Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan (who isn't even the most skilled player ever)

[riseagainst]

Lebron is extremely talented, but no way his skills are even remotely in the top 10 conversation, at least not yet.
so stop it. :no:

[amfirst]

Lebron is extremely talented, but no way his skills are even remotely in the top 10 conversation, at least not yet.
so stop it. :no:

Watch him lose next year and all these dumb threads die w him.

[Vertical-24]

LeBron may be nearly as talented and definitely as physically gifted as MJ (if not more), but skilled? Come on, and that's not a stab at LeBron but as far as overall skillset...LeBron is clearly inferior. Maybe down the road LeBron may have a case for GOAT, he's one of the most complete, well rounded, and productive players our league has ever seen. But at this point, LeBrons offensive game relies more on sheer athleticism, size and brute force than anything else aside from his great passing abilitity and playmaking.

And I'll agree, while I believe MJ is the greatest, I also don't believe he's the most "skilled". Kobe has a case for being more skilled than Michael even though he is not as good as him
overall.

[tmacattack33]

LeBron may be nearly as talented and definitely as physically gifted as MJ (if not more), but skilled? Come on, and that's not a stab at LeBron but as far as overall skillset...LeBron is clearly inferior. Maybe down the road LeBron may have a case for GOAT, he's one of the most complete, well rounded, and productive players our league has ever seen. But at this point, LeBrons offensive game relies more on sheer athleticism, size and brute force than anything else aside from his great passing abilitity and playmaking.

And I'll agree, while I believe MJ is the greatest, I also don't believe he's the most "skilled". Kobe has a case for being more skilled than Michael even though he is not as good as him
overall.

Yeah great, and this 5'3 dude i know from my hood is the most skilled player on earth. I'd easily take Kwame Brown or Joel Anthony over him though.

[bizil]

LeBron may be nearly as talented and definitely as physically gifted as MJ (if not more), but skilled? Come on, and that's not a stab at LeBron but as far as overall skillset...LeBron is clearly inferior. Maybe down the road LeBron may have a case for GOAT, he's one of the most complete, well rounded, and productive players our league has ever seen. But at this point, LeBrons offensive game relies more on sheer athleticism, size and brute force than anything else aside from his great passing abilitity and playmaking.

And I'll agree, while I believe MJ is the greatest, I also don't believe he's the most "skilled". Kobe has a case for being more skilled than Michael even though he is not as good as him
overall.

I agree! Lebron scoring skillset is what holds him back some in the skill for skill argument. Sure he's a great scorer, but when u break down his scoring skillset, he's only truly great at finishing in transition and slashing to the rack. When u look at MJ's scoring skillset, he was a great slasher, great transition finisher, great postup guy, great midrange game, and had flawless footwork. The same can be said about Kobe as well. Now in terms of being a great passer, great rebounder, great defender,and great scorer all in one, Lebron is as good as any SF ever. It's just the scoring skillset that's not as varied.

In terms or being great or dominant, u don't have to be great at all technical facets of the game. It's about dominance and results. And Bron can stuff a stat sheet and provide versatility damn near unparalled in NBA history!

[coin24]

Lebrons footwork, post up, jump shot are all pretty shit to be honest. He's great at barreling in for layups and dunks though:applause:
So skills wise I'd say hes not that great..

But he is a great rebounder and passer. Decent defender, definitely can't defend 1-5 like some retards claim..


Jordan>Kobe>lebron..

[NumberSix]

OP mad like a muhfukka

[Quickening]

And yet his the best player in the game, and has been for multiple years.. Good stuff King James.

[inclinerator]

Yeah great, and this 5'3 dude i know from my hood is the most skilled player on earth. I'd easily take Kwame Brown or Joel Anthony over him though.
doubt it

[riseagainst]

Yeah great, and this 5'3 dude i know from my hood is the most skilled player on earth. I'd easily take Kwame Brown or Joel Anthony over him though.

terrible logic. No one said being the most skilled player implies being the best to ever play. Not to mention the 5'3 guy probably won't even play the same position as Kwame Brown, so what's your point? "I'd take a center over a guard if they have the same value to a team." no sh*t sherlock. :roll:

[riseagainst]

LeBron may be nearly as talented and definitely as physically gifted as MJ (if not more), but skilled? Come on, and that's not a stab at LeBron but as far as overall skillset...LeBron is clearly inferior. Maybe down the road LeBron may have a case for GOAT, he's one of the most complete, well rounded, and productive players our league has ever seen. But at this point, LeBrons offensive game relies more on sheer athleticism, size and brute force than anything else aside from his great passing abilitity and playmaking.

And I'll agree, while I believe MJ is the greatest, I also don't believe he's the most "skilled". Kobe has a case for being more skilled than Michael even though he is not as good as him
overall.

great post. Thanks for reinforcing what I said.

[Vertical-24]

Yeah great, and this 5'3 dude i know from my hood is the most skilled player on earth. I'd easily take Kwame Brown or Joel Anthony over him though.
Ummm...what are you trying to say? It damn sure doesn't seem to relate to my post. If anything, I admitted being skilled doesn't always translate into being better, and I never once put down LeBrons physical ability or talent. Did you even read what I said?

[riseagainst]

OP mad like a muhfukka

Lebron stans always say he's a top 5/10 most skilled players, which is wrong. Don't tell me you are a Lebron stan now. :rolleyes:

[cavsfanatic]

When people say skilled they mean his whole game not just scoring. He's the most skilled player I've ever seen and I'm 29 years old. Jordan is the greatest I've seen by far, but Lebron does everything either good or great. You add his size, power, and speed with his passing ability and defense then you have most skilled. He's a very good scorer while Jordan was great. Most you kids never seen MJ play in his prime.

[riseagainst]

And yet his the best player in the game, and has been for multiple years.. Good stuff King James.

no one's saying he isn't. But to say his skill level is on top is really far-fetched.
a player can be broken down into 3 attributes: talent, skill, IQ. Lebron happens to be at a very high level for talent and IQ, but his skills need much more work.

[riseagainst]

look at these butthurt lebron stans voting this thread as 1 star. :roll:

[OldSchoolBBall]

When people say skilled they mean his whole game not just scoring. He's the most skilled player I've ever seen and I'm 29 years old. Jordan is the greatest I've seen by far, but Lebron does everything either good or great. You add his size, power, and speed with his passing ability and defense then you have most skilled. He's a very good scorer while Jordan was great. Most you kids never seen MJ play in his prime.

Lebron is literally nowhere near as skilled as Jordan. Like, not even in the same universe.

[cavsfanatic]

Lebron is extremely talented, but no way his skills are even remotely in the top 10 conversation, at least not yet.
so stop it. :no:
Do you know what skills are? There has never been a player with the complete package as him. Everybody including his biggest hater in Skip Bayless recognizes this. Skills aren't something to say he's not top 10 yet lmao.

[riseagainst]

Do you know what skills are? There has never been a player with the complete package as him. Everybody including his biggest hater in Skip Bayless recognizes this. Skills aren't something to say he's not top 10 yet lmao.

you are a dumb f*ck. Skills and talent are different things.
Skills are things you acquire by experience/learning.
Talent is something you are born with.

Having a complete package just means his all around game, you retard. Has nothing to do with being the most skilled or not. Lebrontards on full ignition now. :lol

[cavsfanatic]

Lebron is literally nowhere near as skilled as Jordan. Like, not even in the same universe.
Skills are scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense right? Jordan is superior in scoring but IMO Lebron is better at rebounding and passing. Defense about even.. Lebron is severely overrated on Defense on how he guards every position because he get's torched from time to time. Jordan wasn't guarding many great scorers though.

Jordan is god to me but I'm not blind to players doing things better than him.

[cavsfanatic]

you are a dumb f*ck. Skills and talent are different things.
Skills are things you acquire by experience/learning.
Talent is something you are born with.
What skills don't Lebron have? Oh yea chill with the attitude over the internet tough guy. If you can't have a discussion without being a Internet gangster don't respond to my post and log off your mom's computer

[riseagainst]

Skills are scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense right? Jordan is superior in scoring but IMO Lebron is better at rebounding and passing. Defense about even.. Lebron is severely overrated on Defense on how he guards every position because he get's torched from time to time. Jordan wasn't guarding many great scorers though.

Jordan is god to me but I'm not blind to players doing things better than him.

stat geeks. :facepalm:

"bu bu but, Lebron averages more assists than Jordan, therefore he MUST be a better passer." :lol

[OldSchoolBBall]

Skills are scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense right? Jordan is superior in scoring but IMO Lebron is better at rebounding and passing. Defense about even.. Lebron is severely overrated on Defense on how he guards every position because he get's torched from time to time. Jordan wasn't guarding many great scorers though.

Jordan is god to me but I'm not blind to players doing things better than him.

No, skills aren't the same thing as the ABILITY to do those things. Ability is ability, and can be attributable to any number of factors (skill, natural ability a la Magic for passing etc.). First off, Jordan was a more skilled rebounder than Lebron (timing/positioning, footwork/boxing out, reading the ball in the air etc.) and there is a case to be made that Lebron isn't even a better rebounder than Jordan, only equal (I would certainly take Jordan over Lebron if I needed a big rebound). At best it's a marginal difference. Lebron may be a better passer - again, only marginally if so. And much of this is due to his natural vision/size as opposed to technical SKILL in passing. Defense is certainly NOT even - Jordan wins that handily, especially the SKILL areas of defense (footwork, rotations etc.). Jordan DESTROYS Lebron in terms of post game, footwork (in any context), off-ball movement, screen usage/setting, use of fakes, craftiness etc.

Honestly, it's not really close. ROOKIE Jordan was doing things skill-wise that you still don't see from Lebron TODAY.

[riseagainst]

What skills don't Lebron have? Oh yea chill with the attitude over the internet tough guy. If you can't have a discussion without being a Internet gangster don't respond to my post and log off your mom's computer

I'm chilling at my work. :pimp: relax moron, don't gotta go all personal. You think because Lebron is 27-7-7 his skills are on top. Most of his advantage right now are due to his talents (athleticism, strenghth, speed). He has no consistent jumper and post game. They aren't bad, but they aren't all time great levels. If you don't agree with this then you are in denial.

[PJR]

Lebron is literally nowhere near as skilled as Jordan. Like, not even in the same universe.

:facepalm

[EllisGW]

What I find shocking is that people don't know lebron was third in shooting percentage for jumpers in 2011 and above average in 2012.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Who cares how he scores? He shoots at over 50%. The skill arguement is only used by Kobe d.ick riders.

[Niquesports]

I agree! Lebron scoring skillset is what holds him back some in the skill for skill argument. Sure he's a great scorer, but when u break down his scoring skillset, he's only truly great at finishing in transition and slashing to the rack. When u look at MJ's scoring skillset, he was a great slasher, great transition finisher, great postup guy, great midrange game, and had flawless footwork. The same can be said about Kobe as well. Now in terms of being a great passer, great rebounder, great defender,and great scorer all in one, Lebron is as good as any SF ever. It's just the scoring skillset that's not as varied.

In terms or being great or dominant, u don't have to be great at all technical facets of the game. It's about dominance and results. And Bron can stuff a stat sheet and provide versatility damn near unparalled in NBA history!


IT's crazy how people compare players of different era's. Jordan came into the league not with the jumper he developed,not with the post moves, not with the hitting the open man for a winning bucket. He developed most of this in his 8-10 year in the league.Lebron had gotten better each year. Im not sayiing he is more skilled than MJ just saying it took MJ a few years to develop also.

[riseagainst]

Who cares how he scores? He shoots at over 50%. The skill arguement is only used by Kobe d.ick riders.


Lebron is NOT more skilled than Jordan

someone's insecure. :rolleyes:

[OldSchoolBBall]

IT's crazy how people compare players of different era's. Jordan came into the league not with the jumper he developed,not with the post moves, not with the hitting the open man for a winning bucket. He developed most of this in his 8-10 year in the league.Lebron had gotten better each year. Im not sayiing he is more skilled than MJ just saying it took MJ a few years to develop also.

Jordan as a rookie (certainly by his second or third full season) was more skilled than Lebron is now after 9 seasons.

[SilkkTheShocker]

someone's insecure. :rolleyes:

Insecure about what? Because Lebron doesn't shoot fadeaway jumpers all the time? Give me the more efficient, elite defending Lebron, anyday

[tmacattack33]

terrible logic. No one said being the most skilled player implies being the best to ever play. Not to mention the 5'3 guy probably won't even play the same position as Kwame Brown, so what's your point? "I'd take a center over a guard if they have the same value to a team." no sh*t sherlock. :roll:

My point was simple...it doesn't matter who is more "skilled". The only thing that matters is the player's overall ability.

And I just as easily could have said Derek Fisher and Mario Chalmers instead of Kwame Brown and Joel Anthony, so whatever you are getting at with the center vs guard thing doesn't even matter here.

[bizil]

IT's crazy how people compare players of different era's. Jordan came into the league not with the jumper he developed,not with the post moves, not with the hitting the open man for a winning bucket. He developed most of this in his 8-10 year in the league.Lebron had gotten better each year. Im not sayiing he is more skilled than MJ just saying it took MJ a few years to develop also.

I agree with u! And I'm just stating how I see Bron's game as of now and not what it can be. Bron is already epic in my book. Peak value wise, give me MJ, Magic, Bird, Kobe,and Bron as the top five perimeter players ever. I just want Bron to get that killer instinct scoring more consistently like Magic, MJ, Bird,and Kobe had. If anything I just want Bron to punish teams more on the block, which he is starting to do more anyway. I'm not saying he doesn't have it, but those four are or were bloodthirsty when it came to winning. Bron just needs more moments, which I'm confident he will have.

[bizil]

My point was simple...it doesn't matter who is more "skilled". The only thing that matters is the player's overall ability.

And I just as easily could have said Derek Fisher and Mario Chalmers instead of Kwame Brown and Joel Anthony, so whatever you are getting at with the center vs guard thing doesn't even matter here.

Right on the money! It's all about the impact u have on the floor. U don't have to be the most skilled in every technical facet of the game. U don't have to always be the most versatile, it's about your impact. Dan Majerle was more skilled and versatile than Reggie Miller. But who was the better player and in the HOF, REGGIE!! The reason why is because Miller is one of the greatest shooters ever. Who was able to translate that into averaging over 20 points a night several seasons. And it enabled him to stand behind ONLY MJ and Kobe in total career points amongst SG's. And when it comes to clutch shot shit, Miller is up there with MJ, West, and Bird. So it's about IMPACT!

[BigMic]

Lebrons footwork, post up, jump shot are all pretty shit to be honest. He's great at barreling in for layups and dunks though:applause:
So skills wise I'd say hes not that great..

But he is a great rebounder and passer. Decent defender, definitely can't defend 1-5 like some retards claim..


Jordan>Kobe>lebron..
Jordan>>>Kobe>LeBron

Better like that.

[Pointguard]

No, skills aren't the same thing as the ABILITY to do those things. Ability is ability, and can be attributable to any number of factors (skill, natural ability a la Magic for passing etc.). First off, Jordan was a more skilled rebounder than Lebron (timing/positioning, footwork/boxing out, reading the ball in the air etc.) and there is a case to be made that Lebron isn't even a better rebounder than Jordan, only equal (I would certainly take Jordan over Lebron if I needed a big rebound). At best it's a marginal difference. Lebron may be a better passer - again, only marginally if so. And much of this is due to his natural vision/size as opposed to technical SKILL in passing. Defense is certainly NOT even - Jordan wins that handily, especially the SKILL areas of defense (footwork, rotations etc.). Jordan DESTROYS Lebron in terms of post game, footwork (in any context), off-ball movement, screen usage/setting, use of fakes, craftiness etc.

Honestly, it's not really close. ROOKIE Jordan was doing things skill-wise that you still don't see from Lebron TODAY.

Lebron is a better rebounder than Jordan because of some know how on Lebron's part. He consistently gets gets more with less opportunities. Practical skill is related to know how, judgement and application. Skill without those three qualities is useless. As to how Lebron can have inferior timing, reading of the ball in the air and positioning yet consistently rebound better than the next guy even when he's guarding guys like Durant is when your delusion has gone into craziness.

No, Jordan wasn't the same passer Lebron is either. When Jordan was older he used wisdom and looked better than he did when he was younger but it didn't elevate him to some elite level. Jordan could create on over plays but he didn't use timing, delays, acutuity on whether to bounce or lob, to pass off the dribble, full court passes, superior positioning, know which player to get going or such. This hate first and make sense later is going to far!

Lebron learned to dribble, learned to pass, learned to rebound, learned to know the more complex defenses, learned to play different positions and their skillsets, learned to guard different positions and their skillset. Lebron learned when to use his superior judgment of when to pass and when to shoot. Lebron learned to how to integrate more players into the game. Lebron learned how to run a great fast break. Lebron learned his teammate's strengths. Lebron learned when let other's step up. Skill is moreso about applying what you know to get the desired outcome than it is about technical excellence.

From dictionary.com
1st meaning of skill.
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well.

You try using the same skill set to play or guard a point guard and a power forward and see how far it gets you. Versatility is the biggest manifestation of skill sets. Blake has Lebron's athleticism and strength but the skill set is different. If Iggy had Lebron's skill set he would be the second best player.

[RoundMoundOfReb]

LeBron may be nearly as talented and definitely as physically gifted as MJ (if not more), but skilled? Come on, and that's not a stab at LeBron but as far as overall skillset...LeBron is clearly inferior. Maybe down the road LeBron may have a case for GOAT, he's one of the most complete, well rounded, and productive players our league has ever seen. But at this point, LeBrons offensive game relies more on sheer athleticism, size and brute force than anything else aside from his great passing abilitity and playmaking.

And I'll agree, while I believe MJ is the greatest, I also don't believe he's the most "skilled". Kobe has a case for being more skilled than Michael even though he is not as good as him
overall.
:applause:

[Jax]

Kobe more skilled than Jordan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5TezxxjlfA
:coleman:

[Connor B]

I didn't even read OP because the thread title already contained two mistakes.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Lebron is a better rebounder than Jordan because of some know how on Lebron's part. He consistently gets gets more with less opportunities. Practical skill is related to know how, judgement and application. Skill without those three qualities is useless. As to how Lebron can have inferior timing, reading of the ball in the air and positioning yet consistently rebound better than the next guy even when he's guarding guys like Durant is when your delusion has gone into craziness.

Lebron averages one more rebound than Jordan (and far fewer offensive boards, which are the more valuable and difficult boards to get) despite being 2+" taller, 40-60 pounds heavier, and playing with worse rebounders his whole career than Jordan did and playing against far smaller and less physical front lines. As I said, that's a MARGINAL difference at best, and imo Jordan is pretty clearly the more skilled rebounder.


No, Jordan wasn't the same passer Lebron is either. When Jordan was older he used wisdom and looked better than he did when he was younger but it didn't elevate him to some elite level. Jordan could create on over plays but he didn't use timing, delays, acutuity on whether to bounce or lob, to pass off the dribble, full court passes, superior positioning, know which player to get going or such.

This is a joke. Again, Lebron may be a MARGINALLY better passer, but that's about it. The magnitude of Lebron's advantages at rebounding and passing is nothing next to the gulf that exists between them as scorers, especially when taking into account portability of scoring skills. Lebron is many team contexts would NOT be a 27+ ppg scorer. Prime Jordan ('90 onward) would be a 28+ ppg scorer in ANY team context. Jordan is also clearly the better defender - don't let Lebron's defensive hype fool you.

[riseagainst]

I didn't even read OP because the thread title already contained two mistakes.

then you're a moron. :applause:

[tmacattack33]

Lebron averages one more rebound than Jordan (and far fewer offensive boards, which are the more valuable and difficult boards to get) despite being 2+" taller, 40-60 pounds heavier, and playing with worse rebounders his whole career than Jordan did and playing against far smaller and less physical front lines. As I said, that's a MARGINAL difference at best, and imo Jordan is pretty clearly the more skilled rebounder.



This is a joke. Again, Lebron may be a MARGINALLY better passer, but that's about it. The magnitude of Lebron's advantages at rebounding and passing is nothing next to the gulf that exists between them as scorers, especially when taking into account portability of scoring skills. Lebron is many team contexts would NOT be a 27+ ppg scorer. Prime Jordan ('90 onward) would be a 28+ ppg scorer in ANY team context. Jordan is also clearly the better defender - don't let Lebron's defensive hype fool you.

Not really.

Lebron is a top 5 passer in the game today, maybe top 3. He's the best non-PG passer since Larry Bird.

MJ was an average passer.

[Brunch@Five]

Lebron clearly is not as skilled as Jordan. Just like Shaq was not as skilled as Hakeem. Doesn't make either better or worse than the other.

[lilgodfather1]

Jordan was a skilled scorer, but that's all he's got on LeBron. Scoring is less than half of the game. Defense, rebounding, passing, and scoring are the four main skills in basketball and LeBron is better at three of them than Jordan.

[tmacattack33]

Lebron averages one more rebound than Jordan (and far fewer offensive boards, which are the more valuable and difficult boards to get) despite being 2+" taller, 40-60 pounds heavier, and playing with worse rebounders his whole career than Jordan did and playing against far smaller and less physical front lines. As I said, that's a MARGINAL difference at best, and imo Jordan is pretty clearly the more skilled rebounder.



This is a joke. Again, Lebron may be a MARGINALLY better passer, but that's about it. The magnitude of Lebron's advantages at rebounding and passing is nothing next to the gulf that exists between them as scorers, especially when taking into account portability of scoring skills. Lebron is many team contexts would NOT be a 27+ ppg scorer. Prime Jordan ('90 onward) would be a 28+ ppg scorer in ANY team context. Jordan is also clearly the better defender - don't let Lebron's defensive hype fool you.


Also, I'd like to point out the ridiculousness of your scoring "portability" claims. You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.

We have seen Lebron score 30 ppg as the main man on a team which surrounded him with role players, and we've also seen him put up 30 ppg alongside two other star offensive players.

(Also, we never even saw Jordan as a 30 ppg scorer on another team. This doesn't matter as much as the above point about Lebron though, since Jordan likely would have been a 30 ppg scorer no matter what team he was on).

So, wtf are you talking about?

[tmacattack33]

Lebron clearly is not as skilled as Jordan. Just like Shaq was not as skilled as Hakeem. Doesn't make either better or worse than the other.

Exactly.

I really have no clue why people even care about this stuff.

There will never be a game where people's "non-skills" (all the abilities that you consider not to be skills...whether that's athleticism and size or whatever) are going to magically be stripped away from them.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Also, I'd like to point out the ridiculousness of your scoring "portability" claims. You have absolutely no evidence to support that claim.

We have seen Lebron score 30 ppg as the main man on a team which surrounded him with role players, and we've also seen him put up 30 ppg alongside two other star offensive players.

(Also, we never even saw Jordan as a 30 ppg scorer on another team. This doesn't matter as much as the above point about Lebron though, since Jordan likely would have been a 30 ppg scorer no matter what team he was on).

So, wtf are you talking about?

Really? Because I could have swore Lebron has averaged 26.9 ppg since joining Miami...

And yes, Jordan's scoring is more portable simply b ecause he was vastly more skilled as a scorer, especially off the ball, in the post, and as a shooter. This is not even arguable. Those skills would allow him to fit in to more team contexts than Lebron scoring-wise. Lebron in the triangle doesn't average > 26 ppg imo because he wouldn't have the ball in his hands nearly as much.

[guy]

MJ was an average passer.

Wow thats idiotic.

[riseagainst]

Exactly.

I really have no clue why people even care about this stuff.

There will never be a game where people's "non-skills" (all the abilities that you consider not to be skills...whether that's athleticism and size or whatever) are going to magically be stripped away from them.

why are lebron-stans going off on a digression? The thread clearly states a comparison in their skill levels not who's a better overall player. :lol
talk about insecurities.

[tmacattack33]

why are lebron-stans going off on a digression? The thread clearly states a comparison in their skill levels not who's a better overall player. :lol
talk about insecurities.

When I said it doesn't matter who the more skilled player is, I wasn't even talking or thinking about Lebron.

It just doesn't matter, so I made a post stating that it doesn't matter.

[tmacattack33]

Wow thats idiotic.

Not really.

What's idiotic is thinking that one person would be great at all aspects of something. MJ had a 9.5 or 10 ability in a lot of things, passing just wasn't one of them.

[alleykat]

nope not really as skilled as jordan.....

one of the best players i've seen for sure, but definitely not the most skilled....

[Indian guy]

Lebron in the triangle doesn't average > 26 ppg imo because he wouldn't have the ball in his hands nearly as much.

This is preposterous. LeBron has averaged over 26 ppg on awesome efficiency the last 2 seasons while playing alongside another ball-dominant guard(Wade) and an All Star PF. All this under an offensively challenged coach without ever being remotely ball dominant. He has a career average of 27.6 ppg. He won't suddenly stop scoring at his usual level just because he's in an offense that requires more ball and player movement than your average team. Players adjust or heck, just look at Kobe, he was as ball dominant as any non PG in the league under Phil from 09-11. There's no rule that a scorer has to play like MJ in order to be a high scorer in the triangle.

[guy]

Not really.

What's idiotic is thinking that one person would be great at all aspects of something. MJ had a 9.5 or 10 ability in a lot of things, passing just wasn't one of them.

AVERAGE? An average passer is Kevin Durant or Andre Iguadola. Jordan was worlds better then them in passing. Even if you are going by assist numbers, which is a flawed way anyway, he clearly wasn't average.

What's idiotic about that if its entirely possible? Overall, I wouldn't say he was great at everything cause he wasn't great at rebounding, but for his position he definitely was. And he's not the only player I'd put in that category.

[Pointguard]

Lebron averages one more rebound than Jordan (and far fewer offensive boards, which are the more valuable and difficult boards to get) despite being 2+" taller, 40-60 pounds heavier,
So why doesn't Jordan get more assist then??? One rebound per game isn't that small: Lebron gets one less basket per game and Lebron doesn't really try to score with most of his energy and takes like three less shots per game than Jordan. Scoring then, was a whole lot easier than now, too. I will concede that Jordan was the better scorer. But when Lebron rebounds more and averages double digits in playoff runs and while guarding the greatest shooter in the game, he should get props.

Jordan is GOAT for sure but he isn't one size fits all for all GOAT questions. It gets crazy after awhile. Jordan wasn't an elite passer or rebounder. He was very skilled and fundamental in those areas but nobody cares about that if it can't be applied: Nobody would talk about Dirk being a skilled shooter if he misses.



This is a joke. Again, Lebron may be a MARGINALLY better passer, but that's about it. The magnitude of Lebron's advantages at rebounding and passing is nothing next to the gulf that exists between them as scorers, especially when taking into account portability of scoring skills. Lebron is many team contexts would NOT be a 27+ ppg scorer. Prime Jordan ('90 onward) would be a 28+ ppg scorer in ANY team context. Jordan is also clearly the better defender - don't let Lebron's defensive hype fool you.
Lebron has way too many ocassions where he scored 20 points in the first half and then just set his teammates up in the second. If Lebron set out to score like Jordan did he would average 29 ppg in any setting/context. He just has a different set of priorities based on his skill set and options. Scottie could have scored more and should have been scoring more. When Scottie lead his team in every category Jordan came back on the team and disrupted Scottie's flow (knocked off 4 ppg on his scoring) and took over a little too much. His passing game was a little off, perhaps due to the layoff, but he wasn't always balanced. That's another skill that Lebron was just better at. Lebron has the best balance of scoring and integrating others the league has seen. Certainly this doesn't make him better than Jordan. Jordan had very few flaws and was remarkable in that regards.

[OldSchoolBBall]

This is preposterous. LeBron has averaged over 26 ppg on awesome efficiency the last 2 seasons while playing alongside another ball-dominant guard(Wade) and an All Star PF. All this under an offensively challenged coach without ever being remotely ball dominant.

You're going to try and tell me that he's not more ball dominant than Jordan was on the '91-'93 Bulls and especially the '96-'98 Bulls? Come on...


He has a career average of 27.6 ppg. He won't suddenly stop scoring at his usual level just because he's in an offense that requires more ball and player movement than your average team. Players adjust or heck, just look at Kobe, he was as ball dominant as any non PG in the league under Phil from 09-11. There's no rule that a scorer has to play like MJ in order to be a high scorer in the triangle.

A couple of things:

- Kobe took a lot of shots, but wasn't as ball dominant in '09-'11 as Lebron is even in Miami. Shot numbers and ball dominance are different things. I'm talking about the amount of time a player has the ball in their hands per possession on average.

- Kobe was able to be more ball dominant than Jordan and still have success in the triangle for two reasons: 1) They didn't really run the triangle the way the Bulls did (the Kobe/Gasol P&R was much more prevalent than any P&R or non-triangle play was for Chicago); and 2) his team was constructed differently and didn't have Pippen, whose effectiveness would be neutralized somewhat by a player who was more ball dominant than Jordan (i.e., Pippen would be less effective alongside Kobe than with Jordan, and especially alongside Lebron).

And yes, if you ask Lebron to play off the ball as much as MJ did, he would not average >27 ppg (perhaps 26 was a tad low).


So why doesn't Jordan get more assist then??? One rebound per game isn't that small

Jordan didn't get more assists because he was playing in an equal opportunity offense, playing off the ball a ton more than Lebron, and was playing alongside another 5.5-7.0 apg player who handled the ball as much or more than he did. Even if you merely removed Pippen from those teams, Jordan's apg would jump to ~7 per game, never mind if you made the other stylistic changes I noted (team offense, personal playing style, ball dominance etc.). That's why Lebron's apg dropped from 8.6 the last year in Cleveland to 7.0 and 6.2 ast the last two years in Miami - and notice how Wade's ast/gm have decreased with Lebron's arrival also, down from 6.5-7.5 per season to just 4.6 with Lebron. That's because Lebron's ball dominance takes away from Wade's own ball dominance. Now how many apg would Lebron average playing in the triangle and while allowing a guy like Pippen to handle the ball and average 6+ apg? Definitely not what he's averaging even in Miami. He'd average around 6 apg imo, which is basically in line with MJ. Those Bulls also had two other ~4 apg players along with MJ/Pippen, to drive that point home.

And yes, one rebound per game is a very small thing when you consider the fact that Lebron is 2+" taller, 40-60 pounder heavier, has played with poorer rebounders than Jordan did, and is playing against much smaller and weaker front lines (the era of the pansy stretch 4 and a dearth of true centers). Hence why I believe that Jordan is the more SKILLED rebounder - because my eyes can SEE that.

[tmacattack33]

AVERAGE? An average passer is Kevin Durant or Andre Iguadola. Jordan was worlds better then them in passing. Even if you are going by assist numbers, which is a flawed way anyway, he clearly wasn't average.

What's idiotic about that if its entirely possible? Overall, I wouldn't say he was great at everything cause he wasn't great at rebounding, but for his position he definitely was. And he's not the only player I'd put in that category.'

I said it was idiotic because you said what I said was idiotic. LOL.

Certainly, I guess it's possible for someone to be great at everything, but it'd be ridiculously rare.


And Igoudala is a great passer (probably in the top 90th percentile of passers in the league). He's been called a poor man's version of Lebron. Philly hasn't been in the spot light since the Iverson days though, so it's fine if you didn't recognize his great passing skills. You probably don't see him play much and it's not your fault.

[Indian guy]

You're going to try and tell me that he's not more ball dominant than Jordan was on the '91-'93 Bulls and especially the '96-'98 Bulls? Come on...

I'm not saying that. I'm saying if he could average 27 ppg on 52% shooting the last 2 seasons on an anemically paced team while being surrounded by another ball-dominant Top 5 player(Wade) and an All Star big man, I would say it's ludicrous to say he wouldn't average his usual numbers in a more "equal opportunity offense". Especially if surrounded by the offensive talent MJ had in Chicago, which was inferior core-scoring wise compared to Miami's Big 3.


Kobe took a lot of shots, but wasn't as ball dominant in '09-'11 as Lebron is even in Miami.

I completely disagree with this. From about January onwards of 2011, LeBron forgave his ball-dominant style. Partly due to athletic regression and partly to open the game up for his star teammates. Miami was the league's #1 ranked offense during the latter half of the 10-11 season. '10 and '11 Kobe was comfortably more ball-dominant in the triangle than LeBron's been as a Heat.


They didn't really run the triangle the way the Bulls did (the Kobe/Gasol P&R was much more prevalent than any P&R or non-triangle play was for Chicago)

Exactly. So why wouldn't the triangle be tweaked to LeBron's strengths if he played in it? You are working under the assumption that every athletic swingnmen would need to play like MJ to score big in the triangle, but it doesn't have to be that way. Phil would tailor the offense to LeBron's style of play.


And yes, if you ask Lebron to play off the ball as much as MJ did, he would not average >27 ppg (perhaps 26 was a tad low).

MJ didn't have to play as much off-ball as he did(look at Kobe in the triangle), he just CHOSE to play that way because that was his biggest strength as a basketball player - catching and attacking from the triple threat, be it off hard-dribble pull ups or off catch n shoots. The offense was tailor made for his strengths as a basketball player.

[Ikill]

I'm not saying that. I'm saying if he could average 27 ppg on 52% shooting the last 2 seasons on an anemically paced team while being surrounded by another ball-dominant Top 5 player(Wade) and an All Star big man, I would say it's ludicrous to say he wouldn't average his usual numbers in a more "equal opportunity offense". Especially if surrounded by the offensive talent MJ had in Chicago, which was inferior core-scoring wise compared to Miami's Big 3.



I completely disagree with this. From about January onwards of 2011, LeBron forgave his ball-dominant style. Partly due to athletic regression and partly to open the game up for his star teammates. Miami was the league's #1 ranked offense during the latter half of the 10-11 season. '10 and '11 Kobe was comfortably more ball-dominant in the triangle than LeBron's been as a Heat.



Exactly. So why wouldn't the triangle be tweaked to LeBron's strengths if he played in it? You are working under the assumption that every athletic swingnmen would need to play like MJ to score big in the triangle, but it doesn't have to be that way. Phil would tailor the offense to LeBron's style of play.



MJ didn't have to play as much off-ball as he did(look at Kobe in the triangle), he just CHOSE to play that way because that was his biggest strength as a basketball player - catching and attacking from the triple threat, be it off hard-dribble pull ups or off catch n shoots. The offense was tailor made for his strengths as a basketball player.
Wade hasn't been ball dominant the last two seasons Lebron has kept his game pretty much the same. Wade and Bosh are the ones that have changed their games to help Lebron be more comfortable

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Wade hasn't been ball dominant the last two seasons Lebron has kept his game pretty much the same. Wade and Bosh are the ones that have changed their games to help Lebron be more comfortable

Yep. Even Wade said he deferred to Lebron, or welcomed being his sidekick.

[RRR3]

AVERAGE? An average passer is Kevin Durant or Andre Iguadola. Jordan was worlds better then them in passing. Even if you are going by assist numbers, which is a flawed way anyway, he clearly wasn't average.

What's idiotic about that if its entirely possible? Overall, I wouldn't say he was great at everything cause he wasn't great at rebounding, but for his position he definitely was. And he's not the only player I'd put in that category.
:kobe:
And Durant is a garbage passer, he's a willing passer but he sucks at it.

[TheMan]

Shaq wasn't the most skilled big man but he dominated like a pimp mofo...

[Pointguard]

Technical skill is at the level a lot of yall are talking about.

All applied knowledge that is active in a sport and efficient is a skill. Some people are more technical skilled than others, not necessarily better. Al Jefferson is the most technically skilled post scorer out there, or at least at center. Blake the second best and has the most range with Howard the least technically skilled of the three. But scoring is more of a sure thing the opposite way around. By definitition Howard can be said to use his know how better than Jefferson which fits in with the first definition of skill in most dictionaries. Oxford dictionary

Definition of skill
noun

the ability to do something well; expertise:


The goal is more important than the mechanics by most definitions of SKILL. Tiger Woods could have a less than perfect swing, but he is usually more skilled than the competition when he's on his game. However, other players might be more technically skilled, which is a difference. Foot movement for a rebound is good but a serious of other elements have to factored in. The overall formula, which is subject to an plethora of differences, is more important than the mastery of three or four technical skills.

[bizil]

Technical skill is at the level a lot of yall are talking about.

All applied knowledge that is active in a sport and efficient is a skill. Some people are more technical skilled than others, not necessarily better. Al Jefferson is the most technically skilled post scorer out there, or at least at center. Blake the second best and has the most range with Howard the least technically skilled of the three. But scoring is more of a sure thing the opposite way around. By definitition Howard can be said to use his know how better than Jefferson which fits in with the first definition of skill in most dictionaries. Oxford dictionary

Definition of skill
noun

the ability to do something well; expertise:


The goal is more important than the mechanics by most definitions of SKILL. Tiger Woods could have a less than perfect swing, but he is usually more skilled than the competition when he's on his game. However, other players might be more technically skilled, which is a difference. Foot movement for a rebound is good but a serious of other elements have to factored in. The overall formula, which is subject to an plethora of differences, is more important than the mastery of three or four technical skills.

Well said sir! I feel if u are great at scoring, then clearly u are very skilled at it. Lebron can score as good as anybody in the L. He's won scoring titles and stays near the top in the scoring column. But compared to Durant, Kobe, Dirk, and Melo, his scoring skillset isn't as good. And he's not quite as clutch, even though I feel Bron has shown clutch moments. So if u lean to Durant, Kobe, Bron, or Melo scoring wise because of those reasons, then that's fine. But Bron is still on their level in terms of putting the ball in the hoop results wise or PPG wise.

Take Clyde Drexler for example. He dribbled with his head down and didn't have great dexterity with the ball. But he ran a great fast break and has put up 7-8 assist seasons before. He's one of the very best non PG passers of all time. So I consider Clyde a very skilled passer and finisher. Even though on a technical level it's not textbook or very fundamentally sound.

[Lebronn23]

OP is a failure :lol

[RRR3]

Technical skill is at the level a lot of yall are talking about.

All applied knowledge that is active in a sport and efficient is a skill. Some people are more technical skilled than others, not necessarily better. Al Jefferson is the most technically skilled post scorer out there, or at least at center. Blake the second best and has the most range with Howard the least technically skilled of the three. But scoring is more of a sure thing the opposite way around. By definitition Howard can be said to use his know how better than Jefferson which fits in with the first definition of skill in most dictionaries. Oxford dictionary

Definition of skill
noun

the ability to do something well; expertise:


The goal is more important than the mechanics by most definitions of SKILL. Tiger Woods could have a less than perfect swing, but he is usually more skilled than the competition when he's on his game. However, other players might be more technically skilled, which is a difference. Foot movement for a rebound is good but a serious of other elements have to factored in. The overall formula, which is subject to an plethora of differences, is more important than the mastery of three or four technical skills.
:biggums:

[riseagainst]

OP is a failure :lol

# of people who agreed with me > # morons who didn't

[Pointguard]

:biggums:
Why