Don't make a fool of yourself young man you never saw him play

[Niquesports]

Basketball is a game for all ages.I love the history of the game and respect it.I feel the Golden Era of the game was from 80-95.Many younger poster get on the board and have know idea how Great players like Elgin Baylor,Bob Petie,Elvin Hayes,Nate Archabld ect.... Were. When I hear people having Oscar outside a top 10. I just can't call you a basketball fan.Kobe,LBJ are special players , But so was Elgin,Walt Frazier,Moses Malone,George Gervin. Just ask . Just say hey how good was so and so . Don't assume PP was better than any of the greats because I have seen them both and he isnt . You have only seen PP and read stats of the Older Greats.

[BlueandGold]

Basketball is a game for all ages.I love the history of the game and respect it.I feel the Golden Era of the game was from 80-95.Many younger poster get on the board and have know idea how Great players like Elgin Baylor,Bob Petie,Elvin Hayes,Nate Archabld ect.... Were. When I hear people having Oscar outside a top 10. I just can't call you a basketball fan.Kobe,LBJ are special players , But so was Elgin,Walt Frazier,Moses Malone,George Gervin. Just ask . Just say hey how good was so and so . Don't assume PP was better than any of the greats because I have seen them both and he isnt . You have only seen PP and read stats of the Older Greats.

Have you posted in the ISH top10 and ISH top11-20 threads?

I, along with many other knowledgeable NBA posters, have Oscar just outside the top10 (i have him right at #11) since there is only so much room.

Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt.

Those 10 are clearly the first-tier top10 players, how can you justify bumping one of those players off for Oscar? Just because he averaged a triple-double? (in reality a 20/8/8 type of season adjusted for pace)

Plus are you drunk or something? That or you forgot how to speak english.

[StroShow4]

Awesome thread. You're cool.

[swi7ch]

How many titles and MVPs did Oscar win?

[Poetry]

I view it the same way i view criticism in any field. You have to have a background in the field to have a valid opinion. The less you know, the weaker your opinion is.

If you say Pulp Fiction is the greatest movie made, no one is going to take you seriously, especially if you haven't watched anything made prior to 1990.

[NuggetsFan]

What I don't get is why older basketball fans believe they are so much smarter than younger one's. Unless your really old, you never saw Wilt and co play. Back than it wasn't even televised anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong only the 4th quarter of Wilt's 100 game was on the radio? right?. In today's day and age it's crazy. I'm 21 and even going back like 7 years ago the difference is insane, basketball fans that are 13-14 are insanely spoiled. If a 15 year kid wanted too, he could find TONS of footage on Magic and Bird. Look at archives of old newspapers, probably find old radio airings. You can find out how successful a player today is at running the P&R down to an exact %. You literally can watch 82 games of your favorite team, among sooo many others. How many live games would the average basketball fan watch in 1976?

Age doesn't really matter for the most part. It depends on how much a person is willing to research. A 16 year old kid can know just as much about Oscar Robertson as a 30 year old man would. Unless your way up there in age and you got to see these guy's play live, being a young fan doesn't really hold any disadvantage :confusedshrug:

[Niquesports]

Have you posted in the ISH top10 and ISH top11-20 threads?

I, along with many other knowledgeable NBA posters, have Oscar just outside the top10 (i have him right at #11) since there is only so much room.

Jordan, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt.

Those 10 are clearly the first-tier top10 players, how can you justify bumping one of those players off for Oscar? Just because he averaged a triple-double? (in reality a 20/8/8 type of season adjusted for pace)

Plus are you drunk or something? That or you forgot how to speak english.
Oscar is and was clearly better than Kobe,Hakeem,Duncan. He changed the game. He was the first real Big PG.He was Magic before Magic but could score and defend better.His teams didn't win well what team did while playing against the GREAT CELTIC teams. How many rings Hakeem have while Jordan was playing?Kobe really ? Name another ALL TIME Great that it took 4 to 5 years befor he was really a factor ? All the other I mean all the other ten were great from begining to end. Not just the middle.Duncan can't say much bad but his numbers don't compare to Karl malone's he is a great player in a great system.

[Kovach]

I hate player rankings and player comparisons. There were way too many great players during the course of basketball history to be tamped into top 5 or 10 or 20 or even 100 lists, and player comparisons, especially of players from different eras, are nothing more than conjecture-ridden baloney. I could be arsed to make a list of my favorite players, but making the list of players I subjectively think were the best of all time serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever and is a monumental waste of time. Oh and arguing over which players is "better" is akin to arguing over whose dad would beat up whose.

[JohnnySic]

Age is important in that it gives you perspective. You realize that a lot of the stuff that happens is cyclical and repetitive.

For example, a young fan may get carried away with how great he thinks a player is - say, Derrick Rose perhaps. An old head has seen it all before and knows that this player, in a historical sense, is nothing all that special.

[Kovach]

If you say Pulp Fiction is the greatest movie made, no one is going to take you seriously, especially if you haven't watched anything made prior to 1990.
This however does not mean that watching films made prior to 1990 is necessarily going to change your mind.

[Niquesports]

How many titles and MVPs did Oscar win?
Well with him playing iin a era against the GREATEST TEAM in all team Sports History NONE. He also didnt have the luxuary to pack up and go play with Elgin and West. Like LBJ did. BUt hold up it was Oscar that fought and made it possible for players like Lebron to have FA's

[Mr. I'm So Rad]

What's up with all these angry old guys on ISH?

[NuggetsFan]

Age is important in that it gives you perspective. You realize that a lot of the stuff that happens is cyclical and repetitive.

For example, a young fan may get carried away with how great he thinks a players is - say, Derrick Rose perhaps. An old head has seen it all before and knows that this player, in a historical sense, is nothing all that special.

I'm 21 so not sure what that makes me but I think it's silly to think that the younger generation won't end up being far more educated basketball fans. A 12 year old kid can literally sit at home and watch 82 Boston Celtic games. Social media, statistics etc. are so much more advanced that people can literally double check what they are seeing. Back than a fan would be like Kevin Johnson is a BEAST at running the pick and roll, another one be like no blah blah and you'd argue. In today's day and age you can't do that. We've got numbers down to the point where you can just flat out say you're wrong.

Even compare it to the 90's. As a little kid growing up I had MJ shit shoved down my throat. Shoes, Junior Jammers, Movies, Cereal Boxes etc. Kids are far more informed. Back in the 60's you had what? Listen to the game on the radio for the most part. Read the newspaper? Kids in China probably weren't hearing about Wilt Chamberlain like they did with Jordan or LeBron James now.

If you could pick any generation to be a fan of the sport without taking talent into consideration right now is the choice, without a doubt.

[Poetry]

A 16 year old kid can know just as much about Oscar Robertson as a 30 year old man would. Unless your way up there in age and you got to see these.

But keep in mind, there's a difference between watching the game and understanding it.

When you turn 30, start a conversation with a 16 year old and discuss basketball.

Unless he understands the nuisances of the game, the kind of understanding that only comes with having watched thousands of games and players, individual player ticks and affectations, you might as well be talking to your mom, because most 16 year olds don't have a firm grasp of the game.

[Niquesports]

What I don't get is why older basketball fans believe they are so much smarter than younger one's. Unless your really old, you never saw Wilt and co play. Back than it wasn't even televised anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong only the 4th quarter of Wilt's 100 game was on the radio? right?. In today's day and age it's crazy. I'm 21 and even going back like 7 years ago the difference is insane, basketball fans that are 13-14 are insanely spoiled. If a 15 year kid wanted too, he could find TONS of footage on Magic and Bird. Look at archives of old newspapers, probably find old radio airings. You can find out how successful a player today is at running the P&R down to an exact %. You literally can watch 82 games of your favorite team, among sooo many others. How many live games would the average basketball fan watch in 1976?

Age doesn't really matter for the most part. It depends on how much a person is willing to research. A 16 year old kid can know just as much about Oscar Robertson as a 30 year old man would. Unless your way up there in age and you got to see these guy's play live, being a young fan doesn't really hold any disadvantage :confusedshrug:


Todays players are bigger,stronger,faster. But so is everything else. So the only measeuring stick is how great was a player against his peers.You have a point Nuggets fan tell me how great was Jo Jo White do you know?How about Gail Goodrich ?

[alleykat]

What I don't get is why older basketball fans believe they are so much smarter than younger one's. Unless your really old, you never saw Wilt and co play. Back than it wasn't even televised anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong only the 4th quarter of Wilt's 100 game was on the radio? right?. In today's day and age it's crazy. I'm 21 and even going back like 7 years ago the difference is insane, basketball fans that are 13-14 are insanely spoiled. If a 15 year kid wanted too, he could find TONS of footage on Magic and Bird. Look at archives of old newspapers, probably find old radio airings. You can find out how successful a player today is at running the P&R down to an exact %. You literally can watch 82 games of your favorite team, among sooo many others. How many live games would the average basketball fan watch in 1976?

Age doesn't really matter for the most part. It depends on how much a person is willing to research. A 16 year old kid can know just as much about Oscar Robertson as a 30 year old man would. Unless your way up there in age and you got to see these guy's play live, being a young fan doesn't really hold any disadvantage :confusedshrug:

it's because you didn't live in the time era. A lot of basketball fans of the newer generation are raised around the media hype, therefore they will defend their favorite player or grill another player just so their player looks better. This usually ends with "U MAD?" at the end of their reasoning. That's why most people view the newer generation of fans as ignorant.

Age really does matter, when it comes to this. A fan of an era will almost always view the stars of their decade as infinitely better. You can tell when people post stuff like "these dudes won because they came from a weak era".
People nowadays are surrounded by insurmountable fans on message boards and in their own respective cities hyping their own hometown hero up. Basketball is worldwide and reaches everywhere nowadays down to the sponsorships and message boards, and it has never been more popular.

If you were living in that era of the past, your image of basketball wouldn't be as influenced by the media or sponsorships selling shoes. You have to live in the actual era to understand the cultural impact as well as the hype that these player did or didn't get....

I bet you 50 years from now when some new hotshot becomes the best player in the league, you will get guys who view these tapes of Kobe and Lebron or Jordan and say "they played in a weak era" or "they were good but overrated"....they wouldn't understand their impact in the game in context.

[StroShow4]

When you turn 30, start a conversation with a 16 year old and discuss basketball.

I'm 23. I've had plenty of conversations with 30, 40, 50, and even 60+ year olds about the NBA and basketball in general that left me feeling dumber having had them.

[NuggetsFan]

Todays players are bigger,stronger,faster. But so is everything else. So the only measeuring stick is how great was a player against his peers.You have a point Nuggets fan tell me how great was Jo Jo White do you know?How about Gail Goodrich ?

I enjoy older basketball. I like hearing other people's opinions about it, seeing some old footage, reading people's lists etc. Personally that's about as far as I go. I don't care enough to research it. I'm not going to study Gail Goodrich, I prefer living in the now. If I wanted too? I could tho. I'm 21 and I could find out just as much as a guy who's 10 years older than me. A 14 year old kid could do the exact same as well.

How many older players on ISH watch Gail Goodrich play? How many of his rookie games were televised for everybody too see in '65? How many games did you catch? Could you imagine somebody coming on ISH tomorrow and being like I watched Kobe Bryant play 10 times this year, read his statistics from the newspaper .. and here's my opinion on him. What would be people's reactions? .. we'd laugh.

Everything that's available today, is available to everybody. And like I said if you were even kicking it in '65? Whatever advantage you would have in knowing about Gail Goodrich, we could learn. Everybody who did watch basketball back than has went on to tell about it. Basketball in 1965 is probably far more looking into NOW than it was back than.

[Niquesports]

I'm 21 so not sure what that makes me but I think it's silly to think that the younger generation won't end up being far more educated basketball fans. A 12 year old kid can literally sit at home and watch 82 Boston Celtic games. Social media, statistics etc. are so much more advanced that people can literally double check what they are seeing. Back than a fan would be like Kevin Johnson is a BEAST at running the pick and roll, another one be like no blah blah and you'd argue. In today's day and age you can't do that. We've got numbers down to the point where you can just flat out say you're wrong.

Even compare it to the 90's. As a little kid growing up I had MJ shit shoved down my throat. Shoes, Junior Jammers, Movies, Cereal Boxes etc. Kids are far more informed. Back in the 60's you had what? Listen to the game on the radio for the most part. Read the newspaper? Kids in China probably weren't hearing about Wilt Chamberlain like they did with Jordan or LeBron James now.

If you could pick any generation to be a fan of the sport without taking talent into consideration right now is the choice, without a doubt.
I agree with the last part. And I also agree you can youtube almost and star. But to understand a players greatness you must also know how great his peers were or should I say good.Sure a kid can see or read Russ and the Celtics won 11 they were good. But when you also see /know how good the teams Wilt played on,Elgin,West Lakers even the team Oscar was on that take Russ and the Celtics into greatness. For them to be able to win 11 even that St Louis team with Pettie was a very good team.

[INDI]

How many titles and MVPs did Oscar win?

1and 1. The cool thing about oscar though was wasn't he the first pg ever to win the MVP award? I don't know for a fact but I think I heard that somewhere

[NuggetsFan]

I'm 23. I've had plenty of conversations with 30, 40, 50, and even 60+ year olds about the NBA and basketball in general that left me feeling dumber having had them.

Exactly. Regardless of age there will always be idiots. Take StroShow for example. He has a website that literally shows you who gets dunked on. A 14 year old kid can know to an EXACT number how many times Blake Griffin dunked in somebody's face.

You weren't doing that in '65 because you couldn't watch every single game from every single team back than.

[Poetry]

I'm 23. I've had plenty of conversations with 30, 40, 50, and even 60+ year olds about the NBA and basketball in general that leave me feeling dumber having had them.

Sure but when it comes down to it, a 30-year-old hardcore basketball fan will know more than a 16-year-old hardcore basketball fan by virtue of simply knowing more.

Will the 16-year-old hardcore basketball fan know more than a casual fan of any age? More than likely.

But when he enters the arena of conversation with someone who simply has had more time to learn about the game, the difference will be noticeable.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't care if your 75, you didn't see THAT many games.

30 years ago the finals weren't even televised live.

Basketball in 50's & 60's was RARELY televised.

Anybody can go on youtube and have more acess to old NBA footage than anybody living in the 50's, who if lucky MAYBE saw a game or 2 every season.

[Niquesports]

I enjoy older basketball. I like hearing other people's opinions about it, seeing some old footage, reading people's lists etc. Personally that's about as far as I go. I don't care enough to research it. I'm not going to study Gail Goodrich, I prefer living in the now. If I wanted too? I could tho. I'm 21 and I could find out just as much as a guy who's 10 years older than me. A 14 year old kid could do the exact same as well.

How many older players on ISH watch Gail Goodrich play? How many of his rookie games were televised for everybody too see in '65? How many games did you catch? Could you imagine somebody coming on ISH tomorrow and being like I watched Kobe Bryant play 10 times this year, read his statistics from the newspaper .. and here's my opinion on him. What would be people's reactions? .. we'd laugh.

Everything that's available today, is available to everybody. And like I said if you were even kicking it in '65? Whatever advantage you would have in knowing about Gail Goodrich, we could learn. Everybody who did watch basketball back than has went on to tell about it. Basketball in 1965 is probably far more looking into NOW than it was back than.


I can respect your opinions Nuggets fan. I guess that my point today we know the PG for the Kings :facepalm No disrespect to Tyree but Gail was just as good if not better. Im just saying for the young guys to love and learn the game. But FYI Gail played in the backcourt with West . Played at UCLA on one of the first of the great Wooden teams . But I respect you wish more young guys were like you

[game3524]

Basketball is a game for all ages.I love the history of the game and respect it.I feel the Golden Era of the game was from 80-95.Many younger poster get on the board and have know idea how Great players like Elgin Baylor,Bob Petie,Elvin Hayes,Nate Archabld ect.... Were. When I hear people having Oscar outside a top 10. I just can't call you a basketball fan.Kobe,LBJ are special players , But so was Elgin,Walt Frazier,Moses Malone,George Gervin. Just ask . Just say hey how good was so and so . Don't assume PP was better than any of the greats because I have seen them both and he isnt . You have only seen PP and read stats of the Older Greats.


It might have to deal with the fact that his numbers are inflated do to pace and he really didn't accomplishes much in terms of team success(Only one 50 win team when he was in Cincy).

Oscar is an all-time great, but it isn't ridiculous to think he isn't a top ten player.

[AK47DR91]

The best way to be considered in the All-Time Greatest Players list is to simply be the best player of your generation.

[jongib369]

Todays players are bigger,stronger,faster. But so is everything else. So the only measeuring stick is how great was a player against his peers.You have a point Nuggets fan tell me how great was Jo Jo White do you know?How about Gail Goodrich ?
I dont agree, the average NBA fan no matter the knowledge they have of the previous stars will always have time Bias...it takes a RARE type of KID to be able to get past that...Thats why an adult perspective will ALWAYS be a little more respectable when it comes to things like this IMO....For example, you're the same age I am...Idk about you, but I can't take MOST 14 or 15 year olds seriously.. While you can say adults have a time bias as well..but just like the RARE breed of kids, there are adults who can look at everything objectively as well...and because of a bunch of different factors Im assuming there are more objective adults then teens...to say that Adults don't have an advantage is somewhat silly IMO..."Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25. Guest host Tony Cox discusses the research and its implications with Sandra Aamodt, neuroscientist and co-author of the book Welcome to Your Child's Brain." Maturity goes a long way, even in discussing basketball IMO


(thats not the quote I was disagreeing with lol...whoops)

[NuggetsFan]

I agree with the last part. And I also agree you can youtube almost and star. But to understand a players greatness you must also know how great his peers were or should I say good.Sure a kid can see or read Russ and the Celtics won 11 they were good. But when you also see /know how good the teams Wilt played on,Elgin,West Lakers even the team Oscar was on that take Russ and the Celtics into greatness. For them to be able to win 11 even that St Louis team with Pettie was a very good team.

I'm not even saying kids will do that, or everybody who speaks on old basketball does this. Just saying it's out there. My dad liked Kareem. Listening to him talk about Kareem? I could learn that shit anywhere. Everybody couldn't be that informed back than. I'm sure there's tons of people who got to watch hours apon hours of games, alot of those who do go on to tell about it so we can know what they know.

It's only on ISH you hear this too. In real life older people seem to be mindblown by what you do nowadays. Can you imagine a 70 year the first time he logged onto youtube and got to watch on the classic footage? Read newspaper archives from Philly that he wasn't able to read when he was growing up because he lived in Minny or something.

[NuggetsFan]

I dont agree, the average NBA fan no matter the knowledge they have of the previous stars will always have time Bias...it takes a RARE type of KID to be able to get past that...Thats why an adult perspective will ALWAYS be a little more respectable when it comes to things like this IMO....For example, you're the same age I am...Idk about you, but I can't take MOST 14 or 15 year olds seriously.. While you can say adults have a time bias as well..but just like the RARE breed of kids, there are adults who can look at everything objectively as well...and because of a bunch of different factors Im assuming there are more objective adults then teens...to say that Adults don't have an advantage is somewhat silly IMO..."Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25. Guest host Tony Cox discusses the research and its implications with Sandra Aamodt, neuroscientist and co-author of the book Welcome to Your Child's Brain." Maturity goes a long way, even in discussing basketball IMO

It's sports. Age\gender\race etc. no matter what there's always going to be some sort of bias for everybody. For every crazy 15 year old LeBron fanbody there's some old ass Celtics fan who think's Rondo is the best ever. Have you listened to announcers? Have you seen sports shows? Those are kid's those are grown men. You have Yankee fans stabbing RedSox fans. Bias, stupidity, craziness in sports is never just one age group.

I'm not talking about ISH and basketball forums only here, I'm talking about in general.

[Niquesports]

I don't care if your 75, you didn't see THAT many games.

30 years ago the finals weren't even televised live.

Basketball in 50's & 60's was RARELY televised.

Anybody can go on youtube and have more acess to old NBA footage than anybody living in the 50's, who if lucky MAYBE saw a game or 2 every season.
OK lets take Kareem. He was a beast almost up til he was 40. Won MVP's titles everything. I went to the 2 games in Baltimore when the Bucks beat my Bullets. i remember seeing one game on TV. All I knew was I been a Oscar fan every since. People say Shaq was better than Kareem I say get outta here. Really it isnt even close to me.Im not being bias kareem was just that good.When I hear people go oh oh and aw aw about LBj 6'8 running the PG . I saw that before the biggest PG of his era O being unstopable . So sorry as posted earlier what you young guys thin is special. To us is just a very good basketball player

[Niquesports]

It might have to deal with the fact that his numbers are inflated duo to pace and he really didn't accomplishes much in terms of team success(Only one 50 win team when he was in Cincy).

Oscar is an all-time great, but it is ridiculous to think he isn't a top ten player.


WHen I hear this pace of game sillyness I wonder what makes you think maybe he might have picked his pace up if he played today .So throw that out the window.

[jongib369]

It's sports. Age\gender\race etc. no matter what there's always going to be some sort of bias for everybody. For every crazy 15 year old LeBron fanbody there's some old ass Celtics fan who think's Rondo is the best ever. Have you listened to announcers? Have you seen sports shows? Those are kid's those are grown men. You have Yankee fans stabbing RedSox fans. Bias, stupidity, craziness in sports is never just one age group.

I'm not talking about ISH and basketball forums only here, I'm talking about in general.
Obviously but all Im saying is that an older mature person is MOST likely to have an advantage being objective...Tards grow up to be tards...but OBJECTIVE fans with some intelligence will only get smarter as they age. For example idk if we would agree on everything but you seem like a respectable poster...I'd take your opinion FAR more seriously then I would someone like KOBE143

[NuggetsFan]

I can respect your opinions Nuggets fan. I guess that my point today we know the PG for the Kings :facepalm No disrespect to Tyree but Gail was just as good if not better. Im just saying for the young guys to love and learn the game. But FYI Gail played in the backcourt with West . Played at UCLA on one of the first of the great Wooden teams . But I respect you wish more young guys were like you

I can dig it. Experience obviously will always be a factor. A 40 year old that surfs the internet and researches\watched basketball like a 16 year old kid but has been doing it for longer, clearly will probably know more. Been doing it for longer. It's just what's available now is insane.

I'm only 21 year old but I'm jealous of all the little kids growing up. The 9 year old kids who love\will go on to love basketball at a hardcore level are laughing right now.

[Poetry]

I'm sure there's tons of people who got to watch hours apon hours of games, alot of those who do go on to tell about it so we can know what they know.

There is difference between simply hearing something second hand and rushing though clips of footage and actually having absorbed it on your own over time and had it fed to you piecemeal. The way you understand something right now, is completely different than the way you'll understand something in two years.

Watching something does not equal understanding it.

For instance, you can watch hundreds of hours of Kobe footage and not notice that Kobe changed the follow through on his shot midway through his career.

[game3524]

OK lets take Kareem. He was a beast almost up til he was 40. Won MVP's titles everything. I went to the 2 games in Baltimore when the Bucks beat my Bullets. i remember seeing one game on TV. All I knew was I been a Oscar fan every since. People say Shaq was better than Kareem I say get outta here. Really it isnt even close to me.Im not being bias kareem was just that good.When I hear people go oh oh and aw aw about LBj 6'8 running the PG . I saw that before the biggest PG of his era O being unstopable . So sorry as posted earlier what you young guys thin is special. To us is just a very good basketball player

Shaq at his peak may have been the best player to ever play the game. Kareem is higher on the GOAT list due to his longevity and resume, but thinking Shaq was better then Kareem isn't nonsense.

People tend to forget that players whom are usually on the GOAT lists are relatively close together and that rankings usually come done to resumes.

[INDI]

I dont agree, the average NBA fan no matter the knowledge they have of the previous stars will always have time Bias...it takes a RARE type of KID to be able to get past that...Thats why an adult perspective will ALWAYS be a little more respectable when it comes to things like this IMO....For example, you're the same age I am...Idk about you, but I can't take MOST 14 or 15 year olds seriously.. While you can say adults have a time bias as well..but just like the RARE breed of kids, there are adults who can look at everything objectively as well...and because of a bunch of different factors Im assuming there are more objective adults then teens...to say that Adults don't have an advantage is somewhat silly IMO..."Under most laws, young people are recognized as adults at age 18. But emerging science about brain development suggests that most people don't reach full maturity until the age 25. Guest host Tony Cox discusses the research and its implications with Sandra Aamodt, neuroscientist and co-author of the book Welcome to Your Child's Brain." Maturity goes a long way, even in discussing basketball IMO


(thats not the quote I was disagreeing with lol...whoops)

I say all the time that if I could take the mind that I have now and place it back in my 14 year old body, I would dominate high school. There is something about the maturity of people that are older than 25 that's amazing ( sometimes they don't get it til 30 though). It's like your able to see life from a different perspective

[NuggetsFan]

There is difference between simply hearing something second hand and rushing though clips of footage and actually having absorbed it on your own over time and had it fed to you piecemeal. The way you understand something right now, is completely different than the way you'll understand something in two years.

Watching something does not equal understanding it.

For instance, you can watch hundreds of hours of Kobe footage and not notice that Kobe changed the follow through on his shot midway through his career.

I really don't get what your point is. How many games of Oscar did you personally watch? Newspaper, radio etc. are irrelevant because you can find that stuff online today and absorb it like you did.

My point is alot of older people, like somebody in there 30's would learn about Oscar and Wilt the same way I would when I'm 21.

[game3524]

WHen I hear this pace of game sillyness I wonder what makes you think maybe he might have picked his pace up if he played today .So throw that out the window.

If he played today his numbers wouldn't be as impressive.

The pace and era he played in had a huge affect on his career numbers...making them look better then his actually impact on the court.

This doesn't mean Oscar doesn't have a case to be top ten, but it isn't nonsense when people leave him out.

[game3524]

I really don't get what your point is. How many games of Oscar did you personally watch? Newspaper, radio etc. are irrelevant because you can find that stuff online today and absorb it like you did.

My point is alot of older people, like somebody in there 30's would learn about Oscar and Wilt the same way I would when I'm 21.

Exactly.

[Niquesports]

I can dig it. Experience obviously will always be a factor. A 40 year old that surfs the internet and researches\watched basketball like a 16 year old kid but has been doing it for longer, clearly will probably know more. Been doing it for longer. It's just what's available now is insane.

I'm only 21 year old but I'm jealous of all the little kids growing up. The 9 year old kids who love\will go on to love basketball at a hardcore level are laughing right now.


I might be one of the few old heads that think that the '12 team could give the Orginal Dream team a good game. They talk about how big Karl Malone was but hell LBJ is the same size. LBJ would have trouble defending karl . However LBJ would just blow past Karl.Sure David Rob woukd dominate Mello but could you imagine D Rob playing D outside the 3pt line. KD would just shoot over Barkly.I mean if your objective it could be a good game. Remember Bird was done and Magic was half himself.Jordan was still in his prime but his mini me Kobe would still have game.So I am an Objective Old head

[Niquesports]

If he played today his numbers wouldn't be as impressive.

The pace and era he played in had a huge affect on his career numbers...making them look better then his actually impact on the court.

This doesn't mean Oscar doesn't have a case to be top ten, but it isn't nonsense when people leave him out.
It's nonsense when they put Kobe in

[game3524]

It's nonsense when they put Kobe in

How?

Kobe's resume is good enough to be top 7-10.

[Niquesports]

How?

Kobe's resume is good enough to be top 7-10.
Put his first 3 years up aganist any other All TIme Great he wont be top 50. Go on look at his first 3 years against any other top 15 player you pick the player

[swi7ch]

NONE
Then he doesn't belong in the top 10. ALL top 10 players have either MULTIPLE title and/or MVPs. Read the previous sentence again.

[Poetry]

I really don't get what your point is. How many games of Oscar did you personally watch? Newspaper, radio etc. are irrelevant because you can find that stuff online today and absorb it like you did.

My point is alot of older people, like somebody in there 30's would learn about Oscar and Wilt the same way I would when I'm 21.

I can't comment on anything prior to 1987 with real certainty. I know my limitations.

When someone drops knowledge about the Big O or Chamberlain, i shut my mouth and listen. Ocassionally, i make a remark about a player's skill set, in the same manner as an amateur scout would. But i don't feel i have a firm enough grasp on the game prior to 1987, despite having studied the NBA for a few decades.

(But my comments are informed by over 20 years of NBA knowledge, so i don't feel they're a complete waste).

A 21-year-old may be able to watch as much old footage as a 30+ year-old (and even then it's doubtful), but his understanding of what he's watching is different.

The 21 year old might say, here's what i think about Wilt, i've been watching and studying basketball for 5-10-15 years, and i'm using my background to draw a conclusion.

But a 30 year old can say, here's what i think about Wilt, i've been watching and studying basketball for 15-20-25 years, and i'm using my background to draw a conclusion.

A 50 year old can say, here's what i think about Wilt, i've been watching and studying basketball for 35-40-45 years, and i'm using my background to draw a conclusion.

There's clearly a difference in the level of understanding.

Just because I study the NBA doesn't mean I understand it the way Hubie Brown does. There's a world of difference between my understanding and that of basketball scholar or an NBA player or Coach.

There's a reason you don't see many 20-year-old NBA scouts (if any).

[atljonesbro]

What I hate is people who overrate these old players and put them on a pedestal. I know EVERYONE will deny it but they do it thinking it makes them sound smarter. I'm dead a$$ serious in my reasoning. People act like they were just magically better and no one can touch them, but it's 100% nostalgia and thinking you're making yourself sound smarter. Why can't people just be reasonable about how they rank players and not overrated the FU.CK out of older players. It's frustrating that all these 30-40 year old men come on here with this elitist view thinking they are better people than everyone else overrating their childhood heroes when they just sound stupid.

[Poetry]

People act like they were just magically better and no one can touch them, but it's 100% nostalgia and thinking you're making yourself sound smarter.

With some players the impressive and undeniable skill set is just apparent.

If you were to be shown footage of Chamberlain, in a world where no one knew who he was, you would be able to infer certain conclusions about how talented he was.

You use whatever background you have in the sport, and you ask yourself, have i ever seen anyone like this before, who can i compare him to, who moves like him, who has those moves, how easily do things come for him, how does he compare to so and so, for a man of his size...when pitted against a man of equal talent or impact (Russell) how does he perform...

You use your knowledge of different eras to project how those skills translate.

How would he benefit from modern training, innovations in the game, medicine, health regiments, team policy?

The more you know about the game, the longer you've studied basketball, the more informed your conclusion will be.

[JMT]

I don't care if your 75, you didn't see THAT many games.

30 years ago the finals weren't even televised live.

Basketball in 50's & 60's was RARELY televised.

Anybody can go on youtube and have more acess to old NBA footage than anybody living in the 50's, who if lucky MAYBE saw a game or 2 every season.


Just keep in mind that in the 50's, 60's etc you could afford to go to games. I saw 50 live games annually from 1965-1975, more than I did on TV, and you could see them in many cases from 5 rows from the court. It wasn't that tough to be in situations where you could stand next to players, speak with them, get a real sense of their size, strength.

One component that younger posters tend to leave out of this equation is frame of reference. Yes, anyone can watch youtube clips of players from any era. The quality of video is such that many automatically dismiss older players because it doesn't look like what they're accustomed to seeing. Also, unless you lived through an era, there's no way you can fully understand the comparative difference between people athletically, the training available, the true level of the competition, etc.

Younger posters coming in and dismissing the more experienced view are guilty of the same attitude they claim pisses them off about older posters.

[DaHeezy]

I agree with you point, but why do you always have to make it a point to rub it into people's faces that you're older than them and constantly jump to conclusions that because somebody doesn't feel the same way about old-timer they are in highschool?

Basketball is subjective, people are allowed to have opinions. I don't see Oscar in the top ten. Does that make me a kid? I'm 36.

You're not the autority of all players old. Just because somebody somebody didn't live during those eras doesn't mean they don't know players like "Jo Jo White". That's why there's a subject called history. You can learn about the past and draw your own conclusion

[Niquesports]

What I hate is people who overrate these old players and put them on a pedestal. I know EVERYONE will deny it but they do it thinking it makes them sound smarter. I'm dead a$$ serious in my reasoning. People act like they were just magically better and no one can touch them, but it's 100% nostalgia and thinking you're making yourself sound smarter. Why can't people just be reasonable about how they rank players and not overrated the FU.CK out of older players. It's frustrating that all these 30-40 year old men come on here with this elitist view thinking they are better people than everyone else overrating their childhood heroes when they just sound stupid.

You don't think it doesn't sound stupid when these 14-18 year old s come on here and say Kobe is the GOAT.Which sounds the worst?I just think your 15 never seen or even heard of most of the guys that played before 1999.

[tpols]

I hate player rankings and player comparisons. There were way too many great players during the course of basketball history to be tamped into top 5 or 10 or 20 or even 100 lists, and player comparisons, especially of players from different eras, are nothing more than conjecture-ridden baloney. I could be arsed to make a list of my favorite players, but making the list of players I subjectively think were the best of all time serves absolutely no purpose whatsoever and is a monumental waste of time. Oh and arguing over which players is "better" is akin to arguing over whose dad would beat up whose.
I agree with this.. way, way, way too much credit is given to players based on pure circumstance. You put Tmac on the spurs and he mightve went from career loser to having a few FMVPs.. you take Duncan and place him in Toronto and he ends up being the next Elton Brand..

There are only a few players in the history of the game that you could put in a terrible situation and they would rise above it.. and those are Russel, Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Fringe guys like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt and Lebron are right below, and then you have the rest which couldve ended up anywhere on the spectrum depending on where they were cast and mentored.

The players like Shaq wilt and bron would always dominate because they just have absurd physical advantages over everyone else.. and then Jordan Magic Bird and Russel always would because they have the competitive spirit, sheer willpower, and smarts to lift their entire teams up and crush the hopes of their opponents.

Then the rest of the top 50-75 players could literally be sorted in any order based on pure chance determining how their talent develops.

[Niquesports]

Shaq at his peak may have been the best player to ever play the game. Kareem is higher on the GOAT list due to his longevity and resume, but thinking Shaq was better then Kareem isn't nonsense.

People tend to forget that players whom are usually on the GOAT lists are relatively close together and that rankings usually come done to resumes.


Its so hard to rank players. Shaq was a bully Kareem was grace.Shaq early on just moved everyone away. Kareem had the Greatest most unstopable shot ever the Sky Hook.Kareem came into the league and won a title. Shaq came into the league and later lead a team to a title. I saw both the difference you couldn't hack a Kareem in the 4th of a tight game. He would make his free throws.That is the difference

[atljonesbro]

You don't think it doesn't sound stupid when these 14-18 year old s come on here and say Kobe is the GOAT.Which sounds the worst?I just think your 15 never seen or even heard of most of the guys that played before 1999.
I just think you're 42 and can't let go of your childhood heroes. If you can't recognize the talent guys like Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, ect. have vs all of your BELOVED players from "the greatest era ever" with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to back it up at that then you're delusional and your age has taken a toll on your mind. Honestly if you had it your way your top 10 would be set in stone forever with ALL players who played in your era. NO ONE would touch them. You know why? You're extremely irrational, incredibly bias, not open minded in the slightest. And what do you back that up on? Oh thats right your age lmao. At my age im at right now I have INFINITELY more knowledge on the game then you could ever imagine having when you were due to modern technology and other things.

Also you never saw me overrate anyone but you just assume I will? Typical arrogant older person assuming they are always right. Lets be real, the only reason you won't give credit where credit is due is because you just can't stand the fact that someone may be a better overall player than your beloved heroes. You just can't let that happen, not in your mind.

[kumquat]

Weak era. I'm sorry, but just no.

[DaHeezy]

Weak era. I'm sorry, but just no.

According to OP, you must be 15

[Niquesports]

I agree with this.. way, way, way too much credit is given to players based on pure circumstance. You put Tmac on the spurs and he mightve went from career loser to having a few FMVPs.. you take Duncan and place him in Toronto and he ends up being the next Elton Brand..

There are only a few players in the history of the game that you could put in a terrible situation and they would rise above it.. and those are Russel, Jordan, Magic, and Bird. Fringe guys like Shaq, Kareem, Wilt and Lebron are right below, and then you have the rest which couldve ended up anywhere on the spectrum depending on where they were cast and mentored.

The players like Shaq wilt and bron would always dominate because they just have absurd physical advantages over everyone else.. and then Jordan Magic Bird and Russel always would because they have the competitive spirit, sheer willpower, and smarts to lift their entire teams up and crush the hopes of their opponents.

Then the rest of the top 50-75 players could literally be sorted in any order based on pure chance determining how their talent develops.


I love a good objective basketball debate. But really rankings are silly. What if the HOF did rankings would that mean Bob Cousy would get kicked out because Kobe has emerged. Would they kick out George Mikin because Shaq Retired? Ok Sam Jones you gotta go because we need room for Duncan. Instead of rankings the debate should be do these players deserve to be mentioned with the greats, and on what tier should they be on. Instead of saying LBJ is better than Elgin say LBJ has worked his way up to the 2nd level and one more MVP or Title he will be first level.TO me this will work better and we can still debate.

[Niquesports]

I just think you're 42 and can't let go of your childhood heroes. If you can't recognize the talent guys like Kobe, LeBron, Duncan, Garnett, ect. have vs all of your BELOVED players from "the greatest era ever" with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to back it up at that then you're delusional and your age has taken a toll on your mind. Honestly if you had it your way your top 10 would be set in stone forever with ALL players who played in your era. NO ONE would touch them. You know why? You're extremely irrational, incredibly bias, not open minded in the slightest. And what do you back that up on? Oh thats right your age lmao. At my age im at right now I have INFINITELY more knowledge on the game then you could ever imagine having when you were due to modern technology and other things.

Also you never saw me overrate anyone but you just assume I will? Typical arrogant older person assuming they are always right. Lets be real, the only reason you won't give credit where credit is due is because you just can't stand the fact that someone may be a better overall player than your beloved heroes. You just can't let that happen, not in your mind.


Whats laughable is what your acussing me of is what your doing. Your 14 and have never seen many of the greats . Yet due to some stats you wanna say New era guy is better than old era guy. Your funny just flip it and your doing what you say Im doing. The player whose jersey you were to school you want him to be the GOAT because you just paid $200 on his tennis shoes. So he must be top 5. I have his tennis shoes and his jersey.Typical youngster.

[JellyBean]

Basketball is a game for all ages.I love the history of the game and respect it.I feel the Golden Era of the game was from 80-95.Many younger poster get on the board and have know idea how Great players like Elgin Baylor,Bob Petie,Elvin Hayes,Nate Archabld ect.... Were. When I hear people having Oscar outside a top 10. I just can't call you a basketball fan.Kobe,LBJ are special players , But so was Elgin,Walt Frazier,Moses Malone,George Gervin. Just ask . Just say hey how good was so and so . Don't assume PP was better than any of the greats because I have seen them both and he isnt . You have only seen PP and read stats of the Older Greats.


:applause: Very well articulated points.

[wakencdukest]

What I hate is people who overrate these old players and put them on a pedestal. I know EVERYONE will deny it but they do it thinking it makes them sound smarter. I'm dead a$$ serious in my reasoning. People act like they were just magically better and no one can touch them, but it's 100% nostalgia and thinking you're making yourself sound smarter. Why can't people just be reasonable about how they rank players and not overrated the FU.CK out of older players. It's frustrating that all these 30-40 year old men come on here with this elitist view thinking they are better people than everyone else overrating their childhood heroes when they just sound stupid.


This is the type of sh*t that pisses adults off. 17 year old's who think they know something. I'm not talking about all the young posters here, just the ignorant ones like you. You think that the older guys in this forum only watched basketball in the old days? You think you know something about today's game or players that I don't? I guarantee you don't. I'm a basketball junkie, and most likely all the 30-40 year old's that post here are too. I've been following the NBA since the late 70's, college ball since 1978. I watch college and pro ball religiously. I follow as much high school ball as I can. I follow college recruiting every year. I know every player you know and have seen them play in college or high school extensively. I'm as big of a fan now as I was back in the 80's. It stands to reason that I know today's game as well or better than you and I know yesterdays game infinitely better, so it's not just nostalgia. I think there's great players today, but there are certain players from the past that I consider greater. I'm not totally biased, I think Duncan is the best power forward of all time, I think Kobe is the 2nd greatest 2-guard of all time, I think that LeBron could end up being the best small forward of all time, And I think that Magic was the best point guard ever by a wide margin. I'm willing to listen to young guys who have intelligent opinions on basketball, but you seem pretty f*ckin ignorant. At least make a valid argument if you're going to post something

[JMT]

I agree with you point, but why do you always have to make it a point to rub it into people's faces that you're older than them and constantly jump to conclusions that because somebody doesn't feel the same way about old-timer they are in highschool?

Basketball is subjective, people are allowed to have opinions. I don't see Oscar in the top ten. Does that make me a kid? I'm 36.

You're not the autority of all players old. Just because somebody somebody didn't live during those eras doesn't mean they don't know players like "Jo Jo White". That's why there's a subject called history. You can learn about the past and draw your own conclusion

I hope this isn't in reference to me. :confusedshrug:

[Niquesports]

This is the type of sh*t that pisses adults off. 17 year old's who think they know something. I'm not talking about all the young posters here, just the ignorant ones like you. You think that the older guys in this forum only watched basketball in the old days? You think you know something about today's game or players that I don't? I guarantee you don't. I'm a basketball junkie, and most likely all the 30-40 year old's that post here are too. I've been following the NBA since the late 70's, college ball since 1978. I watch college and pro ball religiously. I follow as much high school ball as I can. I follow college recruiting every year. I know every player you know and have seen them play in college or high school extensively. I'm as big of a fan now as I was back in the 80's. It stands to reason that I know today's game as well or better than you and I know yesterdays game infinitely better, so it's not just nostalgia. I think there's great players today, but there are certain players from the past that I consider greater. I'm not totally biased, I think Duncan is the best power forward of all time, I think Kobe is the 2nd greatest 2-guard of all time, I think that LeBron could end up being the best small forward of all time, And I think that Magic was the best point guard ever by a wide margin. I'm willing to listen to young guys who have intelligent opinions on basketball, but you seem pretty f*ckin ignorant. At least make a valid argument if you're going to post something
:cheers:
Well Put

[DaHeezy]

I hope this isn't in reference to me. :confusedshrug:
No towards the OP. The whole "you're in highschool if you don't agree with my point" thing gets me

[atljonesbro]

If any of you geezers making baseless assumptions can tell why why your childhood era you can't let go of is the best then I'll stop, but there hasn't been a single fact yet. I haven't once said my era is the best because I have no factually evidence. All you old folks think you're always right because you say so lmao. Look, just accept the fact you're bias, irrational, closed minded and I'll be gone.

[LakersReign]

This is the type of sh*t that pisses adults off. 17 year old's who think they know something. I'm not talking about all the young posters here, just the ignorant ones like you. You think that the older guys in this forum only watched basketball in the old days? You think you know something about today's game or players that I don't? I guarantee you don't. I'm a basketball junkie, and most likely all the 30-40 year old's that post here are too. I've been following the NBA since the late 70's, college ball since 1978. I watch college and pro ball religiously. I follow as much high school ball as I can. I follow college recruiting every year. I know every player you know and have seen them play in college or high school extensively. I'm as big of a fan now as I was back in the 80's. It stands to reason that I know today's game as well or better than you and I know yesterdays game infinitely better, so it's not just nostalgia. I think there's great players today, but there are certain players from the past that I consider greater. I'm not totally biased, I think Duncan is the best power forward of all time, I think Kobe is the 2nd greatest 2-guard of all time, I think that LeBron could end up being the best small forward of all time, And I think that Magic was the best point guard ever by a wide margin. I'm willing to listen to young guys who have intelligent opinions on basketball, but you seem pretty f*ckin ignorant. At least make a valid argument if you're going to post something

Agreed, well said:applause:

[Niquesports]

No towards the OP. The whole "you're in highschool if you don't agree with my point" thing gets me


It wasn't directed at you or any other of the young guys that posted , Just the one guy that thiks I stoped looking at basketball in1980

[turnaroundJ]

I'm sorry but all people from different times will always claim theirs was the best. Golden age this, glory days that.

Bvllsht.

The NBA has always been the best league with the best players in any era. Everything should be looked at relative to their time. Oldtimer nostalgia and the dismissal of previous greats are both fvckin insults to every player that has ever played.

[Niquesports]

If any of you geezers making baseless assumptions can tell why why your childhood era you can't let go of is the best then I'll stop, but there hasn't been a single fact yet. I haven't once said my era is the best because I have no factually evidence. All you old folks think you're always right because you say so lmao. Look, just accept the fact you're bias, irrational, closed minded and I'll be gone.


Imirrational,closed minded and bias . Now will you be gone so we can have an intellectual convo young and older. See ya

[Niquesports]

I'm sorry but all people from different times will always claim theirs was the best. Golden age this, glory days that.

Bvllsht.

The NBA has always been the best league with the best players in any era. Everything should be looked at relative to their time. Oldtimer nostalgia and the dismissal of previous greats are both fvckin insults to every player that has ever played.

My whole purpose of this thread was too often I see young guys just dismiss players froma different era. For instance Lebron is just a new bigger more athletic Elgin Baylor. But in the 1960 people were in awe of Elgin.Kobe is being compared to MJ yet it took jim 4 years to even be on a revelent status no other great took that long. I think things should be like the HOF . Yes LBJ has earned the right to be spoken of in the same manner with the likes of the other greats. Not LBJ is better than Dr J.. Just a new era player has earned the right to be talked with the greats. Not Oscar the Magic before Magic is no long a top 15 player.

[game3524]

Put his first 3 years up aganist any other All TIme Great he wont be top 50. Go on look at his first 3 years against any other top 15 player you pick the player

That is a stupid reason to say Kobe isn't a top 10 player.:oldlol:

You don't judge players by what they do in their first 3 years, but what they did their entire careers.

Kobe's longevity, resume, and peak is what makes him a top ten player.

5x NBA Champion
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA MVP
2x Scoring titles
14x NBA All-Star
4x All-Star MVP
13X All-NBA team member
12X All-defensive team member

And at 34, he still has enough in the tank to add a championship or two to that resume.

There are cases against Kobe not being a top ten, but to say it is due to his first three years is nonsense.

[Niquesports]

That is a stupid reason to say Kobe isn't a top 10 player.:oldlol:

You don't judge players by what they do in their first 3 years, but what they did their entire careers.

Kobe's longevity, resume, and peak is what makes him a top ten player.

5x NBA Champion
2x Finals MVP
1x NBA MVP
2x Scoring titles
14x NBA All-Star
4x All-Star MVP
13X All-NBA team member
12X All-defensive team member

And at 34, he still has enough in the tank to add a championship or two to that resume.

There are cases against Kobe not being a top ten, but to say it is due to his first three years is nonsense.
It is nonsense but every other player in the convo of being a possible top 10. Started off from start being a star or promising star except for Kobe.It has to make you say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Niquesports]

It is nonsense but every other player in the convo of being a possible top 10. Started off from start being a star or promising star except for Kobe.It has to make you say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Im really joking but it was interesting when I noticed it.

[game3524]

It is nonsense but every other player in the convo of being a possible top 10. Started off from start being a star or promising star except for Kobe.It has to make you say hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Are you serious?

Every player in the top ten list went to college for at least 2 years. Kobe came into the league at 18, straight out of high school. So it is no shock that it took him a couple of years to develop compared to the majority of players in the top ten list since they were more NBA ready.

[Niquesports]

Are you serious?

Every player on the top ten list went to college for at least 2 years. Kobe came into the league at 18, straight out of high school. So it is no shock that it took him a couple of years to develop compared to the majority of players on the top ten list since they were more NBA ready.
Not Lebron and Moses

[game3524]

Not Lebron and Moses

Moses and Lebron were more physically developed by the time they were 18-19, Kobe simply wasn't and it took him a couple years.

Moses and Bron are the exceptions to the rules when it comes to HC players coming straight to the NBA, not they standard.

[magictricked]

Are you serious?

Every player in the top ten list went to college for at least 2 years. Kobe came into the league at 18, straight out of high school. So it is no shock that it took him a couple of years to develop compared to the majority of players in the top ten list since they were more NBA ready.Are you a young or old guy? That's a really good point and I want to credit the proper age group :lol

As to the topic both young and old can learn from each other. You only have to listen and more importantly be willing to listen

[Niquesports]

Moses and Lebron were more physically developed by the time they were 18-19, Kobe simply wasn't and it took him a couple years.

Moses and Bron are the exceptions to the rules when it comes to HC players coming straight to the NBA, not they standard.


I was joking it was just interesting when I saw it.It means very little

[IGOTGAME]

I think I'm officially an older plaster. I'm 26. My big issue with a lot of the younger doods is they lack understanding of the game. Anyone who is learning substantive ball knowledge from NBA telecasts doesn't understand ball. But I hear many people in game threads shocked by guys like van Bundy and brown talking on air. Another thing I can't stand is misuse of stats. I feel like there should be a pre req before being able to use advanced stats. If you don't understand how the number is computed than don't use it because you not understand it or what it means. Lastly, play ball in high school, parks, high scvhool , college...that is good way to learn the game on some level. Get coached.... there are some great coaches on the college and even high scvhool level.

If you don't understand why things are happening on the court than its difficult to respect your conclusions IMO.

[DaHeezy]

It wasn't directed at you or any other of the young guys that posted , Just the one guy that thiks I stoped looking at basketball in1980

I'm just saying you do that in general. You constantly belittle people's opinions who don't agree with yours by saying "they are little kids". Your OP says that people who don't consider Oscar in their top 10 you don't consider real basketball fans. Kinda condescending don't you think? I see you use this in countless threads. We get it, you're old, but there's no need to use it as leverage in arguments.
I rspect your knowledge, however people have rights to judge players based on opinion. Youve made comments on Mikan, I highly doubt you lived in that era to witness him. Does that automatically discredit you? No. Don't discriminate due to age.

[Niquesports]

I'm just saying you do that in general. You constantly belittle people's opinions who don't agree with yours by saying "they are little kids". Your OP says that people who don't consider Oscar in their top 10 you don't consider real basketball fans. Kinda condescending don't you think? I see you use this in countless threads. We get it, you're old, but there's no need to use it as leverage in arguments.
I rspect your knowledge, however people have rights to judge players based on opinion. Youve made comments on Mikan, I highly doubt you lived in that era to witness him. Does that automatically discredit you? No. Don't discriminate due to age.

I respect Milkin from all I have read. Would I ever say Kareem was better no. Would I say Shaq was better no.My only point is we can agree to disagee. But when you don't mention Oscar,Elgin,Pettie,Mikan,Cousy these guys . Your forgetting the history of the game. In baseball Babe Ruth still get talked about.even though he is now 3rd.But most baseball fans respect the history of the game more than basketball fans imo

[Overdrive]

I respect Milkin from all I have read. Would I ever say Kareem was better no. Would I say Shaq was better no.My only point is we can agree to disagee. But when you don't mention Oscar,Elgin,Pettie,Mikan,Cousy these guys . Your forgetting the history of the game. In baseball Babe Ruth still get talked about.even though he is now 3rd.But most baseball fans respect the history of the game more than basketball fans imo

There's no disrespect. The biggest problem is how to handle those stats. Obviously in today's league nobody could score 50ppg or average a triple double. Lebron is above anybody else in the NBA, but he can't average a triple double. Oscar was one of the stars back then. Logic tells me that if the best player these day can't average a triple double the 3rd to 5th best player back then couldn't these days either.

You could argue that Oscar was better than Lebron, but the strength of the individual isn't as important as the strength of the individual player compared to the next best player in his era.

Meaning a game still lasts 48 minutes, so the amount of time a player can get rebounds, points and assists hasn't changed. James is better relative to his pears than Oscar was, he should have more oppurtinities by his skill/athleticism advantage compared to his peers.
The only thing that makes any sense is that Oscar had more opportunities, meaning faster pace, more shots, more assists more rebounds for each team.

This doesn't mean that Oscar's feat was unimpressive or on the level of Joe Johnson, because nobody else could do this back then. He'd still be great these days, but you shouldn't mock people for taking Lebron over Oscar.

[Niquesports]

There's no disrespect. The biggest problem is how to handle those stats. Obviously in today's league nobody could score 50ppg or average a triple double. Lebron is above anybody else in the NBA, but he can't average a triple double. Oscar was one of the stars back then. Logic tells me that if the best player these day can't average a triple double the 3rd to 5th best player back then couldn't these days either.

You could argue that Oscar was better than Lebron, but the strength of the individual isn't as important as the strength of the individual player compared to the next best player in his era.

Meaning a game still lasts 48 minutes, so the amount of time a player can get rebounds, points and assists hasn't changed. James is better relative to his pears than Oscar was, he should have more oppurtinities by his skill/athleticism advantage compared to his peers.
The only thing that makes any sense is that Oscar had more opportunities, meaning faster pace, more shots, more assists more rebounds for each team.

This doesn't mean that Oscar's feat was unimpressive or on the level of Joe Johnson, because nobody else could do this back then. He'd still be great these days, but you shouldn't mock people for taking Lebron over Oscar.

If we had this discussion in Feb. Some would call Lebron the 3-5 best player behind Kobe KD his late run elevated him. Many thengo read were calling Oscar the most complete player of his time.But your right I just think instead of saying LBJ has past these past greats . Just say he has joined them as one of the greats

[upside24]

What's up with all these angry old guys on ISH?
This.

[ace23]

What I don't get is why older basketball fans believe they are so much smarter than younger one's. Unless your really old, you never saw Wilt and co play. Back than it wasn't even televised anyways. Correct me if I'm wrong only the 4th quarter of Wilt's 100 game was on the radio? right?. In today's day and age it's crazy. I'm 21 and even going back like 7 years ago the difference is insane, basketball fans that are 13-14 are insanely spoiled. If a 15 year kid wanted too, he could find TONS of footage on Magic and Bird. Look at archives of old newspapers, probably find old radio airings. You can find out how successful a player today is at running the P&R down to an exact %. You literally can watch 82 games of your favorite team, among sooo many others. How many live games would the average basketball fan watch in 1976?

Age doesn't really matter for the most part. It depends on how much a person is willing to research. A 16 year old kid can know just as much about Oscar Robertson as a 30 year old man would. Unless your way up there in age and you got to see these guy's play live, being a young fan doesn't really hold any disadvantage :confusedshrug:
This is one of the best posts I've seen on this site. :applause:

[DKLaker]

Basketball is a game for all ages.I love the history of the game and respect it.I feel the Golden Era of the game was from 80-95.Many younger poster get on the board and have know idea how Great players like Elgin Baylor,Bob Petie,Elvin Hayes,Nate Archabld ect.... Were. When I hear people having Oscar outside a top 10. I just can't call you a basketball fan.Kobe,LBJ are special players , But so was Elgin,Walt Frazier,Moses Malone,George Gervin. Just ask . Just say hey how good was so and so . Don't assume PP was better than any of the greats because I have seen them both and he isnt . You have only seen PP and read stats of the Older Greats.

:applause: :cheers: :applause:

These kids just don't know and won't learn....we waste our energy arguing with them.

[NUPE_1911]

If we had this discussion in Feb. Some would call Lebron the 3-5 best player behind Kobe KD his late run elevated him. Many thengo read were calling Oscar the most complete player of his time.But your right I just think instead of saying LBJ has past these past greats . Just say he has joined them as one of the greats

KD and Kobe had not been the best two players in the league at any time in the last two to 5 years.

The best two players in the NBA presently play for the Heat and they have been the best two players in the league for a few years now.

[atljonesbro]

This niquesports doesn't wanna have a discussion on basketball, he wants to post and have everyone in the thread agree with him. He doesn't use facts, he doesn't use logic, he just says so so it has to be true. I don't care how old you are, doesn't make you any more intelligent than anyone. You know less about basketball than a large majority of this forum. By the way, the first time I saw you post I thought you were 16 or younger just by the way you type.

[Niquesports]

This niquesports doesn't wanna have a discussion on basketball, he wants to post and have everyone in the thread agree with him. He doesn't use facts, he doesn't use logic, he just says so so it has to be true. I don't care how old you are, doesn't make you any more intelligent than anyone. You know less about basketball than a large majority of this forum. By the way, the first time I saw you post I thought you were 16 or younger just by the way you type.

By the way I thought you was 16 or young by how you were the only one that was childish. Im glad you like how I type this is basketball talk not english class.

[atljonesbro]

By the way I thought you was 16 or young by how you were the only one that was childish. Im glad you like how I type this is basketball talk not english class.
You constantly belittle people by calling them kids if they don't agree with you when you look like a kid by the way you type. Stop acting like you are a better human being than someone else because you're older than them. Very childish of you and not very mature. Isn't that what you base ALL of your arguments on? How you're not a child and you're mature? You should work on that.

Oscar Robinson is top 10 because I'm not a child like the rest of you...

Doesn't that sound stupid?

[Niquesports]

You constantly belittle people by calling them kids if they don't agree with you when you look like a kid by the way you type. Stop acting like you are a better human being than someone else because you're older than them. Very childish of you and not very mature. Isn't that what you base ALL of your arguments on? How you're not a child and you're mature? You should work on that.

Oscar Robinson is top 10 because I'm not a child like the rest of you...

Doesn't that sound stupid?

No what sounds stupid is if you don't like it why are you still here. Go to another thread. You came at me . I didn't come ask you to come on this thread. So go get some sleep you have school in the morning

[atljonesbro]

No what sounds stupid is if you don't like it why are you still here. Go to another thread. You came at me . I didn't come ask you to come on this thread. So go get some sleep you have school in the morning
There you go again. Wow you're a tough, big, mature, man. I'll play along with your logic that i'm a little 14 year old kid. Don't you think it's a bit sad that a grown man is coming on a basketball forum making fun of little kids? What kind of person are you? Jesus. If you act this way in real life people would think you're a freak and a mean old man. You're having the freak/mean old man reaction on a forum, so why should anyone take what a freak/mean old man say about anything seriously?

[Niquesports]

There you go again. Wow you're a tough, big, mature, man. I'll play along with your logic that i'm a little 14 year old kid. Don't you think it's a bit sad that a grown man is coming on a basketball forum making fun of little kids? What kind of person are you? Jesus. If you act this way in real life people would think you're a freak and a mean old man. You're having the freak/mean old man reaction on a forum, so why should anyone take what a freak/mean old man say about anything seriously?

Do you have the new Avengers Lunch Box and Book Bag set .
:roll:

[turnaroundJ]

Do you have the new Avengers Lunch Box and Book Bag set .
:roll:

You obviously have issues. If I didn't know you were "older" because you proudly proclaim it over and over, I'd instantly assume you are just 14-17 years old, 19 tops.

I'm pretty sure you're the type of guy who also thinks that music, media, games, lifestyle, manners and etc. were all better back then. Move on. How about you...grow up?

[Mr Exlax]

But keep in mind, there's a difference between watching the game and understanding it.

When you turn 30, start a conversation with a 16 year old and discuss basketball.

Unless he understands the nuisances of the game, the kind of understanding that only comes with having watched thousands of games and players, individual player ticks and affectations, you might as well be talking to your mom, because most 16 year olds don't have a firm grasp of the game.

I don't want to give away my age, but this was spot on. I think the players of this day and age are better. Not more skilled, but just better. All the players are bigger, faster and stronger except for the Center position. As I have gotten older I look at the game completely differently than I did when I was a teenager. Hell I even play it differently. I won't say the youngsters don't know what they're talking about because it's all opinion based stuff ya know.

[Nero Tulip]

Oscar is and was clearly better than Kobe,Hakeem,Duncan.

OK crazy guy.

[LBJFTW]

1. Old fans who have seen more than one era and not influenced by media and have same access to everything TODAY as young fans.

2. Young fans who have only lived long enough to see one era live influenced by media.

Who's opinion are you going to take more seriously? How is this even debatable? :lol

[DKLaker]

Do you have the new Avengers Lunch Box and Book Bag set .
:roll:

Ignore the little kid

[atljonesbro]

Ignore the little kid
Wow great argument. Nice use of logic, statistics, and assortment of facts according to basketball. And who are you calling little kid? Niquesports is the little kid.. No way he's above the age of 16 the way he types and comes across. He's a child trying to lie about his age so people take him seriously. I'll make an alt account in a few weeks with my same opinions and say im 45 just to see how people react differently. I guarantee children like you a niquesports will jump on the bandwagon because I say im 45.

Age has nothing to do with how much you know about anything. I could be 18 and you could be 50 yet I could know more about something than you. It's just all these ignorant, less educated than current young adults when they were young adults due to advances in education, closed minded old folks thinking they're hot shit. Most 35+ people on this forum are stupid and can't formulate an argument and just lean on the fact they are older than a lot of people on the forum even though that holds nothing if you can't base facts behind it. Shit I wouldn't be surprised if I were more educated than you ever were and I'm not even out of college.

[Rasheed1]

Sports is like anything else in life.. "being there" bring with it a certain perspective...

I didnt see Wilt play, but I am old enough to see the progression of basketball players from DrJ to now.... My Old heads told me about about somebody like Wilt and I respected them enough to LISTEN (alot of younger fans do not know how to listen... they think everything is a debate)...

The game is best captured by people who experienced the moments that matter...

Think about it... in 10 years when young fans are trying to diminish what Kobe or Lebron has done (because of round the clock coverage.... and the media, which will have gone to a whole new level that we cant even fathom yet) Some of the posters here will be desperately trying to keep everything in its proper perspective regarding the stars and teams of the past vs. the future.

Alot of the convo on this board is mindless and homer fan type stuff. that doesnt create a good environment for knowledgable talk about basketball..

So... Everything is subjective, but the best way to understand the past is to let older fans pass it down to younger ones

[atljonesbro]

Sports is like anything else in life.. "being there" bring with it a certain perspective...

I didnt see Wilt play, but I am old enough to see the progression of basketball players from DrJ to now.... My Old heads told me about about somebody like Wilt and I respected them enough to LISTEN (alot of younger fans do not know how to listen... they think everything is a debate)...

The game is best captured by people who experienced the moments that matter...

Think about it... in 10 years when young fans are trying to diminish what Kobe or Lebron has done (because of round the clock coverage.... and the media, which will have gone to a whole new level that we cant even fathom yet) Some of the posters here will be desperately trying to keep everything in its proper perspective regarding the stars and teams of the past vs. the future.

Alot of the convo on this board is mindless and homer fan type stuff. that doesnt create a good environment for knowledgable talk about basketball..

So... Everything is subjective, but the best way to understand the past is to let older fans pass it down to younger ones
Bullsh1t. I'm not gonna listen to some clown on inside hoops that can't articulate proper sentences and comes across like a 15 year old kid. Not to mention I'm not gonna listen to someone who will do whatever it takes to prop up their childhood players and knock down anyone else to make their heroes look better. Thats a good 60% of the "old heads" on this forum.

[Rasheed1]

Bullsh1t. I'm not gonna listen to some clown on inside hoops that can't articulate proper sentences and comes across like a 15 year old kid. Not to mention I'm not gonna listen to someone who will do whatever it takes to prop up their childhood players and knock down anyone else to make their heroes look better. Thats a good 60% of the "old heads" on this forum.


:confusedshrug: Well then you'll be the one arguing dumb positions with no history behind anything you say because you have something against old heads..

your loss pal...

[atljonesbro]

:confusedshrug: Well then you'll be the one arguing dumb positions with no history behind anything you say because you have something against old heads..

your loss pal...
So you're saying niquefan is speaking the truth? Please. He said if you don't agree with his opinion you're not a basketball fan. How the hell is the intelligent and give me insight on the past? He gave no factually evidence on why oscar should be top 10, he just said he should because "he's a basketball fan and not a little kid". I'm not listening to that. If you aren't a complete clown, can back up what you say, and not trying to down all current players to prop your guys up I'll listen.

You're basically telling me, if they are older i MUST listen to them. Even if they say Scottie Pippen is better than LeBron so they can make it look like they're era of basketball was so amazing and ours sucks and were just little kids if we disagree, they older so they HAVE TO BE RIGHT.

Am I getting this right?

[Rasheed1]

So you're saying niquefan is speaking the truth?


Did you see me say that? did you see me say anything about niquefan


Please. He said if you don't agree with his opinion you're not a basketball fan. How the hell is the intelligent and give me insight on the past? He gave no factually evidence on why oscar should be top 10, he just said he should because "he's a basketball fan and not a little kid". I'm not listening to that. If you aren't a complete clown, can back up what you say, and not trying to down all current players to prop your guys up I'll listen.

you have a problem with 1 person :oldlol: you need to get a hold of yourself and stop conflating what I said with what he said....


You're basically telling me, if they are older i MUST listen to them. Even if they say Scottie Pippen is better than LeBron so they can make it look like they're era of basketball was so amazing and ours sucks and were just little kids if we disagree, they older so they HAVE TO BE RIGHT.

:facepalm Wow....

You are way out in left field.... I didnt say you MUST listen to anybody...

What I am saying is that older fans bring alot of perspective to the game and things that happen... They can tell you what it meant 'WHEN IT HAPPENED" and the 20/20 hindsight that comes with "BEING AROUND" when somebody like Pippen or Ho Grant or somebody played. Old heads help you put events in their proper perspective. Old heads can talk about how the players have progressed from the days of julius Erving & George Gervin to today with Lebron and Kobe... That insight is very valuable, and without someone to help pass it on? You get people posting old stats thinking they are getting a good picture on what took place... You get people arguing over something that nobody has witnessed...

You can watch youtube, but that wont tell you what it was like when it actually happened... What did people think about Wilt's accomplishments while he was putting up his numbers?

It helps to have people who can give you a feel for what it was like...




Am I getting this right?

Hell no you're not getting it right :oldlol: you seem like you are in a battle with niquefan, and Im not speaking about what he said..

[Legends66NBA7]

What I hate is people who overrate these old players and put them on a pedestal.

And I also hate it when people underrate old players and treate them like they would be trash today.

Granted, everyone has a bias for the past and present, but I've certinally seen more absurd "reasoning" and scenarios about past players, their era, etc.. than the ones who are active today.


I know EVERYONE will deny it but they do it thinking it makes them sound smarter.

I've seen posters today call Kobe, LeBron, Wade, etc... or any player that reaches some great performance "gawds" and there will be 5-10 threads about them in the front page. Now granted, off course you praise a great performance, but to go over the top about and have some weird cult like worship... and just reading the arguments in comparison threads today is so damn awful at times.

Yeah, I wouldn't mind reading from most knowledgable posters when they bring the facts. Shaqattack, NugzHeat3, Kblaze, JMT, WillC etc... a lot of knowledgable posters on ISH who have little to no bias, who bring facts and context.


I'm dead a$$ serious in my reasoning. People act like they were just magically better and no one can touch them, but it's 100% nostalgia and thinking you're making yourself sound smarter.

Which players are you refering about ? Which posters are you refering about, specifically ? If you're just talking about the OP, that's not enough, and I've seen worse posts from "younger" fans.

And it's probably not just nostalgia (sometimes it is a factor, but it's not always the case), but if it can be proven in meaningful manner, then that's not making yourself sound smart.



Why can't people just be reasonable about how they rank players and not overrated the FU.CK out of older players.

And like wise, people should not underrate the **** out of older players and overrate/underrate the **** out of current players.


It's frustrating that all these 30-40 year old men come on here with this elitist view thinking they are better people than everyone else overrating their childhood heroes when they just sound stupid.

It's also frustrating that a lot of younger posters will call players "gawds", call them Top 5-10, or GOAT after winning one title as the man, and even try to spin their own agenda, just to make their current favourite player look good.



By the way atljonesbro, that wasn't directed to you, specifically. I'm just aware that there's a double standard for both the younger and older posters and pointing that what you said can be looked at both way... you brought up some interesting things in your post that I see from a lot in this forum.

[DKLaker]

Wow great argument. Nice use of logic, statistics, and assortment of facts according to basketball. And who are you calling little kid? Niquesports is the little kid.. No way he's above the age of 16 the way he types and comes across. He's a child trying to lie about his age so people take him seriously. I'll make an alt account in a few weeks with my same opinions and say im 45 just to see how people react differently. I guarantee children like you a niquesports will jump on the bandwagon because I say im 45.

Age has nothing to do with how much you know about anything. I could be 18 and you could be 50 yet I could know more about something than you. It's just all these ignorant, less educated than current young adults when they were young adults due to advances in education, closed minded old folks thinking they're hot shit. Most 35+ people on this forum are stupid and can't formulate an argument and just lean on the fact they are older than a lot of people on the forum even though that holds nothing if you can't base facts behind it. Shit I wouldn't be surprised if I were more educated than you ever were and I'm not even out of college.

No, sorry.......you are not an intelligent person and I am not only more than 3 times your age, I am far more educated than you will ever be, and far more accomplished.
I am very open minded when statements make sense, yours don't.
If you think any 18 year old kid knows more about anything that someone lived through 30-40 years ago you are truly a moron.
Stats? They don't help you when those who saw the game know that a player was playing injured that season....or his teammates were, which affected their record. Stats won't tell you the cultural effect on a black athlete playing in Boston in the 60's or 70's. Guys in the past retired due to injuries that today would only keep them out for 2 months or less due to advancements in medicine........or maybe they would play on and be less effective.
A kid is never going to fully grasp stuff like that. Even the difference in travel and hotels etc. What a kid really needs to do when discussing the past is listen to older people and learn......it may help to to go to your local library and read the newspapers from the years you want to discuss.....that may help you sound a wee bit more intelligent to those who know more about an era because they lived it.

[jongib369]

http://iranpoliticsclub.net/animation-graphics/obama-bow/images/Anime%20Obama%20dance.gif