if Kobe is a shot jacking chucker 19.6 fga career

[The Iron Fist]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?

[28renyoy]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?

A better scorer than Kobe.

[The Iron Fist]

A better scorer than Kobe.
In what w

[kennethgriffin]

they think that 45 fg% is bad for a shooting guard or a high volume scorer

but when you look at all the 6-5 and under players in history that averaged over 25ppg at any time in their life... most shot around 45%

its good for an outside perimeter player

ray allen and rick barry are 2 of the greatest shooters ever. they shot 45% too

[Deuce Bigalow]

A better scorer than Kobe.
Has Durant already surpassed Kobe all-time?

[Zedja]

LeBron is more efficient though.

[The Iron Fist]

they think that 45 fg% is bad for a shooting guard or a high volume scorer

but when you look at all the 6-5 and under players in history that averaged over 25ppg at any time in their life... most shot around 45%

its good for an outside perimeter player

ray allen and rick barry are 2 of the greatest shooters ever. they shot 45% too
Allen and Barry at 45%?

How did they make the nba?

[lilblingy]

Well most Kobe haters are idiots so you wont get a proper answer from them.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Lebron would have even more shot attempts if he had the courage to take the last second shots.

[The Iron Fist]

LeBron is more efficient though.
He should be, hes in the front court.

[red1]

the difference is that lebron would pass to the open man when kobe would shoot over a triple team

[andgar923]

Kobe fans still refuse to 'get it'.

It's not the fg% itself, it's the type of shots and decisions that he makes.

[The Iron Fist]

the difference is that lebron would pass to the open man when kobe would shoot over a triple team
So how has kobe led the team in assists for the past 15 years?

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe fans still refuse to 'get it'.

It's not the fg% itself, it's the type of shots and decisions that he makes.
This isnt about fg%.

But attempts dipshit.

[NumberSix]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?
It's not chucking when you make 50% of your shots. It is when you make 40%.

Really not that hard to understand.

[KyrieTheFuture]

You made this thread already. If you look from 2003-now Kobe averages more attempts per game. Don't think I forgot it was only a few days ago.

[Smoke117]

they think that 45 fg% is bad for a shooting guard or a high volume scorer

but when you look at all the 6-5 and under players in history that averaged over 25ppg at any time in their life... most shot around 45%

its good for an outside perimeter player

ray allen and rick barry are 2 of the greatest shooters ever. they shot 45% too


You just try to simplify everything to fit your agenda. Just taking fg% is such a bullshit way to analyze someone's efficiency. Ray Allen has taken so many more 3pt attempts than Kobe so the fact that he has shot 45% would be a lot more impressive no? Ray Allen: eFG% .529, TS% .579. Kobe Bryant: eFG% .486, TS% .554. Now shut up and stop trying to make agenda filled posts because they are easily refuted.

[The Iron Fist]

It's not chucking when you make 50% of your shots. It is when you make 40%.

Really not that hard to understand.
Kobes a 45% shooter, who gets most of his points from jumpers. Bron gets his points from dunks, and hes only at 50%?

Lol

[NumberSix]

So how has kobe led the team in assists for the past 15 years?
Because he has the ball. His team mates can't pass a ball that isn't in their hands.

[The Iron Fist]

You made this thread already. If you look from 2003-now Kobe averages more attempts per game. Don't think I forgot it was only a few days ago.
Kobes career didnt start in 03 though.

19.6 fga career
Bron 20.4 fga career

But kobes the chucker?

[SilkkTheShocker]

Lebron played with scrubs his 1st seven seasons where he had to score. Kobe has rarely been on a team that didn't have a dominant frountcourt.

[The Iron Fist]

Because he has the ball. His team mates can't pass a ball that isn't in their hands.
If they dont have the ball in their hands, how does Kobe get the assist and lead his team year after year?

[alwaysunny]

Kobes a 45% shooter, who gets most of his points from jumpers. Bron gets his points from dunks, and hes only at 50%?

Lol

Kobe shot 43% last season. LeBron shot 53%. I don't care what position you play 10% difference is freakin huge

[The Iron Fist]

Kobe shot 43% last season. LeBron shot 53%. I don't care what position you play 10% difference is freakin huge
This is career though.

How is kobe the shotjacking chucker when lebron shoots more per game?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Lebron played with scrubs his 1st seven seasons where he had to score. Kobe has rarely been on a team that didn't have a dominant frountcourt.
It's been 1 day with negs back and you're already in the red :lol

[NumberSix]

Kobes career didnt start in 03 though.

19.6 fga career
Bron 20.4 fga career

But kobes the chucker?
Chucking = taking bad shots.

Kobe takes many bad shots, hence, never shooting over 47% for a single season in his 16 season career.

LeBron doesn't take many bad shots, hence, shooting over 50% many seasons and having a career average better than Kobe's best single season average.

[Suckafree]

Itt: strong logic from all parties

[The Iron Fist]

Chucking = taking bad shots.

Kobe takes many bad shots, hence, never shooting over 47% for a single season in his 16 season career.

LeBron doesn't take many bad shots, hence, shooting over 50% many seasons and having a career average better than Kobe's best single season average.
Lebron gets points in the paint.

Kobe takes jump shots.


Shots from further out, will drop %.

[NumberSix]

Lebron gets points in the paint.

Kobe takes jump shots.


Shots from further out, will drop %.
hence, "bad shots" :hammerhead:

[28renyoy]

Durant's a better scorer than both of them, so who cares.

He also has as many scoring titles as both of them combined and he's played 5 years vs their 24

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe doesnt take jumpers because he cant get into the paint though. He takes them because he doesnt care to try. The not caring to try toget an easier shot is the base of the problem most have with his selection. Kobe has for most of his career been able to walk by his man into the lane....but he will jab step 4 times and take a fadeaway 19 footer.

Just....bothersome at times. No need to make it more than that.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Always though shit like this is overrated to be honest.

I believe Jordan averages more shots than anyone.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Durant's a better scorer than both of them, so who cares.

He also has as many scoring titles as both of them combined and he's played 5 years vs their 24
Durant and Lebron in their careers combined have 10 50 point games.
Kobe in the 2006-07 season had 10

[The Iron Fist]

hence, "bad shots" :hammerhead:
Ray allen takes all bad shots then

[Heavincent]

It's not chucking when you make 50% of your shots. It is when you make 40%.

Really not that hard to understand.

So I guess Kobe isn't a chucker considering he's a career 45% shooter, not 40%.

[28renyoy]

Durant and Lebron in their careers combined have 10 50 point games.
Kobe in the 2006-07 season had 10

If Durant were selfish enough to shoot 28 times a game like Kobe, he would probably average 40 points per game

Kevin Durant is literally open on 100% of possessions due to his height/shooting ability.

[Deuce Bigalow]

If Durant were selfish enough to shoot 28 times a game like Kobe, he would probably average 40 points per game

Kevin Durant is literally open on 100% of possessions due to his height/shooting ability.
Yep. I mean just look at the GOAT scorer MJ, averaged 40 for a season...
:rolleyes:

[jlip]

Firstly, when people use those terms to refer to Kobe it is obvious that they are not considering the first couple of seasons of his career in which he was not in a position to shoot much, to be a part of the equation. Be realistic about this.

Secondly the phrase "shot jacking chucker" is more a qualitative idiom than a quantitative one. It doesn't take into consideration JUST the number of shot attempts (quantitative), but it looks at also at the types of shots taken and the circumstances under which they are attempted (qualitative.) For over a decade Kobe has been more prone to, without conscience, take ill advised, highly contested shots when the better option may have been either to pass the ball or to work for a simpler shot. Conversely, Lebron has actually been criticized for being too passive as a scorer. And we're not talking about just 4th quarter or late game situations.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kobe doesnt take jumpers because he cant get into the paint though. He takes them because he doesnt care to try. The not caring to try toget an easier shot is the base of the problem most have with his selection. Kobe has for most of his career been able to walk by his man into the lane....but he will jab step 4 times and take a fadeaway 19 footer.

Just....bothersome at times. No need to make it more than that.

This.

When you hear Kobe talk you get the feeling if he makes a layup , in his mind he believes he's hot and he's a gunner.Never seen someone just walk it up and take a 3 for the sake of it so many times lol.

[28renyoy]

Yep. I mean just look at the GOAT scorer MJ, averaged 40 for a season...
:rolleyes:

Hated to tell you, but Durant is the most efficient 25+ ppg scorer in NBA history. That's playoffs AND regular season. And that's with his rookie season counting for 20% of his data

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Kobe fans still refuse to 'get it'.

It's not the fg% itself, it's the type of shots and decisions that he makes.
yes, he took bad shots...and still made them at a remarkable clip. Many bad shots were taken due to shot clock...and still made them at a remarkable clip. Despite those many shots, his shooting percentage consistently ranks among the very best amongst guards scoring over 20ppg. And he did that while leading his team in assists every year.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Hated to tell you, but Durant is the most efficient 25+ ppg scorer in NBA history. That's playoffs AND regular season. And that's with his rookie season counting for 20% of his data
OMG He is so efficient :bowdown:

[NumberSix]

So I guess Kobe isn't a chucker considering he's a career 45% shooter, not 40%.
Lol. You say that as if 45% is some great percentage.


Look, if anyone at this point doesn't think Kobe is a "chucker", fine. G'head. I'm not gonna try to convince you.

[b1imtf]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?
A guy good enough to be starter since high school

[pegasus]

What Lebron does is ball-hogging. He keeps the ball in his hands until he can score or he can pass it to a teammate who has to shoot.

To me, that's a lot more selfish than "shot jacking", and has earned him only 1 ring in the last four years when his teams were favored to win it all each year.

Kobe's is a much better winning formula, which is being aggressive and putting pressure on the opponent all game long. 8 finals and 5 rings speak for themselves.

[Odinn]

LeBron's career fga 20.4 (27.6 ppg)
Kobe's fga as a starter 21.1 (27.4 ppg)

:oldlol: :oldlol:

[Heavincent]

Lol. You say that as if 45% is some great percentage.


Look, if anyone at this point doesn't think Kobe is a "chucker", fine. G'head. I'm not gonna try to convince you.

You said he was a 40% shooter. I just corrected you.

And 45% is good for a SG. Especially for a guy who was the only great perimeter shooter on the team for a lot of years.

[imnew09]

Kobe shot 43% last season. LeBron shot 53%. I don't care what position you play 10% difference is freakin huge

Tyson Chandler shot 0.679, so Chandler>Lebron? :facepalm

[NumberSix]

Hated to tell you, but Durant is the most efficient 25+ ppg scorer in NBA history. That's playoffs AND regular season. And that's with his rookie season counting for 20% of his data
:roll:

Dude, Wilt Chamberlain had a season where he averaged 50.4PPG on 50.6%.

[28renyoy]

:roll:

Dude, Wilt Chamberlain had a season where he averaged 50.4PPG on 50.6%.

He also shot 50% from the line and never took a 3. Durant shot 49.6% last year taking 5.2 3's per game, and making 2 of them. He's also an 88% free throw shooter for his career.

[G-Funk]

So does this mean that Dwight is the best player in the NBA. he shoots a much higher FG% and is by far a better defender than Lebron amirite?

[Calabis]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?

Wait, you are not going to magically erase his first two seasons, like you do when posting all his other stats to boost them???:confusedshrug:

20.95 after erasing those magical years of not starting

Like another poster said, I wouldn't care if Kobe shot 25 times a game....his bad shot selection is what makes him look like a chucker

[NumberSix]

stuff
Literally everything you say is wrong.

[Optimus Prime]

It's not chucking when you make 50% of your shots. It is when you make 40%.

Really not that hard to understand.

Kobe Bryant is a career .453 shooter.

LeBron James is a career .483 shooter.

WHOOPS another LeBron bandwagoner exposed.

:facepalm

:kobe:

[G-Funk]

LeBron's career fga 20.4 (27.6 ppg)
Kobe's fga as a starter 21.1 (27.4 ppg)

:oldlol: :oldlol:


Kobe stats as a starter

28/6/5 46% :worthy:

Jordan career stats:

30/6/5 49% 23fga

[Dave3]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?
If Kobe is the greatest scorer of his generation with 25.2 ppg, then what is LeBron with 27.6 ppg?

Works both ways.

Kobe fans love to exclude his first 3 years when it's convenient, but when it's not, you guys just include it in there for things to look better.

[SilkkTheShocker]

So does this mean that Dwight is the best player in the NBA. he shoots a much higher FG% and is by far a better defender than Lebron amirite?


Both are better than Kobe.

[28renyoy]

Literally everything you say is wrong.

Yes clearly, I'm wrong


http://bkref.com/tiny/9vHRi
http://bkref.com/tiny/Vl3Vv

Good god where do these idiots come from

[Calabis]

If Kobe is the greatest scorer of his generation with 25.2 ppg, then what is LeBron with 27.6 ppg?

Works both ways.

:applause:

[G-Funk]

Both are better than Kobe.

34yr old Kobe, no question

[28renyoy]

Yep. Posting facts=spewing :roll:

[The Iron Fist]

Wait, you are not going to magically erase his first two seasons, like you do when posting all his other stats to boost them???:confusedshrug:

20.95 after erasing those magical years of not starting

Like another poster said, I wouldn't care if Kobe shot 25 times a game....his bad shot selection is what makes him look like a chucker
Show me just one instance where ive taken years off. Just one. If not, stfu.

[The Iron Fist]

If Kobe is the greatest scorer of his generation with 25.2 ppg, then what is LeBron with 27.6 ppg?

Works both ways.

Kobe fans love to exclude his first 3 years when it's convenient, but when it's not, you guys just include it in there for things to look better.
Well that might work if i excluded things, but i didnt. This is the entire career. Go fail elsewhere.

[Dave3]

Well that might work if i excluded things, but i didnt. This is the entire career. Go fail elsewhere.
Alright, then my question still stands. If Kobe is the best scorer with 25.2, what's LeBron with 27.6? If I failed, you wouldn't of have avoided the question. Because you did, I know you're stumped. I'd love to see this though.

[kennethgriffin]

It's not chucking when you win 5 championships

Really not that hard to understand.

fixed




not hard to understand. but lebron fans fail to do so



its been the longest running joke since kobe began his career...

that being "people hate on how a person WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS"


what exactly is kobe supposed to do in order to win that allusive 5th round of the playoffs

i don't even know how hes supposed to get there... he wins the 4th round and for some reason the playoffs finish

:confusedshrug:



someone help me understand


:roll:


morons... every single lebron fan is missing a few marbles :hammerhead:

[The Iron Fist]

Alright, then my question still stands. If Kobe is the best scorer with 25.2, what's LeBron with 27.6? If I failed, you wouldn't of have avoided the question. Because you did, I know you're stumped. I'd love to see this though.
Obviously a shot jacking chucker.

Now what was avoided again?

[Dave3]

Obviously a shot jacking chucker.

Now what was avoided again?
You just said that averaging more points makes someone a shot jacking chucker. I guess you've now answered the question. The problem is that now the implication is that you think Kobe in 2003, 2006 and 2007 was by your own words "a shot jacking chucker" because he averaged high ppg.

[The Iron Fist]

You just said that averaging more points makes someone a shot jacking chucker. I guess you've now answered the question. The problem is that now the implication is that you think Kobe in 2003, 2006 and 2007 was by your own words "a shot jacking chucker" because he averaged high ppg.
No you flea. It has been said from the first post


FIELD
GOAL

Attempts!

[Dave3]

No you flea. It has been said from the first post


FIELD
GOAL

Attempts!
Wow, you're smart! I asked about ppg, you answered the question (about ppg) by saying LeBron's 27.6 ppg compared to Kobe's 25.2 make him a shot jacking chucker. That literally happened like 5 minutes ago. How did you already forget?

[The Iron Fist]

Wow, you're smart! I asked about ppg, you answered the question (about ppg) by saying LeBron's 27.6 ppg compared to Kobe's 25.2 make him a shot jacking chucker. That literally happened like 5 minutes ago. How did you already forget?
Doesnt matter what you asked for, i made the thread.

Its about attempts. Now **** off if you cant understand.

[Owl]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?
Shooting is done per minute. In Kobe's first 2 years he played only 15.5 minutes and 26 minutes per game. Exclude those and Kobe is at 21.1 shots a game.

He didn't take a role somewhat like that he has had up to and including last season until 2000-2001.

Allegations of shot-chucking relate in any case to efficiency. Nobody would complain if a player took every shot if they made them all and wasn't turning the ball over often it's about an efficient distribution of shots. LeBron's efficiency is superior.

However I would say that calling Kobe a "chucker" or a "shot jacker" as an insult is unfair. Kobe's field goal % hasn't been exceptional his ability to draw fouls (and convert the free throws) mean his shooting has been beneficial to his teams (with occasional exceptions: see 2004 Finals). In fact Kobe's main virtue is his ability to create shots (and convert some of the difficult ones he creates). Last year his percentage fell off and that is concerning. At a .527 true shooting percentage the value of the shots he's creating is marginal.



they think that 45 fg% is bad for a shooting guard or a high volume scorer

but when you look at all the 6-5 and under players in history that averaged over 25ppg at any time in their life... most shot around 45%

its good for an outside perimeter player

ray allen and rick barry are 2 of the greatest shooters ever. they shot 45% too
Not true. There a legit defenses for Kobe's shooting. His ability to draw fouls especially. But of the 151 25ppg seasons, 105 are at or above exactly 45%, 111 if we're just rounding to 2 significant figure. And many of those below 45% are from an earlier era when percentages were lower like Willie Naulls, Jack Twyman, Paul Arizin, Elgin Baylor etc. Pre-70s seasons account for 19 of the 46 player-seasons below 45%. Another one comes from mid year comeback MJ over just 17 games. The median percentage (76th player out the 151, is at .467 . So we can say "most" 25ppg scorers are at or above that percentage. But you have to be playing fairly loose with what "around" means if you're going to say that most 25ppg scorers were around 45%.
So to summarise, what you said is false. Kobe is (or at least was, as stated before his ability to create shots is becoming less valuable) fine shooting as much as he does/did because he can get to the line and convert. You can argue that many of the players (Dantley and Barkley for example) aren't comparable. You can say some of those scorers played in an era which was more favorable to offense (e.g. 80s high pace made it easier to get to 25 points, high percentages suggests it was easier to shoot a higher percentage). But what you can't do is make up "facts" that are demonstrably false.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=78&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=25&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=fg_pct

edited to correct a typo (a word was omitted)

[imdaman99]

Hated to tell you, but Durant is the most efficient 25+ ppg scorer in NBA history. That's playoffs AND regular season. And that's with his rookie season counting for 20% of his data
This isn't about Durant, the guy who got outplayed on the biggest of stages by someone else. Where was Mr Durants efficiency in the 4 th quarters of the finals outside of his home games? He had his tail tucked between his legs as he sat back and let Westbrook take on the Heat all by himself. Not impressed with a guy that can only score and his little ether impact.

Meanwhile Kobe even when he is off (game 7), did work on the glass.

[Dave3]

Doesnt matter what you asked for, i made the thread.

Its about attempts. Now **** off if you cant understand.
So you answer my question, then when your answer backfires "who cares what you asked???"

And you know exactly why my question matters. You're not that stupid.

[The Iron Fist]

So you answer my question, then when your answer backfires "who cares what you asked???"

And you know exactly why my question matters. You're not that stupid.
Who has the most fga per game for their career?

Whoever it is, is a shotjacking chucker.

Quit trying to hijack threads and make your own.

[Dave3]

Who has the most fga per game for their career?

Whoever it is, is a shotjacking chucker.

Quit trying to hijack threads and make your own.
And by that logic, whoever has the most ppg for their career is the better scorer. So according to you (or your logic) LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe.

Thank you for making it simple. :cheers:

[The Iron Fist]

And by that logic, whoever has the most ppg for their career is the better scorer. So according to you (or your logic) LeBron is a better scorer than Kobe.

Thank you for making it simple. :cheers:
Except we are talking fga.

Now would you like to make a thread about the better winner?

[Dave3]

Except we are talking fga.
What makes FGA/game show who's a bigger chucker that doesn't make PPG show who's a better scorer?

[28renyoy]

This isn't about Durant, the guy who got outplayed on the biggest of stages by someone else. Where was Mr Durants efficiency in the 4 th quarters of the finals outside of his home games? He had his tail tucked between his legs as he sat back and let Westbrook take on the Heat all by himself. Not impressed with a guy that can only score and his little ether impact.

Meanwhile Kobe even when he is off (game 7), did work on the glass.

Are you fvcking kidding me?

Durant averaged 31 ppg on an astronomical 62 eFG% in the Finals. Westbrook shot like 44 eFG%.

And LOL @ calling him out in the 4th quarter of his "non home games"

Durant shot 47.1% in the 4th quarter of the Finals in games played @ Miami which is higher than Kobe's career HIGH FG%

[tpols]

Are you fvcking kidding me?

Durant averaged 31 ppg on an astronomical 62 eFG% in the Finals. Westbrook shot like 44 eFG%.

And LOL @ calling him out in the 4th quarter of his "non home games"

Durant shot 47.1% in the 4th quarter of the Finals in games played @ Miami which is higher than Kobe's career HIGH FG%
Durant scores and that is it.

He grabs a few defensive boards a game that have very little impact with the frontline he has boxing out for him. If you put KD on a team like the Heat, he would get shit on down low and on the glass because thered be no one to move the bodies.

And aside from his incredibly efficient shooting? he does nothing.. cant break down good perimeter defenses, plays pvssy matador defense, and he cant pass. And, he isnt good at creating offense at will.. his comes more in the flow of a game spotting up at random times. Thats why youll see his team getting stomped but hell have like 40 on 70%TS and everyone will be like how is he doing so well but I havent noticed one bit?

It's because Durant doesnt affect his team's possesion on every play. He has like 15 plays a game where he scores a bucket and on the other 30 plays he does absolutely nothing. Where as guys like Lebron have a say in probably double that because they can create at will. Leads to more winning

[alleykat]

Kobe is an offensive and scoring beast!!! but he is a shot jacker....

in my eyes, if you're taking ill-advised shots that are way too hard and low of a percentage, with your team open to score from a great look, then you're a shot jacker. if you're a laker fan who's watched many games where he shoots the game away you could understand the idea of a shot jacker without looking at the percentages....

lebron takes better shots, but is not as deadly on offense as bryant.

[EllisGW]

are people really this clueless lol

kobe came off the bench his first year and average 7 points lol
his second year he was a solid player but not star level player averaging 14 points
obviously lebron shots attempts are close because he came into league average more 20 points and being star from day one .

[28renyoy]

Durant scores and that is it.

He grabs a few defensive boards a game that have very little impact with the frontline he has boxing out for him. If you put KD on a team like the Heat, he would get shit on down low and on the glass because thered be no one to move the bodies.

And aside from his incredibly efficient shooting? he does nothing.. cant break down good perimeter defenses, plays pvssy matador defense, and he cant pass. And, he isnt good at creating offense at will.. his comes more in the flow of a game spotting up at random times. Thats why youll see his team getting stomped but hell have like 40 on 70%TS and everyone will be like how is he doing so well but I havent noticed one bit?

It's because Durant doesnt affect his team's possesion on every play. He has like 15 plays a game where he scores a bucket and on the other 30 plays he does absolutely nothing. Where as guys like Lebron have a say in probably double that because they can create at will. Leads to more winning

Durant ranked 1st in the league among small forwards in rebounding last year.
Durant ranked 5th in the league among small forwards in assists last year.
Durant ranked 2nd in the league among small forwards in blocks last year.
Durant ranked 5th in the league among small forwards in steals last year.

Durant ranked 26th out of all 400+ NBA players in ISO defense last year.

Durant is also the only player in NBA history to score 30 ppg while playing off of the ball basketball.

He draws more attention off of the ball than probably any player in the history of the game. This essentially allows his teammates to play 4 on 4, when he doesn't have the ball, which is a distinct advantage. This is why you see plays like the one in the olympics where LeBron got a wide open dunk in the 4th quarter of the gold medal game

Spain was so worried about Durant, as he set the screen, they double teamed him and let LeBron drive right to the basket. This happens with regularity with Durant due to his scoring prowess which is unmatched.

Butthurt Kobe stans are now unleashing their anger at Durant :lol

Also Kobe Bryant, who is a GUARD, is averaging 4.7 assists per game for his career. Durant averaged 3.5 assists per game last season. A guard averaging 1.2 more assists per game than an off the ball forward? Yikes, talk about a black hole...

[G-Funk]

If Kobe is the greatest scorer of his generation with 25.2 ppg, then what is LeBron with 27.6 ppg?

Works both ways.

Kobe fans love to exclude his first 3 years when it's convenient, but when it's not, you guys just include it in there for things to look better.


And vice versa

[G-Funk]

Kobe is an offensive and scoring beast!!! but he is a shot jacker....

in my eyes, if you're taking ill-advised shots that are way too hard and low of a percentage, with your team open to score from a great look, then you're a shot jacker. if you're a laker fan who's watched many games where he shoots the game away you could understand the idea of a shot jacker without looking at the percentages....

lebron takes better shots, but is not as deadly on offense as bryant.

Considering Kobe took 2 more 3's per game than MJ/Bird//Magic he is a great shot jacker. He only missed 2 shots per game, less than Michael Jordan. in their career.

[Dave3]

And vice versa
And both parties who do so are pointless to reason with, because they're too blinded by bias, you agree?

[Rubio2Gasol]

Jordan average 23 FGA on his career.

FGA really doesn't mean that much Kobe takes some stupid shots but it's not really a big deal at the end of the day lol.If he actually cared about FG% he wouldn't be Kobe.

[KyrieTheFuture]

Kobe was only a shot jacker pretty much this last year, and that year he was literally the only person capable of scoring a basket on his team. 06? 07?

[alleykat]

Considering Kobe took 2 more 3's per game than MJ/Bird//Magic he is a great shot jacker. He only missed 2 shots per game, less than Michael Jordan. in their career.

huh??? are u only talking about 3's??? i didn't know shot jacking only mean treys....

shot jacking doesn't mean a bad player, just bad decision at times....kobe is one of the greatest, just terrible shot selection at times. same with jordan....

[Ikill]

Durant ranked 1st in the league among small forwards in rebounding last year.
Durant ranked 5th in the league among small forwards in assists last year.
Durant ranked 2nd in the league among small forwards in blocks last year.
Durant ranked 5th in the league among small forwards in steals last year.

Durant ranked 26th out of all 400+ NBA players in ISO defense last year.

Durant is also the only player in NBA history to score 30 ppg while playing off of the ball basketball.

He draws more attention off of the ball than probably any player in the history of the game. This essentially allows his teammates to play 4 on 4, when he doesn't have the ball, which is a distinct advantage. This is why you see plays like the one in the olympics where LeBron got a wide open dunk in the 4th quarter of the gold medal game

Spain was so worried about Durant, as he set the screen, they double teamed him and let LeBron drive right to the basket. This happens with regularity with Durant due to his scoring prowess which is unmatched.

Butthurt Kobe stans are now unleashing their anger at Durant :lol

Also Kobe Bryant, who is a GUARD, is averaging 4.7 assists per game for his career. Durant averaged 3.5 assists per game last season. A guard averaging 1.2 more assists per game than an off the ball forward? Yikes, talk about a black hole...
Turnovers

[ILLsmak]

Petition to ban Iron Fist.

Best way to get rid of him is not respond.

-Smak

[Ikill]

Lebrons shot selection before Miami is just as good/bad as Kobes other than 2012 and 2006. The reason Lebron is more efficient is because he finishes better at the basket

[KG215]

This thread is just....great.

Typical Kobe stan logic to cherry pick a stat that makes him look better, ignore context and circumstances, and repeat themselves over and over no matter how many times someone calls them on it.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

Pre-2010, Kobe played around half his career with a top 10 all time player.

LeBron played with Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

What do you think Kobe would average shots-wise with LeBron's 07 team?

[Ikill]

Pre-2010, Kobe played around half his career with a top 10 all time player.

LeBron played with Zydrunas Ilgauskas.

What do you think Kobe would average shots-wise with LeBron's 07 team?
07 Cavs>07 Lakers

[Rubio2Gasol]

Funny thing is...other than that one year when he just went crazy dropped 35 a game and embarrassed people, he shot less without Shaq than he had with him.

[alleykat]

07 Cavs>07 Lakers

wuutttttttttt.....debatable....they both were bad

[The Iron Fist]

Petition to ban Iron Fist.

Best way to get rid of him is not respond.

-Smak
Lol. Hes leakin'!

[Ikill]

wuutttttttttt.....debatable....they both were bad
no its not debatable and the Cavs were not bad.
They were 3-1 without Lebron
They were a top 5 defensive and rebounding team
Lebron played terrible in the playoffs but they still got to the finals losing by only 3 points in game 3 and 1 point in game 4.

[LA_Showtime]

It has nothing to do with the number of shots Kobe takes. He's always been a dominant scorer, no question. But my issue is what type of shots he's taking and how he's getting those shots. Despite his alleged basketball IQ, Kobe is terrible at moving without the ball and getting good looks within the offense. He used to thrive at breaking his man down and/or simply rising above the defender and scoring, but anymore he's just a guy who stagnates the offense and takes horrible shots all while putting his teammates in situations to fail. He couldn't even fit in on the Olympic team. He, Westbrook, and to a lesser extent Williams were the only guys who continued to dominate the ball and get Team USA out of whack offensively. It's one of many reasons I'm not convinced this Lakers squad will win a championship. He and Nash won't fit together unless Kobe completely changes up his game.

[Papaya Petee]

You don't even have to bring up LeBron to support this example that Kobe is inefficient and a shot-jacker and the most overrated scorer. "Greatest scorer of our generation my ass"

Dwyane Wade (career) 25.3 PPG 48.6% FG 18.28 FGA 6.2 APG
Kobe Bryant (career) 25.3 PPG 45.3% FG 19.55 FGA 4.7 APG

If a 6'3 guy who apparently has "no jumpshot" is a better scorer and passer then Kobe, then I don't think Kobe can compare to LeBron, just saying.

A layup is worth just as much as a triple pumpfake fadeaway jumpshot. His shot selection is awful, and that's what people hate on him for.

[Heavincent]

You don't even have to bring up LeBron to support this example that Kobe is inefficient and a shot-jacker and the most overrated scorer. "Greatest scorer of our generation my ass"

Dwyane Wade (career) 25.3 PPG 48.6% FG 18.28 FGA 6.2 APG
Kobe Bryant (career) 25.3 PPG 45.3% FG 19.55 FGA 4.7 APG

If a 6'3 guy who apparently has "no jumpshot" is a better scorer and passer then Kobe, then I don't think Kobe can compare to LeBron, just saying.

A layup is worth just as much as a triple pumpfake fadeaway jumpshot. His shot selection is awful, and that's what people hate on him for.

lol at even comparing D-Whistle to Kobe. Kobe is on another level.

[longtime lurker]

Lol at including Kobe's stats when he wasn't even a starter

Lol at comparing Kobe's scoring average to Lebron's considering one is still in his prime and one is on the tail end of his career.

Agendas abound in this thread

[KG215]

lol at even comparing D-Whistle to Kobe. Kobe is on another level.

Don't think I'd got quite that far. Yes, historically Kobe is going to rank 15-20 spots higher than Wade, but their peaks aren't that far off. Wade has just had trouble staying healthy. And while from 2005-2010 Kobe was arguably the best player in the game, Wade wasn't too far behind; and in 2009 he might have been better.

And before you respond with yor typical "lol" emoticons and bring up "D-Whistle", from '05-'06 to '09-'10 Wade shot 9.8 FTs per game to Kobe's 8.7; factor in how many more jumpers Kobe shoots, and how much more Wade attacks the basket, and 1.1 more FTA per game is about right.

And in those five seasons ('05-'06 to '09-'10) their numbers are very comparable.

Kobe: 29.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.4 bpg, 19.7 FGA/PG .459/.348/.847
Wade: 27.4 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 7.0 rpg, 2.0 spg, 1.0 bpg, 22.6 FGA/PG .485/.288/.775

Not saying Wade is/was better but at his peak (which happened to coincide with Kobe's peak) Kobe wasn't on "another level" than Wade.

[dajadeed]

Don't think I'd got quite that far. Yes, historically Kobe is going to rank 15-20 spots higher than Wade, but their peaks aren't that far off. Wade has just had trouble staying healthy. And while from 2005-2010 Kobe was arguably the best player in the game, Wade wasn't too far behind; and in 2009 he might have been better.

And before you respond with yor typical "lol" emoticons and bring up "D-Whistle", from '05-'06 to '09-'10 Wade shot 9.8 FTs per game to Kobe's 8.7; factor in how many more jumpers Kobe shoots, and how much more Wade attacks the basket, and 1.1 more FTA per game is about right.

And in those five seasons ('05-'06 to '09-'10) their numbers are very comparable.

Kobe: 29.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.4 bpg, 19.7 FGA/PG .459/.348/.847
Wade: 27.4 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 7.0 rpg, 2.0 spg, 1.0 bpg, 22.6 FGA/PG .485/.288/.775

Not saying Wade is/was better but at his peak (which happened to coincide with Kobe's peak) Kobe wasn't on "another level" than Wade.

Retards with their stats. Kobe Bryant at his best absolutely SHITS on Wade. Not just a level, but maybe two above him.

81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, string of 35 plus point games, string of 40 plus games, 55 points in a half.

And Kobe was a much better defender than Wade ever was.

It's just not even really close.

[KG215]

Retards with their stats.
Then what's this?


81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, string of 35 plus point games, string of 40 plus games, 55 points in a half.
Not to mention, being a better scorer doesn't make someone better.


Kobe Bryant at his best absolutely SHITS on Wade. Not just a level, but maybe two above him.
Historically, yes, Kobe is a level or maybe even two above Wade. Peak compared to peak, though, no.


And Kobe was a much better defender than Wade ever was.
No, he wasn't. Want to say Kobe was a better defender than Wade at their best? Fine, he probably was the better on-ball defender; but he wasn't a "much better defender than Wade ever was."


It's just not even really close.
Peak compared to peak yes, it is closer than you and other Kobe stans will ever admit. I call you a Kobe stan because, like the other ones on ISH, the 81 point game and 62 points in three quarters is a go-to stat, fact, whatever, to say he's better than someone.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Retards with their stats. Kobe Bryant at his best absolutely SHITS on Wade. Not just a level, but maybe two above him.

81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, string of 35 plus point games, string of 40 plus games, 55 points in a half.

And Kobe was a much better defender than Wade ever was.

It's just not even really close.
Lol Kobe couldn't win with Shaq against the Pistons guess what D-Wade did 2 years later beat the Pistons, and they would've won in 05 but D-Wade got injured. Also Shaq wasn't as productive as he was in '04.
Kobe against the Pistons 38% FG, 17 3 Pointers.

[Heavincent]

Don't think I'd got quite that far. Yes, historically Kobe is going to rank 15-20 spots higher than Wade, but their peaks aren't that far off. Wade has just had trouble staying healthy. And while from 2005-2010 Kobe was arguably the best player in the game, Wade wasn't too far behind; and in 2009 he might have been better.

And before you respond with yor typical "lol" emoticons and bring up "D-Whistle", from '05-'06 to '09-'10 Wade shot 9.8 FTs per game to Kobe's 8.7; factor in how many more jumpers Kobe shoots, and how much more Wade attacks the basket, and 1.1 more FTA per game is about right.

And in those five seasons ('05-'06 to '09-'10) their numbers are very comparable.

Kobe: 29.8 ppg, 5.6 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.6 spg, 0.4 bpg, 19.7 FGA/PG .459/.348/.847
Wade: 27.4 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 7.0 rpg, 2.0 spg, 1.0 bpg, 22.6 FGA/PG .485/.288/.775

Not saying Wade is/was better but at his peak (which happened to coincide with Kobe's peak) Kobe wasn't on "another level" than Wade.

Kobe's peak is clearly better. Maybe not "far" better, but it is clear who had the better prime/peak. And then when you factor in Kobe's longevity...it's not even close.

[PJR]

Retards with their stats.

Mad that you can't refute them? Sounds so. :oldlol:

It's going to funy when Wade finishes the same amount of rings, and has a identical career core numbers on better effciency in comparison to Bryant. But yet the stans will still try to argue "it's not close"...:oldlol:

And miss me with all 62 n the three quarters, 81 points bullsht. Big deal. He's a historically great streak scorer. Nice.. That's not what the game is all about though, chump.

You don't want me to post Wade's numbers in 2008-2009 post all star break. It's video gameish. Dude was playing like a 6-4 LeBron, posting 30 point and 40 point near triple doubles every other night.

[KG215]

Kobe's peak is clearly better. Maybe not "far" better, but it is clear who had the better prime/peak. And then when you factor in Kobe's longevity...it's not even close.

I'm not talking about longevity. I think I've clearly pointed that out. I also clearly stated that historically Kobe ranks 15-20 spots higher, and rightfully so.

But Wade, in his absolute best seasons, and at his peak, is very close to Kobe at his absolute best and at his peak.

[Rubio2Gasol]

That 62 in 3 quarters was different.

Shits on almost everything I've seen in my life lol,but it's not like Kobe does that every night.

@KG his defense during the 3 peat was better than anything I've seen from Wade....had trouble with bigger guards but those were relatively rare....he was an amazing all round defender at the time.

Kobe to me was a bit better than Wade ever was in 01 and 02...don't have stats to back it up lol, just my opinion.

Wade has had some amazing moments in his career, but he was dangling in Melo territory for a couple years there before Bron and Bosh came.

Kobe takes alot of heat for the Pistons loss, but that team was a all time great defensive team that doubled him on almost every possession, he's not gonna shoot a high clip. Shaq probably should've gotten more touches, but Wallace denied the shit out of him.

Defensively he was the only one who gave a shit.

Honestly....if Zone was allowed back then and Shaq didn't have to come out on high picks and stuff, I could see them winning the series.

[Boston C's]

they think that 45 fg% is bad for a shooting guard or a high volume scorer

but when you look at all the 6-5 and under players in history that averaged over 25ppg at any time in their life... most shot around 45%

its good for an outside perimeter player

ray allen and rick barry are 2 of the greatest shooters ever. they shot 45% too

Allen is a good example...ppl look at him now shooting like 50 percent and 44 from 3 and are impressed but thats mainly because hes not a focal point on offense and hes old...Allen and rick barry in their primes were the focal points of their offense and defenses gameplanned to stop them night in and night out...itll be a lot tougher shooting 50 percent when you know the opposing D will key in on you every night...a good example would be this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Alasu8wYA

Ray allen had to work for all of his shots...only one catch and shoot 3 in this video...the rest were off the dribble and really tough shots... your not going to get easy looks when the opposing D and coaching staff is geared to slowing you down night in and night out

I know that most ppl on this board also think allen was a strictly catch and shoot player his whole career too when for 10 yrs before coming to boston he was the man on his team

[RRR3]

1. LeBron shoots much higher %
2. LeBron shoots less these days because he's not required to score as much as he was in Cleveland
3. LeBron shoots a lot more than people act like he does, but he converts at a high rate and doesn't have games where he negatively impacts the outcome by shotjacking
4. Per 36 minutes for careers, Kobe averages 19.3 FGA, LeBron 18.4. Just sayin':confusedshrug:

[Mach_3]

It's not chucking when you make 50% of your shots. It is when you make 40%.

Really not that hard to understand.


.....:roll: :roll: :roll:

[dajadeed]

Mad that you can't refute them? Sounds so. :oldlol:

It's going to funy when Wade finishes the same amount of rings, and has a identical career core numbers on better effciency in comparison to Bryant. But yet the stans will still try to argue "it's not close"...:oldlol:

And miss me with all 62 n the three quarters, 81 points bullsht. Big deal. He's a historically great streak scorer. Nice.. That's not what the game is all about though, chump.

You don't want me to post Wade's numbers in 2008-2009 post all star break. It's video gameish. Dude was playing like a 6-4 LeBron, posting 30 point and 40 point near triple doubles every other night.

Listen, chump, the team that scores the most wins in basketball. Sorry to break it to you, f.a.g.g.o.t., but scoring is important.

Kobe Bryant on the offensive end just shits on DWade. He was a better defender, but offensively he was several level ahead of Wade. SEVERAL.

It's not even close. Kobe had no weakness offensively. NONE.

Wade still doesn't have a solid jumper.

[Rubio2Gasol]

1. LeBron shoots much higher %
2. LeBron shoots less these days because he's not required to score as much as he was in Cleveland
3. LeBron shoots a lot more than people act like he does, but he converts at a high rate and doesn't have games where he negatively impacts the outcome by shotjacking
4. Per 36 minutes for careers, Kobe averages 19.3 FGA, LeBron 18.4. Just sayin':confusedshrug:

Lebron operates in a smarter and more conservative fashion than Kobe over the course of the entire season.

He tries a bit harder to maximize each possession since he's gotten to Miami,.

In a weird was I think than kind of limits his affect on opposing defenses at times, they can play him a certain way and anticipate what he's gonna try to do in different scenarios.

I think he needs to start forcing teams to adjust to him a bit more , he started doing it well this last playoffs, if he continues attacks in every way possible and starts making defenses adjust to him more, he's gonna be better than Kobe ever was.

[Alan Shore]

put bryant on the lakers instead of magic how much do they win.
put lebron on the lakers instead of how much do they win?

same scenario with replacing jordan on the bulls.
or replacing bird on the celtics.

it's a worthwhile thought experiment.

[PJR]

Kobe Bryant on the offensive end just shits on DWade.



Too bad the career numbers don't reflect this statment. :oldlol:

[thelucifer69]

2 years came of the bench

4 years at 2rd opt scorer

--------------------------

in fact

Kobe 36.5 MPG

LBJ 39.9 MPG

--------------------------

Per 36 Minutes

Kobe 19.3 FGA

LBJ 18.4 FGA

[riseagainst]

It's not chucking when you make 50% of your shots. It is when you make 40%.

Really not that hard to understand.

45%, silly.

[riseagainst]

let's put it this way. wade is close to Kobe the same way Kobe is close to MJ.

[andgar923]

This isnt about fg%.

But attempts dipshit.

You still don't get it.

:facepalm :banghead:

Chucking isn't necessarily the amount of shots one takes, but the 'type' of shots they take.

Jamal Crawford doesn't take as many shots as many players, but most will agree he's a shot jacker. So whether one takes 10 or 20, it's about the quality of shots most of us criticize them for.

Kobe will play good and smart for about half the possessions, then he just makes inexplicable decisions with the ball and force others

[NumberSix]

I'm not talking about longevity. I think I've clearly pointed that out. I also clearly stated that historically Kobe ranks 15-20 spots higher, and rightfully so.

But Wade, in his absolute best seasons, and at his peak, is very close to Kobe at his absolute best and at his peak.
Peak Wade > peak Kobe.

People need to just get over it with Kobe. Stop acting like he was ever some kind of "player of a generation" type of guy.

Kobe Bryant is the Troy Aikman of the NBA. A very good player who had the good fortune of being on a very good team with very good teammates, who in some cases where better than himself.

[PJR]

let's put it this way. wade is close to Kobe the same way Kobe is close to MJ.

Yeah, uh....NO.

[AlonzoGOAT]

LMAOOOOOOOOOO the op is is hilarious he probably hasn't taking algebra and goes to community college. Proves Obama can't fix this shit educational system

[Heavincent]

Peak Wade > peak Kobe.

People need to just get over it with Kobe. Stop acting like he was ever some kind of "player of a generation" type of guy.

Kobe Bryant is the Troy Aikman of the NBA. A very good player who had the good fortune of being on a very good team with very good teammates, who in some cases where better than himself.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Retard.

[livingby3's]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/media/photo/2011-12/66987352.jpg



Shot selections. Nobody is going to deny Kobe is a very capable scorer, but forcing shots rather than going with the flow of the game, is not good basketball

[NumberSix]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Retard.
Point out 1 single thing that wasn't 100% accurate.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Give me peak Wade and Lebron over Kobe, more efficient, unselfish, and get their teammates involved.

[Heavincent]

Point out 1 single thing that wasn't 100% accurate.

The entire post. That was honestly one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

I think we're done here.

[NumberSix]

The entire post. That was honestly one of the dumbest things I have ever read.

I think we're done here.
:roll:

You got nuffin' :roll:



"Who the **** you think you ****in' wit', I'm the ****in' boss"

:confusedshrug:

http://therecshow.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/KimKardashian_IceCream.jpg

[gregboy55]

the difference is that lebron would pass to the open man when kobe would shoot over a triple team


This. x 1000

[alleykat]

i don't get how people refuse to consider shot selection in their criteria???

[comerb]

Then what is lebron w 20.4 fga?

I don't think you understand what shot jacking chucker means. It's not about how many shots you take, it's about the quality and efficiency on which you score.

There is a reason Jordan and Lebron aren't considered chuckers, and Kobe & Iverson are. Kobe and Iverson took/take lots of low quality contested shots and miss a lot more often than Jordan/Lebron as a result. That's why they are chuckers.

[comerb]

ray allen and rick barry are 2 of the greatest shooters ever. they shot 45% too


:biggums:
Really?


Allen shot selection consisted of a significant amount of 3 pointers, and Barry was a bit of a chucker and renowned terrible teammate. If you want to pull someone from that era that was actually a great player, look at Jerry West. He shot .474 and had more range than Barry.

[franchiez]

Who has the highest fga in history?

[riseagainst]

Yeah, uh....NO.

Yeah, uh....YES.

[riseagainst]

Who has the highest fga in history?

www.google.com

Kareem has most attempted.

[Poetry]

Who has the highest fga in history?

Yearly breakdown.

Obviously, take into account games played.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fga_yearly.html

Likely Chamberlain has the FGA's in one season and KAJ has it total all-time. So no real need to look it up.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Yearly breakdown.

Obviously, take into account games played.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fga_yearly.html

Likely Chamberlain has the FGA's in one season and KAJ has it total all-time. So no real need to look it up.

Stack and Walker :roll:

Stack was a different level of Chucker lol

[Ne 1]

The truth about Kobe Bryant: He's not a shot-jacker


Dynamic Efficiency, the Nash Equilibrium, & Kobe as an undershooter


Thus, we have Goldman's concept of dynamic efficiency. To quote him: "A shot is realized only if its expected value exceeds the continuation value of a possession."

Some of the ideas Goldman presented were straightforward -- players become more aggressive (and less efficient) with shot selection later in the shot clock, point guards & wings are naturally better than bigs at creating effective opportunities, and teams with either low experience or high salary are ineffective at allocating shots effectively. (Just ask the Heat last night.)

Much more fascinating, however, was his extrapolation of this concept into the idea of "overshooters" and "undershooters." Using his model of dynamic efficiency in the shot clock, Goldman found that since 2006 (not including this season) the best players in the NBA more significantly undershoot than the top gunners overshoot -- and the numbers aren't close.

Within the stipulated time frame, the top seven "undershooters" were Chris Paul, Brandon Roy, LeBron James, Al Jefferson, Joe Johnson, Amare Stoudemire and Vince Carter. Pretty surprising, right? All seven of these guys are known for their relatively high-usage offensive game (although Carter isn't anymore, for a variety of reasons), and yet they're considered the biggest undershooters according to Goldman's data.

The top seven overshooters? Russell Westbrook leads the way, followed by Tyrus Thomas, Lamar Odom, Monta Ellis, Larry Hughes, Drew Gooden, and Tracy McGrady. This list is less surprising -- all seven of these guys are known for shooting more than they should, although Westbrook has turned a corner this year.

What's also notable is that the undershooters "undershot" almost twice as much as the overshooters "overshot." But the most surprising revelation had to be Goldman's figures on Kobe Bryant, which found that he slightly leaned towards the side of undershooting. I don't think anyone in NBA history has accused Kobe of undershooting before (the second half of Game 7 in the 2006 Western Conference first-round exit excluded), but Goldman stood by his formula. Needless to say, watching this presentation left me with far more questions than answers.


http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25985/dynamic-efficiency-the-nash-equilibrium-kobe-as-an-undershooter


This finally puts to bed the myth that Kobe is a shot jacker, statistics are quite revealing...
What do you think?

By the way, the research was done by a Research Scientist who works for Yahoo! Research Labs. For those who want to read the research paper, I provided a link below, which was presented at the MIT SLOAN Sports Analytics Conference.

http://www.justinmrao.com/goldman_rao.pdf

[jlip]

Who has the highest fga in history?

In terms of per game averages I think Baylor is #1 and MJ is #2.

[Poetry]

post

Do you ever have your own independent thoughts or are you satisfied with copy/pasting other people's ideas?

[riseagainst]

Stack and Walker :roll:

Stack was a different level of Chucker lol

22ppg on 39% wow,.......

[Poetry]

22ppg on 39% wow,.......

Like Scottie Pippen...only without the defense, heart of a champion and efficiency :D

[Ne 1]

Do you ever have your own independent thoughts or are you satisfied with copy/pasting other people's ideas?

So what if I copy and pasted an article?

It doesn't make it any less true.

[Rubio2Gasol]

There was this 1 year, I think it was the year Grant Hill had left,in a cruel turn of events Stack was probably the best scorer on the team lol, I remember he had a decent season, and then they got to the playoffs and he just sucked worse than anyone in the history of the league has ever sucked.

It was pitiful lol.

[Poetry]

So what if I copy and pasted an article?

It doesn't make it any less true.

Shows you haven't even assimilated the knowledge. At least paraphrase it. If you're going to argue, speak up for yourself. No one is going to be afraid of a man who let's someone else fight for him.

Having a firm grasp of a subject mean being able to discuss it on your own. Looks like you're either unwilling or unable to do that. So why should anyone take that opinion seriously?

If anything, if you're simply going to rehash someone else's ideas, it's going to hurt those ideas in the long run, since no one else can defend them. It's like saying, "well my cult leader says....so it must be true." Show a little initiative and add to the discussion.

[Ne 1]

Shows you haven't even assimilated the knowledge. At least paraphrase it. If you're going to argue, speak up for yourself. No one is going to be afraid of a man who let's someone else fight for him.

Having a firm grasp of a subject mean being able to discuss it on your own. Looks like you're either unwilling or unable to do that. So why should anyone take that opinion seriously?

If anything, if you're simply going to rehash someone else's ideas, it's going to hurt those ideas in the long run, since no one else can defend them. It's like saying, "well my cult leader says....so it must be true." Show a little initiative and add to the discussion.


http://htmlgiant.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/internet-serious-business.jpg

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

Chucking = taking bad shots.
Kobe takes many bad shots, hence, never shooting over 47% for a single season in his 16 season career.

LeBron doesn't take many bad shots, hence, shooting over 50% many seasons and having a career average better than Kobe's best single season average.

Everyone takes bad shots though. You think people such as LeBron or Jordan never took rushed, bad shots in traffic or while being heavily contested? You guys act as if Kobe shoots 20 jumpers while being triple teamed all game. The only bad shots he really takes are his rushed/long 3 pointers. A fadeaway from 15 or a layup at the rim (the majority of his shots) aren't bad shots for him. They're very makeable.

If he takes as many crazy shots as you guys say, it's actually more impressive that he shoots 45-46%.

[alleykat]

The truth about Kobe Bryant: He's not a shot-jacker


Dynamic Efficiency, the Nash Equilibrium, & Kobe as an undershooter




http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/post/_/id/25985/dynamic-efficiency-the-nash-equilibrium-kobe-as-an-undershooter


This finally puts to bed the myth that Kobe is a shot jacker, statistics are quite revealing...
What do you think?

By the way, the research was done by a Research Scientist who works for Yahoo! Research Labs. For those who want to read the research paper, I provided a link below, which was presented at the MIT SLOAN Sports Analytics Conference.

http://www.justinmrao.com/goldman_rao.pdf

wut this doesn't put to bed anything at all lol....

First and foremost its "undershooters" are a concept, not proven. This article also states that it deals with players who have the ball and their dynamic efficiency, not those without the ball, in any given amount of seconds closing in on the shot clock - which means it doesn't take into account the percentage of teammates who do have a shot without the ball at that given possession, and their efficiency.

it states that at any given point his efficiency is higher to shoot than it will be if there was a continuation of the ball, yet it does nothing to say about the efficiency of other players if they were to catch and shoot it and whether it would be higher than the current player with the ball....

"Goldman didn't expand on how much under shooters were actually hurting their team." (this part you did not post)


exactly. it doesn't explain or tell you guys that your efficiency goes down as the clock winds down and you are forced to make plays. If kobe has the ball in the closing seconds, then decides to shoot it's because he undershoots and his percentage is higher than if he continued. But what about the other players? if kobe passed to them then their dynamic efficiency would already be down due to kobe having the ball and only giving them the ball when there are no other options in the final seconds - therefore kobe of course would undershoot because passing to the other players would be less efficient because in the final seconds they would be left with a low percentage shot due to him trying to iso.......

this doesn't do anything to show that he has other teammates who could take a better shot if they had the ball in the closing 24 seconds and if set up correctly...

Like I said before take everything with a grain of salt, you can't just slap it on a post and say it's from research to prove a point.

[Clutch]

So how has kobe led the team in assists for the past 15 years?
If you don't pass you can't get an assist. You can't pass the ball if you don't have it. That's why Kobe's teammates don't have any assists and that's why he's leading the team in assists :lol

[riseagainst]

If you don't pass you can't get an assist. You can't pass the ball if you don't have it. That's why Kobe's teammates don't have any assists and that's why he's leading the team in assists :lol

people have no common sense/logic these days. how does this make any sense? You can only get assists if you passed the ball. :facepalm
if kobe doesn't pass then he'd have 0 assists.

[KG215]

people have no common sense/logic these days. how does this make any sense? You can only get assists if you passed the ball. :facepalm
if kobe doesn't pass then he'd have 0 assists.

Kobe is a ball dominant SG who's never played with a true playmaking PG. Of course he passes, that's not what he was saying. But Kobe leading his team in assists, given the circumstances, isn't a big surprise.

[riseagainst]

Kobe is a ball dominant SG who's never played with a true playmaking PG. Of course he passes, that's not what he was saying. But Kobe leading his team in assists, given the circumstances, isn't a big surprise.

I know what he meant to say, and you explained it well. His wording is extremely 1 sided.

[BrickingStar]

I know what he meant to say, and you explained it well. His wording is extremely 1 sided.
Just like the op and you're post lately all about LeBron. Enjoy the reds btw :applause:

[riseagainst]

Just like the op and you're post lately all about LeBron. Enjoy the reds btw :applause:

my post was about Lebron? learn to read... and use the right grammar.
Don't act like none of your posts are about Kobe. :lol
obvious troll is obvious.

[BrickingStar]

my post was about Lebron? learn to read... and use the right grammar.
Don't act like none of your posts are about Kobe. :lol
obvious troll is obvious.
Isn't that what you post about abut 90% of the time? That's why you're in the reds for being a retard and contradicting you're self in bold.

[riseagainst]

Isn't that what you post about abut 90% of the time? That's why you're in the reds for being a retard and contradicting you're self in bold.


how did I contradict myself?
this is the only time I've posted about grammar because you are a complete retard. The only types of posts I've seen you write up are either: straight insults to another poster who doesn't agree with your retarded logic, or insults about another player, mainly kobe.
And the reason I'm in red is prolly because Lebron stans don't like the reality of the stuff I've posted. But I honestly don't care. I'm just posting the facts, while you just post biased opinions.
Have a good day responding to this one because you feel sooo on top of the world right now with your greens arguing with a red. :lol

[jjayfive]

this comparison is lame.. kobe have been on some pretty stacked teams and managed to jack up shots.. lebron was a one man show most of his career... you also have to take into account the kind of shots kobe was taking.. I'm a fan, but he takes some of the worse shots I've ever seen.. I'm a Laker fan BTW

[Jax]

people have no common sense/logic these days. how does this make any sense? You can only get assists if you passed the ball. :facepalm
if kobe doesn't pass then he'd have 0 assists.
How much of an idiot can you be? He's saying Kobe teammates can't get assists because they barely have the ball, get it?:facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

If Lebron didn't score, who was for those awful Cavalier teams?

[riseagainst]

How much of an idiot can you be? He's saying Kobe teammates can't get assists because they barely have the ball, get it?:facepalm


I'm the idiot? haha wow... kobe haters have no logic. If kobe's teammates don't get the ball, then Kobe would have no assists, get it? :facepalm
it's a chicken and the egg situation. You can twist it to whichever side you want it to be.
You can say "you can't get assists if your teammate (kobe) doesn't pass to you", but how does it explain Kobe having the most assists on his team? He had to have passed it to his teammates to score, no? :confusedshrug:

Yeah i'm a huge idiot cause thats supposed to make alot of sense....

[funnystuff]

Kobe is getting destroyed in this thread.


Put Kobe fans on suicide watch.