View Full Version : Should the NBA change the rules and let High School players enter the Draft?
Shade8780
08-14-2012, 06:10 PM
I think they should.
CavaliersFTW
08-14-2012, 06:15 PM
I think they should.
Just what the league needs, more overpayed children :facepalm
Absolutely they should. If they are good enough to play, then let them play.
Why should a player have to go elsewhere to play for a year before they can play in the NBA?
What good is that going to do?
Math2
08-14-2012, 06:17 PM
I think they should.
I think you're an idiot.
Math2
08-14-2012, 06:19 PM
Absolutely they should. If they are good enough to play, then let them play.
Why should a player have to go elsewhere to play for a year before they can play in the NBA?
What good is that going to do?
I know, they should play at least 3.
Maybe it would make them develop some skills before they go into the NBA...Rather than being immature flops.
There has been no really good, mature high school right out of the gun. Kobe sucked the first few years, and LeBron is immature. You think he wouldn't be more mature (maybe) if he went to college? Also: You think that players might learn to talk if they went to college (aka John Wall...I don't think anything could help his understanding of English).
liquidrage
08-14-2012, 06:23 PM
Yes, but they should allow teams to retain players rights without signing them. Just like the NHL which does it right.
So IOW all these kids that suck in the NBA for a few years would actually stay in college till the pro team wanted them. And the rare Lebron type would probably come in right away.
Example. OKC drafts Westbrook but tells him they want him to stay in school at least one more year to learn PG there as opposed to on the fly in the NBA. Rose the Bulls might have asked for one more year.
It's so obvious they should do this that they never will.
In lieu of this I'd prefer a 3 year rule over what it is now. Now is crap.
alleykat
08-14-2012, 06:39 PM
yes!!! they need more Kwame Browns
Problem is they're getting paid insane amounts to learn how to play at a strong competitive level, then after a few years become worth their actual contract...
there are exceptions of course
IGotACoolStory
08-14-2012, 06:47 PM
Enter the draft or if you go to college, you have to stay 2 years (so we stop watering down the college game, which is what the 1 and done rule achieved).
That way the elite and the people who don't want to deal with college can go straight away and test their luck. Those who go to college will likely be 2 or even 1 year away from a degree if they leave early, colleges can stop abusing the academic side of the system with 1 and done players, and players stay long enough to mature the physical and mental sides of their game.
Hopefully the NBA teams would choose wisely when it comes with high school prospects. But of course we know that won't happen.
FireDavidKahn
08-14-2012, 06:53 PM
I think they should.
Compelling argument.:rolleyes:
They need to mimic the NFL model and increase it so these kids can get educated.
I know, they should play at least 3.
Maybe it would make them develop some skills before they go into the NBA...Rather than being immature flops.
There has been no really good, mature high school right out of the gun. Kobe sucked the first few years, and LeBron is immature. You think he wouldn't be more mature (maybe) if he went to college? Also: You think that players might learn to talk if they went to college (aka John Wall...I don't think anything could help his understanding of English).Why should an athlete be required to play sports for a school in order to make it his profession?
Colleges are schools. Playing sports for a college is supposed to be an extra-curricular activity.
The only reason players play basketball in college is because there isn't a better alternative. There are no other basketball leagues. Playing for a school gives them the best chance to get drafted.
Colleges have no right to players.
And if a team is willing to pick somebody up out of high school, then that is their business. If a team thinks they won't develop skills or will be immature flops, then they wouldn't pick them up in the first place.
FireDavidKahn
08-14-2012, 06:55 PM
Yes, but they should allow teams to retain players rights without signing them. Just like the NHL which does it right.
So IOW all these kids that suck in the NBA for a few years would actually stay in college till the pro team wanted them. And the rare Lebron type would probably come in right away.
Example. OKC drafts Westbrook but tells him they want him to stay in school at least one more year to learn PG there as opposed to on the fly in the NBA. Rose the Bulls might have asked for one more year.
It's so obvious they should do this that they never will.
In lieu of this I'd prefer a 3 year rule over what it is now. Now is crap.
That's not even possible. Once you declare for the draft and sign with an agent you cannot play NCAA ball again.
I know, they should play at least 3.
Maybe it would make them develop some skills before they go into the NBA...Rather than being immature flops.
There has been no really good, mature high school right out of the gun. Kobe sucked the first few years, and LeBron is immature. You think he wouldn't be more mature (maybe) if he went to college? Also: You think that players might learn to talk if they went to college (aka John Wall...I don't think anything could help his understanding of English).
LeBron 20.9/5.9/5.5 and his team chose to play him 39.5 minutes a game. He got rookie of the year. But clearly he was useless.
Moses Malone 18.8/14.6 played 38.6 minutes a game.
But clearly you're right no player has been good straight out of high school. And I'd be curious as to how you know whether a player is mature, do you spend time with them? Finally if as you imply with Wall, many players are lost causes why on earth would you waste years in which they are near the peak of their athleticism trying to educate them?
Enter the draft or if you go to college, you have to stay 2 years (so we stop watering down the college game, which is what the 1 and done rule achieved).
That way the elite and the people who don't want to deal with college can go straight away and test their luck. Those who go to college will likely be 2 or even 1 year away from a degree if they leave early, colleges can stop abusing the academic side of the system with 1 and done players, and players stay long enough to mature the physical and mental sides of their game.
Hopefully the NBA teams would choose wisely when it comes with high school prospects. But of course we know that won't happen.What is the deal with people not wanting to "water down the college game"?
Colleges have no rights to players. College teams are made up of college students. You are trying to treat it like a professional league.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 06:59 PM
Compelling argument.:rolleyes:
They need to mimic the NFL model and increase it so these kids can get educated.
As if athletes go to school for the education. :facepalm
FireDavidKahn
08-14-2012, 07:02 PM
As if athletes go to school for the education. :facepalm
That's what I'm saying, they NEED it. There are too many dumbasses in the league.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 07:04 PM
That's what I'm saying, they NEED it. There are too many dumbasses in the league.
Why? Do we watch them solve calculus problems or put a ball in a hoop?
That's what I'm saying, they NEED it. There are too many dumbasses in the league.And then they'll be educated dumbasses.
FireDavidKahn
08-14-2012, 07:05 PM
Why? Do we watch them solve calculus problems or put a ball in a hoop?
No, but they would have a better sense on how not to go broke.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 07:05 PM
No, but they would have a better sense on how not to go broke.
It's not your problem if they go broke or not.
No, but they would have a better sense on how not to go broke.I've never taken a college course on how not to go broke.
Xiao Yao You
08-14-2012, 07:09 PM
They should have a chose. Forcing college upon someone that just want to play basketball is stupid and taking a scholarship away from a real student/athlete. NBA needs a minor league like baseball or at least hockey for kids to develop and quit paying them huge money based on potential alone. In baseball they don't make the big money til they prove themselves worthy of it. Give the money to proven vets.
AK47DR91
08-14-2012, 07:23 PM
Yes, they should.
Even the biggest bust of them all, Kwame Brown, is still a serviceable asset to teams 10 years after being drafted.
Don't blame the player, blame the dumb ass teams who draft them (if they turn into busts)
liquidrage
08-14-2012, 07:31 PM
That's not even possible. Once you declare for the draft and sign with an agent you cannot play NCAA ball again.
Bzzt wrong. It has nothing to do with NCAA rules in that exact regard. MLB and NHL already do this.
There is NO declaring for either of those drafts. If you're draft eligible (ie 18 by x date) you can be drafted.
In the NHL teams retain the rights of their players even if they don't sign them. In fact, most NHL teams don't even attempt to sign them. They keep them in college for a year or two more. Only the true elite come right to the NHL.
This would 100% work for the NBA. And in fact, make the 2nd and 3rd Rnd worthwhile. And you would be watching the NCAA knowing players rights already belong to certain teams.
BaņkShot
08-14-2012, 07:34 PM
No, college ball molds these players to perfection.
mattvNJ
08-14-2012, 07:34 PM
Bzzt wrong. It has nothing to do with NCAA rules in that exact regard. MLB and NHL already do this.
There is NO declaring for either of those drafts. If you're draft eligible (ie 18 by x date) you can be drafted.
In the NHL teams retain the rights of their players even if they don't sign them. In fact, most NHL teams don't even attempt to sign them. They keep them in college for a year or two more. Only the true elite come right to the NHL.
This would 100% work for the NBA. And in fact, make the 2nd and 3rd Rnd worthwhile. And you would be watching the NCAA knowing players rights already belong to certain teams.
love this idea
KyrieTheFuture
08-14-2012, 07:36 PM
I love the draft rights rule. It's not much different from a draft and stash overseas. In fact, it isn't different at all. I believe that players should have to stay more than one year.
Bzzt wrong. It has nothing to do with NCAA rules in that exact regard. MLB and NHL already do this.
There is NO declaring for either of those drafts. If you're draft eligible (ie 18 by x date) you can be drafted.
In the NHL teams retain the rights of their players even if they don't sign them. In fact, most NHL teams don't even attempt to sign them. They keep them in college for a year or two more. Only the true elite come right to the NHL.
This would 100% work for the NBA. And in fact, make the 2nd and 3rd Rnd worthwhile. And you would be watching the NCAA knowing players rights already belong to certain teams.
Interesting idea. One question though, what happens to guys who are drafted and want to turn pro but the team doesn't want to call them up. Is there not a danger of an ABA type upstart league snagging them?
franchiez
08-14-2012, 07:43 PM
JR Smith, proof enough?
liquidrage
08-14-2012, 07:49 PM
Interesting idea. One question though, what happens to guys who are drafted and want to turn pro but the team doesn't want to call them up. Is there not a danger of an ABA type upstart league snagging them?
Well, I'd care to wager if their NBA team doesn't want them this "upstart" league isn't going to get very good players. And any upstart league would compete with college more than the NBA, and college has better players.
There could be some guys that drop out into the D league, but that could happen now too and doesn't because there's little reason to have them in the D league.
If a player flunked out of school or just refused to go the NBA team could sign them to a D-league contract only while retaining their rights. If they chose to "call them up" they would then get an NBA contract. Kids aren't going to be dropping out of school against a teams wishes just to make 40k a year.
swi7ch
08-14-2012, 08:05 PM
No, it f*cks up the college game. FORCE these guys to play 2 years so we can watch 2 years of great NCAA games.
Is He Ill
08-14-2012, 08:36 PM
Just what the league needs, more overpayed children :facepalm
So an 18 year old is a child and a 19 year old is not? :confusedshrug:
JR Smith, proof enough?
What does this prove exactly?
franchiez
08-14-2012, 08:39 PM
So an 18 year old is a child and a 19 year old is not? :confusedshrug:
What does this prove exactly?
JR Smith is a complete moron and if he went to college he would probably be better off?
bleedinpurpleTwo
08-14-2012, 08:41 PM
yes, they should change the rules....and make it TWO years of college.
Is He Ill
08-14-2012, 08:41 PM
JR Smith is a complete moron and if he went to college he would probably be better off?
How so? Do you really believe that one year of college would do anything for him as far as intelligence is concerned?
franchiez
08-14-2012, 08:43 PM
How so? Do you really believe that one year of college would do anything for him as far as intelligence is concerned?
Not exactly but he did a lot of dumb shit in his rookie year. You would be surprised of how much you can change in 1 year of college.
Math2
08-14-2012, 08:43 PM
Why should an athlete be required to play sports for a school in order to make it his profession?
Colleges are schools. Playing sports for a college is supposed to be an extra-curricular activity.
The only reason players play basketball in college is because there isn't a better alternative. There are no other basketball leagues. Playing for a school gives them the best chance to get drafted.
Colleges have no right to players.
And if a team is willing to pick somebody up out of high school, then that is their business. If a team thinks they won't develop skills or will be immature flops, then they wouldn't pick them up in the first place.
They aren't required to play for a school, thanks for showing me something you pulled out of your ass.
The rule is one year out of high school, and I think it should be three.
And yes, there are NO other basketball leagues. :facepalm
And ANY high school player that is the least bit touted would be picked. Which waters down the league which shits on the fans. So yes, it IS the leagues business.
sacredcow
08-14-2012, 08:44 PM
Perhaps then a majority of these players would learn how to play as a UNIT. See, there can still be an "I" in team technically, they just need to know their god damn purpose and realize it isn't all just about them.
The college game has been diluted to the point of it becoming a snooze fest. Plus you know, god forbid these spoiled brats who get 100,000+ in scholarships actually learn something. Meanwhile kids who are smart and deserve to go to college get the shaft. It should be 4 years again in my opinion, but I'll concede with two only under the stipulation that they actually finish their degree.
Rule should be like the NFL. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Is He Ill
08-14-2012, 08:48 PM
Perhaps then a majority of these players would learn how to play as a UNIT. See, there can still be an "I" in team technically, they just need to know their god damn purpose and realize it isn't all just about them.
The college game has been diluted to the point of it becoming a snooze fest. Plus you know, god forbid these spoiled brats who get 100,000+ in scholarships actually learn something. Meanwhile kids who are smart and deserve to go to college get the shaft. It should be 4 years again in my opinion, but I'll concede with two only under the stipulation that they actually finish their degree.
What if you are not very intelligent and incapable of making it through college, yet you are a hell of a basketball player?
General
08-14-2012, 08:48 PM
Yes they should. You think Kyrie Irving got anything out of college? They're losing money too while playing with a bunch of inferior players. They're adults they should be able to do what they want.
franchiez
08-14-2012, 08:52 PM
Yes they should. You think Kyrie Irving got anything out of college? They're losing money too while playing with a bunch of inferior players. They're adults they should be able to do what they want.
Is ONE year too much to ask? 18-19?
General
08-14-2012, 08:57 PM
Is ONE year too much to ask? 18-19?
Forcing players to go to college just so they can leave their teams after one year is stupid. If you're good enough you should be able to play in the NBA with a high school diploma. Simple as that.
Yes they should. You think Kyrie Irving got anything out of college? They're losing money too while playing with a bunch of inferior players. They're adults they should be able to do what they want.
I bet if Kyrie Irving was asked what did he gain out of college he would mention something. Why pretend to know what he got out of it?
And yes if you ant to label them adults then they should be able to shoulder adult responsibilities, consequences and expectations. Unfortunately most cant. One of the funny things said was how Doug Collins and MJ hurt Kwame Brown as a rookie. They broke him, stunted his growth as a player. Not saying YOU said this (m,aybe you believed it?) but there are plenty of examples of young players entering the NBA and getting owned in every way imaginable and people defend them "He's just a kid", "They hurt his growth". This aint day care, this aint the place where you coddle and nurture kids. Kids coming ut early especially HS waive that right. You want to make an adult decision but cant handle the adult responsibility and consequences attatched with it.
"A kid can go work for IBM out of high school so should a bball player"
That kid wo works for IBM has to perform like his adult peers. There is no waiting game for him to develop. There is no passes for immaturity and bad decisions. Aint no one cutting u slack cuz u a youngin. For every Kyrie Irving there is a Kwame Brown.
Go to school, get a couple years under your belt and try to develop as a person and player. No gurantee, but a better chance of it happening for more kids than not. Its not to prevent Kobe Bryant, Lebron James of the world from reaching the NBA. Its to protect the Kwame Browns. That goes unnoticed.
Math2
08-14-2012, 08:59 PM
LeBron 20.9/5.9/5.5 and his team chose to play him 39.5 minutes a game. He got rookie of the year. But clearly he was useless.
Moses Malone 18.8/14.6 played 38.6 minutes a game.
But clearly you're right no player has been good straight out of high school. And I'd be curious as to how you know whether a player is mature, do you spend time with them? Finally if as you imply with Wall, many players are lost causes why on earth would you waste years in which they are near the peak of their athleticism trying to educate them?
LeBron has maturity issues during his first few years, but good point with Moses, I missed that. So out of every high school player, one (maybe two) great players out of the gun. Looks productive.
Not only would Wall benefit from first grade English to improve his talking, he might learn to control his body on the fastbreak.
franchiez
08-14-2012, 08:59 PM
Forcing players to go to college just so they can leave their teams after one year is stupid. If you're good enough you should be able to play in the NBA with a high school diploma. Simple as that.
College teams know they only get them for a year. And they try to nurture these players as much as they can before they send them off.
Math2
08-14-2012, 09:00 PM
They should have a chose. Forcing college upon someone that just want to play basketball is stupid and taking a scholarship away from a real student/athlete. NBA needs a minor league like baseball or at least hockey for kids to develop and quit paying them huge money based on potential alone. In baseball they don't make the big money til they prove themselves worthy of it. Give the money to proven vets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Development_League
Math2
08-14-2012, 09:02 PM
Forcing players to go to college just so they can leave their teams after one year is stupid. If you're good enough you should be able to play in the NBA with a high school diploma. Simple as that.
There has been not one person in this thread that has said forcing people to college.
Is He Ill
08-14-2012, 09:07 PM
I bet if Kyrie Irving was asked what did he gain out of college he would mention something. Why pretend to know what he got out of it?
And yes if you ant to label them adults then they should be able to shoulder adult responsibilities, consequences and expectations. Unfortunately most cant. One of the funny things said was how Doug Collins and MJ hurt Kwame Brown as a rookie. They broke him, stunted his growth as a player. Not saying YOU said this (m,aybe you believed it?) but there are plenty of examples of young players entering the NBA and getting owned in every way imaginable and people defend them "He's just a kid", "They hurt his growth". This aint day care, this aint the place where you coddle and nurture kids. Kids coming ut early especially HS waive that right. You want to make an adult decision but cant handle the adult responsibility and consequences attatched with it.
"A kid can go work for IBM out of high school so should a bball player"
That kid wo works for IBM has to perform like his adult peers. There is no waiting game for him to develop. There is no passes for immaturity and bad decisions. Aint no one cutting u slack cuz u a youngin. For every Kyrie Irving there is a Kwame Brown.
Go to school, get a couple years under your belt and try to develop as a person and player. No gurantee, but a better chance of it happening for more kids than not. Its not to prevent Kobe Bryant, Lebron James of the world from reaching the NBA. Its to protect the Kwame Browns. That goes unnoticed.
High School players aren't the only NBA busts. I agree, getting a couple of years under your belt would be beneficial. That being said, why not give players the option instead of forcing them to wait one year? Look at the NFL, there are plenty of immature idiots in that league that make poor decisions, and yet they are all forced to spend three years in college.
sacredcow
08-14-2012, 09:12 PM
What if you are not very intelligent and incapable of making it through college, yet you are a hell of a basketball player?
Get Samuel L. Jackson to chain the door in the gym shut! :lol
That does create an interesting dilemma that I had looked over. I guess if teams are willing to buy out the remainder of their scholarship (pending they can prove they're Helen Keller on the court) then maybe that works?
General
08-14-2012, 09:15 PM
High School players aren't the only NBA busts. I agree, getting a couple of years under your belt would be beneficial. That being said, why not give players the option instead of forcing them to wait one year? Look at the NFL, there are plenty of immature idiots in that league that make poor decisions, and yet they are all forced to spend three years in college.
This. I just want the player to have the option.
General
08-14-2012, 09:21 PM
There have been 42 high school draftees in the NBA Draft. Three draftees were selected first overall; Kwame Brown in 2001 NBA Draft, LeBron James in 2003 and Dwight Howard in 2004 NBA Draft. Two draftees went on to win the Rookie of the Year Award in their first season; LeBron James and 2002 draftee Amar'e Stoudemire.[23] Three draftees went on to win the Most Valuable Player Award; Kevin Garnett in 2004, Kobe Bryant in 2008 and LeBron James in 2009, 2010 and 2012.[24] Eight draftees have been selected to the All-Star Game while seven draftees have been selected to the All-NBA Team.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees
20% shot of drafting an All-Star when you draft out of HS, pretty good to me:applause:
Is He Ill
08-14-2012, 09:23 PM
This. I just want the player to have the option.
Precisely. The players that have the will to attend college get the most out of the experience because they want to be there. The one and doners will get very little out of it because they already believe that they are ready for the NBA.
Mgamer20o0
08-14-2012, 09:39 PM
i think it would be great if they could draft and let them play in the d league college or overseas. if the team thinks they are ready let them in.
a little off topic but....
i think the only thing they should be mandating is some basic classes in money management and retirement. maybe less of these players who make millions then end up broke after some stupid things. maybe a couple nba paid cpa's who cant take any money from the players but able to get some basic guidance from someone who doesnt have something to gain.
RazorBaLade
08-14-2012, 09:59 PM
the dleague should have out of HS players...... right now its a joke none of the dleaguers make the nba
SevereUpInHere
08-14-2012, 10:05 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees
20% shot of drafting an All-Star when you draft out of HS, pretty good to me:applause:
Yeah I was about to post this list. I'd say about 50% of them haven't really worked out but damn, the other half are all solid starters/allstars/superstars. I'd say it's a great strike rate of success even compared to lottery picks.
I say let teams draft them.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 10:19 PM
Imagine if some kid with an amazing voice was told "you can't make an album until you take singing lessons".
It's retarded. If you are good enough, and people will pay money to see you perform, then there shouldn't be rules against making money for you and your family (as long as it's within the law). It's against the American spirit.
fatboy11
08-14-2012, 10:23 PM
Yeah I was about to post this list. I'd say about 50% of them haven't really worked out but damn, the other half are all solid starters/allstars/superstars. I'd say it's a great strike rate of success even compared to lottery picks.
I say let teams draft them.
What's your definition of "haven't really worked out"?
I see 42 names on the list (could be off by a player or two) and 29 that are either in the NBA right now or were in the NBA as of this past season. That's not counting Darryl Dawkins and Darius Miles, who both had productive careers for at least 6 seasons. So, we're talking 31 out of 42 players had productive careers, and most players have had long NBA careers. Seems to be like about 74% of the high school players drafted into the NBA "worked out". Now, this all depends on what you mean by "haven't really worked out" because I measure "worked out" by continuing to make NBA rosters for more than just a couple of seasons.
Even guys like Diop and Outlaw are still in the NBA. I won't pretend that all of these guys lived up their billing, but that isn't argument enough to keep them out of the NBA. I say if you can solidify yourself as an NBA player that gets guaranteed contracts, I'd say you worked out.
blacknapalm
08-14-2012, 10:31 PM
while i like giving the option to the player, i think it's good for the league overall. it keeps him from being slightly less watered down and gives teams another year to scout. ya, it doesn't filter out all the busts but how many busts have we seen come out of HS? way too many. we don't need bottom barrell teams to be making the same mistakes over and over again, drafting on potential from an immature HS'er.
there's no solution that covers all the problems. does it suck for the the HS'er that thinks he's ready, is motivated and mature like kobe or KG? yes, but those guys are rare breeds. where's the statistics of first year college players getting a significant injury and really hurting their stock? i think the more likely scenario are guys like PJIII and sullinger who choose to go back to school....then get their stock hurt
fatboy11
08-14-2012, 10:32 PM
As for the actual debate, I've long been a proponent of the old 18 year old/HS graduating class age limit. However, I think there could be a comprise to be struck.
I read a small snippet the other day that said more American players would stay here and play in the D-League rather than go overseas if they could get paid at least 75k a year. I think if the NBA can get them to that point, they could pull out a higher age limit. That leaves a viable option for American players to play professionally if they really need the money for their family or college just isn't their thing and they can't suck it up for a couple of years. Then, they could raise the age limit to 20 years old (essentially two years of college basketball). This helps both the NCAA and the NBA. Younger players come into the league more developed and mature (theoretically) and the NCAA can have a better product (which actually does help the NBA by creating more interest in the game of basketball and possibly having a carryover effect since fans can develop more of a familiarity with college players).
I don't like the current age limit. I don't like making players go for 3 years. I don't even like essentially making kids to college. Going overseas is just not a good option for American kids out of HS. D-League is more helpful but the pay is pathetic and players only go there out of necessity. I actually am okay with kids going straight to the NBA if they're good enough. The problem there became GMs and scouts getting a hard-on for kids that really did need to go to college for a couple of years. But even then, the proof is there. Most HS kids had good careers in the NBA.
fatboy11
08-14-2012, 10:36 PM
while i like giving the option to the player, i think it's good for the league overall. it keeps him from being slightly less watered down and gives teams another year to scout. ya, it doesn't filter out all the busts but how many busts have we seen come out of HS? way too many. we don't need bottom barrell teams to be making the same mistakes over and over again, drafting on potential from an immature HS'er.
there's no solution that covers all the problems. does it suck for the the HS'er that thinks he's ready, is motivated and mature like kobe or KG? yes, but those guys are rare breeds
Again, the list has been provided and there are few players that truly didn't pan out. I think there's an unfair standard for the HS kids. It's almost as if they get drafted in the lottery or mid first round and aren't All-Stars, they're a bust. Even if they end up be productive players with long careers. Big difference between disappointment and bust, IMO. As mentioned, even Kwame Brown is still in the NBA over 10 years later and was going to be the starter for Philly before acquiring Bynum. :confusedshrug:
74% (at least) of the players that came out of HS were productive NBA players.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 10:36 PM
while i like giving the option to the player, i think it's good for the league overall. it keeps him from being slightly less watered down and gives teams another year to scout. ya, it doesn't filter out all the busts but how many busts have we seen come out of HS? way too many. we don't need bottom barrell teams to be making the same mistakes over and over again, drafting on potential from an immature HS'er.
there's no solution that covers all the problems. does it suck for the the HS'er that thinks he's ready, is motivated and mature like kobe or KG? yes, but those guys are rare breeds. where's the statistics of first year college players getting a significant injury and really hurting their stock? i think the more likely scenario are guys like PJIII and sullinger who choose to go back to school....then get their stock hurt
So basically you are trying to cover for the billionaire owner's pocket, and make sure they don't have to pay for a year or two of development.
There are just as many busts that play 3 or more years of college as there are players who go straight to the pros. In fact, there are probably more.
Who's a bigger bust, Michael Olowokandi or Kwame Brown?
blacknapalm
08-14-2012, 10:40 PM
So basically you are trying to cover for the billionaire owner's pocket, and make sure they don't have to pay for a year or two of development.
There are just as many busts that play 3 or more years of college as there are players who go straight to the pros. In fact, there are probably more.
Who's a bigger bust, Michael Olowokandi or Kwame Brown?
kandi is obviously a bigger bust. i'm not saying you won't find exceptions. i'm just saying owners need safeguards. yes, they're dumb and it sort of punishes the players but i see why it's there. that's why there's other questionable safeguards in place...owners will whiff and make mistakes that set back their franchises for years. you can't be 100% pro player and have owners jump on board.
at the same time, i always thought the player should have options. i actually like fatboy's idea. it's more of a compromise of both sides, especially because of how lame the one and done rule in college is. why get invested in your program if most of the big players will be leaving after one year? rinse, repeat. just as you get to know a player, he's gone off to the NBA.
only problem with d-league is that they might not get the one-on-one coaching they need and they also won't be able to get their brand out there. college players get exposed much more, even if it is for that one year. when a d-league player joins the nba, not a lot is usually known about him and he certainly doesn't have the name recognition of even a moderately popular college player. it might be more beneficial just to go the college route, if you had to choose one of the two. it could increase your long-term marketability.
still, i like that it could be an option...
I bet if Kyrie Irving was asked what did he gain out of college he would mention something. Why pretend to know what he got out of it?
And yes if you ant to label them adults then they should be able to shoulder adult responsibilities, consequences and expectations. Unfortunately most cant. One of the funny things said was how Doug Collins and MJ hurt Kwame Brown as a rookie. They broke him, stunted his growth as a player. Not saying YOU said this (m,aybe you believed it?) but there are plenty of examples of young players entering the NBA and getting owned in every way imaginable and people defend them "He's just a kid", "They hurt his growth". This aint day care, this aint the place where you coddle and nurture kids. Kids coming ut early especially HS waive that right. You want to make an adult decision but cant handle the adult responsibility and consequences attatched with it.
"A kid can go work for IBM out of high school so should a bball player"
That kid wo works for IBM has to perform like his adult peers. There is no waiting game for him to develop. There is no passes for immaturity and bad decisions. Aint no one cutting u slack cuz u a youngin. For every Kyrie Irving there is a Kwame Brown.
Go to school, get a couple years under your belt and try to develop as a person and player. No gurantee, but a better chance of it happening for more kids than not. Its not to prevent Kobe Bryant, Lebron James of the world from reaching the NBA. Its to protect the Kwame Browns. That goes unnoticed.It should be a player's choice to go to college. Let the kid and his family decide what's best for him... not David Stern.
i think it would be great if they could draft and let them play in the d league college or overseas. if the team thinks they are ready let them in.
a little off topic but....
i think the only thing they should be mandating is some basic classes in money management and retirement. maybe less of these players who make millions then end up broke after some stupid things. maybe a couple nba paid cpa's who cant take any money from the players but able to get some basic guidance from someone who doesnt have something to gain.I'm sure they already have these type of things for NBA Rookies... some kind of rookie summit or something.
ihoopallday
08-14-2012, 10:55 PM
Everyone thinks going to college for 1 year makes these athletes more mature. I go to KU and I guarantee that first year of college is full of partyin. Yes, this includes athletes too. Btw, what if you're a huge prospect coming out of high school, and you blow your knee first game of NCAA? Bye bye to your pro contract.
blacknapalm
08-14-2012, 10:56 PM
Everyone thinks going to college for 1 year makes these athletes more mature. I go to KU and I guarantee that first year of college is full of partyin. Yes, this includes athletes too. Btw, what if you're a huge prospect coming out of high school, and you blow your knee first game of NCAA? Bye bye to your pro contract.
this is another thing that was undoubtedly brought up and the strongest argument in favor of...we'll just call it, 'choice' :oldlol:
Everyone thinks going to college for 1 year makes these athletes more mature. I go to KU and I guarantee that first year of college is full of partyin. Yes, this includes athletes too. Btw, what if you're a huge prospect coming out of high school, and you blow your knee first game of NCAA? Bye bye to your pro contract.Exactly. I don't know why people think maturity comes from going to college for a year or two.
The first 2 years of college are easy. It's basically like a rehash of high school classes... that is what the first two years are. Just basic studies like in high school.
And those years are filled with partying and going crazy with the new-found freedom.
Those who graduate after 4 years are mature, not because of college itself, but because they were already mature. You HAVE to be pretty mature to be dedicated enough to your major to pass the next two years.
Graduating from college takes maturity. Maturity doesn't come from graduating college.
And it especially doesn't come from just attending college for a couple of years.
28renyoy
08-14-2012, 11:04 PM
Sure but they should be paid about 200k a year like the baseball players are
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 11:09 PM
Sure but they should be paid about 200k a year like the baseball players are
Like Bryce Harper?
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38733012/ns/sports-baseball/
No. 1 overall draft choice Harper and the Nationals agreed to a $9.9 million, five-year contract in the seconds before the deadline of midnight EDT Monday night - a year after coming to terms with 2009 top selection Strasburg on a record deal with a little more than a minute to go.
Xiao Yao You
08-14-2012, 11:33 PM
That's still less than a top pick in the NBA. Overall they get paid a lot less especially with the new cap on picks starting this year.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 11:42 PM
That's still less than a top pick in the NBA. Overall they get paid a lot less especially with the new cap on picks starting this year.
Yea but Bryce Harper won't have a cap on his future earnings. There is speculation that he will sign a $400 million contract when he becomes a free agent. I am sure the players would agree to lower earnings for the early years, if the NBA got rid of the socialist-type caps that they have.
Xiao Yao You
08-14-2012, 11:44 PM
That's what I would have been going after in negotiations. If anybody is going to lose money it should be unproven guys not vets.
Sarcastic
08-14-2012, 11:50 PM
That's what I would have been going after in negotiations. If anybody is going to lose money it should be unproven guys not vets.
David Stern killed that in the 1999 lockout.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 12:12 AM
It should be like baseball, out of highschool or 3 years in college. Give me a legitimate problem with that system. If you can't get through college the D-League will accept you or play overseas. It's that simple.
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 12:20 AM
It should be like baseball, out of highschool or 3 years in college. Give me a legitimate problem with that system. If you can't get through college the D-League will accept you or play overseas. It's that simple.
There shouldn't be any rules. It goes against capitalism and the free market to have rules restricting a person from earning money, once they are of legal age.
People always say they hate socialism, except when it comes to sports. Then they want every rule in the book to level the playing field.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 12:28 AM
There shouldn't be any rules. It goes against capitalism and the free market to have rules restricting a person from earning money, once they are of legal age.
People always say they hate socialism, except when it comes to sports. Then they want every rule in the book to level the playing field.
It isn't a rule saying they can't make money. Come to the D-League. Just because you aren't being given the equivalent of an executive level position doesn't mean it's unfair. Europe and heavy left wingers love socialism what are you talking about.
It isn't a rule saying they can't make money. Come to the D-League. Just because you aren't being given the equivalent of an executive level position doesn't mean it's unfair. Europe and heavy left wingers love socialism what are you talking about.He isn't being allowed to make the money somebody is willing to pay him.
If an NBA team wants to pay him a bunch of money to play for their team, and the player wants to play for that team, he isn't able to because of some rule.
But it's funny that you should mention Europe, because in Europe, Ricky Rubio was playing professional basketball at age 14.
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 12:42 AM
It isn't a rule saying they can't make money. Come to the D-League. Just because you aren't being given the equivalent of an executive level position doesn't mean it's unfair. Europe and heavy left wingers love socialism what are you talking about.
It's a rule that restricts your money.
If you are the best Sprocket maker in the world at 18, there shouldn't be a rule that forces you to make Cogs for 3 years, before you can make Sprockets.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 12:53 AM
It's a rule that restricts your money.
If you are the best Sprocket maker in the world at 18, there shouldn't be a rule that forces you to make Cogs for 3 years, before you can make Sprockets.
It doesn't force you to do you not see the part where you can come straight out of highschool OR be in college?
It doesn't force you to do you not see the part where you can come straight out of highschool OR be in college?What is the point of that?
To help the college sports?
What obligation does the NBA have to college sports?
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:01 AM
What is the point of that?
To help the college sports?
What obligation does the NBA have to college sports?
The point is to be able to be able to better evaluate players. The NFL and MLB have 3 years for a reason. College is an excellent place to develop basketball players due to the huge emphasis on TEAM play and the NCAA tourney is an amazing cajones builder.
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 01:02 AM
It doesn't force you to do you not see the part where you can come straight out of highschool OR be in college?
But what if you can be the best Sprocket maker at 19. Why should you have to spend 2 more years making Cogs?
The point is to be able to be able to better evaluate players. The NFL and MLB have 3 years for a reason. College is an excellent place to develop basketball players due to the huge emphasis on TEAM play and the NCAA tourney is an amazing cajones builder.That makes no sense. Better evaluate players?
If an NBA team wants to pay a player a lot of money, then they have evaluated them enough for their liking.
But anyway, you said the players should have a choice between coming out of high school or staying in college for 3 years.
So how does coming out of high school develop basketball players or help teams to "evaluate players"?
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:06 AM
But what if you can be the best Sprocket maker at 19. Why should you have to spend 2 more years making Cogs?
If I am not mistaken you can then go to the D-League after a year, or Europe as always where you can make a killing, and then get drafted. Players go to college because it has the best training and the most exposure. If they really needed to make money, they would do the aforementioned options. Brandon Jennings didn't go to college and he was the #1 recruit in the nation.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:09 AM
That makes no sense. Better evaluate players?
If an NBA team wants to pay a player a lot of money, then they have evaluated them enough for their liking.
But anyway, you said the players should have a choice between coming out of high school or staying in college for 3 years.
So how does coming out of high school develop basketball players or help teams to "evaluate players"?
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. It's not that the player has a choice per say it's that the team has an option of drafting whomever they like, but if they don't choose you then you have to go get better. You're right that a player would be evaluated enough if he was good enough to get drafted out of highschool and there are 1-2 players a year who probably are. Besides that though college is a better place for most of the people to develop than 12 minutes a game in the NBA.
If I am not mistaken you can then go to the D-League after a year, or Europe as always where you can make a killing, and then get drafted. Players go to college because it has the best training and the most exposure. If they really needed to make money, they would do the aforementioned options. Brandon Jennings didn't go to college and he was the #1 recruit in the nation.What's the point?
Why force a player to play in the D-League or Europe for less money when an NBA team is ready and willing to offer him a contract?
What good is that doing for him or the team that wants to sign him?
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:11 AM
What's the point?
Why force a player to play in the D-League or Europe for less money when an NBA team is ready and willing to offer him a contract?
What good is that doing for him or the team that wants to sign him?
See above, they can get him if he's good enough in highschool. Very few players make a huge jump like Anthony Davis did. Also, a lot of these players wouldn't be making much less in Europe.
I don't think I'm explaining myself very well. It's not that the player has a choice per say it's that the team has an option of drafting whomever they like, but if they don't choose you then you have to go get better. You're right that a player would be evaluated enough if he was good enough to get drafted out of highschool and there are 1-2 players a year who probably are. Besides that though college is a better place for most of the people to develop than 12 minutes a game in the NBA.That is up for the team and the player to decide.
If a team wants to sign him, then that team wants to sign him. They can send him to the D-league after they sign him if they want him to play more.
Who knows? It doesn't matter how the team wants to use him and develop him.
The player and his parents can decide if he wants to develop in college or the NBA. He doesn't need some nanny forcing him to do one or the other.
See above, they can get him if he's good enough in highschool. Very few players make a huge jump like Anthony Davis did. Also, a lot of these players wouldn't be making much less in Europe.My point is why force him to play in Europe when he can play in the NBA?
What is the point of that? It is hurting the NBA teams who want to sign him, and it isn't what the player wants, either.
So why do it?
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 01:15 AM
See above, they can get him if he's good enough in highschool. Very few players make a huge jump like Anthony Davis did. Also, a lot of these players wouldn't be making much less in Europe.
And what if he is ready at 19, but is forced to the D-League at 20 because of your Draconian rules, then blows out his knee.
Too bad for him, right? Try harder next time.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:18 AM
That is up for the team and the player to decide.
If a team wants to sign him, then that team wants to sign him. They can send him to the D-league after they sign him if they want him to play more.
Who knows? It doesn't matter how the team wants to use him and develop him.
The player and his parents can decide if he wants to develop in college or the NBA. He doesn't need some nanny forcing him to do one or the other.
Minny should have done that with Derrick Williams. There's a stigma that D-League is sub NBA talent so being relegated there would not be as well received as an MLB player to the minors. I don't understand why you keep saying force. No one is forcing them. If a player wants to develop in the NBA they can. They'll be a second (or perhaps they could add a third round) round pick and won't make very much money out of highschool. I personally believe college athletes should be able to receive money (from Nike for example) so perhaps that skews my opinion.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:21 AM
And what if he is ready at 19, but is forced to the D-League at 20 because of your Draconian rules, then blows out his knee.
Too bad for him, right? Try harder next time.
Well if you blow out your knee in the D-League you'll probably blow it out in the NBA. I'm trying to have an actual conversation about this here I don't appreciate the try harder next time like I'm trolling here.
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 01:22 AM
The crazy thing is we are talking about rules that affect like .00001% of the world's population, in order to guard .000001% of the world's population from making 1 mistake.
:coleman:
Minny should have done that with Derrick Williams. There's a stigma that D-League is sub NBA talent so being relegated there would not be as well received as an MLB player to the minors. I don't understand why you keep saying force. No one is forcing them. If a player wants to develop in the NBA they can. They'll be a second (or perhaps they could add a third round) round pick and won't make very much money out of highschool. I personally believe college athletes should be able to receive money (from Nike for example) so perhaps that skews my opinion.I'm saying "force" because I'm assuming the rules stipulate that the player must play in college for 3 years.
He is being forced out of signing an NBA contract during that time.
What if a player wasn't good enough to get drafted out of high school, but he plays amazing in college after 1 year and an NBA team wants to sign him, and he wants to sign with them, too?
Then what?
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 01:27 AM
Well if you blow out your knee in the D-League you'll probably blow it out in the NBA. I'm trying to have an actual conversation about this here I don't appreciate the try harder next time like I'm trolling here.
I didn't mean the "try harder next time" to you. I meant it towards the guy that hypothetically blew out his knee.
See the thing is, you need to be able to read between the lines when Stern and the NBA comes out with their statements like "we want players to stay in school for 2 years" or "we want the Olympics to be 23 and under".
What "we want players to stay in school for 2 years" really means is:
We don't want to pay for the 2 years of development, from 18-20. We are fine paying from 21+, since the average NBA player starts his prime at 22, and that's the age in which we can maximize profits on him.
What "we want the Olympics to be 23 and under" really means is:
We don't want to risk our $100 million investments in a tournament that we don't make money on, but we are willing to risk out $10 million investments on said tournament.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:28 AM
I'm saying "force" because I'm assuming the rules stipulate that the player must play in college for 3 years.
He is being forced out of signing an NBA contract during that time.
What if a player wasn't good enough to get drafted out of high school, but he plays amazing in college after 1 year and an NBA team wants to sign him, and he wants to sign with them, too?
Then what?
Well I also want rookies to be able to negotiate starting contracts and players in that position would have a high enough signing bonus/starting salary to make up for lost wages. Idk maybe something like draft rights would work but you could only place rights on someone you would give a high level contract to. However, like I said, Anthony Davis is an anomaly and most people don't think he'll make a huge impact this year anyway due to how raw he is. This won't happen idk why we're talking about the players will never ever agree to it and I'm pretty sure it has to be negotiated in the CBA.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:31 AM
I didn't mean the "try harder next time" to you. I meant it towards the guy that hypothetically blew out his knee.
See the thing is, you need to be able to read between the lines when Stern and the NBA comes out with their statements like "we want players to stay in school for 2 years" or "we want the Olympics to be 23 and under".
What "we want players to stay in school for 2 years" really means is:
We don't want to pay for the 2 years of development, from 18-20. We are fine paying from 21+, since the average NBA player starts his prime at 22, and that's the age in which we can maximize profits on him.
What "we want the Olympics to be 23 and under" really means is:
We don't want to risk our $100 million investments in a tournament that we don't make money on, but we are willing to risk out $10 million investments on said tournament.
Ah my apologies for the misunderstanding. And you're absolutely 100% correct the NFL has the 3 year rule because they don't want to pay to develop their players. Baseball is a little different because of their amazing minor league. Also the NBA doesn't make money on it that's why they want them out but want the international tourney. They get a slice of the pie. I personally just think college is an incredibly valuable experience that athletes should be a part of. For instance I highly doubt MJ regrets going to college but I could be wrong.
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 01:32 AM
NFL has the 3 year rule due to the insane violence of the sport. No one wants to see an 18 year old get killed by a grown man on the gridiron. It would be bad for TV.
blacknapalm
08-15-2012, 01:34 AM
NFL has the 3 year rule due to the insane violence of the sport. No one wants to see an 18 year old get killed by a grown man on the gridiron. It would be bad for TV.
a 21 year old looks better dead? desean jackson hasn't exactly bulked up from his 18 year old college days
NFL has the 3 year rule due to the insane violence of the sport. No one wants to see an 18 year old get killed by a grown man on the gridiron. It would be bad for TV.I don't know about that...
If a team thinks a teenager is ready for the big time, then he's ready for the big time.
I'm a fan of mixed martial arts, and I've seen several fights at the highest level, in the UFC, with a teenager facing off against a grown man. If they're ready, they're ready.
KyrieTheFuture
08-15-2012, 01:43 AM
Yea it's not like Chris Johnson or most of these WR's are bulked up from Highschool. The whole bulking up thing pertains more to the defensive side but they don't need to worry as much about protection
Sarcastic
08-15-2012, 01:44 AM
a 21 year old looks better dead? desean jackson hasn't exactly bulked up from his 18 year old college days
"Getting killed" was a figure of speech. They are trying to protect under 21 year olds from injury.
Math2
08-15-2012, 07:22 AM
It should be a player's choice to go to college. Let the kid and his family decide what's best for him... not David Stern.
David Stern isn't saying anything about that, he's trying to put in a minimum age requirement, which has nothing to do with college as you insist.
Math2
08-15-2012, 07:23 AM
Exactly. I don't know why people think maturity comes from going to college for a year or two.
The first 2 years of college are easy. It's basically like a rehash of high school classes... that is what the first two years are. Just basic studies like in high school.
And those years are filled with partying and going crazy with the new-found freedom.
Those who graduate after 4 years are mature, not because of college itself, but because they were already mature. You HAVE to be pretty mature to be dedicated enough to your major to pass the next two years.
Graduating from college takes maturity. Maturity doesn't come from graduating college.
And it especially doesn't come from just attending college for a couple of years.
I'm sure the college classes basketball players take are hard. :roll: Dedication shows when you can weave baskets for 4 years.
blacknapalm
08-15-2012, 07:34 AM
I'm sure the college classes basketball players take are hard. :roll: Dedication shows when you can weave baskets for 4 years.
maybe one year players write down undeclared or crappy majors, but there's plenty of four year college players that graduate with legit degrees. isn't leinart the one who graduated with ballet or basket weaving? and he finished in five years?
bmd agreed with the majority that said the first two years can be generally bullshitted so why go further and act like it's ludicrous. what he said is true...the final two years can weed out a lot of folks that are not dedicated, athlete or otherwise. you can't totally sleep in your first two years unless you're just smart and a good test taker. otherwise, you'll have to really buckle down and leave your reckless party days behind you. time management is really one of the early lessons of college.
those first two years you're basically doing general education. the final two years are adjusted for your major and obviously get more difficult...even if it's calisthenics or sports nutrition. if you do an intensive major, you'll do more intensive general education in math and science so it's less of a passing period.
yes, a lot of the time, athlete education is overstated and they get passes but there's still guys that can fall back on a degree.
that said, i do like athletes having options. they can always come back to finish up a degree the same way other people are.
blacknapalm
08-15-2012, 07:41 AM
"Getting killed" was a figure of speech. They are trying to protect under 21 year olds from injury.
meh, i think they're trying to protect players in general. if anything, the older players are suffering the worst injuries. the problem is...if they make a cutoff for players, it would be ludicrous and laughed at. it's a violent sport by nature and there's only so much you can do.
it's all politics. if football was really worried about safety, they'd wear huge, silly looking, bulky padded helmets like mark kelso:
http://buffalosabresnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Mark-Kelso-great-gazoo.jpeg
these types of helmets have been proven to be more safe than the current helmets in regard to concussions. if the nfl was so concerned about concussions, why not use the kelso helmet? money, money and more money. they cost more, they're not marketable and they don't look as 'cool'. i'm sure there's some players that would be against it but that's a small minority from what i understand. those that do are worried about the marketability aspect.
the real reason nfl has the 3 year rule....strength and conditioning is more important in that sport. you get slammed as an o-lineman and tackled or make hits everywhere else. nfl also has a deeper draft to make up for the pool of talent. if everybody could declare, they'd have a 3 round stacked draft...plenty of busts, but also plenty of booms.
btw, what's the latest on the dwight rumors? still looking like he's holding out for NJ and deron or what?
Xiao Yao You
08-15-2012, 08:08 AM
Yea it's not like Chris Johnson or most of these WR's are bulked up from Highschool. The whole bulking up thing pertains more to the defensive side but they don't need to worry as much about protection
I saw the Bears in O'Hare airport the summer after they won the title and even the little guys were bulked up. Pretty much have to to take the pounding I'd imagine.
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