ISH Vote #5: Top 20 Players in the NBA

[RRR3]

Vote for the 5th best player in the NBA! First to 25 votes wins.



I had a lot of trouble deciding on this one. IMO, it's between Kobe, Wade and Russell Westbrook. D-Rose would be here if healthy, but he's not and may not play at all next year. Kobe is getting older and declining, and Wade appeared to be declining as well last year. If Wade comes back strong, he'll be in this spot, but I can't say for sure. Furthermore, Westbrook is still improving and is very young, so I'll give him the nod.


Voting results
Kobe Bryant-25
Dwyane Wade-11
Russell Westbrook-7
Derrick Rose-2
Rajon Rondo-1
Deron Williams-1
Air Bud-1 (deuce bigalow) :no:


Top 20 NBA Player as voted by ISH


http://hoopeduponline.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/chris_paul_clippers.jpg


1. LeBron James (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=273644)
2. Kevin Durant (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7651246#post7651246)
3. Dwight Howard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7651523#post7651523)
4. Chris Paul (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?p=7652665#post7652665)
5. Kobe Bryant

[Heavincent]

Kobe

[Faptastrophe]

Russell Westbrook.
But Kevin Love should be considered too.

[RRR3]

Westbrook.
But Kevin Love should be considered too.
I don't really see it for Love IDK :confusedshrug:

[chazzy]

Kobe

[Heavincent]

Wade's not even in the conversation. It's just between Kobe and Westbrook imo.

[AK47DR91]

GOATBrook should have been #4. Oh well, he's my vote for this round.

[crisoner]

Kobe...he should be 4 by the way.

[Snoop_Cat]

Wade was disappointing.

Kobe.

[FreezingTsmoove]

Westbrook one of the most unstoppable players in the NBA right now.

Kobe is definitely my next vote for #6 though

[BuGzBuNNy]

Wade's not even in the conversation. It's just between Kobe and Westbrook imo.
I agree. I'll take Bean but its close.

Kobe.

[longhornfan1234]

Wade.

[Ikill]

Wade

[Kurosawa0]

Derrick Rose

[Asiantastic]

Kobe.

[riseagainst]

colby

[PJR]

Wade. The most efficient guard this side of Jordan. :bowdown:

[christian1923]

Kobe.. Can't believe Dwight and Paul are ahead of him.

[TylerOO]

Westbrook

[longhornfan1234]

Kobe.. Can't believe Dwight and Paul are ahead of him.

More efficient, and better two-way players.

[Stern]

Rondo.

[Ikill]

Wade's not even in the conversation. It's just between Kobe and Westbrook imo.
per 36
Wade 24/5/5.3/1.8/1.4 56% ts 2.9 turnovers
Westbrook 24.1/4.6/5.6/1.7/0.3 54% ts 3.7 turnovers

Scored the same amount Wade was more efficient
Wade averaged more rebounds very close tho
Pretty much same amount of assists Westbrook averaged more turnovers
same amount of steals
Wade averaged more blocks
Wades the better defender

so pretty much he's better in every way

[EnoughSaid]

A healthy Wade all day! :bowdown:

[Rubio2Gasol]

Fine, no one here rates Rondo, Westbrook is better than Wade at this point.

Mark me down for Westbrook.

Also for those who is saying Wade is better, I understand Wade wasn't healthy, but Westbrook destoryed him, they were checking each other and he got torn up no two ways about it.

Westbrook is a guy who makes significant improvement each summer.

The way i see it no way Wade comes bac better than him.

[EnoughSaid]

per 36
Wade 24/5/5.3/1.8/1.4 56% ts 2.9 turnovers
Westbrook 24.1/4.6/5.6/1.7/0.3 54% ts 3.7 turnovers

Scored the same amount Wade was more efficient
Wade averaged more rebounds very close tho
Pretty much same amount of assists Westbrook averaged more turnovers
same amount of steals
Wade averaged more blocks
Wades the better defender

so pretty much he's better in every way

Heavincent is the biggest Wade hater on this site, so no point in listening to him.

[Heavincent]

per 36


Stopped reading there.

[Ikill]

Fine, no one here rates Rondo, Westbrook is better than Wade at this point.

Mark me down for Westbrook.
Wade is better than Westbrook in everyway

[longhornfan1234]

Fine, no one here rates Rondo, Westbrook is better than Wade at this point.

Mark me down for Westbrook.

Westbrook: 23.6 PPG/5.5 APG (3.6 TOV)/4.6 RPG/1.7 SPG/0.3 BPG/ @35.3 MPG, 19.2 FGA, 45.7% FG.

Wade: 22.1 PPG/4.6 APG (2.6 TOV) /4.8 RPG/1.7 SPG/1.3 BPG @ 33.2 MPG, 17.1 FGA, 49.7% FG.


Westbrook: 22.9 PER/ 48.1% eFG%/ 53.8% TS%/ .163 WS/48/ 108 ORtg/ 105 DRtg

Wade: 26.3 PER/ 50.6% eFG%/ 55.9% TS%/ .227 WS/48/ 112 ORtg/ 99 DRtg

Give me Wade.

[qrich]

Between Kobe, Wade & Rondo for me. Go with Kobe.

[EnoughSaid]

What people don't take into account is that Wade was injured the whole season, had limited playing time, not as many touches as Kobe, and went through the whole post season on ONE knee that he had to get drained TWICE. :facepalm And he still managed to put up a top 3 performance in the Playoffs. SMH.

[Ikill]

Stopped reading there.
they played pretty much the same amount of minutes so using per 36 is fine but it doesnt matter
Wade is more efficient while scoring similar amount
Wade averages less turnover with similar amount of assists
Wade averages more rebounds
Wade averages more blocks steals and plays better overall defense

An injured Wade was better than a healthy Westbrook this year

[Rubio2Gasol]

Westbrook: 23.6 PPG/5.5 APG (3.6 TOV)/4.6 RPG/1.7 SPG/0.3 BPG/ @35.3 MPG, 19.2 FGA, 45.7% FG.

Wade: 22.1 PPG/4.6 APG (2.6 TOV) /4.8 RPG/1.7 SPG/1.3 BPG @ 33.2 MPG, 17.1 FGA, 49.7% FG.


Westbrook: 22.9 PER/ 48.1% eFG%/ 53.8% TS%/ .163 WS/48/ 108 ORtg/ 105 DRtg

Wade: 26.3 PER/ 50.6% eFG%/ 55.9% TS%/ .227 WS/48/ 112 ORtg/ 99 DRtg

Give me Wade.


Wade is playing with Lebron lmao, Westbrook creates everything for OKC he collapses defenses better than anyone else in the league to be honest. And I disagree with the Wade plays better defense part as well, some of the defense I've seen from Westbrook in amazing, his transition defense in the finals :bowdown:

[Freedom Kid7]

Kobe.

[KOBE143]

Kobe.. Should have been 1.

[EnoughSaid]

Wade is playing with Lebron lmao, Westbrook creates everything for OKC he collapses defenses better than anyone else in the league to be honest. And I disagree with the Wade plays better defense part as well, some of the defense I've seen from Westbrook in amazing, his transition defense in the finals :bowdown:

EXACTLY. He doesn't have the ball in his hands as much, and isn't the number one option.

[longhornfan1234]

Wade is playing with Lebron lmao, Westbrook creates everything for OKC he collapses defenses better than anyone else in the league to be honest.


Westbrook plays right next to KD( 2nd best player on the planet). Defenses are more focused on KD. An injured Wade > healthy Westbrook.

[riseagainst]

EXACTLY. He doesn't have the ball in his hands as much, and isn't the number one option.

he's getting assisted/easy looks/easy points.

[Rubio2Gasol]

EXACTLY. He doesn't have the ball in his hands as much, and isn't the number one option.


He's also getting ridiculously easy buckets off simple cuts and he's getting very low defensive attention because people double off him.

[EnoughSaid]

Kobe.. Should have been 1.

:roll: COME ON NOW.

[chazzy]

What people don't take into account is that Wade was injured the whole season, had limited playing time, not as many touches as Kobe, and went through the whole post season on ONE knee that he had to get drained TWICE. :facepalm And he still managed to put up a top 3 performance in the Playoffs. SMH.
Where were these excuses in 2010 for Kobe? You are what you are and injuries are a part of how good you are in a season.

[EnoughSaid]

He's also getting ridiculously easy buckets off simple cuts and he's getting very low defensive attention because people double off him.

Wow. Did you watch the Celtics series at all? They constantly doubled Wade everytime he touched the ball, not allowing him to do anything. And that ended up being Miami's toughest series...

[Umad101]

Mamba

[Ikill]

he's getting assisted/easy looks/easy points.
Not really he gets just as much defensive attention as lebron does in the playoffs he got even more than him. What makes it worse is he cant just pound the ball to get his rhythm the way Kobe and Westbrook can.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Westbrook plays right next to KD( 2nd best player on the planet). Defenses are more focused on KD. An injured Wade > healthy Westbrook.

Defenses don't focus on KD unless he takes it into the post and even then his passing is subpar so Westbrooks cuts don't neccesarily equate to easy buckets.

Westbrook takes the defensive focus while KD runs the picks and gets good looks, Westbrook completely ahnialates teams defensive sets, just liek Lebron does .

[riseagainst]

Defenses don't focus on KD unless he takes it into the post and even then his passing is subpar so Westbrooks cuts don't neccesarily equate to easy buckets.

Westbrook takes the defensive focus while KD runs the picks and gets good looks, Westbrook completely ahnialates teams defensive sets, just liek Lebron does .

^
and people say the Thunder would be better without Westbrook. :lol

[Ikill]

Playing with Bynum/Gasol or Durant is much better to play with than Lebron if your a ball dominant player like Wade Westbrook or Kobe. Wade would be better if Lebron wasnt on his team so he could play his own game the way Westbrook and Kobe can.

[LongLiveTheKing]

D-Wade

[Ikill]

Where were these excuses in 2010 for Kobe? You are what you are and injuries are a part of how good you are in a season.
Westbrook and Kobe had better seasons because they played more games but an injured Wade is a better player than both.

[EnoughSaid]

Playing with Bynum/Gasol or Durant is much better to play with than Lebron if your a ball dominant player like Wade Westbrook or Kobe. Wade would be better if Lebron wasnt on his team so he could play his own game the way Westbrook and Kobe can.

Thank you. Wade and LeBron are so similar in play style it's hard for them to play off one each other. But they showed during the Pacers series that they are the best duo in basketball. :pimp:

[Ikill]

Kobe and Westbrook have no argument over an injured Wade this year

[NOHCP3]

Kobe Bryant. Aka stillgotitbe aka isobe

[Smoke117]

Wade.

[Ikill]

Wade was disappointing.

Kobe.
He was disappointing in comparison to himself Kobe was not cause he's old and still played good. That doesn't mean he was better

[Heavincent]

Kobe and Westbrook have no argument over an injured Wade this year

:roll: :roll:

Wade wasn't even top 10 this past season.

[Rainwound]

Westbrook

[Dictator]

wade over kobe and westbrook..............:biggums: :banghead: :hammerhead:

Is this real life? :biggums:

[RRR3]

:roll: :roll:

Wade wasn't even top 10 this past season.
The more you underrate Wade, the better you make LeBron look. Just saying:confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

The more you underrate Wade, the better you make LeBron look. Just saying:confusedshrug:

So? My Lebron hating days are over. He has earned my respect.

[RRR3]

wade over kobe and westbrook..............:biggums: :banghead: :hammerhead:

Is this real life? :biggums:
vote

[chazzy]

Wade's 2012 abilities apparently change between discussing him as part of Lebron's supporting cast and as an individual against other guards. Wade and Kobe have been pretty damn close over the years but this year was the most clear to me since Kobe in 08.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kobe and Westbrook have no argument over an injured Wade this year


Not sure if you realize this, but Kobe is as banged up a dude as there is the game.

Arthritis, about 18 different fractures and breaks on both his hands , what are you talking about lmao.

[AlonzoGOAT]

Wade

[Ikill]

Not sure if you realize this, but Kobe is as banged up a dude as there is the game.

Arthritis, about 18 different fractures and breaks on both his hands , what are you talking about lmao.
okay injured 2012 Wade>injured old 2012 Kobe

[Dictator]

The more you underrate Wade, the better you make LeBron look. Just saying:confusedshrug:


Illogical. also Kobe.

[Harison]

Le Kobe.

[Ikill]

this is asking for player or not season so anyone that votes Westbrook or Kobe over Wade is a dumbass.

[Ikill]

unless they give some legit reasons which no one has yet

[riseagainst]

this is asking for player or not season so anyone that votes Westbrook or Kobe over Wade is a dumbass.

outrageous. :eek:

[BlackVVaves]

Between Kobe, Wade & Rondo for me. Go with Kobe.

Same here. Also add Westbrook to the mix.

People saying Kobe should be before Dwight or CP3 are delusional. We are not talking all time, we are talking right now, at each's moment in their careers.

Dwight and CP3 simply have more of an impact on a game that Kobe does right now. Both are better defensively, and both are much more efficient players.

So no, Kobe does not belong as the #3 or #4 player. But he is better than Wade, who is also declining, and Rondo. I think based on performances last season, Westbrook is the closest competitor for that #5 spot, but I give the edge to Kobe.

So, put me down for Kobe for #5. And to the Heat fans shrieking "Wade was playing on one leg, he was injured, blah blah blah!" Yea. As if Wade was the only player playing with injury. Kobe should have had surgery on his wrist at the cusp of the season, but opted to play the season with it, along with his other injuries as he typically does. And he did that leading the league in scoring until the last week of the season. So cut it out.

[Rainwound]

this is asking for player or not season so anyone that votes Westbrook or Kobe over Wade is a dumbass.
Calm down, take a deep breath, and type slowly so we can actually understand you.

[RRR3]

Damn thought this would be closer. Bean running away with it though

[Ikill]

Same here. Also add Westbrook to the mix.

People saying Kobe should be before Dwight or CP3 are delusional. We are not talking all time, we are talking right now, at each's moment in their careers.

Dwight and CP3 simply have more of an impact on a game that Kobe does right now. Both are better defensively, and both are much more efficient players.

So no, Kobe does not belong as the #3 or #4 player. But he is better than Wade, who is also declining, and Rondo. I think based on performances last season, Westbrook is the closest competitor for that #5 spot, but I give the edge to Kobe.

So, put me down for Kobe for #5. And to the Heat fans shrieking "Wade was playing on one leg, he was injured, blah blah blah!" Yea. As if Wade was the only player playing with injury. Kobe should have had surgery on his wrist at the cusp of the season, but opted to play the season with it, along with his other injuries as he typically does. And he did that leading the league in scoring until the last week of the season. So cut it out.
nope just injured

[Ikill]

Calm down, take a deep breath, and type slowly so we can actually understand you.
i rather not

[Heavincent]

Damn thought this would be closer. Bean running away with it though

Kobe was second in votes for #4, so this was expected.

Westbrook should be getting more votes than Wade though.

[qrich]

nope just injured

I guess Kobe isn't slowing down and is just injured, in which case, Kobe's peak >>>>>>> Wade's peak.

[riseagainst]

nope just injured

he's declining because of his injury. So YES he's declining. :facepalm

[chazzy]

i rather not
Commas my friend, commas.

[Dictator]

Didn't watch the clips that much, but what about Blake???

Blake: 21 11 3 550 fg%
Playoffs: 19 7 3 50%

Paul: 20 9 4 478 fg%
playoffs: 18 5 8 427fg%

[RRR3]

Kobe was second in votes for #4, so this was expected.

Westbrook should be getting more votes than Wade though.
Maybe, voting isn't always consistently the same posters, at least not so far.

[Ikill]

Kobe was second in votes for #4, so this was expected.

Westbrook should be getting more votes than Wade though.
tell us why dumbass

[RRR3]

Didn't watch the clips that much, but what about Blake???

Blake: 21 11 3 550 fg%
Paul: 20 9 4 478 fg%
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[Ikill]

Not sure if you realize this, but Kobe is as banged up a dude as there is the game.

Arthritis, about 18 different fractures and breaks on both his hands , what are you talking about lmao.
i guess he was declining in 08 too :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

tell us why dumbass

dude why are you so worked up? Relax, stop calling people names.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Steve Nash

[qrich]

Didn't watch the clips that much, but what about Blake???

Blake: 21 11 3 550 fg%
Paul: 20 9 4 478 fg%

7-15 range is about where he belongs, probably more in the 10-12 but either one is fine by me.



Steve Nash

Why am I not surprised by this. Started an agenda-driven one and now coming in here with BS.

[KG215]

Not 100% sure what to base this on. The top 4 for me was pretty easy, but at this point it's going to get very tough and even more subjective. If we're basing it on a combination of the 2011-2012 season and what we think they will be next season then I'd go with both Wade and Westbrook over Kobe. If we're basing it on just one of those, though it gets tougher. If I assume Wade comes back close to 100% next season, despite being 31, I would rank him ahead of both Kobe and Westbrook, but I can't do that in confidence. But if Westbrook continues at his current career progression rate, then he very well may be better than both Kobe and Wade next season.

Meh...I don't know, I guess I'll go with Kobe. I think Kobe/Wade/Westbrook are all interchangeable at 5-6-7,, as there's really not a big gap between the three right now in my opinion.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wade
L:oldlol:L

[RRR3]

Steve Nash
Gah damn it, stop trolling my threads. Just vote for Kobe, IK you want to, and he's in the lead anyways. Speeds things up.

[Ikill]

I guess Kobe isn't slowing down and is just injured, in which case, Kobe's peak >>>>>>> Wade's peak.
Wade came off a great season in 2011 and had no injury concerns for 3 years Kobe wasnt

[riseagainst]

i guess he was declining in 08 too :confusedshrug:

but his numbers and performances didn't decline the way Wade did.

[Heavincent]

tell us why dumbass

Quicker and more explosive, much better shooter, better defender, and superior playmaker.

Westbrook is just much more dangerous. You can feel his presence more than you can with Wade.

[Dictator]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Let me guess, D?

[EnoughSaid]

Well when Kobe wins this round, the Kobe homers will all start voting for Westbrook. :facepalm

[RRR3]

Let me guess, D?
That and he's not nearly as good as his stats indicate

[Ikill]

dude why are you so worked up? Relax, stop calling people names.
because no one has actually given any legit reasons why Westbrook or Kobe are better

[Heavincent]

because no one has actually given any legit reasons why Westbrook or Kobe are better

I just did buddy.

[RRR3]

Quicker and more explosive, much better shooter, better defender, and superior playmaker.

Westbrook is just much more dangerous. You can feel his presence more than you can with Wade.
:no:

[Ikill]

Quicker and more explosive, much better shooter, better defender, and superior playmaker.

Westbrook is just much more dangerous. You can feel his presence more than you can with Wade.
It doesnt matter if he's more athletic he still didn't put up better stats and no he's not a better defender or playmaker than Wade.

[Dictator]

That and he's not nearly as good as his stats indicate

Was cp3 really more impactful than kobe? playoff kobe dropped 30 5 4 on a higher fg% then cp3, although I didn't watch the clips really so.....

[KG215]

because no one has actually given any legit reasons why Westbrook or Kobe are better

Would it matter if they did? You've got your mind made up and don't seem very willing to listen. Besides, whatever reasons someone comes up with is going to be subjective and opinion based. The stats between the three are all too close to be able to say one is clearly better than the other three so, after that, all anyone has to lean on is opinion based statements on why they think one is the better of the three.

[StateOfMind12]

I would vote for Derrick Rose but it's obvious that it wouldn't mean much considering how only one person has voted him so far in this thread.

I'll vote for Kobe Bryant then to speed up the process and because Kobe is right next to Rose to me anyways.

[Ikill]

but his numbers and performances didn't decline the way Wade did.
i quoted the wrong thing

[Deuce Bigalow]

Gah damn it, stop trolling my threads. Just vote for Kobe, IK you want to, and he's in the lead anyways. Speeds things up.
Kobe belongs in the 18-20 spot like I mentioned before. Meanwhile Steve Nash is the 2nd greatest PG ever.

[Heavincent]

:no:

Westbrook is an underrated defender. His on ball defense is great and he makes a lot of plays on D.

Don't see how Wade is a better playmaker.

[Ikill]

he's declining because of his injury. So YES he's declining. :facepalm
I guess he was declining in 08 too :confusedshrug:

[riseagainst]

Kobe belongs in the 18-20 spot like I mentioned before. Meanwhile Steve Nash is the 2nd greatest PG ever.

Kobe's overrated. borderline top 30 player all time. career 45% fg what a joke this chucker is.

[Ikill]

Westbrook is an underrated defender. His on ball defense is great and he makes a lot of big plays on D.

Don't see how Wade is a better playmaker.
same amount of assists less turnovers

[Vertical-24]

Kobe and its not close

[Deuce Bigalow]

Didn't watch the clips that much, but what about Blake???

Blake: 21 11 3 550 fg%
Playoffs: 19 7 3 50%

Paul: 20 9 4 478 fg%
playoffs: 18 5 8 427fg%
That is like comparing Amare to Nash

'05 Playoffs
Amare: 30-10-1-54%
Nash: 24-5-11-52%

[Ikill]

Kobe and its not close
:oldlol:

[Heavincent]

It doesnt matter if he's more athletic he still didn't put up better stats and no he's not a better defender or playmaker than Wade.

Yes he did :confusedshrug:

Westbrook: 24/6/5 on 46%
Wade: 22/5/5 on 50%

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's overrated. borderline top 30 player all time. career 45% fg what a joke this chucker is.
Agreed.
Shaq and Pau carried him to his rings. The guy can't win by himself lol 1st round exit without them.

[BlackVVaves]

this is asking for player or not season so anyone that votes Westbrook or Kobe over Wade is a dumbass.

Yea. Right.

The purpose of this series of threads is to determine the top players in the NBA right now. Logic and rational thought processes will heavily take into consideration the preceding playoffs and season to help depict this. You can't just say "well if player X was healthy." No. It's been clearly outlined that that's not how voting should be outlined, hence Rose will be much lower on people's list right now.

You also can't say "if player X didn't have to play with player Y and player Z his numbers would be better." I don't understand why posters always reach for straws, ranking players in many threads like these based off hypotheticals and capabilities.

You are assessed based off production, plain and simple. Someone could say "if Kobe didn't take a small chunk of his shots at the end of an expiring shot clock because his teammates just toss him the ball as a bailout tactic when a play is broken." And, it could or would be true.

But it still wouldn't take away the facts, which is that Kobe was not efficient last year. Point blank simple. Same with Wade's ineffectiveness during the year. Being off the court as often as he was, playing subpar as often as he was. Kobe completely embarassed Wade after he injured Kobe's nose, or does that not fit your agenda so you dismiss it? Both injured, declining players who happen to be the best shooting guards in the game. How much closer can you get in terms of 1 v 1?

You are ranking player's based off recent production, and where they are right now in their games. Kobe has been the better player of the two, and so stating he is #5 isn't what a "dumbass" would do. It's what a logical individual would do.

[Ikill]

Yea. Right.

The purpose of this series of threads is to determine the top players in the NBA right now. Logic and rational thought processes will heavily take into consideration the preceding playoffs and season to help depict this. You can't just say "well if player X was healthy." No. It's been clearly outlined that that's not how voting should be outlined, hence Rose will be much lower on people's list right now.

You also can't say "if player X didn't have to play with player Y and player Z his numbers would be better." I don't understand why posters always reach for straws, ranking players in many threads like these based off hypotheticals and capabilities.

You are assessed based off production, plain and simple. Someone could say "if Kobe didn't take a small chunk of his shots at the end of an expiring shot clock because his teammates just toss him the ball as a bailout tactic when a play is broken." And, it could or would be true.

But it still wouldn't take away the facts, which is that Kobe was not efficient last year. Point blank simple. Same with Wade's ineffectiveness during the year. Being off the court as often as he was, playing subpar as often as he was. Kobe completely embarassed Wade after he injured Kobe's nose, or does that not fit your agenda so you dismiss it? Both injured, declining players who happen to be the best shooting guards in the game. How much closer can you get in terms of 1 v 1?

You are ranking player's based off recent production, and where they are right now in their games. Kobe has been the better player of the two, and so stating he is #5 isn't what a "dumbass" would do. It's what a logical individual would do.
this is exactly what i did with my earlier posts

[MJ23forever]

Bryant.

[Rainwound]

Yea. Right.

The purpose of this series of threads is to determine the top players in the NBA right now. Logic and rational thought processes will heavily take into consideration the preceding playoffs and season to help depict this. You can't just say "well if player X was healthy." No. It's been clearly outlined that that's not how voting should be outlined, hence Rose will be much lower on people's list right now.

You also can't say "if player X didn't have to play with player Y and player Z his numbers would be better." I don't understand why posters always reach for straws, ranking players in many threads like these based off hypotheticals and capabilities.

You are assessed based off production, plain and simple. Someone could say "if Kobe didn't take a small chunk of his shots at the end of an expiring shot clock because his teammates just toss him the ball as a bailout tactic when a play is broken." And, it could or would be true.

But it still wouldn't take away the facts, which is that Kobe was not efficient last year. Point blank simple. Same with Wade's ineffectiveness during the year. Being off the court as often as he was, playing subpar as often as he was. Kobe completely embarassed Wade after he injured Kobe's nose, or does that not fit your agenda so you dismiss it? Both injured, declining players who happen to be the best shooting guards in the game. How much closer can you get in terms of 1 v 1?

You are ranking player's based off recent production, and where they are right now in their games. Kobe has been the better player of the two, and so stating he is #5 isn't what a "dumbass" would do. It's what a logical individual would do.
Repped. But you're going to make his weak mind explode by actually presenting a logical, well thought out argument :lol

[Ikill]

per 36
Wade 24/5/5.3/1.8/1.4 56% ts 2.9 turnovers
Westbrook 24.1/4.6/5.6/1.7/0.3 54% ts 3.7 turnovers

Scored the same amount Wade was more efficient
Wade averaged more rebounds very close tho
Pretty much same amount of assists Westbrook averaged more turnovers
same amount of steals
Wade averaged more blocks
Wades the better defender

so pretty much he's better in every way
look

[Ikill]

Yes he did :confusedshrug:

Westbrook: 24/6/5 on 46%
Wade: 22/5/5 on 50%
:facepalm Wade scored more efficiently while scoring a similar amount, less turnovers similar amount of assists, more rebounds, blocks, and steals

[Ikill]

Yea. Right.

The purpose of this series of threads is to determine the top players in the NBA right now. Logic and rational thought processes will heavily take into consideration the preceding playoffs and season to help depict this. You can't just say "well if player X was healthy." No. It's been clearly outlined that that's not how voting should be outlined, hence Rose will be much lower on people's list right now.

You also can't say "if player X didn't have to play with player Y and player Z his numbers would be better." I don't understand why posters always reach for straws, ranking players in many threads like these based off hypotheticals and capabilities.

You are assessed based off production, plain and simple. Someone could say "if Kobe didn't take a small chunk of his shots at the end of an expiring shot clock because his teammates just toss him the ball as a bailout tactic when a play is broken." And, it could or would be true.

But it still wouldn't take away the facts, which is that Kobe was not efficient last year. Point blank simple. Same with Wade's ineffectiveness during the year. Being off the court as often as he was, playing subpar as often as he was. Kobe completely embarassed Wade after he injured Kobe's nose, or does that not fit your agenda so you dismiss it? Both injured, declining players who happen to be the best shooting guards in the game. How much closer can you get in terms of 1 v 1?

You are ranking player's based off recent production, and where they are right now in their games. Kobe has been the better player of the two, and so stating he is #5 isn't what a "dumbass" would do. It's what a logical individual would do.
I never said if Wade was healthy he would be better i said an injured Wade still put up better stats. One game is only one game doesnt prove much

[Ikill]

Repped. But you're going to make his weak mind explode by actually presenting a logical, well thought out argument :lol
He didnt prove shit

[Vertical-24]

:oldlol:

Kobe was better than Wade this season.

Point. Blank. Period.

[Dictator]

I never said if Wade was healthy he would be better i said an injured Wade still put up better stats. One game is only one game doesnt prove much

Injured wade was better than kobe? notsureifseriousbe?

[Ikill]

I do think Wade Kobe and Westbrook but Wade was still better than them in every single way. Westbrook and Kobe clearly had the more impressive seasons overall but Wade is still a better player. A lot of people are underrating Wade

[Ikill]

Kobe was better than Wade this season.

Point. Blank. Period.
Wade is more efficient while scoring similar amount
Wade averages less turnover with similar amount of assists
Wade averages more rebounds
Wade averages more blocks steals and plays better overall defense

[IGotACoolStory]

Westbrook

[PJR]

Both Bryant and Westbrook finished as the top two leaders in Usage percentage in last years regular season, Wade played primarily off the ball. And played career low minutes.

If they didn't have better core numbers, it would've been embarrassing. Wade was still a more efficient scorer than both, despite the balky knee. :oldlol:

[Story Up]

Kobe, then Rondo.
LOL at RW, how did he all the sudden become so overrated. 7th is Wade easily. Then maybe 2-3 guys before I consider Westbrook.

[riseagainst]

Kobe, then Rondo.
LOL at RW, how did he all the sudden become so overrated. 7th is Wade easily. Then maybe 2-3 guys before I consider Westbrook.

repped. :cheers: I'm voting for rondo next round.

[fpliii]

Wade

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wade
over Nash? I am shocked fpliii

[chips93]

LOL at RW, how did he all the sudden become so overrated?

by balling out of his mind, when it mattered most

[Deuce Bigalow]

Voting results
Kobe Bryant-19
Dwyane Wade-8
Russell Westbrook-6
Derrick Rose-1
Rajon Rondo-1
Air Bud-1 (deuce bigalow) :no:

:oldlol:

[EnoughSaid]

In my eyes Wade does so much more for a team that Kobe. A better defender, playmaker, shotblocker, and is much more efficient. Come on now. 43%? :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

In my eyes Wade does so much more for a team that Kobe. A better defender, playmaker, shotblocker, and is much more efficient. Come on now. 43%? :facepalm
2012 Playoffs
Kobe: 30-5-4 53 TS%
Wade: 23-5-4 53 TS%

[BlackVVaves]

I do think Wade Kobe and Westbrook but Wade was still better than them in every single way. Westbrook and Kobe clearly had the more impressive seasons overall but Wade is still a better player. A lot of people are underrating Wade

In the preceding page, you claimed Wade "put up better stats."

Which is hilariously wrong :oldlol:

So, if I were to be a betting man, I'd assume you realized this, and before someone like myself ousted you with each player's stats - their REAL stats, not that PER 36 nonsense that is holds no relevance when comparing players who play close enough to 36 minutes a game to use their ACTUAL stats - you backtracked and stated the aforementioned quote.

"Kobe and Westbrook clearly had the more impressive seasons overall."

But wait! I thought in the last page you said you were using the most recent production to assess the player's rankings? :oldlol:

You started this thread calling other people dumbasses, saying anyone voting Westbrook and Kobe over Wade had no merit. And yet here you are, getting lost in your own pile of shit, backtracking and such, and essentially saying 'I know Kobe and Westbrook were better than Wade last year, but Wade is still the best cause I said so!!"

Again, while others are staying consistent with the usage of facts, you are clenching on to your marred opinion, to save your agenda. And yet, you even have failed at that :facepalm

Wade very well might have a bounce back year, and a year from now we'll be saying he's clearly #5, ahead of Kobe and Westbrook. Or, maybe it'll be Westbrook who continues to improve, and vastly outplays Kobe and Wade.

But the criteria is "better player right now," and there's no basis to your claims that Wade should be ranked higher than Kobe or Westbrook outside of opinion, because according to production, Wade was the more efficient player and that's the only significant advantage he had.

Check yourself before you start calling other people "dumbasses."

[ncrizzle]

kobe/wade really is a tough choice. Im gonna go Wade though

[Vertical-24]

Wade is more efficient while scoring similar amount
Wade averages less turnover with similar amount of assists
Wade averages more rebounds
Wade averages more blocks steals and plays better overall defense

This season.....uhhhh...no :facepalm
22ppg and 28ppg aren't similar.
4.8rpg > 5.5rpg ?
This season, Kobe and Wade played a rather similar level of defense...defensive stats don't tell the whole story or else Ibaka could be deemed a better defender than guys like Howard, Chandler, KG etc.
Kobe averaged more turnovers than Wade because he is actually the primary ball handler on the team...Wade wasn't.

I could go on and on but it's not worth it...you just...no...no I'm done here. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[b1imtf]

Kobe

[fpliii]

over Nash? I am shocked fpliii

over MWP too :cheers:

I actually think Nash has a chance at breaking the single season apg record though

[chazzy]

The numbers don't even tell the story for Wade. He was wildly inconsistent within games, often not showing up for the first half of games and struggled creating for himself for his standards. Cmon Lebron fans, this was the rhetoric when people say he had great help!

[Kevin_Garnett_5]

:oldlol: How did Kobe fall to #5. I don't think I'd take Chris Paul over Kobe under any circumstances.

[jalbert009]

kobe :banana:

[BlackVVaves]

:oldlol: How did Kobe fall to #5. I don't think I'd take Chris Paul over Kobe under any circumstances.

Chris Paul was definitely a better player than Kobe last year, that really can't be disputed. His impact was more widespread, and if you want to measure intangibles, CP3 was more clutch than Kobe as well.

However, I will say that Kobe vastly outplayed CP3 in the playoffs. Discounting injuries or any other factors in favor of simply measuring production, that much is true.

Still, CP3 was a better player than Kobe last year overall.

[RRR3]

Both Bryant and Westbrook finished as the top two leaders in Usage percentage in last years regular season, Wade played primarily off the ball. And played career low minutes.

If they didn't have better core numbers, it would've been embarrassing. Wade was still a more efficient scorer than both, despite the balky knee. :oldlol:
Did you vote already? I assume from your post you vote for Wade, but just making sure...

Edit: nevermind saw your vote

[Rnbizzle]

Derrick Rose
Easily. A healthy Rose is better than Kobe or Wade at this point.

[joeyjoejoe]

Wade

[fpliii]

Easily. A healthy Rose is better than Kobe or Wade at this point.

quoting myself from the #3 thread


:facepalm

there is no more 'healthy' D-Rose

tearing an ACL is a debilitating injury from which he won't ever completely bounce back

he'll have to reinvent himself as a jumpshooter

CP3 tore his MCL and still isn't back to where he was before the injury

what's so hard to understand? don't delude yourself into believing otherwise

[NLZ]

Deron Williams

[BlueandGold]

Kobe Bryant, to do what he has done with all the injuries and with age is truly remarkable. His consistent level of play for 15+ years hasn't been seen since Kareem, even Jordan had to take a break in between his 3-peat to refocus.

[RRR3]

Kobe Bryant.
/thread


Kobe wins.

Part 6 coming soon

[Rnbizzle]

quoting myself from the #3 thread



what's so hard to understand? don't delude yourself into believing otherwise
You really not gonna let a Bulls fan have some hope? :confusedshrug: :cry:

[Faptastrophe]

wow.. Kobe in 5? Ok, let's ignore that Westbrook, Wade and even Love is better than him.

[Heavincent]

wow.. Kobe in 5? Ok, let's ignore that Westbrook, Wade and even Love is better than him.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Good one.

[Rnbizzle]

wow.. Kobe in 5? Ok, let's ignore that Westbrook, Wade and even Love is better than him.
Love is not better than Westbrook.. Melo however, is.

[AlonzoGOAT]

:oldlol: How did Kobe fall to #5. I don't think I'd take Chris Paul over Kobe under any circumstances.
CP3 is better then kobe and that's not even close to a tough decision nowq if were talking prime kobe then kobe anyday but this is 33 year old kobe

[fpliii]

You really not gonna let a Bulls fan have some hope? :confusedshrug: :cry:

lol sorry, was letting off some steam by trolling a bit

I think he can get back to 100%, but this is jeopardized if they rush him back

I like Rose a lot, but if he comes back next season there's a good chance he reinjures

your best bet is to tank for a season, pick up a top guy in the lottery, and allow Rose to fully recover for the 2013-14 season (he's still mad young)

[Rnbizzle]

lol sorry, was letting off some steam by trolling a bit

I think he can get back to 100%, but this is jeopardized if they rush him back

I like Rose a lot, but if he comes back next season there's a good chance he reinjures

your best bet is to tank for a season, pick up a top guy in the lottery, and allow Rose to fully recover for the 2013-14 season (he's still mad young)
Yeah you're right, I've accepted the fact that this coming season won't be pretty as a Bulls fan.

Would you agree with me that a healthy Derrick Rose (MVP season) is a top 5 player?

[fpliii]

Yeah you're right, I've accepted the fact that this coming season won't be pretty as a Bulls fan.

Would you agree with me that a healthy Derrick Rose (MVP season) is a top 5 player?

MVP season he was easily top 5...unlike most people I don't have a problem with him winning (anybody of Rose Dirk Dwight would be fine IMO)

as of last season, when healthy, I think there was a clear cut top 7 (in no particular order):

LeBron Wade Kobe CP3 Rose Dwight KD

three of those guys got hurt during the season (Wade, Rose, Dwight), I guess Kobe did too, so going forward this is all guesswork

[BlueandGold]

CP3 is better then kobe and that's not even close to a tough decision nowq if were talking prime kobe then kobe anyday but this is 33 year old kobe
I personally have Kobe at 4th behind Lebron/Durant/Dwight.

CP3 averaged 20/9/3.5 last year while Kobe averaged 28/5.5/4.5 , averaging 8 more points per game is not an easy achievement, especially given Kobe's injury and age issues. Remembering how bad his knee, fingers and wrist were a season ago it's actually pretty remarkable that he's still performing at this high of a level.

*knockonwood

[SilkkTheShocker]

wow.. Kobe in 5? Ok, let's ignore that Westbrook, Wade and even Love is better than him.


Kevin Love?

[BlackVVaves]

wow.. Kobe in 5? Ok, let's ignore that Westbrook, Wade and even Love is better than him.

:roll:

Go grab a dunce cap and pick a corner to sit in.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Watched every Wolves game last season and to say Kevin Love is even remotely close to Kobe is just :facepalm:

[Ikill]

This season.....uhhhh...no :facepalm
22ppg and 28ppg aren't similar.
4.8rpg > 5.5rpg ?
This season, Kobe and Wade played a rather similar level of defense...defensive stats don't tell the whole story or else Ibaka could be deemed a better defender than guys like Howard, Chandler, KG etc.
Kobe averaged more turnovers than Wade because he is actually the primary ball handler on the team...Wade wasn't.

I could go on and on but it's not worth it...you just...no...no I'm done here. :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm
this was my argument for Wade over Westbrook not Kobe.
I will give Kobe the scoring edge but Wade outrebounded Kobe per 36 and Wade had a TRB %. Wade and Kobe averaged the same amount of assists but Wade averaged one less turnover than Kobe. Wade also had a better defensive rating

[christian1923]

wow.. Kobe in 5? Ok, let's ignore that Westbrook, Wade and even Love is better than him.
C'mon k love isn't even good enough to start on a team with no true PF they rather put another SF out there. Lol

[Ikill]

In the preceding page, you claimed Wade "put up better stats."

Which is hilariously wrong :oldlol:

So, if I were to be a betting man, I'd assume you realized this, and before someone like myself ousted you with each player's stats - their REAL stats, not that PER 36 nonsense that is holds no relevance when comparing players who play close enough to 36 minutes a game to use their ACTUAL stats - you backtracked and stated the aforementioned quote.

"Kobe and Westbrook clearly had the more impressive seasons overall."

But wait! I thought in the last page you said you were using the most recent production to assess the player's rankings? :oldlol:

You started this thread calling other people dumbasses, saying anyone voting Westbrook and Kobe over Wade had no merit. And yet here you are, getting lost in your own pile of shit, backtracking and such, and essentially saying 'I know Kobe and Westbrook were better than Wade last year, but Wade is still the best cause I said so!!"

Again, while others are staying consistent with the usage of facts, you are clenching on to your marred opinion, to save your agenda. And yet, you even have failed at that :facepalm

Wade very well might have a bounce back year, and a year from now we'll be saying he's clearly #5, ahead of Kobe and Westbrook. Or, maybe it'll be Westbrook who continues to improve, and vastly outplays Kobe and Wade.

But the criteria is "better player right now," and there's no basis to your claims that Wade should be ranked higher than Kobe or Westbrook outside of opinion, because according to production, Wade was the more efficient player and that's the only significant advantage he had.

Check yourself before you start calling other people "dumbasses."
I gave my breakdown to why Westbrook was better than Wade early in this thread. Westbrook and Kobe had better seasons because they played more games but when Wade played he was better. I used per 36 because Westbrook and Wades stat were pretty much identical I wanted to show Wade got those stats more efficiently. I started calling others dumbasses because they were saying stupid shit like Wade has no case over Westbrook and Kobe but didnt give reasons. I was the one using facts and staying consistent while others like Heavincent were going by opinions.

[Ikill]

The numbers don't even tell the story for Wade. He was wildly inconsistent within games, often not showing up for the first half of games and struggled creating for himself for his standards. Cmon Lebron fans, this was the rhetoric when people say he had great help!
For most of the season Wade was playing good in first halfs but second but it was the opposite in the Boston series. Wade didnt have trouble creating he had trouble when he wasnt the main ball handler.

[Ikill]

I will give Kobe the scoring edge but Wade outrebounded Kobe per 36 and Wade had a TRB %. Wade and Kobe averaged the same amount of assists but Wade averaged one less turnover than Kobe. Wade also had a better defensive rating

Wade is more efficient while scoring a similar amount of points as Westbrook. Wade averages less turnovers with a similar amount of assists averages more rebounds more blocks steals and plays better overall defense.

[Ikill]

Yo