Should the NBA go back to 80's Rules?

[jongib369]

80's or even prior would be better than today IMO. A LOT of good players today, but the defense's are weak compared to past era's because of the wet rag rules...To many tic tac fouls, way to many stupid rules on the big men..and WAY to easy for guards


http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/handchecking%204.jpg



http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/jordan118.jpg


http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/handchecking%201.jpg



http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/81412688.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

[arifgokcen]

80's or even prior would be better than today IMO. A LOT of good players today, but the defense's are weak compared to past era's because of the wet rag rules...To many tic tac fouls, way to many stupid rules on the big men..and WAY to easy for guards


http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/handchecking%204.jpg



http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/jordan118.jpg


http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/handchecking%201.jpg



http://hoopsapedia.webs.com/81412688.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE
NBA maybe softer.
However defenses are much better so are the players.80s players would struggle in today's league

[Poetry]

80s players would struggle in today's league

You must be like 15-20 years old.

The 1980's weren't that long ago. Look at someone like John Stockton, who was equally effective "per minute" in the 80's, 90's, 00's. Hardly anything has changed. Imagine him at the beginning of the last decade with youth. He would be just as effective, maybe more so.

[NumberSix]

Even though the rules are tougher on defenders today, the defense is still stronger than the 80's. Players in the 80's simply didn't take advantage of the leeway they had.

[JMT]

Amazing that people who weren't alive know all about an era.

[Math2]

Even though the rules are tougher on defenders today, the defense is still stronger than the 80's. Players in the 80's simply didn't take advantage of the leeway they had.

Yup. The NBA uses the ***** rules to open up the middle, but the game was really much more entertaining when people just ran. No rules making the defender like some peasant being near a king, just basketball.

[kennethgriffin]

keep the rules the way they are for the most part. just ban flopping and bring back a few fights and let people foul harder

the reason slow boring tall centers dont have such a huge impact on the game anymore is because of the rule changes

in a way its made the game more appealing...

sure its taken away some of the hard contact and fighting. but at the end of the day. i'd rather not see another shaq

if the rules were what they were 20 years ago.. howard would have multiple titles by now. he would just bang away inside. isolate and dunk over people..

but with the defenses being able to play zones and there not being illegal d anymore. they can force the bigs to get rid of the ball

this is why bynum has to feed off kobe and gasols skills in order to free up an open look

its not kobes fault bynum doesnt get more than 18-20ppg... its the rules

youl never see another big man average 27+ppg with a back to the basket post game

and thats a good thing

[Horatio33]

keep the rules the way they are for the most part. just ban flopping and bring back a few fights and let people foul harder

the reason slow boring tall centers dont have such a huge impact on the game anymore is because of the rule changes

in a way its made the game more appealing...

sure its taken away some of the hard contact and fighting. but at the end of the day. i'd rather not see another shaq

if the rules were what they were 20 years ago.. howard would have multiple titles by now. he would just bang away inside. isolate and dunk over people..

but with the defenses being able to play zones and there not being illegal d anymore. they can force the bigs to get rid of the ball

this is why bynum has to feed off kobe and gasols skills in order to free up an open look

its not kobes fault bynum doesnt get more than 18-20ppg... its the rules

youl never see another big man average 27+ppg with a back to the basket post game

and thats a good thing

It's not Bynum's fault Kobe shoots 43% and keeps shooting.

[kennethgriffin]

It's not Bynum's fault Kobe shoots 43% and keeps shooting.

its a bit down from 45% yea. but 43% isnt nearly as bad as some people make it out to be

when you make a ton of free throws and make a few threes. it some of balances out.

he could do better and probably will this year with nash setting him up for a few easy ones

you're forgetting that kobe shouldnt even be playing this many minutes. his bench was so bad he had to. and mike brown didnt know how to get kobe any easy looks.

kobe helped others get easy looks. but nobody ever would run a play to pass to kobe. only time he got the ball to score was on an isolation or at the end of a clock

imagine how kobe will work with a guy making plays for him for a change

[Poetry]

if the rules were what they were 20 years ago.. howard would have multiple titles by now. he would just bang away inside. isolate and dunk over people.

Dwight isn't on par with the super elite centers of yesteryear. Not everyone was going for 27+. Dwight is hovering a step below those guys, at the end of the day, maybe side-by-side with guys like Zo.

[Poetry]

It's not Bynum's fault Kobe shoots 43% and keeps shooting.

Oh and nothing against Kobe, but i'm dying to see what Bynum can become averaging 18-20 attempts a game.

[andgar923]

If they went back it would become a really slow and boring game. It would take almost half a decade or so for players to get used to the changes, by that I mean they would have to learn how to move without the ball, and pass.

Imagine the game now with iso one on one players, but with handchecking and lack of ball movement? it would be awful to watch.

Clogged lanes would also stop most of the penetration, so most perimeter players would force even more shots.

[TMacMagic]

Bring back hand-checking! :rockon:

[MaxFly]

Let's just remind people of how defensively stingy and disciplined teams were in the 80. It was almost impossible to score.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1982.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1986.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html

[Burgz V2]

the rules are the way they are now because that's the way the owners want it to be

sure it may be less physical, but the owners care about protecting their investment on these players. They weren't making 20 mil a year in the 80s.

defenses strategies have improved, technology and game preparation has come light years compared to that era so there are ways in which you can compensate for a handful of rule changes. NBD imo

[keep-itreal]

keep the rules the way they are for the most part. just ban flopping and bring back a few fights and let people foul harder

the reason slow boring tall centers dont have such a huge impact on the game anymore is because of the rule changes

in a way its made the game more appealing...

sure its taken away some of the hard contact and fighting. but at the end of the day. i'd rather not see another shaq

if the rules were what they were 20 years ago.. howard would have multiple titles by now. he would just bang away inside. isolate and dunk over people..



:wtf: :wtf: is this what kids really think these days?

[Ne 1]

the rules are the way they are now because that's the way the owners want it to be

sure it may be less physical, but the owners care about protecting their investment on these players. They weren't making 20 mil a year in the 80s.

defenses strategies have improved, technology and game preparation has come light years compared to that era so there are ways in which you can compensate for a handful of rule changes. NBD imo

The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:


1978-79
Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through “rigid enforcement” of rule allowing a defensive player to retain contact with his opponent so long as he does not impede his opponent’s progress.

In the 80s, I've seen handchecking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to handcheck etc. Sports Illustrated published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Handchecking was still allowed in the backcourt however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in '94.

The same BS complaints people have now, people had back then. I saw old timers from the 70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Michael Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). And the same "handchecking" complaints were going on in '93, in fact here's an NY Times article:


Published: March 28, 1993
The increase of flagrant fouls and violence between players in today's National Basketball Association is a direct result of the elimination of the defensive hand check from games. Physical contact has always been a part of modern professional basketball. But when the N.B.A. abolished a defensive player's ability to use the hand check as a way of slowing down the offensive player he was guarding, players began finding new ways to keep their opponents from going to the hoop. As a result, the hip check has replaced the hand check, as frustrated players try to limit their opponents' scoring chances.

It is time for the N.B.A. to reinstate the use of the hand-check.

[Yung D-Will]

keep the rules the way they are for the most part. just ban flopping and bring back a few fights and let people foul harder

the reason slow boring tall centers dont have such a huge impact on the game anymore is because of the rule changes

in a way its made the game more appealing...

sure its taken away some of the hard contact and fighting. but at the end of the day. i'd rather not see another shaq

if the rules were what they were 20 years ago.. howard would have multiple titles by now. he would just bang away inside. isolate and dunk over people..

but with the defenses being able to play zones and there not being illegal d anymore. they can force the bigs to get rid of the ball

this is why bynum has to feed off kobe and gasols skills in order to free up an open look

its not kobes fault bynum doesnt get more than 18-20ppg... its the rules

youl never see another big man average 27+ppg with a back to the basket post game

and thats a good thing


So you'd rather not see another Shaq/Hakeem level big man?:biggums:

[Jax]

Imagine Lebron or Kobe pushing defenders off with their arms...
Shaq did that though and we all saw what happened.

[LebronairJAMES]

Bring back hand-checking! :rockon:
this is the only rule they need back

[longtime lurker]

:oldlol: at thinking the 80's was some defensive showcase. Defenses are much better today and sophisticated with the help of technology. What they need to do is bring back hand checking and physical play, but that would expose at lot of the superstars in the league which Stern would never want.

[lilgodfather1]

Lol the defense in the 80's was a joke. Oh hey there's Larry Bird a top 5 player of all time (at the time) let's guard him man to man! Oh look it's Jordan let's just guard him one on one too.

Yeah defense in the 80's was great :facepalm

[DatAsh]

Let's just remind people of how defensively stingy and disciplined teams were in the 80. It was almost impossible to score.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1982.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1986.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html


The higher ppg is virtually all due to a faster pace and has little to do with actual defense.

The rules made it a tad harder for perimeter players to score back then, but the rules today make it harder for bigmen. It somewhat balances itself out, so I guess I don't really see the problem.

As much as I love hand checking(for what it does to defense), it would be wrong for the overall direction and future of this league. People love to watch the Jordans/Kobes/Lebrons, that's what makes money, and that's what's effective in today's league. Bringing back rules that make it harder for those guys to score is a step in the wrong direction.

[Micku]

Even though the rules are tougher on defenders today, the defense is still stronger than the 80's. Players in the 80's simply didn't take advantage of the leeway they had.

Yeah. The league actually got better defensively later on. Especially when the Pistons won the championship. The Pistons beat talented Celtics, MJ Bulls and Celtics with less talent (except for the Bulls). They had to play team ball and step up defensively to beat those teams. They inspired the rest of the league to do that. At least for superstars in the league.

Not to say that the 80s didn't have defensive teams before. The Celts were pretty good defensive in 86, the Bucks, and the Lakers were solid defensively as well. By time the late 80s, you see the league changing and adopting to less face pace basketball to a slower game.

It was really the mindset that separate the ltheague then and now, not so much the rules and defense. The players ran and played at a faster pace, and they take the best shot open to them. They would play similar to the Suns in the mid 00s, and shoot to score with using few secs on the shot clock.

As mentioned before, the 70s had real handcheck. There were players in the 70s that complain how it's impossible to guard MJ in the 90s and 80s because of the rules. They said that have to play team defense and rough like the Pistons and the Knicks.

The only reason why I think the league wanted to eliminate hand checking and implement zone is because they could increase perimeter play (for ratings) and somewhat eliminate hot dogging/star play. And to stop Shaq for dominating in the early 00s.

The NBA don't need to go back to the 80s rules. But they need to do something about the flopping.

[RaininTwos]

Let's just remind people of how defensively stingy and disciplined teams were in the 80. It was almost impossible to score.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1982.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1986.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1989.html

:roll:

[RaininTwos]

The higher ppg is virtually all due to a faster pace and has little to do with actual defense.


I thought the same but then I checked out the field goal percentage for the teams and that kinda went out the window when I saw like two or three teams shooting over 50%. Shooting over 50% as a team.

Then I looked at the 2005-2006 season that everyone likes to spotlight and most efficient team was the Suns, shooting a paltry 47.9% from the field. They would have been 19th in 1986.

I know I might be missing something so let me know.

[jlauber]

In honor of Duncewood...

00's, the "Kobe-era"...weak era. Tiny Archibald would have averaged 40 ppg in the decade of the 2000's.

[kennethgriffin]

So you'd rather not see another Shaq/Hakeem level big man?:biggums:
Hakeem sure... Shaq no... He was boring to watch. Loved having him on my team but i remember how slow and predictable our offense was. Shaq took advantage of the rules to the point where The rules had to be changed. Unskilled big man pounding and overpowering dunk machines is not basketball. Ive always been a skills fan 1st

[Calabis]

The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:



In the 80s, I've seen handchecking get called all the time. Commentators pointing out on replays how the guy was not allowed to handcheck etc. Sports Illustrated published an entire feature article in the 80s because NBA defense was perceived as a JOKE. Poor help defense, no zone, less and less physicality, and so on. That's how everybody thought of it at the time. Handchecking was still allowed in the backcourt however to pressure the ball handler, but they eliminated that altogether in '94.

The same BS complaints people have now, people had back then. I saw old timers from the 70s on half time segments making fun of how you couldn't guard Michael Jordan because of all the favorable rules for him (isolation, lack of physicality etc). And the same "handchecking" complaints were going on in '93, in fact here's an NY Times article:

:facepalm

Oh Lord, once a year, you try this garbage and u guys kill me with this "Today's Defense" Bullshit...****ers get into the lane at will today

According to you handchecking was eliminated in 1970...lol, please explain these players comments about Alvin Robertson who came into the league in 1984:

Brian Shaw: When I was a rookie and hand-checking was part of the game, I was 180 pounds. He was strong enough to hold me by my waist. I could be dribbling the ball and trying to make progress to the basket, and he could just control me with one hand. That's the kind of strength he had. You have to hope that one of your big guys comes over and sets a screen on him so you can get away from him.

Ron Harper: Alvin and I are both from Ohio. I used to play with him in the summertime. He's a defensive player that slaps, grabs, and holds. He's intense all the time. He was a great defensive player. Not a good defensive player, but a great defensive player. He was a great athlete. You have to use your teammates to run screens. That was the only way to beat him.

Or these comments after 2004 rule changes

One former Rocket can appreciate the hand-checking ban more than anyone.
"I call it the Derek Harper-on-Kenny Smith Rule," said Kenny Smith, referring to the physical abuse he took from the New York Knicks in the 1994 Finals. "Now we're back to me against you."

NBA.com: Since the hand-checking rule was interpreted differently beginning in the 2004-05 season, the game has opened up. Players are penetrating and the floor is spread. As a result, scoring has risen every season. Was this anticipated back in 2004?

Stu Jackson: No. The scoring increase was not our goal. Our objective was to allow for more offensive freedom by not allowing defenders to hand-, forearm- or body-check ball handlers. By doing so, we encouraged more dribble penetration. As players penetrated more, it produced higher quality shots for the ball handler as well as shots for teammates on passes back out to perimeter. When NBA players get higher quality shots -- having more time to shoot -- they tend to make more of them.

Why would they be asking Stu Jackson this, if handchecking was abolished in 1970??

Doug Collins: "Without those rule changes, I'm sure we're not at this point," said the former player and coach-turned broadcaster. "Just the no hand-checking rule alone brought so much speed and penetration and cutting back into the game. Before, if a guy tried to go through the lane, it was

[KOBE143]

00's, the "Kobe-era"...weak era. Tiny Archibald would have averaged 40 ppg in the decade of the 2000's.
60's, the "Wilt The Choker-era"...weak era. Brian Scalabrine would have avg 60ppg, 30rpg in the decade of the 1960's.

[Ne 1]

.........



Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).




Published: March 28, 1993
The increase of flagrant fouls and violence between players in today's National Basketball Association is a direct result of the elimination of the defensive hand check from games. Physical contact has always been a part of modern professional basketball. But when the N.B.A. abolished a defensive player's ability to use the hand check as a way of slowing down the offensive player he was guarding, players began finding new ways to keep their opponents from going to the hoop. As a result, the hip check has replaced the hand check, as frustrated players try to limit their opponents' scoring chances.

It is time for the N.B.A. to reinstate the use of the hand-check.

Team defenses now > Back then, especially with the illegal defense rules restricting them (there's a reason the best defensive teams of the era tried to play and get away with a lot of illegal D, when will people understand TEAM DEFENSE is the most important thing in assessing quality of defense)
Average athlete now > Back then (watching a typical game, there is a visible difference in lateral quickness/ability to cover floor/recover+contest shots etc etc, the court is and feels a lot smaller now that's why you get a lot of talk of people wanting NBA to expand the sidelines)

Were defenses more physical as a whole in the 80s/early 90s? Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them better. If handchecking is everything then the 70s are the GOAT defensive era.

Another thing people complain about is stars getting fouls on offensive flops (ticky tack fouls). That has always been the case. Offensive floppers get free throws, it's that simple. That's a reason why Reggie Miller in '90 and '91 averaged more free throws than Jordan did in '92 and '93 (not to mention Mike taking way more shots than him too). You rip through defenders arms, kick out your legs, jump into players, you're going to get the call. You avoid defenders in the air like a D-Rose or MJ (at times)? You're not getting the call. It's just a shame that there's a lot more of that in the game now.

Westbrook and Rose are two of the quickest players I've ever seen, they should be basically unstoppable due to no handchecking/no touch rules right (especially with respectable mid-range jumpers behind them)? But their scoring efficiency is quite mediocre, what gives?


Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It does make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the handchecking was done in the backcourt anyways.

For a shooting guard, small forward and especially for big men, illegal defense rules being taken out and also zone being put in is a bigger problem. Help defense as a result in the 00s has been better than ever before, and it's also never been harder to play out of the post.

Now let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tons and tons of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check". You could use your forearm to slow down a defender and that's it.

Also this supposedly "old school rough and tough basketball" is still played in the Euro league with all the hand checking rules + zone defenses.

And one thing is for sure; A foul is still a foul, a defender is only allowed to use his forearm to slow down attacking player, that's it. It's not like defenders are allowed to push, restrain or chop the hands and fingers of their opponents. That's complete bull sh*t.

Hilarious that some people will look at a few cherry picked/selective clips on youtube and then come to the conclusion that the league was no blood, no foul in the 80s and 90s.

[Rake2204]

It is my opinion that a large mass of people will forever be dissatisfied with any number of current NBA characteristics. The older I become, the stranger it begins to sound. I remember folks just hating the '04 style of play while it was happening (the year the Pistons held 4 or 5 consecutive opponents to 69 points or less). Now, I'm honestly receiving comments on some of my YouTube videos about people longing for the days of '04, sharing how satisfying it was to watch such wonderful defense being played in contrast to today's style.

To tie into the topic, I think switching back to the old rules would trade the complaints from current folks about the lack of defense for complaints from other people about the game being too bogged down and run by thugs. As such, I try to roll with as much as possible. I liked the game in the 90's, I liked it in the 00's and I like it today. If I had to pick a perfect style though, I think I'd just hybrid things a little bit. I think the move away from condoning hard fouls is a wise and logical one, so as neat as big hits are, I don't think I could rightfully re-instate those types of plays. Maybe I'd allow for a little more contact, but not much.


Handchecking is nowhere as physical as it is made out to be. It does make it easier to stay in front of your man, but you could NEVER alter the course of the player through handchecking, or they would call a foul. In the 80s they would let that go but for some reason the 80s physical play is assigned to all of the 90s (and then magically after 1998 the defenses all went weak :oldlol:). Most of the handchecking was done in the backcourt anyways.

For a shooting guard, small forward and especially for big men, illegal defense rules being taken out and also zone being put in is a bigger problem. Help defense as a result in the 00s has been better than ever before, and it's also never been harder to play out of the post.

Now let me explain something to you posters who obviously haven't got tons and tons of tapes lying around of the games back then. It's called a hand "check", thus meaning check. Not hand restraint, punch, claw, super shield, ultimate wall, just a check. Players were not allowed to impede a players motion in any which direction they chose to go. They were only allowed to sense body movement and have a better perception of which way the body was going. Remember now, hand "check". You could use your forearm to slow down a defender and that's it.

Also this supposedly "old school rough and tough basketball" is still played in the Euro league with all the hand checking rules + zone defenses.

And one thing is for sure; A foul is still a foul, a defender is only allowed to use his forearm to slow down attacking player, that's it. It's not like defenders are allowed to push, restrain or chop the hands and fingers of their opponents. That's complete bull sh*t.

Hilarious that some people will look at a few cherry picked/selective clips on youtube and then come to the conclusion that the league was no blood, no foul in the 80s.Pretty darn true and on the money. Well stated. I've also enjoyed someone citing a Detroit Pistons Bad Boys YouTube clip while claiming that's more or less how every single Pistons defensive possession looked back then.

[Ne 1]

Pretty darn true and on the money. Well stated. I've also enjoyed someone citing a Detroit Pistons Bad Boys YouTube clip while claiming that's more or less how every single Pistons defensive possession looked back then.


People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.

It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players b*tched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.

[Ne 1]

And lets completely ignore the rules that favored isolation ball and significantly worse team defense than what we have now. From the early 80s when they started to crack down on and clarified the following rules:




a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16’), but not in the college lane (12’) for more than three seconds.
b. Defender on post player is allowed in defensive three-second area (A post player is any player adjacent to paint area).
c. Player without ball may not be double-teamed from weak side.
d. Offensive player above foul line and inside circle must be played by defender inside dotted line.
e. If offensive player is above the top of the circle, defender must come to a position above foul line.
f. Defender on cutter must follow the cutter, switch, or double-team the ball.


These rules were VERY restrictive to team defense. I'm surprised how many of these alleged old school fans can't even realize the value of this.


Please watch old school games...the entire thing not just highlights and look at how the following things negatively impact the team defense.


Also look for how much easier it is to create an isolation 1 on 1 situation for your star player.

You really think handchecking, which still was regulated, is more important than all this? I would gladly trade keeping what is above for whatever 1-2 extra FTs players shoot today (even though team FTA are actually much much lower than before, and on average a team shot less than 1 additional FT after the "new rules" were put in).

[Alan Shore]

no real need to bring back the hand check.

but they have to tighten up the rules on palming and traveling and moving screens. that would promote more passing and teamwork and less unwatchable one on one playground foolishness.

and flopping should be reviewable and a tech. that way the varejaus of the world would actually have to move their feet.

[knickswin]

i like the old school style more. I think it encourages better team work and more inside play.

I've actually enjoyed watching the women play these olympics. i think they are passing much better than the men.

[AlphaWolf24]

- This is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during 1985-1998.

Michael Jordan - 6 times
Chris Mullen - 6 times
Adrian Dantley - 4 times
Kiki Vandewedge - 4 times
Reggie Miller - 3 times
James Worthy - 3 times
Alex English - 3 times
Dale Ellis - 3 times
Magic Johnson - 2 times
Penny Hardaway - 2 times
Kevin Johnson - 2 times
Clyde Drexler - 2 times
Cedric Ceballos - 2 times
Mark Aguirre - 2 times
Gary Payton - once
Byron Scott - once
Rolando Blackman - once
Walter Davis - once
Jeff Hornacek - once
Otis Birdsong - once
Jeff Malone - once
George Gervin - once
Drazen Petrovic - once
Reggie Lewis - once
Derek Smith - once
Scottie Pippen - once



And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the era 2000-2010.

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


- So in Mid 80's - mid 90's era it was done 56 times by 26 different players.

In the last 11 years, it has been done only 5 times by 5 different players.


- You absolutley have no clue what your talking about. Modern defense is far more harder to score against...especially for perimeter players.

- If you ever watched "80's" style defense , it was not as overall effective to close on shooters or play a stretched out defensive game.

If you want more 1 on 1 defense and no zone...then yes 80's is great.....perimeter star players will be averaging 35PPG

[Rake2204]

- This is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during 1985-1998.

Michael Jordan - 6 times
Chris Mullen - 6 times
Adrian Dantley - 4 times
Kiki Vandewedge - 4 times
Reggie Miller - 3 times
James Worthy - 3 times
Alex English - 3 times
Dale Ellis - 3 times
Magic Johnson - 2 times
Penny Hardaway - 2 times
Kevin Johnson - 2 times
Clyde Drexler - 2 times
Cedric Ceballos - 2 times
Mark Aguirre - 2 times
Gary Payton - once
Byron Scott - once
Rolando Blackman - once
Walter Davis - once
Jeff Hornacek - once
Otis Birdsong - once
Jeff Malone - once
George Gervin - once
Drazen Petrovic - once
Reggie Lewis - once
Derek Smith - once
Scottie Pippen - once



And here is the list of guards/small forwards who shot over 50% and had 20+ PPG during the era 2000-2010.

Lebron James - once
Chris Paul - once
Tony Parker - once
Monta Ellis - once
Shawn Marion - once


- So in Mid 80's - mid 90's era it was done 56 times by 26 different players.

In the last 11 years, it has been done only 5 times by 5 different players.


- You absolutley have no clue what your talking about. Modern defense is far more harder to score against...especially for perimeter players.

- If you ever watched "80's" style defense , it was not as overall effective to close on shooters or play a stretched out defensive game.

If you want more 1 on 1 defense and no zone...then yes 80's is great.....perimeter star players will be averaging 35PPG
Without delving too deeply into things, and fully acknowledging defensive ability could play a role, I don't think it can safely be said defensive ability is the only potential reason players may shoot at a lower percentage nowadays. There'd be a number of other questions I'd have to ask before I came to a sole "defense is stronger" conclusion. For starters:

1. What was the pace like during the 80's compared to the 00's?

2. How many players in the 80's featured the 3pt. shot as a significant portion of their arsenal? Would an increase in 3pt. attempts by guards and swingmen today be in part responsible for the drop in FG%?

3. Did players work for better shots in the 80's vs. 00's? For instance, do 00's settle for more three pointers or fallaway jump shots?

4. Did offensive systems revolve around better movement and quicker, more open looks in the 80's versus a possible isolation era of the 00's?

5. Is today's style of play simply different? And is FG% always directly correlated to defensive ability? For instance, do the low shooting percentages of players from the "fire at will" era of the early 60's mean the defense of that era was hands down the best ever? Or did the play style play a role (i.e., take first available shot, not necessarily the best)?

I'm not asking each of these questions rhetorically. Rather, I'm just saying it's tough to point at one single reason for the lower field goal percentages of modern day.

[Calabis]

......

New Jersey Nets executive Rod Thorn, a longtime expert on NBA rules, acknowledges that last season the league adopted a dramatic shift in how it interpreted the rules of the game.

No longer would a defensive player on the perimeter be allowed to use his hand, a barred arm or any sort of physical contact to impede or block the movement of either a cutter or a ball handler.

In a recent interview, Thorn said that the NBA had changed the rule to give an advantage to the offensive player.

[B]

[Calabis]

Lakers vs. Pistons -- Bryant's PER 14.2
"With his feud against Shaq escalating and the series getting away from the Lakers, Bryant began taking whatever shot struck him. Mostly, they struck the rim -- he shot 38.1 percent and had nearly as many turnovers (18) as assists (22) as Detroit romped in five games."

During the series, Mav's owner Mark Cuban made some interesting observations about the defensive play of the Pistons (handchecking as Jordan era players new it was dead, but minimal/temporary contact was still sometimes allowed) and the 'advantage' they had over offensive perimeter players and decided a change was necesary to tip the scales in the other direction...

From his Blog Maverick weblog, Mark Cuban's article 'If It

[The Iron Fist]

It's not Bynum's fault Kobe shoots 43% and keeps shooting.
Its kobes fault that Bynum has two rings.

[Calabis]

People act as if this handcheck was some giant wall players had to work around. A hand check is exactly what it says it is, a "check". Helps track the player. You could not interfere with the players movement or push on it. Like today, it is a foul. Was back then, is now.

It's funny because if your handcheck in any way obstructed the player from getting to the basket (ie. too physical, nearing a push) you would instantly be whistled for a foul. The handcheck was more physical in the 70s than 80s/early 90s. But still, to be honesst I'm not even sure the 80s were even more physical than today. You see the same number of ridiculous calls (players b*tched and flopped less often though) back then as now. The posters making these wild allegations wouldn't know though, they've seen a couple of selected YouTube clips and doubt many have even sat through a single average 80s regular season game. 60+ FTA games were the average back then (look it up). For all the moaning about free throw attempts after 2005, teams on average shot less than 1 extra FT the following year.

Dude please be quite, no way in hell were you watching basketball in the 80's or early 90's, trying to read articles and act like you watched it....Alvin Robertson, Derek Harper, guided people with the damn handcheck...I posted comments from players who played in the league, yet we are suppose to listen to u'r garbage.

AND 1 MORE TIME 80's-90's style defense.

Since Kobe had the advantage on the defender, they didn’t call a foul. However that little bump slowed Kobe down just enough that it gave Ben Wallace a split second more to on a pre rotation to the Paint, to be in a better position to defend the basket. Kobe still scored, but not quite as often as he may have otherwise.

And let's not even get into Defensive 3 seconds and the no contact zone under the hoop

[Ne 1]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

[Calabis]

Real handchecking was eliminated in 1980 (check rules history). Wish my old computer hadn't gone dead, had lots of clips of handcheck fouls being called in the early 90s and the commentators (like Hubie Brown) saying word for word: "you can't handcheck in this league, that went out in 1980". Does it mean you couldn't actually handcheck? No, but the real handcheck (when you could literally have an affect on the player's movement) was taken out years ago, you could get away with it then just like you can get away with it now though. Anyone who watches any ball right now should know that handchecking is not regulated that tightly at all, especially in the playoffs these last couple of years (I do remember them making a point about it when the rule change first happened though).

:roll:

His own personal quotes :facepalm .....LMAO...dude you try this crap every 6-8 months and video evidence has been shown disproving u'r nonsense, players and articles written have been posted disproving u'r nonsense,,,enjoy I'm not getting caught up in u'r nonsense...u and the other Kobetards said the Jordan Rules were a myth too, even after and article was posted with him and players saying what they would do....enjoy u'r day sir

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7U8_LoyxSM

Scottie what do you know, you played in the NBA

[Ne 1]

.

You didn't disprove anything. All anyone has to do is check rules history

REAL handchecking was eliminated back in 1979 due to an NBA rule change. The handchecking you saw after that was minor compared to that of 70's NBA, in which you were literally allowed to completely body the guy dribbling the ball. He was allowed no space back in the 70's, and the League knew that was too tough/physical so they more or less got rid of it. 80's/90's/00's/10's "hand checking" is minor.

That is an irrefutable fact. Nice try using red-herring tactics and straw man arguments though.

[KevinNYC]

[QUOTE=Ne 1]And lets completely ignore the rules that favored isolation ball and significantly worse team defense than what we have now. From the early 80s when they started to crack down on and clarified the following rules:

[QUOTE]
a. Weak side defenders may come in the pro lane (16

[KevinNYC]

Originally Posted by NumberSix
Even though the rules are tougher on defenders today, the defense is still stronger than the 80's. Players in the 80's simply didn't take advantage of the leeway they had.
Yeah. The league actually got better defensively later on. Especially when the Pistons won the championship. The Pistons beat talented Celtics, MJ Bulls and Celtics with less talent (except for the Bulls). They had to play team ball and step up defensively to beat those teams. T
It was those late 1980's Pistons teams that took every advantage they could.

They might not have the most talent 1-5, but 1-10 they might have
They were among the deepest teams ever. They had 10 guys playing more than 16 minutes a game in1989. So they could keep up their intensity without getting too tired and they could keep fouling you and know that someone else could come off the bench. A guy like James Edwards is forgotten now, but he made major contributions in their playoff runs.

[KevinNYC]

The late 80 Pistons took advantage the hit you and hit you again, plus they were playing a very sophisticated team defensive strategy. They were the ones who really started the arms race in team defense that ramped up in the 90's.

[MaxFly]

The late 80 Pistons took advantage the hit you and hit you again, plus they were playing a very sophisticated team defensive strategy. They were the ones who really started the arms race in team defense that ramped up in the 90's.

This is exactly what happened. Teams that they weren't as offensively talented as others in the league chose to slow the game in order to give their defenses more of an opportunity to set. Teams also became more physical on defense, taking advantage of the rules at the time.

The 80s saw teams like the 81-82 Nuggets give up 126 points per game to opponents with the average team giving up 108.6 points per game. The run and gun style of the 80s was not conducive to great defense.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Yes.

80's basketball >>>