Why do people have Wilt ranked over Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more

Wilt - 2 Championships
Bird - 3 Championships
Shaq - 4 Championships
Kobe - 5 Championships
Duncan - 4 Championships

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a winning record in the NBA Finals

Wilt: 2-4
Bird: 3-2
Shaq: 4-2
Kobe: 5-2
Duncan: 4-0

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a higher winning % with HCA

Wilt: 13-5
Bird: 24-7
Shaq: 24-5
Kobe: 27-2
Duncan: 23-6

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have not dropped significant production come Playoff time

Wilt's PPG in the Regular season: 30.1
Wilt's PPG in the Playoffs: 22.5
Wilt's PPG in the Finals: 18.6

Wilt's FT% in the Regular season: 51.1
Wilt's FT% in the Playoffs: 46.5
Wilt's FT% in the Finals: 38.0

For people who are going to use teammates as an excuse for why he did not win more:

Wilt Chamberlain played with 6 Hall of Famers in Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Paul Arizin, Billy Cunningham, and Hal Greer, 5 of which were induced in the NBA's Top 50 greatest all time players.

Jerry West was arguably the best player in 1968-69 and 1969-70.
Here were his averages

1969 NBA Playoffs: 30.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 46.3 FG%
1969 NBA Finals: 37.9 ppg (2nd highest ever in an NBA Finals series)
1970 NBA Playoffs: 31.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 8.4 apg, 46.9 FG%
1970 NBA Finals: 31.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 7.7 apg, 45.0 FG%

Wilt still lost both those years.

In the 1969 Playoffs, the Lakers had HCA for every series including the NBA Finals. Wilt had the best player in the league, yet lost to a Boston Celtic team that did not reach 50 wins in the regular season and led by Bill Russell in his last season.

Here are some of Wilt's postseason failures:


1973 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA but lost the series in 5 games. Lakers lost by 4 points in Game 2 in which Wilt shot 1-9 from the freethrow line. Wilt put up 5 points in Game 3 which the Lakers lost by 4 points again. In the Game 5, Wilt shot 5-14 from the freethrow line. This capped off Wilt's 5th series loss with HCA to end his career.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 14-38 (36.8%)

1970 NBA Finals
Another Game 7 loss for the Lakers. Wilt shot 1-10 from the freethrow in a Game 1 loss. In Game 7, Wilt shot 11 freethrow attempts, only making 1.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 23-67 (34.3%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 1-11 (9.1%)

1969 NBA Finals
Lakers had HCA and were up 2-0 in the series and also 3-2 after Game 5. Lakers managed to lose the next 2 games including a 2 point loss in Game 7 in which Wilt missed 9 freethrows (4-13) while Jerry West put up 42-13-12 and won Finals MVP. Wilt shot 1-5 from the filed and missed 8 freethrows in a Game 6 loss and 1-5 from the field in game 2. Boston Celtic Sam Jones outscored Wilt Chamberlain in all 4 Game 7s.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 24-66 (36.4%)
Wilt's FT shooting in Game 7: 4-13 (30.8%)

1968 Divisional Finals
Another HCA series loss for Wilt. Wilt shot 6-21 from the field and missed 15 freethrows in a Game 6 loss. In Game 7, Wilt made 4 field goals and missed 9 freethrows in a 4 point loss. Wilt was the 9th leading scorer and the 5th leading scorer on his own team in that game 7 with 14 points

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 39-91 (42.9%)
Wilt FT shooting in Game 7: 6-15 (40.0%)

1966 Divisional Finals
His Sixers lost to Boston in 5 games. In the elimination Game 5, Wilt missed 17 freethrows (8-25) in a 8 point loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-68 (41.2%)

1965 Divisional Finals
Wilt shot 7-21 from the field in a Game 3 loss. The Sixers lost by 1 point in Game 7, Wilt missed 7 freethrows (6-13) in that game. Wilt was once again outscored by Sam Jones in a Game 7.

1964 NBA Finals
His team lost the series in 5 games. Wilt shot 4-12 from the freethrow line in a Game 1 loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Wilt's FT shooting for the series: 22-48 (45.8%)

Bird won 2 rings with Cedric Maxwell and Robert Parish as his best teammates, and another ring with Kevin McHale as his best teammate.
Shaq won 3 rings with Kobe as his best teammate, 1 of them Kobe was just a top 10 player in the league before his game fully developed.
Kobe won 2 rings with Pau Gasol as his 2nd option.
Duncan won 2 rings with older David Robinson as his 2nd option, and 2 other rings with Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

They have won just as much with less help

Please do not use his great regular season stats in the early '60s to prove to me he is better than Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.
It was a different era, different pace, different competition. The stats are not comparable.

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more, had less failures, had no significant drop in production in the Playoffs, and played in a better era.

[Sarcastic]

Because when you open up the record books, his name is everywhere.

[riseagainst]

people like stats.

[riseagainst]

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more

Wilt - 2 Championships
Bird - 3 Championships
Shaq - 4 Championships
Kobe - 5 Championships
Duncan - 4 Championships

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a winning record in the NBA Finals

Wilt: 2-4
Bird: 3-2
Shaq: 4-2
Kobe: 5-2
Duncan: 4-0

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a higher winning % with HCA

Wilt: 13-5
Bird: 24-7
Shaq: 24-5
Kobe: 27-2
Duncan: 23-6

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have not dropped significant production come Playoff time

Wilt's PPG in the Regular season: 30.1
Wilt's PPG in the Playoffs: 22.5
Wilt's PPG in the Finals: 18.6

Wilt's FT% in the Regular season: 51.1
Wilt's FT% in the Playoffs: 46.5
Wilt's FT% in the Finals: 38.0

For people who are going to use teammates as an excuse for why he did not win more:

Wilt Chamberlain played with 6 Hall of Famers in Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Paul Arizin, Billy Cunningham, and Hal Greer, 5 of which were induced in the NBA's Top 50 greatest all time players.

Jerry West was arguably the best player in 1968-69 and 1969-70.
Here were his averages

1969 NBA Playoffs: 30.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 46.3 FG%
1969 NBA Finals: 37.9 ppg (2nd highest ever in an NBA Finals series)
1970 NBA Playoffs: 31.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 8.4 apg, 46.9 FG%
1970 NBA Finals: 31.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 7.7 apg, 45.0 FG%

Wilt still lost both those years.

In the 1969 Playoffs, the Lakers had HCA for every series including the NBA Finals. Wilt had the best player in the league, yet lost to a Boston Celtic team that did not reach 50 wins in the regular season and led by Bill Russell in his last season.

Here are some of Wilt's postseason failures:



Bird won 2 rings with Cedric Maxwell and Robert Parish as his best teammates, and another ring with Kevin McHale as his best teammate.
Shaq won 3 rings with Kobe as his best teammate, 1 of them Kobe was just a top 10 player in the league before his game fully developed.
Kobe won 2 rings with Pau Gasol as his 2nd option.
Duncan won 2 rings with older David Robinson as his 2nd option, and 2 other rings with Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

They have won just as much with less help

Please do not use his great regular season stats in the early '60s to prove to me he is better than Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.
It was a different era, different pace, different competition. The stats are not comparable.

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more, had less failures, had no significant drop in production in the Playoffs, and played in a better era.

uh oh, here come the Kobe haters talking about being carried in his first 3. :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Because when you open up the record books, his name is everywhere.
Wilt in the 1961-62 Regular season averaged an NBA record 50.4 PPG


1962 Divisional Finals
Coming off his 50.4 ppg season, his PPG in the Playoffs dropped down by 15 points. In Game 7, Wilt was the 4th leading scorer with 22 points in a loss.

Regular season is more important than the Playoffs when ranking all-time greats?

[SpecialQue]

Threads like this make my penls soft. :(

[LakersReign]

OP, that makes no sense.....at all

[G-Funk]

I ask that all the time, My guess is because of the numbers he put up, same reason a lot of ppl hold the Big O in their top 10.

BUT if that's da case, are those numbers realistic in todays league if so he belongs where he is( I guess?)

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

by OP's logic, Robert Horry is a top 5 player of all time.

the title worship needs to stop, jesus.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Robery Horry = GOAT of the Modern era.

[riseagainst]

by OP's logic, Robert Horry is a top 5 player of all time.

the title worship needs to stop, jesus.

Is this even logic? robert horry was a roleplayer. :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

by OP's logic, Robert Horry is a top 5 player of all time.

the title worship needs to stop, jesus.
Robert Horry is not comparable to these guys at all. Please don't use this bad logic anymore.

[SpecialQue]

http://i635.photobucket.com/albums/uu73/Edinburgher/dog-carrying-gift-costume.jpg

[Sarcastic]

Wilt in the 1961-62 Regular season averaged an NBA record 50.4 PPG



Regular season is more important than the Playoffs when ranking all-time greats?


35 ppg in the playoffs is amazing.

[Sarcastic]

I ask that all the time, My guess is because of the numbers he put up, same reason a lot of ppl hold the Big O in their top 10.

BUT if that's da case, are those numbers realistic in todays league if so he belongs where he is( I guess?)


So if you want to discount the numbers from the 1960s, then should we also discount the rings from the 1960s too? How many other people were scoring 50 ppg in the 1960s, if it was so easy to do back then? Who else even scored 40 ppg?

[riseagainst]

So if you want to discount the numbers from the 1960s, then should we also discount the rings from the 1960s too? How many other people were scoring 50 ppg in the 1960s, if it was so easy to do back then? Who else even scored 40 ppg?

because no one else was 7'1.
http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/7296/28615355ddnbgli.jpg

[Sarcastic]

because no one else was 7'1.

Swede Halbrook was 7'3", and he scored 6.3 ppg that year.

[kennethgriffin]

ive also been somewhat skeptical of wilt due to his choking

he was so dominant numbers and records wise we sort of give him a pass for only having 2

but its not like hes oscar who gets a free pass for only having 1 ring as a third best player


wilt was the best player for 2 rings.

so in the end. he could realistically be ranked anywhere from top 5 to top 9-10 depending on what your criteria is



i myself rank it like this


#1 Jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Kareem
#4 Magic
#5 Kobe
#6 Wilt
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem

[miles berg]

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Kobe

[riseagainst]

Swede Halbrook was 7'3", and he scored 6.3 ppg that year.

wilt obviously wasn't an average player. But his dominant numbers came more due to his height than his actual skills, because almost no one can challenge him in the paint. no?

[2LeTTeRS]

Does this question really have to be answered? The easy answer is because when ranking players individual dominance is one of the most important factors, and he dominated his era like no one ever has.

[Rubio2Gasol]

A faster game

In Chamberlain's day, the game was much speedier. The 1962 Warriors led the league with 125.4 points per game. The entire league averaged 118.8 points and 107.7 attempted field goals per game.

By comparison, in 2005, the league averaged 97.2 points and tried 80 field goals per game.

Also, different defensive era TBH, no zone, no doubling , no presses , no traps. But to be honest they did it all to Wilt anyway, he probably shouldve shot 30 free throws a game.

[CavaliersFTW]

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more

Wilt - 2 Championships
Bird - 3 Championships
Shaq - 4 Championships
Kobe - 5 Championships
Duncan - 4 Championships

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a winning record in the NBA Finals

Wilt: 2-4
Bird: 3-2
Shaq: 4-2
Kobe: 5-2
Duncan: 4-0

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a higher winning % with HCA

Wilt: 13-5
Bird: 24-7
Shaq: 24-5
Kobe: 27-2
Duncan: 23-6

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have not dropped significant production come Playoff time

Wilt's PPG in the Regular season: 30.1
Wilt's PPG in the Playoffs: 22.5
Wilt's PPG in the Finals: 18.6

Wilt's FT% in the Regular season: 51.1
Wilt's FT% in the Playoffs: 46.5
Wilt's FT% in the Finals: 38.0

For people who are going to use teammates as an excuse for why he did not win more:

Wilt Chamberlain played with 6 Hall of Famers in Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Paul Arizin, Billy Cunningham, and Hal Greer, 5 of which were induced in the NBA's Top 50 greatest all time players.

Jerry West was arguably the best player in 1968-69 and 1969-70.
Here were his averages

1969 NBA Playoffs: 30.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 46.3 FG%
1969 NBA Finals: 37.9 ppg (2nd highest ever in an NBA Finals series)
1970 NBA Playoffs: 31.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 8.4 apg, 46.9 FG%
1970 NBA Finals: 31.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 7.7 apg, 45.0 FG%

Wilt still lost both those years.

In the 1969 Playoffs, the Lakers had HCA for every series including the NBA Finals. Wilt had the best player in the league, yet lost to a Boston Celtic team that did not reach 50 wins in the regular season and led by Bill Russell in his last season.

Here are some of Wilt's postseason failures:



Bird won 2 rings with Cedric Maxwell and Robert Parish as his best teammates, and another ring with Kevin McHale as his best teammate.
Shaq won 3 rings with Kobe as his best teammate, 1 of them Kobe was just a top 10 player in the league before his game fully developed.
Kobe won 2 rings with Pau Gasol as his 2nd option.
Duncan won 2 rings with older David Robinson as his 2nd option, and 2 other rings with Manu Ginobili and Tony Parker.

They have won just as much with less help

Please do not use his great regular season stats in the early '60s to prove to me he is better than Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.
It was a different era, different pace, different competition. The stats are not comparable.

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more, had less failures, had no significant drop in production in the Playoffs, and played in a better era.
Troll thread :lol But here goes anyways:

*Wilt's peak is Mount Everest, nobody else has come close

*Throughout his career he wrote and still owns the NBA record book with #'s that nobody could match then, now, or ever

*The teams he did win with were top teams all-time and he did anchor them both as the teams best player. FMVP in '72 at 35 years old, and was on the league MVP ballot with a healthy # of votes and in '67 he was easily both of those things (despite FMVP not yet existing). Despite peoples fixation today on scoring #'s and trying to use it against Wilt (a 50ppg scorer when it was his role :biggums: ) for not scoring like that on his title teams, he was considered the best player on both title teams that he won with, not the players putting up scoring #'s like Goodrich / Greer/ West. He willingly yielded scoring titles to focus on other aspects of his game (setting new records and raising the bar to unmatchable levels in other aspects of his game in the process)

*His overall impact and impression he left on the league is massive. People still talk about him and whore out his accomplishments today (much to your disdain). 50 years from now guys like Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Bird will be lucky to get the same amount of attention.

Thus, to some people, he is locked in at such a high rank.

[Sarcastic]

wilt obviously wasn't an average player. But his dominant numbers came more due to his height than his actual skills, because almost no one can challenge him in the paint. no?

Bill Russell played in the same era and didn't put numbers anywhere close to Wilt's. Isn't he above average?

[riseagainst]

Bill Russell played in the same era and didn't put numbers anywhere close to Wilt's. Isn't he above average?

that's due to his defensive presence. but i'm not sure where you are going with this.

[SpecialQue]

Culturally, no player other than Magic, Bird, and Jordan have touched Wilt's name recognition. Keep puking up all the biased shit you want, no one will ever talk about players like Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, or Lebron the same way they talk about Wilt. Ever.

U MAD?????

[Sarcastic]

that's due to his defensive presence. but i'm not sure where you are going with this.

Wilt didn't have a defensive presence? He'd be the all time leader in blocks if they were recorded. He's anchored some of the greatest defenses of all time.

[riseagainst]

Wilt didn't have a defensive presence? He'd be the all time leader in blocks if they were recorded. He's anchored some of the greatest defenses of all time.

when did I say this? I'm responding to your question about: if it was so easy to score back then why was Wilt the only one to score 50ppg. I said because most of the other players could not challenge him mainly due to the difference in height. :confusedshrug:

[CavaliersFTW]

when did I say this? I'm responding to your question about: if it was so easy to score back then why was Wilt the only one to score 50ppg. I said because most of the other players could not challenge him mainly due to the difference in height. :confusedshrug:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

There is no measurable difference in height between players then vs players now... literally, none. NBA has been inflating list heights to a ridiculous degree since the 1980's but when u look up barefoot heights everything magically equalizes :lol

P.S. Yao Ming says wussup

[Sarcastic]

when did I say this? I'm responding to your question about: if it was so easy to score back then why was Wilt the only one to score 50ppg. I said because most of the other players could not challenge him mainly due to the difference in height. :confusedshrug:


This guy should have scored 70 ppg then.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RvHRyLzXHGQ/T27NVXjfPOI/AAAAAAAAAlI/rGarWZFC7ow/s1600/Manute+Bol.jpg

[riseagainst]

This guy should have scored 70 ppg then.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RvHRyLzXHGQ/T27NVXjfPOI/AAAAAAAAAlI/rGarWZFC7ow/s1600/Manute+Bol.jpg


:eek:

[Odinn]

Is there a poster that doesn't know you're a Wilt(jlauber) hater?

Also there are plenty of Kobe>Bird, Kobe>Shaq or Kobe>Duncan threads or posts by you. Why didn't you mention only Kobe? Insecure too much?

[riseagainst]

Is there a poster that doesn't know you're a Wilt(jlauber) hater?

Also there are plenty of Kobe>Bird, Kobe>Shaq or Kobe>Duncan threads or posts by you. Why didn't you mention only Kobe? Insecure too much?

but the highlighted ones are true. :confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

1. Jordan
2. Jabbar
3. Wilt
4. Russell
5. Magic
6. Bird
7. Shaq
8. Hakeem
9. Duncan
10. Kobe

there is no valid argument for hakeem over kobe or duncan

kobe just from 2006-2012 has as many rings,finals mvps,season mvps and more records, all nba 1st teams, all defensive 1st teams, and more 40,50,60 point games

so how can kobe with just half a career being better than hakeems entire career possibly be ranked lower with both his 1st and 2nd halfs combined?

[Whoah10115]

Threads like this make my penls soft. :(



:(

[Deuce Bigalow]

Troll thread :lol But here goes anyways:

*Wilt's peak is Mount Everest, nobody else has come close

*Throughout his career he wrote and still owns the NBA record book with #'s that nobody could match then, now, or ever

*The teams he did win with were top teams all-time and he did anchor them both as the teams best player. FMVP in '72 at 35 years old, and was on the league MVP ballot with a healthy # of votes and in '67 he was easily both of those things (despite FMVP not yet existing). Despite peoples fixation today on scoring #'s and trying to use it against Wilt (a 50ppg scorer when it was his role :biggums: ) for not scoring like that on his title teams, he was considered the best player on both title teams that he won with, not the players putting up scoring #'s like Goodrich / Greer/ West. He willingly yielded scoring titles to focus on other aspects of his game (setting new records and raising the bar to unmatchable levels in other aspects of his game in the process)

*His overall impact and impression he left on the league is massive. People still talk about him and whore out his accomplishments today (much to your disdain). 50 years from now guys like Duncan/Kobe/Shaq/Bird will be lucky to get the same amount of attention.

Thus, to some people, he is locked in at such a high rank.
This is because he played in the fastest pace era (early 60s) and the defense was not that great.

1961-62 Warriors - Wilt's team
125.4 PPG
116.1 FGA
74.2 RPG on basketball reference team RB, 63.8 RPG by adding totals

2009-10 NBA League Average
100.4
81.7 FGA
41.7 RPG

[Deuce Bigalow]

Is there a poster that doesn't know you're a Wilt(jlauber) hater?

Also there are plenty of Kobe>Bird, Kobe>Shaq or Kobe>Duncan threads or posts by you. Why didn't you mention only Kobe? Insecure too much?
No. I have posted my top 10 many times already.
Bird and Shaq are ahead of Kobe for me right now.
But the reason why I mentioned all is because they are the players behind Wilt on a lot of lists even though they have a better career.

[Deuce Bigalow]

This guy should have scored 70 ppg then.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RvHRyLzXHGQ/T27NVXjfPOI/AAAAAAAAAlI/rGarWZFC7ow/s1600/Manute+Bol.jpg
Looks at those legs :oldlol:
Atleast use a guy that looks athletic

[CavaliersFTW]

This is because he played in the fastest pace era (early 60s) and the defense was not that great.

1961-62 Warriors - Wilt's team125.4 PPG
116.1 FGA
63.8 RPG (I added up the total so don't worry jlauber)

2009-10 NBA League Average
100.4
81.7 FGA
41.7 RPG
So his team scores 75ppg w/o him on awful %, and Wilt slaps on another 50 on <50%:applause: . There's a ~35ppg ceiling virtually everyone else in NBA history seems to stop at when scoring for a season. Everyone except Wilt that is, Wilt still scored 50... and 45 :lol facts are facts - Wilt is the mount Everest of peak play his records can't be written off by 1 dimensional analysis of pace or w/e. Nothing justifies 50ppg, nothing. Its still insane.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt averaged 21.0 RPG in the 1972 Playoffs for 15 games

You think that is amazing!

Well, his he had a 20.2 RB%

Shaq at the same age averaged a 18.4 RB% in the 2007-08. After he got traded to the Suns, he averaged a 20.8 RB% in the 35 games

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt averaged 21.0 RPG in the 1972 Playoffs for 15 games

You think that is amazing!

Well, his he had a 20.2 RB%

Shaq at the same age averaged a 18.4 RB% in the 2007-08. After he got traded to the Suns, he averaged a 20.8 RB% in the 35 games
And? :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

So his team scores 75ppg w/o him on awful %, and Wilt slaps on another 50 on <50%:applause: . There's a ~35ppg ceiling virtually everyone else in NBA history seems to stop at when scoring for a season. Everyone except Wilt that is, Wilt still scored 50... and 45 :lol facts are facts - Wilt is the mount Everest of peak play his records can't be written off by 1 dimensional analysis of pace or w/e. Nothing justifies 50ppg, nothing. Its still insane.
That is not the way it works :oldlol:

The rest of his teammates will take the 39 FGA without him on the court. They'll atleast score 40, cmon now.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And? :confusedshrug:
Moses Malone at the same age had a 19.1 RB%

Wilt's numbers are great, but his numbers look amazing because of the era he played in.

[Jax]

Are we gonna pretend this thread is not about Kobe?

[CavaliersFTW]

That is not the way it works :oldlol:

The rest of his teammates will take the 39 FGA without him on the court. They'll atleast score 40, cmon now.
I wonder what ChuckBe would average in the 60's/early 70's w/o a 3 point line, tight carry calls, and lack of guard favortism to pad his stats. 22ppg career with 28ppg peak? a few glorious 40 point performances with a 60 point game as his best mark? 0 rings cause Russell, Wilt, Reed, Kareem were putting diminimutive guards in their place back then. Sounds about right :applause: If Kobe was lucky enough to team up with one of them he might squeak out a ring or two on their coattails :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I wonder what ChuckBe would average in the 60's/early 70's w/o a 3 point line, tight carry calls, and lack of guard favortism to pad his stats. 22ppg career with 28ppg peak? a few glorious 40 point performances with a 60 point game as his best mark? 0 rings cause Russell, Wilt, Reed, Kareem were putting diminimutive guards in their place back then. Sounds about right :applause: If Kobe was lucky enough to team up with one of them he might squeak out a ring or two on their coattails :bowdown:
You can't be serious :oldlol: You just can't be :roll:

[CavaliersFTW]

You can't be serious :oldlol: You just can't be :roll:
I'm as serious as you are :applause:

[Odinn]

Are we gonna pretend this thread is not about Kobe?
Of course. They are Kobe-stans. They are the most arrogant fans.:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Of course. They are Kobe-stans. They are the most arrogant fans.:oldlol:
This isn't about Kobe.
This is about why is Wilt ahead of players that have a better career.

And no, Kobe fans are not the most arrogant. In fact have you ever visited Spurstalk? They literally believe that Kobe has been carried to all his rings and can't win "by himself" :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

I'm as serious as you are :applause:
Go back and read the OP. I'm serious.

[Legends66NBA7]

Why do "people's" arbitrary lists of Wilt over Bird/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan concern you ?

People can rank Wilt over who ever they want and call him GOAT, it's not that serious of an issue.

And looking at some the hand picked stats you have out there:


Wilt's PPG in the Regular season: 30.1
Wilt's PPG in the Playoffs: 22.5
Wilt's PPG in the Finals: 18.6

His role changed, throughout his career. All his Finals years, he didn't play a #1 scoring option year anymore.


Jerry West was arguably the best player in 1968-69 and 1969-70.
Here were his averages

1969 NBA Playoffs: 30.9 ppg, 3.9 rpg, 7.5 apg, 46.3 FG%
1969 NBA Finals: 37.9 ppg (2nd highest ever in an NBA Finals series)
1970 NBA Playoffs: 31.2 ppg, 3.7 rpg, 8.4 apg, 46.9 FG%
1970 NBA Finals: 31.3 ppg, 3.4 rpg, 7.7 apg, 45.0 FG%

Wilt still lost both those years.

You mean the Lakers lost both those years ?


Please do not use his great regular season stats in the early '60s to prove to me he is better than Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.
It was a different era, different pace, different competition. The stats are not comparable.

So why the **** would you use Wilt's career stats, that include every year of the 60's, his "playoff failures" that again have the majority year of the 60's, etc.. ?

:facepalm

It makes the whole "argument" you just made pointless, because you already concluded that it's a "different era" and "not comparable".

So what are you even comparing ?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Why do "people's" arbitrary lists of Wilt over Bird/Shaq/Kobe/Duncan concern you ?

People can rank Wilt over who ever they want and call him GOAT, it's not that serious of an issue.

And looking at some the hand picked stats you have out there:



His role changed, throughout his career. All his Finals years, he didn't play a #1 scoring option year anymore.



You mean the Lakers lost both those years ?



So why the **** would you use Wilt's career stats, that include every year of the 60's, his "playoff failures" that again have the majority year of the 60's, etc.. ?

:facepalm

It makes the whole "argument" you just made pointless, because you already concluded that it's a "different era" and "not comparable".

So what are you even comparing ?
I meant don't try to say Wilt is better because 30.1/22.9 career average > than the 4 guys.

It means not comparing his stats to a different era

I used his numbers in his era.

Not sure whats hard to understand about that.

[Legends66NBA7]

What I'm trying to understand is why are you using Wilt's stats in the first place ?

Are you trying to make some sort of comparison to his era ?

[CavaliersFTW]

I meant don't try to say Wilt is better because 30.1/22.9 career average > than the 4 guys.

It means not comparing his stats to a different era

I used his numbers in his era.

Not sure whats hard to understand about that.
His stats are definitely part of the reason he's better. 50ppg, 48.5mpg, 55 rebounds blah blah blah - isn't happening again, and it never happened from any other player, ever. I don't care what the league's pace is, and w/e other excuse you can think of. His measurements as a physical specimen, his stats (even if "adjusted), his athleticism, his skillset etc all point to a rich-man's Shaq and then some. And a rich-man's Shaq is > Shaq/Duncan/Kobe... I'm serious, u mad? :lol

[Legends66NBA7]

His stats are definitely part of the reason he's better. 50ppg, 48.5mpg, 55 rebounds blah blah blah - isn't happening again, and it never happened from any other player, ever. I don't care what the league's pace is, and w/e other excuse you can think of. His measurements as a physical specimen, his stats (even if "adjusted), his athleticism, his skillset etc all point to a rich-man's Shaq and then some. And a rich-man's Shaq is > Shaq/Duncan/Kobe... I'm serious, u mad? :lol

And those stats aren't even in the most impressive to me. From another thread:


And as for comparing player under pressure situations, it's well known that Wilt had different roles when he moved from teams.

In elimination games, from 1960-66, Wilt averaged 40ppg in 12 games. He had 3 of his 4 50+ point games were in those elimination games too. I don't have all the averages, but I'm pretty sure he's averaged in 20+ range in rebounds and his fg% is high, his ft% is low.

In elimination games, from 1967-73, Wilt averaged 23ppg in 12 games (different roles). He wasn't the main scoring option anymore (he was defenive minded Wilt at this time), but still was able to pull out a 45/27 game, 30/27/11 blocks (reported), etc...

You round his scoring average to 31.5ppg in 24 elimination games, with I'm pretty sure he had a rebounding average of 20+, high fg%, high blocks, and his enigma of low ft%.

Obviously, Wilt had his moments that he did "choke", where he should have stepped up more when he was playing a lesser role. But looking at just the raw data, when he wanted too... I think calling him a "choker", just doesn't hold up to me. Not when his actual production and championship resume say otherwise.

[Deuce Bigalow]

His stats are definitely part of the reason he's better. 50ppg, 48.5mpg, 55 rebounds blah blah blah - isn't happening again, and it never happened from any other player, ever. I don't care what the league's pace is, and w/e other excuse you can think of. His measurements as a physical specimen, his stats (even if "adjusted), his athleticism, his skillset etc all point to a rich-man's Shaq and then some. And a rich-man's Shaq is > Shaq/Duncan/Kobe... I'm serious, u mad? :lol
Then in Game 7 he was the 4th leading scorer in the game with 22 points in a loss that year

[ThaRegul8r]

Is there a poster that doesn't know you're a Wilt(jlauber) hater?

This is obviously nothing but an attempt to bait him. People should just ignore it and let it get pushed to the bottom.

[RRR3]

Neg OP mercilessly

[KG215]

i myself rank it like this


#1 Jordan
#2 Russell
#3 Kareem
#4 Magic
#5 Kobe
#6 Wilt
#7 Bird
#8 Shaq
#9 Duncan
#10 Hakeem

So, in just a few weeks without playing a game, Kobe has moved up a spot to #5 on your list?

By the time the regular season starts you'll have him at #3 and, by the playoffs you'll be making "Is Kobe the GOAT?" threads if they finish with 65-68 and look like world beaters heading into the playoffs.

[CavaliersFTW]

So, in just a few weeks without playing a game, Kobe has moved up a spot to #5 on your list?

By the time the regular season starts you'll have him at #3 and, by the playoffs you'll be making "Is Kobe the GOAT?" threads if they finish with 65-68 and look like world beaters heading into the playoffs.
:lol

[fpliii]

I don't really have a position on this, but Sixers Wilt (before he got bored) led one of the 10 greatest teams in league history when he approached the game differently. I don't buy the Russell emulation bit, but he first became a true defensive anchor when he went back to Philly (he was already a great man-to-man big defender, but that's not as valuable). On the Lakers he reprised this role, but the injury in 70 really altered the remainder of his career, from my understanding.

The Warriors years are a weird phenomenon, and I don't know how to approach them (objectively or otherwise). I don't think that he was whole levels among anyone else in league history, but I also don't believe he was purely a product of the era (pace/competition/context). There were other weird things at hand, so you can't view those seasons at face value, just as you can't openly devalue them. Personally, I prefer to think of that as a different player, who doesn't really interest me as much as Wilt after that first trade.

Call me crazy if you will, but since I didn't have a chance to see him live, this is where I stand based on the research I've done. :confusedshrug:

[DaSeba5]

So, in just a few weeks without playing a game, Kobe has moved up a spot to #5 on your list?

By the time the regular season starts you'll have him at #3 and, by the playoffs you'll be making "Is Kobe the GOAT?" threads if they finish with 65-68 and look like world beaters heading into the playoffs.

He's already started the GOAT thread :lol

[KyrieTheFuture]

Probably because they think he's better.

[Pointguard]

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have won more

Wilt - 2 Championships
Bird - 3 Championships
Shaq - 4 Championships
Kobe - 5 Championships
Duncan - 4 Championships

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a winning record in the NBA Finals

Wilt: 2-4
Bird: 3-2
Shaq: 4-2
Kobe: 5-2
Duncan: 4-0

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have a higher winning % with HCA

Wilt: 13-5
Bird: 24-7
Shaq: 24-5
Kobe: 27-2
Duncan: 23-6

Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan all have not dropped significant production come Playoff time

Wilt's PPG in the Regular season: 30.1
Wilt's PPG in the Playoffs: 22.5
Wilt's PPG in the Finals: 18.6

Wilt's FT% in the Regular season: 51.1
Wilt's FT% in the Playoffs: 46.5
Wilt's FT% in the Finals: 38.0

For people who are going to use teammates as an excuse for why he did not win more:

Wilt Chamberlain played with 6 Hall of Famers in Jerry West, Elgin

In the 1969 Playoffs, the Lakers had HCA for every series including the NBA Finals. Wilt had the best player in the league, yet lost to a Boston Celtic team that did not reach 50 wins in the regular season and led by Bill Russell in his last season.



Given your logic, Russell is the best without question. Wilt averaged like 29pts and 29 rebs on Russell on a humongous sample. And you ask why?

[Owl]

Is this even logic? robert horry was a roleplayer. :facepalm

Robert Horry is not comparable to these guys at all. Please don't use this bad logic anymore.
But how do you figure out who's a role player. Surely the main, primary way of calculating how good a basketball player is to look at his titles, like you just did.

And if there is some magical way of calculating who is important on a team, can we not apply this to players on different teams when comparing them?

[senelcoolidge]

It depends are you asking for best player ever or just the player with the most championships. Not everyone is lucky enough to win a championship. You can be great and not win because the teams you're on sucks, circumstances like your unlucky to play during a dynasty run or injuries..etc.

[Deuce Bigalow]

But how do you figure out who's a role player. Surely the main, primary way of calculating how good a basketball player is to look at his titles, like you just did.

And if there is some magical way of calculating who is important on a team, can we not apply this to players on different teams when comparing them?
Common sense, watch the games, look at the #s, ect :confusedshrug:

[Deuce Bigalow]

It depends are you asking for best player ever or just the player with the most championships. Not everyone is lucky enough to win a championship. You can be great and not win because the teams you're on sucks, circumstances like your unlucky to play during a dynasty run or injuries..etc.
Yes I agree championships are tough to win and there are circumstances, but there is no excuse why the Lakers lost in 1969. Wilt played on great teams too. On the rankings championships matter. When you have a great team, you're expected to win if you are great. Now, Wilt is great. He led his team to 2 Championships, but he should have had another atleast.

[Owl]

That is not the way it works :oldlol:

The rest of his teammates will take the 39 FGA without him on the court. They'll atleast score 40, cmon now.
Well they won't get 40 off the field goals (most are averaging around 40% from the field) but maybe with free throws.

So lets say (hypothetically) you're right. They score 40. That means Wilt gives his team a 10 point advantage a game. An average team has a margin of victory of 0 over season (if we're assuming they play an average schedule). The games best teams in history have a margin of victory of ten http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&c1stat=mov&c1comp=gt&c1val=-10&c2stat=srs&c2comp=gt&c2val=-10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=mov
So Wilt, by his scoring alone (ignoring his league leading rebounding and defense), he could turn an otherwise absolutely average team, into one of the greatest in history. Why that sounds to me like one of the top 2 or 3 players of all time.

[Owl]

Common sense, watch the games, look at the #s, ect :confusedshrug:
And why is this method not better than counting team titles when evaluating players on different teams?

[TheBigVeto]

Wilt used to be ranked higher than those players.
Until jlauber comes along.
Then we are all sure that Wilt is the ultimate choker and deserves to be ranked outside of top 10 all time, bless his soul.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well they won't get 40 off the field goals (most are averaging around 40% from the field) but maybe with free throws.

So lets say (hypothetically) you're right. They score 40. That means Wilt gives his team a 10 point advantage a game. An average team has a margin of victory of 0 over season (if we're assuming they play an average schedule). The games best teams in history have a margin of victory of ten http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/tsl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=advanced&lg_id=NBA&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&c1stat=mov&c1comp=gt&c1val=-10&c2stat=srs&c2comp=gt&c2val=-10&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=mov
So Wilt, by his scoring alone (ignoring his league leading rebounding and defense), he could turn an otherwise absolutely average team, into one of the greatest in history. Why that sounds to me like one of the top 2 or 3 players of all time.
Shows you how weak that era was. Most of the players besides the great ones were not talented or skilled. If a team can't score 40 points with 39 FGAs :confusedshrug: With freethrows of course becasue that is part of the game, getting fouled.

Thanks for making my point on that era though.

[CavaliersFTW]

Shows you how weak that era was. Most of the players besides the great ones were not talented or skilled. If a team can't score 40 points with 39 FGAs :confusedshrug: With freethrows of course becasue that is part of the game, getting fouled.

Thanks for making my point on that era though.
7ppg Jim King doing footwork and a post move that puts Lebron James to shame.... boy what pathetic skill the non-great players from 60s all must have had. got anymore baseless blanket statements you'd like to make? :lol

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/123/f/1/jimmyking1964_by_dantheman9758-d4ygg1c.gif

[Deuce Bigalow]

7ppg Jim King doing footwork and a post move that puts Lebron James to shame.... boy what pathetic skill the non-great players from 60s all must have had. got anymore baseless blanket statements you'd like to make? :lol

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/123/f/1/jimmyking1964_by_dantheman9758-d4ygg1c.gif
7.2 PPG on 6.7 FGA, and he doesn't do anything else good

That's a scrub :oldlol:

The thing is, most of the players were like that in that era.

[CavaliersFTW]

7.2 PPG on 6.7 FGA, and he doesn't do anything else good

That's a scrub :oldlol:

The thing is, most of the players were like that in that era.
Oh so he's some sort of specialist expert on post moves but good for nothing else? :oldlol: On what are you basing this claim? All the footage of him you've never watched?

[PHILA]

Wilt averaged 21.0 RPG in the 1972 Playoffs for 15 games

You think that is amazing!

Well, his he had a 20.2 RB%

Shaq at the same age averaged a 18.4 RB% in the 2007-08. After he got traded to the Suns, he averaged a 20.8 RB% in the 35 games


Moses Malone at the same age had a 19.1 RB%

Wilt's numbers are great, but his numbers look amazing because of the era he played in.

The stat you have referenced is "an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor." With less possessions and the presumably fewer minutes he would play today, Wilt would enjoy the advantage of an inflated TRB%. Never mind the lesser competition at C plus the nature of the modern game leaving the paint wide open compared to the congested paint from the old days with no 3 pt. line.

[Psileas]

The stat you have referenced is "an estimate of the percentage of available rebounds a player grabbed while he was on the floor." With less possessions and the presumably fewer minutes he would play today, Wilt would enjoy the advantage of an inflated TRB%. Never mind the lesser competition at C plus the nature of the modern game leaving the paint wide open compared to the congested paint from the old days with no 3 pt. line.

Plus, nobody in his right mind would compare the rebounding rate of a guy who played way more than 40 mpg to that of a guy who didn't even get 30 (that's equally stupid with comparing a PER of, let's say 25, of a superstar to a comparable PER of a good 6th man).
And what's the point of it, anyway? A TR% of 20.2 is very impressive, especially for playoff competition. To give a perspective, Hakeem's best (by far) playoff rebounding rate in any postseason he played a significant number of games (say, 10+ or even 5+) was 18.7, and he still grabbed an impressive 14.0 rpg. Kareem surpassed the rate of 20 in only 1 postseason. David Robinson in 2. Shaq in 2, including the historic 2000 postseason, when he posted a 20.4 rate at 43.5 mpg, for a 15.4 rpg average. Who would be stupid enough to call this non amazing? Moses Malone grabbed a rate of "just" 18.2 in his own historic 1981 postseason, for an average of 14.5...

Let's not even go to Wilt being a better shot blocker than all of them, especially Moses.

[Dr. Cheesesteak]

Is this even logic? robert horry was a roleplayer. :facepalm

Robert Horry is not comparable to these guys at all. Please don't use this bad logic anymore.
:facepalm


Robery Horry = GOAT of the Modern era.
someone gets it :banana:

[bmd]

Kurt Rambis is a 4 time NBA champion... he's gotta be in the top 10 or so.

[KOBE143]

Wilt the choker should never rank ahead any of the top ten player.. Regular seasons stats champs to playoff career choker.. Wilt disappeared when competition gets tougher..

[jlauber]

The answer is pretty obvious...

Chamberlain was a better scorer, rebounder, more efficient (especially against his league average), a much better defender, and at the very worst, the equal as a passer to any of them (NONE of whom ever sniffed an Assist title BTW...or averaged 9.2 apg in an entire playoffs.)

[Deuce Bigalow]

The answer is pretty obvious...

Chamberlain was a better scorer, rebounder, more efficient (especially against his league average), a much better defender, and at the very worst, the equal as a passer to any of them (NONE of whom ever sniffed an Assist title BTW...or averaged 9.2 apg in an entire playoffs.)
Wrong

Playoff numbers, let me also add championships
Wilt: 22 ppg on 52 TS% (14th all-time total points) - 2 NBA Championships
Bird: 24 ppg on 55 TS% (8th all-time total points) - 3 NBA Championships
Shaq: 24 ppg on 57 TS% (4th all-time total points) - 4 NBA Championships
Kobe: 25 ppg on 54 TS% (3rd all-time total points) - 5 NBA Championships
Duncan: 22 ppg on 55 TS% (7th all-time total points) - 4 NBA Championships

All higher PPG and higher efficiency despite playing in tougher and slower paced eras.

A 4 APG career average. Not better than Bird or Kobe.

Rebounding #s are are tough to compare since it's a different era and Wilt played in some seasons where the league average was 71 RPG, and in the 60s range, the 00s average is about 42 RPG.

[jlauber]

Wrong

Playoff numbers
Wilt: 22 ppg on 52 TS% (14th all-time total points)
Bird: 24 ppg on 55 TS% (8th all-time total points)
Shaq: 24 ppg on 57 TS% (4th most all-time total points)
Kobe: 25 ppg on 54 TS% (3rd most all-time total points)
Duncan: 22 ppg on 55 TS% (7th all-time total points)

A 4 APG career average. Not better than Bird or Kobe.

Rebounding #s are are tough to compare since it's a different era and Wilt played in some seasons where the league average was 71 RPG, and in the 60s range, the 00s average is about 42 RPG.

Not the same crap again! :facepalm

How many of those guys had post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. I will give you Shaq's 2000 Finals, which I have long calimed as the most dominant ever (albeit against two clods.) But as for the rest, give me their 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg playoff series. Or their FOUR 50+ point playoff games (with a high of 56) and in which THREE were in "must-win" situations.

Rebounding? Sorry, but there is no amount of twisted second grade math that is going to account for post-seasons of 27, 29, and 30 rpg. Wilt had a 25+% total rebound percentage against RUSSELL in the '67 ECF's, BTW.

And Wilt's .522 career post-season FG% came in post-seasons in which the league shot between .402 to .455. He was probably about 100 points above the league average, on average, and had post-seasons of WAY above that. He also had SEVERAL post-season series at .600+, including TWO Finals.

And, as ALWAYS, you fail to mention that Wilt was DRAMATICALLY reducing his opposing centers in the process. Kareem shot .481 and .457 against an OLD Wilt in their two WCF's (including .414 in the last four games of the '72 WCF's) in seasons in which Kareem shot .577 and .574 respectively.

Chamberlain held Russell to SEVERAL post-season series of .399 and under. He also outshot Thurmond in their three H2H playoff series by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and .560 to .343 (and that came in Nate's greatest season.) He even crushed Bellamy in the '68 playoffs, when he outscored him, 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounded him, 24.2 rpg to 16.0 rpg; and outshot him, .584 to .421 (and incidently, Bellamy shot .541 against the league that season.)

He crushed players like Kerr, Dierking, and Beaty, as well. Had he had the opportunity to play against stunble-bums in the early rounds of the playoffs like players like Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem did, Wilt would have probably averaged much closer to 30 ppg in his post-season career.

[jlauber]

And this from another thread...


BTW, I will be posting some new info regarding his "decline" in the post-season, as well. It is amazing, but given the actual scoring and especially shooting percentages in the Wilt-era POST-SEASONS, he was consistently at or near his regular season numbers.

And, had he had the good "fortune" to have been eliminated in the first round of the playoffs, EIGHT times, as was the case with Hakeem, his first round numbers were often HIGHER. And, I have read an idiot post claiming that Hakeem outshot Wilt from the field in the post-season (by a .528 to .522 margin), BUT, I will be comparing their post-season LEAGUE AVERAGES, (and even including eFG%'s), which CLEARLY gives Chamberlain a HUGE edge.

As examples, in Wilt's fist eight post-seasons, and in his first round, he averaged

38.7 ppg

37.0 ppg

37.0 ppg

38.6 ppg and on .559 shooting (in a post-season NBA of 105.8 ppg on .420 shooting)

27.8 ppg (and then 30.1 ppg, on .555 shooting, and against Russell)

28.0 ppg

28.0 ppg (and a great example of FG% at .612 in a post-season at .424)

25.5 ppg (and on .584 shooting, while his opposing center, Bellamy was at 20.0 on .421 shooting.)

Even in his 11th season, and only four months removed from major knee surgery, Chamberlain put up a first round of 23.7 ppg., 20.3 rpg, and .549.

And, in his 71-72 post-season, he had a 14.5 ppg, 20.8 rpg, .629 first round series (and in an NBA post-season of .446.)

So while Chamberlain was shooting .522 in his post-season career, it came in post-seasons of between .402 to .455. Meanwhile Hakeem's .528 came in post-seasons of as high as .492, and an efg% as high as .500. MANY in the .485+ range, as well.

And, keep in mind two more interesting points. One, in Wilt's second greatest scoring season (44.8 ppg on .528 shooting) his all-time worst roster kept him from playing in the post-season (which probably cost him another 2-3+ ppg in his post-seasob career average.) And two, he faced a starting HOF center in 105 of his 160 post-season games, including Russell in 49, Thurmond in 17, and a PRIME Kareem in 11.

[Hands of Iron]

The answer is pretty obvious...

Chamberlain was a better scorer, rebounder, more efficient (especially against his league average), a much better defender, and at the very worst, the equal as a passer to any of them (NONE of whom ever sniffed an Assist title BTW...or averaged 9.2 apg in an entire playoffs.)

Bird was the better scorer in the playoffs and that's even hurt by his appearances post-back injury which all but ended his prime and ultimately his career. Overall, he's a much more versatile scorer, a better shooter, boasts a higher level of passing/playmaking ability and court vision; He's not anywhere near the liability Wilt is at the FT line and is in fact, one of the best FT shooters of all-time. He's got superior leadership qualities, makes everybody around him better and has a higher bball IQ and instinctive feel for the game.

Yes Sir! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flT88MH8hAM&feature=youtube_gdata_player)
:cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Not the same crap again! :facepalm

How many of those guys had post-seasons of 33.2 ppg, 34.7 ppg, 35.0 ppg, and 37.0 ppg. I will give you Shaq's 2000 Finals, which I have long calimed as the most dominant ever (albeit against two clods.) But as for the rest, give me their 37 ppg, 37 ppg, 39 ppg and 39 ppg playoff series. Or their FOUR 50+ point playoff games (with a high of 56) and in which THREE were in "must-win" situations.

Rebounding? Sorry, but there is no amount of twisted second grade math that is going to account for post-seasons of 27, 29, and 30 rpg. Wilt had a 25+% total rebound percentage against RUSSELL in the '67 ECF's, BTW.

And Wilt's .522 career post-season FG% came in post-seasons in which the league shot between .402 to .455. He was probably about 100 points above the league average, on average, and had post-seasons of WAY above that. He also had SEVERAL post-season series at .600+, including TWO Finals.

And, as ALWAYS, you fail to mention that Wilt was DRAMATICALLY reducing his opposing centers in the process. Kareem shot .481 and .457 against an OLD Wilt in their two WCF's (including .414 in the last four games of the '72 WCF's) in seasons in which Kareem shot .577 and .574 respectively.

Chamberlain held Russell to SEVERAL post-season series of .399 and under. He also outshot Thurmond in their three H2H playoff series by margins of .500 to .392; .550 to .398; and .560 to .343 (and that came in Nate's greatest season.) He even crushed Bellamy in the '68 playoffs, when he outscored him, 25.5 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounded him, 24.2 rpg to 16.0 rpg; and outshot him, .584 to .421 (and incidently, Bellamy shot .541 against the league that season.)

He crushed players like Kerr, Dierking, and Beaty, as well. Had he had the opportunity to play against stunble-bums in the early rounds of the playoffs like players like Kareem, Shaq, and Hakeem did, Wilt would have probably averaged much closer to 30 ppg in his post-season career.
You don't base a whole career on 4 seasons :facepalm And he did not win a championship in any of those seasons :facepalm
lol "Imma post his 4 best playoff ppgs"

[jlauber]

You don't base a whole career on 4 seasons :facepalm And he did not win a championship in any of those seasons :facepalm
lol "Imma post his 4 best playoff ppgs"

You really need some new material.

How about this...in Chamberlain's first 67 games, covering his "scoring" prime, which was greater than anyone not named MJ...he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515. And 35 of those 67 games were against Russell (and another six against Thurmond.)

Give me a list of the games in which Shaq, Bird, Kobe, or Duncan put up a 30-27-5 .515 GAME.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird from 1981-1987 Playoffs: 24.8 PPG on 56.1 TS%
Kobe from 2006-2012 Playoffs: 29.2 PPG on 56.1 TS%
Shaq from 1997-2004 Playoffs: 27.7 PPG on 56.4 TS%

Find me a stretch like that in which Wilt won multiple championships and put up scoring numbers like that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

You really need some new material.

How about this...in Chamberlain's first 67 games, covering his "scoring" prime, which was greater than anyone not named MJ...he AVERAGED 30.4 ppg, 27.0 rpg, 4.5 apg, and shot .515. And 35 of those 67 games were against Russell (and another six against Thurmond.)

Give me a list of the games in which Shaq, Bird, Kobe, or Duncan put up a 30-27-5 .515 GAME.
:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Different Era. What do you not understand? :facepalm

[Deuce Bigalow]

"Find me when they put up one 27 rebound game"

:facepalm :roll:

Sorry, they didn't play in an era where teams took 115+ FGA and 71 RPG per game, while shooting barely 40%

[jlauber]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

Different Era. What do you not understand? :facepalm

I agree. Duncan and Shaq faced FAR more PATSIES in their post-season careers, while Bird lived in the "defenseless 80's", and Kobe shrunk dramatically in his Finals.

[Hands of Iron]

"Find me when they put up one 27 rebound game"

:facepalm :roll:

Sorry, they didn't play in an era where teams took 115+ FGA and 71 RPG per game, while shooting barely 40%

Film Don't Lie.

Larry Bird: Business As Usual (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbDdnm3F1A&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Kobe Bryant: Greatness Personified (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Shaq: Black Tornado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78OKzsP8oYA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

:bowdown:

[jlauber]

"Find me when they put up one 27 rebound game"

:facepalm :roll:

Sorry, they didn't play in an era where teams took 115+ FGA and 71 RPG per game, while shooting barely 40%

Chamberlain didn't play in an era in which teams with a 30-52 record were shooting .504 either. In fact, he played in leagues that shot as low as .410.

As for the 71 rpg...give me the team that did that. And I don't want you to include TEAM rebounds, which were recorded until after the 67-68 season. In actuality, Chamberlain played in leagues that averaged as high as 65 rpg, and as low as 50.6 rpg.

BTW, in the 72-73 post-season, which was Wilt's LAST, he averaged 22.5 rpg, in a post-season NBA which averaged 50.6 rpg. Put Wilt in this PAST post-season, and he STILL would have averaged nearly 19 rpg.

Of course, at his peak, Chamberlain, and against RUSSELL, Chamberlain had three games in the '67 ECF's in which he not only badly outrebounded Russell, (by margins of 32-15, 41-29, and 36-21), he did so in those games with total rebound percenatges of 28, 29, and 30%. And in that series, he was at 25%.

[jlauber]

Film Don't Lie.

Larry Bird: Business As Usual (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbDdnm3F1A&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Kobe Bryant: Greatness Personified (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Shaq: Black Tornado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78OKzsP8oYA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

:bowdown:

And NONE of them were anywhere near the all-around great player that Chamberlain was.

My god, Chamberlain faced Russell in 143 H2H games, and not only averaged 28.7 ppg, and 28.7 rpg against him, he outshot him by a about a .500 to .400 margin. Think about that...Wilt nearly averaged a 30-30 .500 game EVERY time he stepped on the court against Russell.

[CavaliersFTW]

Film Don't Lie.

Larry Bird: Business As Usual (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxbDdnm3F1A&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Kobe Bryant: Greatness Personified (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Shaq: Black Tornado (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78OKzsP8oYA&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

:bowdown:

Your right, it don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDzzxVE34k

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

Your right, it don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDzzxVE34k

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
Jlauber Chamberlain is getting hard

[Deuce Bigalow]

And NONE of them were anywhere near the all-around great player that Chamberlain was.

My god, Chamberlain faced Russell in 143 H2H games, and not only averaged 28.7 ppg, and 28.7 rpg against him, he outshot him by a about a .500 to .400 margin. Think about that...Wilt nearly averaged a 30-30 .500 game EVERY time he stepped on the court against Russell.
:roll: :roll: :roll: Just like in the video Oh lawd


And NONE of them were anywhere near the all-around great player that Chamberlain was.
lol

[coin24]

Your right, it don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDzzxVE34k

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


He looks like a man playing against school kids..

How the fu*k didnt he win more titles then????!!

[jlauber]

Your right, it don't: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVDzzxVE34k

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

That was a past-his-prime Chamberlain who STILL dominated the NBA. He probably had more blocks in that 8 minute video than Bird or Kobe did in their entire careers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I agree. Duncan and Shaq faced FAR more PATSIES in their post-season careers,
You mean guys that were actually big men

while Bird lived in the "defenseless 80's",
No, the league was actually TALENTED.

and Kobe shrunk dramatically in his Finals.
And somehow came away a Champ 5x

[Deuce Bigalow]

He looks like a man playing against school kids..

How the fu*k didnt he win more titles then????!!
Exactly.
He played with 6 HOFers, and 5 players voted in as the 50 greatest players of alltime in '96
He had the best player in the NBA in 1968-69 and 1969-70 (West) and did not win titles any of those years

But here comes jlauber with an essay full of excuses

[CavaliersFTW]

He looks like a man playing against school kids..

How the fu*k didnt he win more titles then????!!
Cause good teams also played in the 60's and early 70's. (60's Celtics Dynasty, early 70's Knicks and early 70's Bucks). Some of those teams were among the best ever. Also, sometimes just plain bad luck such as injuries to starting lineups like West/Baylor/Erickson in '71

[Deuce Bigalow]

jlauber, how do you feel about those 4 guys all accomplishing more in their careers than Wilt?

[jlauber]

Exactly.
He played with 6 HOFers, and 5 players voted in as the 50 greatest players of alltime in '96
He had the best player in the NBA in 1968-69 and 1969-70 (West) and did not win titles any of those years

But here comes jlauber with an essay full of excuses

Just to give you an idea...

Chamberlain had a TOTAL of 24 FULL seasons (relatively full, and not like Baylor's 2 games in '71 and 9 games in '72) in which he played alongside HOF players.

Russell had 71 FULL seasons with his HOF teammates.

[Hands of Iron]

He looks like a man playing against school kids..

How the fu*k didnt he win more titles then????!!

Bird looks like an unathletic white boy dominating solely on Skill, IQ and instinct.

Larry Bird will Destroy You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4&feature=youtube_gdata_player) with his incredible passing ability and court vision.

:applause:

[jlauber]

jlauber, how do you feel about those 4 guys all accomplishing more in their careers than Wilt?

TEAM game. MJ didn't win jack until Pippen, Grant, and Paxson arrived, and then won three more titles with Pippen, Rodman, Kerr, and Kukoc.

Kareem won ONE title in the 70's (and only two Finals in that decade), and it was arguably the weakest era for champions in NBA history. It wasn't until he was paired with MAGIC that he won five more.

Kobe didn't win any titles without Shaq or Gasol.

Bird played with HOF-laden rosters his ENTIRE career...and won ONE more ring than Chamberlain did.

Duncan had a losing record against Kobe in the post-season, and we all know what knid of Finals performer Kobe was. BTW, care to post Kobe's LAST game in each of his seasons? You will be hard-pressed to find a player who shot so miserably, and was involved in more blowout clinching loss games than Kobe.

Wilt dominated his opposing centers in the vast majority of his 29 post-season series. No other all-time great, other than perhaps MJ, can make that claim.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Bird looks like an unathletic white boy dominating solely on Skill, IQ and instinct.

Larry Bird will Destroy You (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4&feature=youtube_gdata_player) with his incredible passing ability and court vision.

:applause:
Bird is probably the most impressive player of all-time since he dominated without any athletic advantages, but with pure skill and smarts. The dude doesn't look anymore athletic than the average Joe :lol Yet dominated the NBA so easily and smooth.

[jlauber]

Bird is probably the most impressive player of all-time since he dominated without any athletic advantages, but with pure skill and smarts. The dude doesn't look anymore athletic than the average Joe :lol Yet dominated the NBA so easily and smooth.

Just curious...what do think of 6-10 240 lb. Moses Malone then? He could barely jump high enough to dunk.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Just curious...what do think of 6-10 240 lb. Moses Malone then?
I don't know, I haven't really seen any of his highlights.

He could barely jump high enough to dunk.
he was atleast strong, that is a physical advantage. Bird was not strong.

[jlauber]

I don't know, I haven't really seen any of his highlights.

Well, he was nowhere near as tall as Kareem, nor as skilled, nor as athletic...and yet...


How great was Moses Malone? The 6-10 center faced the 7-2 Kareem in 40 total games from the 76-77 season, thru Kareem's last season in 88-89.

Some here claim that Kareem's peak was in that 76-77 season, although I strongly believe that the most dominant Kareem played in the early 70's. His statistical peak came in the 70-71, 71-72, and 72-73 seasons.

Kareem was 29 in the 76-77 season, while Moses was 21. However, Moses jumped right to the ABA at age 19, so he was already in his third professional season by the time the two first met.

Now, granted, the two probably did not exclusively defend each other in every game, nor were they on the floor at the same time in portions of those games.

There are several interesting aspects to this "rivalry." I am only posting the known stats that I could find, and perhaps there are some here who can provide even more info. I did come up with every one of their scoring H2H's, all 40 of them. However, I could only find their FG%'s and rebounding numbers in their last 16 games.

And overall, Kareem team's went 21-19 against Moses, which was surprising, since Kareem played with much more talented teams in nearly all of their 13 seasons in the league together. In facr, Moses only played on ONE team that ever had a better record than Kareem, in those 13 seasons.

However, while Kareem's teams enjoyed 20-13 margin in their regular season H2H's, Moses' team went 6-1 against Kareem's in the post-season. BTW, Kareem's team's were often leveled in the post-season, despite having better regular season records. Included in those post-season H2H's, was the 80-81 Rockets, at 40-42, beating Kareem's 54-28 (Magic was injured and missed 37 games that season), 2-1 in the first round of the playoffs. And, of course, Moses' 82-83 Sixers, which went 65-17 swept Kareem's 58-24 Lakers, 4-0. That was the ONLY season in which Moses had a more talented roster, and they were clearly better, going a combined 6-0 against Kareem's team in the overall season. However, Kareem did miss one of their regular season H2H's that year, so Moses only went 5-0 against him that year.

How about their personal battles? While a much more prime Kareem, at age 29, outscored the 21 year old Moses in their first year H2H's, it was not a dramatic difference. Kareem outscored him in three of their four games, but his high game was only 29 points. And, by their fourth game that season, Moses outscored Kareem, 26-23.

Another interesting aspect was that while both players started declining somewhat after the 84-85 season, Moses' decline was sharper. Still. Moses generally outplayed Kareem even after that. But, Moses was not the dominant player that he was from the 78-79 season thru the 84-85 season.

And while Kareem won the MVP award in the 79-80 season, Moses was probably already the better player. In the 78-79 season, a 23 year old Moses exploded, and averaged 24.8 ppg, on .540 shooting, with an astonishing 17.6 rpg average (winning the rebounding title by nearly 5 per game.) Kareem averaged 23.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, 5.4 apg, and shot .577. In Kareem's 79-80 MVP season, Abdul-Jabbar averaged 24.8 ppg, on a sensational .604 shooting, but was on a severe decline in the rebounding department, only getting 10.8 rpg. Meanwhile, Moses was at 25.8 ppg, .502 shooting, and grabbing 14.5 rpg. BUT, H2H in that Kareem MVP season, Moses DRAMATICALLY outscored Kareem, by an average margin of 30 ppg to 20 ppg. And, I have no doubt that he probably dominated Kareem on the glass, as well.

From that 79-80 season, on, Moses was CLEARLY the better player. While Kareem's numbers continued to decline, Moses jusr DOMINATED the league. From the 80-81 season thru the 84-85 season, Moses was THE best player in the league (sorry Larry and Magic, but Moses was UNSTOPPABLE.) He LED the league in rebounding EVERY season in those five years, and and scoring seasons as high as 27.8 ppg, and even 31.1 ppg.

And, the Kareem-Moses H2H's, from the 79-80 thru the 84-85 seasons reflected Moses COMPLETE DOMINATION of Kareem, as well.

After that, both declined, and while Moses generally outplayed Kareem, neither were putting up spectacular numbers.

In any case, in their 40 H2H games, Moses held a staggering 25-12-3 margin in their scoring battles. Not only that, but in their 7 playoff games, Moses enjoyed a solid 5-2 edge. And, Moses held a whopping 11-6 margin in 30+ point games against Kareem.

Kareem's two highest games against Moses were 34 and 36. Meanwhile, Moses had games of 34, 34, 35, 36, 37, 37, 38, and 39 against Kareem. And in their post-season H2H's, Moses held a 2-1 edge in 30+ point games (Kareem's high was 32, while Moses had games of 33, and even 38 in their playoff battles.)

Rebounding? As expected, Moses just CRUSHED Kareem on the glass. In the known 16 games in which I could find their rebounding totals, Moses went an unbelieveable 16-0 against Kareem. And some were by HUGE margins. For instance, in the '83 Finals, Moses not only outrebounded Kareem, 4-0, he held a MASSIVE 18-8 rpg differential.

Not only that, but given the fact that Moses was a better rebounder in EVERY season in their 13 years in the league together, there was a very good chance that Moses won the VAST MAJORITY of their rebounding H2H's. I wouldn't be surprised if the overall margin was something like a 35-5 edge (or maybe even higher.)

Kareem did SLIGHTLY outshoot Moses from the floor in those 16 H2H games, but it was very close, and overall, Kareem shot .523 in those 16 games (again, from the 82-83 season thru the 88-89 season.) Moses shot .472 overall in those last 16 H2H games.

All of which is interesting. For instance, in Kareem's 84-85 and 85-86 seasons, against Moses, he averaged 22 ppg on .513 shooting from the field against Moses in their four H2H's. Against a 22 and 23 year old Hakeem, in those two seasons, and covering 10 H2H games, Kareem averaged 31.8 ppg on a mind-boggling .630 shooting. Meanwhile, Moses averaged 23 ppg on .484 shooting against Kareem, all while outrebounding him by an average differential of 12-5 rpg.

So, for those that question Moses's defense, they had better take a closer look. He was clearly a FORCE against Kareem. Once again, Moses' dodged Kareem's truly dominant seasons ('71-73), but even a young Moses was a near match for a near prime Kareem. And a PRIME Moses just ABUSED an older Kareem (even in a Kareem MVP season in 79-80.)

[CavaliersFTW]

You guys going on about Wilt thinkin he faced "weak" competition - and Jlauber slammin u with mountains of text :lol

All I got to say is 1967 NBA finals... vs this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwS6dxlR6g

[coin24]

Wilt looks like one of those guys that just plays cause hes tall and can dominate smaller people. Bird and especially Kobe have spent years working on there skillsets and had/have intense hunger to win.. I just dont see that with Wilt..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Watch the Kobe video, mid range, 3, footwork, ballhandling etc etc.. Shit hes worked on.. Not being 2 feet taller than everyone and dunking/rebounding/blocking midgets:facepalm
Also, given that Wilt had these advantages, its even WORSE that he only won 2 titles...

Im not saying Wilt wasnt dominant, clearly he was. I just think in terms of overall skills and accomplishments guys like Kobe Bird Magic Jordan KAJ Russell should be ranked higher than Wilt..

Its almost like any of us playing against 12 year olds on an 8 foot rim, you think any great "team" could win?

[jlauber]

You guys going on about Wilt thinkin he faced "weak" competition :lol

1967 NBA finals... vs this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwS6dxlR6g

Thurmond was a full 6-11, and would be listed at 7-0+ in today's NBA. Not only that, but incredibly, he had a higher reach than Wilt.

And, in the '67 Finals, Chamberlain dominated Thurmond. He outrebounded him in five of the six games, easilt outscored him, and outshot him by an unfathmable .560 to .343 margin. Incidently, Thurmond finished second in the MVP balloting that season, which would be the highest of his career.

[Hands of Iron]

Bird is probably the most impressive player of all-time since he dominated without any athletic advantages, but with pure skill and smarts. The dude doesn't look anymore athletic than the average Joe :lol Yet dominated the NBA so easily and smooth.

Well, I don't think it's possible to rate him anywhere outside the top three in terms of skills alone. How could you, given his production coupled with the fact he's by far the least athletically gifted of anybody with a serious case for the Top 15?

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt looks like one of those guys that just plays cause hes tall and can dominate smaller people. Bird and especially Kobe have spent years working on there skillsets and had/have intense hunger to win.. I just dont see that with Wilt..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyKgaeAoa-g&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Watch the Kobe video, mid range, 3, footwork, ballhandling etc etc.. Shit hes worked on.. Not being 2 feet taller than everyone and dunking/rebounding/blocking midgets:facepalm
Also, given that Wilt had these advantages, its even WORSE that he only won 2 titles...

Im not saying Wilt wasnt dominant, clearly he was. I just think in terms of overall skills and accomplishments guys like Kobe Bird Magic Jordan KAJ Russell should be ranked higher than Wilt..
Its almost like any of us playing against 12 year olds on an 8 foot rim, you think any great "team" could win?
:facepalm

It's almost like you are just trolling

http://youtu.be/YVDzzxVE34k?t=3m58s
^--- who is that guy?

[Deuce Bigalow]

You guys going on about Wilt thinkin he faced "weak" competition - and Jlauber slammin u with mountains of text :lol

All I got to say is 1967 NBA finals... vs this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwS6dxlR6g
lol at doing the skyhook on Kareem
and nice defense Wilt by letting him shoot open jumpers

[Hands of Iron]

You guys going on about Wilt thinkin he faced "weak" competition - and Jlauber slammin u with mountains of text :lol

All I got to say is 1967 NBA finals... vs this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwS6dxlR6g

I haven't seriously said a bad word about Chamberlain. I'm playing along after jlauber spent several pages and hours relentlessly attacking Larry Bird trying to tell everybody how shit he was. :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well, he was nowhere near as tall as Kareem, nor as skilled, nor as athletic...and yet...
Jesus, you love to type.

[jlauber]

lol at doing the skyhook on Kareem
and nice defense Wilt by letting him shoot open jumpers

Chamberlain not only badly outrebounded Nate in their three H2H post-season series, he outshot him by margins of .500 top .392; .550 to .398; and that .560 to .343 margin in Nate's greatest season.

[CavaliersFTW]

I haven't seriously said a bad word about Chamberlain. I'm playing along after jlauber spent several pages and hours relentlessly attacking Larry Bird trying to tell everybody how shit he was. :lol
whaaaaat? :lol

Bird is the best SF of all time tho, JL really? C'mon u don't need to disparage a guy like Bird to build Wilt's case, c'mon your better than that :lol

[Hands of Iron]

Thurmond was a full 6-11, and would be listed at 7-0+ in today's NBA. Not only that, but incredibly, he had a higher reach than Wilt.

And, in the '67 Finals, Chamberlain dominated Thurmond. He outrebounded him in five of the six games, easilt outscored him, and outshot him by an unfathmable .560 to .343 margin. Incidently, Thurmond finished second in the MVP balloting that season, which would be the highest of his career.

:D

[Deuce Bigalow]

Chamberlain not only badly outrebounded Nate in their three H2H post-season series, he outshot him by margins of .500 top .392; .550 to .398; and that .560 to .343 margin in Nate's greatest season.
Damn, just by looking at Nates stats and the rest of the league
The majority are offensive scrubs tbh

Nate averaged 15 ppg on nearly 14 shots, and he's a big man.

[Hands of Iron]

Chamberlain dominated opposing Centers as well as various wildlife such as Mountain Lions with ruthless efficiency.

[jlauber]

I haven't seriously said a bad word about Chamberlain. I'm playing along after jlauber spent several pages and hours relentlessly attacking Larry Bird trying to tell everybody how shit he was. :lol

Well, in that Bird vs. MJ thread, it was getting pretty hard to swallow when Jordan was not as great as he would become; Bird was at his absolute best; and Bird was playing with a full deck, while Jordan was the lone ace in his. And, then MAGIC is seldom even mentioned...and yet he was winning MVPs in the late 80's.

But what irritates me even more, are the Bird-fans, the Kareem-fans, and the Hakeem-fans bashing Chamberlain as a choking loser. Sorry if I hit you while I was aiming for them, but as great as Bird was, he was not as dominant as Wilt. The NBA didn't have to come up with SEVERAL rules intended to reduce Bird's domination.

[CavaliersFTW]

Damn, just by looking at Nates stats and the rest of the league
The majority are offensive scrubs tbh

Nate averaged 15 ppg on nearly 14 shots, and he's a big man.
lol Nate jacked up 3 pointers before the 3 point line even existed... look @ 1:58, during the 1967 NBA finals a 23 foot shot, Jerry West wouldn't even go out that far :lol #YOLO

[jlauber]

Damn, just by looking at Nates stats and the rest of the league
The majority are offensive scrubs tbh

Nate averaged 15 ppg on nearly 14 shots, and he's a big man.

Thurmond would go on to OUTSCORE and OUTSHOOT Kareem in the 72 WCF's, as well as hold him to somewhere around .430 shooting overall in their 43 career H2H's.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Well, in that Bird vs. MJ thread, it was getting pretty hard to swallow when Jordan was not as great as he would become; Bird was at his absolute best; and Bird was playing with a full deck, while Jordan was the lone ace in his. And, then MAGIC is seldom even mentioned...and yet he was winning MVPs in the late 80's.

But what irritates me even more, are the Bird-fans, the Kareem-fans, and the Hakeem-fans bashing Chamberlain as a choking loser. Sorry if I hit you while I was aiming for them, but as great as Bird was, he was not as dominant as Wilt. The NBA didn't have to come up with SEVERAL rules intended to reduce Bird's domination.
George Mikan caused a great amount of rule changes. It's not because of how good he or Wilt was. It was because of the era they played. Unless you think Mikan > Bird since he caused rule changes. But let's be honest here, Javale McGee would be dominant in Wilt's era.

[jlauber]

whaaaaat? :lol

Bird is the best SF of all time tho, JL really? C'mon u don't need to disparage a guy like Bird to build Wilt's case, c'mon your better than that :lol

I have Bird anywhere from 8th to 11th all-time (and with Lebron right behind at #12.)

Sorry if that offends some here, but I don't see him having much of a case over Shaq's or Duncan's careers...and he has NO case over Kareem, Magic, MJ, Russell, or Wilt.

And, yes, barring injury, Lebron will pass him, as well. He is already one FMVP and two rings away, and with better overall stats, even in the post-season.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Thurmond would go on to OUTSCORE and OUTSHOOT Kareem in the 72 WCF's, as well as hold him to somewhere around .430 shooting overall in their 43 career H2H's.
The same Kareem that just more than tripled Wilt's PPG

[Hands of Iron]

Well, in that Bird vs. MJ thread, it was getting pretty hard to swallow when Jordan was not as great as he would become; Bird was at his absolute best; and Bird was playing with a full deck, while Jordan was the lone ace in his. And, then MAGIC is seldom even mentioned...and yet he was winning MVPs in the late 80's.

But what irritates me even more, are the Bird-fans, the Kareem-fans, and the Hakeem-fans bashing Chamberlain as a choking loser. Sorry if I hit you while I was aiming for them, but as great as Bird was, he was not as dominant as Wilt. The NBA didn't have to come up with SEVERAL rules intended to reduce Bird's domination.

The agenda in the OP of that thread was admittedly terrible. Still found that stretch a bit fascinating since MJ was just running through everybody by '87 and '88 and no matter what the circumstances, I'd bet nobody came relatively close to playing as great as Bird did over that stretch in comparison to Jordan. He blew out his back the following season and using 85 or 86 is damn near useless. I guess you could say it was the only time span over which they were both as close to prime as you could find. Grain of salt really, but interesting.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I have Bird anywhere from 8th to 11th all-time (and with Lebron right behind at #12.)

Sorry if that offends some here, but I don't see him having much of a case over Shaq's or Duncan's careers...and he has NO case over Kareem, Magic, MJ, Russell, or Wilt.

And, yes, barring injury, Lebron will pass him, as well. He is already one FMVP and two rings away, and with better overall stats, even in the post-season.
Lebron is well on his way to overtake Wilt for 10th alltime. 1 more ring and he's tied with 2.

[jlauber]

George Mikan caused a great amount of rule changes. It's not because of how good he or Wilt was. It was because of the era they played. Unless you think Mikan > Bird since he caused rule changes. But let's be honest here, Javale McGee would be dominant in Wilt's era.

He would probably be about the 14th best center in a 17 team league in the early 70's. And he would be completely outclassed by centers like McAdoo, Lanier, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, Reed, Bellamy, Thurmond, Kareem, and Chamberlain. As well as an ABA Gilmore.

And I could have been just as nonsensical as yourself, and claimed that the closest that he would have gotten to an NBA team in the 70's would be in selling popcorn.

[CavaliersFTW]

George Mikan caused a great amount of rule changes. It's not because of how good he or Wilt was. It was because of the era they played. Unless you think Mikan > Bird since he caused rule changes. But let's be honest here, Javale McGee would be dominant in Wilt's era.
:biggums:

Against which centers would he prove himself to be dominant? Reed? Cowens? Bellamy? Thurmond? Unseld? Hayes? Jabbar? Javale at best could be a rich mans Leroy Ellis], he's too much of a bonehead to go toe to toe with great 60's and early 70's centers

[jlauber]

The same Kareem that just more than tripled Wilt's PPG

And was UNIVERSALLY proclaimed (even by the Milwaukee press) as having been OUTPLAYED by an old Chamberlain. BTW, Time Magazine claimed that Wilt DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in that series.

But, hey, you already KNEW all of that, since I just ripped you with it in another thread.

[Deuce Bigalow]

:biggums:

Against which centers would he prove himself to be dominant? Reed? Cowens? Bellamy? Thurmond? Unseld? Hayes? Jabbar? Javale at best could be a rich mans Leroy Ellis], he's too much of a bonehead to go toe to toe with great 60's and early 70's centers
Great centers in the 60s?

Like who other than Wilt, Russ, and Walt?

A 6'8" 220 pounder who can't jump as high, isn't athletic as McGee, and isn't near the height and length?

[Hands of Iron]

I have Bird anywhere from 8th to 11th all-time (and with Lebron right behind at #12.)

Sorry if that offends some here, but I don't see him having much of a case over Shaq's or Duncan's careers...and he has NO case over Kareem, Magic, MJ, Russell, or Wilt.

And, yes, barring injury, Lebron will pass him, as well. He is already one FMVP and two rings away, and with better overall stats, even in the post-season.

Well lettuce hope Kobe and the gang can put a stop to it in its tracks. Nah, really wouldn't bother me either way. Bird's name isn't going anywhere regardless of where somebody subjectively rates him on an all-time list. He's too significant historically along with Magic to ever fall off the map.

[jlauber]

Well lettuce hope Kobe and the gang can put a stop to it in its tracks. Nah, really wouldn't bother me either way. Bird's name isn't going anywhere regardless of where somebody subjectively rates him on an all-time list. He's too significant historically along with Magic to ever fall off the map.

Agreed.

:cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

And was UNIVERSALLY proclaimed (even by the Milwaukee press) as having been OUTPLAYED by an old Chamberlain. BTW, Time Magazine claimed that Wilt DECISIVELY OUTPLAYED Kareem in that series.

But, hey, you already KNEW all of that, since I just ripped you with it in another thread.
Hey, they got to give Wilt some love. Kareem already had as much rings as Wilt did in his entire career in '72.

[jlauber]

Great centers in the 60s?

Like who other than Wilt, Russ, and Walt?

A 6'8" 220 pounder who can't jump as high, isn't athletic as McGee, and isn't near the height and length?

Who is the better player right now...the 6-9 Kevin Love, or the 7-0 Javale McGee?

Why? Because the 6-8 Jerry Lucas was Kevin Love long before Kevin Love was.

[CavaliersFTW]

Great centers in the 60s?

Like who other than Wilt, Russ, and Walt?

A 6'8" 220 pounder who can't jump as high, isn't athletic as McGee, and isn't near the height and length?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwS6dxlR6g

^---- ?

+ Reed?

In a 9 team league!?

[jlauber]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pwS6dxlR6g

^---- ?

+ Reed?

In a 9 team league!?

Don't forget the 6-9 Zelmo Beaty...who probably gave Chamberlain more fits than any of them.

[CavaliersFTW]

Who is the better player right now...the 6-9 Kevin Love, or the 7-0 Javale McGee?

Why? Because the 6-8 Jerry Lucas was Kevin Love long before Kevin Love was.

(Barefoot)

Kevin Love 6-7.75 virtually identical to Jerry Lucas 6-7.5 and after Love lost weight their playing weights became identical too

[Hands of Iron]

Agreed.

:cheers:

Just as the majority of Wilt's records and his rivalry with Russell pretty much guarantee the same for him, from both objective and subjective observers. Did you think that book that came out detailing their Rivalry was slanted or biased in any way? I bought it off Amazon and let a friend borrow it. Still havent got it back.

[jlauber]

BTW, and for those that may have missed this...

Wilt faced the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier in 11 H2H games in their 71-72 and 72-73 seasons (Wilt's LAST two seasons.) Lanier was already a great player by that 71-72 season, with a career high 25.7 ppg average.

In any case, here are Wilt's numbers...


71-72

1. 26 pts. 15 rebs. 11-14
2. 31 pts. 31 rebs. 15-22
3. 29 pts. 18 rebs. 13-17
4. 30 pts. 21 rebs. 14-18
5. 28 pts. 14 rebs. 10-13

144 pts. 89 rebs. 63-84

28.8 ppg 17.8 rpg .750 FG%

72-73

1. 22 pts. 19 rebs. 10-12
2. 21 pts. 21 rebs. 9-10
3. 14 pts 9 rebs 7-8
4. 18 pts unknown unknown
5. 22 pts. 14 rebs. 11-15
6. 22 pts. 13 rebs. 9-10

119 pts. in six games
76 rebs in five games
46-55 in five games

19.8 ppg 15.2 rpg .836 FG%

11 games


23.9 ppg

10 games

16.5 rpg

10 games


109-139 .784 FG%



BTW, Lanier had some big games against Wilt, too. But this was interesting from the standpoint that this was a well-past his peak Chamberlain, and in seasons in which he hardly shot the ball, averaging 24 ppg on .784 shooting over the course of 11 straight games, against a 6-11 HOFer.

[CavaliersFTW]

Just as the majority of Wilt's records and his rivalry with Russell pretty much guarantee the same for him, from both objective and subjective observers. Did you think that book that came out detailing their Rivalry was slanted or biased in any way? I bought it off Amazon and let a friend borrow it. Still havent got it back.
I read it, and I really enjoyed it and highly recommend it. And I personally didn't find it overly slanted. It doesn't paint Wilt in the brightest light but then again, it doesn't try to disparage him either. The book explains why he lost a lot of series from behind the scenes problems (and the reasons aren't ever "choking"). He was larger than life both on and off the court, he had a massive ego. It got in the way of coach/player relationships many times. But it doesn't take away how dominant he was. And when things clicked with his coaches and teammates? Look out.

[jlauber]

I read it, and I really enjoyed it and highly recommend it. And I personally didn't find it overly slanted. It doesn't paint Wilt in the brightest light but then again, it doesn't try to disparage him either. The book explains why he lost a lot of series from behind the scenes problems (and the reasons aren't ever "choking"). He was larger than life both on and off the court, he had a massive ego. It got in the way of coach/player relationships many times. But it doesn't take away how dominant he was. And when things clicked with his coaches and teammates? Look out.

Prett much what I took from it, as well. And far better reporting than the idiotic Simmons' take in the "Book of Basketball (lies.)"

[Hands of Iron]

:lol

Havent read Simmons book but I'd bet he has Wilt outside of the Top 5.

[Psileas]

BTW, and for those that may have missed this...

Wilt faced the 6-11 HOFer Bob Lanier in 11 H2H games in their 71-72 and 72-73 seasons (Wilt's LAST two seasons.) Lanier was already a great player by that 71-72 season, with a career high 25.7 ppg average.

In any case, here are Wilt's numbers...



BTW, Lanier had some big games against Wilt, too. But this was interesting from the standpoint that this was a well-past his peak Chamberlain, and in seasons in which he hardly shot the ball, averaging 24 ppg on .784 shooting over the course of 11 straight games, against a 6-11 HOFer.

LOL, Wilt's worst shooting noight against Lanier was at 68% FG, and it happened to be a vintage 30/30 game.

[Optimus Prime]

I got Wilt at #2 behind MJ. He was just so dominant it was unbelievable. If he had the most stacked team ever in any sport like Russell did he would have won as many if not more rings than Russell.

:kobe:

[Owl]

I read it, and I really enjoyed it and highly recommend it. And I personally didn't find it overly slanted. It doesn't paint Wilt in the brightest light but then again, it doesn't try to disparage him either. The book explains why he lost a lot of series from behind the scenes problems (and the reasons aren't ever "choking"). He was larger than life both on and off the court, he had a massive ego. It got in the way of coach/player relationships many times. But it doesn't take away how dominant he was. And when things clicked with his coaches and teammates? Look out.

Prett much what I took from it, as well. And far better reporting than the idiotic Simmons' take in the "Book of Basketball (lies.)"
I read it and enjoyed it. I would add a caveat though. As I recall near the end it says something along the lines of

"they both achieved what they wanted/set out to achieve, for Russell wins and for Wilt stats"

which felt like, at best, large oversimplification.


:lol

Havent read Simmons book but I'd bet he has Wilt outside of the Top 5.
He has him 6th in both editions (there were some shakeups in the paperback including Kobe leaping from 15th to 8th and Iverson down from 29th to 37th). That's the lowest Wilt has been on a published list that I've seen. Slam's '97 list had him at 5 (but they've placed him at 2 in their last two lists in '09 and '11) and Pete Vecsey had him at 4 in '96 as did Beckett in 2010. Other than that he's been consensus top 3.

And Simmons doesn't hate Wilt as much his editor (reffered to Grumpy Old Editor) does who says this "Today, Wilt would be like one of those hapless Georgetown centers throwing up bricks and racking up dumb fouls (except, of course when he got four and went to sleep). Without and offensive game more than five feet from the hoop, he'd be lucky to rack up 12 and 9"
To which even Simmons responds "Yeesh".
This in a footnote response to Simmons' discussion of how players pre '76 would translate to the modern era being accounted for in his rankings. He suggests "superior talent, smarter defenses, complex coaching strategies and unfavorable-for-him rule changes" mean "hell would freeze over before '62 Wilt scored 100 in a single game" and that Chamberlain "might average a 20-10 or even a 25-14 nowadays"

[Colbertnation64]

Just something quick.

I've seen a lot in this thread that Chamberlains points came from height not skill. Chamberlain did dunk, he had some fierce put back dunks but he didn't rely on his height like most people think.

Most of points came from his post fade away, finger roll, and hook shot. When he was scoring in high volumes in the early 60's, he was doing it with those moves not by dunking over everyone. CavsFTW could correct me, but it seems he didn't really start using his physical advantage on offense until his Laker. I say that because I can't recall ever seeing him score off a post fade away in a Laker uniform. It seemed to be lots of finger rolls and dunks but I could be wrong.
Here's a jumper
http://imgur.com/epmwv.png

Fade away in the post
http://i.imgur.com/9yCMD.png

[Colbertnation64]

"hell would freeze over before '62 Wilt scored 100 in a single game" and that Chamberlain "might average a 20-10 or even a 25-14 nowadays"


LOL because 25-14 is horrible for a center today? Seems like he tried to use it as an insult when 25-14 is pretty dominate :oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I got Wilt at #2 behind MJ. He was just so dominant it was unbelievable. If he had the most stacked team ever in any sport like Russell did he would have won as many if not more rings than Russell.

:kobe:
Huh?

He had the most stacked team in 1968-69 and 1969-70 and did not win the championship any of those years.
The 1969 Celtics (who beat Wilt's team that year in the Finals) had Bill Russell in his last NBA season, Sam Jones in his last NBA season, No Bob Cousy he retired a while ago. So their 3 main stars of the Boston dynasty were either in their last season, or retired. They did not even win 50 games in the regular season and were the 4th seed in the East. The Lakers had HCA and were the 1st seed in the West. They took a 2-0 series lead, but it was another playoff failure by Wilt Chamberlain. His teammate Jerry West averaged 37.9 PPG in that NBA Finals series, that's the 2nd highest ever behind MJ's 41 PPG. Jerry was the best player in the league at the time.

[CavaliersFTW]

Just something quick.

I've seen a lot in this thread that Chamberlains points came from height not skill. Chamberlain did dunk, he had some fierce put back dunks but he didn't rely on his height like most people think.

Most of points came from his post fade away, finger roll, and hook shot. When he was scoring in high volumes in the early 60's, he was doing it with those moves not by dunking over everyone. CavsFTW could correct me, but it seems he didn't really start using his physical advantage on offense until his Laker. I say that because I can't recall ever seeing him score off a post fade away in a Laker uniform. It seemed to be lots of finger rolls and dunks but I could be wrong. Here's a jumper
http://imgur.com/epmwv.png

Fade away in the post
http://i.imgur.com/9yCMD.png
Coach Alex Hannum asked Wilt to delete the fade-away shot from his offensive repertoire at the beginning of the 1967 season on the Philadelphia 76ers because the team had too many good shooters for Wilt to be shooting shots like that (he is out of place for rebounds when he does it). He shoots it a few times in highlights with the Lakers in '69 (While being coached by a guy he loathed) but after that he seems to retire the shot for good. He tries it once in the 1969 NBA all star game and misses, I think after he bulked up and stopped doing it for 2 seasons on the 76ers he just couldn't get it going any more and lost the touch for it.

[Psileas]

Coach Alex Hannum asked Wilt to delete the fade-away shot from his offensive repertoire at the beginning of the 1967 season on the Philadelphia 76ers because the team had too many good shooters for Wilt to be shooting shots like that (he is out of place for rebounds when he does it). He shoots it a few times in highlights with the Lakers in '69 (While being coached by a guy he loathed) but after that he seems to retire the shot for good. He tries it once in the 1969 NBA all star game and misses, I think after he bulked up and stopped doing it for 2 seasons on the 76ers he just couldn't get it going any more and lost the touch for it.

Old habits die hard, though. There are still clips of him performing fade-aways here and there as a Laker, not with bad accuracy, although he was taking them at visibly reduced speed. For example, in that 1971 playoff game vs the Bulls that you posted, he did take 1-2 such shots.

[NumberSix]

Your legacy consist of more than just team accomplishments. Individual accomplishment counts too. There's a reason why Kobe is regarded higher than Derek Fisher who has the exact same 5 championships.

[ILLsmak]

This guy should have scored 70 ppg then.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-RvHRyLzXHGQ/T27NVXjfPOI/AAAAAAAAAlI/rGarWZFC7ow/s1600/Manute+Bol.jpg


He might have in 1960...

-Smak

[Legends66NBA7]

If he had the most stacked team ever in any sport like Russell did he would have won as many if not more rings than Russell.

:kobe:

Both Wilt's 67 Sixers and 72 Lakers were more stacked than any Bill Russell led team, with superior star power as well.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Your legacy consist of more than just team accomplishments. Individual accomplishment counts too. There's a reason why Kobe is regarded higher than Derek Fisher who has the exact same 5 championships.
Those 4 players have more Championships, more Finals MVPs, more All-NBA First Teams, more All-NBA Teams, more All-Star selections.

[jlauber]

Those 4 players have more Championships, more Finals MVPs, more All-NBA First Teams, more All-NBA Teams, more All-Star selections.

How about MVP's? And while we are at it, let's give Chamberlain his DESERVED MVP in '62 (BTW, he was voted first-team all-NBA ahead of Russell that year.) And Wilt SHOULD have won it in '64, as well. AND, since Russell somehow stole it from Chamberlain in '62, then Wilt should have won it '72 over Kareem, as well.

And how about the RECORD BOOK? I would be willing to bet that Wilt holds more RECORDS than ALL of those players...COMBINED.

Chamberlain was just a more dominant all-around player.

BTW, had the FMVP award existed in '67, Chamberlain would have been a UNANIMOUS winner.

[RRR3]

OP=
http://rlv.zcache.com/img/imt-prd/pd-137299890145917137/isz-m/at-238560305421145726/realview.jpg?urbanimage_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urban dictionary.com%2Fproducts.image.php%3Fdefid%3D5081 800%26greeting_card_outside%3D1&urbaninside_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.urbandictionary.c om%2Fproducts.image.php%3Fdefid%3D5081800%26greeti ng_card_inside%3D1&urbanword_txt=kobetard

[jongib369]

Both Wilt's 67 Sixers and 72 Lakers were more stacked than any Bill Russell led team, with superior star power as well.
Somewhat true but with injuries, age, a dolt of a coach (making stupid decisions) and someone if Im not mistaken known as a ball hog (baylor) I wouldn't call it even necessarily...Their is probably a reason they went on that winning streak and won the finals when he retired during the season. Think of it like this, clone every single player on the Celtics (except for Russell) including Red (a Smart coach who Wilt WOULD respect)...Put Chamberlain on that Celtic clone team and make them go head to head vs Bill's Celtics... Chamberlain either playing his 1967-68 role or 1971-72 role would beat them IMO. Could be wrong, and its a funny way that Im looking at it....Put Wilt on that laker team while they were all healthy and in there prime would be SCARY

[Deuce Bigalow]

How about MVP's? And while we are at it, let's give Chamberlain his DESERVED MVP in '62 (BTW, he was voted first-team all-NBA ahead of Russell that year.) And Wilt SHOULD have won it in '64, as well. AND, since Russell somehow stole it from Chamberlain in '62, then Wilt should have won it '72 over Kareem, as well.

And how about the RECORD BOOK? I would be willing to bet that Wilt holds more RECORDS than ALL of those players...COMBINED.

Chamberlain was just a more dominant all-around player.

BTW, had the FMVP award existed in '67, Chamberlain would have been a UNANIMOUS winner.
In '72 lol, the year Kareem averaged 32 ppg on him while Wilt averaged 10 ppg in the WCF.

Then Moses Malone should be ahead of Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan

To be honest, Wilt being ranked over Bird, Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan is like ranking Moses over Shaq, Kobe, and DUncan.
Malone has more MVPs, but less rings, fianls mvps, all-nba first teams, all-nba teams, and all-star selections than Shaq, Kobe, and Duncan.

And I don't want to here this record book stuff in that era. Please. you put Shaq in that era and he will be the record holder, same with Kobe.

[jlauber]

Both Wilt's 67 Sixers and 72 Lakers were more stacked than any Bill Russell led team, with superior star power as well.

Russell's '67 Celtics, which went 60-21, had SIX HOFers, and were TEN DEEP. Quite possibly the deepest roster in NBA history (with only his '63 Celtics challenging that squad.)

In any case, when Wilt was finally paired up with an equal supporting cast, that was healthy, they crushed Russell's Celtics.

As for his 71-72 Lakers, I agree. Probably the greatest team of all-time, especially if you take into account how they dominated EVERY team that season, including the post-season. Hell, the pounded the 63-19 Bucks, 8-3 in their 11 H2H games (including 4-2 in the playoffs.)

Here again, though, take Chamberlain off of those teams, and you have first round cannon-fodder, as was the case with the '69 Sixers, and the '74 Lakers.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Russell's '67 Celtics, which went 60-21, had SIX HOFers, and were TEN DEEP. Quite possibly the deepest roster in NBA history (with only his '63 Celtics challenging that squad.)

In any case, when Wilt was finally paired up with an equal supporting cast, that was healthy, they crushed Russell's Celtics.

As for his 71-72 Lakers, I agree. Probably the greatest team of all-time, especially if you take into account how they dominated EVERY team that season, including the post-season. Hell, the pounded the 63-19 Bucks, 8-3 in their 11 H2H games (including 4-2 in the playoffs.)

Here again, though, take Chamberlain off of those teams, and you have first round cannon-fodder, as was the case with the '69 Sixers, and the '74 Lakers.
In 1969 Russell's Celtics beat the Lakers. Even though Bill Russell was in his last season, Sam Jones was in his last season, and Bob Cousy had long been retired. That Celtic team was the 4th seed in the East and didn't even win 50 games. The Lakers had HCA. Still lost :facepalm
So no, when given the BETTER team, WIlt did not "smash" Russell's Celtics.

[CavaliersFTW]

Somewhat true but with injuries, age, a dolt of a coach (making stupid decisions) and someone if Im not mistaken known as a ball hog (baylor) I wouldn't call it even necessarily...Their is probably a reason they went on that winning streak and won the finals when he retired during the season. Think of it like this, clone every single player on the Celtics (except for Russell) including Red (a Smart coach who Wilt WOULD respect)...Put Chamberlain on that Celtic clone team and make them go head to head vs Bill's Celtics... Chamberlain either playing his 1967-68 role or 1971-72 role would beat them IMO. Could be wrong, and its a funny way that Im looking at it....Put Wilt on that laker team while they were all healthy and in there prime would be SCARY
Baylor isn't a ballhog, he's a great passing and facilitating forward esp in his late years. His game didn't mesh perfectly with Wilt's because Wilt clogged up the middle and Baylor needed space to drive but that was neither Baylors or Wilt's fault. Also, the coaches in the 67 and 72 teams were brilliant at blending the talent and containing Wilt's ego, they were not dolts. You must be thinking of the '69 Lakers coach, that was the one that hated Wilt.

[jongib369]

He might have in 1960...

-Smak
No way IMO haha... Great shot blocker like he was in the 80's but the most minutes he ever averaged was 26.1

[jongib369]

Baylor isn't a ballhog, he's a great passing and facilitating forward esp in his late years. His game didn't mesh perfectly with Wilt's because Wilt clogged up the middle and Baylor needed space to drive but that was neither Baylors or Wilt's fault. Also, the coaches in the 67 and 72 teams were brilliant at blending the talent and containing Wilt's ego, they were not dolts. You must be thinking of the '69 Lakers coach, that was the one that hated Wilt.
Yeah I meant the 69 lakers coach which would have meant more rings...and Thanks for the correction about baylor, I knew he was a good passer and his Assist numbers are good with a second look (I was thinking great passer when he wanted but held onto the ball. I know the least about him then all other players from back then so I should have looked it up before I opened my mouth lol) Idk where I heard that he was a bit of a ball hog but You've seen so much footage ill respect that. Do you think there winning streak after he retied (which i think was literally right after he retired) had anything to do with it? or would it have been a longer streak with him still on ?

[jongib369]

Baylor isn't a ballhog, he's a great passing and facilitating forward esp in his late years. His game didn't mesh perfectly with Wilt's because Wilt clogged up the middle and Baylor needed space to drive but that was neither Baylors or Wilt's fault. Also, the coaches in the 67 and 72 teams were brilliant at blending the talent and containing Wilt's ego, they were not dolts. You must be thinking of the '69 Lakers coach, that was the one that hated Wilt.
Alex Hannum and Bill Sharman were great. I meant Butch van Breda Kolff...I may not be remembering correctly but I think Wilt said something along the lines of him being the dumbest coach he ever played for lmao

[jongib369]

Even though I dont agree with you Deuce Bigalow thanks for posting threads like this....I love reading the back n forth opinions

[jlauber]

Baylor isn't a ballhog, he's a great passing and facilitating forward esp in his late years. His game didn't mesh perfectly with Wilt's because Wilt clogged up the middle and Baylor needed space to drive but that was neither Baylors or Wilt's fault. Also, the coaches in the 67 and 72 teams were brilliant at blending the talent and containing Wilt's ego, they were not dolts. You must be thinking of the '69 Lakers coach, that was the one that hated Wilt.

BAYLOR, as well as that "dolt" Van Breda Kolf were THE reasons why the '69 Lakers did not win a title.

Baylor was simply awful in games three, four, and seven...all losses. He shot 4-14 from the floor in game three, a six point loss. He then not only shot an unfathomable 2-14 from the field in the game four, one point loss, he also shot 1-6 from the LINE. Then, in the game seven, while Wilt's COACH chose to keep Chamberlain on the bench, the shot-jacking Baylor shot 8-22.

Overall, in that post-season, Baylor shot a TEAM-WORST .385 from the field.

Of course, all anyone really needs to know, was this classic line from Van Breda Kolf, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."

Van Breda Kolf was promptly fired after that game seven, and the rest of his career was a waste.

Interesting too, that Wilt's NEW coach, in the following season, immediately went to Chamberlain, and asked him to become the focal point of the offense. The result? A rejuvenated Chamberlain just pounded the league in his first nine games. A league-leading 32.2 ppg, with 20.2 rpg, and on a staggering .579 FG%.

He treated reigning MVP Wes Unseld like a red-headed step-child in their encounter that season, dumping 38 points on 16-26 shooting and with 22 rebounds. He scored 43 points on Connie Dierking (and only the season before plastered him with a 60 point game), which would be more than Kareem ever would score against Dierking. He even shelled Kareem in their only H2H before he tore his knee, with a 25-25 9-14 game.

Unfortunately, Wilt shredded his knee after that ninth game, and was never the same again.

[jlauber]

In 1969 Russell's Celtics beat the Lakers. Even though Bill Russell was in his last season, Sam Jones was in his last season, and Bob Cousy had long been retired. That Celtic team was the 4th seed in the East and didn't even win 50 games. The Lakers had HCA. Still lost :facepalm
So no, when given the BETTER team, WIlt did not "smash" Russell's Celtics.

Russell's Celtics were a far deeper team. The Lakers had a prime West, a shackled Wilt, and a shell Baylor...and nothing else. They also had a boob for a coach.

Even with all of that, they were ONE PLAY away from romping to a 4-1 series win. Had the Laker COACH not put the ball in Johnny Egan's hands (who was as bad as any player in the league...but was all LA could fill their roster with) in the waning seconds of a game in which they led , 88-87, which, of course resulted in a lost ball, and as usual, a last-second game-winner by Sam Jones (who was falling down when he shot it.) Had that ONE PLAY not occurred, the Lakers win game four, take a 3-1 series lead, and after easily dispatching Boston in game five (117-104 in a game in which Chamberlain abused Russell), they would have won their first-ever title in LA.

Just goes to show you how much impact an incompetent coach could have on a series...

[Hands of Iron]

(Barefoot)

Girls are :bowdown:

[PistolPete44]

Good job completely ignoring their playing abilities

[Colbertnation64]

In '72 lol, the year Kareem averaged 32 ppg on him while Wilt averaged 10 ppg in the WCF.

lol, good way to cherry pick the stats...

During their last 10 encounters which occurred from the 72 season through the 73 season Wilt was 36 years old and lost most of his athleticism due to a major knee surgery while Kareem was in his athletic prime and entering his basketball prime. Yet he still held Kareem to 43% shooting. In '72 Kareem was 24 years old and was making 35 ppg on 57%. In '73, he was 25 years old and had 30 ppg on 55%. Not to mention Wilt outrebounded him.


BUT HE STILL SCORED 32 ON HIM DOE


lmao dude, you're getting exposed right now. SIT DOWN SON.

[Deuce Bigalow]

lol, good way to cherry pick the stats...

During their last 10 encounters which occurred from the 72 season through the 73 season Wilt was 36 years old and lost most of his athleticism due to a major knee surgery while Kareem was in his athletic prime and entering his basketball prime. Yet he still held Kareem to 43% shooting. In '72 Kareem was 24 years old and was making 35 ppg on 57%. In '73, he was 25 years old and had 30 ppg on 55%. Not to mention Wilt outrebounded him.


BUT HE STILL SCORED 32 ON HIM DOE


lmao dude, you're getting exposed right now. SIT DOWN SON.
You're going to tell me 22 less PPG with 1 more RPG is better?

Kareem already had as much rings as Wilt had in his entire career at that point. Wilt's teammates Jerry West and Gail Goodrich did all of the offensive work, WIlt was the 4th leading scorer after all. Kareem in '71 title run not only led his team in RPG, but also PPG, something Wilt never done.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I was googling Wilt Chamberlain and stumbled upon suggestions

http://i.imm.io/AZD6.png

[Colbertnation64]

You're going to tell me 22 less PPG with 1 more RPG is better?

Kareem already had as much rings as Wilt had in his entire career at that point. Wilt's teammates Jerry West and Gail Goodrich did all of the offensive work, WIlt was the 4th leading scorer after all. Kareem in '71 title run not only led his team in RPG, but also PPG, something Wilt never done.
I don't know if I'd called it better, but I wouldn't call it worse.

The point is Wilt didn't have to score with West and Goodrich on his team considering he was THIRTY FIVE YEARS OLD and after major knee surgery.

The point is he defended Kareem as well as anyone in history has.

While you're comparing ppg from a prime 24 year old 1st option Kareem and a 35 year old 3rd option Wilt. Look up what roles are sometime.

[CavaliersFTW]

I was googling Wilt Chamberlain and stumbled upon suggestions

http://i.imm.io/AZD6.png
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C22kmzdTKVw/UC73ExOsjAI/AAAAAAAADjg/gLL8glwVrHM/s800/WiltGreatestGoogle.jpg

[jongib369]

I was googling Wilt Chamberlain and stumbled upon suggestions

http://i.imm.io/AZD6.png
http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/600686.jpg


lmao :cheers:

[Deuce Bigalow]

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C22kmzdTKVw/UC73ExOsjAI/AAAAAAAADjg/gLL8glwVrHM/s800/WiltGreatestGoogle.jpg
http://i.imm.io/AZIP.png

lol Wilt kids and Kobe kids

[CavaliersFTW]

http://i.imm.io/AZIP.png

lol Wilt kids and Kobe kids
I didn't try to type "greatest"... I started to type the word "greedy" but before I could put the 4th letter in Google kept suggesting he was the greatest ever, in both basketball and athletic terms... huh. Strange

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/600686.jpg


lmao :cheers:
Mike Meyers the referee? :lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

I didn't try to type "greatest"... I started to type the word "greedy" but before I could put the 4th letter in Google kept suggesting he was the greatest ever, in both basketball and athletic terms... huh. Strange
still gives the same results basically
strange, Kobe GOAT...:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

btw CavsFTW, you going to do that video?

[RRR3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCxAmIIYXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd8mGzGK1Uc




Dunce Thinkin' Slow=:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Deuce Bigalow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLCxAmIIYXc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qd8mGzGK1Uc




Dunce Thinkin' Slow=:mad: :mad: :mad:
http://lakers.topbuzz.com/gallery/d/291443-1/Kobe+Bryant+gives+two+thumbs+up+wearing+t-shirt+with+x-ray+hand+with+five+rings.JPG

[Gotterdammerung]

Because when you open up the record books, his name is everywhere.

60 point games:
Wilt - 32 games
(the rest of the NBA) - less than 30 (Jordan with 5, Kobe with 5, Baylor with 4)
:eek:
50 point games:
Wilt - 45 in one season. #2 with 30 in the next season.
(the rest of the NBA) Jordan has 39 in his career. Kobe has 25 in his career.
:eek:
40 point games:
Wilt - 271 games.
Jordan - 179
Kobe - 125.
:facepalm
Etc.

And none of them are as impressive as his rebounding records. :facepalm

ETA: Kobe actually cracked 100 games of 40+ points.

[Da_Realist]

I was googling Wilt Chamberlain and stumbled upon suggestions

http://i.imm.io/AZD6.png


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C22kmzdTKVw/UC73ExOsjAI/AAAAAAAADjg/gLL8glwVrHM/s800/WiltGreatestGoogle.jpg


:roll:

[jongib369]

60 point games:
Wilt - 32 games
(the rest of the NBA) - less than 30 (Jordan with 5, Kobe with 5, Baylor with 4)
:eek:
50 point games:
Wilt - 45 in one season. #2 with 30 in the next season.
(the rest of the NBA) Jordan has 39 in his career. Kobe has 25 in his career.
:eek:
40 point games:
Wilt - 271 games.
Jordan - 179
Kobe - not even 100.
:facepalm
Etc.

And none of them are as impressive as his rebounding records. :facepalm


:roll: I'm surprised


73 points and 36 rebounds against HOF Walt Bellamy...talk about an ass whooping :bowdown:


http://sharing.wpri.com/sharewwlp//photo/2010/08/08/WALT_BELLAMY_20100808172138_640_480.JPG

http://oi49.tinypic.com/52dnyc.jpg