The most unguardable player in NBA History?

[EnoughSaid]

Who was the toughest guy to cover in history?

In my eyes:

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/lg_olajuwon_all.jpg

:bowdown:

[fpliii]

hmmm, we all know the usual suspects who will be named in this thread

let me throw out a name that belongs up there (perhaps not the 'most' unguardable, but top 10 for sure): David 'Skywalker' Thompson

[riseagainst]

shaq

[iggy>]

Wilt... No player back then was big enough or athletic enough to even slow him down. Don't give me Russell, wilt dominated him with ease.

[CarlosBoozer]

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/shaq.jpg

[JellyBean]

Lebron James, Shaq, and Wilt.

[QuebecBaller]

One of this guys

Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan
Shaq
Wilt
KAJ

Probably in that order.

[Nick Young]

Shaq.

The Hakeem the Dream myth continues to grow. This is due to youtube highlight comps. He was not an unstoppable offensive dominant juggernaut on the level of shaq.

McHale was more ungaurdable than Hakeem as well.

[TheMan]

Who was the toughest guy to cover in history?

In my eyes:

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/lg_olajuwon_all.jpg

:bowdown:
and you know this how? From a few YouTube videos? You just started watching the NBA a few months ago:facepalm

[Pushxx]

Wilt, McHale, Shaq, Jordan.

[tontoz]

Man to man it has to be Shaq.

Shaq''s problem, and the problem for any big man, i actually getting the ball. They have to rely on the other players to get them the ball and sometimes some of those players aren't willing passers.

[get these NETS]

"see.......he's like one of those terrorist MFers.....ain't no defense against him......see I know you see the big picture..the problem with a lot of people is they only see the narrow view"


with all due respect to Wilt Chamberlain, and maybe one of his backers can answer, in the famous Willis Reed walks out of tunnel game, why didn't Wilt just keep taking him down in the post and punish him ....????

In fact, against with due respect.....how was even a healthy Reed even able to guard Wilt..giving up so much height and size?

Wilt averaged those gaudy numbers on smaller weaker guys....imo


THERE was no defensive plan, technique, stance to plan against Dream

keep him out of the low blocks, he'll catch is further out...face up and do a ballet move on you

front him, and he'll spin away and catch it and dunk it

watch some clips of him against Rodman....he destroyed rodman easily...

quick, strong, could shake and shoot going left or right, superior footwork, drop steps,made his free throws,

UNBEATABLE

[get these NETS]

to stop shaq.....foul him..put him on the line

[magictricked]

to stop shaq.....foul him..put him on the lineThat's not guarding. That's admitting you can't guard him :lol

[Sarcastic]

Jordan in 1990 was the ultimate weapon. That was the first year that he was a real threat from the 3 point line. He could get the rim at will, or he could kill you form outside.

[alleykat]

if you mean just single converge then it would have to be shaq tho people could make a case sabonis and drob did a good job...

u pretty much have to be an physically beast.....russell, shaq, and nowadays lebron seem to have a physical advantage over those that guard them...

[Nick Young]

"see.......he's like one of those terrorist MFers.....ain't no defense against him......see I know you see the big picture..the problem with a lot of people is they only see the narrow view"


with all due respect to Wilt Chamberlain, and maybe one of his backers can answer, in the famous Willis Reed walks out of tunnel game, why didn't Wilt just keep taking him down in the post and punish him ....????

In fact, against with due respect.....how was even a healthy Reed even able to guard Wilt..giving up so much height and size?

Wilt averaged those gaudy numbers on smaller weaker guys....imo


THERE was no defensive plan, technique, stance to plan against Dream

keep him out of the low blocks, he'll catch is further out...face up and do a ballet move on you

front him, and he'll spin away and catch it and dunk it

watch some clips of him against Rodman....he destroyed rodman easily...

quick, strong, could shake and shoot going left or right, superior footwork, drop steps,made his free throws,

UNBEATABLE
If he was unbeatable, why was he beaten in the west so often?:facepalm

Hakeem was not doing dream shakes and crazy fadeaways every time he touched the ball. Often times he would go up to soft. Watching a Rockets game with Hakeem was not like watching a Hakeem youtube compilation in real life. Who actually saw him play whole games? Shaq was so much more dominant than him. Even Duncan was more dominant, from my memory.

This unstoppable Hakeem myth on ISH that has been growing over the years needs to die.

[swi7ch]

shaq

Hakeem swept him 4-0

Next!!!

[Nick Young]

if you mean just single converge then it would have to be shaq tho people could make a case sabonis and drob did a good job...

u pretty much have to be an physically beast.....russell, shaq, and nowadays lebron seem to have a physical advantage over those that guard them...
Another myth.

Shaq turned Sabonis into so many posters. He also averaged his season averages vs Sabonis. When Lakers played Portland in those days also, it wasn't Sabonis single coverage on shaq-it was Sabonis guards Shaq until Shaq catches the ball, and then Sheed, Pippen and Sabonis collapse on Shaq.

PORTLAND USED TO TRIPLE TEAM SHAQ FOR CHRISTS SAKE.

I have never seen Hakeem get triple teamed consistently like I've seen happen to Shaq in multiple playoff and regular season games.

And the best part about Shaq is even with a triple team, Shaq would either just score on them all anyway, or, due to being one of the best passing bigmen of all time, would get his teammates a great shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDv4p0p0sZY
This is true unguardableness.

Shaq went up against reigning defensive player of the year Dikembe Mutumbo in the finals and shitted on him for 40/20 every game.

[Pointguard]

"see.......he's like one of those terrorist MFers.....ain't no defense against him......see I know you see the big picture..the problem with a lot of people is they only see the narrow view"

"Problem is, he ain't no terrorist."


with all due respect to Wilt Chamberlain, and maybe one of his backers can answer, in the famous Willis Reed walks out of tunnel game, why didn't Wilt just keep taking him down in the post and punish him ....????

In fact, against with due respect.....how was even a healthy Reed even able to guard Wilt..giving up so much height and size?
Wilt played like 12 games that year and he wasn't supposed to be back from knee surgery that year. Back then knee surgery was usually career ending. Wilt had just come off 45 points and 27 rebounds in game six and it seemed to have taxed him.



Wilt averaged those gaudy numbers on smaller weaker guys....imo
Wilt was playing like 28 games in a season against Russell and Thurmond both of which are the highest level of defense there is.



THERE was no defensive plan, technique, stance to plan against Dream

keep him out of the low blocks, he'll catch is further out...face up and do a ballet move on you.
Wow, you really aren't a terrorist!


front him, and he'll spin away and catch it and dunk it

watch some clips of him against Rodman....he destroyed rodman easily...

quick, strong, could shake and shoot going left or right, superior footwork, drop steps,made his free throws,

UNBEATABLE
I do think he was the most resourceful person in the paint. He could go into an infinite bag of tricks to score.

[CavaliersFTW]

Wilt... No player back then was big enough or athletic enough to even slow him down. Don't give me Russell, wilt dominated him with ease.
I agree with your answer but not your reasoning...

Can we please bury these "he faced no one" myths?

http://youtu.be/1pwS6dxlR6g

Guys like Thurmond/Russell/Reed/Unseld/Jabbar!? :facepalm Wilt's competition would tear up a league from any era

[Flagrant 2]

Lebron James,
http://www.portlandmercury.com/images/blogimages/2011/06/10/1307721580-marionbeat2.gif

[Legends66NBA7]

Guys like Thurmond/Russell/Reed/Unseld/Jabbar!? :facepalm Wilt's competition would tear up a league from any era

Yeah... Even though they were young players at the time, there was so much depth at that position... all those players had immediate impact for their teams.

Which is why the center position will always remain the most valuable.

I've heard people say how Wilt would struggle in the 80's and 90's because he didn't face the like of Hakeem, Shaq, or basically... "weren't facing 22-29 teams a night", but fail to recognize that he was top class athlete, regardless and would have held his own against any center.

[heavensdevil]

Shaq, then Jordan.

[jongib369]

"see.......he's like one of those terrorist MFers.....ain't no defense against him......see I know you see the big picture..the problem with a lot of people is they only see the narrow view"


with all due respect to Wilt Chamberlain, and maybe one of his backers can answer, in the famous Willis Reed walks out of tunnel game, why didn't Wilt just keep taking him down in the post and punish him ....????

In fact, against with due respect.....how was even a healthy Reed even able to guard Wilt..giving up so much height and size?

Wilt averaged those gaudy numbers on smaller weaker guys....imo


THERE was no defensive plan, technique, stance to plan against Dream

keep him out of the low blocks, he'll catch is further out...face up and do a ballet move on you

front him, and he'll spin away and catch it and dunk it

watch some clips of him against Rodman....he destroyed rodman easily...

quick, strong, could shake and shoot going left or right, superior footwork, drop steps,made his free throws,

UNBEATABLE
Nate Thurmond, Kareem, Bill Russell, Wes Unseld, Walt bellamy, to just name a few that aren't small guys. In a condensed league, Wilt faced Russell 143 times if Im not mistaken...he faced his top piers/HOF piers WAY more often than any other Center since his time.

He put up numbers on Thurmond, Bellamy, and a few others I cant think of ATM that Kareem couldnt match facing the same guys when they were past there prime...Not meaning this to be a smart ass or anything, but you're wrong when you say he he faced smaller weaker guys...Shaq had more of an overall Size Advantige over the Centers he faced than Wilt did, and faced the top tier centers Way less often.

With that being said my top 5 in no particular order

Kareem
Hakeem
Jordan
Wilt
Shaq

[Meticode]

Shaq and there's no close comparison to be honest in my ind. If you're so dominate that you literally foul him on purpose repeatedly without him taking a shot basically giving him at least 1 free point every trip down the court. You're as dominate as they come.

[riseagainst]

Rondo.
/thread

[get these NETS]

If he was unbeatable, why was he beaten in the west so often?:facepalm

Hakeem was not doing dream shakes and crazy fadeaways every time he touched the ball. Often times he would go up to soft. Watching a Rockets game with Hakeem was not like watching a Hakeem youtube compilation in real life. Who actually saw him play whole games? Shaq was so much more dominant than him. Even Duncan was more dominant, from my memory.

This unstoppable Hakeem myth on ISH that has been growing over the years needs to die.


learning curve

Dream really started playing organized basketball when he was a frosh at Univ. of Houston

even the year the Rockets faced the Celtics in the finals..technically his 3-4 th pro year but maybe his 6th year playing basketball

he was making all nba first team before his entire game was even developed

his game developed and matured until about 3 years before he retired..he was always studying and borrowing moves from guards...and perimeter players


Basketball is a team game, so if other team is better than yours generally you lose....see jerry west ,wilt coming up short often as examples....
once Dream put it all together....and had fearless clutch shooters in abundance....Rockets won rings..

[get these NETS]

"Problem is, he ain't no terrorist."

Wilt played like 12 games that year and he wasn't supposed to be back from knee surgery that year. Back then knee surgery was usually career ending. Wilt had just come off 45 points and 27 rebounds in game six and it seemed to have taxed him.


Wilt was playing like 28 games in a season against Russell and Thurmond both of which are the highest level of defense there is.
Wow, you really aren't a terrorist!

I do think he was the most resourceful person in the paint. He could go into an infinite bag of tricks to score.


Wilt wiped his ass with Russell.........

Thurmond was more likely to give Wilt problems because of strength and size.

thanks for educating me about why Wilt didn't score 80 points on hobbled Willis Reed in deciding game.

those other HOF centers that are being mentioned came about during second half of Wilt's career and I'd bet that his numbers before their arrival are ridiculous.


no disrespect to Wilt.....just saying

[REACTION]

Shaquille O'Neal

[imnew09]

Timmy with his bank shot!

[get these NETS]

Timmy with his bank shot!

during the NETS..Spurs finals

Deke shut down Duncan for key stretches....Duncan is so versatile that he just stepped further away and shot Dikembe's eyes out, but I'm saying

[BoutPractice]

Shaq is the boring but true answer.
You can triple team him, foul the heck out of him, he'll still get his 30 on 60% shooting.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Shaq and his elbow :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[bmulls]

3 pages in and not a single mention of Dirk?

:facepalm

[roffie]

shaq attack

[roffie]

3 pages in and not a single mention of Dirk?

:facepalm

yes but he's definitely not at the top.

[KG215]

Hakeem swept him 4-0

Next!!!

:confusedshrug:

Shaq still averaged 28.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg on .595 shooting in the series.

The only category Hakeem bested him in was scoring, but did so by shooting .483 from the floor. Not saying Shaq owned Hakeem, but Shaq wasn't the problem that series. Oh, and that was 22 year old Shaq going against 32 year old peak Hakeem.

[kenny817]

So Dirk gets no love?


SMFH

[Rojogaqu11]

Rondo.
/thread

I agree. Nobody guards him.

[NugzHeat3]

:confusedshrug:

Shaq still averaged 28.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 6.3 apg, 2.5 bpg on .595 shooting in the series.

The only category Hakeem bested him in was scoring, but did so by shooting .483 from the floor. Not saying Shaq owned Hakeem, but Shaq wasn't the problem that series. Oh, and that was 22 year old Shaq going against 32 year old peak Hakeem.
You didn't list the sizeable difference between their turnovers and steals which was big because Shaq's turnovers often led to easy fastbreaks because the majority were out of passes out of double teams though he did have a couple of offensive fouls + traveling violations.

Oh and not to mention all the intangibles that can't be measured like Shaq's poor transition defense though Orlando was horrible in getting back in general or situations where the game was already out of reach and Shaq's stats won't have much of an impact on the game like the second half of game 2 for instance or Hakeem was often used on the perimeter to space the floor to take Shaq out of the paint which benefited his teammates allowing them to drive to the lane without a shot blocking threat.

[StateOfMind12]

Shaq
Kareem
Jordan

should be the top 3 and in any order. I would like to throw a shout out to Dirk as well since he has been getting no love.

[CavaliersFTW]

Shaq
Kareem
Jordan

should be the top 3 and in any order. I would like to throw a shout out to Dirk as well since he has been getting no love.
Any of these guys ever average 50ppg? :lol

[StateOfMind12]

Any of these guys ever average 50ppg? :lol
Pace... but Wilt is up there as well, I just didn't mention him because he played in the 50s and 60s. I usually don't count anything before the 80s/ABA-NBA merger to be honest. :oldlol:

[bmulls]

Any of these guys ever average 50ppg? :lol

I averaged 50ppg when I played on an 8 foot hoop in my back yard against my little brothers friends. This is more or less equal to Wilt.

[KG215]

You didn't list the sizeable difference between their turnovers and steals which was big because Shaq's turnovers often led to easy fastbreaks because the majority were out of passes out of double teams though he did have a couple of offensive fouls + traveling violations.

Oh and not to mention all the intangibles that can't be measured like Shaq's poor transition defense though Orlando was horrible in getting back in general or situations where the game was already out of reach and Shaq's stats won't have much of an impact on the game like the second half of game 2 for instance or Hakeem was often used on the perimeter to space the floor to take Shaq out of the paint which benefited his teammates allowing them to drive to the lane without a shot blocking threat.

Hakeem was the best player on the floor that entire series. I'm not disputing that. I should've been more clear but, it seems that over time, this myth that Hakeem completely shut Shaq down and owned him in the 1995 Finals has grown to out of hand proportions on ISH. I understand and know Hakeem had a larger impact on the series, and Shaq had a couple of games where he didn't do much in the 1st half. Game one specifically comes to mind; I recall Hakeem tearing Shaq a new one in the first half of that game.

I need to go back and re-watch that series. I've only caught a game here and there if it's been replayed on NBA TV or if I ran across it on Youtube, and it's been a few years.

[KG215]

Any of these guys ever average 50ppg? :lol

Not trying to knock Wilt's 50 ppg season, nor am I saying any of those guys would average 50 ppg in the 60's, but you know as well as I do that Wilt's 50 ppg season would translate to something less in the era of those three guys. It's not as simple as just using "did any of those guys ever average 50 ppg" as an argument.

With that said, I don't know how anyone can't have Wilt at or near the top of their list. As much as I love Jordan and know how unstoppable he was in his prime, I still ahve a hard time putting him above the best offensive centers of all-time.

[CavaliersFTW]

Pace... but Wilt is up there as well, I just didn't mention him because he played in the 50s and 60s. I usually don't count anything before the 80s/ABA-NBA merger to be honest. :oldlol:
50's? Wilt played in the 60's and 70's... damn people really don't know what happened in the league before the 80's haha

[NugzHeat3]

I will admit, and from what I can remember of the series, Hakeem was the best player on the floor. I'm not disputing that. I should've been more clear but, it seems that over time, this myth that Hakeem completely shut Shaq down and owned him in the 1995 Finals has grown to out of hand proportions on ISH. I understand and know Hakeem had a larger impact on the series, and Shaq had a couple of games where he didn't do much in the 1st half. Game one specifically comes to mind; I recall Hakeem tearing Shaq a new one in the first half of that game).

I need to go back and re-watch that series. I've only caught a game here and there if it's been replayed on NBA TV or if I ran across it on Youtube, and it's been a few years.
I'm not saying he owned him or anything along those lines. It's just that the way you presented the numbers is misrepresentative because it paints the picture that they were roughly equal. That along with the fact that your numbers were incomplete because you stated that Hakeem only had an edge in was scoring when in fact he has a solid edge in steals and turnovers.

Also, I think you're mistaking game 1 with game 2. Game 2 was the one where Hakeem had a 22 pt first half and they built a huge lead by halftime and nearly put the game out of reach by then.

[riseagainst]

50's? Wilt played in the 60's and 70's... damn people really don't know what happened in the league before the 80's haha

he entered the league in 1959 thought, so technically he played in the 50s.

[CavaliersFTW]

Not trying to knock Wilt's 50 ppg season, nor am I saying any of those guys would average 50 ppg in the 60's, but you know as well as I do that Wilt's 50 ppg season would translate to something less in the era of those three guys. It's not as simple as just using "did any of those guys ever average 50 ppg" as an argument.

With that said, I don't know how anyone can't have Wilt at or near the top of their list. As much as I love Jordan and know how unstoppable he was in his prime, I still ahve a hard time putting him above the best offensive centers of all-time.
Obviously I know it isn't a direct translation, I was just making a point - the point being to put him on the list. Esp if Kareem is on there. Both Kareem and Wilt played against the same center crop since there was plenty of overlap between when they played, and Kareem never sh*t on those guys quite like Wilt did. (For example... Wilt avgd 53ppg against Walt Belamy in his peak... In Kareem's peak seasons he prob only avged ~35ppg aginst the same guy)

[CavaliersFTW]

he entered the league in 1959 thought, so technically he played in the 50s.
1959-60 season so 3 months in the 50's vs 10 years in the 60s and 4 years in the 70s and we should all now consider him a 50's era player? :facepalm :oldlol:

[riseagainst]

1959-60 season so 3 months in the 50's vs 10 years in the 60s and 4 years in the 70s and we should all now consider him a 50's era player? :facepalm :oldlol:

i was being sarcastic, but ok.

[CavaliersFTW]

i was being sarcastic, but ok.
woops sarcasm never translates well over the internet, my bad lol

[KG215]

I'm not saying he owned him or anything along those lines. It's just that the way you presented the numbers is misrepresentative because it paints the picture that they were roughly equal. That along with the fact that your numbers were incomplete because you stated that Hakeem only had an edge in was scoring when in fact he has a solid edge in steals and turnovers.

Also, I think you're mistaking game 1 with game 2. Game 2 was the one where Hakeem had a 22 pt first half and they built a huge lead by halftime and nearly put the game out of reach by then.

It probably was game two. Didn't Hakeem come out and drop 10-12 in the first quarter of game one while holding Shaq scoreless or like two points? That specific game stands out the most because it seemed like it kind of set a tone for the entire series. I know the Magic should've won game one at the end, but I remember Hakeem coming out like a man possessed to start the series.

It was ignorant of me to just post the raw numbers and not put them in context. It was just to point out, like I said, that a 22 year old Shaq still had a good series, because some people on ISH (not you) seem to think Shaq was awful.

[jongib369]

Obviously I know it isn't a direct translation, I was just making a point - the point being to put him on the list. Esp if Kareem is on there. Both Kareem and Wilt played against the same center crop since there was plenty of overlap between when they played, and Kareem never sh*t on those guys quite like Wilt did. (For example... Wilt avgd 53ppg against Walt Belamy in his peak... In Kareem's peak seasons he prob only avged ~35ppg aginst the same guy)


:bowdown:

[Smoke117]

Playing by the rules...Jordan. Otherwise...Shaq. Everyone always says how much Shaq got hacked, but it was basically a double edged sword. He gave as much as he took. Half the shit he did down low was an offensive foul and frankly he would have been in major foul trouble or otherwise fouled out of games many a time if they actually called them on him regularly. He would have been affected quicker than the defense would have been if the fouls were called on both fairly. Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon and Kevin Mchale were dominating with skill and not being a bruiser who was basically fouling the opposing team on his way to a bucket.

[Owl]

Some ideas here
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.570&c2stat=pts_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=20&c3stat=pts_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=18&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp

I made the criteria quite loose so I didn't miss out on someone who was either an epic scorer who wasn't quite efficient enough or vice versa.

With tighter criteria
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=&year_max=&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.585&c2stat=pts_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=23&c3stat=pts_per_g&c3comp=gt&c3val=18&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=pts_per_mp

Dantley might have as good a claim as any, though era undoubtedly helps those numbers.

Also this method disadvantages 50s and 60s scorers like Mikan or Sharman, or Chamberlain, Robertson, West or Baylor. All (except perhaps Baylor) were very efficient by the standard of their times, which is the only fair standard.

[NugzHeat3]

It probably was game two. Didn't Hakeem come out and drop 10-12 in the first quarter of game one while holding Shaq scoreless or like two points?

It was ignorant of me to just post the raw numbers and not put them in context. It was just to point out, like I said, that a 22 year old Shaq still had a good series, because some people on ISH (not you) seem to think Shaq was awful.
Yeah. I agree.

Just estimating how good each of them were on a scale of 1-100, it'd be something like a 90 for Hakeem and a 85 for Shaq. It wasn't an outright domination like Hakeem on Ewing or Hakeem on Robinson for example. Shaq was merely outplayed and doesn't take any blame for the loss in my book because he did his thing.

In game 1, I remember Hakeem often being matched up with Grant in the first quarter because they didn't want to risk Shaq getting in foul trouble. I'm not sure if he scored 10-12 pts but I remember him doing fairly well vs Grant. He didn't do much to stop Shaq early on though. He had a couple of dunks on him and got deep position in the paint. Game 2 was the one where Hakeem drew 2 fouls on Shaq in the first quarter and exploded for a big first half while Shaq had 10 pts on 3/10 shooting iirc.

[Pointguard]

Wilt wiped his ass with Russell.........

Thurmond was more likely to give Wilt problems because of strength and size.

thanks for educating me about why Wilt didn't score 80 points on hobbled Willis Reed in deciding game.

those other HOF centers that are being mentioned came about during second half of Wilt's career and I'd bet that his numbers before their arrival are ridiculous.

no disrespect to Wilt.....just saying

In a running game, which is what the game was, the best center defender of all time would be Russell anyway. Wilt would have outran any center because his endurance was freakish. Thurmond's muscle game would have been out finessed. Wilt had a Timmy D bank shot to boot. Only Shaq had similar strength. I just think Wilt would have had more natural advantages than any other center (top two or three among centers in skill, energy, speed, resourcfulness, strength, athletism, endurance, creativity, fundamentals). With Wilt you could emply a running game or a post game. Hakeem was the most creative. Shaq the most overwhelming. Kareem the most unstoppable shot. Different flavors for different team constructs.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

skyhook

[KG215]

Yeah. I agree.

Just estimating how good each of them were on a scale of 1-100, it'd be something like a 90 for Hakeem and a 85 for Shaq. It wasn't an outright domination like Hakeem on Ewing or Hakeem on Robinson for example. Shaq was merely outplayed and doesn't take any blame for the loss in my book because he did his thing.

In game 1, I remember Hakeem often being matched up with Grant in the first quarter because they didn't want to risk Shaq getting in foul trouble. I'm not sure if he scored 10-12 pts but I remember him doing fairly well vs Grant. He didn't do much to stop Shaq early on though. He had a couple of dunks on him and got deep position in the paint. Game 2 was the one where Hakeem drew 2 fouls on Shaq in the first quarter and exploded for a big first half while Shaq had 10 pts on 3/10 shooting iirc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKir54uGiWA

You're right. Shaq got two early fouls and had to sit most of the first quarter. It's been too long since I've watched any of that series; some of the games and quarters have kind of run together and gotten a little hazy. I need to see if I can find full games somewhere.

You seem to be an Hakeem guy, but would you take 1999-2002 Shaq or 1992-1995 Hakeem to build a team around?

[boxclever]

Shaq, Shaq & Shaq

[Freedom Kid7]

Shaq comes to mind
Hakeem comes to mind
First three peat Jordan comes to mind.

Of those, I might have to say Shaq. His offensive prowess was that of an obese wrecking ball: it's inevitable, and get out of the way or else you'd get hurt. Hakeem's game was more defined, but I'd say Shaq's offense was more crushing. I have a difficult time putting Jordan as unguardable because of the Jordan rules, but his three peat he was pretty invincible

[get these NETS]

there were seasons where there was NO possible way to defend Thunder Dan Majerle or Bernard King, either

Dan because of his unlimited shooting range..and King because of his shooting range and repertoire of moves.

you can't pick up a defender at halfcourt the entire game

[Timmy D for MVP]

Dirk has to be very near the top as far as pure unguardability when he's on.

If you told a coach he had 24 hours to come up with a game plan to cover a 7 footer who can move and is a killer shooter everywhere on the floor, but is still big and strong enough to post up, that coach will likely say: "**** it, Imma just go golfing."

He can shoot over the top of anybody, you can't put him on the line, and he's turned into a cold blooded killer.

His wrong footed fade with the leg kick for space is up there with the other literally unguardable moves when it's dropping. Nothing you can do but just hope he misses.

[Round Mound]

Shaq and Barkley among bigmen (close by Kareem and Wilt and 2nd fiddle Kevin McHale).

Both Shaq and Barkley had the Highest 2-Point FG% As Focal Scorers of All Time

[get these NETS]

Dirk has to be very near the top as far as pure unguardability when he's on.

If you told a coach he had 24 hours to come up with a game plan to cover a 7 footer who can move and is a killer shooter everywhere on the floor, but is still big and strong enough to post up, that coach will likely say: "**** it, Imma just go golfing."

He can shoot over the top of anybody, you can't put him on the line, and he's turned into a cold blooded killer.

His wrong footed fade with the leg kick for space is up there with the other literally unguardable moves when it's dropping. Nothing you can do but just hope he misses.
last year...2011..I think Collison for OKC played the best defense I've ever seen on Dirk....don't remember how many games or quarters he did it, but he neutralized Dirk for key stretches....and when someone else started guarding Dirk, he was lighting them up as usual.


Dirk is an unguardable player essentially.... he doesn't make the shortlists because......until last year....this unguardable guy would vanish in big stretches making his unguardability irrelevant..

[Pointguard]

Dirk has to be very near the top as far as pure unguardability when he's on.

If you told a coach he had 24 hours to come up with a game plan to cover a 7 footer who can move and is a killer shooter everywhere on the floor, but is still big and strong enough to post up, that coach will likely say: "**** it, Imma just go golfing."

He can shoot over the top of anybody, you can't put him on the line, and he's turned into a cold blooded killer.

His wrong footed fade with the leg kick for space is up there with the other literally unguardable moves when it's dropping. Nothing you can do but just hope he misses.
Why not Durant? Durant is rarely ever off. He's got crazy durability and is more efficient with a better handle.

[28renyoy]

Shaq, all you can do is hope that he misses free throws and even then he's scoring on 50% of possessions

Durant, the most efficient volume scorer in MBA history, that's regular and playoffs

[Freedom Kid7]

Why not Durant? Durant is rarely ever off. He's got crazy durability and is more efficient with a better handle.
Dirk has more assists than turnovers throughout his career
Durant doesn't. I'm fairly certain Durant can be better than Dirk one day, but he certainly doesn't have the best handles and the moment.

[NumberSix]

Either Shaq, Wilt or Kareem. Nobody else is even in the conversation.

[Odinn]

Shaq, Kareem or Jordan.

Sorry but Hakeem was not on their level when it comes to being unguardable.

[Pointguard]

The big thing in Wilt's favor was that he had a 10 year span where he did go off for 60 points. 40ppg over seven years is a long time for being unstoppable.

Kobe and Shaq had about a 7 year span where they could get 50.

I think Durant will be the most consistent unstoppable scoring force.

Lebron was rarely ever really guarded - minus a head trip here and there.

Jordan is a separate entity as he wasn't as explosive but in general was unstoppable - undescribable.

[Timmy D for MVP]

Why not Durant? Durant is rarely ever off. He's got crazy durability and is more efficient with a better handle.

The reason I didn't put Durant is because Dirk can use his size better at this point.

And I agree that it took him a while to develop into it but I'm talking just from a pure unguardable formula standpoint Dirk's abilities are top notch.

[NugzHeat3]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKir54uGiWA

You're right. Shaq got two early fouls and had to sit most of the first quarter. It's been too long since I've watched any of that series; some of the games and quarters have kind of run together and gotten a little hazy. I need to see if I can find full games somewhere.

You seem to be an Hakeem guy, but would you take 1999-2002 Shaq or 1992-1995 Hakeem to build a team around?
I'm sure that series used to be on youtube. Not sure if it still is but they took a lot of channels down recently for copyright infringement.

I'd side with Hakeem strictly looking at the years you listed because I think very highly of his peak (not that Shaq's peak is anything to scoff at) because he leaves nothing at the table, does everything at a high level, is a better defender overall, cannot be exploited, provides great leadership and intangibles as well as having an uncanny ability to raise his game at any level and moment when required. Some of the ridiculously tough competition he beat with the adversity they faced with his play being the primary reason behind those wins also sways me a bit. It's a good look when you're winning when you're flat-out not supposed to which is an intangible quality to me. That being said, there's a good argument for Shaq and I won't have any issue if you side with him.

Shaq was obviously better offensively (more dominant scorer, puts more pressure on opposing defenses) and I think the Lakers' ORtg reflects that since he was the centerpiece of those offenses and it's not like support was anything great either especially in 2000 as the 2000 Lakers were lacking in bench play and had awful spacing around a dominant post-player that commanded so much attention (easy to double and triple team if shooters don't keep defenses honest like Portland having Pippen help off Harper and Sheed helping off Green) so Shaq carrying them to a top 5 offense makes it all the more special and helps put his offensive ability in perspective. There's other examples too but you have to go beyond this 3 year stretch such as 1994 where Orlando had a top 3 offense primarily due to Shaq's dominance as they were not that great relative to the rest of the league.

He's probably not as portable because of Hakeem having an edge in versatility with a perimeter game so you have to keep that mind when building a team because Hakeem's perimeter game can not only space the floor giving perimeter players room to operate, it can also take away a shot blocking C from the paint to help out. It probably wouldn't matter much if you build a team that could cater to Shaq's strengths and cover up a couple of flaws. Quick perimeter defenders to help out on the perimeter would be necessary since his PnR defense leaves a lot to be desired, great perimeter shooters that also know how to entry pass and space themselves, a workhorse PF that's good in a complimentary role like prime Horace Grant, Charles Oakley, AC Green ect and a typical secondary star that could relieve some of the pressure sucking the defense in, contribute with scoring/playmaking and be your go-to guy in desperate situations where you need a bucket like a 2000 Kobe would work fine.

One thing that also factors in for me is how much you'd need a coach/staff like Phil and Tex to maximize Shaq's game in regards to his effort/motivation on defense.

With Hakeem, you need a coach that'll run an offense through him and that's that. It's simple enough but it was actually an issue before Rudy T took over. He wasn't much of an Xs and Os guy, more of a great motivator + solid in regards to game management and stuck to his schemes but he wasn't Phil Jackson and I'm not sure a guy like Shaq would've had as much respect for him as he had for Phil.

Shaq's motivation + effort on defense wasn't as great as Hakeem's except for years like 2000 and the 2001 playoff stretch where he was more motivated giving more effort on PnRs and the perimeter defenders funneled defenders to Shaq and their paint defense was elite but even then, he's not as good as Hakeem defensively who's a probably one of the top 2 defenders in the past 22 years along with David Robinson.

There's other instances that also impact Shaq's defense such as reporting in around 370-380 lbs in 2002 (clearly overweight) which probably impacted his mobility on defense and though this isn't part of the stretch, 1999 and 2003 are also examples where his defense wasn't as good as it could've been. The 2001 regular season is also a good example especially early on because of the lack of chemistry the team had.

[EricGordon23]

Prime Gilbert was pretty hard to guard.

[eliteballer]

Shaq and its not a debate.

[Sarcastic]

Hakeem is kind of overrated in his retirement.

[Owl]

The big thing in Wilt's favor was that he had a 10 year span where he did go off for 60 points. 40ppg over seven years is a long time for being unstoppable.

Kobe and Shaq had about a 7 year span where they could get 50.

I think Durant will be the most consistent unstoppable scoring force.

Lebron was rarely ever really guarded - minus a head trip here and there.

Jordan is a separate entity as he wasn't as explosive but in general was unstoppable - undescribable.
Shaq got 53 in 93-94, his last 50+ game was in 2000. But he did get 48 in 2003 despite splitting shots with Kobe (he did so on 24 field goal attempts). He also got 45 for Phoenix in 2009, so I think it really depended on his role on the team but the capacity to go off remained at least from the start of his career to leaving LA.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=1993&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_c=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=45&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts

[Pointguard]

Shaq got 53 in 93-94, his last 50+ game was in 2000. But he did get 48 in 2003 despite splitting shots with Kobe (he did so on 24 field goal attempts). He also got 45 for Phoenix in 2009, so I think it really depended on his role on the team but the capacity to go off remained at least from the start of his career to leaving LA.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pgl_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=&match=game&year_min=1993&year_max=&age_min=0&age_max=99&team_id=&opp_id=&is_playoffs=&round_is_ec1=Y&round_is_ecs=Y&round_is_ecf=Y&round_is_wc1=Y&round_is_wcs=Y&round_is_wcf=Y&round_is_fin=Y&game_num_type=&game_num_min=&game_num_max=&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&is_starter=&is_active=&is_hof=&pos_is_c=Y&c1stat=pts&c1comp=gt&c1val=45&c2stat=&c2comp=gt&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=pts
Thanks Owl I was going off the top of my head. Yes, a ten year span for Shaq is a testiment to his power game. Shaq is definitely up there at the top for being unguardable - hard to put anybody above him.

If I went by roles, tho, Wilt could have averaged 40ppg for 12 years. Wilt averaged 40 ppg for 7 years before he hit his physical/mental prime, or the equivalent to Shaq's prime.

[Micku]

Kevin Mchale is known for being extremely hard to guard. Players and coaches alike say that he is very hard to stop and always a problem. He destroys the other team on the offensive end.

Shaq of course. They would have to put the whole team on him sometimes or just foul him. You can't guard him man to man.

Wilt because he was too big and too athletic.

Kareem because of his height and polish of the post moves.

And prime Barkley because of his strength and his quickness. He is tough to guard also.

[RaininTwos]

Shaq and his elbow :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
THIS:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[FKAri]

Why not Durant? Durant is rarely ever off. He's got crazy durability and is more efficient with a better handle.

See 2011 Western Conference Finals.

[sipitri]

Honorable mention: Dirk.
You can't guard his shot in any way (especially the fade away), defend him and hope for the best
Also Yao had some hook shot not guardable.

[mark]

Who was the toughest guy to cover in history?

In my eyes:

http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/lg_olajuwon_all.jpg

:bowdown:


Ricky Davis

[mark]

Honorable mention: Dirk.
You can't guard his shot in any way (especially the fade away), defend him and hope for the best
Also Yao had some hook shot not guardable.


Ricky Davis is much better than Dirk and Yao

[jlauber]

Obviously I know it isn't a direct translation, I was just making a point - the point being to put him on the list. Esp if Kareem is on there. Both Kareem and Wilt played against the same center crop since there was plenty of overlap between when they played, and Kareem never sh*t on those guys quite like Wilt did. (For example... Wilt avgd 53ppg against Walt Belamy in his peak... In Kareem's peak seasons he prob only avged ~35ppg aginst the same guy)

Kareem faced a declining Bellamy from the '69-70 season thru Bellamy's last season in 73-74 (He played one game in the 74-75 season and retired.) In approximately 25 career H2H's, Kareem's three highest games against Bellamy were 40, 39 an 35 points. He had several more in the low 30's. Overall, he probably averaged about 28 ppg or so against Bellamy. However, Bellamy was outscoring him in some of their H2H's, even as late as that last season.

How about Wilt vs. Bellamy? We can start with their first game. Bellamy was a rookie who was averaging about 30 ppg when the two met for the first time. As they lined up for the opening tip, Chamberlain scowled at Bellamy, and told him that he (Bellamy) would not score a point in this game. At halftime Bellamy had not scored a point (and he, himself claimed that Wilt had blocked NINE of his shots.) At the start of the second half, Wilt smiled, and said, "I will let you play now Walter." Chamberlain outscored Bellamy in that first game, 52-14.

The two met in 20 games in the 61-62 and 62-63 seasons (Bellamy's career best season's statistically.) In the 61-62 season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 52.7 ppg in their ten H2H games, including THREE of 60+, and a HIGH game of 73 (in which he also grabbed 36 rebounds.) In the 62-63 season, Wilt AVERAGED 43.7 ppg in their 10 H2H games, including a 61 point game.

So, in Bellamy's first two seasons, and covering 20 straight H2H games, Chamberlain AVERAGED 48.2 ppg.

I just did some quick research (for me) after that. In the 63-64 season, Wilt pummelled Bellamy with multiple 40+ point games, and a high of 49. At oe point in that season, the two met in three straight games, on Dec 10th, 13th, and 15th. Wilt outscored Bellamy in those three games by margins of 49-36; 43-19 (outshooting Bellamy 18-36 to 7-17); and 44-5 (!)

In the 64-65 season, Chamberlain continued to slaughter Bellamy, including two games of 56 and 53 points.

In the 65-66 season, the two went at it ten times. Wilt held an 8-1-1 margin in therir scoring H2H's, including one game by a 50-26 margin. BTW, in that same season, Chamberlain faced Nate Thurmond in nine games, and outscored him by 8-1 (including margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and a staggering 45-13 margin.) Keep in mind that Kareem faced Thurmond in 43 career H2H's, and his HIGH game against him was 34 points. Oh, and Chamberlain also faced Russell in 14 H2H games that season, as well, outscoring him in 13 of them, as well as outrebounding him in 10. His scoring margins over Russell were as much as 30-10, 27-6, 37-14, 32-8, 29-3, and a playoff game margin of 46-18.

Wilt cut back his scoring in the 66-67 season, but how about these numbers against the Bellamy-Reed duo that season? In their nine H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on, get this... a .709 FG%!

In the 67-68 first round of the playoffs, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, per game 25.3 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounded Bellamy, per game, 24.2 ppg to 16.0 rpp; and outshot Bellamy, overall, .584 to .421 (BTW, Bellamy shot .541 against the league during the regular season.)

So, as you can see, a PRIME Chamberlain just SHELLED a PRIME Bellamy.



Wilt wiped his ass with Russell.........

Thurmond was more likely to give Wilt problems because of strength and size.

thanks for educating me about why Wilt didn't score 80 points on hobbled Willis Reed in deciding game.

those other HOF centers that are being mentioned came about during second half of Wilt's career and I'd bet that his numbers before their arrival are ridiculous.


no disrespect to Wilt.....just saying

How about this? In his LAST two seasons, a 35 and 36 year old Chamberlain faced off against a 23-24 year old 6-11 260 lb. (HOFer) Bob Lanier in ELEVEN straight games.

We are missing some data from ONE of those 11 games, but here were Wilt's numbers in those 11 STRAIGHT games:


71-72

1. 26 pts. 15 rebs. 11-14
2. 31 pts. 31 rebs. 15-22
3. 29 pts. 18 rebs. 13-17
4. 30 pts. 21 rebs. 14-18
5. 28 pts. 14 rebs. 10-13

144 pts. 89 rebs. 63-84

28.8 ppg 17.8 rpg .750 FG%

72-73

1. 22 pts. 19 rebs. 10-12
2. 21 pts. 21 rebs. 9-10
3. 14 pts 9 rebs 7-8
4. 18 pts unknown unknown
5. 22 pts. 14 rebs. 11-15
6. 22 pts. 13 rebs. 9-10

119 pts. in six games
76 rebs in five games
46-55 in five games

19.8 ppg 15.2 rpg .836 FG% (!)


11 games


23.9 ppg

10 games

16.5 rpg

10 games


109-139 .784 FG% (!)



Now, to Lanier's credit, he had some big games against Chamberain, as well. BUT, this was a Wilt in his LAST TWO seasons, and in years in which he averaged 14.8 ppg and 13.2 ppg.

As a sidenote, some here have claimed that Kareem's greatest season was in 76-77. Interesting that BOTH Lanier AND Gilmore outscored Kareem in their H2H's that season.


As for the Willis Reed comments...

How about this? In Wilt's 64-65 season, he faced Reed in NINE H2H games, and AVERAGED 40.1 ppg against him. Included in those nine games were games in which Chamberain outscored Reed by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and an astonishing 58-28 margin.

After that season, Reed was paired with Bellamy, so the two did not battle H2H against each other until the last half of the 68-69 season. AND, in that season, in their six H2H games, Chamberlain outscored Reed in FOUR of them, including their first encounter as a center vs center, by a margin of 31-13. Overall, a healthy and near prime Wilt outscored Reed in those six H2H's by an average margin of 24 ppg to 15 ppg.

Incidently was their an "anti-Wilt" bias in the MVP balloting that season? Wilt led his team to the second best record in the NBA, at 55-27. Only the MVP Wes Unseld's team had a better record at 57-25. However, in their six H2H's, Chamberlain heavily outscored Unseld and even pounded him in one game by outscoring him, 25-4, while also outrebounding him, 38-9. And, Wilt's Lakers went 3-3 against the Bullets.

I already gave you Wilt's domination of Reed in their six H2H meetings in that 68-69 season. Not only that, but Wilt's Lakers went 5-1 against Reed's 54-28 Knicks.

How about against Russell? Chamberlain outscored Russell in ALL SIX H2H's, and went 5-0-1 in their rebounding H2H's. Included were games in which Wilt outscored Russell, 35-5, and another game in which he outrebounded Russell by a 42-18 margin. Oh, and 55-27 Lakers beat Russell's 48-34 Celtics in four of their six H2H's, including a 108-73 nationally televised beatdown in BOSTON.

Guess what...all three of those guys finished ahad of Wilt in the MVP voting.

Of course, being shunned in the MVP balloting was nothing new for Chamberlain. In his historic 61-62 season, in which he averaged 50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and shot .506, he finished second behind Russell (18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and .457 shooting), in a season in which Wilt AVERAGED 39.7 ppg against Russell in ten H2H's.

In his 62-63 season, in perhaps the greatest individual season in NBA history, Chamberlain LED the NBA in 15 of their 22 statistical categories, including scoring (44.8 ppg...and Baylor was a distant second at 34.0 ppg); rebounding, at 24.3 rpg; and FG% at a then record .528. He even led the NBA in Win Shares, and hisPER of 31.8 is the all-time record. Where did he finish in the MVP balloting? SEVENTH. He even finished behind Red Kerr. Which is interesting, since he outscored Kerr, on AVERAGE, in their eight H2H's, by a 43-19 ppg margin. Included were games in which Wilt outscored Kerr by margins of 61-21, and get this... 70-14. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain outscored Russell in their nine H2H games, by an overall margin of 38 ppg to 14 ppg (with three games of 40+, including a 50 point game.)

And then Wilt took that same cast of clowns roster to a 48-32 record the next year, and a trip to the Finals. He did so while leadng the league in scoring at 36.9 ppg, second in rebounding at 22.3 rpg, and second in FG% at .524. Oscar, playing with Lucas, Twyman, and Embry and going 55-25, won the MVP.

Back to the Kareem, and the centers that he and Wilt both faced in their careers. In the 68-69 season,which was the year before Kareem would come into the NBA, Chamberlain hung games of 60 and 66 on Connie Dierking and Jim Fox. Kareem would faced both of those guys several times in his career, and he never approached those games (Kareems career high game was 55 points.) He also faced a Darrall Imhoff on several occasions...where was HIS 100 point game against him (Or even a 56 point game, which Chamerlain hung on Imhoff the very next time the two met after that 100 point game...and a game in which Imhoff received a standing ovation.)

So, how come Kareem could only score a high of 34 points against Thurmond, in 43 H2H's, and yet a PRIME Chameberlain had 11 straight games against Thurmond in which he averaged 30 ppg, and with games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even 45? Or that Kareem had three straight playoff series against Thurmond of shooting .486, .405, and .428; while Wilt also faced Thurmond in three post-season series, and outshot Nate by margins of .500 - .392; .550 to .398; and a staggering .560 to .343 margin (and in a season in which Thurmond finished second in the MVP balloting...the highest of his career.)

Where were Kareem's THREE 50+ point games against Reed? Where were Kareem's FOUR 60+ games against Bellamy?

[RoundMoundOfReb]

One of this guys

Shaq
Hakeem
Kareem
this + wilt.

[jlauber]

Kareem faced a declining Bellamy from the '69-70 season thru Bellamy's last season in 73-74 (He played one game in the 74-75 season and retired.) In approximately 25 career H2H's, Kareem's three highest games against Bellamy were 40, 39 an 35 points. He had several more in the low 30's. Overall, he probably averaged about 28 ppg or so against Bellamy. However, Bellamy was outscoring him in some of their H2H's, even as late as that last season.

How about Wilt vs. Bellamy? We can start with their first game. Bellamy was a rookie who was averaging about 30 ppg when the two met for the first time. As they lined up for the opening tip, Chamberlain scowled at Bellamy, and told him that he (Bellamy) would not score a point in this game. At halftime Bellamy had not scored a point (and he, himself claimed that Wilt had blocked NINE of his shots.) At the start of the second half, Wilt smiled, and said, "I will let you play now Walter." Chamberlain outscored Bellamy in that first game, 52-14.

The two met in 20 games in the 61-62 and 62-63 seasons (Bellamy's career best season's statistically.) In the 61-62 season, Chamberlain AVERAGED 52.7 ppg in their ten H2H games, including THREE of 60+, and a HIGH game of 73 (in which he also grabbed 36 rebounds.) In the 62-63 season, Wilt AVERAGED 43.7 ppg in their 10 H2H games, including a 61 point game.

So, in Bellamy's first two seasons, and covering 20 straight H2H games, Chamberlain AVERAGED 48.2 ppg.

I just did some quick research (for me) after that. In the 63-64 season, Wilt pummelled Bellamy with multiple 40+ point games, and a high of 49. At oe point in that season, the two met in three straight games, on Dec 10th, 13th, and 15th. Wilt outscored Bellamy in those three games by margins of 49-36; 43-19 (outshooting Bellamy 18-36 to 7-17); and 44-5 (!)

In the 64-65 season, Chamberlain continued to slaughter Bellamy, including two games of 56 and 53 points.

In the 65-66 season, the two went at it ten times. Wilt held an 8-1-1 margin in therir scoring H2H's, including one game by a 50-26 margin. BTW, in that same season, Chamberlain faced Nate Thurmond in nine games, and outscored him by 8-1 (including margins of 33-17, 33-10, 38-15, and a staggering 45-13 margin.) Keep in mind that Kareem faced Thurmond in 43 career H2H's, and his HIGH game against him was 34 points. Oh, and Chamberlain also faced Russell in 14 H2H games that season, as well, outscoring him in 13 of them, as well as outrebounding him in 10. His scoring margins over Russell were as much as 30-10, 27-6, 37-14, 32-8, 29-3, and a playoff game margin of 46-18.

Wilt cut back his scoring in the 66-67 season, but how about these numbers against the Bellamy-Reed duo that season? In their nine H2H's, Chamberlain averaged 22.7 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and on, get this... a .709 FG%!

In the 67-68 first round of the playoffs, Chamberlain outscored Bellamy, per game 25.3 ppg to 20.0 ppg; outrebounded Bellamy, per game, 24.2 ppg to 16.0 rpp; and outshot Bellamy, overall, .584 to .421 (BTW, Bellamy shot .541 against the league during the regular season.)

So, as you can see, a PRIME Chamberlain just SHELLED a PRIME Bellamy.




How about this? In his LAST two seasons, a 35 and 36 year old Chamberlain faced off against a 23-24 year old 6-11 260 lb. (HOFer) Bob Lanier in ELEVEN straight games.

We are missing some data from ONE of those 11 games, but here were Wilt's numbers in those 11 STRAIGHT games:



Now, to Lanier's credit, he had some big games against Chamberain, as well. BUT, this was a Wilt in his LAST TWO seasons, and in years in which he averaged 14.8 ppg and 13.2 ppg.

As a sidenote, some here have claimed that Kareem's greatest season was in 76-77. Interesting that BOTH Lanier AND Gilmore outscored Kareem in their H2H's that season.


As for the Willis Reed comments...

How about this? In Wilt's 64-65 season, he faced Reed in NINE H2H games, and AVERAGED 40.1 ppg against him. Included in those nine games were games in which Chamberain outscored Reed by margins of 41-9, 52-23, and an astonishing 58-28 margin.

After that season, Reed was paired with Bellamy, so the two did not battle H2H against each other until the last half of the 68-69 season. AND, in that season, in their six H2H games, Chamberlain outscored Reed in FOUR of them, including their first encounter as a center vs center, by a margin of 31-13. Overall, a healthy and near prime Wilt outscored Reed in those six H2H's by an average margin of 24 ppg to 15 ppg.

Incidently was their an "anti-Wilt" bias in the MVP balloting that season? Wilt led his team to the second best record in the NBA, at 55-27. Only the MVP Wes Unseld's team had a better record at 57-25. However, in their six H2H's, Chamberlain heavily outscored Unseld and even pounded him in one game by outscoring him, 25-4, while also outrebounding him, 38-9. And, Wilt's Lakers went 3-3 against the Bullets.

I already gave you Wilt's domination of Reed in their six H2H meetings in that 68-69 season. Not only that, but Wilt's Lakers went 5-1 against Reed's 54-28 Knicks.

How about against Russell? Chamberlain outscored Russell in ALL SIX H2H's, and went 5-0-1 in their rebounding H2H's. Included were games in which Wilt outscored Russell, 35-5, and another game in which he outrebounded Russell by a 42-18 margin. Oh, and 55-27 Lakers beat Russell's 48-34 Celtics in four of their six H2H's, including a 108-73 nationally televised beatdown in BOSTON.

Guess what...all three of those guys finished ahad of Wilt in the MVP voting.

Of course, being shunned in the MVP balloting was nothing new for Chamberlain. In his historic 61-62 season, in which he averaged 50.4 ppg, 25.7 rpg, and shot .506, he finished second behind Russell (18.9 ppg, 23.6 rpg, and .457 shooting), in a season in which Wilt AVERAGED 39.7 ppg against Russell in ten H2H's.

In his 62-63 season, in perhaps the greatest individual season in NBA history, Chamberlain LED the NBA in 15 of their 22 statistical categories, including scoring (44.8 ppg...and Baylor was a distant second at 34.0 ppg); rebounding, at 24.3 rpg; and FG% at a then record .528. He even led the NBA in Win Shares, and hisPER of 31.8 is the all-time record. Where did he finish in the MVP balloting? SEVENTH. He even finished behind Red Kerr. Which is interesting, since he outscored Kerr, on AVERAGE, in their eight H2H's, by a 43-19 ppg margin. Included were games in which Wilt outscored Kerr by margins of 61-21, and get this... 70-14. Oh, and BTW, Chamberlain outscored Russell in their nine H2H games, by an overall margin of 38 ppg to 14 ppg (with three games of 40+, including a 50 point game.)

And then Wilt took that same cast of clowns roster to a 48-32 record the next year, and a trip to the Finals. He did so while leadng the league in scoring at 36.9 ppg, second in rebounding at 22.3 rpg, and second in FG% at .524. Oscar, playing with Lucas, Twyman, and Embry and going 55-25, won the MVP.

Back to the Kareem, and the centers that he and Wilt both faced in their careers. In the 68-69 season,which was the year before Kareem would come into the NBA, Chamberlain hung games of 60 and 66 on Connie Dierking and Jim Fox. Kareem would faced both of those guys several times in his career, and he never approached those games (Kareems career high game was 55 points.) He also faced a Darrall Imhoff on several occasions...where was HIS 100 point game against him (Or even a 56 point game, which Chamerlain hung on Imhoff the very next time the two met after that 100 point game...and a game in which Imhoff received a standing ovation.)

So, how come Kareem could only score a high of 34 points against Thurmond, in 43 H2H's, and yet a PRIME Chameberlain had 11 straight games against Thurmond in which he averaged 30 ppg, and with games of 30, 33, 34, 34, 38, and even 45? Or that Kareem had three straight playoff series against Thurmond of shooting .486, .405, and .428; while Wilt also faced Thurmond in three post-season series, and outshot Nate by margins of .500 - .392; .550 to .398; and a staggering .560 to .343 margin (and in a season in which Thurmond finished second in the MVP balloting...the highest of his career.)

Where were Kareem's THREE 50+ point games against Reed? Where were Kareem's FOUR 60+ games against Bellamy?


To add to the above...

Kareem faced Dierking in nine H2H games, and his high game was 41 points. I am not going to go thru every one of the Wilt-Dierking H2H's, but we know that he had that 60 point game in the 68-69 season against him (just the year before Kareem arrived on the scene.) But, how about this? In the 69-70 season (when Kareem WAS playing), and before he shredded his knee, Chamberlain hung a 43 point game (on 17-26 shooting) against Dierking...which was also higher than Kareem's best game against him. Incidently, Chamberlain had a 41 point playoff game against Dierking in the '67 playoffs (and in that series, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg...yes a TRIPLE-DOUBLE series...and on .612 shooting from the floor.


Wilt poured in that 66 point game against Fox, in that 68-69 season, and on a record 29-35 shooting (for 60+ point games) performance. Kareem would face Fox in 34 H2H games, and his high game against him was 40 points. Incidently, in Foxs last season, 76-77, he faced a Kareem who somehave claimed was at his peak. In their four H2H's, Kareem outscored him 85-50 (21.2 to 12.5 ppg), with a high game of 33.

Now, keep in mind that the Wilt that pounded Dierking and Fox with those two 60+ point games, was not a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain, either.

[jongib369]

To add to the above...

Kareem faced Dierking in nine H2H games, and his high game was 41 points. I am not going to go thru every one of the Wilt-Dierking H2H's, but we know that he had that 60 point game in the 68-69 season against him (just the year before Kareem arrived on the scene.) But, how about this? In the 69-70 season (when Kareem WAS playing), and before he shredded his knee, Chamberlain hung a 43 point game (on 17-26 shooting) against Dierking...which was also higher than Kareem's best game against him. Incidently, Chamberlain had a 41 point playoff game against Dierking in the '67 playoffs (and in that series, Wilt averaged 28 ppg, 26.5 rpg, 11.0 apg...yes a TRIPLE-DOUBLE series...and on .612 shooting from the floor.


Wilt poured in that 66 point game against Fox, in that 68-69 season, and on a record 29-35 shooting (for 60+ point games) performance. Kareem would face Fox in 34 H2H games, and his high game against him was 40 points. Incidently, in Foxs last season, 76-77, he faced a Kareem who somehave claimed was at his peak. In their four H2H's, Kareem outscored him 85-50 (21.2 to 12.5 ppg), with a high game of 33.

Now, keep in mind that the Wilt that pounded Dierking and Fox with those two 60+ point games, was not a PRIME "scoring" Chamberlain, either.
People are going to hate on you for how long this is but it was really informative! Puts things into perspective on how great of a scorer Wilt was... I'm not knocking Kareem though he is his own separate beast himself

[jlauber]

People are going to hate on you for how long this is but it was really informative! Puts things into perspective on how great of a scorer Wilt was... I'm not knocking Kareem though he is his own separate beast himself

Kareem was a great center. No doubt, but he never dominated his peers the way a prime Chamberlain dominated his.

Kareem was outscored by a prime McAdoo in their H2H's. He was outscored by both Lanier and Gilmore in supposedly Kareem's best season (76-77.) And he was pounded by Moses in the vast majority of their 40 career H2H's. And, in his biggest games and series in the post-season, he often played poorly, or was outplayed.

A Prime Chamberlain just shellacked the NBA. He was outscoring the BEST centers of his era by as much as 20 ppg in their H2H's. He was outshooting and outrebounding all of them, as well, and by HUGE margins. Hell, he was outpassing them, too.

[pauk]

wilt, lebron, jordan, shaq

[Trentknicks]

wilt, lebron, jordan, shaq
:facepalm

[ILLsmak]

to stop shaq.....foul him..put him on the line

And get slapped in the face by his flailing arms.

-Smak

[Living Being]

Man to man it has to be Shaq.

Shaq''s problem, and the problem for any big man, i actually getting the ball. They have to rely on the other players to get them the ball and sometimes some of those players aren't willing passers.
http://katpadi.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/kobe-u-mad.jpg

[Asukal]

Jordan. In his prime there's no way to stop him. :cheers:

[ScarSymmetry]

Wilt - Scoring that much for so many seasons, clearly people struggled immensely to guard him.

Shaq - Consistently fouling someone deliberately in an attempt to limit their scoring impact is not 'guarding' them. If the guy could actually hit his free throws, he would be number one. Would have been scary to see Shaq having to be respected by the defence in regards to teams being hesitant to send him to the line.

[DTreats]

Did someone just say LeBron?

LEBRON?:oldlol:

[scandisk_]

Wilt, Shaq, Kareem and small a small dude named MJ :pimp:

[sekachu]

:facepalm




If the question is "The most unguardable player in fast break" then yes :D

[KOBE143]

Kobe

[The-Legend-24]

Kobe
This guy right here, knows wassup. :applause:

[SuperPippen]

No mention of peak Kobe?

In his prime, and when he was on fire, peak Kobe is possibly the most unguardable perimeter player ever. His 81 point game, amongst other high scoring games, are a testament to that.

He could rain down shots from anywhere on the floor, was quick and athletic enough to get to the rim and finish, and had a wide arsenal of moves.

[TheeBeast]

Even lebron was mentioned before Kobe...

[Rojogaqu11]

http://img1.ranker.com/user_node_img/6398/1000136055/full/yao-ming-rage-face-photo-u1.jpg

[madmax]

Lebron James, Shaq, and Wilt.

:applause: :cheers:
The Holy Trinity of Dominators

[kenny817]

last year...2011..I think Collison for OKC played the best defense I've ever seen on Dirk....don't remember how many games or quarters he did it, but he neutralized Dirk for key stretches....and when someone else started guarding Dirk, he was lighting them up as usual.


Dirk is an unguardable player essentially.... he doesn't make the shortlists because......until last year....this unguardable guy would vanish in big stretches making his unguardability irrelevant..

Dirk's 48 point game in game 1 of the WCF...he was like 9/9 fg's with Collison guarding him. He torched him all series

Collison played the best D on Dirk that I've ever seen (better than Jackson in '07)...and he still had two 40 point games

[scandisk_]

:applause: :cheers:
The Holy Trinity of Dominators

:oldlol:

someone doesn't even belong in there :lol

[ukplayer4]

cant be bothered to go through entire thread but has iverson been mentioned?

[nathanjizzle]

hakeem

[Sakkreth]

Shaq+refs, offensive fouls doesn't exist, travel neither.

Then there is Hakeem obviously, LeBron and Wilt I guess.

[Jax]

wilt, lebron, jordan, shaq
Pretty much this, but Kareem HAS to be on that list.

[Overdrive]

Lebron+refs, offensive fouls doesn't exist, travel neither.


Fixed

[Sakkreth]

Fixed

U mod that Chuckbe is only dominant at chucking ?

[Johnni Gade]

Shaq:)

[lakerspng]

There is only one correct answer and that is shaq. No offense to all the other incredibly dominant players in league history butit isn't close. You Cannot have watched him game in game out in his prime from 99-03 and have any other opinion. He was a one man army. He wrecked everyone, sent people home crying. Whole teams gave up even trying to guard him. The hack-a-shaq was all they had left.

[CavaliersFTW]

There is only one correct answer and that is shaq. No offense to all the other incredibly dominant players in league history butit isn't close. You Cannot have watched him game in game out in his prime from 99-03 and have any other opinion. He was a one man army. He wrecked everyone, sent people home crying. Whole teams gave up even trying to guard him. The hack-a-shaq was all they had left.
If you haven't also watched Wilt in the early 60's or even Kareem in the early 70's than what's the point of your post?

[riseagainst]

why are people mentioning lebron and not jordan? :oldlol:

[magic chiongson]

most unguardable move = jabbar's sky hook

[riseagainst]

No mention of peak Kobe?

In his prime, and when he was on fire, peak Kobe is possibly the most unguardable perimeter player ever. His 81 point game, amongst other high scoring games, are a testament to that.

He could rain down shots from anywhere on the floor, was quick and athletic enough to get to the rim and finish, and had a wide arsenal of moves.

AND THIS.
:bowdown:

[lakerspng]

If you haven't also watched Wilt in the early 60's or even Kareem in the early 70's than what's the point of your post?

You cannot compare the level of competition they faced. Those guys played against guys 6 inches shorter than them on average. Half the guys shaq played were close to his own size. His combination of speed, strength, size, athleticism and aggression was then and still is completely unprecedented.

[CavaliersFTW]

You cannot compare the level of competition they faced. Those guys played against guys 6 inches shorter than them on average. Half the guys shaq played were close to his own size. His combination of speed, strength, size, athleticism and aggression was then and still is completely unprecedented.
Lol I know the competition can't be compared, Kareem in particular faced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition than early '00's Shaq

[lakerspng]

Lol I know, Kareem in particular faced >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> competition than early '00's Shaq
You don't have to convince me about Kareem's greatness I grew up here in la watching showtime. I think he is the greatest basketball player to ever lace them up over the length of his career high school college and pros. But he was never as dominant a force as shaq in his stretch from 99-2003. Even chick hearn said the same thing. Shaq was a freakin monster. Damn shame he never had the personal drive to stay fit and got lazy

[CavaliersFTW]

You don't have to convince me about Kareem's greatness I grew up here in la watching showtime. I think he is the greatest basketball player to ever lace them up over the length of his career high school college and pros. But he was never as dominant a force as shaq in his stretch from 99-2003. Even chick hearn said the same thing. Shaq was a freakin monster. Damn shame he never had the personal drive to stay fit and got lazy
You only know basketball from the 1980's and on your missing a huge chunk to be parading Shaq as the most dominant ever. You've never watched early 70's first-MVP Kareem. Early 70's Kareem is NOT the same animal as Lakers show-time Kareem. If you follow my posts on here you'll know I'm sitting on a huge library of rare NBA archive film from the 60's and early 70's and the footage I have of Kareem in the early 70's is just plain sick - and I know the competition he was facing night in and night out was far superior to the guys Shaq faced.

Example:
http://youtu.be/YVDzzxVE34k?t=3m58s

Example:
http://youtu.be/1pwS6dxlR6g

[get these NETS]

was Shaq more dominant than Moses in his hey day?


Moses had size strength skill and RELENTLESS drive.....

remember, the play isn't over until the defense secures the rebound

[Overdrive]

U mod that Chuckbe is only dominant at chucking ?

Sorry, I don't like Kobe.

[arifgokcen]

You cannot compare the level of competition they faced. Those guys played against guys 6 inches shorter than them on average. Half the guys shaq played were close to his own size. His combination of speed, strength, size, athleticism and aggression was then and still is completely unprecedented.

LOL:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Shaq had always significant weight strength and almost always height advantage against his opponent.He just overwhelmed the opponents with shear size.Shaq was around 330-350 during his prime.Only yao was close.

[Overdrive]

Seems like people neclect the fact that Shaq also dominated in a time where David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, Patrick Ewing and Alonzo Mourning played and he did it from day 1.

It's not like he was some scrub before 'cept for Mourning the got old and retired and then put up MVP type numbers.