5 Greatest players of all time from each positions

[1987_Lakers]

What do you think?

C
1. Kareem
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

PF
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Barkley
4. Malone
5. Dirk (Don't know much about Bob Pettit)

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Elgin Baylor
5. Rick Barry

SG
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler

PG
1. Magic Johnson
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Walt Frazier
5. Steve Nash

HM: Moses Malone, Bob Pettit, John Havlicek, George Gervin, & John Stockton.

I know alot of people are going to hate on me for putting Nash over Stockton, but I believe most will consider him above Stockton by the time he retires, especially if he ends up with a ring next year. Havlicek has a case over Barry, but Havlicek was never better than Barry at the prime of their careers.

[unbreakable]

Dirk is above Barkley and Malone.. his performance in the 2011 Playoffs and Finals was Jordanesque.

Also Pippen is 3rd behind Lebron and Bird.... 6 rings as a Co-leader

[RoundMoundOfReb]

Seems like you nailed it.

[midatlantic09]

As an individual player, Lebron is better than Bird. He's better than Bird in almost every statistical category.

[StateOfMind12]

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Frazier
4. Nash
5. Isiah

SG
1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler

SF
1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Erving
4. Baylor
5. Pippen

PF
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Malone
4. Dirk
5. Barkley

C
1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem


PF is probably the most controversial between Malone, Dirk, Garnett, and Barkley.

[jongib369]

Nash was never the defender stockton was, and personally Id even take Kidd over nash but...thats just my opinion

[jongib369]

C
1. Wilt (Overall Impact, versatility and with the right coach you can mold him to do w/e you want, EXTREME longevity potential)
2. Russell GOAT Defense and GOAT team player
3. Kareem
==== Poetry
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq- Bigmac

PF
1. Duncan- FUNDAMENTALS :D
2. Barkley- Imagine if he was taller?
3. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Elvin Hayes

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin baylor- Probably a reason why the lakers won a championship when he left

SG
1. Michael Jordan- Don't piss him off

2. Jerry West https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rjREaql2U



3. Kobe Bryant- Toss up between West and Kobe IMO.. I respect the hell out of both of them and feel like Im slighting each of them putting one over the other :confusedshrug:
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler

PG
1. Magic Johnson Toss up between Magic and oscar for me
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Walt Frazier
5. Jason kidd



I feel like I'm forgetting a few people...

[Odinn]

C: 1. Kareem 2. Russell 3. Wilt 4. Shaq 5. Hakeem/Moses
PF: 1. Duncan 2. Barkley 3. Malone 4. Dirk 5. Garnett
SF: 1. Bird 2. LeBron 3. Erving 4. Baylor 5. Nique/English
SG: 1. Jordan 2. Kobe 3. West 4. Wade 5. Drexler
PG: 1. Magic 2. BigO 3. Zeke 4. Stockton 5. Frazier/Kidd

[MiamiThrice]

Centers: Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Moses Malone
Power Forwards: Tim Duncan, Karl Malone, Dirk, Barkley, KG
Small forwards: Bird, LeBron, Dr. J, Pippen, Rick Barry
Shooting Guards: Jordan, Kobe, Wade, West, Havlicek
Point Guards: Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Ishiah, Nash

I thought point guard was the toughest to rank and I'm sure my rankings would look different every time I did it. All the other ones are as correct as it gets.

[franchiez]

Its tough to compare past and present.

[Pushxx]

Some ok lists but Hondo is being massively underrated here.

[guy]

Changes all the time but here goes:

C
1. Russell
2. Kareem
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

PF
1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Barkley
4. Dirk
5. Malone

SF
1. Bird
2. Dr. J
3. Lebron
4. Baylor
5. Havlicek

SG
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Drexler
5. Wade

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Stockton
5. Kidd

BTW, I thought Wade was a lock to be 3rd eventually. Doesn't seem that way anymore.

[Freedom Kid7]

Center
1. KAJ
2. Russell
3. Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
Power Forward
1. Tim Duncan
2. Kevin Garnett
3. Dirk
4. Barkley
5. Bob Pettit
Small Forward
1. Larry Bird
2. Julius Erving
3. LeBron
4. Hondo
5. Barry
Shooting Guard
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4. Clyde Drexler
5. Dwyane Wade
Point Guard
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Stockton/Kidd
5. Kidd/Stockton

[G.O.A.T]

Center is the easiest
-Russ, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq and Mikan

Power Forward maybe the toughest
-Duncan, Pettit, KG, Malone, Chuck

Small Forward has the newest member
-Bird, Doc, Baylor, LeBron, Hondo

Shooting Guard has the least depth
-Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler

Point Guard is the one I'll get the most grief for
-Magic, Oscar, Isiah, Cousy, Clyde

[FreezingTsmoove]

Stockton > Nash. Stock did the same things Nash did plus better D

[jbryan1984]

Its just too hard to do those kind of things because so many players in the 50's and 60's would be the equivalent of a JJ Barea/Luke Ridnour/Luke Walton/Linas Kleiza/Aaron Gray team today.

[chips93]

Some ok lists but Hondo is being massively underrated here.

this

hes right there in all-time SF after bron and bird, he could easily be 3rd

[FKAri]

Stockton > Nash. Stock did the same things Nash did plus better D

Every guard's D from that era is overrated just like every guard's O from this era is overrated. That being said Stockton > Nash imho.

[IGotACoolStory]

You could make a solid argument for Cousy over Stockton and Nash. I wouldn't do it, but I'm surprised he's only on one list.

[Bigsmoke]

C: 1. Kareem 2. Russell 3. Wilt 4. Shaq 5. Hakeem/Moses
PF: 1. Duncan 2. Barkley 3. Malone 4. Dirk 5. Garnett
SF: 1. Bird 2. LeBron 3. Erving 4. Baylor 5. Nique/English
SG: 1. Jordan 2. Kobe 3. West 4. Wade 5. Drexler
PG: 1. Magic 2. BigO 3. Zeke 4. Stockton 5. Frazier/Kidd

can't argue with that.

Hakeem is better than Moses Malone so its just "Hakeem"

[oolalaa]

Point Guard
1. Magic Johnson

2. Oscar Robertson

3. Isiah Thomas
4. Walt Frazier

5. Steve Nash
6. Jason Kidd
7. John Stockton

8. Bob Cousy
9. Gary Payton
10. Chris Paul....Projected for top 5 by the end of his career. Could go as high as #3.

11. Dennis Johnson
12. Kevin Johnson
13. Gus Williams
14. Tiny Archibald

15. Jo Jo White


Shooting Guard
1. Michael Jordan

2. Jerry West
3. Kobe Bryant

4. Dwyane Wade

5. Clyde Drexler
6. Sam Jones
7. George Gervin
8. Allen Iverson

9. Hal Greer
10. Reggie Miller
11. Ray allen

12. Tracy McGrady
13. David Thompson
14. Pete Maravich

15. Earl Monroe


Small Forward
1. Larry Bird

2. Lebron James
3. Elgin Baylor
4. Julius Erving
5. John Havlicek
6. Rick Barry

7. Scottie Pippen

8. Billy Cunningham
9. Dominique Wilkins
10. Paul Pierce
11. Paul Arizin

12. Kevin Durant..Projected for top 5 by the end of his career. Could go as high as #3.
13. Bernard King

14. Carmelo Anthony
15. James Worthy


Power Forward
1. Tim Duncan

2. Bob Pettit
3. Dirk Nowitzki
4. Karl Malone
5. Charles Barkley
6. Kevin Garnett

7. Kevin McHale
8. Elvin Hayes
9. Chris Webber
10. Dolph Schayes

11. Pau Gasol
12. Dave Debusscherre
13. Jerry Lucas

14. Shawn Kemp
15. Dennis Rodman


Center
1. Bill Russell

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain

4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Hakeem Olajuwon

6. Moses Malone

7. Bill Walton
8. Patrick Ewing
9. David Robinson
10. Dave Cowens
11. Willis Reed

12. Dwight Howard....Projected for top 10 by the end of his career.
13. Bob McAdoo
14. Wes Unseld
15. Nate Thurmond

[SilkkTheShocker]

Stockton > Nash. Stock did the same things Nash did plus better D

The same Stockton that used to watch Malone choke instead of stepping up? Ok. Nash>>>>Stockton

[Raz]

John Havlicek should be on every list at SF.

1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. John Havlicek
5. Scottie Pippen

Forget Rick Barry, and Elgin Baylor was a power forward

[Overdrive]

C
1. Kareem 2. Wilt = Shaq 4. Hakeem 5. Russell

In my opinion Russell is a far superior player as a whole than Shaq and Wilt, won way more than Hakeem; only Kareem can be considered close, but strictly as a center all of those guys would destroy him(again imo).
I got to say that I only saw Russell and Wilt on old film during the '99 lockout and only saw Kareem on old tapes from the 80s. Started watching Ball in '94. So maybe if I witnessed everything live I'd have a different opinion. On a GOATlist I'd rank Russel above everyone of those guys 'cept for CAP, though.

PF
1. Duncan 2. Barkley 3. Dirk 4. Garnett 5. Malone

Total bias homerism. Duncan is too overwhelming other than that I liked Barkley and like Dirk more as players.
Garnett was and is awesome, but I'd rather have Dirk on my team and Barkley was ****ing awesome back in the day. Even had his shoes, best Nikes ever imo.

SF
1. Larry Bird 2. LeBron James 3. Julius Erving 4. Scottie Pippen 5. Elgin Baylor

Scottie was the more important second option, but maybe Jordan was a far better 1st option than West relative to their peers. Still homer vote.


SG
1. Michael Jordan 2. Kobe Bryant 3. Jerry West 4. Dwyane Wade 5. Clyde Drexler

I think Wade's little success without another All-Star and then Lebron coming along killed his chances at the #3 spot.


PG
1. Magic Johnson 2. Oscar Robertson 3. Isiah Thomas 4. John Stockton 5. Steve Nash

If this season turns out to be successful Nash will pass Stockton. Never saw anything by Frazier so I cannot put him anywhere. Stockton was awesome, his basketball mind was nearly unmatched. He knew where everyone was, knew what to do, knew how plays would unfold. The only guys I'd put above him in that aspect are Magic and Bird.

[Hands of Iron]

As an individual player, Lebron is better than Bird. He's better than Bird in almost every statistical category.

Bah!

[G.O.A.T]

Its just too hard to do those kind of things because so many players in the 50's and 60's would be the equivalent of a JJ Barea/Luke Ridnour/Luke Walton/Linas Kleiza/Aaron Gray team today.

Why?

If this is the case how come there wasn't a point in time when the NBA had complete turnover and the new style of players supplanted the old guard?

Players from the 1960's would do just as well today as they would have then. What made them good wasn't a subjective level of skill, it was that they were objectively better than their peers. Which of course is all that matters in reality.

[chips93]

it was that they were objectively better than their peers. Which of course is all that matters in reality.

maybe to you, but not to most people

[DTreats]

kobe > west

c'mon dudes:no:

[Yung D-Will]

PG

1- Magic
2- Oscar
3- Isiah
4- Stockton
5- Kidd/Payton/Nash


Sg

1- Michael Jordan
2- Kobe Bryant
3- Jerry West
4- Dwayne Wade
5- Clyde Drexler

Sf

1- Larry Bird
2- Dr. J
3. Lebron
4- Pippen
5- Hondo



Power Forward

1- Tim Duncan
2- Charles Barkley
3- Kevin Garnett
4- Karl Malone
5- Dirk Nowitzki


Center

1- Russell
2- Wilt/Kareem
3- Kareem/Wilt
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

[Raz]

Sf
1- Larry Bird
2- Dr. J
3. Lebron
4- Pippen
5- Hondo


Finally, someone with a brain. I can't believe how much Hondo gets slept on. The guy is a top 20 player.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Don't see the case for Doc J over Lebron.

[StateOfMind12]

John Havlicek should be on every list at SF.

I'll quote what Fatal9 said about Hondo in another thread about a year ago. It was brilliant.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239698&page=2


This was discussed earlier...anyways, I'm surprised with people voting for Hondo (and how high he already is) so I'll just post what I did earlier. I view him like a Ginobili but with amazing longevity. Clutch, great all-around game, incorporated his game with the team well (played as sixth man if needed), won finals MVP while not exactly being seen as the best player on the team, statistically I don't see much of a difference (adjusted stats actually favor Manu) and so on.

The two years where his numbers look really pretty need a closer look. He was playing like 45 minutes a game on a team that took the most shots in the league. That's going to produce raw numbers to make you look better than you really are. So raw statline looks impressive but if you look at it adjusted to the minutes/pace...they weren't really that impressive statistically (stats that take this into account kind of show this). Just something I hope everyone realizes, when he puts up 25/7/7...it's not really the 25/7/7 you see from someone like say LeBron nowadays.

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

You win half your championships putting up 12/5/2, 16/4/2, 13/4/3, 18/7/2 shooting 35%...I'm not going to see championships as a reason for you to be over LeBron, Dirk and others who won MVPs, played at a level he didn't and were in best player conversations year after year (no matter how you look at it...whether MVP voting, stats etc). And even the other runs, just use perspective on his stats because the combination of the pace, minutes and his efficiency doesn't really end up showing those as some epic playoff runs you expect out of a top 20 guy (especially one whose regular seasons don't hold up against most of these guys).

[1987_Lakers]

^

That is why Hondo didn't make my top 5. I always saw him as a Scottie Pippen type of player, great player but you are not going to win a championship with Hondo as your #1 player, same goes for Pippen. Rick Barry may not have Hondo's longevity, but there is no question Barry was the better player when both were at their prime.

[Owl]

C
1) Chamberlain/Jabbar
3) Russell
4) Shaq
5) Mikan

HM: Olajuwon, Malone, Robinson etc

PF
1) Duncan
2) Malone
3) Garnett
4) Pettit
5) Barkley

HM: McHale, Nowitzki, Hayes, Schayes

SF

1=) Bird/James
3) Baylor
4) Erving
5) Havlicek

HM:Barry, Pippen, Arizin,

SG
1) Jordan
2) West/Kobe
4) Wade
5) Sharman

HM: Drexler, Jones, McGrady, Gervin

PG
1) Robertson
2) Johnson
3) Stockton
4) Nash
5) Paul (should rise by end of career)

HM: Frazier, Payton, Cousy, Thomas

Some are closer than others e.g. 3 or 4 through to 6 or 7 on the small forwards could easily be switched around. After the top three in shooting guards there's a fairly substantial fall off in terms of value/production over career-span (though there are guys such as Wade and McGrady with similar, arguably superior peak value).

[oolalaa]

I'll quote what Fatal9 said about Hondo in another thread about a year ago. It was brilliant.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239698&page=2

I agree to a certain extent with what Fatal9 said, but Manu Ginobili is a really bizarre comparison. I wouldn't say their games were similar at all. Manu is far flashier than Hondo. Havlicek was a very fundemental player. Manu is a better perimiter shooter & playmaker. Hondo creams him everywhere else.

Scottie Pippen would be better. Hondo was a better scorer (Primarily becuase he had a more consistent jumper). Pip was better defensively. The rest of their abilities are probably a wash.

I need to look into his career a little bit more. I need to conclusively decide who the Celtics best player was from '72-'74 in particular. Although I generally assume that Hondo was their best player and leader, there's always something in the back of my mind that screams "DAVE COWENS!!!".

[Round Mound]

PG

1-Magic Johnson
2-Oscar Robertson
3-John Stockton
4-Walt Fraizer
5-Gary Payton or Steve Nash

SG

1-Michael Jordan
2-Kobe Bryant
3-Jerry West
4-George Gervin
5-Dwyane Wade

SF

1-Larry Bird
2-Lebron James
3-Julius Erving
4-Elgin Baylor
5-John Havlicek

PF

1-Charles Barkley
2-Tim Duncan
3-Karl Malone
4-Kevin Garnett
5-Kevin McHale or Bob Pettit

C

1-Wilt Chamberlain
2-Kareem Abdul Jabbar
3-Shaquille Oniel
4-Hakeem Olajuwon
5-David Robinson

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

Anyone who fails to have Stockton in their top 5 PGs gets a :facepalm .
Anyone who fails to have Malone in their top 3 PFs gets a :facepalm .

Some of you guys should not be allowed to procreate

[Owl]

This was discussed earlier...anyways, I'm surprised with people voting for Hondo (and how high he already is) so I'll just post what I did earlier. I view him like a Ginobili but with amazing longevity. Clutch, great all-around game, incorporated his game with the team well (played as sixth man if needed), won finals MVP while not exactly being seen as the best player on the team, statistically I don't see much of a difference (adjusted stats actually favor Manu) and so on.

The two years where his numbers look really pretty need a closer look. He was playing like 45 minutes a game on a team that took the most shots in the league. That's going to produce raw numbers to make you look better than you really are. So raw statline looks impressive but if you look at it adjusted to the minutes/pace...they weren't really that impressive statistically (stats that take this into account kind of show this). Just something I hope everyone realizes, when he puts up 25/7/7...it's not really the 25/7/7 you see from someone like say LeBron nowadays.

He won championships, but he was never the leading MVP guy on his team in any of those years. During his first 6 championships? He finished top 10 in MVP voting once...and it was exactly 10th behind a 34 year old Cousy and Terry Deschinger. He won with Russell just like everyone else did, though I'll admit he probably did a lot more than anyone else Russell played with in the '68 and '69 playoffs. Then when Celtics won 68 in '73? Cowens won the MVP. Then when they won in '74? Cowens was top 4, Hondo was tied for 9th with Norm Van Lier. Then when they won in '76? Cowens was a couple of first place votes away from winning the MVP again...Hondo meanwhile was 24th (he was putting up 17/4/4 by this point, 13/4/3 in the playoffs...and they still won). And it's not like he led the team anywhere when Russell left (from championship to 34 wins) and Cowens wasn't drafted yet, maybe that's the reason he didn't really get MVP love over Cowens in the 70s.

You win half your championships putting up 12/5/2, 16/4/2, 13/4/3, 18/7/2 shooting 35%...I'm not going to see championships as a reason for you to be over LeBron, Dirk and others who won MVPs, played at a level he didn't and were in best player conversations year after year (no matter how you look at it...whether MVP voting, stats etc). And even the other runs, just use perspective on his stats because the combination of the pace, minutes and his efficiency doesn't really end up showing those as some epic playoff runs you expect out of a top 20 guy (especially one whose regular seasons don't hold up against most of these guys).


I'm voting for Dirk. As a player, he's a level above so I don't really care how many championships or what not Havlicek won.
To those citing the above

I don't think the Ginobilli comparision is entirely unfair (though I'm not sure it's the best comp, as oolalaa states Pippen seems more obvious), though Havlicek was on All-Defense teams from when they started until the age of 35. So he's a significantly better defender, one of the great wing defenders. I'd also add minutes are important for production. I happily advocate analysing based on per minute production. But if you can have this elite player (and excellent defender) and you can choose a Havlicek who was capable of playing 45 minutes a game or a Ginobili who has to be kept under 30 and then 15 minutes of his backup, getting that extra 15 minutes (or half as much again on top of the 30) of elite production is a really big deal.

As to the Barry comparison, there might not have been a question that Barry was more talented, more of a star, better on the offensive end, Havlicek played longer, aged better, was a better teammate, was a better defender was capable of playing more minutes (Barry is close and had a higher career mpg, but that's because Red brought Hondo on slowly, having a deep bench and liking to keep Frank Ramsey around) and was less injury prone than Barry. So I think it's at least arguable that Havlicek was better or had a better career.

[1987_Lakers]

Anyone who fails to have Stockton in their top 5 PGs gets a :facepalm .
Anyone who fails to have Malone in their top 3 PFs gets a :facepalm .

Some of you guys should not be allowed to procreate

What makes Malone better than Garnett & Barkley?

The only thing Malone has over those guys is longevity, both Barkley & Garnett shit on K. Malone in terms of peak play, Malone was given an MVP in '97 because people felt bad for him and he constantly choked in big games, not to mention he had Stockton to set him up his entire career.

Stockton again had great longevity, but I would take a handful of point guards over Stockton in their prime over prime Stockton.

I guess it's what you value more prime vs longevity, I guess I value prime more.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

What makes Malone better than Garnett & Barkley?

The only thing Malone has over those guys is longevity, both Barkley & Garnett shit on K. Malone in terms of peak play, Malone was given an MVP in '97 because people felt bad for him and he constantly choked in big games, not to mention he had Stockton to set him up his entire career.

Stockton again had great longevity, but I would take a handful of point guards over Stockton in their prime over prime Stockton.

I guess it's what you value more prime vs longevity, I guess I value prime more.
Stockton was one of the greatest defensive PGs of all time. Obviously he holds the assists record, not just because of longevity. He was also a deadly shooter. Check his numbers.
As for Malone, also a great defender, if not a little on the dirty side. Sure, Stockton passed him the ball, but he still made shots...lots of shots. You don't put up those kinds of numbers (#2 all time in scoring) just because you played a long time. You have to be GREAT a long time. And he was.
He was universally regarded as the greatest PF of all time until Duncan came along.
Barkley was a weak defender, but solid offensively. Barkley was probably the better rebounder, but Malone was overall better. Plus Malone played at a higher level longer.
Don't get me started on KG.

[Owl]

What makes Malone better than Garnett & Barkley?

The only thing Malone has over those guys is longevity, both Barkley & Garnett shit on K. Malone in terms of peak play, Malone was given an MVP in '97 because people felt bad for him and he constantly choked in big games, not to mention he had Stockton to set him up his entire career.

Stockton again had great longevity, but I would take a handful of point guards over Stockton in their prime over prime Stockton.

I guess it's what you value more prime vs longevity, I guess I value prime more.
Malone has identical advanced stats peaks to Malone (PER or WS/48). Factor in Malone's superior defense and you have a decent argument for Malone having a higher peak. Malone then also has a substantial advantage in longevity.

[G.O.A.T]

maybe to you, but not to most people

No, not to me, to reality.

Because LeBron isn't as big/strong/fast/skilled as someone who will play in 2056, will not impact his quest to win titles and achieve things now. Only the people that exist/play now matter.

[Hands of Iron]

No, not to me, to reality.

Because LeBron isn't as big/strong/fast/skilled as someone who will play in 2056, will not impact his quest to win titles and achieve things now. Only the people that exist/play now matter.

Pretty difficult to argue that, Wise One.

However, all this stuff about Bird NOT being the Greatest SF is pure poppycock conjecture. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

Malone has identical advanced stats peaks to Barkley (PER or WS/48). Factor in Malone's superior defense and you have a decent argument for Malone having a higher peak. Malone then also has a substantial advantage in longevity.

That is ludicrous. Barkley CLEARLY had a higher peak than Malone.

And to say Stockton was some sort of defensive beast is wrong as well and lets not forget that defense from the pg spot isn't really that important compared to the other positions. I just think Nash was the better player because of his ability to take over games.

[Round Mound]

Stockton was one of the greatest defensive PGs of all time. Obviously he holds the assists record, not just because of longevity. He was also a deadly shooter. Check his numbers.
As for Malone, also a great defender, if not a little on the dirty side. Sure, Stockton passed him the ball, but he still made shots...lots of shots. You don't put up those kinds of numbers (#2 all time in scoring) just because you played a long time. You have to be GREAT a long time. And he was.
He was universally regarded as the greatest PF of all time until Duncan came along.
Barkley was a weak defender, but solid offensively. Barkley was probably the better rebounder, but Malone was overall better. Plus Malone played at a higher level longer.
Don't get me started on KG.

:roll: :facepalm :rolleyes: :no:

How was Malone Better than Barkley? He was a Better Defender but Not Greatly So like Garnett or Duncan. Malone wasn`t a Great Defender, he was Good Defender thast ALL. He Wasn`t the Team Defender, Shot Blocker and Stealer Barkley was.

Offensively? Malone Shot More FGAs PG thats Why His PPG is Higher But He WASNT CLOSE TO AS EFFICIENT PER SHOT that Barkley Was. Barkley HAD A WAY HIGHER 2-POINT FG% (in the Level of Shaq, Kareem and Wilt), HIGHER OVERAL FG%, HIGHER eFG%, HIGHER TS%, HIGHER ORT etc

EFF: Barkley Ranks Higher
PER: Barkley Rans Higher
+/-: Barkley Ranks Higher
Shot Made/Missed Diferential: Barkley Ranks Higher
WS per 48 Minutes: Barkley Ranks Higher

Barkley was a Better Pure Scorer...Just Look at Play-Offs, 2-Point FG% and ORT. Barkley needed nobody to Score.

Barkley was a Better Rebounder...Much Better

Barkley was a Better Creator...BallHandler

Barkley was a Better Passer and Assister

Barkley Was a Better Floor Defender and Stealer also Shot Blocker

Barkley was a Better BIG GAME Player

Barkley was Clutcher

Barkley Was More Difficult To Guard..:Created More Missmatches, Ilegal Defenses and Forced Rule Changes

BARKLEY > Stockton-to-Malone

[Hands of Iron]

:roll: :facepalm :rolleyes: :no:

How was Malone Better than Barkley? He was a Better Defender but Not Greatly So like Garnett or Duncan. Malone wasn`t a Great Defender, he was Good Defender thast ALL. He Wasn`t the Team Defender, Shot Blocker and Stealer Barkley was.

Offensively? Malone Shot More FGAs PG thats Why His PPG is Higher But He WASNT CLOSE TO AS EFFICIENT PER SHOT that Barkley Was. Barkley HAD A WAY HIGHER 2-POINT FG% (in the Level of Shaq, Kareem and Wilt), HIGHER OVERAL FG%, HIGHER eFG%, HIGHER TS%, HIGHER ORT etc

EFF: Barkley Ranks Higher
PER: Barkley Rans Higher
+/-: Barkley Ranks Higher
Shot Made/Missed Diferential: Barkley Ranks Higher
WS per 48 Minutes: Barkley Ranks Higher

Barkley was a Better Pure Scorer...Just Look at Play-Offs, 2-Point FG% and ORT. Barkley needed nobody to Score.

Barkley was a Better Rebounder...Much Better

Barkley was a Better Creator...BallHandler

Barkley was a Better Passer and Assister

Barkley Was a Better Floor Defender and Stealer also Shot Blocker

Barkley was a Better BIG GAME Player

Barkley was Clutcher

Barkley Was More Difficult To Guard..:Created More Missmatches, Ilegal Defenses and Forced Rule Changes

BARKLEY > Stockton-to-Malone

LMAO! Saw this onslaught coming miles away.

God Damn it would suck to have Charles be my favorite player of all-time. That's a courageous, tireless battle you take on here each and every day, Round Mound.

[WolfGang]

Lebron should number 1. It's ok to put Lebron over Bird.

[Round Mound]

LMAO! Saw this onslaught coming miles away.

God Damn it would suck to have Charles be my favorite player of all-time. That's a courageous, tireless battle you take on here each and every day, Round Mound.

Its because most people watched the NBA when it was passed 1995 when Barkley was consantly injured with back and knee problems plus loosing his explosivness and leaping ability...he was a shell of his former self...still all star level but not close to what he was from 85 to 95. Most kids here have watched the NBA 97 on when Barkley was a role player. Im here to show and give evidence of his prime before injuries.

My 2nd Fave Player is Bird BTW

[kobron23]

PG

1- Magic
2- Oscar
3- Isiah
4- Stockton
5- Payton


Sg

1- Michael Jordan
2- Kobe Bryant
3- Clyde Drexler
4- Dwayne Wade
5- Manu Ginobili

Sf

1- Lebron
2- Bird
3. Dr. J
4- Pippen
5- Irving



Power Forward

1- Tim Duncan
2- Kevin Garnett
3- Charles Barkley
4- Karl Malone
5- Kevin Mchale


Center

1- Russell
2- Wilt
3- Kareem
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem

[Hands of Iron]

Its because most people watched the NBA when it was passed 1995 when Barkley was consantly injured with back and knee problems plus loosing his explosivness and leaping ability...he was a shell of his former self...still all star level but not close to what he was from 85 to 95. Most kids here have watched the NBA 97 on when Barkley was a role player. Im here to show and give evidence of his prime before injuries.

My 2nd Fave Player is Bird BTW

Few great players get shitted on by the current generation worse than Charles Barkley. I don't think the TNT stint has really helped as far as kids taking him seriously. Barkley played the game with White Shit Hot Intensity and Fire. Truly ultra-aggressive, bad ass dude.

[Round Mound]

Few great players get shitted on by the current generation worse than Charles Barkley. I don't think the TNT stint has really helped as far as kids taking him seriously. Barkley played the game with White Shit Hot Intensity and Fire. Truly ultra-aggressive, bad ass dude.

I remember the times when Barkley was hated by the whole media cause of the bar fights incidents and his brash personality etc. He has always been funny but his agressive and brash demenor was hated by the media some coaches more than his funny side. Today they only know the funny Barkley not the one that used to take a dump on players 4-7 inches taller than him

:oldlol:

[joeyjoejoe]

Malone had a better all round game, much better defender, not as turn over, laziness and injury prone, much more longevity and it matters (tmac), malone was also very good stealer i remember reading he ranked 7th in 00 i think it was the other top 9 guys were all guards, malone has more mvps and allstar mvps, better scorer, more allnba allstar and alldef selections, 2nd in points alltime. Malone is better then barkley

[Round Mound]

Malone had a better all round game, much better defender, not as turn over, laziness and injury prone, much more longevity and it matters (tmac), malone was also very good stealer i remember reading he ranked 7th in 00 i think it was the other top 9 guys were all guards, malone has more mvps and allstar mvps, better scorer, more allnba allstar and alldef selections, 2nd in points alltime. Malone is better then barkley

Malone Better All Around Game? :rolleyes: Please.....:facepalm

Could He Shoot Like Barkley from the Post or Mid Range for 58.13% Two-Point FG on 22 PPG on only 13 Tw-Point FGAs PG? :no:

Could He Handle and Dribble the Ball Coast to Coast or in the Mid Range Face Up 1 on 1 like Barkley? :no:

Could he Rebound like Barkley? :no:

Could He Pass and Create like Barkley? :no:

Barkley was a Better Shot Blocker and Stealer too. Better Team Defender

Was He Clutch at All? :no:

Could He Create Ilegal Defenses, Need Change of The Rules like Barkley? :no:

Could He More Big Games in the Play-Offs like Barkley? :no:

-Malone shot 50% FG for only 3 of his Total Play-Off Runs.
-He Shot 46% FG in the Play-Offs.

OH ..Malone has more MVPs? Don`t Give Me This Crap Again...Steve Nash has More MVPs than Shaq was he Better? :no: Even Close.

Barkley was Better than Malone from 1985-to 1995. Clearly.

Longevity is not a Skill

[jongib369]

Switch Malone with Barkley....Stockton Passing to Round Mound...outcome?

[Kobe 4 The Win]

As an individual player, Lebron is better than Bird. He's better than Bird in almost every statistical category.

lol, except FG%, 3PT%, FT%, rebounds, steals, blocks and the difference in assists is fractional.

I don't understand how people let this kind of shit slide?

[Hands of Iron]

lol, except FG%, 3PT%, FT%, rebounds, steals, blocks and the difference in assists is fractional.

I don't understand how people let this kind of shit slide?

Stats are Stats. Bird's peak is comparable to anybody.

I think I already said the same damn thing earlier today, looking at their set of abilities and skills, Lebron's by far the superior athlete and on the ball defender. A much better finisher at the rim and draws more FT's due to that as well. Bird is a far more versatile scorer and plays better off the ball; better from the post, mid-range, long-range, deep and at the line, a superior shooter all-around and a better rebounder. Their playmaking ability could probably be called even although Bird didn't need to dominate the ball to nearly the same extent to rack up dimes which sort of makes up for the pace factor argument people inevitably bring to the table. I don't think anybody would seriously claim Lebron trumps Bird in regards to intangibles or being clutch.

[joeyjoejoe]

There certainly were seasons where barkley was better but not 92 and not after 93, awards are not be all end all but they do matter as does longevity they are two important factors when ranking players along with prime and rings, barkley was great no doubt as in his prime but without rings, awards and records that often come with longevity hes just like tmac

[Overdrive]

Switch Malone with Barkley....Stockton Passing to Round Mound...outcome?

CAP would be the unanimous GOAT.


There certainly were seasons where barkley was better but not 92 and not after 93, awards are not be all end all but they do matter as does longevity they are two important factors when ranking players along with prime and rings, barkley was great no doubt as in his prime but without rings, awards and records that often come with longevity hes just like tmac

That's some serious diss. T-Mac's peak was awesome, but c'mon it's not like Barkley was good for 3 seasons and then fell off.

[Hands of Iron]

Barkley was pretty phenomenal from 1987-93 for the most part. He had sub-standard 1992 season as he had serious issues going on within the organization.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Centers
1. Russell
2. Abdul-Jabbar
3. O'Neal
4. Olajuwon
5. Chamberlain

[b1imtf]

The same Stockton that used to watch Malone choke instead of stepping up? Ok. Nash>>>>Stockton
The same Nash who never made it to the finals?

[dyna]

PG
1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Isiah
4. Kidd
5. Stockton
6. Nash

SG
1. Jordan
2. Bryant
3. West
4. Wade
5. Drexler
6. Gervin

SF
1. Bird
2. Lebron
3. Erving
4. Baylor
5. Pippen
6. Havlicek

PF
1. Duncan
2. Garnett
3. Barkley
4. Malone
5. Dirk
6. Mchale

C
1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Shaq
4. Hakeem
5. Russell
6. M Malone

[swi7ch]

How is Shaq better than Hakeem?

No jumper.
Can't shoot FTs.
Can't put him in the game if it's close due to Hack-A-Shaq.
Chemistry problems.
etc.

:facepalm

Hakeem has no weakness whereas I immediately came up with 4 BIG ONES for Shaq in under 10 seconds! :facepalm

[Round Mound]

There certainly were seasons where barkley was better but not 92 and not after 93, awards are not be all end all but they do matter as does longevity they are two important factors when ranking players along with prime and rings, barkley was great no doubt as in his prime but without rings, awards and records that often come with longevity hes just like tmac

Barkleys Prime lasted from 1985-86 to 1995-96. Barkley was Better than Malone from 1985-96 to 94-95 Barkley (that year he also had Higher PER too well also Higher PER in the Play-Offs Where Malone Always Declined).

1995-96 Season was when Barkley passed the Tourch to Malone among Pfs.

Longevity is not a Skill. Bryant Will Have a Longer Career and Maybe Better Full Resume Numbers than MJ. Was He Better than MJ? :no:

Nash has 2 MVPs...Shaq has 1 MVP. Was Nash Better? :no:

PER
EFF
Plus/Minus

etc All Suggest Barkley was a More Efficient and Dominant Player than Malone. No Hate on Malone he is One of My Favorite Players but Chuck was Better 10-11 Years out of the 16. The Problem is Chuck`s last 12-16 Years was a Role Player cause he Couldn`t Play Anymore do To Back Problems and Also Knee Injuries and the Loosing of His Explosiveness, Power and Leaping Ability which Where Needed for His Style of Play.

[G.O.A.T]

How is Shaq better than Hakeem?

No jumper.
Can't shoot FTs.
Can't put him in the game if it's close due to Hack-A-Shaq.
Chemistry problems.
etc.

:facepalm

Hakeem has no weakness whereas I immediately came up with 4 BIG ONES for Shaq in under 10 seconds! :facepalm

Shaq was considerably more dominant though. And as far as Hakeem's weaknesses, the main one for me is that he was consistently poor in the clutch throughout his playoff career outside of 1994 and 1995.

Additionally, Hakeem was a poor and unwilling passer early in his career (for almost a decade) And he was never the dominant scorer Shaq was.

As far as your Shaq criticisms...

Shaq didn't need a jumper. He scored as well as any big man has since the merger and did so at a near 60% clip.

Name one series or even a game that Orlando, LA or Miami lost because of the Hack-a-Shaq.

[Gifted Mind]

John Havlicek should be on every list at SF.


I agree

This is the most common omission I see in this thread. Havlicek has become very underrated (at least on ISH)

[Deuce Bigalow]

I agree

This is the most common omission I see in this thread. Havlicek has become very underrated (at least on ISH)
How many times has he been top 10 in MVP voting?

[Gifted Mind]

How many times has he been top 10 in MVP voting?
5 times. More than Pippen or Barry.

[joshwake]

Anyone who fails to have Stockton in their top 5 PGs gets a :facepalm .
Anyone who fails to have Malone in their top 3 PFs gets a :facepalm .

Some of you guys should not be allowed to procreate
^this

[bizil]

PG- Magic, Big O, Zeke, Frazier, Stockton
SG- MJ, Kobe, West, Wade, Drexler
SF- Bird, Dr. J (if ABA was weighted as it should be, Doc in my book would actually be number one), Lebron, Hondo, Barry
PF- Duncan, Malone, KG, Dirk, Barkley (peak wise #1)
C- Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Shaq, Hakeem

[Owl]

Malone has identical advanced stats peaks to Malone (PER or WS/48). Factor in Malone's superior defense and you have a decent argument for Malone having a higher peak. Malone then also has a substantial advantage in longevity.

That is ludicrous. Barkley CLEARLY had a higher peak than Malone.

And to say Stockton was some sort of defensive beast is wrong as well and lets not forget that defense from the pg spot isn't really that important compared to the other positions. I just think Nash was the better player because of his ability to take over games.
What part exactly is ludicrous. That their peak year advanced stats are identical (peak PER 28.9 each, peak ws/48 Barkley .269, Malone .268). Or that Malone was the better defender. Please explain to me which part is untrue. Or perhaps you think peak covers multiple years. Malone's 2nd best year in each of these metrics are marginally superior Barkley's 2nd best year. To put it simply, their best years are statistically comparable when you factor in pace. So maybe you disagree with the defense part, though 3 1st Team and a 2nd Team All-Defensive Team, versus zero and zero respectively for Charles suggests otherwise.

[Raz]

What part exactly is ludicrous. That their peak year advanced stats are identical (peak PER 28.9 each, peak ws/48 Barkley .269, Malone .268). Or that Malone was the better defender. Please explain to me which part is untrue. Or perhaps you think peak covers multiple years. Malone's 2nd best year in each of these metrics are marginally superior Barkley's 2nd best year. To put it simply, their best years are statistically comparable when you factor in pace. So maybe you disagree with the defense part, though 3 1st Team and a 2nd Team All-Defensive Team, versus zero and zero respectively for Charles suggests otherwise.

To play devil's advocate here, I'd like to point out the percentage of assisted field goals for each player would be very different. Barkley thrived scoring in one on one situations, on put backs, and in transition, while Malone was heavily assisted by Stockton.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Another list that shows how disregarded Dirk truly is.... seeing many posts that don't include him in the Top 5, behind the likes of Kevin McHale.

[Yung D-Will]

How is Shaq better than Hakeem?

No jumper.
Can't shoot FTs.
Can't put him in the game if it's close due to Hack-A-Shaq.
Chemistry problems.
etc.

:facepalm

Hakeem has no weakness whereas I immediately came up with 4 BIG ONES for Shaq in under 10 seconds! :facepalm


It doesn't matter if he had weaknesses. Shaq knew for damn good reasons, outside of bulking up and becoming a great passer, he had no need to work on the rest of his game. People work on their offensive game when they need other options to make them more lethal, Shaq averaged 20+/10+ on 55%+ shooting for 13 straight seasons, since the moment he entered into the leauge.

[Owl]

To play devil's advocate here, I'd like to point out the percentage of assisted field goals for each player would be very different. Barkley thrived scoring in one on one situations, on put backs, and in transition, while Malone was heavily assisted by Stockton.
I wouldn't want to get into a huge off topic debate, largely because I was just calling BS on someone who said a prior post was "ludicrous" despite what I said being demonstrably true.

But my counterpoints would be
1) Do we actually know what percentage of their shots were assisted. If not I'd be reticent to punish Malone too heavily based on conjecture and selective memories.
and
2) Shot creation in the two man game is the responsibility of 2 men. If the picker sets bad picks, isn't a threat to pop out and hit the J, doesn't time the roll right etc then you don't score. Malone's picks helped Stock get his (amazing for a pg) %s too. You could also argue whether Charles was a ball hog who couldn't play off the ball and (I'm thinking of his later years here) ate up a lot of the clock backing players down and setting up his moves.
3) Utah's opponents always knew where the ball was going. They planned for it. And they couldn't stop it. Karl was scoring close to double the amount of Utah's next highest scorer in the years the Jazz made the finals. He never played on a team like the Suns who in 93 had 6 other (i.e. not including Charles) players scoring in double figures, Ainge the lowest at 11.8 .

[kennethgriffin]

C
1. Wilt (Overall Impact, versatility and with the right coach you can mold him to do w/e you want, EXTREME longevity potential)
2. Russell GOAT Defense and GOAT team player
3. Kareem
==== Poetry
4. Hakeem
5. Shaq- Bigmac

PF
1. Duncan- FUNDAMENTALS :D
2. Barkley- Imagine if he was taller?
3. Malone
4. Garnett
5. Elvin Hayes

SF
1. Larry Bird
2. LeBron James
3. Julius Erving
4. Rick Barry
5. Elgin baylor- Probably a reason why the lakers won a championship when he left

SG
1. Michael Jordan- Don't piss him off

2. Jerry West https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rjREaql2U



3. Kobe Bryant- Toss up between West and Kobe IMO.. I respect the hell out of both of them and feel like Im slighting each of them putting one over the other :confusedshrug:
4. Dwyane Wade
5. Clyde Drexler

PG
1. Magic Johnson Toss up between Magic and oscar for me
2. Oscar Robertson
3. Isiah Thomas
4. Walt Frazier
5. Jason kidd



I feel like I'm forgetting a few people...


:biggums:

what is this 1999?

[Psileas]

Not that I'd necessarily replicate these exact rankings a few weeks from now, but:

PG:

1. Magic
2. Oscar
3. Stockton
4. Isiah (better than Stockton at his peak, but way smaller prime, plus, people forget his own shortcomings)
5. Cousy

SG:

1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. West
4-6: Gervin/Drexler/Wade

SF

1. Bird
2. LeBron/Erving (inc. the ABA years)
3. Erving/LeBron
4. Baylor
5-6. Havlicek/Barry

PF

1. Duncan
2. Malone
3. Barkley
4. Garnett
5. Pettit

C

1. Wilt
2. Kareem
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem