Put 2003 T-Mac in today's league, is he the best player in the NBA?

[Umad101]

I think he would give lebron a run for his money. But I think he would be prabably a close second with Kd nibbling at his heal


Thoughts?

[RRR3]

My biased opinion: Best easily :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Reality: 2nd to LeBron :ohwell:

[HylianNightmare]

lebron
durant
tmac

[Legends66NBA7]

Really depends what team he's playing for, but he would be a beast, regardless. I don't think he would be the best, though.

You take any peak year by a perimeter player and put him in today's perimeter friendly NBA and he will excel even more, but depending what team he's on (whether depth is good or not) will judge his overall production.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Not even close to Lebron. All he did better was shoot mid-range jumpers and lose in the 1st round

[RRR3]

lebron
durant
tmac
:coleman:

2003 T-Mac would take Durant to schoo'

[NOHCP3]

My biased opinion: Best easily :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Reality: 2nd to LeBron :ohwell:

Come clean with me RRR 3, are you a McGrady?

[SilkkTheShocker]

lebron
durant
tmac


I would take Dwight over Tmac also. Maybe even Westbrook also.

[RRR3]

Come clean with me RRR 3, are you a McGrady?
I assume you meant to ask am I a T-Mac fan? Yep, number 1 T-Mac fan on ISH :rockon:

Am I T-Mac himself? No :D

[NOHCP3]

I assume you meant to ask am I a T-Mac fan? Yep, number 1 T-Mac fan on ISH :rockon:

Am I T-Mac himself? No :D

:lol the first part is clear. I'm thinking you've got to be a relative, cousin, brother or something.

[HylianNightmare]

Come clean with me RRR 3, are you a McGrady?
that was jsut me rating the Sf's didn't read the op saying he'd be best in the league, i think tmac coulld school durant but i also think durant would give him some buisness back.

[Faptastrophe]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.

[Umad101]

Sorry fellas Kd is a great player but at this stage of his career t-Mac was just more gifted natural talent. Who knows Kd prime could be better yrs from now. But I would take prime t-Mac now

[SilkkTheShocker]

Replace Durant with 03 Tmac and the Thunder don't make the finals. That is a fact.

[Umad101]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.
Lol...................um no:facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.


Tmac has never been the best player in the NBA.

[Legends66NBA7]

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then.

No, on both accounts.

[onhcetum]

LOL why is every1 having a hardon for t-macs 2003 season... EVERY DAY i see that season coming up... was he even better than Tim duncan? did he even get out of the first round? get outta here

[eliteballer]

Well, he was definitely better than Durant.

[inclinerator]

3rd after lebron and durant

[SilkkTheShocker]

Shaq, Kobe, TD and KG were all better than Tmac in 03. Im far from a Kobe fan, but even I feel offended when I see people putting him on the same level as Kobe. 03 was arguably Kobe's best season as a defender and atheltic prime.

[b1imtf]

No!

[HardwoodLegend]

Replace Durant with 03 Tmac and the Thunder don't make the finals. That is a fact.

T-Mac's playmaking skills are astronomically better, and he would score at a higher clip with that diesel squad around him to free up space and create more opportunities for him.

I have no idea how you would take Westbrook over '03 T-Mac. That has petty bitchmade vendetta written all over it.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Well, he was definitely better than Durant.


More versatile, sure. He wasn't a better player.

[Ne 1]

T-Mac was the best scorer that year and as good of a passer/play maker at the swingman position as anyone you'll find in that era but with that said he wouldn't be the best player in today's league. But Tracy was an incredible athlete though and his length was rare at the shooting guard position. He was also a prolific shooter with great range, even off the dribble and he also had a mid-range game.




T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. .

No. T-Mac put up comparable numbers, and exceeded Kobe in a few statistical categories (mainly scoring) but it was obvious that Bryant was the better overall player. His impact on the defensive end was remarkable compared to T-Mac.


he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then

:oldlol:

Shaq and Duncan were also better in 2003 IMO. He sure as hell wasn't undeniably the best player in the NBA that year. You could eaisly make a case for Duncan, Shaq, KG and Kobe over him.

[SilkkTheShocker]

T-Mac's playmaking skills are astronomically better, and he would score at a higher clip with that diesel squad around him to free up space and create more opportunities for him.

I have no idea how you would take Westbrook over '03 T-Mac. That has petty bitchmade vendetta written all over it.

Replace Durant with Tmac and the Thunder don't even get the 2nd seed. Let alone go to the Finals. Tmac was a loser, dude. He had no leadership skills at all. Even if his team was up, odds are they would blow the series lead. Like his teams did against Detroit, Dallas, and Utah.

[eliteballer]

More versatile, sure. He wasn't a better player.

Well, I'm convinced:rolleyes:

[SilkkTheShocker]

Well, I'm convinced:rolleyes:


Glad I could help, bro :pimp:

[Rake2204]

I sort of get this feeling some folks are really shrinking down the size of play-style and athletic ability eras. 2003 wasn't that long ago and the rules aren't actually that terribly different. I think pace may have arguably played a bigger role in the changing landscape of the NBA during the past decade more than rule changes, but that may be beside the point.

I just disagree with the general notion that players who were in their prime in 2003 would somehow experience vastly different (and perhaps superior) results nowadays as if 2003 was actually 1956 (if that was the initial suggestion, it could have been a mere wondering of where he'd rank, period, as opposed to how much better he'd be).

I think I'm just a little touchy after hearing more than a few suggestions that the likes of Clyde Drexler and Chris Mullin wouldn't be able to hang in today's game because, as some have said, they're either 1) too slow or 2) unathletic.

[HardwoodLegend]

Replace Durant with Tmac and the Thunder don't even get the 2nd seed. Let alone go to the Finals. Tmac was a loser, dude. He had no leadership skills at all. Even if his team was up, odds are they would blow the series lead. Like his teams did against Detroit, Dallas, and Utah.

It was easy for all those teams to make adjustments in a series and clamp down on the one guy who could create plays for himself and others.

He wouldn't have that problem on a well-rounded team like OKC.

It's not even fair to bring up the Orlando collapse since the Magic barely eeked out a couple of those wins... same goes for one of those two Houston wins against Dallas. It was obvious which team was superior in that series.

[riseagainst]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.

T-mac and Kobe might have been really close in terms of offense in 2002-2003, but Kobe's defense was way better.

[ImmortalD24]

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then.
:roll:

The mythical prime T-mac keeps getting inflated every year. I'm not even going to give you a serious response.

[Legends66NBA7]

I just disagree with the general notion that players who were in their prime in 2003 would somehow experience vastly different (and perhaps superior) results nowadays as if 2003 was actually 1956 (if that was the initial suggestion, it could have been a mere wondering of where he'd rank, period, as opposed to how much better he'd be).

Perimeter players would have much more freedom in today's NBA, because of he rules changes that benefits them, so yes, I do see a difference. It wouldn't be that "vast", but most peak players would be better.

A player like 2003 T-Mac, would be a be one of those players that would be amazing in today's NBA.


I think I'm just a little touchy after hearing more than a few suggestions that the likes of Clyde Drexler and Chris Mullin wouldn't be able to hang in today's game because, as some have said, they're either 1) too slow or 2) unathletic.

Rake, whoever is saying either of the 2 statements about Drexler and Mullin are crazy. They would both be great players today.

[Rake2204]

Perimeter players would have much more freedom in today's NBA, because of he rules changes that benefits them, so yes, I do see a difference. It wouldn't be that "vast", but most peak players would be better.

A player like 2003 T-Mac, would be a be one of those players that would be amazing in today's NBA.



Rake, whoever is saying either of the 2 statements about Drexler and Mullin are crazy. They would both be great players today.
Haha, I'm glad we see eye-to-eye on the last statement.

In regards to the first, I don't ask this as a challenge, but rather out of curiosity, do you have a source for the rule changes that have helped free up perimeter players since 2003? I hear rumors of a little bit happening here or there, but I've been unable to get a feel for exactly what was implemented when.

[Optimus Prime]

Look up overrated in the new dictionary and you will see a picture of Tmac. :facepalm

See also: Carter, Vince

:kobe:

[IGOTGAME]

I think T-Mac in 2003 was better than Durant. But I also think Durant is overrated right now. I still see him as a 6"10 Ray Allen. He doesn't create offense for others and doesn't really shift defenses that way T-Mac did. There is a reason he NEEDS Westbrook to play out of control. Also, T-Mac was a much better defender when it mattered. Durant in finals played pathetic defense.

[Dragonyeuw]

T-mac and Kobe might have been really close in terms of offense in 2002-2003, but Kobe's defense was way better.

I thought in 2003 Tmac was the more natural scorer, at least he seemed to score more easily. Kobe's on-fire mode is just ridiculous though.....

[SilkkTheShocker]

Durant got destroyed by Lebron and I still think he would have done better than Tmac would have. Lebron would have averaged 09 ECF numbers against Tmac. It would have gotten ugly.

[Legends66NBA7]

In regards to the first, I don't ask this as a challenge, but rather out of curiosity, do you have a source for the rule changes that have helped free up perimeter players since 2003? I hear rumors of a little bit happening here or there, but I've been unable to get a feel for exactly what was implemented when.

Not exactly 2003, but previous years they changed some of the rules. The major rule changes on the perimeter came after 2003:

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html


2004-05

• New rules were introduced to curtail hand-checking, clarify blocking fouls and call defensive three seconds to open up the game.

2006-07

• On a clear-path-to-the-basket foul, the team that is fouled is awarded two free throw attempt and the ball on the sideline.

http://*********.com/articles/defense_lazenby.htm

^Need to give that a read.

Now, that's around 2006. If 03 T-Mac was inserted in 05-06, he would have had some monster numbers. Around 2012, defenses have adjusted, but he would still rack it up.

[riseagainst]

Durant got destroyed by Lebron and I still think he would have done better than Tmac would have. Lebron would have averaged 09 ECF numbers against Tmac. It would have gotten ugly.

dude no one got destroyed by anyone. lol. It looked to me Durant did fine.

[SilkkTheShocker]

dude no one got destroyed by anyone. lol. It looked to me Durant did fine.


Honestly, you just believe that because you're a biased Kobe stan.

[riseagainst]

Honestly, you just believe that because you're a biased Kobe stan.

a biased Kobe stan defending Durant? :facepalm
I always state things the way it is. You made an outrageous claim....


regular season: 28-8-4 .......................... 49.6/38.7/86
finals: 31-6-2 ............................... 54.8/39.4/83.9

destroyed? wtf

[IGOTGAME]

Durant got destroyed by Lebron and I still think he would have done better than Tmac would have. Lebron would have averaged 09 ECF numbers against Tmac. It would have gotten ugly.

you must be very young. when T-Mac locked in he was an elite defender. T-Mac is one of the few defenders in history that has a chance of really causes Lebron problems. Guys is the same height, quicker and longer with good instincts.

[SilkkTheShocker]

you must be very young. when T-Mac locked in he was an elite defender. T-Mac is one of the few defenders in history that has a chance of really causes Lebron problems. Guys is the same height, quicker and longer with good instincts.

No, I saw Tmac that whole season. As mentioned above, his 03 season is starting to become a legend. OKC gets swept if he is playing instead of Durant.

[KingLeBronJames]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.
2003 Kobe > 2003 T-Mac. Kobe was incredible that year.

[White Mamba]

the best player on the league in 2003? not T-mac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugkFcXpRan4&feature=related

[IGOTGAME]

No, I saw Tmac that whole season. As mentioned above, his 03 season is starting to become a legend. OKC gets swept if he is playing instead of Durant.

Durant is the most overrated guy I have seen since 2005-2006 Steve Nash.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Durant is the most overrated guy I have seen since 2005-2006 Steve Nash.


He isn't as versatile as Tmac, but Durant can shoot right over Lebron/Battier/etc. From an offensive standpoint, I don't see Tmac having more success as an offensive player in that position than KD. As a passer and maybe rebounder? Yea, Durant needs work in that area. As for Nash, couldn't agree more. The fact he has two MVPs and guys like Shaq only have 1 is really a shame. It should go to the best player imo.

[HardwoodLegend]

the best player on the league in 2003? not T-mac

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugkFcXpRan4&feature=related

The season in question is 2002-03. Not 2003-04.

Kobe had a huge advantage in that game, btw. He had a lot more energy in the tank for the end, because he coasted and let Shaq dominate through the most of the game. T-Mac had to fight tooth and nail from the beginning just to give his team a chance.

So, of course Kobe was reared and ready to go in the 4th while T-Mac's stamina was on the decline.

Such a terrible game that gets highlighted for "Kobe's dominance".

[White Mamba]

He isn't as versatile as Tmac, but Durant can shoot right over Lebron/Battier/etc. From an offensive standpoint, I don't see Tmac having more success as an offensive player in that position than KD. As a passer and maybe rebounder? Yea, Durant needs work in that area. As for Nash, couldn't agree more. The fact he has two MVPs and guys like Shaq only have 1 is really a shame. It should go to the best player imo.

Its amazyng how ppl even compare them, what t-mac did in 2003? thats right - nothing. just like any other year of his career - if some1 is overrated here it sure not KD.

[White Mamba]

The season in question is 2002-03. Not 2003-04.

Kobe had a huge advantage in that game, btw. He had a lot more energy in the tank for the end, because he coasted and let Shaq dominate through the most of the game. T-Mac had to fight tooth and nail from the beginning just to give his team a chance.

So, of course Kobe was reared and ready to go in the 4th while T-Mac's stamina was on the decline.

Such a terrible game that gets highlighted for "Kobe's dominance".

not true, kobe got injured in his shoulder he had no advantage over t-mac

and choose any season u want, kobe dominate um all over the years.

TMAC, AI, CARTER, SMARTER, JUST PICK.

[IGOTGAME]

Its amazyng how ppl even compare them, what t-mac did in 2003? thats right - nothing. just like any other year of his career - if some1 is overrated here it sure not KD.
it was unfortunate that T-Mac got hurt and wasn't really the same. But in that year, 2003, he was a monster. Too bad he wasn't playing with Shaq or Duncan or Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Its amazyng how ppl even compare them, what t-mac did in 2003? thats right - nothing. just like any other year of his career - if some1 is overrated here it sure not KD.

Agreed. I wouldn't take him over Kobe, Shaq, TD, or KG that season. I mean, 03 is arguably Kobe's atheltic/defensive prime. Are people really going to tell me Tmac was the better player? Or better than TD who won a title with one of the most limited teams in awhile? A team that was playing Speedy Claxton big minutes in the 4th quarter of an NBA Finals game? Not buying it. The legend of Tmac's 03 season continues to get worse and worse.

[HardwoodLegend]

not true, kobe got injured in his shoulder he had no advantage over t-mac

and choose any season u want, kobe dominate um all over the years.

TMAC, AI, CARTER, SMARTER, JUST PICK.

The shoulder injury was a fraud.

And, tell me this... why wasn't Kobe on him from the beginning? Why didn't he just D him up from the start so the Magic wouldn't have a chance at all?

That's right. Because Kobe had to play rope-a-dope and wait 'til T-Mac was fatigued late. Kobe was conserving himself and letting Shaq do all the work at the start.

[SilkkTheShocker]

it was unfortunate that T-Mac got hurt and wasn't really the same. But in that year, 2003, he was a monster. Too bad he wasn't playing with Shaq or Duncan or Westbrook, Harden and Ibaka.


You can't just plug Tmac into those teams expect success. The guy was a poor leader, had bad work ethic, and was just all-around lockerroom malcontent. I don't believe he had a winning mentality. Not say he didn't care about winning, but he just wasn't someone that could get you over that hump.

[IGOTGAME]

You can't just plug Tmac into those teams expect success. The guy was a poor leader, had bad work ethic, and was just all-around lockerroom malcontent. I don't believe he had a winning mentality. Not say he didn't care about winning, but he just wasn't someone that could get you over that hump.
im assuming you just made up the bolded. Work ethic? so where did all those skills come from...oh, wait this is ISH where Jeremy Lin has GOAT work ethic but can't dribble with his left hand.

All I'm saying is that if T-Mac had been put with TD, Shaq etc. he would have done something in the postseason and likely have a ring or two. He was a dominant player who got hurt and wasn't quite the same in Houston. But, that guy in Orlando was one of the few players ever that could give Lebron problems. He was also better than Kevin Durant. But, I'm of the opinion that CP3 and Dwight Howard are better than KD as well.

[White Mamba]

The shoulder injury was a fraud.

And, tell me this... why wasn't Kobe on him from the beginning? Why didn't he just D him up from the start so the Magic wouldn't have a chance at all?

That's right. Because Kobe had to play rope-a-dope and wait 'til T-Mac was fatigued late. Kobe was conserving himself and letting Shaq do all the work at the start.

Its a coach desicion not a player.

and I don't know how u can say this about his shoulder:roll: but whatever makes u feel better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200403150LAL.html

[KOBE143]

Nope, his 2nd to Kobe

Kobe
Tmac
Durant

[Boston C's]

Nope, his 2nd to Kobe

Kobe
Tmac
Durant

kobe is arguably not even top 5 today let alone the best :lol

[Rake2204]

Not exactly 2003, but previous years they changed some of the rules. The major rule changes on the perimeter came after 2003:

http://www.nba.com/analysis/rules_history.html



http://*********.com/articles/defense_lazenby.htm

^Need to give that a read.

Now, that's around 2006. If 03 T-Mac was inserted in 05-06, he would have had some monster numbers. Around 2012, defenses have adjusted, but he would still rack it up.
I appreciate those links, though, one is all starred out and I can't tell what it is.

The rule changes were a good read though. It appeared as if 2005 was more or less a refresher or a means to make clear rules that were more or less already in place (likely in response to Detroit's grinding '04 defense after the acquisition of Rasheed Wallace).

I actually felt the biggest rule changes occurred around the turn of the century, and this was at least somewhat confirmed in that first link. For the 2000-2001 season:


• No contact with either hands or forearms by defenders except in the frontcourt below the free throw line extended in which case the defender may use his forearm only.
• Neither the offensive player nor the defender will be allowed to dislodge or displace a player who has legally obtained a position.
• Defender may not use his forearm, shoulder, hip or hand to reroute or hold-up an offensive player going from point A to Point B or one who is attempting to come around a legal screen set by another offensive player.
• Slowing or impeding the progress of the screener by grabbing, clutching, holding “chucking” or “wrapping up” is prohibited.

As with many rules, I don't doubt they needed some reaffirmation after their initial implementation, but I don't think there's been a gross difference in those interpretations from 2003 to 2012. I think Tracy McGrady would be successful in 2012, but I don't think it was a matter of him having to fight through brutish defense in '03 or anything. Folks were complaining about the open lanes created by the rule changes back then just as well as they are now (not to mention the defensive 3-seconds rule was also relatively fresh back then, thus arguably creating more spaces than the illegal defense rule it replaced).

People tend to look back at the '04-ish era and think of the Pistons and their defense, assuming that was just the way the game was played back then. Not so. The Pistons were generally an anomaly. Many folks did not enjoy watching them play because they believed in a slow controlled tempo, a measured offense, and disciplined defense. It wasn't the wild west for every other NBA squad, but it certainly wasn't the grind we saw years earlier (pre-2000).

[PullupJay]

Nope, his 2nd to Kobe

Kobe
Tmac
Durant
:oldlol: you think 2012 kobe is better than 2003 t-mac? Give me a break.

And i honestly feel he would be the best player in the game today if not for his injuries. 2003 t mac had moves that even Michael Jordan(not sayin he's better god forbid :D ) couldn't or didn't do. He had it all.. Unstoppable offensive player

2003 t mac>Durant too. both almost even as scorers but t mac had better passing skills,defense, and lay ups

Only reason he lost in the first round was because the 2nd best player on his team was Drew Gooden. If Grant Hill(another awesome player that injuries got the best of him) didn't get injured they would make the playoffs and even Finals maybe.

Compare the 2003 Orlando Magic roster to the 2011 OKC Thunder roster or Miami heat or Lakers roster...come on its ridiculous. These teams are stacked!

Put any of the big wing-man stars (Kobe,Lebron,Wade,Durant) on the 2003 Orlando Magic instead of t mac and they would probably also not get out of the first round. IMO..

[Legends66NBA7]

I appreciate those links, though, one is all starred out and I can't tell what it is.

I know why.

:oldlol:

The Admin on ISH hates the opposing admin of that website, so he bans the name.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1ADFA_enCA418&biw=1366&bih=531&q=The+Death+of+Defense&oq=The+Death+of+Defense&gs_l=serp.3..0i30l2j0i8i30.8806.12964.0.14025.20.1 5.0.0.0.0.390.2090.0j1j5j2.8.0.eqrwrth..0.0...1.rE eI81aE72k

Click the first link given. It's titled "The Death of Defense ?".

[Rake2204]

Only reason he lost in the first round was because the 2nd best player on his team was Drew Gooden. If Grant Hill(another awesome player that injuries got the best of him) didn't get injured they would make the playoffs and even Finals maybe.

Compare the 2003 Orlando Magic roster to the 2011 OKC Thunder roster or Miami heat or Lakers roster...come on its ridiculous. These teams are stacked!

Put any of the big wing-man stars (Kobe,Lebron,Wade,Durant) on the 2003 Orlando Magic instead of t mac and they would probably also not get out of the first round. IMO..

I wasn't a super fan of McGrady's game, but I was also not a fan of his supporting cast. It's quite apparent how lame both McGrady and Allen Iverson's casts were if you ever get around to using their classic teams on NBA2K12 (user made classic teams, that is). My little brother loves using players like McGrady and Iverson, but it's always the same story. I concentrate on shutting down the superstar, then he's left with rookie Mike Miller? Jumaine Jones? Aaron McKie? Pat Garrity? George Lynch? Andrew DeClercq? As such, I could never really doll out all the blame for any team failures squarely on the shoulders of Iverson or McGrady.

[Mr Exlax]

I wasn't a super fan of McGrady's game, but I was also not a fan of his supporting cast. It's quite apparent how lame both McGrady and Allen Iverson's casts were if you ever get around to using their classic teams on NBA2K12 (user made classic teams, that is). My little brother loves using players like McGrady and Iverson, but it's always the same story. I concentrate on shutting down the superstar, then he's left with rookie Mike Miller? Jumaine Jones? Aaron McKie? Pat Garrity? George Lynch? Andrew DeClercq? As such, I could never really doll out all the blame for any team failures squarely on the shoulders of Iverson or McGrady.


This.

I mean, TMac didn't get out the first round, but what teams has he had or even more important, what teams did he play against? Remember that year the Lakers lost to Phoenix. Was Kobe not good enough to beat them or was his team just that shitty?

[HardwoodLegend]

Its a coach desicion not a player.

and I don't know how u can say this about his shoulder:roll: but whatever makes u feel better.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200403150LAL.html

I'm feeling fine. No need to feel better. I do feel bad that you are failing to understand the team dynamic though :facepalm

LOL @ being proud of an overtime win against that Magic squad.

T-Mac was depending on Deshawn Stevenson and Juwan Howard for offensive assistance. Kobe had Shaq to piggyback on for 3 quarters and keep gas in the tank for the late game situation against such a thin roster.

[Smoke117]

I would not take a 2003 Tmac over Lebron or Dwight Howard and would probably ponder over some other players as well.

[Legends66NBA7]

T-Mac was depending on Deshawn Stevenson and Juwan Howard for offensive assistance.

And they did.

Howard scored more points in the 4th quarter than T-Mac. Howard and Stevenson were the only players for the Magic to score in overtime.


Kobe had Shaq to piggyback on for 3 quarters and keep gas in the tank for the late game situation against such a thin roster.

While true, scoring 24 points in the 4th quarter on anybody is still very impressive.

[Rake2204]

I know why.

:oldlol:

The Admin on ISH hates the opposing admin of that website, so he bans the name.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1ADFA_enCA418&biw=1366&bih=531&q=The+Death+of+Defense&oq=The+Death+of+Defense&gs_l=serp.3..0i30l2j0i8i30.8806.12964.0.14025.20.1 5.0.0.0.0.390.2090.0j1j5j2.8.0.eqrwrth..0.0...1.rE eI81aE72k

Click the first link given. It's titled "The Death of Defense ?".
Ah, there we are. Thanks once again. I read it, and I actually tend to agree with Rick Barry. I may have mentioned it earlier in this thread, but I think a lot of the low scores of the 90's and early 00's had an awful lot to do with tempo. Play styles tend to be cyclical, but with new wrinkles every time they re-emerge. Dallas and Sacramento began poking holes in the slow tempo theory early in the millennium, then Phoenix busted things wide open.

Anyway, more to the point, I agree '03 McGrady could have theoretically seen a spike in his scoring in '06. However, I feel things tended to even back out in the seasons thereafter, returning closer to the interpretations that were originally brought about around the beginning of the century. As such, in '12, I believe his output would be quite similar.

[bdreason]

I'd probably rank him 3rd overall.

[Sakkreth]

Not sure if 2nd or 3rd, probably second, but durant is quite good.

[HardwoodLegend]

And they did.

Howard scored more points in the 4th quarter than T-Mac. Howard and Stevenson were the only players for the Magic to score in overtime.

They got their little chip shots in off of more open looks. But, my point is you won't get consistent production like that out of them. T-Mac had to shoulder a heavy load all year long and teams could lock him down late in the games when he was spent and let others roam.




While true, scoring 24 points in the 4th quarter on anybody is still very impressive.

It is. He made some amazing plays. But, I find it silly when some people suggest that game is such a reliable measure of how they stack up head-to-head when there are some disparities being overlooked.

Kobe took something like 1 shot in the 1st half, I believe... and he looked to be moving at around 60% most of the time. I'm sure it was a strategical move, coaching-wise, but there is no way T-Mac could have afforded to play that way for the Magic to even be in it during the 4th.

[AK47DR91]

2003: Shaq, Duncan and then Kobe or McGrady

2012: LeBron, Durant, Dwight or (prime) McGrady

Prime McGrady would still be 3rd or 4th best.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Durant got destroyed by Lebron and I still think he would have done better than Tmac would have. Lebron would have averaged 09 ECF numbers against Tmac. It would have gotten ugly.
When did Lebron destroy Durant?

[arifgokcen]

Durant got destroyed by Lebron and I still think he would have done better than Tmac would have. Lebron would have averaged 09 ECF numbers against Tmac. It would have gotten ugly.

Durant didnt get destroyed.However his defense is exposed.Though offensively he was a juggernaut throughout the series.

Harden,thabo defended lebron mainly.I think thunder slowed down lebron better than any other team we have seen.They had the perfect combination fantastic perimeter defender,best shot blocker and big body to meet with him at the rim in perkins.
I wouldnt pick Tmac any season over lebron seasons since 2008-2009 season

[D.J.]

T-Mac at worst would be 2nd. '03 T-Mac is a better playmaker and defender than Durant. The only debate is whether you would rank 32/7/6 46/39/80 T-Mac over LeBron.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Dirk in 03:

25.1/9.9/3.0 on 46/38/88

It isn't like 04 caused a major change in many of the players.

[TheBigVeto]

Uh hell no dudes.
Tmac was a good all star player but he won't be the best now.

He's better than Kobe though, I'll give you that.

[BaņkShot]

Still wouldn't get out the first round.

[bfrombleacher]

If he'd stayed healthy...would his improvement have made him a far better player? He relies far less on his athleticism than his cousin does and if he'd put on more strength...

[LA_Showtime]

It's safe to say that a prime T-Mac is better than a 34-year-old Kobe, who's entering his 17th year and is coming off a summer playing in the Olympics.

[franchiez]

I would pay to see that.

[tmacattack33]

Prime T-mac was better than Durant is right now...or at the least it is debatable (with T-mac winning) and so Durant wouldn't be the pretty much unquestionable second best in the league like he is now.

[WockaVodka]

4th behind Durant, Lebron, and Howard. He might even be behind cp3.

[WockaVodka]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.
:facepalm Kobe was better than T-Mac in 2003 and there is no way in hell T-Mac was better than Duncan that season either.

Some of you guys are just looking at basketball reference, aren't you?

[BlackVVaves]

People forget so fast.

T-Mac was WAYYYYYYYYYY better than Kobe back in 2002-2003 (mentioning Kobe because of their rivalry at the time), he was undoubtfully the best player in the NBA back then. On that note.. he would be the second best player in the league.

No one even mentioned Kobe in this thread, at all. Everyone was discussing whether T-Mac would ranked higher than Lebron and KD right now, but que another crazed, insecure Lebron fanboy.

Do you know how sad it is, that you can't have an objective discussion without mentioning another man's name? Wow, get a grip :facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

Shaq, Kobe, TD and KG were all better than Tmac in 03. Im far from a Kobe fan, but even I feel offended when I see people putting him on the same level as Kobe. 03 was arguably Kobe's best season as a defender and atheltic prime.

This is definitely the first, and god I hope the last time I say this. But.....

I agree with you :eek:

At least in terms of Duncan, Kobe, and KG. Shaq was unhealthy overweight, and unmotivated in 2003, so I can't say he was the better player in 2003 per say, though in a vacuum, Shaq > Tmac each and every time.

Of course, Fapwhateverhisnameis rather drive home his "Lebron > life itself" agenda than even consider reasonable thought processes. Duncan dominated the league mercilessly that year, and Kobe?


For a few minutes, let's flash back to the 2002-2003 NBA season. The Lakers were attempting to win four straight titles, LeBron James wouldn't be in the league for another season, Yao Ming was a rookie and Tim Duncan was on his way to winning back-to-back MVP awards.

Now, narrow your focus a little more to February of the 2002-2003 season. Something extraordinary was taking place in Los Angeles, during a nine-game stretch in February of 2003. Kobe Bryant had a nine-game streak of 40-point basketball games.

Kobe was not the first to accomplish this jaw-dropping feat. Wilt Chamberlain did it three times in his career. In the 1961-62 season, Chamberlain had two separate streaks of 14 games of at least 40 points and during the '62-'63 season, Chamberlain had a streak of 10 straight. Michael Jordan had nine straight games of at least 40 points, during the '86-'87 season. Listed below, are the nine games from Bryant's 40-point streak in 2003.

2/6/03 versus New York Knicks: 46 Points (Lakers Win)

2/11/03 versus Denver Nuggets: 42 points (Lakers Win)

2/12/03 versus Denver Nuggets: 51 points (Lakers Win)

2/14/03 versus San Antonio Spurs: 44 points (Lakers Lose)

2/16/03 versus New York Knicks: 40 points (Lakers Lose)

2/18/03 versus Houston Rockets: 52 points (Lakers Win)

2/19/03 versus Utah Jazz: 40 Points (Lakers Win)

2/21/03 versus Portland Trail Blazers: 40 Points (Lakers Win)

2/23/03 versus Seattle Supersonics: 41 points (Lakers Win)



A player has to truly be in a zone to put up these kinds of numbers for nine straight games. Also, Bryant didn't do this in 2005 or 2006 when he was playing with guys named Kwame Brown and Smush Parker. This took place in 2003, when the Lakers were the defending NBA champions and Kobe had to share the rock with another superstar in Shaq (Shaq played in six of the nine games).

The Lakers got off to a terrible start that season. After a Christmas Day loss to the Sacramento Kings, the Lakers had a record of 11-19. Before the nine-game streak started, the Lakers had a 23-23 record. The Lakers went 7-2 during the nine-game streak, giving some much needed elbow room in the standings.

This 7-2 stretch jump-started the Lakers, as they finished with 50 wins. So, Bryant was not only doing this on a championship-caliber team, but he played his best when the Lakers really needed it.

With his five championships, Finals MVP trophies, scoring titles and an 81-point game under his belt, it is easy to forget about that nine-game stretch in February of 2003. But make no mistake, it is just as impressive as any of Bryant's other individual achievements.

If fans are expecting this to happen again anytime soon, don't count on it. When something has been done by guys with the names Jordan, Chamberlain and Bryant on their jerseys, it is safe to say it is fairly rare.



Please don't bring that T-Mac was the best player in the league in 2003 fairytale in here, as if none of us watched or remember that season. T-Mac wasn't even the best guard in the NBA that year. Yes, it was his best season, and he was truly remarkable. But cut the bullshit. Duncan and Kobe were the best players in the NBA that year, followed by KG by a nose hair, but if you want to make the case for T-Mac > KG in 2003, it's not as blasphemous as saying T-Mac was better than Duncan or Kobe.

Top 5? No doubt about it. Top 2 at his position? Can't even question it.

Best player in the league? Get the **** outta here.

[Jacks3]

03 T-Mac was incredible.

32/7/6/2 on phenomenal efficiency...56% TS/+4.5 relative to league average.

30 PER. :eek:

One of the lowest turnover rates in the league.

Don't see how it's crazy to suggest he was the best....at least during the regular season.

[HardwoodLegend]

That fairytale, myth of a 2002-03 season.

It's as magical as the name of the team he played for.

Why oh why couldn't he sustain such brilliance? I think he got a huge mental block he never could remove for the rest of his career after that 3-1 collapse against Detroit and then the subsequent 19-game losing streak at the beginning of 2003-04.

F'ed up his whole psyche.

[franchiez]

03 T-Mac was incredible.

32/7/6/2 on phenomenal efficiency...56% TS/+4.5 relative to league average.

30 PER. :eek:

One of the lowest turnover rates in the league.

Don't see how it's crazy to suggest he was the best....at least during the regular season.

He had such a horrible team too.

[StateOfMind12]

Not even close, 2006 Lebron was probably better than McGrady ever was to be honest, let alone 2012 Lebron or peak Lebron.

McGrady might be top 5 but no more than that.

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. CP3
4. Howard
5. McGrady

[LBJMVP]

in the 2012-2013 season
lebron is easily the second best.

prime tracy mcgrady is easily the 2nd best.


i was only 8-10 when mcgrady hit his prime. (2001-2003) i was one of his biggest fans back in his orlando days. cleveland was still my team though! i f*cked with wesley person, but those cavs teams sucked and was big on t-mac.


i use to play nba live and be orlando and merk people with t-mac and darrell armstrong.