Mike Tyson vs Muhammad Ali

[TheGreatBlaze]

Both primes, who ya got?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtNneV6RKrw

[9erempiree]

Probably Tyson.

[LamarOdom]

Joe Louis.

[Stuckey]

ill take tyson

[brownmamba00]

tyson is the most overrated boxer of all time

ali easily

[Riddler]

Prime Tyson would destroy anybody.

[Overdrive]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRPn7R_6r4o

[ForeverHeat]

Tyson was a dangerous individual and he slightly edges it if you just take fighting into account. But Ali had some crazy heart and won numerous times when he had no right to do so. Because of that I would never count him out, especially against someone like Tyson who if he isn't dominating really can't beat you any other way.

[DonDadda59]

Prime Tyson would destroy anybody.

Except Buster Douglas :oldlol:

Ali would beat him before they even got to the ring. Ali was a master at mind games and Tyson was a mental midget. Ali too tall, too skilled, too smart, too tough for Tyson. Mike never did well when he stepped up in class and wasn't harrassing tomato cans. Look what the massive underdog and way past it Holyfield did to him. It'd look a lot like Lewis-Tyson, at any point of Tyson's career.

[kentatm]

Ali all the way.

what is wrong with some of you fools?

[Mach_3]

Except Buster Douglas :oldlol:

Ali would beat him before they even got to the ring. Ali was a master at mind games and Tyson was a mental midget. Ali too tall, too skilled, too smart, too tough for Tyson. Mike never did well when he stepped up in class and wasn't harrassing tomato cans. Look what the massive underdog and way past it Holyfield did to him. It'd look a lot like Lewis-Tyson, at any point of Tyson's career.

Didn't he get injured like partway through the fight. I believe it was his knee or something like that? I havent watched that fight in a while so my memory might be off.

Mike was never the same after that fight :(

[IcanzIIravor]

Ali would win. If he could take Foreman's punches I think he would be able to survive the early rounds with Tyson, frustrate Tyson and win a unanimous decision.

[LBJMVP]

Except Buster Douglas :oldlol:

Ali would beat him before they even got to the ring. Ali was a master at mind games and Tyson was a mental midget. Ali too tall, too skilled, too smart, too tough for Tyson. Mike never did well when he stepped up in class and wasn't harrassing tomato cans. Look what the massive underdog and way past it Holyfield did to him. It'd look a lot like Lewis-Tyson, at any point of Tyson's career.


to be fair tyson had come out of retired earlier and then fought holyfield was headbutting him.


also, apparentely buster douglas has a flawless fight and pull alot into it cause he mom had died 20 days before.

[IcanzIIravor]

to be fair tyson had come out of retired earlier and then fought holyfield was headbutting him.


also, apparentely buster douglas has a flawless fight and pull alot into it cause he mom had died 20 days before.

Mike was going through the whole Robbin Givens drama too. Focused Mike ends Buster early. He still loses to Ali in a hypothetical match up though.

[po3try]

Ali!

[bdreason]

I'm sorry but Tyson would get destroyed.

[Crown&Coke]

thats like comparing the eiffel tower in Las Vegas to the eiffel tower in Paris, France

there really is no comparison

Tyson was vicious, but Ali is called The Greatest for a reason

[JellyBean]

I love Ali. I remember having the Ali/Ken Norton boxing "action" figures back in the day. But I got Tyson in this one. In their prime! A talking Ali would only cause Tyson to just end it quicker.

[dude77]

in his prime(pre douglas when he was completely focused in the ring) and as long as this man is still training him :

http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc494/steelermia/kevin_rooney1.jpg

tyson takes out the 'greatest'

y'all are thinking of the post douglas tyson

[Crown&Coke]

y'all are thinking of the post douglas tyson

You might be thinking of a post-vietnam Ali as well, you know, when the robbed the champion of his prime

Ali had it all. The only question mark was his chin early in his career because nobody could catch him flush, and I think he proved he had one in those Frazier bouts.

Can't hit what you can't catch, and he had pin point accuracy along with his reach, power and speed.

Tyson was a knockout artist, he doesn't get enough credit for his ring smarts. But Ali was a boxer. He was a scientist in that ring

[Michael_Wilbon]

This is a real debate? Ali.

[Godzuki]

Tyson

ali might be able to jab with reach all day, but Tyson in his prime to me had the best power punches i've ever seen and i think he could get inside to land them. i think the latter Tyson when he had all of those personal issues and switched from rooney? i think distorted a lot of his greatness in most peoples perception of him. especially the holyfield fights and ear biting.

[TheGreatBlaze]

Ali himself said Tyson would beat him. You can see the respect he has for Mike here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ki4UKsI8bms

[po3try]

Ali >> Tyson!

[dude77]

this is what would have happened to ali had he fought a primed and focused tyson trained by kevin rooney .. except it would've come much earlier in the fight and he would've knocked him out :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctKAGKVpCUU&feature=player_detailpage#t=3511s

[Raz]

Ali would clown him.

[GOBB]

this is what would have happened to ali had he fought a primed and focused tyson trained by kevin rooney .. except it would've come much earlier in the fight and he would've knocked him out :


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctKAGKVpCUU&feature=player_detailpage#t=3511s

Huh? You realized that fight went 15 rounds? You realized Joe Frazier stamina shyts all over Tyson? Tyson wasnt a fighter who could go deep into rounds. Joe Frazier was. You see how fatigedAli was? To think Ali would be that fatigued early for Tyson to tee off on him like this is stupid on your part.

Ridiculous video posting to justify why you think Tyson beats Ali. Get out of here. Ali stuck and moved in his prime, he never stood still in 1 place.Ali utilized his jab which was having nice long reach. That neutralizes Tyson who looks to get close to attack. Ali could keep Mike off balance simply by sticking and moving then unleashes combos Tyson wouldnt suspect due to pure frustratio because he cant get inside of Ali to punish him.

The fight would be similar when Lennox whupped Tyson. Just in terms of the contract in styles. So dont go countering that wasnt Tysons prime. I'm speaking solely of the difference in styles. Prime Tyson was mean, viscious but he didnt demonstate the ability to go deep in fights and take an opponent out. Joe Frazier was short, and a 1 handed boxer but what made him great was he was relentless. His motor kept going. Joe Frazier could have gone another 5 rds in that 1st Ali fight. Tyson would never last 15rds then unleash like that.

And to think Tyson would have easily done this early is seriously underestimating Ali ring IQ. He was a skilled boxer but smart as hell. Notice how you tried to carefully craft Tysons corner by saying give him Rooney then attatched "focused" to the line? You dont need to say crap like that about a prime Ali. Yet with a prime Tyson you want to carefully walk on egg shells to give him certain "things" in order for him to be successful. Get out of here bruh.

It would be an amazing fight just off the trash talk leading up to them touching gloves. Tyson wouldnt roll over but Ali wins this matchup. Ali ATE Joe Frazer left hook (one of boxings best) and fought on. Tells me Ali chin is made of glass. Frazier was such a durable fighter, silly to use this clip in rd 15.

[Godzuki]

which youtube highlight vid have you seen??


and no, not true, the general perception is that he was an unstoppable beast but the truth is that he had some nice wins but not enough quality opposition to be considered beeing one of the greatest


i've seen almost all of his fights on ppv. Tyson was dominating in the 80's, in fact so dominating there was a period where other fighters didn't want to even challenge him. say what you want about lack of competition but i've neveer seen anybody wreck everyone that they fought in their prime like Tyson. it got to the point everyone watching expected either a KO or someone to die in the first 30 secs of every one of his fights for a while. not talking after he got in trouble for rape, holyfield fights, etc. since thats when he went downhill big time after he left Rooney. but in his prime i've never seen a more dominant fighter, and his upper cut was ridiculous.

then again i'm not the biggest fans of pure boxers(don't like mayweather's style either) and while i love Sugar Ray(from MD), i give a lot more credit to a toe to toe fighter that isn't all about ducking and moving all fight so much. call it personal preference i guess.

[DaHeezy]

I don't know if it's a lack of good competition or the fact that Tyson was SO dominant it ruined the reputation of boxers in his era. He beat Larry Holmes who was an all-time great. Micheal Spinks had a solid career and his only loss was to Tyson.

It kind of reminds me of how Jordan dominated his era to the point where it ruined the careers of Malone and Stockton, Barkley, and Ewing. All of which could never be considered a top 15 player of all-time.

All I know is I grew up in that era so to me Tyson was the closest thing to an unstoppable force I've ever seen. I couldn't pick a winner but for those who think its a joke that Tyson could beat Ali I'd really have to question.

[kNicKz]

People that claim Trevor Berbick, Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno, Larry Holmes, and Tony Tucker were not tough opponents are clueless. Put Frank Bruno in 2012 and he dominates the entire HW division.

Point aside, if Ali makes it past round 4 then he wins

[lefthook00]

Ya'll are crazy!!! Make no mistake, Ali could lay the SMACKDOWN on fools. I don't know where you guys are getting the idea that Ali was some feather-fisted point fighter. He had power, a GRANITE chin, blazing speed, height, reach, technique, HEART, and stamina for DAYS. He could bounce around for a whole fight, modern welterweights can't even do that.

Ali stopped Sonny Liston. SONNY LISTON. Think Tyson, but taller, bigger, and physically stronger.

Ali took bombs and stopped George Forman. GEORGE FOREMAN!!! Think Tyson, but taller, bigger, physically stronger, and a HARDER PUNCHER than Tyson EVER was. Arguably the hardest puncher of all time.

Ali stopped Joe Frazier. JOE FRAZIER. One of the toughest SOB's in the history of mankind.

Tyson isn't beating Ali.

Let's put it this way, Ali has been hit harder than Tyson could ever hit him, has withstood more pressure than Tyson could ever put on him, has had his heart, stamina, and toughness tested harder than Tyson ever would be able to, faced multiple fighters that were simply better than Tyson, and didn't only survive, he WON.

Tyson literally has no way to win. Ali makes Tyson give up and stops him eventually.

[Cali Syndicate]

I love Mike but he's terribly overrated. No way he would have a chance against Ali. Ali would jab the shit out of him.
He has pretty much no meaningful win in his record and got beat in his prime by some cab driver.
His fans are as stupid as it gets. 'if he would have trained', 'if he would be focused', if he would have done this and that... :blah

common man, I would be a hw champ if I would have trained and would be focused and so on

This. Ali would definitely keep his distance. If they went toe to toe, I see Tyson blowing Ali but Ali was a smart fighter and wouldn't fight him like that.

[lefthook00]

This. Ali would definitely keep his distance. If they went toe to toe, I see Tyson blowing Ali but Ali was a smart fighter and wouldn't fight him like that.

Tyson wouldn't even win a toe to toe match with Ali. If Foreman couldn't take Ali out like that, Tyson has a 0% chance.

[Cali Syndicate]

Tyson wouldn't even win a toe to toe match with Ali. If Foreman couldn't take Ali out like that, Tyson has a 0% chance.

Ali didn't go toe to toe, he wore Foreman down. Ali would do the same with Tyson.

[lefthook00]

Ali didn't go toe to toe, he wore Foreman down. Ali would do the same with Tyson.

He rope-a-doped him, but a lot of that was trading punch for punch. What I meant was that Ali ate all of Foreman's shots, many of them flush, and he didn't get stopped, and Tyson hits no where near as hard as Foreman.

[Cali Syndicate]

He rope-a-doped him, but a lot of that was trading punch for punch. What I meant was that Ali ate all of Foreman's shots, many of them flush, and he didn't get stopped, and Tyson hits no where near as hard as Foreman.

IDK, Foreman was a beast of a man and overall Foreman probably had more power but Tyson's left hook was pretty nasty.

[tpols]

IDK, Foreman was a beast of a man and overall Foreman probably had more power but Tyson's left hook was pretty nasty.
Yea I feel like Foreman hit harder than Tyson but he didnt have near the quickness or explosive ability.. and thats what knocks people out. Foreman was a giant that just heaved bombs right through people's guards but Tyson was a weaver who would duck in and throw shots that were less predictable imo. His left hook would come out of nowhere and if Ali took one unexpected hit to the jaw from 80s mike he would drop.

[GOBB]

Whether Foreman power was better than Tyson is irrelevant. Ali would not stand toe to toe with Mike Tyson and trade power shots. Ali beat fighters with his skills, not brawling in the middle of the ring to see who would be the first to kiss canvas. This aint Mickey Ward vs Gatti.

If you turn this fight into who wins toe to toe testing power and chins? This gives Tyson a chance to win. Yes Ali has eaten power shots from greats. But he aint eating them often, no man is. Toe to toe countering one another plays into Tysons hands more than Ali. Tyson hit hard. Tyson was quick and explosive. And a prime Tyson was accurate with his shots. He wouldnt just hit Ali with hooks, he'd follow it up with sharp uppercuts as well.

[tpols]

Whether Foreman power was better than Tyson is irrelevant. Ali would not stand toe to toe with Mike Tyson and trade power shots. Ali beat fighters with his skills, not brawling in the middle of the ring to see who would be the first to kiss canvas. This aint Mickey Ward vs Gatti.

If you turn this fight into who wins toe to toe testing power and chins? This gives Tyson a chance to win. Yes Ali has eaten power shots from greats. But he aint eating them often, no man is. Toe to toe countering one another plays into Tysons hands more than Ali. Tyson hit hard. Tyson was quick and explosive. And a prime Tyson was accurate with his shots. He wouldnt just hit Ali with hooks, he'd follow it up with sharp uppercuts as well.
Ali would treat Mike the same way he treated Joe Frazier.. call him stupid and belittle his intelligence and patience and try to toy with him, etc. But we all saw Frazier stand toe to toe with Ali and even beat him. Frazier and Mike arent all that different. Both shorter quicker power hitters with crazy hooks.. except Tyson was scarier and hit even more ferociously. He probably couldnt last as long as Joe but I think prime Mike could overwhelm Ali.. hed have to have his best corner from the 80s with him to give him patience but its possible. People acting like Ali would just breeze through it are kidding themselves.

[JEFFERSON MONEY]

Goddamnit can we talk about Jack Johnson or Sugar Ray Robinson or Lennox instead.

Yes they are the most memorable/charismatic motherf*kkers in all of boxing.

But by golly there's been at least ten threads on this

[SCREWstonRockets]

Ali man, easy question.

[Carbine]

For those of you saying Mike was in his prime when he lost to Douglas, that's really not anywhere near the truth. He very clearly was not.

[DonDadda59]

For those of you saying Mike was in his prime when he lost to Douglas, that's really not anywhere near the truth. He very clearly was not.

I swear Tyson's 'prime' gets shorter and shorter every time he's discussed here. Pretty soon it'll be revealed that his prime was one glorious summer in 1985 when Cus was still alive, Rooney was still in his corner, he hadn't raped anyone recently, the stars were aligned in his birth sign, etc. :lol

[Stephen_H]

Ali hands down. Too long, too quick, too much heart and most of all too smart. Tyson never beat anyone good in his whole career. Beating Frank Bruno and an old, scared Michael Spinks does not impress me. Holyfield and Lennox showed what Tyson lacked in composure and smarts. I'd bet everything i owned on Ali.

[Godzuki]

its clear Tyson had no discipline after he left Rooney. his RL went to shit too. it seemed to me like he tried way harder to act/look tougher without the behind the scenes work at that point. there is no way the latter Tyson against the big names was anything close to the early Tyson, and most people remember him for the latter years, like i said the ear biting, face tattooed crap.

[TheGreatBlaze]

its clear Tyson had no discipline after he left Rooney. his RL went to shit too. it seemed to me like he tried way harder to act/look tougher without the behind the scenes work at that point. there is no way the latter Tyson against the big names was anything close to the early Tyson, and most people remember him for the latter years, like i said the ear biting, face tattooed crap.
A lot of things contributed to the fall of Mike Tyson. Leaving Rooney, Jim Jacobs dying, Robin Givens fiasco, Don King (self explanatory). He lost what made him great and basically became a head hunter looking to throw one punch at a time. He lost his Cus D'amato peek-a-boo style that made him a great technical boxer, he lost his defense too which was a huge part of his game. You couldn't hit a young Mike Tyson. He also lost his passion.

Before the Douglas fight Tyson hadn't fought in a year and needed to shed 30 pounds. And apparently he barely even trained and stayed up until 5 am partying the night before the fight. Yeah these things are his fault, but a focused and ready Iron Mike would have put Douglas to sleep early. And when he fought Holyfield the first time he looked like a shell of his former self. He looked slow and fat lol.

[johndeeregreen]

Someone needs to find the numerous threads/posts thoroughly debunking Tyson's so-called "all time greatness" and just call it a day after that. One of the most overrated athletes of all time.

[GOBB]

its clear Tyson had no discipline after he left Rooney. his RL went to shit too.

Wrong. People keep saying stuff like this. Rooney was not the only instrumental figure in Tyson life. Tyson had Cus and a team of people who took care of him. Jimmy Jacobs, Bill Clayton. Once Cus died, then Jimmy things went downhill because Don King snatched him up. And Mike got involved with ROBBING Givens another person that factored into his downward spiral. Rooney was a good trainer, but his influence outside of the ring was minimal.

[Lebron23]

Mike Tyson's best win was againts a past his prime Larry Holmes. Holmes had some solid wins after Tyson beat him.

[magic chiongson]

ali with prep, tyson without.


yeah i've had too much of comic book matches

[Heilige]

[QUOTE]Details: You learned discipline

[TheGreatBlaze]

http://grind365.com/sports/mike-tysons-details-interview/
Wow, great interview thanks. Mike's gotta be like the realest guy ever. God bless him.

[lefthook00]

Mike even states in that interview above that Ali was the meanest fighter of all time.


He also says there is "no f*cking way that he could beat Ali in a fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF17mkqyf44
Starts talking about Ali @ the 3:05 mark, Mike is on the brink of tearing up at one point.


And this is the best Ali video on Youtube imo, actually one of my favorite Youtube videos period:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnzofi_QltI

[gigantes]

just randomly found that amazing tyson interview and the links. too bad rep is down-- you guys deserve it.


so, prime ali was 6'3"... cosell standing in for 5'11" iron mike.
http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20130924/1000/daily_gifdump_461_18.gif

[DCL]

Except Buster Douglas :oldlol:

Ali would beat him before they even got to the ring. Ali was a master at mind games and Tyson was a mental midget. Ali too tall, too skilled, too smart, too tough for Tyson. Mike never did well when he stepped up in class and wasn't harrassing tomato cans. Look what the massive underdog and way past it Holyfield did to him. It'd look a lot like Lewis-Tyson, at any point of Tyson's career.


mentally, he was already off his prime for the buster douglas fight. his mind was elsewhere.

[kNicKz]

Ali is better but Tyson is being seriously disrespected in some of these posts. Tyson made his opponents look like scrubs, which is why a lot of people think he fought scrubs. Razor Ruddock is a scrub? Berbick is a scrub? Spinks was old? He was 31 :coleman: I'm talking about 1986 Tyson. Not 2002 when he trained for 2 days to fight Lewis for cocaine money :roll:

[oh the horror]

Ali had a lot mentally on his plate as well during some
Of his fights. And you know what? He didn't get knocked out.

[GOBB]

Mike even states in that interview above that Ali was the meanest fighter of all time.


He also says there is "no f*cking way that he could beat Ali in a fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MF17mkqyf44
Starts talking about Ali @ the 3:05 mark, Mike is on the brink of tearing up at one point.

Doesnt matter what Mike Tyson says. In his prime he wouldn't think this way. Tyson today just showing Ali respect. You cant take anything from what Mike says.

[kNicKz]

Tyson broke down his opponents and dominated them like no fighter I have ever seen. I don't think we'll ever see another Mike Tyson ...that level of domination was crazy. He showed up, murdered his opponent, and left. It's a toss up who would win prime vs. prime. Ali had the flash , skills, and heart. But Tysons combination of hunger, speed, and raw power when he was in his late teens was unstoppable

[GOBB]

Tyson broke down his opponents and dominated them like no fighter I have ever seen. I don't think we'll ever see another Mike Tyson ...that level of domination was crazy. He showed up, murdered his opponent, and left. It's a toss up who would win prime vs. prime. Ali had the flash , skills, and heart. But Tysons combination of hunger, speed, and raw power when he was in his late teens was unstoppable

Ali could go 15 rounds. Could Tyson?

[DuMa]

Ali because Ali never beat himself.

[L.Kizzle]

Prime Lennox Lewis would beat both.

[MadeFromDust]

Smokin Joe Frazier > Tyson

And Clay handled Frazier just fine

[raiderfan19]

Tyson reminds of a hw version of Andre berto. Tyson was clearly better than berto but not by nearly as much as the average Tyson fan would have you believe. He was a guy with good physical skills who couldn't make the jump from dominating cans to handling real competition.

[L.Kizzle]

Tyson reminds of a hw version of Andre berto. Tyson was clearly better than berto but not by nearly as much as the average Tyson fan would have you believe. He was a guy with good physical skills who couldn't make the jump from dominating cans to handling real competition.
:biggums:

[plowking]

Prime Lennox Lewis would beat both.

Yep.

There isn't a heavyweight I'd take over Lennox to win a single fight apart from maybe Foreman.

[RedBlackAttack]

Mike Tyson - The most overrated athlete in the history of sports.

Never has a guy been given the amount of leeway and the number of excuses as Tyson has over the years. People just prefer to believe the myth over the reality because it's more fun.

The reality? He was maybe the third best heavyweight of his generation. Maybe.

[plowking]

Mike Tyson - The most overrated athlete in the history of sports.

Never has a guy been given the amount of leeway and the number of excuses as Tyson has over the years. People just prefer to believe the myth over the reality because it's more fun.

The reality? He was maybe the third best heavyweight of his generation. Maybe.

Boxing has always been a longevity biased sport, and I'm fine with that, but to deny Mike being a very special fighter at his best is meh.
The way you've come to talk about Tyson in these discussions is bordering on the point of criminally underrating him. Not this particular post, but just in general.

He was a very special fighter at his best, and yes, it may have been short livem but its true.

[bdreason]

Lewis doesn't have the footwork or the speed to stay with Ali. He would do a lot better than Tyson though. :oldlol:

[plowking]

Lewis doesn't have the footwork or the speed to stay with Ali. He would do a lot better than Tyson though. :oldlol:

Hes going to be planted in the middle of the ring, and keeping Ali at bay with his iron fist jab all night.

[iamgine]

Yep.

There isn't a heavyweight I'd take over Lennox to win a single fight apart from maybe Foreman.
Riddick Bowe

[bdreason]

Boxing has always been a longevity biased sport, and I'm fine with that, but to deny Mike being a very special fighter at his best is meh.
The way you've come to talk about Tyson in these discussions is bordering on the point of criminally underrating him. Not this particular post, but just in general.

He was a very special fighter at his best, and yes, it may have been short livem but its true.


I was raised on Tyson, but he was never a complete fighter. He was a devastating puncher who could dispose of anyone who would stand in front of him... but his technical abilities and boxing IQ was average at best. If his career had taken a different path, maybe he could have become a complete fighter.

[9erempiree]

Ali would most likely destroy any heavyweight in history. The only guy that would give him fits or would beat him would be Mike Tyson. Tyson was a very good fighter and it's too bad people will remember him during the Don King era. When he as young he had the ability to chop up his opponent. Break them down with body shots and then go for the head.

On the other hand, Ali vs any heavyweight in history would lose. I showed a buddy of mine some old Ali/Frazier fights and I remember he was so shocked when they announced it was a 15 round fight. Nobody does that crap anymore. It shows you how great Ali was. He was willing to go all the fuccking way.

Pristine footwork and hand speed, mentality and trash talking will give Ali the upper hand versus any fighter. Go watch Ali/Foreman and watch Ali lean on the ropes the entire fight. He would go on a flurry to win the rounds in the last minute of a round. Eventually, he knocked Foreman out. Causing Foreman to retire and fall into a deep depression.

[9erempiree]

Also, Ali was fighting at a time when racial tension was huge. Doesn't get any easier when he ducked the war too. He was admired and hated. I'm surprised nobody attempted to assassinate him. He was very controversial during that time. Knowing all of this, he still went out and beat everyone up and did it his way

[9erempiree]

I was raised on Tyson, but he was never a complete fighter. He was a devastating puncher who could dispose of anyone who would stand in front of him... but his technical abilities and boxing IQ was average at best. If his career had taken a different path, maybe he could have become a complete fighter.

Go watch Tyson vs Ribalta. He went past the the 4th round for the very first time in his career I believe. Ribalata was a very good fighter and too bad how the fight ended but you can clearly see Tyson's skill as a technical fighter.

[RedBlackAttack]

Boxing has always been a longevity biased sport, and I'm fine with that, but to deny Mike being a very special fighter at his best is meh.
The way you've come to talk about Tyson in these discussions is bordering on the point of criminally underrating him. Not this particular post, but just in general.

He was a very special fighter at his best, and yes, it may have been short livem but its true.
It's not just about longevity. It's about the myriad of excuses we have to read about every time Tyson's name pops up in a discussion, which usually centers around how he'd theoretically do against a true all-time great when the reality is he had several chances against other greats of his own era in real life and he was summarily blown out of the water each time.

If any other fan of any other athlete in any sport posted the avalanche of excuses which routinely are accepted when it comes to Tyson, they'd be laughed off the board and out of the room.

And, calling Tyson maybe the third best fighter of his generation isn't underrating him, let alone "criminally" underrating him. I was/am a big fan of Tyson. I love watching his old fights. I grew up with him knocking guys out left and right. He was the guy my generation revered and feared as we were growing up. It was a lot of fun.

But, I have too much respect for the sport to turn a blind eye to the facts (like most people do when it comes to Tyson) in favor of continuing the myths about a guy who was a devastating puncher and a promising young champion, but ultimately does not have enough substance to warrant being brought up in any "all-time" conversations.

His greatest wins were against an overblown light heavyweight and a middle aged former champion who hadn't fought in several years. He had three fights against the other best heavyweights of his generation. He was TKOed and knocked out in two of those and he bit the guy's ear off to get the other one stopped prematurely. On top of that, he was the loser in arguably the biggest upset in boxing history.

I'd love to say Tyson stacks up against the best guys who ever laced them up in the division. His actual career accomplishments don't allow me to do so.

[9erempiree]

It's not just about longevity. It's about the myriad of excuses we have to read about every time Tyson's name pops up in a discussion, which usually centers around how he'd theoretically do against a true all-time great when the reality is he had several chances against other greats of his own era in real life and he was summarily blown out of the water each time.

If any other fan of any other athlete in any sport posted the avalanche of excuses which routinely are accepted when it comes to Tyson, they'd be laughed off the board and out of the room.

And, calling Tyson maybe the third best fighter of his generation isn't underrating him, let alone "criminally" underrating him. I was/am a big fan of Tyson. I love watching his old fights. I grew up with him knocking guys out left and right. He was the guy my generation revered and feared as we were growing up. It was a lot of fun.

But, I have too much respect for the sport to turn a blind eye to the facts (like most people do when it comes to Tyson) in favor of continuing the myths about a guy who was a devastating puncher and a promising young champion, but ultimately does not have enough substance to warrant being brought up in any "all-time" conversations.

His greatest wins were against an overblown light heavyweight and a middle aged former champion who hadn't fought in several years. He had three fights against the other best heavyweights of his generation. He was TKOed and knocked out in two of those and he bit the guy's ear off to get the other one stopped prematurely. On top of that, he was the loser in arguably the biggest upset in boxing history.

I'd love to say Tyson stacks up against the best guys who ever laced them up in the division. His actual career accomplishments don't allow me to do so.

:facepalm

It comes as no surprise to hear you say these things about Mike Tyson when I have heard you say some outrageous things praising Mayweather.

Stick to MMA.

:facepalm

[plowking]

Riddick Bowe

Funny you mention him seeing as he avoided Lennox like the plague. Did not want the fight. :oldlol:

[iamgine]

Funny you mention him seeing as he avoided Lennox like the plague. Did not want the fight. :oldlol:
He tried very hard dodging Lewis but that's a big mistake because I think he would have won. He was that good.

[plowking]

I'd love to say Tyson stacks up against the best guys who ever laced them up in the division. His actual career accomplishments don't allow me to do so.

That just sums up what I said.

I don't consider Tyson one of the best ever, and I don't ever put him anywhere near the top. And I never said anything about your previous post, or that calling him the 3rd best of his time was underrating him. I'm talking in general, your opinions about him.

Once again, he was a very special fighter, and a great young champion. I couldn't give a damn what happened in the Evander fights. If you actually believe Holyfield would stand a chance against Mike back in his prime, then good for you, but you need to reevaluate your passion and knowledge of boxing. I have no doubt Lennox beats Tyson at any point in his career, but Evander vs Tyson, both at their best, its not close.

And speaking of overrated fighters, Evander is very close to the top of that list.

[gigantes]

interesting arguments. so i'm much more of an MMA guy, but for all the accurate critique of tyson, isn't there another way of looking at him? i.e., as two separate fighters?

meaning, one guy who fought with the fury of the gods to make his surrogate father happy? and another guy, sometime after cus' death, who fought with wandering focus and little motivation from then on?

tyson #1's career had a shortish lifespan, but he did pretty much wreck everyone placed in front of him IIRC. that's all he could really do, right?

if he had merely been killed in a plane crash and not fallen apart after his father figure died, we wouldn't hold that against him, would we? we wouldn't say that tyson #2 was a disappointing fighter, therefore the greatness of tyson #1 was diminished by association?

would we?

[kNicKz]

Ali could go 15 rounds. Could Tyson?

1986 Tyson? Easily

People are using past prime arguments to make a case against prime Mike Tyson

[kNicKz]

Go watch Tyson vs Ribalta. He went past the the 4th round for the very first time in his career I believe. Ribalata was a very good fighter and too bad how the fight ended but you can clearly see Tyson's skill as a technical fighter.

Tyson's defense and instincts are criminally overlooked. He was an absolute master of the science. He studied tape religiously at Cus's house and was as technically sound as any fighter in the history of the sport

[kNicKz]

There isn't a heavyweight I'd take over Lennox to win a single fight apart from maybe Foreman.

You're joking right? Ali would murder Lewis

[DonD13]

you have Paul Malignaggi in your avi :lol

[raiderfan19]

Ranking Tyson as the 3rd best hw of his era might actually be generous. Lewis and Holyfield are obviously ahead of him, but bowe has a solid argument too(though he has the same longevity issue that Tyson has)

[kNicKz]

Ranking Tyson as the 3rd best hw of his era might actually be generous. Lewis and Holyfield are obviously ahead of him, but bowe has a solid argument too(though he has the same longevity issue that Tyson has)

Lewis and Holyfield are the 90's. Tyson is the 80's. They are not of the same era. Lewis and Holyfield entered their primes in their 30's. Tyson hit his prime in his late teens.

[raiderfan19]

Lewis and Holyfield are the 90's. Tyson is the 80's. They are not of the same era. Lewis and Holyfield entered their primes in their 30's. Tyson hit his prime in his late teens.
You realize that both Lewis and Holyfield are older than Tyson right???

So his era in your opinion is from 1986 to 1989????

[SCREWstonRockets]

Tyson might not have been the best HW in his era, but he was who everybody wanted to see. Same with Pacquiao, they are so popular because they were very fan friendly fighters. Tyson fought a lot of bums in his career but people didnt care. They just wanted to see somebody's head get knocked off. And that is what Tyson gave the fans.

You don't see many fighters, strike fear in their opponents like Tyson did. Some fights, he didnt even come to the ring with entrance music. But with horror movie sounds, which I thought was hilarious. :oldlol:

[deja vu]

Man... heavyweights today are so ploddingly slow, they bore me to sleep. :lol

Muhammad Ali/Cassius Clay in his prime was so blazingly fast with his hands and quick with his feet. How I wish we could see another heavyweight boxer like him.

[kNicKz]

You realize that both Lewis and Holyfield are older than Tyson right???

So his era in your opinion is from 1986 to 1989????

Yeah, he went to this place called prison after that. For 4 years he was the undisputed champion of the world ...

[raiderfan19]

Yeah, he went to this place called prison after that. For 4 years he was the undisputed champion of the world ...
You know the buster Douglas fight was before he went to prison right?

[kNicKz]

You know the buster Douglas fight was before he went to prison right?

You're aware that Lennox Lewis was put to sleep by Hasim Rahman? LOL

We can do this all day

[kNicKz]

So his era in your opinion is from 1986 to 1989????


yea



Mike Tyson vs. Buster Douglas February 11, 1990



You know the buster Douglas fight was before he went to prison right?

Pretty obvious that that was established .

[raiderfan19]

Here's the issue for Tyson fans, if you discount all his losses, then you also have to discount his biggest wins. You can't count a win over a 39 year old Larry Holmes as a major victory if you discount your own losses because you were outside your prime when they started when you were 23.


Also you are aware that Tyson never had another big win after Douglas, Lewis did after losing to rock.

[Carbine]

interesting arguments. so i'm much more of an MMA guy, but for all the accurate critique of tyson, isn't there another way of looking at him? i.e., as two separate fighters?

meaning, one guy who fought with the fury of the gods to make his surrogate father happy? and another guy, sometime after cus' death, who fought with wandering focus and little motivation from then on?

tyson #1's career had a shortish lifespan, but he did pretty much wreck everyone placed in front of him IIRC. that's all he could really do, right?

if he had merely been killed in a plane crash and not fallen apart after his father figure died, we wouldn't hold that against him, would we? we wouldn't say that tyson #2 was a disappointing fighter, therefore the greatness of tyson #1 was diminished by association?

would we?

Great point. I see too many people talk about Tyson's fights with Evander, Buster & Lewis as a reference to why he was overrated or just wouldn't stack up to former greats.

.....but he wasn't the same. He peaked way early, and fell apart mentally afterwards. Cus and to a point Rooney were his foundation as much as his actual boxing talents.

When we talk about Tyson vs. Ali and who would win.......we're suppose to debate the early Tyson vs. Ali, not the guy who lost to Buster, Lennox, etc when it was clear he wasn't the same boxer.

[kNicKz]

Here's the issue for Tyson fans, if you discount all his losses, then you also have to discount his biggest wins. You can't count a win over a 39 year old Larry Holmes as a major victory if you discount your own losses because you were outside your prime when they started when you were 23.


Also you are aware that Tyson never had another big win after Douglas, Lewis did after losing to rock.

except for that one time when he became heavyweight champion again after he got out of prison ...

[kNicKz]

Great point. I see too many people talk about Tyson's fights with Evander, Buster & Lewis as a reference to why he was overrated or just wouldn't stack up to former greats.

.....but he wasn't the same. He peaked way early, and fell apart mentally afterwards. Cus and to a point Rooney were his foundation as much as his actual boxing talents.

When we talk about Tyson vs. Ali and who would win.......we're suppose to debate the early Tyson vs. Ali, not the guy who lost to Buster, Lennox, etc when it was clear he wasn't the same boxer.

This is the nail that I have been trying to drive home. I don't give a **** if he lost to Lennox Lewis when he was 37 years old lol. 18 year old mike was a machine. People are talking about way past prime performances as arguments against him when the argument is prime vs. prime. Regardless of how short his prime was, it doesn't matter. 1986 Tyson is in the ring in this scenario. Using a fight that he lost 16 years after 1986 is not an argument to why he wouldn't perform well

[raiderfan19]

So just for the record his prime ended before he turned 24?

[kNicKz]

So just for the record his prime ended before he turned 24?

He is the youngest HW champion in the history of the sport, he peaked very early. The longevity of his prime is irrelevant in this discussion. It's 1986 Tyson vs. Prime Ali in a boxing ring. Sadly it isn't the resume competition that you are currently trying to make happen.

When you compare Andre Berto to an undisputed heavyweight champion , you should probably stop watching and discussing the sport

[RedBlackAttack]

That just sums up what I said.

I don't consider Tyson one of the best ever, and I don't ever put him anywhere near the top. And I never said anything about your previous post, or that calling him the 3rd best of his time was underrating him. I'm talking in general, your opinions about him.

Once again, he was a very special fighter, and a great young champion. I couldn't give a damn what happened in the Evander fights. If you actually believe Holyfield would stand a chance against Mike back in his prime, then good for you, but you need to reevaluate your passion and knowledge of boxing. I have no doubt Lennox beats Tyson at any point in his career, but Evander vs Tyson, both at their best, its not close.

And speaking of overrated fighters, Evander is very close to the top of that list.

Somehow, for all the talk about how unfair I am to Tyson, is this being fair to Evander Holyfield? Yes, I think the version of Holyfield that knocked Buster Douglas silly in under a round would beat any version of Tyson.

Here's the thing not often talked about when it comes to Mike. He exited prison and immediately got back to doing what he was doing in the mid-80s against inferior competition. I was deep into the sport at the time and the hype around Tyson going into that Holyfield fight was enormous. No one was talking about him being washed up or past his prime. He was a HEAVY favorite and few people were giving Holyfield a chance in hell.

Tyson was coming off of early stoppages against Bruce Seldon and Frank Bruno, two guys who maybe weren't great, but were comparable to many of the guys he was fighting early in his career, particularly Bruno. I mean, Bruno had beaten Oliver McCall the fight prior and Tyson just completely destroyed Bruno in under three rounds.

Until he fought Holyfield, no one had lasted three rounds with Tyson post-prison.

Then, suddenly, as soon as he's beaten, it means he is washed up and clearly not the same guy as he was in the 1980s and we shouldn't judge anything that happened after 1989.

It is not debatable that Holyfield was the best fighter Tyson had faced in his career up to that point. I guess it's just happenstance that his sudden decline from unbeatable to just very good happened at such a young age and became so crystal clear as soon as he fought another great fighter from his own era.

This is the selective reasoning I'm talking about when it comes to Tyson. There is no athlete who has ever lived that receives the amount of leeway as Tyson. And, if those excuses happen to come at the expense of another great fighter, so be it.


I feel like I rate Tyson exactly where he should be... A very good, ferocious fighter who was one of the hardest punchers to ever live, but not a guy who was going to be able to turn a fight around if it was going south. Often times when two great fighters go against each other, one will have to outwit the other by adapting during the fight. Tyson was never that guy. In fact, I saw him lose hope in several fights after falling behind early, despite his great natural gift of being a deadly puncher.

He was a modern day Sonny Liston (that would be a fight I'd love to see, Tyson-Liston). The kind of guy who will knock you into next week if you allow him to bully you and dictate the fight. However, a bit lost when a guy matched him.

The biggest difference is Tyson didn't beat a Floyd Patterson level champion in his career. For a guy as highly rated by many people as Tyson, he doesn't have the kind of wins to justify it. It's almost completely based on these "what if" scenarios.

We'll just have to agree to disagree if you don't see it that way.

[tontoz]

For those of you saying Mike was in his prime when he lost to Douglas, that's really not anywhere near the truth. He very clearly was not.


That was only 2 years after he knocked out Spinks in 91 seconds. He was still in his 20s.

He would have had trouble with Douglas at any time because of Douglas' reach and lack of fear. Douglas didn't just win the fight, he punk'd Tyson.

Meanwhile Ali's loss against Frazier was after his 3+ year ban for refusing military service.

[gigantes]

... This is the selective reasoning I'm talking about when it comes to Tyson. There is no athlete who has ever lived that receives the amount of leeway as Tyson. And, if those excuses happen to come at the expense of another great fighter, so be it. ...
well-said, sir, but it seems you are also using a date of your choosing to make your big judgement of tyson. i.e. his first loss, i.e. when he went from a potential great to 3rd-best of his generation.

but i was trying to say earlier that his will had been departing earlier for various reasons. this also explains how someone that young could be washed up so quickly. and sure............ it's an unusual reason among athletes, but it does happen... like with shawn kemp and such. so isn't that just reality, and in the attempt to be fair, we call a spade a spade and make an exception in our ruleset?

i'll ask it again-- don't you think it's unfair to blame prime tyson for not beating better HW's? i mean, he DID knock off everyone placed in front of him, including all the precious belt-holders and such. tony tucker... pinklon thomas on top of the ones already mentioned.

[gigantes]

another thing- few fighters indeed made a career out of dismantling top-level competition like a predator tearing apart its prey. not even ali, lewis or the oldies were quite that good AFAIK.

i mean, the 'cans' may be a bit of a factor, but overall i would think the majority (or all) of his opponents were still top-5 / top-10 material.

so this is kind of an X-factor that you can't measure by numbers, but i don't think it should be left out of the discussion. nobody, but nobody, in sports doesn't have a measure of 'greatness' for owning this fairly rare quality.

[raiderfan19]

The issue is, never a single time in Tyson's career did he beat a great fighter. Not once. Nor to be honest was he ever even competitive with one. Saying he didn't beat all the greats is one thing, but he didn't even looked like he belonged in the same ring.

And as for him falling apart and others doing it to, the history of boxing is littered with guys who were going to be amazing and ended up not being special when they actually fought someone good. Were they dominant to the extent young Tyson was? No but then again his skill set was perfect for dismantling cans and looking great doing it.

[Sarcastic]

Tyson is just a smaller version of George Foreman.

I'd take Ali by TKO in round 10.


:facepalm

Foreman and Tyson were nothing alike as fighters.

[RedBlackAttack]

well-said, sir, but it seems you are also using a date of your choosing to make your big judgement of tyson. i.e. his first loss, i.e. when he went from a potential great to 3rd-best of his generation.

See, I don't think I'm doing that. I'm looking at his career as a whole like we do with all other boxers. I'm not diminishing the first half of his career when he was dominant in the 1980s. That's why I call him a very promising young champion who was a ferocious puncher.

However, I'm also weighing that against what he did later in the late-80s and 1990s. He wasn't horrible in the '90s, that's the thing. Again, that's what isn't talked much about in these Tyson threads. I'd put his early stoppages of Seldon (1996), Botha (1999) and Golota (2000) as some of the most impressive performances of his career, including what he did in the 1980s.

Botha gave Moorer a competitive fight for 12 rounds before being stopped late, Seldon was coming off the best win of his career and Golota was Golota.

Mike dispatched all three with ease (even if Golota was more due to complete insanity). That's also part of the reason I think it's impossible to simply dismiss the Holyfield defeats. They came amidst some very impressive performances by Mike.


but i was trying to say earlier that his will had been departing earlier for various reasons. this also explains how someone that young could be washed up so quickly. and sure............ it's an unusual reason among athletes, but it does happen... like with shawn kemp and such. so isn't that just reality, and in the attempt to be fair, we call a spade a spade and make an exception in our ruleset?

i'll ask it again-- don't you think it's unfair to blame prime tyson for not beating better HW's? i mean, he DID knock off everyone placed in front of him, including all the precious belt-holders and such. tony tucker... pinklon thomas on top of the ones already mentioned.

I just don't think the reality backs up the claim that Tyson was washed up in his early-20s. It's not his fault the HW division was so bad in the mid-80s, but I think it's foolish to grade him based only on those years when he was facing good but not great competition.

Especially since, later in his career, he really did face great competition and they came among some really nice wins over guys comparable to those he was facing in the 80s. There's no reason for me to believe Tyson was a totally different guy or that the things Holyfield did to throw Tyson's game off wouldn't have been successful five years prior.

Part of Holyfield's successful plan was roughing Mike up and getting him mentally out of the fight. I don't see that approach being any less successful against Mike in 1988.

[plowking]

Its funny David Tua didn't get more love during his career.
Another short, powerful heavyweight, who was probably an even harder hitter (one of the hardest ever), had a better chin, and actually strung together some nice wins.

[oh the horror]

So basically what people are saying is we can only compare them at a certain point In their careers since Tyson didn't age very well past his extremely short prime?


If that doesn't tell you anything then I don't know wtf will.

[RedBlackAttack]

Its funny David Tua didn't get more love during his career.
Another short, powerful heavyweight, who was probably an even harder hitter (one of the hardest ever), had a better chin, and actually strung together some nice wins.
Tua was talked about as a Mike Tyson clone for the first half of his career. He actually was getting a good amount of hype leading into the Lennox Lewis fight even though he had already lost (to my man Ike Ibeabuchi).

The biggest difference between Tua and Tyson early in their careers was Tyson would attack guys with hellacious combinations which would break ribs and crack skulls. Tua had the power, but tended to throw one punch at a time. That's what got him into trouble against Ibeabuchi.

You're right, though. Considering his knockout power, you'd think he would have captured the public's imagination more than he did. The fact that he was from New Zealand probably didn't help him in America.

His knocking out John Ruiz, one of the most annoyingly winning boxers of all-time, was among my favorite sports moments of the 1990s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj5e7NPWnrY


Tyson had a fantastic chin, btw. That was never an issue. In all three of his most notable losses, he took a tremendous amount of punishment that would have finished most guys. Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis were teeing off on him and it took crazy punishment for him to finally give in.

[plowking]

Tua was talked about as a Mike Tyson clone for the first half of his career. He actually was getting a good amount of hype leading into the Lennox Lewis fight even though he had already lost (to my man Ike Ibeabuchi).

The biggest difference between Tua and Tyson early in their careers was Tyson would attack guys with hellacious combinations which would break ribs and crack skulls. Tua had the power, but tended to throw one punch at a time. That's what got him into trouble against Ibeabuchi.

You're right, though. Considering his knockout power, you'd think he would have captured the public's imagination more than he did. The fact that he was from New Zealand probably didn't help him in America.

His knocking out John Ruiz, one of the most annoyingly winning boxers of all-time, was among my favorite sports moments of the 1990s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj5e7NPWnrY


Tyson had a fantastic chin, btw. That was never an issue. In all three of his most notable losses, he took a tremendous amount of punishment that would have finished most guys. Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis were teeing off on him and it took crazy punishment for him to finally give in.

Tua's weight really started to get the best of him right around the Ibeabuchi fight. I really would have liked to see what Tua could have done to Lewis if he was in his 225lbs best fighting weight.

Ibeabuchi is one of my favorite fighters too. After reading all the stories about him, and how much of a nutjob he actually was, it was hard not to get behind him. :oldlol:

[gigantes]

oh c'mon, RBA... you can understand us better than that. you're hitting like 40% of what we're really trying to say.

[bah, suspended rant... later]

[iamgine]

I think what we need to ask is did 86-89 Tyson had the power, speed, technique and skills to win against Ali. Tyson's old trainer Kevin Rooney recently said Mike would've won based on what he saw.

The mental part is very debatable since Tyson himself had said he wasn't focused after '89. Either you believe it or not.

[secund2nun]

Tyson.

[Rondo]

Ali would outsmart him and win tactically.

Tyson, however, would destroy Ali in a straight up fight.

[plowking]

Ali would outsmart him and win tactically.

Tyson, however, would destroy Ali in a straight up fight.

LOL at the outsmart and win tactically.

Its clear those who have watched Tyson highlights, and those who actually watched his fights. He was a master technically and tactically in the ring. He knew exactly what he had to do.

People act as if he went in there and flailed his arms as hard as he could and connected. He had some of the best defense the heavyweight division has ever seen.

[kNicKz]

LOL at the outsmart and win tactically.

Its clear those who have watched Tyson highlights, and those who actually watched his fights. He was a master technically and tactically in the ring. He knew exactly what he had to do.

People act as if he went in there and flailed his arms as hard as he could and connected. He had some of the best defense the heavyweight division has ever seen.

This

equivalent to NBA forum children :
"Vince Carter never got a ring because all he could do was dunk!!"

[RedBlackAttack]

Some of the best defense the division has "ever seen"? Come on, plowking. :oldlol:


In commemoration of this thread...

Mike Tyson playing Mike Tyson's PunchOut for the first time ever. (http://mashable.com/2013/08/22/mike-tyson-punch-out/)

[plowking]

Some of the best defense the division has "ever seen"? Come on, plowking. :oldlol:


In commemoration of this thread...

Mike Tyson playing Mike Tyson's PunchOut for the first time ever. (http://mashable.com/2013/08/22/mike-tyson-punch-out/)

Clearly you're intent on pushing the idea that Tyson was the same fighter when he fought Lewis and Holyfield as he was when he first won the heavyweight title. But whatever, I can see past that and realize its not so.

The funny thing is, I'm agreeing with you on almost everything. I don't get what your debate is? I agree that Holyfield and Lewis should be considered better fighers, that he is barely the 3rd best heavyweight of his time, that he is an underachiever, and that he is overrated.

I simply think he wasn't great early on just because he fought tomato cans (which is soo overstated for Tyson), but because he was a fantastic fighter early on.

[kNicKz]

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images/cm-30162-05098640647d48.gif

[RedBlackAttack]

Clearly you're intent on pushing the idea that Tyson was the same fighter when he fought Lewis and Holyfield as he was when he first won the heavyweight title. But whatever, I can see past that and realize its not so.

The funny thing is, I'm agreeing with you on almost everything. I don't get what your debate is? I agree that Holyfield and Lewis should be considered better fighers, that he is barely the 3rd best heavyweight of his time, that he is an underachiever, and that he is overrated.

I simply think he wasn't great early on just because he fought tomato cans (which is soo overstated for Tyson), but because he was a fantastic fighter early on.
I'm not trying to argue with you, man. I was just giving my natural reaction to that particular statement.

Tyson was a good defensive fighter, especially considering his swarming, aggressive style. I'll also say that the heavyweights, generally speaking, do not have the boxing acumen of the smaller guys, so a HW fighter doesn't quite have the competition for the "best defensive fighter ever" as, say, a lightweight or welterweight.

I just wouldn't put Tyson amongst the very best of the best and I'm talking about early Tyson as well as middle and late career Tyson. His ducking, bobbing head movement worked very well in conjunction with his offensive skillset. His defensive style was very much in the mold of a Joe Frazier and both guys, because of their combination of good head movement and power made a lot of guys they were facing afraid to let their hands go (I definitely can't blame them :oldlol: ). He was also a good (underrated) counter-puncher.

But, I can't put him on the level with guys who fought in a more classic boxer style, stayed behind a jab and weren't looking to knock guys out with every punch. It's almost impossible to fight in that kind of a style and remain one of the best defensive fighters ever. Because he was always looking to get inside and land those hard punches, Mike was susceptible to a good jab or little well timed combinations and then getting out of there or tying up. Mike was also caught many times over his career with well timed uppercuts because he tended to walk in winging punches with his head tucked into his chest. Even before Douglas came along, guys like Tucker, Tillis and Mitch Green had some success with those kinds of strategies and those guys weren't exactly great offensive fighters.

It's funny, because the gif posted above is from his fight with Tillis who actually did have some success keeping Mike at bay. That was probably Tyson's closest fight up until the Douglas debacle. It's worth watching the whole thing...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVGyjvulVcs

It's an interesting fight and one you won't see on "Tyson's Greatest Knockouts," because Tillis hung in there with him throughout. And, this was a young Tyson, just his 20th fight. Tillis sort of set the blueprint which Douglas later used so well.


Ask most historians and Joe Johnson is generally considered the greatest heavyweight defensive fighter ever. He basically brought the lightweight style to the heavyweight division, the first guy to do that. Gene Tunney was similarly ahead of his time.

But, even if you look at guys who weren't great fighters but became champions almost solely because of their defense like a Chris Byrd. If Tyson had the defense of a Chris Byrd with Mike's power and accuracy, he WOULDN'T be the most overrated fighter ever because I don't think anyone would be able to beat him. But, that is pretty much the only thing Byrd did better than Tyson, which is why Tyson was a better fighter.




Now, if you wanted to say Tyson was one of the best defensive fighters ever who fought in that aggressive, swarming style, I could get on board with that. It's just a matter of semantics I guess.

[plowking]

Now, if you wanted to say Tyson was one of the best defensive fighters ever who fought in that aggressive, swarming style, I could get on board with that. It's just a matter of semantics I guess.

More in the line of what I was trying to say.

[RedBlackAttack]

More in the line of what I was trying to say.
Fair enough. Check out the Tillis fight when you get a chance. I'm re-watching it now. Very interesting fight.

[gigantes]

i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.


http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif


and apparently silva really is going to fight roy jones assuming anderson gets his belt back.

[kNicKz]

The Tyson hate is strong

:roll:

[gigantes]

not like he didn't bring it on himself at the time. he was a small step from being a psychopath.


amazing that he's actually a pretty smart, thoughtful, humble guy... just took him a million miles to get there because of where he started out. he doesn't get enough credit for it IMO.

[LeGOAT]

Tyson is just a smaller version of George Foreman.

I'd take Ali by TKO in round 10.
Stop prentending you know about boxing

[OhNoTimNoSho]

i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.


http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif


and apparently silva really is going to fight roy jones assuming anderson gets his belt back.
wow thats amazing, what fight is this?

[MavsSuperFan]

prime tyson.

[gigantes]

wow thats amazing, what fight is this?
i'm thinking early - mid 70's?

i thought it might have been ken norton at first, but that guy is too small to be him IMO. any boxing fans know?

[GOBB]

Ali beat Liston and Frazier. Two boxers comparable to Mike Tyson. Not to mention Ken Norton, George Foreman, Archie Moore. Basically to act like Tyson power is unseen vs Ali is funny. Ali faced hard hitters and withstood those punches.

Ali wins this match because he could go the distance. Tyson? Not so much. If he couldnt KO Ali early in the fight then as it wore on Tyson would get wreckless, careless in the ring. Frustrated and severely anxious.

Tyson has good traits about him as a boxer over Ali. But Ali style would have frustrated Tyson in this match. The fact Ali has a much better chin is another plus. And like I said, Ali went the distance vs many notable boxers and pulled out wins. Tyson? Not so much.

Ali wins. :banana:


i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.


http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif


:roll:


Ali :bowdown:

[kNicKz]

not like he didn't bring it on himself at the time. he was a small step from being a psychopath.


amazing that he's actually a pretty smart, thoughtful, humble guy... just took him a million miles to get there because of where he started out. he doesn't get enough credit for it IMO.

I understand that but to go as far as discrediting his ring accomplishments?

:facepalm

Some random scrub in this thread called him an Andre Berto level fighter

[plowking]

wow thats amazing, what fight is this?

It was against Michael Dokes.

I think it was a charity match or something since I think it only went 3 or 4 rounds. Ali was really out of shape in the fight, you can probably even see it just from the gif.

[gigantes]

I understand that but to go as far as discrediting his ring accomplishments?

:facepalm

Some random scrub in this thread called him an Andre Berto level fighter
well i guess that's what random scrubs tend to do, huh? :D


i think the debates RBA and others had about his ring accomplishments pretty much cover it at this point.

[RedBlackAttack]

The Tyson hate is strong

:roll:
I actually loved Tyson. Still do.

[eliteballer]

Ali beat Liston and Frazier. Two boxers comparable to Mike Tyson. Not to mention Ken Norton, George Foreman, Archie Moore. Basically to act like Tyson power is unseen vs Ali is funny. Ali faced hard hitters and withstood those punches.

Ali wins this match because he could go the distance. Tyson? Not so much. If he couldnt KO Ali early in the fight then as it wore on Tyson would get wreckless, careless in the ring. Frustrated and severely anxious.

Tyson has good traits about him as a boxer over Ali. But Ali style would have frustrated Tyson in this match. The fact Ali has a much better chin is another plus. And like I said, Ali went the distance vs many notable boxers and pulled out wins. Tyson? Not so much.

Ali wins. :banana:




:roll:


Ali :bowdown:

True...Ali fought in arguably the most talented era in boxing history, he fought and beat a bunch of the best heavyweights in history. That's why he's held in such high esteem. Other guys might have less losses but it's due to having fought mostly bums(marciano) Tyson was great but he didn't really beat great fighters. Foreman and Frazier alone probably had as much power as anyone in history,

[Lebron23]

Mike Tyson struggled against taller boxers who uses jabs. Ali had one of the best jab combo's in boxing history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huUlMwYvsx0 Prime Mike Tyson has a better chance of beating Frazier, Norton, Marciano, and Floyd Patterson in a head to head match up.

[Lebron23]

True...Ali fought in arguably the most talented era in boxing history, he fought and beat a bunch of the best heavyweights in history. That's why he's held in such high esteem. Other guys might have less losses but it's due to having fought mostly bums(marciano) Tyson was great but he didn't really beat great fighters. Foreman and Frazier alone probably had as much power as anyone in history,


He beat Prime Michael Spinks, and a 37 yrs.old Larry Holmes who was a still a very good Heavyweight. Post Prison Tyson was not the same boxer as Mike Tyson from 1985 to 1992. Young Mike Tyson uses better head movements, much faster, and a better defensive boxer than 1995 to 2003 Mike Tyson.

and No Lennox Lewis didn't beat a Prime Mike Tyson. Lennox retired from boxing because the younger K brothers would have beaten him in a rematch.

Riddick Bowe beat a much better version of Evander Holyfield in the early 1990's.

[Lebron23]

http://d22zlbw5ff7yk5.cloudfront.net/images /cm-30162-05098640647d48.gif


Pernell Whittakeresque/ William Pepesque.

[CelticBaller]

i guess anderson silva learned a lot from this guy.


http://img.izismile.com/img/img6/20131212/1000/daily_gifdump_517_17.gif


and apparently silva really is going to fight roy jones assuming anderson gets his belt back.
:bowdown:

[RedBlackAttack]

Pernell Whittakeresque/ William Pepesque.
Hardly. Watch the whole fight. Tyson was getting tagged by right uppercuts all night long when he tried that stuff.

[TonyMontana]

Ali.

The people that pick Tyson do so because in real life they are huge PUSSlES and degenerate punks like Tyson are the kind of people that intimidate/scare them. Ali would DESTROY him. Lol @ thinking Ali would be intimidated by Tysons ghetto low IQ bullshit. Thats Tysons niche and the reason PUSSIE dudes think he's such a scary/good fighter. Alis skill, size, and mental toughness would be too much.

[Lebron23]

Muhammad Ali

[Jasper]

tyson is the most overrated boxer of all time

ali easily

100% correct ... Tyson is Frazier and we know who won the most battles there.