Lets Be Real: Dirk Was More Successful as a Lead Dog Than KG

[SilkkTheShocker]

And its not even close, really.

[KingBeasley08]

Does anyone dispute that..?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Does anyone dispute that..?


I just think its comical when people say there is no arguement for Dirk over KG on the all time player rankings. Dirk did a lot more as a lead-dog and actually led his team to a title.

[Sarcastic]

Mavs >>> Wolves.

The Joe Smith fiasco really held the Wolves back, and stunted Garnett's progress as the lead guy.

[LamarOdom]

You got to factor in TBW terrible front office and that KG didn't get one single draft pick in seven years. His team sucked, as for talent I would say KG is superior. He was the better passer, defender (by faaaar), rebounder.

Once he got some talent around him he won the title, IMO he should have won the FMVP, but yeah Dirk is a great player, one of the best PF scorer ever.

There is a case for both of them but I'm giving KG the nod.

[SilkkTheShocker]

So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.

[FreezingTsmoove]

It isn't close gimme the guy who can close out games, series regularly. Lets not act like Garnett doesn't dissapear in the 4th.

Game 6, 2010 finals

Garnett 12 points 6 rebounds :lol

Game 7: 17 points (not that bad) but 3 rebounds :roll:


Dirk Game 6 of the 2011 NBA finals

21 points 11 rebounds on horrible efficiency but he still left it all on the line

Dirk Game 6 of 2006 NBA finals

30 points 15 boards and who knows what would've happended if Jason Terry didn't think he was ******* ray allen at the end of the game

[Rubio2Gasol]

So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.

You could put together a weaker team with players more suited to playing with Kg and they would get it done to be honest.Prime KG was a monster, put him on any of Duncan's championship teams and he's get it done.

[Young X]

That doesn't mean he was better at playing basketball though.

[Cone]

Dirk is a true #1 option.. a KG lead team will never win a ring. You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.

[LamarOdom]

So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.

Don't know about that, that team was built around Dirk so you could never compare that way.

But KG would have won with Timmy's teams and also with any good SG (Kobe, DWade).

[Mr Know It All]

Arguing Dirk vs. KG is one of the better debates on ISH. In fact, probably the best player debate going.

Both played in same era, both had dominant statistical seasons at their peak KG (2004, 2005), Dirk (2006, 2007). Both had remarkable runs that fell short in their peak (KG 2004, Dirk 2006), and both had terrific seasons and title runs a little bit past their prime (KG 2008, Dirk 2011).

To top it all off, both players have something to hold over the other. KG as the better all-around PF (better rebounder and defender) and Dirk as the better "superstar" because of his clutch play and perennial success as the Mavericks franchise player.

To me, it's dead even, even thought I love Dirk as a player and tend to dislike KG because of his personality. Only thing that might put one over the top is another title (must be as at least #2 or #3 best player on the team though). Currently, it looks like neither Dirk or KG will realistically be able to fulfill that, so the debate rages on.

[Carbine]

Dirk is a true #1 option.. a KG lead team will never win a ring. You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.

It did though. I was hard on Garnett early in his career and really did not like the way he played in the '08 finals at all, but he did lead them to the ring as much as anyone else on the team did from the stand-point of taking all the series into factor.

[Remix]

Dirk is a true #1 option.. a KG lead team will never win a ring. You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.
pretty easy to say a kg led team will never win a ring when he's a couple seasons from retirement.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.

Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.

Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?

[Cone]

It did though. I was hard on Garnett early in his career and really did not like the way he played in the '08 finals at all, but he did lead them to the ring as much as anyone else on the team did from the stand-point of taking all the series into factor.

I'm talking about being the clear cut #1 option.. he did it with 2 hall of famers.

[SilkkTheShocker]

You could put together a weaker team with players more suited to playing with Kg and they would get it done to be honest.Prime KG was a monster, put him on any of Duncan's championship teams and he's get it done.


He was a monster but he isn't leading Jason Terry and JJ Barea to a championship.

[Odinn]

I'm talking about being the clear cut #1 option.. he did it with 2 hall of famers.
And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.

[SilkkTheShocker]

And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.


Allen and Pierce were both way better players than Kidd was in 2011. Kidd was a beast defensively, but he wasn't on PP or Allen's level at the time.

[bmulls]

And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.


I fail to see how a 37 year old Jason Kidd helps KG's case over Dirk. Context? :lol

[SilkkTheShocker]

Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.

Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?


Why wouldn't they? Dirk took two dogs.hit teams to the Finals and won one of them. Have you ever seen the 06 team? They were starting Adrian Griffin and had a center combo of Erick Dampier and Diop. Stacked :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Cone]

And Jason Kidd is a future HoFer without a doubt. People need to use context.

:biggums:

I don't think I need to explain my self.

[SCdac]

I wonder if Dirks champion ship run will continue to be surrounded by 1st and 2nd round knock outs. For the Mavs and his sake I hope not. Surely a revamped roster will help but who knows. From 2007-2012, Dirk carried the Mavs to a 26 win/26 loss record in the playoffs, including 4 first round exits.

[Rubio2Gasol]

He was a monster but he isn't leading Jason Terry and JJ Barea to a championship.

But that's subjective.

No one on the world would say Dirk was more successful than Duncan as a first option but KG would give those teams more (we all know TD is a better rim protector but KG's defensive versatility and lateral quickness across the perimiter compensates) to a a Chip.

Kidd/Barea
Stevenson/Terry
Marion/Stojokavic
Dirk
Chandler/Haywood

And all the other relative scrubs right, that's a nicely balanced team but whats more important is that all these guys played the playoffs of their lives and they were raining threes like we've never seen before.

Kidd/Barea
Steveson/Terry
Hedo/Stojakovic
KG
Chandler/Haywood

Could get it done almost as well (talking bout Orlando 09 Hedo BTW). There's virtually no change in talent there.ou're just accomodating for KG's strengths which is what Cuban and Dallas did for Dirk.

[Sarcastic]

So if you replaced Dirk with prime KG on that 2011 Mavs team, do people still see them winning the Finals? I don't.


If Lebron chokes again? Absolutely!!!

[kobron23]

both kg and dirk could never win without a great supporting cast carrying them to a finals. I would take kg though because he does alll the little things needed to win. all the little dirty things. dirk cant even set a screen properly and plays no d whatsoever

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Why wouldn't they? Dirk took two dogs.hit teams to the Finals and won one of them. Have you ever seen the 06 team? They were starting Adrian Griffin and had a center combo of Erick Dampier and Diop. Stacked :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Right. "Dog shit" teams, hah!

1st in offensive rating in 2006 and top 10 in DRtg in 2011.

Terry/Kidd/Stojakovic/Marion/Chandler/Stevenson >>>> Cassell/Hudson/Olowokandi/Szczerbiak/Hoiberg and it's not even close. Dallas' 2006 squad also had more talent.

[Cone]

both kg and dirk could never win without a great supporting cast carrying them to a finals. I would take kg though because he does alll the little things needed to win. all the little dirty things. dirk cant even set a screen properly and plays no d whatsoever

I already knew you were retarded, but this just sealed it.

[Odinn]

:biggums:

I don't think I need to explain my self.
Yeah. But "he had HoFer(s)" argument without the context one of the weakest arguments. That's why I posted about it.

[raid09]

Allen and Pierce were both way better players than Kidd was in 2011. Kidd was a beast defensively, but he wasn't on PP or Allen's level at the time.

So really what you're saying is that since KG needed scorers to win a title, that somehow makes him less of a player than Dirk, who is only good-great at scoring and thus needs a team to cover up all of the other holes...

[kobron23]

I already knew you were retarded, but this just sealed it.

be sure to call me names more instead of dispute what im saying. you know im right

dirk is softer then charmin. cant say the same about kg

[fpliii]

you need an offensive and defensive leader to win a ring

08 Boston - Pierce/KG
11 Dallas - Dirk/Chandler

Garnett was robbed of Finals MVP in 08 (Allen also had a better case than Pierce), but wouldn't have won if you replaced Dirk with him in 11 (no guarantee Boston wins with Dirk in 08 either)

[Smoke117]

you need an offensive and defensive leader to win a ring

08 Boston - Pierce/KG
11 Dallas - Dirk/Chandler

Garnett was robbed of Finals MVP in 08 (Allen also had a better case than Pierce), but wouldn't have won if you replaced Dirk with him in 11 (no guarantee Boston wins with Dirk in 08 either)

Not really. Perkins and Rondo when on the floor made a bigger impact defensively than Pierce even as far back as the 08 season. A lot of people have been overrating Paul Pierce defensively since the big three had formed.

[miles berg]

Dirk took a team that had DeSagana Diop & Adrian Griffin starting to the NBA Finals.

Im not knocking KG, Im just saying Dirk shouldnt be knocked either.

Both were/are amazing and are guys that took each other to the MAX in their only playoff encounter; KG 24/19 per game, Dirk 33/15 per game.

It was an epic battle. Wish they had matched up more in the playoffs, it was a thing of beauty.

[CAstill]

Not really. Perkins and Rondo when on the floor made a bigger impact defensively than Pierce even as far back as the 08 season. A lot of people have been overrating Paul Pierce defensively since the big three had formed.


They're saying Pierce was the offensive Leader and KG was the defense.

[fpliii]

They're saying Pierce was the offensive Leader and KG was the defense.

yup

[CJ Mustard]

You're either a complete idiot, or weren't watching basketball in 2008 if you believe KG didn't lead the Celtics to that title. He was by far their best offensive, and defensive player.

It's not even close. Pierce and Ray were a distant 2nd and 3rd on that team. KG led that team in scoring in the Playoffs, and was the most complete offensive player on the team by FAR. And it wasn't even close on defense, he was in another stratosphere then everyone else.

Even if you take away the fact that KG led them in scoring in the Playoffs and was their best offensive player, he still would have led them to the title with his defense alone. That Celtics team didn't win the championship because they were an offensive juggernaut, they won because they were an all time great defensive team, and who anchored that defense? I rest my case.

Saying KG didn't lead the Celtics to the 2008 title is like saying Russell didn't lead the 60's Celtics to titles.

[FireDavidKahn]

Dirk is a true #1 option.. a KG lead team will never win a ring. You only pick KG over Dirk if he's the 2nd option.
KG was the best player when the Celtics won the ring. :confusedshrug:

[Smoke117]

yup

Oh Okay, well on that basis Pierce had no business winning the FMVP. Ray Allen had a much better offensive series in the 08 finals. I would probably have just given it to KG, but they went the offensive route and gave it to the guy who scored slightly more on a much shittier efficiency. Either Ray or KG should have been FMVP, not Pierce.

As far as the the topic goes, it was definitely KG who led the Celtics to a championship. He was by far the best player on the team. Dirk was more successful as a lead dog than KG...yeah and Dirk had better teams and didn't have a GM (Mchale) who screwed his own team. If you are going to build a team though, it is going to be much easier to build around KG than it is Dirk as KG is the complete package and Dirk is just a one way player.

[FireDavidKahn]

Oh Okay, well on that basis Pierce had no business winning the FMVP. Ray Allen had a much better offensive series in the 08 finals. I would probably have just given it to KG, but they went the offensive route and gave it to the guy who scored slightly more on a much shittier efficiency. Either Ray or KG should have been FMVP, not Pierce.

As far as the the topic goes, it was definitely KG who led the Celtics to a championship. He was by far the best player on the team. Dirk was more successful as a lead dog than KG...yeah and Dirk had better teams and didn't have a GM (Mchale) who screwed his own team. If you are going to build a team though, it is going to be much easier to build around KG than it is Dirk as KG is the complete package and Dirk is just a one way player.
Can you even imagine how many rings Minny would of won if we had kept Ray Allen? A prime KG and prime Allen together = GG league.

[Harison]

Considering OP is a Dirk's fanatic and hates KG, it automatically invalidates his opinion.

Oh, and in case anyone missed, KG already won the ring as a "lead dog", post-prime. Dirk doesnt have more rings either, while having much better teams through most of his career.

[StateOfMind12]

It is because Garnett didn't have as good of teams as Dirk did when he was the lead dog.

When Garnett had a good team such as 2004 and 2008, he made it to the WCF and won the title. The only reason why they only made it to the WCF in 2004 is because Sam Cassell and Troy Hudson, the starting PG and the backup PG of the team were both injured in the WCF. Garnett had to play PG himself in that series. If those two were healthy in that series, Twolves could have very well reached the Finals and maybe even win it and we would be talking about two championships for KG here.

It is too bad that injuries ultimately held KG back from winning more than one title. It held him back in 2004 and it held him back after 2008 when he got injured himself and was never the same.

[D.J.]

Most people ignore the fact that Minny's FO was not much better than the current Knicks' FO. Not to mention the Joe Smith fiasco. The one time KG had even decent help, Minny was two wins from making the Finals and having home court in it. Cassell getting hurt cost the T-Wolves a Finals appearance and possibly a title.

And KG never lost in the first round with a 67 win team.

[bmulls]

Most people ignore the fact that Minny's FO was not much better than the current Knicks' FO. Not to mention the Joe Smith fiasco. The one time KG had even decent help, Minny was two wins from making the Finals and having home court in it. Cassell getting hurt cost the T-Wolves a Finals appearance and possibly a title.

And KG never lost in the first round with a 67 win team.

KG never had a 67 win team, stupid argument :lol

[D.J.]

KG never had a 67 win team, stupid argument :lol


He had a 66 win team in Boston.

[StateOfMind12]

He had a 66 win team in Boston.
:oldlol: Iced....


I forgot to add that KG has never lost as the favorite either. Every time KG was suppose to win a playoff series, he got the job done. Dirk? We all heard of what happened in the 1st round in 2007 and the Finals of 2006.

[Cone]

Ever since Dirk was the #1 option he has always had mediocre teams at best. Don't act like he's been playing with ****ing Ray Allen and Paul Pierce..

Dirk's 06-07 team was trash, it's a miracle that they got 67 wins..

KG got carried enough times with boston.. dirk, never.

prime KG actually missed the playoffs multiple times.. sad.

[Kblaze8855]

Id love it if we had ISH in the 60s and some archives to see the same kind of idiots who dont believe KG led the 08 Celtics to a rin calling Bill Russell a Robin type because Sam Jones or Hondo led the teams in scoring. And even that really wouldnt be the same because KG actually led the 08 Celtics in playoff scoring. And 4th quarter scoring. While being the DPOY..on a defense first team....and leading rebounder...and the on the floor and in practice leader from an emotional standpoint.

Really....picture this happening with anyone else...

The leagues DPOY....the guy 3rd in MVP voting...all NBA first team...leads his team in playoff scoring/rebounds as well...puts up like 27/16 totally dominating the closeout game...clear best player for the teams in the playoffs.

Doesnt win finals MVP because someone else had a 38 point loss in the series.

Hes then said to not be the teams leader/best player/whatever.

The DPOY...is also his teams leading scorer in the playoffs...and has the least off games...the only one of the big 3 who played better in the playoffs than regular season.

But he didnt lead his team to a title.

Its just a joke. If KGs first half destruction of the Lakers in game 6 to open up the lead wasnt a snatch the ring "This is MY time!" moment nothing ever was.


He led that team. Period. The other players were calling him the best leader they ever saw from day one. Doc pretty much said he changed everything about their lockerroom. KGs intensity and defense meant more to that team than anything. And he led them in scoring too...

But he didnt lead the team......

[SilkkTheShocker]

Most people ignore the fact that Minny's FO was not much better than the current Knicks' FO. Not to mention the Joe Smith fiasco. The one time KG had even decent help, Minny was two wins from making the Finals and having home court in it. Cassell getting hurt cost the T-Wolves a Finals appearance and possibly a title.

And KG never lost in the first round with a 67 win team.


Did you see the roster of that team Dirk to 67 wins? Until the 09 Cavs, they were easily the worst 67 win team ever in terms of talent. They choked, no one is denying that. But KG was too busy not making the playoffs in his prime at the time. With Dirk you are guaranteed 50 wins and playoff every season. (not counting this strike-shotened season). People talk about how great KG is as a 2 way player, but the man missed the playoffs in his prime 3 times in a row. No way does that happen with Dirk.

[SilkkTheShocker]

And why do people keep saying Dirk's teams were built to suit him? Until 2010, that wasn't even close to true. Did people not notice Raef Lafrentz, Shawn Bradley, and Calvin Booth starting at center next to Dirk? Or how about when they tried to use a frontcourt of Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, and Dirk? Yea, thats really building around Dirk to his strengths :oldlol: Did people forget before Marion and Butler showed up the Mavs were regularly destroyed by opposing wing players and got not post scoring from their centers? Dirk's teams were far from stacked.

[kentatm]

:oldlol: Iced....


I forgot to add that KG has never lost as the favorite either. Every time KG was suppose to win a playoff series, he got the job done. Dirk? We all heard of what happened in the 1st round in 2007 and the Finals of 2006.

The Mavs weren't a clear cut favorite going into the 06 Finals at all.


and any person who actually paid attention to basketball knew Avery made a mistake of massive proportions when he foolishly gave up the chance to knock GS out of the playoffs the last day of the season that year. It wasn't an upset at all regardless of the seeding.

GS had been murdering Dallas for quite a while at that point. It was something like 3 seasons running they had the Mavs number. They were perfectly constructed to take out Dallas but Avery in his hubris thought he could out coach the guy who taught him how to coach and helped create Dirk. On top of that, the dumbass decided to dump the one single advantage they had, their size at the C spot, and placed Devean f-ing George at C to try and match the run and gun style of GS even though they had not played that type of ball for nearly two years and didn't have the PGs to do it.

[noosaman]

Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.

Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?

Absolutely. He won a ring with a bunch of 3rd and 4th options.

[noosaman]

lol using people's logic there then Lefraud has choked 3 times already (boston, mavs, and magic) to dirk's 2, so lefraud is worse than both dirk and garnett

[Rubio2Gasol]

And why do people keep saying Dirk's teams were built to suit him? Until 2010, that wasn't even close to true. Did people not notice Raef Lafrentz, Shawn Bradley, and Calvin Booth starting at center next to Dirk? Or how about when they tried to use a frontcourt of Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, and Dirk? Yea, thats really building around Dirk to his strengths :oldlol: Did people forget before Marion and Butler showed up the Mavs were regularly destroyed by opposing wing players and got not post scoring from their centers? Dirk's teams were far from stacked.

Lmao, Dampier was a great lowpost defender

Harris and Howard were one of the best defensive combos in the league....Howard was actually a pretty amazing player in his day, Howard is actually a criminally underrated player.

Stack was the one particularly poor fit.

[SilkkTheShocker]

lol using people's logic there then Lefraud has choked 3 times already (boston, mavs, and magic) to dirk's 2, so lefraud is worse than both dirk and garnett


Lebron didn't choke in 09. In the 2011 Finals? Most definitely. And he was awful in game 5 of the 2010 playoffs. Dirk is one of my favorite players, but he definitely choked in 07. Evev if his team wasn't as good as people pumped them up to be.

[noosaman]

Lmao, Dampier was a great lowpost defender

Harris and Howard were one of the best defensive combos in the league....Howard was actually a pretty amazing player in his day, Howard is actually a criminally underrated player.

Stack was the one particularly poor fit.

Dampier guarded guys like duncan and shaq well but that 04-05 postseason was comical. He couldn't stay on the floor for more than 2 minutes without picking up fouls. He eventually got replaced by Diop thats right Diop in big moments in 05-06, thats how bad he was.

Howard was good but had horrendous court vision and was selfish on offense.

They were still worse than Cassell and Sprewell who Garnett worked with.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lmao, Dampier was a great lowpost defender

Harris and Howard were one of the best defensive combos in the league....Howard was actually a pretty amazing player in his day, Howard is actually a criminally underrated player.

Stack was the one particularly poor fit.


Dirk wasn't a fan of playing with Harris. Plus, Harris got his handed by anyone he was guarding during the 07 playoffs. Howard was a good player, but calling him "amazing" is a little much. Injuries limited him over the years. Stackhouse was wasn't a bad fit. They could have used a slasher over him, but he was a better fit than Jamison.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Dirk wasn't a fan of playing with Harris. Plus, Harris got his handed by anyone he was guarding during the 07 playoffs. Howard was a good player, but calling him "amazing" is a little much. Injuries limited him over the years. Stackhouse was wasn't a bad fit. They could have used a slasher over him, but he was a better fit than Jamison.


You think KG was a fan of playing with Sprewell and Sczerbiak? :roll:

That was a pretty good team man , anyway you cut it and it was accommodating to Dirk for the most part.

Better than KG's definitely, Cassel was a reliable player, but the rest of those guys just had a very bad team dynamic, KG was feuding with Wally and Sprewell was...well Sprewell.

[Legends66NBA7]

I asked this question in the Top 11-20 players thread as well... Which Maverick teams had the most talent during the 2000's ? Also, which years were they considered the clear cut best ?

[Stuckey]

i dont care, i'm taking KG any day

[D.J.]

Did you see the roster of that team Dirk to 67 wins? Until the 09 Cavs, they were easily the worst 67 win team ever in terms of talent. They choked, no one is denying that. But KG was too busy not making the playoffs in his prime at the time. With Dirk you are guaranteed 50 wins and playoff every season. (not counting this strike-shotened season). People talk about how great KG is as a 2 way player, but the man missed the playoffs in his prime 3 times in a row. No way does that happen with Dirk.


That Dallas team in '07 lost just 15 times all year. There's no excuse to lose in round 1 to a team that struggled to stay over .500 and went 16-5 in their final 21 just to make the playoffs. At least if Dirk or another top player went down, you could see why they would lose. They didn't lose because of injuries. They lost because they were badly outcoached and Dirk not stepping up.

As for KG, tell me how he should be blamed for lack of team success in Minnesota? Cassell missed 23 games in '05 and Sprewell was utter shit, yet Minny still won 44 games. In '06, guys were traded and Cassell and Sprewell were both gone. In '07, the best players after KG were Ricky Davis and Mark Blount. There's a reason Minny hasn't cracked 30 wins since KG left. Dirk's supporting cast was way better than KG's. Dirk had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Shawn Bradley. He had scorers, jump shooting big men, elite shot blocking, a very good point guard, respectable bench players. Outside of Cassell and Sprewell, who did KG have? Wally Szczerbiak, Ricky Davis, Troy Hudson, Trenton Hassell, Michael Olowokandi. Very good supporting cast. :rolleyes:

[DMAVS41]

Probably not. Why would they? That Mavs team was built around Dirk's strengths.

Would Dirk be able to take Minny's supporting cast in '04 to the Conference finals? With guys like Sprewell, Hudson, Cassell and Szczerbiak?

Not sure why not. He took a team without much in 06 all the way to the finals...going through the Spurs in the midst of only losing 1 series in three years.

[DMAVS41]

That Dallas team in '07 lost just 15 times all year. There's no excuse to lose in round 1 to a team that struggled to stay over .500 and went 16-5 in their final 21 just to make the playoffs. At least if Dirk or another top player went down, you could see why they would lose. They didn't lose because of injuries. They lost because they were badly outcoached and Dirk not stepping up.

As for KG, tell me how he should be blamed for lack of team success in Minnesota? Cassell missed 23 games in '05 and Sprewell was utter shit, yet Minny still won 44 games. In '06, guys were traded and Cassell and Sprewell were both gone. In '07, the best players after KG were Ricky Davis and Mark Blount. There's a reason Minny hasn't cracked 30 wins since KG left. Dirk's supporting cast was way better than KG's. Dirk had Steve Nash, Michael Finley, Nick Van Exel, Antoine Walker, Antawn Jamison, Shawn Bradley. He had scorers, jump shooting big men, elite shot blocking, a very good point guard, respectable bench players. Outside of Cassell and Sprewell, who did KG have? Wally Szczerbiak, Ricky Davis, Troy Hudson, Trenton Hassell, Michael Olowokandi. Very good supporting cast. :rolleyes:

Most of this is true, but you can't discount how much better the Warriors were than their record. Nearly all of their good players were hurt for big chunks of the year....and they were all healthy and on fire going into the playoffs.

Combine that with the style they played and the coaching of Nellie vs Avery...and you had the perfect storm.

That does not excuse Dirk from playing like ass, but between the matchups and Avery losing his ****ing mind...it honestly wasn't a huge shock to a lot of Mavs fans. I was furious when we drew the Warriors in the first round.

I also think you under-rate the 04 team for the Wolves. Not great or anything, but not bad. A lot like the 07 Mavs. A team that had no business winning 67 games...that was absurd.

[D.J.]

Most of this is true, but you can't discount how much better the Warriors were than their record. Nearly all of their good players were hurt for big chunks of the year....and they were all healthy and on fire going into the playoffs.


They weren't that much better than their record indicated. They were probably a 45 win team if everyone was healthy, but their first round series win was largely because of Don Nelson and Avery Johnson not making any adjustments. Golden State got smacked around by Utah the next round, so they really weren't that good of a team.



Combine that with the style they played and the coaching of Nellie vs Avery...and you had the perfect storm.


But all that could have been avoided had Avery Johnson made adjustments. Could have been an easy five game series win.



That does not excuse Dirk from playing like ass, but between the matchups and Avery losing his ****ing mind...it honestly wasn't a huge shock to a lot of Mavs fans. I was furious when we drew the Warriors in the first round.


Granted 3 of their 15 losses were to GS, but the Mavs were still a 67 win team. Playoffs is a whole nother ball game.



I also think you under-rate the 04 team for the Wolves. Not great or anything, but not bad.


Not at all. I've praised that team numerous times and mentioned several times that was the only year in Minny that KG had any decent, consistent help. Sam Cassell's injury cost them the Western Conference and quite possibly a title.



A lot like the 07 Mavs. A team that had no business winning 67 games...that was absurd.


Maybe not 67 wins, but still 55-60 easily. The '07 Mavs were a deeper team.

[04mzwach]

And its not even close, really.
LOL @ your title. Typical troll title. More successful? Of course. That doesn't help Dirk top Garnett any day of any week and you know it.

[magnax1]

More successful in that he was much more fortunate through out his career. Even KG's best teams in minnesota were comparable to most of Dirk's worst.

[TheBigVeto]

Does anyone dispute that..?

Only racist and stupid people.

[SilkkTheShocker]

LOL @ your title. Typical troll title. More successful? Of course. That doesn't help Dirk top Garnett any day of any week and you know it.


Dirk >>>> KG

Like I said, give me the lead-dog.

[CJ Mustard]

Dirk >>>> KG

Like I said, give me the lead-dog.
Stop acting like you've seen KG in his prime. You started watching basketball in 2010 at the earliest.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Stop acting like you've seen KG in his prime. You started watching basketball in 2010 at the earliest.


I think you are still upset about your dogs.hit franchise trading Dirk for Robert Traylor.

[magictricked]

LOL @ your title. Typical troll title. More successful? Of course. That doesn't help Dirk top Garnett any day of any week and you know it.
At least he acknowledges his limitations. :lol

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Not sure why not. He took a team without much in 06 all the way to the finals...going through the Spurs in the midst of only losing 1 series in three years.

That Mavs team was #1 in offensive rating. They were much better than Minny in '04.

What the Wolves lose on defense they don't get much back on offense. Not sure why people forget KG in his prime was a monster offensively.

[CJ Mustard]

I think you are still upset about your dogs.hit franchise trading Dirk for Robert Traylor.
The Bucks didn't trade Dirk, they moved up to get Tractor Traylor. They were picking on behalf of the Mavs at #9. But you wouldn't know this because you weren't watching basketball back then.

[JellyBean]

Like heck Dirk was more successful as lead dog over KG!!! I will say they were even given what they were dealt with. Dirk had a team particular built around him. Each season Mark Cuban would spend $$$ trying to get the right parts around Dirk. KG did not have that option here in Minnesota. To me, I still rank KG over Dirk because KG was a better all-around player. Let Dirk try to guard the point guard, shooting guard, small forward, power forward, or a center, and then carry a team on the offensive end like KG had to do day in and day out. Puh-lease.

[Mach_3]

Dirk >>>> KG

Like I said, give me the lead-dog.

KG >>>>> Dirk

[Pointguard]

OP has a real thirst for the topic:

http://207.58.151.151/forum/showthread.php?t=271953



Duncan was more successful than Shaq and Karl Malone more successful than Barkley. Magic was more successful than Bird. If you go by playoff rounds and great franchise competition, Magic was the most successful guy in the modern era - moreso than Jordan.

Teams are built around certain players. You get guys to compliment your stars. Dallas is a good organization and they've done that throughout Dirk's career. Minny wasn't a good organization so they didn't build anything. KG had to be the many things that the team and organization wasn't. Dirk wasn't a multiple faceted player at anythime in his career. So if the GM doesn't get defense, rebounds, other shooters, leaders, step up guys in the playoffs, and setup guys his team can't win. Minny was never able to bring in those type of players at all - and the one time they did, their health gave away.

Dirk in a bad organization/coaches would more than likely be Alex English or Kiki Vandeweghe.

[bizil]

In terms of who I who want as an alpha dog type give me Dirk, even though KG was a very good-great scorer who I also consider an alpha dog. But I wouldn't put KG on Dirk's, Barkley, Petitt's, or Malone's level in those terms. Those four I feel put the foot on the gas more scoring than Timmy or KG. However KG and Timmy come up big in the huge moments and were known to average around 25 a night.

But in terms of who is flat out the better player, give me KG all day over Dirk. This is the case of the epic great scorer with an average to good all around game against the epic great all around player who's a very good to great scorer. In this partiucular case, I go for the epic great all around player. At times though I will go for the epic great scorer, it depends on the comparison.

[Freedom Kid7]

...I can't really disagree with OP here. To be fair though, KG didn't have a lot of help in Minnesota, where Dirk tended to have better teams.

[Harison]

Dirk >>>> KG

Like I said, give me the lead-dog.

This your point was debunked MANY times, and yet you keep repeating it and remaking the same thread over and over again. Its obvious you are just a troll, hence welcome to the ignore list :rolleyes:

[ILLsmak]

Dirk is the more valuable piece. You can pick up a few role players to give you what KG would give you, but Dirk is special.

Dirk is one of the few players who can be a true number 1 option on a winning team. There aren't many in NBA history, most of them are top players.

You are just nit picking if you talk about Dirks lack of D or rebounding, such things are easily picked up (as you saw by guys like Marion and Chandler who, while good, were nowhere near all-star level impact.)

-Smak

[RIP CITY]

Dirk played on, at minimum, 5 teams that had better supporting casts than Garnett's best Minnesota team in 2004 (during the time frame KG was on MIN, not during the Boston years obviously). Just think about how long Dirk got to play with Nash and Finley compared to how many years KG got to play with the similar duo of Sprewell and Cassell. Every other year the best player on the team outside of KG was Wally Szczerbiak. Dirk also had one season where he played with Antawn Jamison and Antoine Walker in their primes along with Nash/Finley still on the team. The minute KG had a great roster around him he won a Championship and has had tons of Playoff success since being on that team. He was the best player on the Celtics during that Championship season as well (arguably his entire time with Boston if you consider how important his defense is to that teams success). If Garnett had played his Minnesota years with the type of talent that Dirk had in Dallas during the same period, he would be even further up the list of All-Time greats because he would have undoubtedly had more Playoff appearances and Playoff success than he did in Minny, and debatably another Championship or two (considering those Dirk/Nash/Finley Dallas teams weakness was defense and he was capable of transforming an entire defense by himself).

Garnett was the better post scorer, rebounder, shot blocker, post defender, perimeter defender, passer, leader and was a much more physical player. Dirk is a great scorer but he doesn't do anything else on the court better than above average and most things he does poorly outside of scoring. Dirk was also always one of the worst defensive players on his team and always one of the two worst defensive starters on his team (the worst ever since Nash left). Dirk has never carried the Mavericks team, he has carried their offense at times (he was always their best scorer but he didn't carry their offense alone when Nash/Finley were there) but their supporting casts have always carried him defensively. The main reason those Mavs team always lacked the defense to win is because Dirk was one of the worst defenders on the team, it falls on his shoulders as much as anyone for why that teams defense was never good enough to win it all. Players who truly carry their team are players that are the best player on both ends of the floor, like Garnett was on the 2008 Celtics team that won a Championship and every year of his career in Minnesota. KG was the "lead-dog" on the 2008 Celtics team that had Pierce and Allen on it, DPOY and best offensive player on the team in the Playoffs.

The only reason why this thread holds any water (which it doesn't really because KG was obviously the better overall player) is because Dirk played on better teams when KG was in Minnesota.

(Dirk was also 2 years younger, while playing 3 less seasons in the NBA and being closer to his prime than KG was in 2011, so saying that KG couldn't lead the same Mavs team to a title in 2011 is a retarded and worthless point to bring up. Not to mention KG probably actually could have led a similarly talented team to a Championship if it was built towards his talent like the Mavs were for Dirk.)