If Lebron continues to play at this level

[BruceLeeBowen]

until he's 31, will you ish poster consider him better than Bird? Best SF of all time?
Imo right now it can already be argued, The only thing thats keeping him from getting that title are accolades.

[sosolid4u09]

no doubt.

[arifgokcen]

until he's 31, will you ish poster consider him better than Bird? Best SF of all time?
Imo right now it can already be argued, The only thing thats keeping him from getting that title are accolades.
His peak is already better than birds.What he is missing is the accolades.If he gets another ring finals Mvp and MVP he will be better than bird.Bird has 3xMVP 2xFMVP 3 rings.

[2LeTTeRS]

I don't think its possible for him to have a better peak than Bird's. The only basis he has to be better than Bird is to have health stay on his side and have a longer prime.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

His peak is already better than birds.What he is missing is the accolades.If he gets another ring finals Mvp and MVP he will be better than bird.Bird has 3xMVP 2xFMVP 3 rings.
This.

[Rubio2Gasol]

He needs to raise his level to get to peak Bird IMO.

[Suckafree]

He needs to raise his level to get to peak Bird IMO.

Really?
-Their Stats are basically a wash
-Brons a better defender

Give Bron two more titles + FMVPS and hes easily on Birds level, probably better. Even one more ring + FMVP will put him on Birds level imo

[Odinn]

His peak is already better than birds.What he is missing is the accolades.If he gets another ring finals Mvp and MVP he will be better than bird.Bird has 3xMVP 2xFMVP 3 rings.
:oldlol: :oldlol:

[East_Stone_Ya]

thread title is stupid and further on we can't compare him to Bird since he is not retired yet

[scandisk_]

His peak is already better than birds.What he is missing is the accolades.If he gets another ring finals Mvp and MVP he will be better than bird.Bird has 3xMVP 2xFMVP 3 rings.

Prove it :pimp:

[coin24]

How the fu*k is LeBron better than Bird:facepalm Wow...

Using the rings and FMVP argument to prop up Bronzey, but Kobes 5 rings and 2 FMVPs dont count?? Good one:oldlol:

And dont give me the argument that Kobe rode shaq's coattails, LeBron left his team to join other superstars...


LeBron at best is top15. Unless he really dominates the next 6-7 years he is not moving up on that list. Hes had one decent season and a ton of embarassing letdowns and chokejobs. Better than Bird? :facepalm

[raprap]

Absolutely. Let's be honest, Birds numbers are inflated by playing in the 80's.

[pauk]

Individual talent/skill/domination/production/stats wise Lebron has been better than any SF in NBA history, since a long while ago....... only thing Bird could do significantly better was shoot, Lebron does everything else better with the most significant part being defense..... Bird has a more accomplished career tho, hence the higher place on the rankings....

[KOBE143]

Nope, a choker like him will never surpass Bird..

[ripthekik]

lebron was also a better choker, as we all witnessed in the 2011 finals:bowdown:

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o-500x373.jpg

the king:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[riseagainst]

outside of his 2009 playoff run where the cavs lost to the magic, I don't see how Lebron is superior.

[jbryan1984]

Whether I like it or not, LeBron has now gained confidence in his game in the Finals. Its actually really scary when you think about it. I always knew he could do it, I knew he could of done it with us, but he lacked confidence and now he has it.

[BlueandGold]

Individual talent/skill/domination/production/stats wise Lebron has been better than any SF in NBA history, since a long while ago....... only thing Bird could do significantly better was shoot, Lebron does everything else better with the most significant part being defense..... Bird has a more accomplished career tho, hence the higher place on the rankings....
It's posts like this that show the forum how little basketball knowledge you possess.

Unless Lebron wins a couple more championships its out of the question. Bird saved the NBA, Lebron made it into this big whore-fest for titles.

[SilkkTheShocker]

How the fu*k is LeBron better than Bird:facepalm Wow...

Using the rings and FMVP argument to prop up Bronzey, but Kobes 5 rings and 2 FMVPs dont count?? Good one:oldlol:

And dont give me the argument that Kobe rode shaq's coattails, LeBron left his team to join other superstars...


LeBron at best is top15. Unless he really dominates the next 6-7 years he is not moving up on that list. Hes had one decent season and a ton of embarassing letdowns and chokejobs. Better than Bird? :facepalm


Only Kobe fans here think Lebron is just "top 15" :oldlol: :oldlol:

[riseagainst]

Only Kobe fans here think Lebron is just "top 15" :oldlol: :oldlol:

but he is top 15 right now. why is that wrong? :confusedshrug:
only lebron stans think lebron is top 10, top 5, or GOAT right now. :lol

[SilkkTheShocker]

but he is top 15 right now. why is that wrong? :confusedshrug:
only lebron stans think lebron is top 10, top 5, or GOAT right now. :lol


They always act like he is barely top 15. Lebron is one ring or MVP away from knocking someone out of the top 10.

[riseagainst]

They always act like he is barely top 15. Lebron is one ring or MVP away from knocking someone out of the top 10.

ring: probably
MVP: no

[Rake2204]

I'm not sure about all these rankings and whatnot, particularly in terms of who James will or will not be supplanting if he plays a certain way until he's 31, but it's clear to me he's an all-time great. I've felt that way for a long, long time. I think this is an easier conclusion for me to make since I do not allow team success to play very heavily in the rating of an individual player's skill. James has been the most effective, unique and excellent player I've witnessed in my adult life and while I'm not interested in stating whether he's better than Bird or worse than Magic, I'll just say I feel he's among them. He fits right in with the greatest players of all-time.

[Rubio2Gasol]

I don't even think he's top 15 lol.

Top 5 as a talent , but when people start saying he's a ring away from knocking Hakeem out of the top 10 all I can do is cringe.Far less MVP, of all the piece of shit awards in the world....MVP.

MVP as an award disgusts me.

Shaq has one , Kobe has one Hakeem has one.

DERRICK ROSE has 1.
STEVE NASH has 2.

KARL MALONE competing with JORDAN has 2,

:roll:

[ripthekik]

lots of good posts in this thread. Dude is definitely top 15.
top talent for sure, but unless he joined up with another all time great, he was going to be ringless like malone. top 10 just because he stacked all odds n formed n super team as a coward??:oldlol: :oldlol:

his career achievement is far from those of the top 10. the way they won their ring, n nobody chocked like he did.

[pegasus]

How the fu*k is LeBron better than Bird:facepalm Wow...

Using the rings and FMVP argument to prop up Bronzey, but Kobes 5 rings and 2 FMVPs dont count?? Good one:oldlol:

And dont give me the argument that Kobe rode shaq's coattails, LeBron left his team to join other superstars...


LeBron at best is top15. Unless he really dominates the next 6-7 years he is not moving up on that list. Hes had one decent season and a ton of embarassing letdowns and chokejobs. Better than Bird? :facepalm

This.:applause:

It sickens me how quickly people forget.

[miles berg]

LeBron simply isnt as good as Bird was. Bird was a better shooter, scorer, passer, rebounder, and leader.

[RaininTwos]

Threads like these make me realize that most of my time here could be used for much better purposes like jerking off or something.

Lebron is number two on the all time SF chart(someone is going to say "What about Dr.J:eek: :eek: " and we have people on here outraged at the possibility of him passing Bird, the number one SF.

One question: Why?

People get passed, it happens dude.

I think he will, but people tend to overrate past players and gloss over their short comings.

[Sarcastic]

Individual talent/skill/domination/production/stats wise Lebron has been better than any SF in NBA history, since a long while ago....... only thing Bird could do significantly better was shoot, Lebron does everything else better with the most significant part being defense..... Bird has a more accomplished career tho, hence the higher place on the rankings....


There's not really anything that Lebron could do "significantly better" than Bird though.

[RaininTwos]

There's not really anything that Lebron could do "significantly better" than Bird though.

That's not true.

[NuggetsFan]

It's crazy how people think LeBron can't end up as the best SF of all-time. People try and make past players unpassable. Injuries, Lakers, sudden decline can obviously all prevent that from happening but if LeBron 3 peats or even wins another ring or two with the same kinda play as this year will people really still think it's impossible?

If LeBron sticks around awhile I think it's a pretty good bet he ends up becoming the best SF of all-time. It's not like he's extremely far off now and he's still in his prime for atleast another few years which means MVP contention, DPOTY contention, playing for more rings etc.

[riseagainst]

It's crazy how people think LeBron can't end up as the best SF of all-time. People try and make past players unpassable. Injuries, Lakers, sudden decline can obviously all prevent that from happening but if LeBron 3 peats or even wins another ring or two with the same kinda play as this year will people really still think it's impossible?

If LeBron sticks around awhile I think it's a pretty good bet he ends up becoming the best SF of all-time. It's not like he's extremely far off now and he's still in his prime for atleast another few years which means MVP contention, DPOTY contention, playing for more rings etc.

who's that girl in your avatar?

[NuggetsFan]

who's that girl in your avatar?

Nina Dobrev.

[DatAsh]

There's not really anything that Lebron could do "significantly better" than Bird though.

Defend

[lilblingy]

Lebron does have a chance at becoming goat SF but no amount of MVP will get him there. He will need to win at least 2 more rings and be as dominant as he was this past season in both of them.

[Sarcastic]

Defend


He's better, but not significantly.

[lilgodfather1]

LeBron is a better player than Bird. Better scorer, better efficiency, better passer, better defender. That doesn't mean he is greater, but he is close. An MVP, and a FMVP will put him past Bird. If he can manage to squeeze out a DPOY next year that would be the cherry needed.

[Sarcastic]

That's not true.


Ok, I take it back. He can dunk "significantly" better.

[riseagainst]

LeBron is a better player than Bird. Better scorer, better efficiency, better passer, better defender. That doesn't mean he is greater, but he is close. An MVP, and a FMVP will put him past Bird. If he can manage to squeeze out a DPOY next year that would be the cherry needed.

:no: bird shits on Lebron on efficiency. and bird's better at passing.

[chips93]

:no: bird shits on Lebron on efficiency. and bird's better at passing.

career TS%:

Bron: 56.9
Bird: 56.4

and lebron has only gotten more efficent as his career has gone on, so that number is likely to go up

Career turnover percentage:

Bron: 12.1
Bird: 12.7

Assist Percentage:

Bron: 34.1
Bird: 24.7

Career Rebounding Percentage:

Bron: 10.5
Bird: 14.5

so lebron is more efficeint, not by a lot, but he is more efficeint

while bird is the better rebounder

[riseagainst]

career TS%:

Bron: 56.9
Bird: 56.4

and lebron has only gotten more efficent as his career has gone on, so that number is likely to go up

Career turnover percentage:

Bron: 12.1
Bird: 12.7

Assist Percentage:

Bron: 34.1
Bird: 24.7

Career Rebounding Percentage:

Bron: 10.5
Bird: 14.5

so lebron is more efficeint, not by a lot, but he is more efficeint

while bird is the better rebounder

shouldn't you compare primes/peaks when comparing players? :confusedshrug:

[chips93]

shouldn't you compare primes/peaks when comparing players? :confusedshrug:

if you wanna go ahead and do all that math, be my guest

:cheers:

[Pointguard]

until he's 31, will you ish poster consider him better than Bird? Best SF of all time?
Imo right now it can already be argued, The only thing thats keeping him from getting that title are accolades.
I think he will get better so in five years and he maintains his health it will be hard not to pass Bird. Every year he gets more efficient and adds to his game in some measure. This year will be the first year he will be playing without a lot of pressure in like 4 years. So his confidence and relaxation should be a lot better. While he did have a couple of melt downs in the playoffs his playoff play will likely be far above any perimeter player's (not named MJ) when he's 31 yo. He's had great playoff play, nobody in the history of the game has scored the last 26 points in a win on a great defensive team in the playoffs.

Bleecher Report says the only player in league history to have registered a line of 30-9-5 with 50 percent shooting or better over the course of a postseason run...and he's now done it twice. He also has a 45 points, 15 rebounds and five assists on 73.1 percent shooting in an ECF. So his playoff successes will be quite interesting in five years. Now that Lebron knows that he can post up its hard to guess how that will open up in his game. It is very possible that Lebron will win a DPOY award as well. Lebron is the most versatile player the game ever had. His judgement on the court is superior to any big time scorer in the history of the game as well.

In seven years, Durant's playoff and regular season numbers will be insane and favorably distinguishable from Kobe's and Bird's. In seven years there is a real possibility of a shakeup in the GOAT list for perimeter players.

[SilkkTheShocker]

career TS%:

Bron: 56.9
Bird: 56.4

and lebron has only gotten more efficent as his career has gone on, so that number is likely to go up

Career turnover percentage:

Bron: 12.1
Bird: 12.7

Assist Percentage:

Bron: 34.1
Bird: 24.7

Career Rebounding Percentage:

Bron: 10.5
Bird: 14.5

so lebron is more efficeint, not by a lot, but he is more efficeint

while bird is the better rebounder


#rape

[lilgodfather1]

:no: bird shits on Lebron on efficiency. and bird's better at passing.
Bird played in an era where efficiency stats were high for all players therefore he has inflated shooting stats just like every other player from that time period. If you don't believe me look at the league averages (FG%) from the time Bird played compared to now the difference is generally 2-3 % higher than now. I attribute this to improved defense, and the average player being better than the average player of that time.

Edit: I forgot about the passing bit. Bird played in an era where he had more posessions to get assists, and yet LeBron has a season of more assists than Bird was able to get. Not to mention that LeBron will likely be near 10,000 assists when he retires, nearly twice Bird's total...

[Raz]

I don't think its possible for him to have a better peak than Bird's. The only basis he has to be better than Bird is to have health stay on his side and have a longer prime.

KD, great post.

LeBron has not been near Bird's peak. Bird averaged 50-40-90 in his prime, to go with 23-28ppg, 10rpg, 6-7 apg.

LeBron isn't touching that. Then add the championships.

[lilgodfather1]

KD, great post.

LeBron has not been near Bird's peak. Bird averaged 50-40-90 in his prime, to go with 23-28ppg, 10rpg, 6-7 apg.

LeBron isn't touching that. Then add the championships.
LeBron's 30p/7r/9a season was better than anything Bird could dream of...

[Sleu27]

In no way is Lebron better than bird, first of all bird didnt have to leave a +65 win team that was constantly in the semis, ecf, and a finals appearance to team up with two other allstars, he was constantly choking it up.

So as soon as he teams up with wade and bosh, heat make the finals and Lebron wets the bed.

But yes next season he has a good year and wins his first title and fmvp

So all of a sudden people say hes better than bird?

Everybody is just a prisoner of the moment. Even if he was to win the title this year he still wouldnt compare to.bird.

[SilkkTheShocker]

What was the Cavs record after Lebron left?

[TylerOO]

Lol idiots. LeBron is better than bird

[DTreats]

LeBron needs to prove he's a winner to be above Bird, so far he's proven he can fill up a stat sheet but can't win without 2 top 15 players. His free throw shooting is mediocre, and all of his shooting numbers are lackluster.


No doubt he's one of the best individual talents in NBA history, but he'll never be an all-time great champion.

[ripthekik]

What was the Cavs record after Lebron left?
worst argument of all time, retard.

[HurricaneKid]

Hes had one decent season and a ton of embarassing letdowns and chokejobs. Better than Bird? :facepalm

This is why I left here to go to RealGM.

One decent season???

He has three of the top 10 PER seasons EVER. Which two were < decent? He has had 5 of the top 50 PER seasons. Bird? ZERO.

[DTreats]

This is why I left here to go to RealGM.

One decent season???

He has three of the top 10 PER seasons EVER. Which two were < decent? He has had 5 of the top 50 PER seasons. Bird? ZERO.
What's PER? don't look it up

[Sleu27]

This is why I left here to go to RealGM.

One decent season???

He has three of the top 10 PER seasons EVER. Which two were < decent? He has had 5 of the top 50 PER seasons. Bird? ZERO.


Please do yourself a favor and go back to realgm then...

[SilkkTheShocker]

worst argument of all time, retard.


19 wins.

[Lebron23]

This is why I left here to go to RealGM.

One decent season???

He has three of the top 10 PER seasons EVER. Which two were < decent? He has had 5 of the top 50 PER seasons. Bird? ZERO.

This. Coin24 is a terrible poster and a cross eyed retard. LBJ will have the same numbers of Finals MVP as Bird next season.

[ripthekik]

19 wins.
lost their coach, center, star was injured, it was a whole diff team.
what happened to lebron that year in the finals btw, when he finally got the help you guys cried he never had?:confusedshrug:

[Sleu27]

19 wins.

You forget that cleveland was tanking so they can rebuild

Damn your posts get stupider and stupider kid

[OldSchoolBBall]

His peak is NOT better than Bird's. Geez... :oldlol:

[riseagainst]

19 wins.

if Cleveland was a winning team then LEbron would've went to another terrible record team and make them a contender. That's the point of the draft, it's to help out sh*tty teams getting good picks/good players so they can become contenders. Not every 1st pick is a Kwame Brown... :facepalm:

[SilkkTheShocker]

19 wins and the 2nd worst record in the NBA. Thats what happened because of Lebron leaving.

[HurricaneKid]

Please do yourself a favor and go back to realgm then...

Oh, I do. I pop in here once a month or so to see the inmates running the asylum, chuckle a few times and sign off for a while.

Are you in agreement that LeBron has had "one decent season"?

[ILLsmak]

It's possible. I don't see many rational posts in this thread. It's either HELL NO or FOSHO.

He needs to win more.

I think Birds impact is not measured by stats as well as LeBron's is. Bird did a lot more intangible stuff.

I think if LeBron and Bird went head 2 head that Bird would outplay him. You also have to mention Pippen or are we already putting Bron over Pippen?

-Smak

[lilgodfather1]

It's possible. I don't see many rational posts in this thread. It's either HELL NO or FOSHO.

He needs to win more.

I think Birds impact is not measured by stats as well as LeBron's is. Bird did a lot more intangible stuff.

I think if LeBron and Bird went head 2 head that Bird would outplay him. You also have to mention Pippen or are we already putting Bron over Pippen?

-Smak
LeBron is far ahead of Pippen lol, and has been for oh I don't know 4 years or so. Defensively LeBron is the only player at the SF position close to Pippen other than Artest, and offensively he is far better than both.

[Sarcastic]

LeBron is far ahead of Pippen lol, and has been for oh I don't know 4 years or so. Defensively LeBron is the only player at the SF position close to Pippen other than Artest, and offensively he is far better than both.


Michael Cooper, Bobby Jones.


Oh but wait. Basketball started in 1990, right?

[greymatter]

You also have to mention Pippen or are we already putting Bron over Pippen?


There is nothing that Pippen has over Lebron except being able to defend guards and SFs slightly better.

[Pointguard]

Bird's first real big year happened at 28 years old (this was the first time he averaged over 25ppg and he was 27 years old before he averaged over 22ppg in the playoffs - Lebron only averaged under 25ppg once in a playoff run, and is close to 30ppg outside of that year - amazing when you consider that Bird major strength on Lebron is that Bird's a scorer). Lebron isn't 28 yet. If Lebron's first big year is ahead of him its going to be crazy - if it had Birds progression it would be something like 34ppg 9rebs and 10 asst - which would just flat out be the most impressive year by any modern player.

Bird had three super regular seasons and four super prolific playoff runs. Lebron has already had seven super regular seasons and five super prolific playoff runs. Lebron will likely pass Bird in total points next year despite not being a scorer.

In the championship run, Lebron just found a whole new dimension to his game and he was already the game's most versatile player without anybody on his level. Bird has the edge right now primarily because of his impact on the total game has been legendary. But as a player Lebron only has a handful of people in front of him.

[LeBird]

When Lebron has a clear case above Bird, or as the greatest SF, he has a clear case over Jordan. It just isn't going to happen in all likelihood. If it does happen, then you are talking about the GOAT. Between the likes of Bird, Jordan, Magic, etc, there is hair's width and you can argue who is better than who. Even those guys aren't clearly better than each other. So if Lebron even enters that discussion he'll have done amazingly well.

As for now, I think Bird was a better shooter, passer, rebounder whereas Lebron is slightly better scorer and a better defender. I don't think Lebron is ever going to get to the level of Bird's fundamentals but if he can get the aggregates/volume, back that up with championships, then he'll be right alongside him.

[LeBird]

Bird's first real big year...

Was his first year, when he was about 23; turning around the Celtics from the 2nd worst team to the best record in the league; and coming 4th in MVP voting IIRC; making All-NBA first team and Rookie team.

And your point is ridiculous; by what measure is Bird a scorer and Lebron isn't?

[Freedom Kid7]

Comparing LeBron's peak to Bird? :facepalm . LeBron's great and all, but peak Bird did everything on offense incredibly. Only thing LeBron gets the edge on is defense. Bird wasn't the best at that.

[coin24]

Bird's first real big year happened at 28 years old (this was the first time he averaged over 25ppg and he was 27 years old before he averaged over 22ppg in the playoffs - Lebron only averaged under 25ppg once in a playoff run, and is close to 30ppg outside of that year - amazing when you consider that Bird major strength on Lebron is that Bird's a scorer). Lebron isn't 28 yet. If Lebron's first big year is ahead of him its going to be crazy - if it had Birds progression it would be something like 34ppg 9rebs and 10 asst - which would just flat out be the most impressive year by any modern player.

Bird had three super regular seasons and four super prolific playoff runs. Lebron has already had seven super regular seasons and five super prolific playoff runs. Lebron will likely pass Bird in total points next year despite not being a scorer.

In the championship run, Lebron just found a whole new dimension to his game and he was already the game's most versatile player without anybody on his level. Bird has the edge right now primarily because of his impact on the total game has been legendary. But as a player Lebron only has a handful of people in front of him.


A whole new dimension? He barreled in for layups, Okc made no adjustments..
Not sure what series you were watching:confusedshrug:
Not hating on bron, it's great that he finally won something, but ppl claiming he's now great in the post/clutch are kidding themselves..

[longtime lurker]

Lebron d!ckriders errr I mean fans are a funny bunch. First they say championships don't matter because they're a team accomplishment, now they say Lebron needs 1 more championship and he'll be greater than Bird :oldlol: Please Bird was an absolute killer that smacked around some of the greatest players to ever play the game. Lebron got the best of Danny Granger and an injured Knicks squad.

[TheBigVeto]

No.
He could've, if he accomplishes the same and had stayed with the Cavs.

[Mach_3]

Da Fuq did i just read?:biggums:

[ZaaaaaH]

Individual talent/skill/domination/production/stats wise Lebron has been better than any SF in NBA history, since a long while ago....... only thing Bird could do significantly better was shoot, Lebron does everything else better with the most significant part being defense..... Bird has a more accomplished career tho, hence the higher place on the rankings....


Young Buck let me teach you something. Bird is ONE of the Elitist player who has the TOP notch instinct and feel for the game.

GTFO with ur stat Geek crap. Even on paper Bird was no joke especially when he does not dominate the ball much as LeBron.

Bird also has the competitiveness LeBron cannot even touch.

Bird can only shoot better then LeBron ? LOL













Young Buck :facepalm

[Ikill]

Bird's first real big year happened at 28 years old (this was the first time he averaged over 25ppg and he was 27 years old before he averaged over 22ppg in the playoffs - Lebron only averaged under 25ppg once in a playoff run, and is close to 30ppg outside of that year - amazing when you consider that Bird major strength on Lebron is that Bird's a scorer). Lebron isn't 28 yet. If Lebron's first big year is ahead of him its going to be crazy - if it had Birds progression it would be something like 34ppg 9rebs and 10 asst - which would just flat out be the most impressive year by any modern player.

Bird had three super regular seasons and four super prolific playoff runs. Lebron has already had seven super regular seasons and five super prolific playoff runs. Lebron will likely pass Bird in total points next year despite not being a scorer.

In the championship run, Lebron just found a whole new dimension to his game and he was already the game's most versatile player without anybody on his level. Bird has the edge right now primarily because of his impact on the total game has been legendary. But as a player Lebron only has a handful of people in front of him.
I would only say two 2012 and 2009 but it depends on what you mean by super prolific

[OldSchoolBBall]

LeBron's 30p/7r/9a season was better than anything Bird could dream of...

Bird's 28/9/8 on 53% FG/61% TS while dominating the ball FAR less than Lebron says otherwise.

[KingBeasley08]

Lebron's peak is already better than Bird's. People tend to overrated old players like crazy :oldlol:

[Hands of Iron]

Bird's 28/9/8 on 53% FG/61% TS while dominating the ball FAR less than Lebron says otherwise.

Key point here, and roughly makes up for the possession argument. FGA's are also FGA's last time I checked. What's funny too is that the Celtics actually played at a pace that registered in the bottom half of the league throughout Bird's peak (84-88).

Also, where are all of the 50/40/90 seasons on 25+ PPG (Bird's volume was actually 28 and 30 respectively) in this super-easy shooting era? Far as I know, he's the only player to have a season such as that in NBA history. Twice, in consecutive years no less. Over his peak span (roughly five seasons or 390 games) he held down 27/10/7 on 50/40/90.

Then there's the actual skill sets and abilities to be measured.

[NumberSix]

Young Buck let me teach you something. Bird is ONE of the Elitist
Stopped reading.



http://www.fashioneggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Billy-Zane-Tux.jpg

[Hands of Iron]

Key point here, and roughly makes up for the possession argument. FGA's are also FGA's last time I checked. What's funny too is that the Celtics actually played at a pace that registered in the bottom half of the league throughout Bird's peak (84-88).

Also, where are all of the 50/40/90 seasons on 25+ PPG (Bird's volume was actually 28 and 30 respectively) in this super-easy shooting era? Far as I know, he's the only player to have a season such as that in NBA history. Twice, in consecutive years no less. Over his peak span (roughly five seasons or 390 games) he held down 27/10/7 on 50/40/90.

Then there's the actual skill sets and abilities to be measured.

Speaking of which: Lebron is probably amongst the top three freak athletes to ever hit the league, even relative to era. The fact that some unathletic white boy has a considerable case over him should tell you all you need to know in regards to skills. How the hell else did he do it? :oldlol: Arguably Numero Uno there. :applause:

[funnystuff]

So many Kobe stans in a thread titled 'If Lebron continues to play at this level'


One word...



Insecurity.

[NumberSix]

So many Kobe stans in a thread titled 'If Lebron continues to play at this level'


One word...



Insecurity.
http://www.brain-magazine.com/images/stories/PAGE_PUTE_6/tom-cruise-gayness.jpg

[ZaaaaaH]

Stopped reading.



http://www.fashioneggs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Billy-Zane-Tux.jpg


Im glad.

Dont want some fagggot who post up homosexual pictuers of other guys to start yappin it up.

Again You are one homo who loves guy pictuers on the net.

[ZaaaaaH]

http://www.brain-magazine.com/images/stories/PAGE_PUTE_6/tom-cruise-gayness.jpg


Another one ...

[NumberSix]

Im glad.

Dont want some fagggot who post up homosexual pictuers of other guys to start yappin it up.

Again You are one homo who loves guy pictuers on the net.
http://funny-pictures-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/funny-pictures/Johnny-depp.jpg

[Hands of Iron]

why does it matter how their pace compared to other teams in the 80s, we are comparing bird to lebron, so how the celtics pace compares to other teams in the 80s is irrelevant. how you thought it was relevant is beyond me.

all of lebron's teams have played pretty close to a pace of 90 possessions per game, while bird's teams in the period you stipulated had an average pace of 106 possessions per game

this is a very significant difference

I didn't consider it relevant necessarily in comparison to Lebron but rather in Bird's individual case as people would have you believe his teams we're leading the charge of the fast-paced 80s and all of his points were in transition as a result of fastbreaks or what not. He was an elite scorer in the half court and did the majority of his work there.

Celtics:

1983-84: 99.7
1984-85: 101.6
1985-86: 101.2
1986-87: 98.6
1987-88: 97.9

Cavs/Heat:

2007-08: 90.2
2008-09: 88.7
2009-10: 91.4
2010-11: 90.9
2011-12: 91.2

Sure, there's a difference but then again Bird wasn't nearly as ball dominant either. There's certainly an argument to made in Lebron's favor in terms of the percentages, but to just mention pace and call it case closed is pretty ridiculous.


this hallowed 40/50/90 thing is pretty silly to me.

bird took far less threes, and far less free throws than bron. so while bird may appear more efficeint because he has those elite 50/40/90 numbers, the fact that lebron takes more free throws, and more threes, narrows the gap in efficeincy

bird shoots better from all three spots, but lebron takes more, of the better shots

cases like this are exactly why TS% is such a good stat to use.

another interesting case is daquan cook and ray allen, in 2010. ray shot better from the freethrow line, from 3, and from the field. but cook had a higher TS% because he took more 3s, and more FTs

You can call it hallowed, I call it unique. Do you honestly consider it a coincidence nobody else in NBA history has maintained those percentages on a volume of 25+ PPG over a season (with only Dirk in his MVP year achieving it by rounding his 24.6), much less 28 and 30? It's a pretty solid achievement imo.

[ZaaaaaH]

http://funny-pictures-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/funny-pictures/Johnny-depp.jpg


Dont get it ....

Must be some fagggot jokes

[chips93]

You can call it hallowed, I call it unique. Do you honestly consider it a coincidence nobody else in NBA history has maintained those percentages on a volume of 25+ PPG over a season (with only Dirk in his MVP year achieving it by rounding his 24.6), much less 28 and 30? It's a pretty solid achievement imo.



im not saying that it isnt a great achievement, it really is. im just saying that TS% is a better indicator of shooting effieciency that looking at FG%, FT%, and 3pt%

[Hands of Iron]

im not saying that it isnt a great achievement, it really is. im just saying that TS% is a better indicator of shooting effieciency that looking at FG%, FT%, and 3pt%

Ah, fair enough. I really just more or less responded to what OldSchoolBBall said in regards to Bird by expanding upon his defense and fleshing out some of his accomplishments more than trying to say "Bird's better because of this..." -- I think Lebron would actually get the edge in terms of production everything considered, while I do without hesistation regard Bird as the more skilled player. Visually from watching games as well as the fact that there's no way he could be in this conversation if he weren't, as there was quite a lot left to be desired from an athletic standpoint. Lebron is one of the GOAT athletes and GOAT finishers at the rim. That's a lethal combination. Just look at how much more efficient of a scorer Shaq was than Hakeem despite the difference in skills. That isn't to say Lebron doesn't have skills or his all-around game hasn't improved.

[Round Mound]

Lets Anaylze Them

Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)

Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

until he's 31, will you ish poster consider him better than Bird? Best SF of all time?
Imo right now it can already be argued, The only thing thats keeping him from getting that title are accolades.
no, it CAN'T be argued... except by the young ignorant masses of ISH.

[EllisGW]

what is the point of this thread when bird said lebron is better than him

[Pointguard]

Was his first year, when he was about 23; turning around the Celtics from the 2nd worst team to the best record in the league; and coming 4th in MVP voting IIRC; making All-NBA first team and Rookie team.

And your point is ridiculous; by what measure is Bird a scorer and Lebron isn't?
In his first year Bird wasn't ready for the playoffs and I did stress real big super year. It took awhile before Bird was better than Maxwell in the playoffs. Its very different if the majority of the people here knew who Maxwell was. If Lebron had that type of year after he was 20 people would wonder what was wrong with him.

On to your second point, people actually don't call Lebron a scorer cause its not what he sets out to do when he's on the court. On this board the top three scorers are Durant, Kobe and Wade over the last three years. If Lebron is hot he doesn't try to score the whole game and will more than likely pass more. I guess that's the distinction. Greg Anthony just said last week that Lebron isn't considered a scorer because that's not what he does best.

[Pointguard]

A whole new dimension? He barreled in for layups, Okc made no adjustments..
Not sure what series you were watching:confusedshrug:
Not hating on bron, it's great that he finally won something, but ppl claiming he's now great in the post/clutch are kidding themselves..

Funny, I never said posting up but you knew right away what I was talking about. So we must have been watching the same series. :confusedshrug:
I never said he did it great either but you went there, so these things are obviously on your mind while they weren't on mine.

If a player was tops in the league in fourth quarter scoring, and top five over a five year span in percentage in close games - you clutch. If you have some of the best games in recent playoff history - you clutch. If you scored 26 of your teams last points on a stellar defensive team and win, you clutch. No player was close to being clutch all the time.

[Pointguard]

Lets Anaylze Them

Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)

Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever
LOL, you broke defender up three times in favor of Bird. Please go on youtube and show me where Bird locked down anybody. He wasn't this great defender at all. He might have been adequate at best. PF's back then rarely scored anyway.

When Kurt Rambis came out the game and AC Green came in Bird whole game was affected by AC Green because he couldn't keep up with him. When real powerforwards played Mchale guarded Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Buck Williams, Dr J. So while Bird was avoiding the better foward 95% of the time, Lebron is guarding the best scorer on the other team 85% of the time. Dennis Johnson used to guard Barkley in a lot of those Philly matchups, which is just plain crazy. Lebron would have been guarding the hotter between Dr J and Barkley - Bird didn't guard either of the Forwards. Its not even a conversation, to be honest.

[LeBird]

In his first year Bird wasn't ready for the playoffs and I did stress real big super year. It took awhile before Bird was better than Maxwell in the playoffs. Its very different if the majority of the people here knew who Maxwell was. If Lebron had that type of year after he was 20 people would wonder what was wrong with him.

Then you're really narrowing the definition of what a really big year is, and you did it by arbitrary stat-lines. Bird's first year was a huge year. The number of players who have had that affect on a team in the NBA can be counted on one hand.


On to your second point, people actually don't call Lebron a scorer cause its not what he sets out to do when he's on the court. On this board the top three scorers are Durant, Kobe and Wade over the last three years. If Lebron is hot he doesn't try to score the whole game and will more than likely pass more. I guess that's the distinction. Greg Anthony just said last week that Lebron isn't considered a scorer because that's not what he does best.

That's ironic because that describes Bird. Even though he is probably the greatest shooter of all time, he didn't set out to score the most or lead the league in ppgs. He was a past-first player and set out for the high percentage play as much as possible. In the same vein, Bird could be the best rebounder, passer or scorer on the team whenever the occasion arose - and 2/3 to a far higher level than Lebron. In this respect they're the same; that you can't just say "x is a scorer".

[pauk]

This level until he is 31? As in get MVP, FMVP, Championship until he is 31... which is 4 years from now? Which means 4 more MVPs, 4 more FMVPs, 4 more Championships?

Which means his career will look something like:

7 x MVP
5 x FMVP
5 x Championships
12 x NBA All-Star
10 x 1st All-NBA
8 x 1st All-Defensive
ROTY
and so on...

That is enough not only to pass freakin Bird, but Michael Jordan and become GOAT....

[pauk]

Lets Anaylze Them

Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on PGs, SGs, SFs, PFs, Cs, he is alongside Pippen the most versatile defender in NBA history....

Lebron is a Better versatile player, he could play and even dominate up to 4-5 positions playing them traditionally

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)

Lebron is a Better Pure Passer (just watch the stats, records, milestones, games, videos.. although Bird is right behind Lebron in that area amongst SFs or any non-PGs)

Lebron is a Better Interior/Perimeter/Help/Team Defender

Bird Was a Better Pure Shooter no question (far range, close range, mid range, FT etc, maybe the best shooter ever afterall)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (or at least he attacked the boards more where as Lebron would instead more like leak out for a breakaway on the defensive boards and run first back to play defense/chasedown on offensive boards.)

Bird was a Better Post Player (Lebron has improved and might improve even more than Bird in that area very soon though).



Fixed...


Mind you, Bird was my favorite player of all time alongside Reggie, i have around 150-200 games with him.... but i am not simpleminded, i have watched every single game of Lebron and i can tell you with full comfort that Lebron is somewhat of a better overall individual player no matter how you twist and turn it... Bird will tell you the same (and he does, all the time, hell he even said Lebron will end up GOAT)...

All-time rankings are more about accolades rather than Individual talent... if that wasnt the case then Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson would have been GOATs

[LeBird]

Lebron is a better passer than Bird? You're taking the piss now - especially from a so-called Bird fan. And only 'somewhat' better rebounder? :wtf:

[pauk]

Lebron is a better passer than Bird? You're taking the piss now - especially from a so-called Bird fan.

He is man.....

What criteria do you want to go after? Assist totals, Assist averages, pure passing arsenal/ability, court vision, records, milestones..... Try me... i got all those facts and NONE favor Larry Bird...

[LeBird]

He is man.....

What criteria do you want to go after? Assist totals, Assist averages, pure passing arsenal/ability, court vision, records, milestones..... Try me... i got all those facts and NONE favor Larry Bird...

:facepalm . The only reason Lebron comes close to Bird in terms of passing aggregates/averages is because he is much more ball dominant and plays half the game as a makeshift PG. Bird as a forward, a far less ball dominant player, averages almost the same. Bird had a far wider range of passing and his vision is really only matched by Magic. This is one area where they're on different tiers and the stats you cite only serve to hide the contextual differences.

[arifgokcen]

I thought bird himself said lebron is better than him.Why even argue this much. Even though their offensive production is very similar lebron ability to break down the entire defenses and draw fouls and his defensive prowessand versatiliy and physical and athletic abilities puts him over bird.Though he has to win more accolades to become the GOAT SF of all time.

[Hands of Iron]

:facepalm . The only reason Lebron comes close to Bird in terms of passing aggregates/averages is because he is much more ball dominant and plays half the game as a makeshift PG. Bird as a forward, a far less ball dominant player, averages almost the same. Bird had a far wider range of passing and his vision is really only matched by Magic. This is one area where they're on different tiers and the stats you cite only serve to hide the contextual differences.

Yeah, but he's got 150-200 Bird games. :lol :(

[alleykat]

if he continues at this level for the next years then yes you can make a case for him.....but that's IF......

idk how anyone can truly not see his potential, even if they are a lebron hater...

[BruceLeeBowen]

if he continues at this level for the next years then yes you can make a case for him.....but that's IF......

idk how anyone can truly not see his potential, even if they are a lebron hater...
Yeah 'm a huge huge fan of "PRIME" kobe but if Lebron continues to play at this level and wins a couple more 'ships as the lead dog he'll easily surpass kobe, shaq, duncan even bird. Hes only 27 ffs.

[Hands of Iron]

Only 27, but with nine seasons in the league already and still heavily dependent on his athleticism.

[Pointguard]

Only 27, but with nine seasons in the league already and still heavily dependent on his athleticism.
Lebron is one of the two best passing SF's ever. He can play more positions offensively than any SF which is the most versatile position to begin with. He also has one of the best handles for a guy his size. Among the high scorers he has the best judgement of when to pass or shoot perhaps ever in the game. He also has a great mix of inside shots, outside shots and hits them all at good percentages which is one of the best skills you can have in basketball. He's also one of the best rebounders at his position. He can play more positions than anybody in the game because his other fundamentals are great. His court awareness is among the best in the current game. Point Forward is the most skilled position in the NBA.

He's much more than his athleticism.

[Hands of Iron]

Lebron is one of the two best passing SF's ever. He can play more positions offensively than any SF which is the most versatile position to begin with. He also has one of the best handles for a guy his size. Among the high scorers he has the best judgement of when to pass or shoot perhaps ever in the game. He also has a great mix of inside shots, outside shots and hits them all at good percentages which is one of the best skills you can have in basketball. He's also one of the best rebounders at his position. He can play more positions than anybody in the game because his other fundamentals are great. His court awareness is among the best in the current game. Point Forward is the most skilled position in the NBA.

He's much more than his athleticism.

I'm talking about playing at the current GOAT level he's at and has been since circa '09, not being effective or even amongst the best in the league. Will be interesting to see how hungry he stays after getting over the hump and shutting up a lot of his critics.

[Sarcastic]

This level until he is 31? As in get MVP, FMVP, Championship until he is 31... which is 4 years from now? Which means 4 more MVPs, 4 more FMVPs, 4 more Championships?

Which means his career will look something like:

7 x MVP
5 x FMVP
5 x Championships
12 x NBA All-Star
10 x 1st All-NBA
8 x 1st All-Defensive
ROTY
and so on...

That is enough not only to pass freakin Bird, but Michael Jordan and become GOAT....

No it's not.

[Pointguard]

I'm talking about playing at the current GOAT level he's at and has been since circa '09, not being effective or even amongst the best in the league. Will be interesting to see how hungry he stays after getting over the hump and shutting up a lot of his critics.
True

[Hands of Iron]

True

Make no mistake about it, I'm not rooting against the guy simply because Bird is my dude. That's childish. Larry Bird won't cease being an All-Time Great because of what anybody else does. It took long enough for somebody to come along and match a lot of his unique qualities and all-around elite game and it took an athlete of Lebron's caliber. So if he puts up 35/9/7 on 50+% in the next couple post-seasons and leads the Heat to more titles I'll enjoy watching it.

[Hands of Iron]

It's definitely not going to be easy to maintain and it never is, even if you're 110% all in. The Thunder have their core and continually gain experience, the Lakers have made moves that could eat up and prevent Lebron from capitalizing on what he's started, preventing him from additional titles and accolades while at his peak a lot in the same way Magic and the 80s Lakers did to Bird. Not to mentiom having the early 80s 76ers and late 80s Pistons to deal with.

[Pointguard]

That's ironic because that describes Bird. Even though he is probably the greatest shooter of all time, he didn't set out to score the most or lead the league in ppgs. He was a past-first player and set out for the high percentage play as much as possible. In the same vein, Bird could be the best rebounder, passer or scorer on the team whenever the occasion arose - and 2/3 to a far higher level than Lebron. In this respect they're the same; that you can't just say "x is a scorer".

I do agree Bird was a whatever you need player moreso than a scorer as well. My bad on that.

Lebron play's point forward so his set up situation is perhaps more inherent in his game. Lebron has lead his team in more categories as much as any player since the 70's and this is before his prime. And lately he's been the best defender around as well. Bird was great in being able to lead his team in these categories but to suggest that he's had more years as the guy on his team to lead his team in a lot of categories he's not on Lebron level in that way.

Bird's major advantage over Lebron is that he's a shooter/scorer and rebounder. Bird rarely was as prolific as Lebron scoring and passing wise (playoffs or regular season already) so a lot of weight has to be put on Bird being a scorer/shooter and rebounder if the comparison evens out. So there is more weight on Bird to be a scorer then it is for Lebron is what I'm saying.

[LeBird]

IIRC, only Pippen and Bird (Bird more times than Pippen) have led his team in several factors. Lebron is also versatile like that.

As I said to another poster: you're looking at it the wrong way. Lebron, both in Cleveland and in Miami, carries the ball a hell of a lot. He basically plays point guard for many plays. That gives him a big advantage in terms of accumulating assists (aggregate or average) so sheer numbers doesn't tell the story. Bird played SF, but a lot of the time was more a PF. He didn't carry the ball like Lebron, or as often as Lebron, and the fact that their assist average is so similar is a testament to his vision - he is essentially getting the same number of assists although carrying the ball far less. Another thing that doesn't get counted is that Bird often made the decisive pass that led to an easy assist for someone else. He wouldn't get the assist in his stats, but his vision created the basket.

That's as far as numbers go; as far as actual skills go: Lebron does not touch Bird in terms of vision. Just watch old videos of Bird and look at Lebron. Bird's basketball IQ is in a different world to Lebron. Look at the kinds of assists he gives, and how he gives them. What you're doing simply looking at numbers and coming up with a conclusion. It's like saying Jordan was as good of a passer as Bird - just because their assist tallies are similar. But for the same reasons as the above, Jordan isn't near Bird (nor Magic) when it comes to passing the ball.

Don't get me wrong, my username is LeBird for a reason. I think ability-wise Lebron is in the top tier of players ever. I think he is a fantastic combination of skills and physical prowess. But when it comes to fundamentals he doesn't touch Bird, and passing is one of the few things that have little to do with how athletic you are.

Here is a fantastic video giving you a glimpse of the brilliance of his passing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhnRtgBGMl4

They say the league is more physical now, but in terms of technical brilliance you just don't see stuff like the above anymore (or at least consistently from players).

[crisoner]

lebron was also a better choker, as we all witnessed in the 2011 finals:bowdown:

http://mavsmag.com/redirk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/258027_522846740410_162900200_30684324_6201276_o-500x373.jpg

the king:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:roll:

[Indian guy]

He basically plays point guard for many plays. That gives him a big advantage in terms of accumulating assists (aggregate or average) so sheer numbers doesn't tell the story.

I've never really understood this argument. LeBron is ball dominant(or was, he's certainly NOT ball-dominant as a Heat) because he CAN be. He has the athleticism and dribbling ability for it. Bird did not. You wouldn't want him dribbling behind the 3pt line, trying to create possession-after-possession. He had to perfect his off-ball, triple-threat and post game to overcome his limited athleticism. Dribbling the ball more would have HURT his production, not help.

Not that I consider LeBron a superior passer to Bird, but his success in posting high assist numbers on Team USA over the years is enough testament to his passing prowess. He doesn't need to dominate the ball to be a high APG guy. He has also averaged 6.6 apg the last 2 seasons while sharing the ball with Wade. That's plenty impressive.

As far as the thread's concerned, I don't think Bird ever impacted the game at the level '09 and '10 LeBron did. LeBron's an equivalent offensive player while being significantly better defensively. He also has better numbers in both forms of the game. Does anyone think Bird could lead those Cavalier teams to back-to-back 60+ wins? I sure as heck can't, but I can certainly see LeBron matching Bird's success in Boston.

[bizil]

When it comes to Bird and Bron, they are actually very similar and yet very different. If u look at the stat sheet,their numbers are damn similar. Bird's boards are a bit higher because he played PF more often than Bron. I think in terms of passing vision, Bird and Bron are a tie. But Bron has point guard type handle and pace which gives him a unique twist over Bird. But from a stationery positon or one to two dribble scenario, Bird is as good of a passer as anybody EVER! It takes guys with PG type handle and pace like a Bron, Magic, Stockton, etc. to have a slight edge on Bird.

[bizil]

Peak value wise is a tossup between these two. But for me, I will narrowly lean to Bron because of the defensive versatility aspect. But that wasn't always the case and I would have went with Bird peak value wise 2 or 3 years ago. And to be frank, Bron has a great chance to pass LB on the GOAT SF list sooner than later. It won't take five years most likely. Im thinking as soon as a couple of years. Gotta realize Bron is entering his tenth year in the L while Bird played 13 seasons. It's EASILY fair game to compare a 10th year player to a 13 year career. Especially when it's a young stud as decorated as Bron.

[funnystuff]

I think we can all agree that Bird is one of the most ugliest players of all time, right?

[Pointguard]

IIRC, only Pippen and Bird (Bird more times than Pippen) have led his team in several factors. Lebron is also versatile like that.


Lebron '09 season was a clean sweep of every statistical category (steals rebounds and blocks included). Pippen was the only other guy like that during the regular season. Lebron nearly pulled it off in the playoffs as well. Birds '86 year is one of the best in basketball history. He lead his star team in nearly every category, certainly the bigger categories, and I think they won it all that year. Bird, with Magic, also changed the game and how perimeter play can be as dominant as center play. So in effect, Bird's play was innovative and strong.


As I said to another poster: you're looking at it the wrong way. Lebron, both in Cleveland and in Miami, carries the ball a hell of a lot. He basically plays point guard for many plays. That gives him a big advantage in terms of accumulating assists (aggregate or average) so sheer numbers doesn't tell the story. Bird played SF, but a lot of the time was more a PF. He didn't carry the ball like Lebron, or as often as Lebron, and the fact that their assist average is so similar is a testament to his vision - he is essentially getting the same number of assists although carrying the ball far less. Another thing that doesn't get counted is that Bird often made the decisive pass that led to an easy assist for someone else. He wouldn't get the assist in his stats, but his vision created the basket.
There is no argument there. I will only add if Lebron had more responsibilities and he did more and it can't be said that it doesn't count. He did more, he should get credit for doing more. If Lebron has the best center and power-forward tandem in the league, he would have three or four rings now. Its too much to factor in if we go into changing their roles and why they didn't win more. The ring count counts regardless but the better situation, which affects a players performance more, somehow doesn't count.


That's as far as numbers go; as far as actual skills go: Lebron does not touch Bird in terms of vision. Just watch old videos of Bird and look at Lebron. Bird's basketball IQ is in a different world to Lebron. Look at the kinds of assists he gives, and how he gives them. What you're doing simply looking at numbers and coming up with a conclusion. It's like saying Jordan was as good of a passer as Bird - just because their assist tallies are similar. But for the same reasons as the above, Jordan isn't near Bird (nor Magic) when it comes to passing the ball.

Bird said he saw the play develop in slow motion and you have to believe him. He was unique and great at it. Lebron's passing this year hasn't been as great as it was in the past, but are his quality of pass and vision a step down from Birds? I can't say for sure. Lebron played much faster than Bird did and his creativity and speed gets more quality opportunities for teammates. While I think his vision isn't as great (Bird has to be top five all time) its still exceptional. Lebron's passes are on the mark and only Magic had the same zip on it. I do think if Lebron had Celtic movement and their quality shooters from different parts on the floor, Lebron would be considered among the best passers ever. In terms of effect, he constantly does a lot with a little.


Don't get me wrong, my username is LeBird for a reason. I think ability-wise Lebron is in the top tier of players ever. I think he is a fantastic combination of skills and physical prowess. But when it comes to fundamentals he doesn't touch Bird, and passing is one of the few things that have little to do with how athletic you are.

Bird moves from 5 to 8 on my GOAT list, quite a bit ahead of Lebron. Offensively Bird is the best to chess piece on the board for me or most like the Queen chess piece. He set the tone for mixing being versatile, mental, aggressive, fearless and knowing how to impose his will on the game. The '86 season was just "Wow."

[Lebron23]

It's definitely not going to be easy to maintain and it never is, even if you're 110% all in. The Thunder have their core and continually gain experience, the Lakers have made moves that could eat up and prevent Lebron from capitalizing on what he's started, preventing him from additional titles and accolades while at his peak a lot in the same way Magic and the 80s Lakers did to Bird. Not to mentiom having the early 80s 76ers and late 80s Pistons to deal with.


You are already one of the good posters in this forum. If I visit the US later this year. I will recruit you on my basketball team.

On topic

If LeBron wins another championship and Finals MVP. He will be in the same level as Bird who's a 3x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

[ILLsmak]

Lets Anaylze Them

Lebron is a Better Pure Scorer (more versatile scorer)

Lebron is a Better Slasher and Driver (better ballhandler, faster, quicker and more potent)

Lebron is a Better Dunker and Finisher at The Rim (stronger upper torso more power)

Lebron is a Better Defender on SFs NOT PFs (*Bird had The Highest DRT and DWS for a SF in the 80s)

Lebron is a Better Ballhandler and Offense Creator (the best ever as an open court player IMO)

Lebron is a Better Full Court Player (athletic abilities)

Bird Was Was Better Pure Shooter (far range, close range, mid range etc)

Bird Was a Better Rebounder (Yes he average 15.3 RPG vs Moses in the 1981 Finals)

Bird was a Better Pure Passer (just watch the videos especially at half court)

Bird was Better Low Post Defender on PFs (See*)

Bird was Better Team Defender (would get many steals since today many teams play zone d)

Bird was Better 3-Point Shooter

Bird was A Better Post Player and Half Court Player (though Lebron has improoved)

Bird had The Better B-Ball IQ and Fundamentals (more Crafty and Skilled at Everything but Ballhandling)

I think They Are Close...I Think Both of Them are The Best SFs Ever but Different Style of Play. One is a SG/SF/PF Hybrid The Other is a Point-Forward

In the Next 5-7 Years Lebron has Chance to Be the Best SF Ever

I think this is a good post.

-Smak

[Hands of Iron]

I think we can all agree that Bird is one of the most ugliest players of all time, right?

That's not very nice. :(

[Hands of Iron]

You are already one of the good posters in this forum. If I visit the US later this year. I will recruit you on my basketball team.

On topic

If LeBron wins another championship and Finals MVP. He will be in the same level as Bird who's a 3x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

He's already on the same level I think for what they are as basketball players; abilities, impact on the floor, etc. Now it's just a matter of getting the accolades for the 'Greatness' case. Lebron is probably one of the Top 6 or 7 to play the game peak-for-peak even without anymore accolades. I wish he hadn't snapped during the 2010 playoffs because up until that point (Game 5) he wasnt far off from his 2009 level which was as great as any Forward has ever played in the playoffs, really.

[Round Mound]

LOL, you broke defender up three times in favor of Bird. Please go on youtube and show me where Bird locked down anybody. He wasn't this great defender at all. He might have been adequate at best. PF's back then rarely scored anyway.

When Kurt Rambis came out the game and AC Green came in Bird whole game was affected by AC Green because he couldn't keep up with him. When real powerforwards played Mchale guarded Ralph Sampson, Otis Thorpe, Buck Williams, Dr J. So while Bird was avoiding the better foward 95% of the time, Lebron is guarding the best scorer on the other team 85% of the time. Dennis Johnson used to guard Barkley in a lot of those Philly matchups, which is just plain crazy. Lebron would have been guarding the hotter between Dr J and Barkley - Bird didn't guard either of the Forwards. Its not even a conversation, to be honest.

Check Bird`s Defensive Rating and DWS...Broken Down Stats Don`t Lie Bird was a Great Post Defender and a Great Team Defender. He wasn`t The Best Defender Against Agil, Quick and Potent SFs but Against PFs he was MORE THAN FINE...and NO McHale Guarded Barkley Most of the Time.

[LeBird]

There is no argument there. I will only add if Lebron had more responsibilities and he did more and it can't be said that it doesn't count. He did more, he should get credit for doing more. If Lebron has the best center and power-forward tandem in the league, he would have three or four rings now. Its too much to factor in if we go into changing their roles and why they didn't win more. The ring count counts regardless but the better situation, which affects a players performance more, somehow doesn't count.

True, he deserves credit for what he does but in terms of assessing their abilities I am not using those stats to be so suggestive. It's akin to comparing a scorer from one team to another scorer from another team, where the former has to compete with several other players and the latter doesn't. The latter player may end up averaging more, but the ppgs stats don't mean he is better than the former. Circumstances mean that often players' talents are hidden or even shine even more.

I'm just saying, I don't put them on par as passers just because their assist tallies are similar. I think their circumstances, and the way they played, greatly influence that.



Bird said he saw the play develop in slow motion and you have to believe him. He was unique and great at it. Lebron's passing this year hasn't been as great as it was in the past, but are his quality of pass and vision a step down from Birds? I can't say for sure. Lebron played much faster than Bird did and his creativity and speed gets more quality opportunities for teammates. While I think his vision isn't as great (Bird has to be top five all time) its still exceptional. Lebron's passes are on the mark and only Magic had the same zip on it. I do think if Lebron had Celtic movement and their quality shooters from different parts on the floor, Lebron would be considered among the best passers ever. In terms of effect, he constantly does a lot with a little.

Well, I can't say how he'd be in the Celtics team for as good as the movement was I think Bird had a lot to do with that. Guys like Magic and Bird made other players love playing with them, making those runs, knowing those guys will get the pass to them somehow.

While I consider Lebron a very good passer of the ball, especially for someone who could simply bully the game by being finishing plays himself, I don't put him on that top tier. Then again, one can argue whether there is a diminishing gains element there - that even though there may be better passers than Lebron their returns for that extra talent isn't as much. I personally think it means Bird could have played the role Lebron tried to play in his first year with the Heat far better than he did; whereas Lebron had to basically take over this year. And that's the difference between the elite passers and the very good ones.


Bird moves from 5 to 8 on my GOAT list, quite a bit ahead of Lebron. Offensively Bird is the best to chess piece on the board for me or most like the Queen chess piece. He set the tone for mixing being versatile, mental, aggressive, fearless and knowing how to impose his will on the game. The '86 season was just "Wow."

Yeah, perfectly described for me. The Queen chess piece. He was so adaptable and dangerous. As I said earlier, Lebron has what it takes to get into the discussion after he decorates himself with more trophies. Ability-wise, he is already there. Just getting to that discussion though is tough; and I don't think he'll ever be the clear GOAT - because in my mind no one is - but he could surprise, so we'll see.


I've never really understood this argument. LeBron is ball dominant(or was, he's certainly NOT ball-dominant as a Heat) because he CAN be. He has the athleticism and dribbling ability for it. Bird did not. You wouldn't want him dribbling behind the 3pt line, trying to create possession-after-possession. He had to perfect his off-ball, triple-threat and post game to overcome his limited athleticism. Dribbling the ball more would have HURT his production, not help.

It depends, really. I don't think it's imperative to have your best player bring the ball out - others less skilled who can do that are aplenty. For Lebron's it's been something he's had to do because of the lack of a good-great PG. For me, though, basketball is slightly more to do with efficiency than volume. Could Lebron get as many assists if he played a pure SF role?

I wonder. In that sense, I really wonder whether being ball dominant helps his stats. Honestly, though, as I said before, you compare them as passers and they're different. A lot of the time Lebron is getting assists simply because he is being double-teamed and there is a free man - not necessarily because he has great vision or slick passing. Maybe in terms of dollars and cents that means one is as valuable as the other for assists, but in terms of actual passing I think it means one is on a higher skill-set.


Not that I consider LeBron a superior passer to Bird, but his success in posting high assist numbers on Team USA over the years is enough testament to his passing prowess. He doesn't need to dominate the ball to be a high APG guy. He has also averaged 6.6 apg the last 2 seasons while sharing the ball with Wade. That's plenty impressive.

It is but just how impressive? It also means he can get easier assists by playing with such an offensive threat.


As far as the thread's concerned, I don't think Bird ever impacted the game at the level '09 and '10 LeBron did. LeBron's an equivalent offensive player while being significantly better defensively. He also has better numbers in both forms of the game. Does anyone think Bird could lead those Cavalier teams to back-to-back 60+ wins? I sure as heck can't, but I can certainly see LeBron matching Bird's success in Boston.

Take a look at the mid-80s. Basically, Bird was the perfect player before his injuries, IMO. Did anything he wanted, to basically everyone, and he sure as hell never had a mental collapse. As for the turnaround - Bird already did that kind of turnaround in his rookie season.

[BlackVVaves]

When Lebron has a clear case above Bird, or as the greatest SF, he has a clear case over Jordan. It just isn't going to happen in all likelihood. If it does happen, then you are talking about the GOAT. Between the likes of Bird, Jordan, Magic, etc, there is hair's width and you can argue who is better than who. Even those guys aren't clearly better than each other. So if Lebron even enters that discussion he'll have done amazingly well.

As for now, I think Bird was a better shooter, passer, rebounder whereas Lebron is slightly better scorer and a better defender. I don't think Lebron is ever going to get to the level of Bird's fundamentals but if he can get the aggregates/volume, back that up with championships, then he'll be right alongside him.

The most rational, and mature, post in this entire thread.

[LeBird]

If LeBron wins another championship and Finals MVP. He will be in the same level as Bird who's a 3x NBA MVP, and 2x Finals MVP.

Christ it bugs me when people compare titles like that as if 1=1. Bird competed with Kareem, Magic and Jordan for his MVP titles - among others. 3 players that are usually in the top 5 of all time. Lebron never had that kind of competition. Lebron can be as great as Bird, or even better, but don't use that as your argument as it is just stupid.

[BlackVVaves]

Fixed...


Mind you, Bird was my favorite player of all time alongside Reggie, i have around 150-200 games with him.... but i am not simpleminded, i have watched every single game of Lebron and i can tell you with full comfort that Lebron is somewhat of a better overall individual player no matter how you twist and turn it... Bird will tell you the same (and he does, all the time, hell he even said Lebron will end up GOAT)...

All-time rankings are more about accolades rather than Individual talent... if that wasnt the case then Wilt Chamberlain or Oscar Robertson would have been GOATs

So because Bird said Lebron is better than him, it's probably true, is what you're saying?

Magic called Kobe the greatest Laker of all time. Is Kobe then the greatest Laker of all time? Because Magic said Kobe is, it's probably true?

[BrickingStar]

[Christ it bugs me when people compare titles like that as if 1=1. Bird competed with Kareem, Magic and Jordan for his MVP titles - among others. 3 players that are usually in the top 5 of all time. Lebron never had that kind of competition. Lebron can be as great as Bird, or even better, but don't use that as your argument as it is just stupid.
Look at how you try to compare lebron to bird


"As for now, I think Bird was a better shooter, passer, rebounder whereas Lebron is slightly better scorer and a better defender. I don't think Lebron is ever going to get to the level of Bird's fundamentals but if he can get the aggregates/volume, back that up with championships, then he'll be right alongside him."

Why mention bird is a better shooter and not mention lebron is a better striker/driver to the basket. And why mention lebron is slighty a better scorer and not say the same thing for bird being a slightly if not equal passer to lebron? LeBron is on birds level in passing he just isn't as flashy as other players to it mentioned.

[LeBird]

Look at how you try to compare lebron to bird
Why mention bird is a better shooter and not mention lebron is a better striker/driver to the basket. And why mention lebron is slighty a better scorer and not say the same thing for bird being a slightly if not equal passer to lebron? LeBron is on birds level in passing he just isn't as flashy as other players to it mentioned.

If Bird is a better shooter, but Lebron is a better scorer, then it stands to reason that he is a better driver to the basket. Although, I guess people could interpret that in saying that Lebron takes a lot of shots. However, I am assuming people actually watch basketball here and that wouldn't need explaining.

As for the passing: because IMO Bird is more than slightly better at passing, that's why.

Not sure why you're griping. I've clearly said that Lebron is, ability-wise, equal to the greats of the game.

[BrickingStar]

If Bird is a better shooter, but Lebron is a better scorer, then it stands to reason that he is a better driver to the basket. Although, I guess people could interpret that in saying that Lebron takes a lot of shots. However, I am assuming people actually watch basketball here and that wouldn't need explaining.

As for the passing: because IMO Bird is more than slightly better at passing, that's why.

Not sure why you're griping. I've clearly said that Lebron is, ability-wise, equal to the greats of the game.
Then say so instead of just posting clear bias like it's not close that bird is a better passer then lebron but it isn't when it comes to scoring. As for bold are you retarded? Do you think ISH is a good place for realistic bball discussion?

[LeBird]

Then say so instead of just posting clear bias like it's not close that bird is a better passer then lebron but it isn't when it comes to scoring. As for bold are you retarded? Do you think ISH is a good place for realistic bball discussion?

How is it clear bias in the way of arguing? I am saying it is my opinion that Bird is a much better passer than Lebron. So me mentioning that it's close - which is your opinion - defeats the purpose of my posting.

ISH, wherever, I am assuming the obvious doesn't need spelling out. Whereas for Bird it's likely that many posters didn't see him play or haven't seen many videos; it is less likely the case for Lebron.

FTR, where do you argue bball 'realistically'?

[Pointguard]

If someone came up to me and said there was a player that once averaged 30/9/9 and won 60 games without any other allstars I am only thinking its Lebron. If they say he contended for DPOY, then I know its Lebron. If they say the player played 4 defensive positions and equal that on offfense, it can't be anybody else but Lebron. I don't think anybody in the modern era can have a peak year like Lebron can. And Lebron could mimic any wing players year pretty easily (minus a year or two of Jordan's) and add something to it.

The Miami team is getting used to each other and Ray Allen will be spreading the floor. Lebron never had a consistent steady shooter. Lebron never had a player that could consistently spread the floor.