs... Sometimes, popular perception is misleading. I don't think Dirk's been "terrible" for most of his career, but get your point.

The second line of that was about defense. Never mentioned Boozer as a rebounder. It was Boozer and Amare are considered two of the worst defensive PF's in the NBA, yet Dirk has been just as bad as both his whole career. They are blasted time and time again for being horrendous defenders while Dirk is given much more of a pass for his defense in comparison despite being just as bad.


Yeah, starting 2001. But guess what ? That's when Dirk started to be the franchise guy. The Mavericks missed the playoffs for 10 years in a row. Sure, the Mavs had talent, but nothing mind blowing. They sometimes didn't have the correct talent to win titles. Sometimes it was too much offense and no defense (2002-2004 Mavs). Sure, Cuban put a lot of investment into the Mavs (though, let's not overrate it), but Dirk also showcased he was a legit superstar.

While I wouldn't call the Mavericks talent mind blowing, again, since 2000 the Mavs have had one of the most talented teams every year and one of the deepest teams every year. I feel there are a couple other PF's in the NBA that could have won alot with that type of talent around them. Pau Gasol for example would have won alot more in his career had he been surrounded by the kind of talent Dallas has put together over the years. *Calm down everyone, I'm not saying Gasol was better than Dirk, I think Dirk is better* (though probably not by nearly as much as other people do).


Which years are you talking about ?

And check the numbers above, most of the time, they were losing to the favourites and Dirk, for the most part, played great in the elimination games. Infact, they've overachieved more.

I do not believe the Mavericks have overachieved very many times, again, always one of the Top 5 teams talent and depth wise pretty much every year. That's not overachieving to me.


Again, which years ?

I'll have to get back to you on that when I have time to look it up and compare the other best teams from those years, I don't remember exactly what years off the top of my head but I do remember thinking they had the most talented team top to bottom in the NBA a couple times, at the very least they have had the deepest team in the NBA a few times.

Continued....

[RIP CITY]

And, what about the Top 20 ?

That point was not about other players in the Top 20. It was me stating that if he truly is Top 20 like people claim then those rosters are even better than I thought they were because I've never considered him a Top 20 All-Time player and I still do not consider him to be a Top 20 player. Him being a Top 30 player makes those teams less talented than if he is a Top 20 player. That was my point.


Players that I have in my arbitrary Top 20, include Moses Malone and Julius Erving, who were both on the stacked 83 Sixers (no Dirk team compares to that team)... infact, Erving had many talented rosters, arguably the most talented around he late 70s, early 80s...

Again, wasn't comparing him to other Top 20 players in that way. Those players are simply better players than Dirk ever was in my opinion, so who they had around them becomes moot. I go by best overall player first and foremost.


Kevin Garnett ? 2008 Celtics and has been on very talented Celtics rosters since that team as well.

Yet another player that I feel is definitely a better overall player than Dirk. But this one I'll go into alittle bit since they are in the same era.

Dirk played on, at minimum, 5 teams that had better supporting casts than Garnett's best Minnesota team in 2004 (during the time frame KG was on MIN, not during the Boston years obviously). Just think about how long Dirk got to play with Nash and Finley compared to how many years KG got to play with the similar duo of Sprewell and Cassell. Every other year the best player on the team outside of KG was Wally Szczerbiak. Dirk also had one season where he played with Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker in their primes along with Nash/Finley still on the team. The minute KG had a great roster around him he won a Championship and has had tons of Playoff success since being on that team. He was the best player on the Celtics during that Championship season as well (arguably his entire time with Boston if you consider how important his defense is to that teams success). If Garnett had played his Minnesota years with the type of talent that Dirk had in Dallas during the same period, he would be even further up the list of All-Time greats because he would have undoubtedly had more Playoff appearances and Playoff success than he did in Minny, and debatably another Championship or two (considering those Dallas teams weakness was defense and he was capable of transforming an entire defense by himself).


Charles Barkley ? 93-95 Suns were also very talented, arguably most talented during that span.

LeBron James ? 2011 team was arguably the most talented, some argue were... There have been others (yourself as well) who have the likes of Isiah Thomas, Scottie Pippen, John Havlieck, Elgin Baylor, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, etc... all those guys played with far superior help than Dirk.

Again, all players that are better players overall in my opinion and my point about the Top 20 wasn't about supporting cast, just that if Dirk really is a Top 20 player then those Mavs are better than even I thought they were.


But why does Dirk have to be penalized for having talented rosters ? Besides, I don't even know which years are in discussion for him having the most loaded rosters.

Not necessarily penalizing him for having talented rosters as much as I am pointing out that his success has a great deal to do with the talent around him and that I feel it's just as important to the Mavericks success as he was, where as other Superstars have been more important to their teams success . As I said, I feel he is the superstar of role players, he doesn't do much else well besides score so he fits into the roster more so than he carries the roster. Don't take my calling him the best role player ever toooo literally, I think he's an All-Star level player but he's never had the overall impact of a true Superstar in my opinion. His role is to score and he does it on an All-Time great level but his total impact on the game is lacking in every other area which makes him less impactful overall and is too easily dismissed because his teams have won (while being Top 5 teams talent wise most years).


Which coach ?

If it's Nelson or Johnson, I could care less. Neither of them have won rings as coaches to tell me otherwise about leadership.

It was Avery Johnson. Now, admittedly he's not the greatest Coach but let's not forget he was also an NBA player who was widely known as being a leader on/off the court. Particularly being one of the leaders on the 1999 Spurs Championship team, so I would take his opinion pretty seriously especially considering he said it openly in public (he was trying to motivate Dirk into becoming a better leader), that's pretty damning no matter what you think of Avery has a Coach IMO.


The numbers back it up for the majority of (you can't be "clutch" or play very well all the time) his games and being "un-clutch" depends also on not just Dirk but the rest of his teammates.

Being clutch is two things, yes, stepping up in big games is part of it but the last 5 minutes of close games is also part of it. Dirk was decidedly un-clutch for most of his career in terms of taking over in close games, something most of the players I list ahead of him did very well. Jason Terry might not have always been the best Playoff performer overall but he was the Mavs closer in the Playoffs tons of times, he was usually the one to take the big shots, whether he missed or not and he did make quite a few. He honestly has been just as good as Dirk in the last 5 minutes of close games in the Playoffs overall during his time with the Mavs.


They didn't do a "great" job in the past the, which is what I mentioned before... they had a sometimes very unbalanced teams before.

Here is my answer to the unbalanced teams point, could it be that those teams were so unbalanced because Dirk was the worst or 2nd worst defensive starter on the team every year? Nash was worse during those years but every other year he was the worst defensive starter on the team (there might be a year or two I'm missing where there was someone worse but I doubt it) and one of the worst defensive players on the team. That teams lack of defense should fall on his shoulders as much as anyone. Which is why I rank players that have put up comparable scoring numbers (at least 20 PPG) higher on my All-Time list, because they were all much, much better defensive players.


And here's where I feel people overrate that 2011 Mavericks team.

They weren't "extremely" deep:

http://gyazo.com/443023694ede60a92fee1d0742a4b831.png

What screams out "extremely deep" ? Not as an all-around offensive and defensive team.

Infact, I've stated that this team was carried for the most part by Dirk and only a few other players have done with less.

This is one I can tell we are going to end up agreeing to disagree on. That team was definitely deep and very underrated. He did not carry that team, he has never carried a team. You can not carry a team when you are basically a liability on one end of the floor and only good at one thing. That's not carrying a team, I'm sorry. Players that carry teams are the best player on the team on both ends of the floor. He carried alot of the offensive load (not all of it but admittedly alot of it) but they carried him defensively. The Mavericks supporting players have always had to carry him on the defensive end of the floor because he's always one of the worst defensive players on the team.

Dirk, Chandler, Marion, Kidd, Terry, Haywood, Barea, Stevenson, Stojakovic that's a 9 player rotation. Most teams don't use that many players consistently in the Playoffs, they also had Cardinal and Brewer play spot minutes and play well in those minutes, Brewer defensively and Cardinal as a hustle player (Cardinal actually had a pretty big impact in one Finals game during a 5 or 10 minute stretch where he took some charges, forced some turnovers, grabbed a couple rebounds.) Not saying Brewer or Cardinal were big parts of the team but they played their little role well when they were called upon.

Now, Dirk carried alot of the offensive load but they still had 7 players averaged at least 7 PPG in the Playoffs, 6 of them above 8 PPG. The only thing that team was missing from being pretty stacked was a legit #2 scorer (Caron Butler was supposed to play that role but he got hurt and has never been the same since). But they had a Defensive Player of the Year type anchor in Chandler, two of the best perimeter defenders in the League in Marion and Stevenson, a very good pass first PG who hit timely shots and played solid defense, a clutch shooting 17.5 PPG (in the Playoffs) SG in Jason Terry, a legitimate albeit not great starting Center as their backup Center in Haywood, a bigtime sparkplug backup PG in Barea and a momentarily rejuvenated Peja drilling some clutch 3's off the bench. Obviously not the greatest supporting cast ever, I'm not claiming it was by any means but they all played their roles just like Dirk played his role as the teams scorer. Maybe the word “extremely” was a bit of an exaggeration but that was a pretty good team and that supporting cast stepped up big time in the Playoffs to compliment him.

Continued, lol...

[RIP CITY]

Honestly don't see Dirk as that fortunate for his career

Look at it like this. Think about all the teams guys like Kevin Garnett (MIN), Allen Iverson (PHI), Paul Pierce (Pre-KG), Tracy McGrady (ORL), Vince Carter (TOR) and Ray Allen (SEA) had to suffer with compared to Dirk's years with Dallas' rosters. Those are all players comparable to Dirk (all better players in their prime in my opinion besides Allen who I would consider an equal more or less), I would say he was pretty fortunate to be placed where he was. The Mavericks have had good Coaching most of those years (Don Nelson, Rick Carlisle. Avery’s first season he helped improve their defense so I’ll say he was a good Coach that one year and mediocre every other year), have had one of the best General Managers (Donnie Nelson) and one of the best owners (Cuban obviously). Imagine how some of those players career's would be viewed if they played on Top 5 rosters for 10+ years of their career like Dirk has. Duncan has played with similar talent levels around him as Dirk (Nash/Finley very comparable to Manu/Parker) and done twice as much, not that anyone would be stupid enough to say Dirk was better than Duncan.

I'm not saying that Dirk has played with the type of talent someone like Shaq has played with (Penny/Kobe/Wade/LeBron/Nash/Amare) but he's been pretty damn fortunate to be on one of the Top 5 franchises of his era if you ask me.


there are things that people overrate about Dirk but definitely nothing to do with his on-court play.

If he's considered one of the Top 20 Players of All-Time then I would say his on-court play is definitely overrated. His total impact on games does not make him one of the 20 Greatest Players of All-Time.

[RIP CITY]

Really like this list a lot. I like the fact that you put Robinson in there, he was an absolute monster offensively and defensively.

I with you one hundred percent on the Barkely vs Malone debate. Battle of peak/prime vs longevity in my opinion. Which do you value more? Personally I value peak/prime slightly more and therefore tend to side with Barkley, though I can see an argument either way.

I don't think I rate Isiah quite as highly as you do, but I'd put him in the 20-25 range for sure.

My list would probably be

20. John Havlicek
19. Charles Barkley
18. David Robinson
17. Bob Pettit
16. Elgin Baylor
15. Julius Erving
14. Jerry West
13. Moses Malone
12. Oscar Robertson
11. Lebron James

I might change it up a bit when I get a chance to sit down and really think about it, but that's my first attempt for the time being.

Since you are one of the posters I respect the most on this site (the most so far since I've been back actually, about 3 weeks) I'm glad to hear you agree. I go by peak/prime over longevity as well, though obviously if the player has a pretty big longevity advantage that plays a factor. Can't really argue too much with your list either, lol.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

11. Moses Malone
12. Lebron James
13. Big O
14. Jerry West
15. Dr J
16. David Robinson
17. Isiah Thomas
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Charles Barkley
20. Elgin Baylor