NBA Finals: 2000-02 Diesel vs 1991-93 MJ

[Hands of Iron]

Two of the most dominant forces in the history of the sport, the only two players to win three consecutive Finals MVP Awards since it's inception (a feat Jordan accomplished twice obviously). This isn't a question as to who was the better, more accomplished player but rather specifically who had the more dominant performance(s) on the game's biggest stage? Shaq is maligned for being an underachiever with a poor work ethic, but anybody who witnessed him at his peak knows his claim as The MDE is a legitimate one.

This is about as good as it gets. These are the two greatest Finals Performers Ever. Do not whine over Center opposition when O'Neal put 28/12/6 on 60% on Hakeem Olajuwon and 27/11/3 on 63% on Ben Wallace and one of the greatest defensive teams in the history of the sport in the 1995 and 2004 Finals, neither of which came at his peak. The 2001 DPOY Mutombo did little to make a bit of difference in between. Shaq deserves this comparison, period.

DIESEL, Challenger

2000 Finals: 38.0 PPG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.7 BPG, 61.6% FG
2001 Finals: 33.0 PPG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.4 BPG, 57.2% FG
2002 Finals: 36.0 PPG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.8 BPG, 59.5% FG

3-Year Averages: 35.9 PPG, 15.2 RPG, 3.5 APG, 3.0 BPG, 59.5% FG

JORDAN, Champion

1991 Finals: 31.2 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 11.4 APG, 2.8 SPG, 55.8% FG
1992 Finals: 35.8 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.7 SPG, 52.6% FG
1993 Finals: 41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 50.8% FG

3-Year Averages: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 52.6% FG

Who's it gonna be?

[eliteballer]

Why is Shaq the challenger....

[KyrieTheFuture]

Impossible to compare IMO. GOAT big and wing performance easily but I can't say who was better.

[Odinn]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240213

[keep-itreal]

I won't choose cuz both are. But watching this video made me feel sorry for Dikembe Motombo. Shaq was dunking on him like he wasn't there
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKICLZfKMG0

[D.J.]

You really can't compare the two because they play different positions, but let's put it this way:


When MJ played in the Finals, you knew there was no way he was going to lose. As dominant as Shaq was, you just didn't feel that way about him.

[Smoke117]

Shaqs performances are better...but they are also against much weaker teams barring the beat up lakers of 91. Shaq also did more defensively as he was the anchor of the Laker defenses. He was no Hakeem Olajuwon, but he still made a bigger impact defensively for the Lakers in the finals than Jordan did for the Bulls. I think I just take Jordan because the Bulls actually played much better teams in the Blazers and Suns. The Sixers and Nets are a joke compared to them.

[Smoke117]

You really can't compare the two because they play different positions, but let's put it this way:


When MJ played in the Finals, you knew there was no way he was going to lose. [B]As dominant as Shaq was, you just didn't feel that way about him.

:roll: You have be joking? Maybe in 2000, but vs the Sixers and the Nets? Who in their right mind gave them a chance?

[D.J.]

:roll: You have be joking? Maybe in 2000, but vs the Sixers and the Nets? Who in their right mind gave them a chance?


And you just proved my point. When Jordan was in the Finals, there was no doubt about him winning.

[Hands of Iron]

Sure, you can compare the two. Basketball doesn't follow a pound-for-pound guideline. Impact is Impact. It's no coincidence most of the Top 10 consists of Bigs. What's happening here is Shaq matched the scoring volume on his typically higher efficiency. Throw in the board destruction and his presence in the paint on defense and you've got a very good case he was more dominant.

Give him his respect. :confusedshrug:

[LongLiveTheKing]

Two of the most dominant forces in the history of the sport, the only two players to win three consecutive Finals MVP Awards since it's inception (a feat Jordan accomplished twice obviously). This isn't a question as to who was the better, more accomplished player but rather specifically who had the more dominant performance(s) on the game's biggest stage? Shaq is maligned for being an underachiever with a poor work ethic, but anybody who witnessed him at his peak knows his claim as The MDE is a legitimate one.

This is about as good as it gets. These are the two greatest Finals Performers Ever. Do not whine over Center opposition when O'Neal put 28/12/6 on 60% on Hakeem Olajuwon and 27/11/3 on 63% on Ben Wallace and one of the greatest defensive teams in the history of the sport in the 1995 and 2004 Finals, neither of which came at his peak. The 2001 DPOY Mutombo did little to make a bit of difference in between. Shaq deserves this comparison, period.

DIESEL, Challenger

2000 Finals: 38.0 PPG, 16.7 RPG, 2.3 APG, 2.7 BPG, 61.6% FG
2001 Finals: 33.0 PPG, 15.8 RPG, 4.8 APG, 3.4 BPG, 57.2% FG
2002 Finals: 36.0 PPG, 12.3 RPG, 3.8 APG, 2.8 BPG, 59.5% FG

3-Year Averages: 35.9 PPG, 15.2 RPG, 3.5 APG, 3.0 BPG, 59.5% FG

JORDAN, Champion

1991 Finals: 31.2 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 11.4 APG, 2.8 SPG, 55.8% FG
1992 Finals: 35.8 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 6.5 APG, 1.7 SPG, 52.6% FG
1993 Finals: 41.0 PPG, 8.5 RPG, 6.3 APG, 1.7 SPG, 50.8% FG

3-Year Averages: 36.3 PPG, 6.6 RPG, 7.9 APG, 2.0 SPG, 52.6% FG

Who's it gonna be?
Why do some people think Shaq didn't carry Kobe? :wtf:

[DuMa]

Shaq didnt want to deal with MJ's Bulls when he got swept in 1996. Thats why he left to the west. So MJ easily

[Smoke117]

And you just proved my point. When Jordan was in the Finals, there was no doubt about him winning.

Actually a lot people thought the 92 Blazers and 93 Suns had as good as chance as anyone. Remember the Bulls were just coming off of a 7 game series with the Knicks and a 6 game series with the Cavs in 92 and in 93 they had fallen off with players not jelling anymore (Pippen and Grant in particular), and going down 0-2 to the Knicks in the ECF. They don't even get out that series with the Knicks if not for Pippen who was clearly the MVP of that series. The Suns were not being taken lightly by anyone. Get off Jordans jock.

[jlip]

And you just proved my point. When Jordan was in the Finals, there was no doubt about him winning.

While they were favored because of the homecourt in '91, after the game 1 loss it was not a foregone conclusion that the Bulls were going to win the series especially after Magic had just led the Lakers to an upset series win over the Blazers. Also MJ had not developed that indomitable winner's reputation by then.

[Hands of Iron]

Why is Shaq the challenger....

Eh, out of respect for Jordan. Came before. Generally regarded as the greatest Finals performer ever by most. Nobody brings it to him there quite like Shaq. It's not like Dan Majerle or Kevin Johnson were any more fit to guard Jordan. What the hell else could you want than A Center who won that season's DPOY to Get It that nobody was stopping Shaq. Specified the years and people are talking 1996. Again, 1995 & 2004 as well neither at his best and still...Do we wanna take it to 1996 and Gary Payton? I bet Shaq was better against the three ATG defenders he met in the Finals. He gets shit on a little far too often.

[LikeABosh]

I think it's just ridiculous to compare a center to a guard. Why do NBA fans do this? In the NFL people rank the players based on their positions. It's like comparing Ray Lewis to Peyton Manning. Stupid.

[riseagainst]

Why do some people think Shaq didn't carry Kobe? :wtf:

:facepalm

[LikeABosh]

If I had to choose I'd take Shaq though. I go by the rule of always taking the bigman. Shaq was just too dominant those years. You HAD to double team him, it wasn't an option. He was just too much for the opposition.

[crisoner]

Ummm this is like comparing apples to Oranges.

Both dominate both put up great numbers.

I say Shaq though around that time was the most dominate force in B-ball history though. So I will have to go with the big man.

[crisoner]

Why do some people think Shaq didn't carry Kobe? :wtf:

Did Jordan carry Pippen?
Did Magic carry Worthy and Kareem?
Did Bird carry McHale and Parish?

Shut the f*ck up with that BS already.

[Hands of Iron]

I think it's just ridiculous to compare a center to a guard. Why do NBA fans do this? In the NFL people rank the players based on their positions. It's like comparing Ray Lewis to Peyton Manning. Stupid.

In the NFL, there are 22 starters on a single team....

And not really; In fact, it's done virtually all the time when people discuss the current top 10 players in the league or put up their numerically ordered greatest players list, citing numbers and accolades that were won by comparing players regardless of their positions.

Why do this? Because they are the only two players to win three consecutive Finals MVPs while putting up some of the most impressive Finals performances and series of the modern era and one of them is widely considered the greatest basketball player that ever lived. They were even the same age span over these runs (27-29). Jordan overcomes most bigs because of his immense scoring volume that is typically greater than any big man on damn near comparable efficiency and his versatility as a scorer making him a more capable closer, not to mention his being a better passer/playmaker and reeling in a solid 6-8 boards a game. And you thought he was being picked on? He shits on most.

[KyrieTheFuture]

It's more like comparing QB's to RB's. Score in totally different ways.

[Asukal]

I'd take Jordan but you couldn't go wrong with either. My only reason is Shaq has a weakness in FT which can be exploited in certain stretches of the game, Jordan has none. :cheers:

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan - comparable/better production, more able to raise his game on command when needed (see: game 1 of the '92 Finals, game 4 of the '93 Finals, game 2 of the '91 Finals), provided all the 4th quarter and clutch heroics that Shaq needed Kobe for, was not a liability in any way (such as FT shooting), and faced far better teams. He also had expended way more energy defensively, having to guard Magic/Scott, Majerle/KJ, and Drexler/Porter, which was worlds better than the offensive scrubs Shaq guarded in the Finals. Jordan had better intangibles, too.

More than the numbers, though, you have to realize how Jordan completely imposed his will on every Finals series:

- In a must-win game 2 vs. LA in Chicago after an opening loss, he plays perhaps the best Finals game of all time with 33 pts/7 reb/13 ast on 15-18 FG, including 13 consecutive made FG's capped off by "the move."

- In game 1 of the '92 Finals, after media talk about how Clyde is on the same level as Jordan, he comes out and demolishes the Blazers for 35 first half points on like 14-19 FG, including an NBA record 6 threes in the half. He does this despite sitting out 7:00 of the half. Could have easily been a 42+ point half with how on fire he was. On the biggest stage. Against his main rival. All while neutralizing Drexler defensively. Cruises in the second half in a Bulls romp and finishes with 39 pts/11 ast.

- Averages 41/9/6+/51% FG vs. Phoenix and pours in 55 points in game 4 with Phoenix having a chance to tie the series. Scores all of Chicago's 14 fourth quarter points in the clinching game 6 before Paxson's jumper to seal it. On top of all this, he averaged nearly 46 mpg this series. Superhuman stamina.

That said, three-peat Shaq was beast, and it's definitely close. He's without a doubt the second greatest Finals performer of all time.

[KOBE143]

MJ

Shaq competition was a joke.. The real finals there happened in the west where Kobe performed better and dominated most of the game.. Kobe dominates tougher opponent (Spurs, Portland, Kings) while Shaq dominates weaker ones (Sixers, Nets).. To all people saying Shaq carried Kobe are idiot..

[DirtySanchez]

MJ

Shaq competition was a joke.. The real finals there happened in the west where Kobe performed better and dominated most of the game.. Kobe dominates tougher opponent (Spurs, Portland, Kings) while Shaq dominates weaker ones (Sixers, Nets).. To all people saying Shaq carried Kobe are idiot..

This I really true. Kobe always had huge games in the WCF. Even in 09 and 10.

[tpols]

Shaq was going up against some of the weakest offensive frontcourts of all time.. Past prime mutumbo, and Dale Davis, and Jason collin s/Todd mccallough.. No competition. Those ecf champs were so weak. I'd take a mj in a second.

[Jacks3]

Why do some people think Shaq didn't carry Kobe? :wtf:
Probably because Kobe put up 22/6/5/2 with elite defense in 2000, 29/7/6/2 in 2001 with elite defense, and 27/6/5/2 with elite defense in 02.

:coleman:

[tpols]

Probably because Kobe put up 22/6/5/2 with elite defense in 2000, 29/7/6/2 in 2001 with elite defense, and 27/6/5/2 with elite defense in 02.

:coleman:
La would've lost to Portland in 00 if not for kobes game 7.. They would've never beat the spurs in the following years either. Shaq and chuck would be arguing with each other on tnt right now for whose the biggest loser of all time if not for bean. Don't get it twisted, shaqs cut from the same mold as vc.. He never had any heart and cruised on pure talent his own whole career.

[Hands of Iron]

La would've lost to Portland in 00 if not for kobes game 7

Why is it only Game 7 that matters? Considering the extreme lengths Portland went to stop Shaq and the attention he drew, Kobe should've at least had the better series. He didn't, and it wasn't really particularly close. I can see why Kobe fans wax on about it though considering he also heaved up brilliance such as:

13/3/6 on 4-9
12/4/2 on 2-9
18/4/7 on 5-15
17/5/4 on 4-13

You ****in serious? :lol They would've been toast long before that.


They would've never beat the spurs in the following years either.

Probably not in 2002, really the only series throughout the entire 3-peat in which Kobe outplayed Shaq by a sizable margin. People make the biggest crow about that 2001 series when Shaq put up 27/13/3 himself.


Shaq and chuck would be arguing with each other on tnt right now for whose the biggest loser of all time if not for bean. Don't get it twisted, shaqs cut from the same mold as vc.. He never had any heart and cruised on pure talent his own whole career.

:oldlol: :rolleyes:

[Hands of Iron]

MJ

Shaq competition was a joke.. The real finals there happened in the west where Kobe performed better and dominated most of the game.. Kobe dominates tougher opponent (Spurs, Portland, Kings) while Shaq dominates weaker ones (Sixers, Nets).. To all people saying Shaq carried Kobe are idiot..

When you can collectively average 29/13/4 on 60% against Olajuwon, Mutombo and Wallace in the Finals and two of those series didnt even occur during your peak years, it sort of has a way of legitimizing you. Can't help that Eric Snow and Tayshaun Prince were just too much.

2000-Gm1: 43 pts, 19 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 21-31 FG (67.7%)
2000-Gm2: 40 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 11-18 FG (61.1%)
2000-Gm3: 33 pts, 13 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 15-24 FG (62.5%)
2000-Gm4: 36 pts, 21 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 13-25 FG (52.0%)
2000-Gm5: 35 pts, 11 reb, 3 ast, 2 blk, 17-27 FG (62.9%)
2000-Gm6: 41 pts, 12 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 19-32 FG (59.3%)

2001-Gm1: 44 pts, 20 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 17-28 FG (60.7%)
2001-Gm2: 28 pts, 20 reb, 9 ast, 8 blk, 12-19 FG (63.1%)
2001-Gm3: 30 pts, 12 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk, 11-20 FG (55.0%)
2001-Gm4: 34 pts, 14 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 13-25 FG (52.0%)
2001-Gm5: 29 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 5 blk, 10-18 FG (55.5%)

2002-Gm1: 36 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 12-22 FG (54.5%)
2002-Gm2: 40 pts, 12 reb, 8 ast, 1 blk, 14-23 FG (60.8%)
2002-Gm3: 35 pts, 11 reb, 2 ast, 4 blk, 12-19 FG (63.1%)
2002-Gm4: 34 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk, 12-20 FG (60.0%)


God damn, son.

[KG215]

Watching game one of the '91 Finals on Youtube right now and, good night.....Bill Cartwright was terrible.

Anyway, someone noted Jordan's game two performance but, even in a loss, he was really good in game one, too. Only thing I've noticed is that he had a few really bad turnovers; like when he had Vlade guarding him after a switch on the perimeter, tried to hit Vlade with an in-and-out dribble, and Divac stripped Jordan. Thought that was hilarious.

It's interesting to see that the Lakers kept it so close throughout the first half and third quarter since Magic was really quiet until he hit back-to-back threes in the final minute of the third quarter. But Worthy, Perkins, and Divac killed it in the first half. Then you really see just how important Magic was to the team the first few minutes of the 4th quarter. Dunleavy (yes, Mike Dunleavy coached in an NBA Finals) started the fourth with Magic on the bench and the Lakers up 75-68. The Bulls started the third with a 10-0 run to take the lead. Jordan (who else?) sparked the run scoring like 6 or 8 of the points. I'd rewind to make sure, but I've got class in 30 minutes and I want to see the rest of the game before I have to leave.

[KG215]

Also, gotta love the Kobe stans coming in yet another thread to downplay Shaq. So predictable.

[caliman]

And you just proved my point. When Jordan was in the Finals, there was no doubt about him winning.


Revisionist history at its finest.

The Lakers may have been bigger favorites than the Bulls ever were. I can't recall anyone picking Indiana, Philly or Jersey to win the series, but quite a few picked the Lakers, Blazers and Suns.

[SilkkTheShocker]

Shaq had way less help. The 2001 Lakers are the least stacked when it comes to historically good dominant teams. Fisher was their 3rd best player in the playoffs.

[tpols]

Shaq had way less help. The 2001 Lakers are the least stacked when it comes to historically good dominant teams. Fisher was their 3rd best player in the playoffs.
:roll:

[jstern]

Why all the hate for Shaq from Laker fans?


Jordan - comparable/better production, more able to raise his game on command when needed (see: game 1 of the '92 Finals, game 4 of the '93 Finals, game 2 of the '91 Finals), provided all the 4th quarter and clutch heroics that Shaq needed Kobe for, was not a liability in any way (such as FT shooting), and faced far better teams. He also had expended way more energy defensively, having to guard Magic/Scott, Majerle/KJ, and Drexler/Porter, which was worlds better than the offensive scrubs Shaq guarded in the Finals. Jordan had better intangibles, too.

More than the numbers, though, you have to realize how Jordan completely imposed his will on every Finals series:

- In a must-win game 2 vs. LA in Chicago after an opening loss, he plays perhaps the best Finals game of all time with 33 pts/7 reb/13 ast on 15-18 FG, including 13 consecutive made FG's capped off by "the move."

- In game 1 of the '92 Finals, after media talk about how Clyde is on the same level as Jordan, he comes out and demolishes the Blazers for 35 first half points on like 14-19 FG, including an NBA record 6 threes in the half. He does this despite sitting out 7:00 of the half. Could have easily been a 42+ point half with how on fire he was. On the biggest stage. Against his main rival. All while neutralizing Drexler defensively. Cruises in the second half in a Bulls romp and finishes with 39 pts/11 ast.

- Averages 41/9/6+/51% FG vs. Phoenix and pours in 55 points in game 4 with Phoenix having a chance to tie the series. Scores all of Chicago's 14 fourth quarter points in the clinching game 6 before Paxson's jumper to seal it. On top of all this, he averaged nearly 46 mpg this series. Superhuman stamina.

That said, three-peat Shaq was beast, and it's definitely close. He's without a doubt the second greatest Finals performer of all time.

Pretty good. Reminded me of how Jordan just stepped thinks up at will, and that gave him the edge.

Shaq was absolutely unstoppable though. Miss those times.

[KG215]

Why all the hate for Shaq from Laker fans?


They're not real Lakers fans; they're Kobe stans.

[SilkkTheShocker]

:roll:


It was Shaq/Kobe and role players. They were more talent the year before but Kobe improving made up for anything they lost.

[KG215]

Wow, didn't realize Jordan missed a long 2-point pull-up jumper in the final 5 seconds that would've given the Bulls a 93-92 lead and potentially a game one win. The ball went halfway down become popping out, too.

Could you imagine if ISH existed at the time? There'd be all sorts of overreaction threads about how Jordan choked (despite going for 36-8-12-3 on 14/24 shooting) and how the Bulls and Jordan wouldn't ever win a championship.

[Rubio2Gasol]

Kobe was the closer.

Anyone who watched ball back then knows this.The 4th quarter was all him.

Thats the only knock on Shaq other than his laughable pick and roll defense

[jstern]

Kobe was the closer.

Anyone who watched ball back then knows this.The 4th quarter was all him.

Thats the only knock on Shaq other than his laughable pick and roll defense

Are you sure? Cause I seem to remember O'Neil making most of his free throws. And if he shoots it at 50% than it's amazing that the opponent would rather give up a point on ever possession which is like shooting 50% from the field and put their guys into foul trouble, than to actually risk Shaq scoring every time. That's how dominant he was.

I'm checking the game's play by play on basketball-reference and Shaq was either shooting one out of two or 2 for 2. Saw Kobe I think under a minute getting fouled twice, and going 1 for 2 both times. Not very clutch.

And right now I'm in Game 3 against NJ and with the Lakers up by 4 the closer missed two free throws with 42 seconds left to put the Nets away.

I see Shaq scoring the most points during the final minutes.

No play by play for the year 2000.

[Hands of Iron]

Kobe was the closer.

Anyone who watched ball back then knows this.The 4th quarter was all him.

Thats the only knock on Shaq other than his laughable pick and roll defense

Anyone who watched ball back then also knows this has become increasingly overblown over time as yet another way to attempt to diminish an all-time great. Not as if it could ever close to matching Shaq's impact on the game over the duration even if completely true. :lol

Also ironic Shaq is tied with himself for most Pts per 4th Qrt in a Finals over the last couple decades.

[swi7ch]

MJ would win because the GOAT never lost in the Finals in his decade.

Shaq can't even beat the lowly Pistons with Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Phil Jackson.

[Odinn]

MJ would win because the GOAT never lost in the Finals in his decade.

Shaq can't even beat the lowly Pistons with Kobe, Malone, Payton, and Phil Jackson.
Another proven idiot.:applause:

[Hands of Iron]

Another proven idiot.:applause:

Self exposure.. To The Max! :oldlol:

[KG215]

Sorry to keep bringing up the 1991 Finals, but Jordan's playmaking and passing was at an elite level at this point in his career. I knew he had pretty gaudy assist numbers (for a SG scoring and shooting as much as he was) but didn't realize he had this type of vision and passing ability. I've only seen game one and in the 2nd quarter of game two, but some of these passes he's making after penetration or from the perimeter to the post are just sick.

[OldSchoolBBall]

Sorry to keep bringing up the 1991 Finals, but Jordan's playmaking and passing was at an elite level at this point in his career. I knew he had pretty gaudy assist numbers (for a SG scoring and shooting as much as he was) but didn't realize he had this type of vision and passing ability. I've only seen game one and in the 2nd quarter of game two, but some of these passes he's making after penetration or from the perimeter to the post are just sick.

His passing in that series was unbelievable, and is one of the best examples of MJ's passing ability along with the '90 ECF vs. Detroit and the 1992 Olympics. There's maybe two other wing players in history who can make the passes he was making in that series (Lebron and Bird).

[KG215]

His passing in that series was unbelievable, and is one of the best examples of MJ's passing ability along with the '90 ECF vs. Detroit and the 1992 Olympics. There's maybe two other wing players in history who can make the passes he was making in that series (Lebron and Bird).

Yeah, it's not like he was racking up assists by hitting wide-open teammates on the block for a layup. Aside from dishing out to a wide-open Paxson (who was king everything from 15-18 feet out at the time) he was making some phenomenal passes. I strongly advise anyone who questions Jordan's passing/playmaking ability to get on Youtube and watch the 1991 Finals. He'll quieten you by the half of game one and completely shut you up by the end of the first quarter of game two.

And his game two performance has already been talked about (and that's what motivated me to see if the series was on Youtube) but describing how MJ played in that game doesn't do it justice. He spent the first half setting up teammates and had modest scoring numbers at halftime. He put on a scoring clinic in the third quarter and early fourth quarter to blow the game wide-open. After starting 1/3 from the floor, he hit 13 consecutive shots and finished 15/18 for the game. That very well may have been the defining game of his career. He was in his first Finals and had just dropped game one, at home, and there was a ton of pressure on him and the Bulls to take game two. Not only did he make sure they won the game, but he asserted himself in every phase of the game, and completely owned the court that night.

The Bulls won that game, went on to win the next three, and followed that up with two more championships. I mean what if Jordan doesn't go into God mode in that game when it was still a tight game at the half, and the Bulls lose; or what if they just barely win? Even a close win may have sent them back to LA tied 1-1 with not as much confidence, but Jordan not only won the game with his scoring, he built their confidence by getting his teammates involved early, and you could see them gaining confidence. I'll have to watch the remaining three games, but I think that game instilled a ton of confidence in Jordan's teammates, and got the ball rolling on a dynasty.

[Duncan21formvp]

Jordan's was better. He went against the #2 player in the league each time head to head.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Def Ratings

1991 Lakers 105.0
1992 Blazers 104.2
1993 Suns 106.7

2000 Pacers 103.6
2001 76ers 98.9
2002 Nets 99.5

:facepalm

[tpols]

Def Ratings

1991 Lakers 105.0
1992 Blazers 104.2
1993 Suns 106.7

2000 Pacers 103.6
2001 76ers 98.9
2002 Nets 99.5

:facepalm
Dude you're gonna compare mj seeing magic, Clyde, and Barkley to Shaq seeing Dale Davis, Jason Collins, and and mutumbo? Notice how the second group had both names pronounced? That's cuz no one knows who they are.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Dude you're gonna compare mj seeing magic, Clyde, and Barkley to Shaq seeing Dale Davis, Jason Collins, and and mutumbo? Notice how the second group had both names pronounced? That's cuz no one knows who they are.

Magic, Clyde and Barkley

3 HOF careers........................... 0 all defensive team selections COMBINED

[KG215]

Magic, Clyde and Barkley

3 HOF careers........................... 0 all defensive team selections COMBINED

And yet, all three were still in their prime (even Magic although he was at the tail end of his career), and all three were better than anyone the Lakers (Shaq and Kobe) played in the 2000-2002 Finals. You trying to downplay Jordan's competition by using a stat like DRtg and something like how Magic, Clyde, and Barkley had 0 All-Defense selections between them is just ignorant. Of course your whole gimmick is DRtg and, for whatever reason, you seem to live and die by that particular stat with your arguments.

[Hands of Iron]

Dude you're gonna compare mj seeing magic, Clyde, and Barkley to Shaq seeing Dale Davis, Jason Collins, and and mutumbo? Notice how the second group had both names pronounced? That's cuz no one knows who they are.

What do Magic, Clyde and Barkley have to do with the defensive ratings he posted (not that I put any stock into them) and when did those three ever play any? The Suns were up-tempo even back then and lacked any type of interior defensive presence even back then :lol

Maybe should've just been an overall comparison? Shaq faced three all-time great defenders in the Finals. One of those times, he was in his 3rd season in the league and another he was past his peak with Kobe playing hero ball shooting the Lakers out of the Finals. Olajuwon, a 2x DPOY who had won the Award the previous two seasons before their meeting in 1995. Mutombo, a 4x DPOY who had won the Award the season he faced Shaq in the Finals. Wallace, a 4x DPOY who had had won the Award the previous two seasons before their meeting in 2004 and would win it again the two following years in 2005-2006.

Collectively against them, Shaq put up 29/13/4 on 60% from the field.

How many ATG defensive players did Jordan see in the Finals, what do their resumes look like, where were they at during that particular time and how did he perform against them?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

And yet, all three were still in their prime (even Magic although he was at the tail end of his career), and all three were better than anyone the Lakers (Shaq and Kobe) played in the 2000-2002 Finals. You trying to downplay Jordan's competition by using a stat like DRtg and something like how Magic, Clyde, and Barkley had 0 All-Defense selections between them is just ignorant. Of course your whole gimmick is DRtg and, for whatever reason, you seem to live and die by that particular stat with your arguments.

The OP posted offensive stats of Shaq vs Jordan. I posted the most highly accepted defensive stats of the teams they faced. Jordan faced defensive cream puffs. Shaq faced defensive juggernauts. Those are simply facts. What relevance does Magic's brilliance on the fast break have with Jordan's offensive stats in the Finals?

[KG215]

The OP posted offensive stats of Shaq vs Jordan. I posted the most highly accepted defensive stats of the teams they faced. Jordan faced defensive cream puffs. Shaq faced defensive juggernauts. Those are simply facts. What relevance does Magic's brilliance on the fast break have with Jordan's offensive stats in the Finals?

I've seen some major holes poked in DRtg on ISH alone. I don't know enough about the stat myself, but I'm pretty sure according to DRtg there's some awful teams that would be considered better defensive teams than some of Jordan's Bulls squads.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I've seen some major holes poked in DRtg on ISH alone. I don't know enough about the stat myself, but I'm pretty sure according to DRtg there's some awful teams that would be considered better defensive teams than some of Jordan's Bulls squads.

Which defensive stat would you prefer to use?

Def Rating is simply a points allowed per possession defended measure. Its as controversial as field goal percentage.

[RRR3]

Which defensive stat would you prefer to use?
It's hard to measure defense in a consistent way, particularly for different eras. Of course, we all know you are just trying to make Jordan look worse because you want to convince people Kobe is the GOAT because you're infatuated with Kobe and brush your teeth with his pubic hair.:facepalm

[jstern]

I've seen some major holes poked in DRtg on ISH alone. I don't know enough about the stat myself, but I'm pretty sure according to DRtg there's some awful teams that would be considered better defensive teams than some of Jordan's Bulls squads.

I don't know much about that stats, but from what I've heard from people who do is that they can't be compared from season to season.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It's hard to measure defense in a consistent way, particularly for different eras. Of course, we all know you are just trying to make Jordan look worse because you want to convince people Kobe is the GOAT because you're infatuated with Kobe and brush your teeth with his pubic hair.:facepalm

This thread isn't about Kobe. Please try to stay on topic. Are we supposed to completely ignore the defenses both of these legends played? Is there any statistical defensive ranking system in the world that ranked Jordan's competition anywhere near the competition Shaq faced? :confusedshrug:

[KG215]

:oldlol:

As if people aren't taking very obvious swipes at Shaq.

And in most instances it's Kobe stans taking swipes at both. This type of thraed puts the Kobe stans in an odd situation. Some love to try and downplay Shaq to make Kobe look better, and some pine so much for Kobe to be considered as good as Jordan, that they do whatever they can to make Jordan look bad.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't know much about that stats, but from what I've heard from people who do is that they can't be compared from season to season.

Then how can we compare offensive stats from season to season. :confusedshrug:

[Hands of Iron]

And in most instances, it's Kobe stans taking swipes at both. This type of thraed puts the Kobe stans in an odd situation. Some love to try and downplay Shaq to make Kobe look better, and some pine so much for Kobe to be considered as good as Jordan, that they do whatever they can to make Jordan look bad.

Well, I like both honestly, but these remarks about Shaq's opposition is pretty much horseshit at it's finest. Are we really going to act like O'Neal wasn't phenomenal against Olajuwon and Wallace? Neither of those occurred during his peak (1998-2002). Do you honestly think he would've performed worse then he did against them plugging those guys in for 2000 and 2002? I seriously doubt it. His dominance needs to be taken and respected for what it is: Completely and Utterly Thorough. I've asked some very legitimate questions on the previous page.

[KG215]

Well, I like both honestly, but these remarks about Shaq's opposition is pretty much horseshit at it's finest. Are we really going to act like O'Neal wasn't phenomenal against Olajuwon and Wallace? Neither of those occurred during his peak (1998-2002). Do you honestly think he would've performed worse then he did against them plugging those guys in for 2000 and 2002? I seriously doubt it. His dominance needs to be taken and respected for what it is: Completely and Utterly Thorough. I've asked some very legitimate questions on the previous page.

Hey man, I'm on your side. 2000-2002 Shaq probably puts up close to those numbers against any center at any point in NBA history. He was that good and that dominant. I'm just pointing out that the majority of the people bashing Shaq are Kobe stans who try to downplay Shaq any chance they get.

[Kobe 4 The Win]

My vote is for Wilt Chamberneezy, the Big Diesel

Can't go wrong with either of these guys though

[Hands of Iron]

Hey man, I'm on your side. 2000-2002 Shaq probably puts up close to those numbers against any center at any point in NBA history. He was that good and that dominant. I'm just pointing out that the majority of the people bashing Shaq are Kobe stans who try to downplay Shaq any chance they get.

Well, that's honestly a relief.

Would Shaq hang 38/17/3 on 61% against '95 Olajuwon? Probably not. But considering he did 28/13/6 on 60% in 1995, that would put the in between where? Because he is NOT doing worse in 2000. It's extremely suspicious people will gladly post Ewing and Robinson's stats, but with Shaq... Well, that doesnt matter. Its just like yeah, okay. Check out their collective head-to-heads from 1993-95, Shaq's first three seasons. Olajuwons absolute peak. Wow.

[KG215]

Well, that's honestly a relief.

Would Shaq hang 38/17/3 on 61% against '95 Olajuwon? Probably not. But considering he did 28/13/6 on 60% in 1995, that would put the in between where? Because he is NOT doing worse in 2000. It's extremely suspicious people will gladly post Ewing and Robinson's stats, but with Shaq... Well, that doesnt matter. Its just like yeah, okay. Check out their collective head-to-heads from 1993-95, Shaq's first three seasons. Olajuwons absolute peak. Wow.

I've made arguments in other threads that the "Hakeem owned Shaq" myth has grown to out of control proportions. Yes, Hakeem was the best player in that series and his team swept Shaq's, but a still offensively raw Shaq put up very good numbers. Not to mention he was, what, 22 or 23 years old? By 2000 he was just a more complete two way player with a more refined post game.

[Poetry]

But watching this video made me feel sorry for Dikembe Motombo. Shaq was dunking on him like he wasn't there

I remember feeling bad for Mutombo too. It was just impossible to do anything against Shaq when he had position.

[Coffee Black]

Would anyone argue that out of the teams that lost in the finals in those years, the 91 Lakers, 92 Blazers, and 93 Suns were the better of the 6?

[KG215]

Watching game three now and....

In hindsight and even with revisionists history all we tend to remember is that Jordan 3-peated two times, got his six rings and six Finals MVPs, and that's pretty much it but, again...could you imagine if ISH existed in 1991? Bulls lose game one at home and people would start blasting Jordan for not being able to win "the big one" and might start straddling him with the unfair choker label. They bounce back, Jordan plays a damn near perfect game, and blow the Lakers out and win game two.

Cliff Levingston, of all people, gave the Bulls some excellent high energy minutes in the fourth off the bench. Had three buckets (two offensive rebound putbacks), some rebounds, and a couple of blocked shots. Jordan was still struggling to make shots even with about 4:00 to go in the fourth; he was 2/9 from the floor in the second half up until that point. After watching the game, if it wasn't for Cliff Levingston, the Bulls wouldn't have even got game three to OT. They lose in regulation and go down 2-1 in the series. Could you imagine this place if someone like Joel Anthony had come off the bench in the fourth quarter, had a couple of blocks, and three or four buckets in the fourth to turn an 8-point deficit into a 3-point lead? There'd be like 5 threads about how Cliff Levingston was carrying Jordan. Then Vlade comes down and fouls Pippen out and completes a 3-point play to put the Lakers ahead 92-90 with 10 seconds to play.

And Jordan had just a miserable fourth quarter. I mean he couldn't make a shot to save his life. Then what does he do? Takes the inbound pass, dribbles the length of the floor, gets by Byron Scott, stops from about 12 feet out, and hits a jumper over a closing Vlade Divac to tie the game and send it to OT. Having a terrible second half, can't make a shot, on the verge of falling behind 2-1 in his first NBA Finals, and he hits a dagger over a 7-footer to get the game into OT where the Bulls go on to win. But I mean he was this close to being down in the series 2-1 and would've been the scapegoat after a miserable 9/25 shooting performance. (That's what he was in regulation).

Knowing how ISH reacts and jumps all over LeBron and Kobe after a bad game or awful second half of a big playoff or Finals game, it's interesting to imagine the shit-storm it'd become around here if ISH existed in 1991. Even though the Bulls won, there'd still be half a page of threads about Jordan having to be carried by his teammates.

Thing is, despite the bad shooting night, he still finished with a 29-9-9-4-2 line, hit the game tying shot in the end of regulation, hit two crucial buckets (I guess every bucket in OT is crucial) and scored six points, while willing a Pippen-less supporting cast to a game two win on the road in OT.