Wilt Chamberlain VS Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

[jongib369]

BATTLE OF THE GIANTS


http://hoopedia.nba.com/images/c/c4/Kareem52301.jpg


Kareem and Wilt, arguably the top 2 centers of all time. Also arguably the G.O.A.T.'s once EVERYTHING is taken into account.



Just to put things into perspective of how good Wilt was, here is the "link" that Jlauber, many sports analysts, fans and myself have thought of


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLdzHB_NeNQ




-Kareem (age 38) 20.6 pts, 5.4 rebs, 2.8 as, 1.5 blocks, .581 fg%
-Patric Ewing (age 23) 18.8 pts, 9.3 rebs, 1.8 as, 2 blocks, .446 fg%

Kareem high vs ewing was 40 points - 8 total games
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Kareem (Age 38) 20.2 Pts, 6.3 rebs, 1.9 as, 1.4 blocks, .599 fg%
Hakeem (Age 22) 22.8 Pts, 11.7 rebs, 2.6 as, 2.7 blocks, .495 fg%

kareem high vs hakeem 46 points - 18 total games

For shits and gigs, look up how ewing and hakeem did vs shaq here

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


After the laker's fired the coach year prior, Wilt was asked to be the focal point of the offense. going up against kareem once that season...He averaged


http://oi49.tinypic.com/2howgwk.jpg






After his return from injury, he took the 3rd option Role again.

Frank Deford,editor of Sports illustrated,who in the Jan,27,1969 issue of SI said, among other things that Chamberlain won't or can't go to the basket anymore.You can read the entire article at SI's website.Then as now SI comes out about a week before the issue date.Wilt scored 60 points on jan.26,1969 and his 66 points on feb.9,1969.



Kareem's FG% 46.47



1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain (Age 33) 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar (Age 22) 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season

[jongib369]

accidentally posted the video without music

:hammerhead:

Ill put the right link up as soon as I can

[dunksby]

accidentally posted the video without music

:hammerhead:

Ill put the right link up as soon as I can
Give credit for the post you just copy pasted :biggums:
And the block numbers like the video you posted are cherry picked they don't tell the whole story and should not be considered anyway since blocks weren't tracked.

As I promised before two weeks I published the data collected by me:

Regular season – 1969-70

1. Date: Fri 10/24/69
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 9-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 23 pts, 20 rebs, 2 as, 2 blocks, 9-21 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1970-71

2. Date: Fri 11/20/70
- Chamberlain 28 pts, 23 rebs, 3 as, 10 blocks, 7-20 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 13 rebs, 0 as, 2 blocks, 13-32 FG/FGA W

3. Date: Mon 12/21/70
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 2 blocks, 11-23 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 0 as, 4 blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA W

4. Date: Fri 02/05/71
- Chamberlain 14 pts, 14 rebs, 3 as, 6 blocks, 7-10 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 27 pts, 10 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA L

5. Date: Thu 02/11/71
- Chamberlain 25 pts, 11 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 21 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 13-30 FG/FGA – 2 blocks against Wilt W

6. Date: Wed 03/03/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 13 rebs, 5 as, 8 blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 15 pts, 6 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-21 FG/FGA W

Post season – 1970-71 – WCF playoffs

7. Date: Fri 04/09/71
- Chamberlain 22 pts, 20 rebs, 1 as, 8 blocks, 10-19 FG/FGA – 3 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 32 pts, 22 rebs, 1 as, 1 blocks, 14-30 FG/FGA W

8. Date: Sun 04/11/71
- Chamberlain 26 pts, 22 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA - Wilt blocked numerious shots L
-Abdul-Jabbar 22 pts, 10 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W

9. Date: Wed 04/14/71
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 24 rebs, 3 as, 3 blocks, 9-19 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 19 rebs, 6 as, 0 blocks, 8-16 FG/FGA L

10.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 16 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 7-14 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 14-20 FG/FGA W

11.Date: Fri 04/16/71
- Chamberlain 23 pts, 12 rebs, 4 as, 6 blocks, 10-21 FG/FGA – 5 blocks against Jabbar L
-Abdul-Jabbar 20 pts, 15 rebs, 5 as, 3 blocks, 7-23 FG/FGA W

Regular season – 1971-72

12.Date: Sat 11/21/71
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 4-9 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 17-33 FG/FGA L

13.Date: Sun 01/09/72
- Chamberlain 15 pts, 12 rebs, 2 as, 6 blocks, 7-11 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 39 pts, 20 rebs, 5 as, 9 blocks, 18-34 FG/FGA W

14.Date: Fri 02/04/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 8-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 18 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 16-33 FG/FGA L

15.Date: Wed 03/01/72
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 17 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 12 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L

16.Date: Fri 03/17/72
- Chamberlain 18 pts, 25 rebs, 5 as, * blocks, 7-15 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 50 pts, 8 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 22-39 FG/FGA L

Post season – 1971-72 – WCF playoffs

17.Date: Sun 04/09/72
- Chamberlain 10 pts, 24 rebs, 0 as, * blocks, 3-12 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-26 FG/FGA W

18.Date: Wed 04/12/72
- Chamberlain 11 pts, 17 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 40 pts, 7 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 18-31 FG/FGA L

19.Date: Fri 04/14/72
- Chamberlain 7 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, 10 blocks, 1-3 FG/FGA – 6 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 33 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 15-37 FG/FGA L

20.Date: Sun 04/16/72
- Chamberlain 5 pts, 11 rebs, 4 as, 3 blocks, 2-7 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 31 pts, 18 rebs, 3 as, 7 blocks, 14-33 FG/FGA W

21.Date: Tue 04/18/72
- Chamberlain 12 pts, 26 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 2-3 FG/FGA - 4 blocks against Jabbar W
-Abdul-Jabbar 28 pts, 16 rebs, 3 as, * blocks, 13-33 FG/FGA L

22.Date: Sat 04/22/72
- Chamberlain 20 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, 9 blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 25 rebs, 8 as, * blocks, 16-37 FG/FGA L

Regular season – 1972-73

23.Date: Tue 11/14/72
- Chamberlain 16 pts, 15 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 8-12 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 16 rebs, 6 as, 7 blocks, 17-32 FG/FGA L

24.Date: Tue 12/05/72
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 15 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 4-4 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 17 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 11-30 FG/FGA L

25.Date: Sun 01/07/73
- Chamberlain 9 pts, 18 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 3-5 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 37 pts, 12 rebs, 7 as, * blocks, 17-36 FG/FGA W

26.Date: Fri 02/09/73
- Chamberlain 8 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 3-3 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 29 pts, 24 rebs, 2 as, * blocks, 14-24 FG/FGA W

27.Date: Sun 02/25/73
- Chamberlain 24 pts, 20 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 10-14 FG/FGA W
-Abdul-Jabbar 21 pts, 21 rebs, 6 as, * blocks, 10-27 FG/FGA L

28.Date: Tue 03/27/73
- Chamberlain 0 pts, 14 rebs, 4 as, * blocks, 0-0 FG/FGA L
-Abdul-Jabbar 24 pts, 17 rebs, 1 as, * blocks, 12-31 FG/FGA W

W = team wоn
L = team lost

* Blocked stats are collected from archive newspapers articles (as most of the data), NBA doesn't kept track of blocked shots before 1973/74 season. I have some blocked shots numbers ( for example if Wilt blocked 20 shots - 11 of Jabbar in two consecutive games in 1972 WCF - and if that were the game 5 and 6 - it will be like Wilt had 11 blocks (4 against Jabbar) in game 5 and 9 blocks (7 against Jabbar) in game 6. But since if I am not able to cross checked it I did not put that data. Also I find in the forum info about Wilt blocked 8 shots in game 1 of 1971/72 regular season, but I was not able to find evidence in google news archive search,so again I do not post it.

[jongib369]

Give credit for the post you just copy pasted :biggums:
And the block numbers like the video you posted are cherry picked they don't tell the whole story and should not be considered anyway since blocks weren't tracked.
If thats where those numbers originally came from I had no idea, I had that saved on my computer from a friend who sent them to me...i wasnt about to credit my friend for giving me stats last year lol

and how is the video cherry picked? It shows Kareem owning Wilt also....

[jongib369]

Also, they DO have some block totals...Harvey Pollack Ring a bell? Just as an example. just because the NBA didnt, doesnt mean other sources didnt record some

[dunksby]

If thats where those numbers originally came from I had no idea, I had that saved on my computer from a friend who sent them to me...i wasnt about to credit my friend for giving me stats last year lol

and how is the video cherry picked? It shows Kareem owning Wilt also....


Also, they DO have some block totals...Harvey Pollack Ring a bell? Just as an example. just because the NBA didnt, doesnt mean other sources didnt record some
I was talking about the blocks mostly, the video is valuable nonetheless I have watched it numerous times but it's 3 minutes of highlights of a battle that happened like 30 times so it is what it is just a small sample that's gonna be biased either way. And Harvey Pollack is a solid source but he is just one man.
ETA: Before jlauber comes in and ruins the thread I wanted to add that although I believe Kareem is the GOAT and a better player than Wilt, I think both of them would tear this league apart and dominate today's wanna be big men.

[jlauber]

I was talking about the blocks mostly, the video is valuable nonetheless I have watched it numerous times but it's 3 minutes of highlights of a battle that happened like 30 times so it is what it is just a small sample that's gonna be biased either way. And Harvey Pollack is a solid source but he is just one man.
ETA: Before jlauber comes in and ruins the thread I wanted to add that although I believe Kareem is the GOAT and a better player than Wilt, I think both of them would tear this league apart and dominate today's wanna be big men.

A PRIME Kareem was never as dominant against the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain was.

In fact, take their PRIMES...their first TEN seasons in the league...and compare them (and remember to include league averages)...there wasn't a facet of the game, including WINNING, that Kareem was better at than Chamberlain. Had Magic not arrived in 1980, Kareem's career would have been considered a disappointment. And, BTW, I have long argued that had Wilt been fortunate enough to have had MAGIC for ten seasons, and he likely would have won more rings than Kareem.

[Punpun]

Yeah. It's Kareem. Hands down. Didn't brittle away. More dominant over a logner period of time than Wilt ever was. No contest. One is the GOAT. The other isn't.

[dunksby]

A PRIME Kareem was never as dominant against the SAME centers that a PRIME Chamberlain was.

In fact, take their PRIMES...their first TEN seasons in the league...and compare them (and remember to include league averages)...there wasn't a facet of the game, including WINNING, that Kareem was better at than Chamberlain. Had Magic not arrived in 1980, Kareem's career would have been considered a disappointment. And, BTW, I have long argued that had Wilt been fortunate enough to have had MAGIC for ten seasons, and he likely would have won more rings than Kareem.
I was not dignify this with a response but since this is not your typical wall of text post I address your point: The lucky one was Magic to play with the GOAT, stop talking out of your ass it's not like Magic was already the GOAT PG since he first walked in to the Lakers locker. :facepalm

[jlauber]

Yeah. It's Kareem. Hands down. Didn't brittle away. More dominant over a logner period of time than Wilt ever was. No contest. One is the GOAT. The other isn't.

Yep, Chamberlain "brittled away." A 36 year old Chamberlain, in his LAST season, LED the NBA in rebounds. He was voted first-team all-defense (and ahead of players like Thurmond and Kareem.) Set a FG% record of .727 that likely will never be broken. Finished FOURTH in the MVP balloting. Took an injury-riddled team to a 60-22 record (BTW, Kareem took his 60-22 team down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against the Warriors. Chamberlain then dominated the Warriors in the next round, en route to a 4-1 blowout win)...and a trip to the Finals. And in that LAST post-season, covering 17 games (and he averaged 47.1 mpg BTW), all Chamberlain did was average 22.5 rpg...which was the LAST time a player would ever average more than 17.3 rpg in the post-season. BTW, Kareem never came within the Grand Canyon of apporaching ANY of Chamberlain's rebounding marks. Hell, Wilt easily outrebounded him in their 28 H2H's, and that was an OLD Chamberlain.

BTW, in his LAST TEN STRAIGHT GAMES against Kareem, Chamberlain held a PRIME Kareem to .434 shooting (which included .414 in the last four pivotal games of the '72 WCF's.)

One can only wonder what a PRIME Chamberlain would have brought to the table against Kareem.

[LeBird]

I agree with jlauber. I think stats have to be looked at carefully/with caution but the ones I've seen suggest that Wilt would have had his way with Kareem if he was fit. As it was he was already his equal.

[jlauber]

I was not dignify this with a response but since this is not your typical wall of text post I address your point: The lucky one was Magic to play with the GOAT, stop talking out of your ass it's not like Magic was already the GOAT PG since he first walked in to the Lakers locker. :facepalm

Hmmm where were KAREEM's Lakers BEFORE Magic arrived. Even with LOADED rosters (players like Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, Charlie Scott, and Adrian Dantley), they were not much more than a .500 team that was early round cannon-fodder in the post-season. In Kareem's four seasons in LA they under-achieved dramatically.

Magic IMMEDIATELY took them to a 60-22 record, and hell, he even dominated the clinching game in the '80 Finals...withOUT Kareem. What happened when Kareem retired? The Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record, to a 63-19 mark...which was their second best mark in the Magic-era. Even in his last season, and with a declining and injured team, Magic led the Lakers to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals.

Ok, what happened when MAGIC retired? The Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to a 43-39 record, and then followed that up with a 39-43 mark.

BTW, in their TEN seasons together, Magic finished ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting in the LAST EIGHT.

Now, YOU tell me who had more IMPACT?

[Punpun]

Yep, Chamberlain "brittled away."

That's what I said. Thank you for agreeing.

[jlauber]

I wl save myself some time...


Then, here was the relative unknown center from the 60's and 70's, Nate Thurmond, squaring off against a PRIME, high volume shooting Kareem, and in 43 career H2H's, Kareem's HIGH game was only 34 points. And, while an old Kareem, from ages 38-41 shot a CAREER .607 against a 23-26 year old Hakeem, he seldom even shot 50% against Thurmond, and in fact, was probably around 43% in those 43 games.

Which then brings us to Chamberlain. We already KNOW that an OLD Chamberlain, and WAY past his peak, and on a surgically repaired knee, held a PRIME Kareem to a career .464 FG% in their 28 CAREER H2H's, which included .434 in their LAST TEN STRAIGHT games (unlike Kareem's .633 against Hakeem in their FIRST TEN STRAIGHT games.)

What we don't have is a PRIME Wilt against Kareem (although, in their one meeting before Chamberlain blew out his knee, he just crushed Kareem in every facet of the game.) However, we do KNOW that a PRIME Kareem faced many of the SAME of the centers that a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain had faced...and he never came within the other side of the ocean of approaching the numbers that a PRIME Chamberlain hung on those centers.

Where was Kareem's 60 point game against Dierking? How about Kareem's 66 point game against Fox? Where were Kareem's THREE games of 50+ against Reed (and BTW, a PRIME Chamberlain outscored Reed by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28 in the same season)? Where were Kareem's FOUR games of 60+ against Bellamy, with a HIGH of 73? Hell, where was Kareem's 100 point game against Imhoff?

And that brings us back to Thurmond. A PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain faced Thurmond in 11 straight games from their last H2H in '65, thru their nine H2H's in '66, and into their first game in '67...and in that stretch, Chamberlain AVERAGED 30 ppg, which included games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and 45 (and Wilt was just burying Nate in those games, as well, outscoring him by 30-10, 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and even 45-13.) And while Kareem never approached the 50% mark against Thurmond in their three straight playoff H2H's (.486, .428, and even .405), Chamberlain was outshooting Thurmond by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and get this, .560 to .343 (and keep in mind, that Thurmond was second in the MVP voting that season behind Wilt.) That was a PRIME Thurmond that Chamberlain was just crushing.

[dunksby]

Hmmm where were KAREEM's Lakers BEFORE Magic arrived. Even with LOADED rosters (players like Wilkes, Nixon, Hudson, Charlie Scott, and Adrian Dantley), they were not much more than a .500 team that was early round cannon-fodder in the post-season. In Kareem's four seasons in LA they under-achieved dramatically.

Magic IMMEDIATELY took them to a 60-22 record, and hell, he even dominated the clinching game in the '80 Finals...withOUT Kareem. What happened when Kareem retired? The Lakers IMPROVED from a 57-25 record, to a 63-19 mark...which was their second best mark in the Magic-era. Even in his last season, and with a declining and injured team, Magic led the Lakers to a 58-24 record, and yet another trip to the Finals.

Ok, what happened when MAGIC retired? The Lakers IMMEDIATELY plummetted to a 43-39 record, and then followed that up with a 39-43 mark.

BTW, in their TEN seasons together, Magic finished ahead of Kareem in the MVP balloting in the LAST EIGHT.

Now, YOU tell me who had more IMPACT?
Are you thick? Magic is the GOAT PG but he was not gonna win dick without Kareem. Speaking of 80 playoffs and finals was Kareem's (80 Finals 33.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 4.6 bpg, 3.2 apg on 54.9% FG) they rested him because of his injury to save him for a game 7 but Magic did his magic and won the game for the Lakers but it does not mean he was the man that year, stop revising history to suit your agenda. **** the regular season records how many rings did Magic won without Kareem if Kareem was hindering the Lakers like you imply? How come the improved Lakers did not jack without Kareem?
No don't bother replying, I know every one of your homer pseudo arguments by heart.

[Punpun]

One of the funniest thing about Jlauber is that he actually that H2H, that prolly weren't even H2H as they prolly didn't play against each other during those match for long periods of time, means nothing. It holds no value at all when comparing two players. None.

It's a lapse of logic to say otherwise.

[coin24]

What's with all the wilt topics lately?:confusedshrug:
You're wearing out poor jlaubers keypad:lol

[madmax]

What's with all the wilt topics lately?:confusedshrug:
You're wearing out poor jlaubers keypad:lol

:D :roll:
as for Wilt vs Lew Alcindor argument - one is a GOAT, another one is GOAT statpadder...nuff said:pimp:

[jongib369]

If you can, do you have the time to post some rule differences from the 60s in my new post??

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273468

[jlauber]

:D :roll:
as for Wilt vs Lew Alcindor argument - one is a GOAT, another one is GOAT statpadder...nuff said:pimp:

I agree 100%. Chamberlain CARRIED mediocre rosters to within an eyelash of beating the great Russell teams. In his 50 ppg season, Wilt took the same basic last place roster that he had inherited in '60, thru the first round of the playoffs (including a 56-35 game five in a best-of-five series) and then to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics. Oh, and his teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

Then, a couple of years later, Chamberlain ttok a 40-40 Sixers team to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 HOF-laden Celtics. And in that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555.


Now, compare that with Kareem's "stats-padding" season of 71-72. Abdul Jabbar played a career high 44.2 mpg that season, on a team that ent 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. In the process, he averaged a career high 34.8 ppg, shot .574, and grabbed 16.6 rpg.

How about the 71-72 playoffs? In the first round, Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem, (holding him to 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting), but Kareem's teammates stepped up and knocked off the Warriors. Then in the WCF's, Kareem shot .457 against Wilt...which was bad enough, but in the last FOUR pivotal games of that series (THREE of them Laker wins), Kareem shot a woeful .414. And in the clinching game six loss on his home floor, he was badly outplayed by a 35 year old Wilt down the stretch.

BUT, it gets even better. How about Kareem's 75-76 season. He was traded to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before (BTW, Kareem's Bucks would go 38-44 in his last season there, and 38-44 the next season without him.) Now, how did Kareem respond when his team actually needed him to score? He could only play 41.2 mpg, and he averaged 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting. What the hell happened? Why wasn't Kareem scoring 40-50 ppg like Chamberlain? And the result? A 40-42 record and a missed post-season.

THAT, my friend, was the true definition of "stats-padding."

[jlauber]

BTW,

BOTH Kareem and Chamberlain have legitimate claims to the G.O.A.T. throne. Kareem has more rings, and he was certainly the main piece in at least two of them. BUT, Chamberlain was simply the more dominant player...even against many of the SAME centers that a PRIME Kareem would face.

Those that rip Chamberlain for "only" winning two rings, need to realize that Wilt was an eye-lash away from as many as FOUR more rings. And had he had decent supporting casts in at least two more, that would have been SIX. We are not taking about simply losing game seven's. Kareem had his share of those, too. But, in Wilt's case, they were lost in the waning seconds, and by bone-headed plays, shots, or miracle shots by opposing players. Kareem's 84 Lakers (who GAVE that series away) were pulled away from down the stretch, and his '74 favored Bucks team was blown out on their home floor in a game in which Cowens outplayed Kareem...especially in the 4th period.

So, it was not as if Wilt were being dominated and his team's shelled in the post-season. He was generally just crushing his opposing centers in those 29 post-season series, and an assortment of poor rosters, horrible play by his teammates, incompetent coaching, injuries, bad luck, and some cases, combinations of all of those prevented him from winning many more rings.

Meanwhile. Kareem was given a gift from the basketball gods when Magic arrived. Kareem's career up to that point paled was even more disappointing than Chamberlain's first ten seasons. And while Kareem was a major contributor on at least three of those five title teams by the Showtime Lakers, he won two rings at the tailend of his career that LA likely would have won without him. And while Chamberlain got ONE great post-season from West (and another great one in '70...except for an awful game seven), Kareem repeatedly got great post-seasons from Magic and Worthy. And "Big Game" James is seldom mentioned in those discussions, either. In the vast majority of Wilt's career, his teammates blew chunks in the post-season. Meanwhile, Magic and Worthy were coming up HUGE for Kareem.

Another fascinating point...CLUTCH performances in BIG games. Many here have been blindly led to believe that Chamberlain was a "choker" and Kareem some kind of "miracle man" in the post-season. True, Kareem had MANY great games. But he never had as BIG as games, in his BIGGEST ones, as Chamberlain did in his. Nor did Wilt have nearly as many meltodowns in his post-season series, either. You would be hard-pressed to find single games in which Chamberlain was outplayed in his post-season career, but you can find several BIG game "choke jobs" by Kareem, as well as several poor series and post-seasons, and even several in which he was either outplayed, or badly outplayed.

IMHO, BOTH deserve consideration for G.O.A.T. status.

[Pointguard]

One of the funniest thing about Jlauber is that he actually that H2H, that prolly weren't even H2H as they prolly didn't play against each other during those match for long periods of time, means nothing. It holds no value at all when comparing two players. None.

It's a lapse of logic to say otherwise.
Naaaah, they usually played each other straight up. And Kareem did have real problems with the centers that couldn't contain Wilt and guys that could flat out, out hustle Kareem (Cowens, Malone) and big strong guys (Thurmond, Gilmore). Wilt was those guys on steroids, with a skill package, and way more athletism.

[Odinn]

Naaaah, they usually played each other straight up. And Kareem did have real problems with the centers that couldn't contain Wilt and guys that could flat out, out hustle Kareem (Cowens, Malone) and big strong guys (Thurmond, Gilmore). Wilt was those guys on steroids, with a skill package, and way more athletism.
It would be great to see a Chamberlain-Moses matchup.

[Pointguard]

Are you thick? Magic is the GOAT PG but he was not gonna win dick without Kareem. Speaking of 80 playoffs and finals was Kareem's (80 Finals 33.4 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 4.6 bpg, 3.2 apg on 54.9% FG) they rested him because of his injury to save him for a game 7 but Magic did his magic and won the game for the Lakers but it does not mean he was the man that year, stop revising history to suit your agenda. **** the regular season records how many rings did Magic won without Kareem if Kareem was hindering the Lakers like you imply? How come the improved Lakers did not jack without Kareem?
No don't bother replying, I know every one of your homer pseudo arguments by heart.
Magic was always a winner and he definitely won without Kareem being a real contributer. Kareem had five or four years with the Lakers when he had way more energy and gusto and he did nothing with them in an era where Elvin Hayes and Rick Barry were doing a better job carrying their teams. Kareem is the only guy in the top ten that played in a franchiseless era for five years and had guys like Rick Barry carry inferior teams to a chip when he couldn't. (Barry carried a team where rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best player to the championship. Three years later Wilkes was on a Laker team as the seventh best player and with no real contenders competing, the Kareem led Lakers lost in the first round).

And then, all of a sudden in the richest era of franchises, Kareem was suddenly transformed into a winner??? Did Kareem change his spots??? Or was it that Magic, who never changed his spots totally turned the franchise around. Remind you Buse totally invested in Magic unlike any owner had done for a player before. Kareem had five years to prove himself and never did until Magic arrived.

[Pointguard]

It would be great to see a Chamberlain-Moses matchup.
Ha, True! The clashing underneath just would have been bizarre. The biggest clash of the Titans on the block ever. Chamberlain would have taken it personally and that might have been the edge needed. But I can't think of a better matchup.

[StateOfMind12]

Wilt was better in his peak but Kareem had a better and longer prime, more longevity, and accomplished much more.

Kareem is ranked higher than Chamberlain for careers and in my all-time list but Chamberlain is right behind him.

[Pointguard]

Wilt was better in his peak but Kareem had a better and longer prime, more longevity, and accomplished much more.

Kareem is ranked higher than Chamberlain for careers and in my all-time list but Chamberlain is right behind him.
Yeah, its the prime, peak and career argument. Or it can be player vs resume argument. I tend to like the peak/prime player argument because it's the players in the raw state and looks at their potential/actuality. Career and resume is subject to a lot of outside influences. To each his own... .If I had one contract for 7 years is the most realistic reality for me to compare players. Kareem, Malone and Stockton were freaks that had help in prolonging and injecting their careers.

In Wilt's 7 best years vs. Kareem 7 best - I have no doubt that Kareem would be dominated by Wilt in at least a couple of those years and would, at most, have one year where he was equal or very slightly better than Wilt. Everything else is a matter of the other players and their situations.

[Deuce Bigalow]

The winner, not the choker.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I agree 100%. Chamberlain CARRIED mediocre rosters to within an eyelash of beating the great Russell teams. In his 50 ppg season, Wilt took the same basic last place roster that he had inherited in '60, thru the first round of the playoffs (including a 56-35 game five in a best-of-five series) and then to a game seven, two point loss against the HOF-laden 60-20 Celtics. Oh, and his teammates collectively shot .354 in that post-season.

Then, a couple of years later, Chamberlain ttok a 40-40 Sixers team to a game seven, one point loss, against the 62-18 HOF-laden Celtics. And in that series, Chamberlain averaged 30.1 ppg, 31.4 rpg, and shot .555.


Now, compare that with Kareem's "stats-padding" season of 71-72. Abdul Jabbar played a career high 44.2 mpg that season, on a team that ent 63-19, and had a +11.1 ppg differential. In the process, he averaged a career high 34.8 ppg, shot .574, and grabbed 16.6 rpg.

How about the 71-72 playoffs? In the first round, Thurmond outscored and outshot Kareem, (holding him to 22.8 ppg on .405 shooting), but Kareem's teammates stepped up and knocked off the Warriors. Then in the WCF's, Kareem shot .457 against Wilt...which was bad enough, but in the last FOUR pivotal games of that series (THREE of them Laker wins), Kareem shot a woeful .414. And in the clinching game six loss on his home floor, he was badly outplayed by a 35 year old Wilt down the stretch.

BUT, it gets even better. How about Kareem's 75-76 season. He was traded to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before (BTW, Kareem's Bucks would go 38-44 in his last season there, and 38-44 the next season without him.) Now, how did Kareem respond when his team actually needed him to score? He could only play 41.2 mpg, and he averaged 27.7 ppg on .529 shooting. What the hell happened? Why wasn't Kareem scoring 40-50 ppg like Chamberlain? And the result? A 40-42 record and a missed post-season.

THAT, my friend, was the true definition of "stats-padding."
Then in Game 7s he doesn't even score half his regular season PPG average ('62 Div Finals, Game 7) and gets outscored by Sam Jones in every single one of them and/or misses 9+ FTS in a 1-2 point loss :oldlol:

[bizil]

If anything, Kareem was more skilled while Wilt was more dominant. But Kareem was very dominant while Wilt was a skilled Goliath minus the shooting touch Kareem had. GOAT wise, it could go either way. Peak value wise it could go either way. I realize Wilt's gaudy numbers will most likely give him the edge. However Kareem is the all time leading scorer, has six rings, six MVPs, and the greatest longevity of any big man ever. Kareem played against Wilt AND Hakeem-Ewing. Insane shit! But once again, Wilt had great longevity as well! The center debates are the most competitive and interesting in my book. In their own way, Kareem, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, and Hakeem are the best or greatest center of all time. And all around wise, many feel Walton is the best center ever. No other position can offer this kind of debate!

[Owl]

Naaaah, they usually played each other straight up. And Kareem did have real problems with the centers that couldn't contain Wilt and guys that could flat out, out hustle Kareem (Cowens, Malone) and big strong guys (Thurmond, Gilmore). Wilt was those guys on steroids, with a skill package, and way more athletism.
How much did those guys give Jabbar trouble. Because I've heard people suggest Jabbar "choked" or underperformed or was outhustled or whatever versus big name matchups (often regarding the playoffs) but I've also heard those (including Kareem himself) who suggest such notions are hyperbole that came about only because his teams (sometimes) lost, but that Jabbar inevitably won the matchup at the center position.

From what I've heard Moses outplayed him in the period where Moses was considered to be the better player and Thurmond gave his %s a hammering in couple of series. Did anyone else really give Jabbar substantial "problems" (and did they give him more problems than he presented to them? What instances are there of him being outplayed?) This is a genuine question though my leanings are pro-Jabbar.

FWIW, whilst Wilt clearly has his advantages over 4 the four "troublesome" centers, 3 have (substantially?) lower centers of gravity, and Malone and Cowens outside touches which Wilt lacked. So it's not like Wilt was a frankenstein built specificically to give Jabbar matchup nightmares.

As to the main question I'd question anyone who thinks it's easily one way or the other. I have leant Jabbar because of longevity (specifically the high standard throughout most of his long career), but I've shifted slightly towards Wilt after having seen Wilt favoured in 13 published GOAT lists to Jabbar in 5.

[dunksby]

How much did those guys give Jabbar trouble. Because I've heard people suggest Jabbar "choked" or underperformed or was outhustled or whatever versus big name matchups (often regarding the playoffs) but I've also heard those (including Kareem himself) who suggest such notions are hyperbole that came about only because his teams (sometimes) lost, but that Jabbar inevitably won the matchup at the center position.

From what I've heard Moses outplayed him in the period where Moses was considered to be the better player and Thurmond gave his %s a hammering in couple of series. Did anyone else really give Jabbar substantial "problems" (and did they give him more problems than he presented to them? What instances are there of him being outplayed?) This is a genuine question though my leanings are pro-Jabbar.

FWIW, whilst Wilt clearly has his advantages over 4 the four "troublesome" centers, 3 have (substantially?) lower centers of gravity, and Malone and Cowens outside touches which Wilt lacked. So it's not like Wilt was a frankenstein built specificically to give Jabbar matchup nightmares.

As to the main question I'd question anyone who thinks it's easily one way or the other. I have leant Jabbar because of longevity (specifically the high standard throughout most of his long career), but I've shifted slightly towards Wilt after having seen Wilt favoured in 13 published GOAT lists to Jabbar in 5.
Check out the H2H numbers of Kareem against Wilt and judge for yourself how much supposed trouble Wilt gave Kareem, of course Wilt did a good job on him but he did not lock him down or even slowed down Kareem's production by much. Kareem was a force and it pisses me off when people come in here with obvious agenda giving him backhanded complements implying Kareem was inferior to great centers of his era when he was in his prime. A rookie Kareem had a 23/20 debut going up against Wilt but somehow there is this myth that Wilt repeatedly abused Kareem and dominated him in their matchups.
At 33 Kareem was beasting and having one of his best performances in the finals while Wilt at 33 was busy getting his ass handed to him and choking the game away.

[1987_Lakers]

Kareem.

Wilt was the better defensive player & rebounder (peak Kareem was elite in both of those categories as well), but Kareem was the more skilled offensive player, better shooter, more moves in the post, and he was a clutch performer unlike Wilt. Kareem also has an edge in longevity & career accomplishments.

[jongib369]

Kareem.

Wilt was the better defensive player & rebounder (peak Kareem was elite in both of those categories as well), but Kareem was the more skilled offensive player, better shooter, more moves in the post, and he was a clutch performer unlike Wilt. Kareem also has an edge in longevity & career accomplishments.
Im not going to say much but I argue your postion on longevity and team accomplishments...in what area did kareem outlast chamberlain? None that I can see...The only real difference is points, which I pointed out the reason in my post. He had a different role, but was just as consistant in rebounding, steals assists and blocks...Way more so at the same age late in there careers than kareem. At age 36 kareem couldnt even get more than 10 rebounds per game... 7.3 to be exact... while wilt was averaging 18.6. Im not trying to be an ass I just honestly dont understand your point...and what does team accomplishments have to do with what an individual did??? If you were to replace Kareem when he got magic to chamberlain at the same age you dont think the outcomes would have been the same? Especially if wilt was told to score more often? at age 31 kareem scored 21.7 points, 4.9 assists and 11.7 rebounds shooting .577%...while wilt was getting 24.3 points, 8.6 assists, 23.8 rebounds while shooting .595. Also, Kareem himself said "I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt."

[jongib369]

Check out the H2H numbers of Kareem against Wilt and judge for yourself how much supposed trouble Wilt gave Kareem, of course Wilt did a good job on him but he did not lock him down or even slowed down Kareem's production by much. Kareem was a force and it pisses me off when people come in here with obvious agenda giving him backhanded complements implying Kareem was inferior to great centers of his era when he was in his prime. A rookie Kareem had a 23/20 debut going up against Wilt but somehow there is this myth that Wilt repeatedly abused Kareem and dominated him in their matchups.
At 33 Kareem was beasting and having one of his best performances in the finals while Wilt at 33 was busy getting his ass handed to him and choking the game away.
He held kareem to a FG% of 46.47...I hate saying this since kareem is my second favorite center (I said hakeem in a post a few days ago but somehow kareem slipped my mind lol) but he made kareem go from a efficient scorer to a volume scorer. not every time, (50 point game is beast) but the average says it all IMO. Like I said to the otherp oster im not trying to be a smartass/dick...Just bringing out points I love talking about this game

[Deuce Bigalow]

Im not going to say much but I argue your postion on longevity and team accomplishments...in what area did kareem outlast chamberlain? None that I can see...The only real difference is points, which I pointed out the reason in my post. He had a different role, but was just as consistant in rebounding, steals assists and blocks...Way more so at the same age late in there careers than kareem. At age 36 kareem couldnt even get more than 10 rebounds per game... 7.3 to be exact... while wilt was averaging 18.6. Im not trying to be an ass I just honestly dont understand your point...and what does team accomplishments have to do with what an individual did??? If you were to replace Kareem when he got magic to chamberlain at the same age you dont think the outcomes would have been the same? Especially if wilt was told to score more often? at age 31 kareem scored 21.7 points, 4.9 assists and 11.7 rebounds shooting .577%...while wilt was getting 24.3 points, 8.6 assists, 23.8 rebounds while shooting .595. Also, Kareem himself said "I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt."
Jesus Christ

People like this :rolleyes:

It was a different era. A DIFFERENT ERA. A DIFFERENT ERA
What do you, jluaber, and some others not understand?

[jongib369]

Kareem.

Wilt was the better defensive player & rebounder (peak Kareem was elite in both of those categories as well), but Kareem was the more skilled offensive player, better shooter, more moves in the post, and he was a clutch performer unlike Wilt. Kareem also has an edge in longevity & career accomplishments.
Also, Kareem did play more years....But wilt obviously even at age 51


http://marshallmatlock.com/wp-content/gallery/annie-leibovitz-at-work-again/willie%20shoemaker%20and%20wilt%20chamberlain,%20m alibu,%20ca,%201987.%20by%20annie%20leibovitz.png

Could still ball.

[Punpun]

YEAH NAH. Wilt roided like a mofo. Hence why he died from heart failure so young. Never stopped roiding.

[jongib369]

Jesus Christ

People like this :rolleyes:

It was a different era. A DIFFERENT ERA. A DIFFERENT ERA
What do you, jluaber, and some others not understand?
Why do other players who played in the early 70s remain consistent with their numbers into mid 80's also considering minutes and age?? And what's with you thinking that you know everything and just dismissing other people's points either insulting them or just being a dick? At least be respectful and discuss it... G.O.A.T's. are G.O.A.T's....are you saying that Kareem's, Jordan, magic etc numbers would be vastly different and lower now compared to when they originally played?? Honest question. And please, respond without insults...I mean obviously wilt wouldnt get the same amount of touches unless he was on a fast paced team and HAD to...And a bunch of other things but Im just going to end here because I know your not going to take anything I say seriously lol

[jongib369]

YEAH NAH. Wilt roided like a mofo. Hence why he died from heart failure so young. Never stopped roiding.
lol that doesn't look like someone who roided at all....Did you know he almost had to retire in 1965 (about) because of a heart problem??

[jlauber]

How much did those guys give Jabbar trouble. Because I've heard people suggest Jabbar "choked" or underperformed or was outhustled or whatever versus big name matchups (often regarding the playoffs) but I've also heard those (including Kareem himself) who suggest such notions are hyperbole that came about only because his teams (sometimes) lost, but that Jabbar inevitably won the matchup at the center position.

From what I've heard Moses outplayed him in the period where Moses was considered to be the better player and Thurmond gave his %s a hammering in couple of series. Did anyone else really give Jabbar substantial "problems" (and did they give him more problems than he presented to them? What instances are there of him being outplayed?) This is a genuine question though my leanings are pro-Jabbar.

FWIW, whilst Wilt clearly has his advantages over 4 the four "troublesome" centers, 3 have (substantially?) lower centers of gravity, and Malone and Cowens outside touches which Wilt lacked. So it's not like Wilt was a frankenstein built specificically to give Jabbar matchup nightmares.

As to the main question I'd question anyone who thinks it's easily one way or the other. I have leant Jabbar because of longevity (specifically the high standard throughout most of his long career), but I've shifted slightly towards Wilt after having seen Wilt favoured in 13 published GOAT lists to Jabbar in 5.

Thurmond actually OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT Kareem in the '72 playoffs (and held him to a .405 FG% as well.) And, overall, Thurmond probably held Kareem to a reasonable assumption of around .430 shooting in his career. However, Kareem probably outplayed him in the majority of their H2H's.

Those that witnessed the '71 and '72 WCF's, would claim that Chamberlain got the better of Kareem in '71, but at the very least he matched Kareem's ppg while outshooting and outrebounding him. The '72 WCF's were interesting. On the surface, Kareem's 33 ppg and slightly higher FG% .457 to .452 would seem to indicate that he outplayed Chamberlain. But just read up on the many articles at the time (PHILA, Pslieas, Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, and CavsFan have also posted the newpaper recaps here), and the overwhelming consensus was that Chamberlain outplayed Kareem. Time Magazine even went so far as to claim that Chamberlain DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that SERIES. Why? Because Kareem's shooting was just awful in the last four games (.414), and Chamberlain was knocking the "unblockable" skyhook all over the gym. And in the clinching game six, Chamberlain pounded Kareem down the stretch, and was even outrunning him.

And then in the 72-73 season, Wilt's LAST, Chamberlain held Kareem to .450 shooting in their six H2H games (while shooting .737 himself.) Chamberlain even outscored Kareem in one game that season, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Cowens seldom outplayed Kareem, but he gave him all he could handle, and in fact, DID outplay Kareem in every facet of the game in game seven of the '74 Finals, and in stunning upset on Milwaukee's home floor.

I haven't spent a great deal of time, but you can go thru the boxscore H2H's between Kareem-Gilmore, Kareem-Lanier, and Kareem-McAdoo. From what I have gathered, they were all relatively even. In fact, a prime McAdoo was scoring as much as 41 points against Kareem (or was at least the starting center opposite him.)

Kareem shelled Walton early in their careers. and even in game one of the '77 WCF's, but Walton held his own against him in the last three games of that series, and in a sweeping win over Kareem's 53-29 Lakers.

And I have posted the 40 H2H's between Moses and Kareem. It was pretty much a one-sided affair, too. Moses easily outscored him in the majority of their games (and then in their seven post-season games), and just manhandled Kareem on the glass. Moses was clearly the better H2H player from '79 thru '85. He even outscored Kareem, 30 ppg to 20 ppg in their H2H's in the '80 season (a year in which Kareem won his last MVP.)

As far as "choking" goes, Kareem had his share of poor games, poor series, poor post-seasons, and series in which he was just outplayed. He also shot under the league average in FG% in SEVERAL post-season series (and several entire post-seasons, as well.)

A poster made this comment earlier in this thread...


At 33 Kareem was beasting and having one of his best performances in the finals while Wilt at 33 was busy getting his ass handed to him and choking the game away.

At 33, Chamberlain had just come back WAY AHEAD of even the most optomistic medical opinion, from major knee surgery. He carried his Lakers back from a 3-1 first round deficit, with three straight dominating games (including a 30-27 11 block game seven), then all the way to the Finals....where the 60-22 Knicks beat his 46-36 Lakers. In a series in which Reed was injured in game five, with his team trailing by 10 points, and the series tied 2-2. All of which is interesting, because Kareem's 56-26 Bucks were blown away, 4-1 in the ECF's by Reed's Knicks. And while Kareem played exceptionally well in that series, he was outplayed by Reed in the clinching game five (Reed outscored Kareem, 32-27) and in a 132-96 pasting of Kareem's Bucks.

BTW, the "Chamberlain who was busy getting his ass handed him) put up a "must-win" game six performance that was probably better than any post-season game in Kareem's entire career, when he poured in 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, and with 27 rebounds. AND, in the clinching game seven, while Reed scored 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds, all the "choker" Chamberlain could do was to put up a 21 point, 10-16 shooting, 24 rebound game. Oh, and in that series, and again, only four months removed from major surgery, Chamberlain posted the ONLY 20-20 .625 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting.) BTW, "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West, who had played brilliantly in the first six games, had a meltdown in game seven (he was also playing hurt too), with a horrid game (and in a game that Frazier was stealing him blind...en route to a 36 point, 19 assist game.)

And incidently, at age 35, Chamberlain won the FMVP AFTER chopping down a prime KAREEM down in the WCF's, and then dominating the Knicks in the Finals (with a 19-23 .600 series...and a clinching series game performance of 24-29-10.

I could go on about Kareem's "choke" jobs, but it amazes me just how highly regarded as a "clutch" player he was, and how Wilt was viewed as a "stats-padding" choker...when in reality, Kareem had considerably more "poor" series,and even a couple in which he just plain blew chunks.

[oolalaa]

Thurmond actually OUTSCORED and OUTSHOT Kareem in the '72 playoffs (and held him to a .405 FG% as well.) And, overall, Thurmond probably held Kareem to a reasonable assumption of around .430 shooting in his career. However, Kareem probably outplayed him in the majority of their H2H's.

Those that witnessed the '71 and '72 WCF's, would claim that Chamberlain got the better of Kareem in '71, but at the very least he matched Kareem's ppg while outshooting and outrebounding him. The '72 WCF's were interesting. On the surface, Kareem's 33 ppg and slightly higher FG% .457 to .452 would seem to indicate that he outplayed Chamberlain. But just read up on the many articles at the time (PHILA, Pslieas, Julizaver, ThaRegul8r, and CavsFan have also posted the newpaper recaps here), and the overwhelming consensus was that Chamberlain outplayed Kareem. Time Magazine even went so far as to claim that Chamberlain DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that SERIES. Why? Because Kareem's shooting was just awful in the last four games (.414), and Chamberlain was knocking the "unblockable" skyhook all over the gym. And in the clinching game six, Chamberlain pounded Kareem down the stretch, and was even outrunning him.

And then in the 72-73 season, Wilt's LAST, Chamberlain held Kareem to .450 shooting in their six H2H games (while shooting .737 himself.) Chamberlain even outscored Kareem in one game that season, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

Cowens seldom outplayed Kareem, but he gave him all he could handle, and in fact, DID outplay Kareem in every facet of the game in game seven of the '74 Finals, and in stunning upset on Milwaukee's home floor.

I haven't spent a great deal of time, but you can go thru the boxscore H2H's between Kareem-Gilmore, Kareem-Lanier, and Kareem-McAdoo. From what I have gathered, they were all relatively even. In fact, a prime McAdoo was scoring as much as 41 points against Kareem (or was at least the starting center opposite him.)

Kareem shelled Walton early in their careers. and even in game one of the '77 WCF's, but Walton held his own against him in the last three games of that series, and in a sweeping win over Kareem's 53-29 Lakers.

And I have posted the 40 H2H's between Moses and Kareem. It was pretty much a one-sided affair, too. Moses easily outscored him in the majority of their games (and then in their seven post-season games), and just manhandled Kareem on the glass. Moses was clearly the better H2H player from '79 thru '85. He even outscored Kareem, 30 ppg to 20 ppg in their H2H's in the '80 season (a year in which Kareem won his last MVP.)

As far as "choking" goes, Kareem had his share of poor games, poor series, poor post-seasons, and series in which he was just outplayed. He also shot under the league average in FG% in SEVERAL post-season series (and several entire post-seasons, as well.)

A poster made this comment earlier in this thread...



At 33, Chamberlain had just come back WAY AHEAD of even the most optomistic medical opinion, from major knee surgery. He carried his Lakers back from a 3-1 first round deficit, with three straight dominating games (including a 30-27 11 block game seven), then all the way to the Finals....where the 60-22 Knicks beat his 46-36 Lakers. In a series in which Reed was injured in game five, with his team trailing by 10 points, and the series tied 2-2. All of which is interesting, because Kareem's 56-26 Bucks were blown away, 4-1 in the ECF's by Reed's Knicks. And while Kareem played exceptionally well in that series, he was outplayed by Reed in the clinching game five (Reed outscored Kareem, 32-27) and in a 132-96 pasting of Kareem's Bucks.

BTW, the "Chamberlain who was busy getting his ass handed him) put up a "must-win" game six performance that was probably better than any post-season game in Kareem's entire career, when he poured in 45 points, on 20-27 shooting, and with 27 rebounds. AND, in the clinching game seven, while Reed scored 4 points, on 2-5 shooting, with 3 rebounds, all the "choker" Chamberlain could do was to put up a 21 point, 10-16 shooting, 24 rebound game. Oh, and in that series, and again, only four months removed from major surgery, Chamberlain posted the ONLY 20-20 .625 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting.) BTW, "Mr. Clutch" Jerry West, who had played brilliantly in the first six games, had a meltdown in game seven (he was also playing hurt too), with a horrid game (and in a game that Frazier was stealing him blind...en route to a 36 point, 19 assist game.)

And incidently, at age 35, Chamberlain won the FMVP AFTER chopping down a prime KAREEM down in the WCF's, and then dominating the Knicks in the Finals (with a 19-23 .600 series...and a clinching series game performance of 24-29-10.

I could go on about Kareem's "choke" jobs, but it amazes me just how highly regarded as a "clutch" player he was, and how Wilt was viewed as a "stats-padding" choker...when in reality, Kareem had considerably more "poor" series,and even a couple in which he just plain blew chunks.

It's amazing how one little word can be so irritating.


To anyone who might have concluded otherwise by reading that post....

Jerry West was the lakers best player and clear undenibale leader of that 1970 Laker team, not Wilt. It was Jerry West's team, and that is NOT debatable.

[jlauber]

It's amazing how one little word can be so irritating.


To anyone who might have concluded otherwise by reading that post....

Jerry West was the lakers best player and clear undenibale leader of that 1970 Laker team, not Wilt. It was Jerry West's team, and that is NOT debatable.

Actually, NO, West was NOT the "undeniable" leader of the '70 Lakers. In FACT, before the season even started, their new coach, Joe Mullaney(who had replaced the incompetent Butch Van Breda Kolf) asked WILT to become the focal point of the Laker offense. Why? Because he knew that Chamberlain was the best offensive player in the game, and that his predecessor had just completely gone off the deep end when he had asked Wilt to sacrifice his offense. Clearly Mullaney could see the error in Van Breda Kolf's ways. And guess what, thru the first nine games of the season, Wilt was LEADING the league in SCORING at 32.2 ppg (West was at 30.8 BTW), and on .579 shooting. He shredded his knee, and virtually EVERYONER claimed that he was done for the year (and given the fact that he was 7-1 and nearly 300 lbs, perhaps his career was over.) Chamberlain did come back, albeit at nowhere near 100%, and STILL had a dominating post-season.

And I acknowledged that West played well in the first six games of that series, too (about 32 ppg), but, first it was WILT who rallied the Lakers back in game six, with a dominating 45-27 game, and then an injured West (both hands were injured) was just blown away by Frazier (and a Knick team that was hot that night, that a team of five MJ's might not have beaten them.)

In any case, at the OUTSET of the '70 season, it was going to be Chamberlain who was to lead. And he did, too, until he tore up his knee. BTW, Chamberlain had a 38 point game against the reigning MVP, and a 25 point game against Kareem (in which he outscored, outrebounded, outassisted, outblocked, and outshot Kareem from the floor) in those nine games (and overall, games of 33, 35, 37, 38, 42, and 43 points.)

And Chamberlain REALLY CARRIED his '72 team to the title in the post-season (despite the idiots who claim he was only their 4th leading scorer in that post-season.) While West was collectively shooting .376 in that post-season, and .325 in the Finals, Chamberlain outplayed a PRIME Kareem, and then dominated the Knicks, and their FIVE HOFers in the Finals.

[Legends66NBA7]

But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt."

I don't know if you took the exact quote by Kareem or not... but if that's what your stating, what's the "terms" in indicating greatness for you between MJ and Wilt ?

[Freedom Kid7]

Really, you could make a case for either. Both had their advantages.
Wilt was statistically better and I think his peak was better than Kareem's.
Kareem's longevity is unsurpassed and I doubt it ever will be. He had the more recognizable shot and more accomplishments. Both have their shortcomings. I will say that prime Wilt had tougher competition than prime Kareem, though Kareem had tougher competition probably throughout his career. I'd take Kareem, though that is me.

[1987_Lakers]

Im not going to say much but I argue your postion on longevity and team accomplishments...in what area did kareem outlast chamberlain? None that I can see...The only real difference is points, which I pointed out the reason in my post. He had a different role, but was just as consistant in rebounding, steals assists and blocks...Way more so at the same age late in there careers than kareem. At age 36 kareem couldnt even get more than 10 rebounds per game... 7.3 to be exact... while wilt was averaging 18.6. Im not trying to be an ass I just honestly dont understand your point...and what does team accomplishments have to do with what an individual did??? If you were to replace Kareem when he got magic to chamberlain at the same age you dont think the outcomes would have been the same? Especially if wilt was told to score more often? at age 31 kareem scored 21.7 points, 4.9 assists and 11.7 rebounds shooting .577%...while wilt was getting 24.3 points, 8.6 assists, 23.8 rebounds while shooting .595. Also, Kareem himself said "I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams.

Every team had the opportunity to amass a solid nucleus. Only the cream of the basketball world got to play then. So MJ has to be appraised in perspective. His incredible athletic ability, charisma and leadership on the court helped to make basketball popular around the world -- no question about that. But in terms of greatness, MJ has to take a backseat to The Stilt."

Your whole post is disregarded once you brought up Chamberlain's stats from 1962 and made it seem like it was untouchable or something. You do realize the center position wasn't as good back then than it was in the 70's & 80's, sure there was some very good centers in the late 60's - early 70's, but in 1962 the competition at the center spot was poor, other than Bellamy & Russell there was nobody. Wilt was guarded by midgets most of the time in the early 60's. And did you even factor the fast pace he played at in 1962? Put 1977 Kareem in 1962 and he puts up stats just as dominant as Wilt.

Not to mention you stated straight up lies in your post to support your point. Kareem at age 31 put up 24 ppg, 13 rpg, 5 apg, 4 bpg, NOT 22/12/5 like you mentioned.

Kareem was winning league MVPs at age 32, was a Finals MVP at age 38 and being named to All-NBA First teams at 38 as well. Wilt at 38 was already 2 years retired, that is why I gave Kareem the edge in longevity. The one with a limited perspective here is yourself.

[jongib369]

First of all It wasn't a lie, but a honest mistake. I posted Kareems per 36 minutes on accident. And if you want to get technical, you "lied" yourself rounding his numbers...23.8 points per game, 12.8 rebounds. if your going to do that then chamberlain averaged 24 rebounds and 9 assists when he was 31. Come on man dont be rude, i try to be as respectful as possible and nowhere did I say that YOU had a limited perspective so I dont get why your freaking out..That was a quote from kareem to Scottie pippen.


[B][I]How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. . . . Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever.
Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA

[fpliii]

[QUOTE=jongib369]First of all It wasn't a lie, but a honest mistake. I posted Kareems per 36 minutes on accident. And if you want to get technical, you "lied" yourself rounding his numbers...23.8 points per game, 12.8 rebounds. if your going to do that then chamberlain averaged 24 rebounds and 9 assists when he was 31. Come on man dont be rude, i try to be as respectful as possible and nowhere did I say that YOU had a limited perspective so I dont get why your freaking out..That was a quote from kareem to Scottie pippen.


[B][I]How Soon They Forget: An Open Letter to Scottie Pippen

Dear Scottie,

I have nothing but respect for you my friend as an athlete and knowledgeable basketball mind. But you are way off in your assessment of who is the greatest player of all time and the greatest scorer of all time. Your comments are off because of your limited perspective. You obviously never saw Wilt Chamberlain play who undoubtedly was the greatest scorer this game has ever known. When did MJ ever average 50.4 points per game plus 25.7 rebounds? (Wilt in the 1962 season when blocked shot statistics were not kept). We will never accurately know how many shots Wilt blocked. Oh, by the way in 1967 and 68, Wilt was a league leader in assists. Did MJ ever score 100 points in a game? How many times did MJ score more than 60 points in a game? MJ led the league in scoring in consecutive seasons for 10 years but he did this in an NBA that eventually expanded into 30 teams vs. when Wilt played and there were only 8 teams. . . . Bill played on a total of 11 championship teams and as you very well know, Scottie, the ring is the thing, and everything else is just statistics. So I would advise you to do a little homework before crowning Michael or LeBron with the title of best ever.
Affectionately,
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar,
NBA

[jongib369]

haha thank you!!! I thought it was that many games but I was thinking back and remembered scrolling down and seeing 149...I havent gone though each individual one I didn't realize it skipped a few lines

[fpliii]

haha thank you!!! I thought it was that many games but I was thinking back and remembered scrolling down and seeing 149...I havent gone though each individual one I didn't realize it skipped a few lines

np bro, I didn't realize either until I put that together (it's still incomplete, but a few of us have done so major work)

btw I think you're 5 posts (or 105) away from being able to create threads (not sure if it's 100 or 200) to answer your ? from the sticky

[jongib369]

np bro, I didn't realize either until I put that together (it's still incomplete, but a few of us have done so major work)

btw I think you're 5 posts (or 105) away from being able to create threads (not sure if it's 100 or 200) to answer your ? from the sticky
Actually this is my thread :) Ive been able to post threads for a few days now. Ive posted about 4 or 5 If I'm not mistaken...here is another thread that I posted, it has some highligh videos that I made on youtube. (Most of my footage is from CavsFTW)

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=273334

[jongib369]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AO2iGqgnDs


thats the video I meant to post originally in the thread...I uploaded it without the music

:hammerhead:

[fpliii]

Actually this is my thread :) Ive been able to post threads for a few days now. Ive posted about 4 or 5 If I'm not mistaken...here is another thread that I posted, it has some highligh videos that I made on youtube. (Most of my footage is from CavsFTW)

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=273334

oops so it was :lol

no excuses either, since I watched those videos as well (good stuff btw, the D video is my fave)



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AO2iGqgnDs


thats the video I meant to post originally in the thread...I uploaded it without the music

:hammerhead:

lol theme from Mirror's Edge? great song (and game, when is the sequel coming out? I think they said it was going to be a trilogy but I haven't heard anything in a while)

the Paul Van Dyk mix is great:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcEA2gK9Gx4

[Pointguard]

How much did those guys give Jabbar trouble. Because I've heard people suggest Jabbar "choked" or underperformed or was outhustled or whatever versus big name matchups (often regarding the playoffs) but I've also heard those (including Kareem himself) who suggest such notions are hyperbole that came about only because his teams (sometimes) lost, but that Jabbar inevitably won the matchup at the center position.


From what I've heard Moses outplayed him in the period where Moses was considered to be the better player and Thurmond gave his %s a hammering in couple of series. Did anyone else really give Jabbar substantial "problems" (and did they give him more problems than he presented to them? What instances are there of him being outplayed?) This is a genuine question though my leanings are pro-Jabbar.

FWIW, whilst Wilt clearly has his advantages over 4 the four "troublesome" centers, 3 have (substantially?) lower centers of gravity, and Malone and Cowens outside touches which Wilt lackedSo it's not like Wilt was a frankenstein built specificically to give Jabbar matchup nightmares..


Jlauder pretty much answered most of this above.

Dave Cowens did not have a touch. I don't know where you got that from. I saw plenty of film of him (tho he perhaps shouldn't be in the conversation anyway). Moses Malone didn't have much of one either - it was only on ocassion that he would hit that foul line jumper but he was always awkward with it. If either one of those guys hit for 500% it was a near deviation. And Malone scored a great majority of his points at point blank range. By no means was their touch or offensive skill set in the same hemisphere as Wilt.

Malone didn't trick Kareem when he out played him. He flat out out hustled him. It wasn't complicated. It was I'm going to outrebound you and outscore you. It was primarily will power and energy. The exact same thing with Thurmond. Skill set and offensive fundamentals weren't needed in their scenarios with Kareem. Kareem was way more talented than they were. Gilmore played him even a whole lot as well. So to outplay Kareem you cant say it required great scoring talent, or a ton of skill, or even great athletism which is really odd when you think about it. Now Wilt had those things and had Moses tenacity for boards and activity and Thurmond's defensive presence along with Gilmore's strength, and scoring unlike anything Kareem ever seen. Wilt outplayed Kareem when Wilt was scoring at 40% of his peak and Kareem was in his second most productive scoring year.

[Legends66NBA7]

This is a great question and I've done a bit of defending on both players for the last week or so.

I do believe both will forever be in the GOAT arbitrary rankings as well as the case for the GOAT. After thinking about it for quiet sometime, my answer is Kareem. You can't really go wrong with either player and I don't have a problem if someone picks Wilt.

It can really go either way, but I feel a bit more comfortable with my choice of Kareem over Wilt. Perhaps, I might reconsider this stance, reading more of thread and seeing everyone else's view points.

[jongib369]

This is a great question and I've done a bit of defending on both players for the last week or so.

I do believe both will forever be in the GOAT arbitrary rankings as well as the case for the GOAT. After thinking about it for quiet sometime, my answer is Kareem. You can't really go wrong with either player and I don't have a problem if someone picks Wilt.

It can really go either way, but I feel a bit more comfortable with my choice of Kareem over Wilt. Perhaps, I might reconsider this stance, reading more of thread and seeing everyone else's view points.
Thanks for the post, look for my most recent one and let me know what you think! I agree, its honestly a coin flip in which I wouldn't care the outcome...But I personally prefer Wilt

[jlauber]

Your whole post is disregarded once you brought up Chamberlain's stats from 1962 and made it seem like it was untouchable or something. You do realize the center position wasn't as good back then than it was in the 70's & 80's, sure there was some very good centers in the late 60's - early 70's, but in 1962 the competition at the center spot was poor, other than Bellamy & Russell there was nobody. Wilt was guarded by midgets most of the time in the early 60's. And did you even factor the fast pace he played at in 1962? Put 1977 Kareem in 1962 and he puts up stats just as dominant as Wilt.

Not to mention you stated straight up lies in your post to support your point. Kareem at age 31 put up 24 ppg, 13 rpg, 5 apg, 4 bpg, NOT 22/12/5 like you mentioned.

Kareem was winning league MVPs at age 32, was a Finals MVP at age 38 and being named to All-NBA First teams at 38 as well. Wilt at 38 was already 2 years retired, that is why I gave Kareem the edge in longevity. The one with a limited perspective here is yourself.

There is so much wrong with this post, I don't even know where to begin.

The average starting center in 1962 was 6-10, and most all of them were measured barefoot. Which would have meant that you could safely add at least an inch to each of their heights. Bellamy was 6-11, and Russell was nearly 6-10, so that means that Chamberlain was facing a 7-0 Bellamy, and a 6-11 Russell. Walter Dukes was 7-0, so he would have been at least 7-1.The Lakers had 6-11 Ray Felix, or...a seven-footer. The Knicks had a combo of 6-10 Darrall Imhoff nad 6-10 Phil Jordan...or two more that would have been 6-11. HOFer Clyde Lovellette was 6-9...or, 6-10 in today's NBA. Red Kerr was 6-9, so that means, 6-10...and was backed up by 7-3 Swede Halbrook was would have been listed at 7-4 in today's NBA. So, NO, Chamberlain was NOT guarded by "midgets" most of the time in '62, but rather, he was guarded by centers that were nearly the same height as those that started in 2012!

Secondly, you stated that if you put a '77 Kareem into the '62 season, he would have put up stats just as dominant as Wilt. Hmmm, so that means that Maravich would have averaged 55 ppg in '62? Because the Pistol was WAY ahead of Kareem in ppg in '77, at 31.1 ppg to Kareem's 26.2 ppg. Which BTW, was 26.2 ppg. How does 26.2 ppg in a league that averaged 106.5 ppg, and on .465 shooting, become 50 ppg in a league that averaged 118.8 ppg on .426 shooting? Do the simple math...Kareem's '77 NBA scored at 89.6% of Wilt's '62 NBA. Which means that he would have had to have averaged 44.8 ppg in '77 to translate to 50.4 ppg in '62.

The REALTY was, a '77 Kareem scored at just slightly more than 50% of Wilt's '62...and we KNOW that Wilt's '62 NBA was not scoring at twice the rate of Kareem's '77 NBA.

Instead, divide Wilt's '62 NBA, which was again, at 118.8 ppg, by Kareem's '77 NBA, which was at 106.5, and you get a multiplier of 1.12. Multiply Kareem's 26.2 x 1.12, and you get an average of.... 29.2 ppg. THAT is what a '77 Kareem would have averaged in '62! Not only that, but Kareem shot .579 in the 76-77 season, in an NBA that shot .465. Chamberlain's '62 NBA shot .426 (and an even lower .411 in the post-season), so that translates to a .530 mark by Kareem in '62. So, a '77 Kareem would have averaged 29.2 ppg on .530 shooting in '62.

Next, you claimed that Wilt's only real competition was Russell and Bellamy. Well, he faced each of them 10 times that season, and averaged 39.7 ppg against Russell, and get this... 52.7 ppg against Bellamy. His high game against Russell was 62 points that season. nd he had THREE games of 60+ against Bellamy, with a high game of 73 points.

Now, regarding Bellamy, here is where it gets interesting. Chamberlain routinely just shelled Bellamy throughout his career. You could all the way to thru their entire careers, and Chamberlain almost always killed him. I alreday mentioned the FACT that Wilt averaged 52.7 ppg against the 6-11...whoops, 7-0 Bellamy in his ten games in 61-62. In the 62-63 season, he averaged 43.7 ppg against him in ten more H2H's, and with yet ANOTHER 60 point game.

So what, you ask? Kareem would ALSO face Bellamy MANY times in HIS NBA career. Bellamy didn't retire until Kareem's sixth season in the league. I won'ty bother scouring through all of the their H2H boxscores to see what Kareem averaged against Bellamy. Why? Because Kareem's career high game was "only" 55 points. I already KNOW that he never approached Chamberlain's 73 point game against Bellamy (nor his THREE other 60+ point games, either.)

Hell, Kareem faced Darrall Imhoff on several occasions (Imhoff retored after Kareem's third year in the league.) Where was Kareem's 100 point game against him?

In Wilt's 64-65 season, and in NINE H2H games against 6-9 HOFer Willis Reed, Chamberlain AVERAGED 40.1 ppg. Included were games in which he outscored Reed by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and 58-28. Here again, I already KNOW that Kareem NEVER had a higher game against Reed, than what Chamberlain did.

In Wilt's 68-69 season, or just the year before Kareem's rookie year in 69-70, Chamberlain hung a 60 point game on Connie Dierking, and a 66 point game (on 29-35 shooting) against Jim Fox. Kareem would face BOTH of those guys the very next season. Here again... we KNOW that Kareem didn't score 60+ against either.

How about the 6-11+ HOFer Nate Thurmondm who would easily have been listed at 7-0+ in the current NBA? Kareem and Thurmond battled in 43 H2H starts in their careers. Kareem had SEVEN games, in those 43, of 30+ against Thurmond, with a HIGH game of 34. Furthermore, Kareem seldom even shot 50% against Thurmond, and in fact, in three straight playoff series against Thurmond, Kareem shot .486, .405, and .428!

How about a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain? He only faced Thurmond, in his elite scoring seasons, in about a dozen games. And how about this? From their last H2H game in the 64-65 season, thru their nine H2H battles in '65-66, and into their first H2H game in '67 (when Chamberlain dramatically cut back his shooting), Chamberlain AVERAGED 30 ppg in those 11 straight games. Included were games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and...get this... 45 points. Chamberlain was outscoring nate by margins of 30-10, 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and even 45-13.

And how about Wilt's FG%'s against Nate? I alreday gave you Kareem's three straight series against Thurmond of .486, .428, and even .405. Chamberlain also faced Thurmond in three post-season series, and outshot him by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398, and get this, .560 to .343, which BTW, came in a season in which Thurmond finished just behind Chamberlain in the MVP balloting, or his greatest seaon.

As for Kareem's longevity advantage. Well, we will never know how long Chamberlain could have continued to play. But what we do KNOW, is that Chamberlain, in his LAST season, and at age 36, he finished 4th in the MVP balloting (and third the year before.) He LED the NBA in rebounding, and by a solid margin over Thurmond, and way ahead of Kareem. He was voted first team all-defense (for the second straight season.) And he shot .727 from the field, which is a record that will probably never be broken.

Then, while Kareem took his 60-22 Bucks down in flames in the first round of the playoffs against Nate and his 47-35 Warriors, Chamberlain then took HIS 60-22 Lakers to a 4-1 series romp over Nate's Warriors, in a series in which eh just crushed Thurmond. Oh, and he went to his 4th Finals in his FIVE seasons with the Lakers. BTW, in that post-season, covering 17 games, and in a NBA that averaged 50.6 rpg in that post-season, Wilt averaged 22.5 rpg including outrebounding Thurmond, 23.6 rpg to 17.2 rpg in the WCF's. BTW, that 22.5 rpg would be the LAST time a player would ever average as much as 17.3 rpg in a post-season series, which was, BTW, Kareem in that '77 post-season (and in only 11 games.)

IMHO, Chamberlain could have easily played for another few seasons. In fact, Larry Brown was stunned to watch a pickup game in the early 80's, which included Magic Johnson, and in which Chamberlain dominated the game. And, BTW, Chamberlain received a LEGITIMATE offer to play in the NBA ...at age 50!

[Round Mound]

Wilt Dominated Both Regions: Offense and Defense. Kareem was More Skilled and Nicer To Watch but Wilt Could Dominate Games on Both Ends at the Same Time while Being the Best at Both :bowdown:

[Legends66NBA7]

Wilt Dominated Both Regions: Offense and Defense. Kareem was More Skilled and Nicer To Watch but Wilt Could Dominate Games on Both Ends at the Same Time while Being the Best at Both

Not sure if your implying it, but Kareem could and would dominate both ends of the floor and be the best at both... at the same time, as well.

[jlauber]

Not sure if your implying it, but Kareem could and would dominate both ends of the floor and be the best at both... at the same time, as well.

Just not nearly as dominant at either, as Chamberlain was.

[fpliii]

Just not nearly as dominant at either, as Chamberlain was.

jlauber - Do you happen to have the book mentioned in this post:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7288653&postcount=83

I'm interested in Wilt's complete rankings for the players listed and others. They sound pretty interesting and could be useful down the line.

[jlauber]

jlauber - Do you happen to have the book mentioned in this post:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7288653&postcount=83

I'm interested in Wilt's complete rankings for the players listed and others. They sound pretty interesting and could be useful down the line.

I used to have it, but a few years back I sold a ton of my old sports books and magazines (like Street&Smith's annual previews.)

I have read all of his books, as well as most of those about him (although I won't waste a dime buying Simmons' Book of Basktball Lies. I have read the entire chapter on the Russell-Wilt section online, and it was a downright disgrace.)

[fpliii]

I used to have it, but a few years back I sold a ton of my old sports books and magazines (like Street&Smith's annual previews.)

I have read all of his books, as well as most of those about him (although I won't waste a dime buying Simmons' Book of Basktball Lies. I have read the entire chapter on the Russell-Wilt section online, and it was a downright disgrace.)

Do you know if Owl has a copy, or only the quote? I'll buy the book if nobody else has it on here, but it'd be ideal to spare the cost.

BTW I was sent the following link from one of my APBR contacts:

http://www.bballsports2.com/

this has a few interesting clippings/articles. I also have acquired Harvey Pollack's contact information (available via PM), so we can contact him to help fill in the details once we've exhausted our resources.

[jongib369]

you have harvey's contact information!??!?!?!



http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkoj1cEm7L1qjd24zo1_500.gif

[fpliii]

you have harvey's contact information!??!?!?!



http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkoj1cEm7L1qjd24zo1_500.gif

yeah, in this thread:

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4367

I came across somebody who offered me the information. He gave me the contact via e-mail, but I'm not terribly comfortable sharing it publicly. I have his office/personal/fax numbers; though I don't think it's appropriate to share the home number, if you have a reasonable request PM me and I can give you his fax or office number (though I don't think I should share his home phone number).

[jongib369]

yeah, in this thread:

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4367

I came across somebody who offered me the information. He gave me the contact via e-mail, but I'm not terribly comfortable sharing it publicly. I have his office/personal/fax numbers; though I don't think it's appropriate to share the home number, if you have a reasonable request PM me and I can give you his fax or office number (though I don't think I should share his home phone number).
Have you been in contact with him to confirm it? I dont know what Id ask the man...to many things to ask haha. I'd love to hear his opinion on Kobe's 81 vs wilts 100...I have my own thoughts but hearing HIS, someone whose been apart of the NBA for so long and was AT the game is invaluable.


Idk if you have seen this guys channel, but I'd LOVE to see him do an interview with Harvey.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC51B5370639CC411&feature=plcp

[jongib369]

This is going to sound incredibly rude but if you guys are going to contact him or something Id do it as soon as possible...The guys 90...just saying. Ill be sad when he goes

[fpliii]

Have you been in contact with him to confirm it? I dont know what Id ask the man...to many things to ask haha. I'd love to hear his opinion on Kobe's 81 vs wilts 100...I have my own thoughts but hearing HIS, someone whose been apart of the NBA for so long and was AT the game is invaluable.


Idk if you have seen this guys channel, but I'd LOVE to see him do an interview with Harvey.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC51B5370639CC411&feature=plcp

I can confirm two of the numbers (fax+direct office line) as of last week (from contacting the Sixers, noting that I had the numbers on file, and wanted to see if they were accurate). I didn't ask about the home number since that'd be a strange request, but I have reason to believe it is correct.


This is going to sound incredibly rude but if you guys are going to contact him or something Id do it as soon as possible...The guys 90...just saying. Ill be sad when he goes

I'm looking to send him a fax in about a month, right around Labor Day in the U.S. As I noted, there are a couple of resources we haven't yet exhausted, which I'd like to do so we have as complete a record as possible upon contacting Mr. Pollack.

[Owl]

Jlauder pretty much answered most of this above.

Dave Cowens did not have a touch. I don't know where you got that from. I saw plenty of film of him (tho he perhaps shouldn't be in the conversation anyway). Moses Malone didn't have much of one either - it was only on ocassion that he would hit that foul line jumper but he was always awkward with it. If either one of those guys hit for 500% it was a near deviation. And Malone scored a great majority of his points at point blank range. By no means was their touch or offensive skill set in the same hemisphere as Wilt.

Malone didn't trick Kareem when he out played him. He flat out out hustled him. It wasn't complicated. It was I'm going to outrebound you and outscore you. It was primarily will power and energy. The exact same thing with Thurmond. Skill set and offensive fundamentals weren't needed in their scenarios with Kareem. Kareem was way more talented than they were. Gilmore played him even a whole lot as well. So to outplay Kareem you cant say it required great scoring talent, or a ton of skill, or even great athletism which is really odd when you think about it. Now Wilt had those things and had Moses tenacity for boards and activity and Thurmond's defensive presence along with Gilmore's strength, and scoring unlike anything Kareem ever seen. Wilt outplayed Kareem when Wilt was scoring at 40% of his peak and Kareem was in his second most productive scoring year.
From everything I've read about Cowens his virtue was his ability to drag centers outside. Despite tremendous athleticism his size disadvantage would have made it difficult for him to score from the post. Off the top of my head I suspect there are few good centers with a superior FT% (78.3% career) (a quick check of those I thought could be ahead shows Alvan Adams, Mike Gminski, Dan Issel, Sikma, Danny Schayes, Laimbeer and Yao Ming none had as good a career as Cowens some weren't close). I've only seen a few games (including 3 from the 76 finals) and so I'm going off what I've read but the impression I have of Cowens is an outside and driving center, which fit with his middling fg% and his ft%. How many games across his career are you going on?

Moses' shooting touch developed mostly later in his career so is probably irrelevant.


Do you know if Owl has a copy, or only the quote? I'll buy the book if nobody else has it on here, but it'd be ideal to spare the cost.

BTW I was sent the following link from one of my APBR contacts:

http://www.bballsports2.com/

this has a few interesting clippings/articles. I also have acquired Harvey Pollack's contact information (available via PM), so we can contact him to help fill in the details once we've exhausted our resources.

I've got all the books cited in the quote, presumably we're discussing the Wilt one. What do you want from it, just the rankings or all of what Wilt says? Depending what you want it may take some time but I'm willing to help.

[Punpun]

lol that doesn't look like someone who roided at all....Did you know he almost had to retire in 1965 (about) because of a heart problem??

HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING. ROIDS ARE KNOWN TO BE A CAUSE OF HEART ATTACKS. AND YES, CONSIDERING WILT SIZE, THIS LOOKS LIKE SOMEONE THAT ROIDED. ESPECIALLY AT AGE 50.

[dunksby]

^^Yep I have my own suspicions as well, a lot of athletes were doping back in 50s and 60s after synthesized hormones became available, the first international federations to introduce doping tests were cycling and FIFA who did it in 1966 and it was first done by the IOC in 1968 Olympics so it's really not a stretch given Wilt's tall tales and his health problems.

[fpliii]

From everything I've read about Cowens his virtue was his ability to drag centers outside. Despite tremendous athleticism his size disadvantage would have made it difficult for him to score from the post. Off the top of my head I suspect there are few good centers with a superior FT% (78.3% career) (a quick check of those I thought could be ahead shows Alvan Adams, Mike Gminski, Dan Issel, Sikma, Danny Schayes, Laimbeer and Yao Ming none had as good a career as Cowens some weren't close). I've only seen a few games (including 3 from the 76 finals) and so I'm going off what I've read but the impression I have of Cowens is an outside and driving center, which fit with his middling fg% and his ft%. How many games across his career are you going on?

Moses' shooting touch developed mostly later in his career so is probably irrelevant.



I've got all the books cited in the quote, presumably we're discussing the Wilt one. What do you want from it, just the rankings or all of what Wilt says? Depending what you want it may take some time but I'm willing to help.

Just the rankings would be great, perhaps with a few words for each guy (not whole quotes). Thanks! :cheers:

[scandisk_]

Well KAJ is certainly more accomplished, but I've always got a feeling that a prime wilt chamberlain would outplay Lew most of the time they face each other, fakkit I'm being too generous he'll dominate him.

[Owl]

Just the rankings ...
I

[Owl]

So by the main system it

[fpliii]

[QUOTE=Owl]So by the main system it

[Owl]

One of the noteworthy things that stood out to me was the suggestion that Walt Bellamy enjoyed and was successful versus Russell one on one (when Bellamy was on the offensive end).

[fpliii]

One of the noteworthy things that stood out to me was the suggestion that Walt Bellamy enjoyed and was successful versus Russell one on one (when Bellamy was on the offensive end).

I haven't done enough research on the Russell-Bellamy matchup yet, but a defensive anchor really has two duties: (1) to lock down the paint and (2) to guard his man

Russell was exceptional at (1), perhaps the greatest ever, but I don't know enough about his man defense at the 5 (from my understanding, at least Thurmond and Warriors Wilt were superior in this regard) to pass judgment in (2)