Kareem before Magic.

[Pointguard]

This should be a good debate.

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic? Since Wilt left the league was there a franchise player in that period before 80?

If you went by consistently winning and big time players in those winning years, you would have no real standouts but only a select few that made return trips to conference finals during that time:

Cowens for work in '74 thru '76 Two championships and conference finals. I think he's the only one who subscribes to the franchise player title.

Rick Barry for his work in '75 and '76. This is the most impressive because he didn't really have good teammates. Rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best teammate when he won it all and averaged less than half the amount of points as Barry.

After that you can make soft claims for Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson (good for booting Kareem out a couple of years), Elvin Hayes and Dr J. Well I give Dr J a nod because of entertainment value, solid play and his team contending.

Kareem wasn't getting his teams deep in the playoffs despite there not being other good franchises around.

If he wasn't a franchise player in his prime and most productive years when it was a dearth of talent does it affect his GOAT rating? Of course you have to first argue that he wasn't a franchise player.

[IGOTGAME]

I don't think that argument passes the laugh test.

[DKLaker]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

I hate KAJ on a personal level but........this is a fking stupid thread written by another kid who didn't see him play.
He was without any freaking question a franchise player.....THE Franchise player of his time.

[ThunderStruk022]

Thanks for the laugh OP. This thread isn't meant to be serious, right?

[StateOfMind12]

I hate KAJ on a personal level
Why?


And to the OP, if Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, and Chris Paul are franchise players, there shouldn't be a damn question that Kareem was as well.

[Pointguard]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

I hate KAJ on a personal level but........this is a fking stupid thread written by another kid who didn't see him play.
He was without any freaking question a franchise player.....THE Franchise player of his time.

So when in his prime he was the man you could turn to get you at least into the conference finals. Yes or no, question?

Has the meaning of franchise player changed? You got a meaning because what Rick Barry did in that time period was much more impressive than what Kareem did. Barry could win with a rookie Jamal Wilkes as his second best player and Kareem couldn't do it with Jamal Wilkes four years later with Norm Nixon and Adrian Dantley.

What is your counter argument? Were the Lakers a contender that whole time? Did I miss something? Somebody like Lebron is a franchise because he can have you contending every year. Conference finals back then was win games in the playoffs. Not a whole lot.

IGOTGAME and ThunderStruk do you have an argument. Do you think Kareem got a franchise contract from the Laker organization or did I miss that too? Speak up.

[AK47DR91]

He was a franchise player, he just couldn't win with exception to that 1971 season.

For me, that's the reason why I don't put him over Jordan. 1 ring, 1 Finals MVP during an era where he won 5 MVPs.

[StateOfMind12]

He was a franchise player, he just couldn't win with exception to that 1971 season.

For me, that's the reason why I don't put him over Jordan. 1 ring, 1 Finals MVP during an era where he won 5 MVPs.
A large reason why he won 5 MVPs was because of the ABA/NBA competition.

If the ABA/NBA had merged earlier and in the start of the 70s opposed to 76, Julius Erving and other ABA superstars at the time would have more than likely taken a few of Kareem's MVPs.

[kurple]

I hate KAJ on a personal level
why man?

[Pointguard]

Why?

And to the OP, if Derrick Rose, Dwight Howard, and Chris Paul are franchise players, there shouldn't be a damn question that Kareem was as well.
Derrick Rose and DH won games in the conference finals and would likely be repeat guys there. Kareem didn't win a game in the conference finals from '75 to Magic's arrival. That means he didn't win seven games in the playoffs when there were no real standout players. Rick Barry won it all without much help in that time period.

[Kblaze8855]

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic?


A 35/18, 66 win season leading, 5 time MVP who won a ring and made another finals.....and you are asking if he was a franchise player?

Really?

This is looking like a topic I need to either delete or stay out of. I cant read this garbage and ignore it. Im gonna go with staying out for the moment......

[IGOTGAME]

So when in his prime he was the man you could turn to get you at least into the conference finals. Yes or no, question?

Has the meaning of franchise player changed? You got a meaning because what Rick Barry did in that time period was much more impressive than what Kareem did. Barry could win with a rookie Jamal Wilkes as his second best player and Kareem couldn't do it with Jamal Wilkes four years later with Norm Nixon and Adrian Dantley.

What is your counter argument? Were the Lakers a contender that whole time? Did I miss something? Somebody like Lebron is a franchise because he can have you contending every year. Conference finals back then was win games in the playoffs. Not a whole lot.

IGOTGAME and ThunderStruk do you have an argument. Do you think Kareem got a franchise contract from the Laker organization or did I miss that too? Speak up.
I can't respond to nonsense. Seriously, that is a nonsense definition of franchise player.

[DTreats]

Kareem is a scum bag piece of shit.

He was no doubt a franchise player..

First class basketball player and first class d-bag.

[Odinn]

A large reason why he won 5 MVPs was because of the ABA/NBA competition.

If the ABA/NBA had merged earlier and in the start of the 70s opposed to 76, Julius Erving and other ABA superstars at the time would have more than likely taken a few of Kareem's MVPs.
No. Kareem was the best player in the world. Not just the NBA. Also he should have won more.

[Pointguard]

:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

I hate KAJ on a personal level but........this is a fking stupid thread written by another kid who didn't see him play.
He was without any freaking question a franchise player.....THE Franchise player of his time.

LOL, I did see him play and you have to be a kid to present yourself like this. Since you think you are adult enough to talk to a man, tell me why the league was such trouble before Bird and Magic? Would you start a franchise in a crumbling market? Was Kareem the man bringing value to the market? There was certainly a market crisis and why did Magic get the franchise handed to him on a platter after Kareem had 7 years there? Hmmmm, Speak up.

[ThunderStruk022]

LOL, I did see him play and you have to be a kid to present yourself like this. Since you think you are adult enough to talk to a man, tell me why the league was such trouble before Bird and Magic? Would you start a franchise in a crumbling market? Was Kareem the man bringing value to the market? There was certainly a market crisis and why did Magic get the franchise handed to him on a platter after Kareem had 7 years there? Hmmmm, Speak up.

And you're a Wilt fanboy who is manipulating what defines a franchise player in order to try and convince others Kareem was worse than he really was.

[ThunderStruk022]

A large reason why he won 5 MVPs was because of the ABA/NBA competition.

If the ABA/NBA had merged earlier and in the start of the 70s opposed to 76, Julius Erving and other ABA superstars at the time would have more than likely taken a few of Kareem's MVPs.

What ABA player not named Julius Erving, would've been a serious threat to Kareem's "Best Player in the World" throne and Kareem's MVP barrage in the 70s?

There were good players in the ABA but the only one on or close to Kareem's level was Erving.

[Pointguard]

A 35/18, 66 win season leading, 5 time MVP who won a ring and made another finals.....and you are asking if he was a franchise player?

Really?

This is looking like a topic I need to either delete or stay out of. I cant read this garbage and ignore it. Im gonna go with staying out for the moment......
Oh so now a destitute business major is going to tell me that when an industry fails and falls on your clock, go to your past successes and that's good enough. Would you invest in a failing project? Was he good enough to get a franchise contract from the Lakers like the one given on his clock. Was he winning and holding down what was set up for him? From '75 to '79 things were going down south and nobody was consistently handling their business... in the league. Franchise is about a safe projection of future success. Where was the success at?

Its truly disrespectful for you to come at me with threats like you on some quality control??? Are you even reading these boards? You're a monitor and step up on me when I wonder where you are, 80% the time. I know in the past our debates have left you foul, but comon man. Ohh and thanks for leaving out the next line where I describe Franchise above which might have helped you understand what other poster have contributed. Am I asking too much from you??? Keep reading the thread before you reply.

[Pointguard]

And you're a Wilt fanboy who is manipulating what defines a franchise player in order to try and convince others Kareem was worse than he really was.
I couldn't care less about making Kareem look worse. I like Kareem because he stood up as a man in troubled times. Kareem was the undisputed best player at that time for a period longer than Wilt was in his time. He was what he was but Franchise is a business term really based on success and projections. In basketball most people bank on success and charisma. Which is why Magic got the franchise contract.

[jlauber]

While Kareem was the best player of the decade of the 70's, IMHO, he and his team's underachieved.

He won ONE ring, in a post-season in which his 66-16 Bucks routed a 41-41 Warrior team; then bounced a 48-34 Laker team without BOTH West and Baylor (and in which a Wilt, in his WORST season, battled him to a statistical draw...and in fact, received a standing ovation from the MILWAUKEE crowd in the their last game); and then swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

How about the rest of the decade?

His '70 56-26 Bucks were shredded by the 60-22 Knicks in five games. Kareem played well in four of them. Guess which game he did not? In the clinching game five loss (132-96) Reed outplayed him.

Covered '70-71 already. IMHO, his greatest season of his career.

71-72. Kareem played 44 mpg on a team that went 63-19, and had a +11.1 scoring differential. In that season he averaged a career high 34.8 ppg, grabbed 16.6 rpg, handed out 4.6 apg, and shot .574 (in a league that shot .455.) Why do I bring that up you ask? Because Wilt was accused of "stats-padding" in his career. Remember this later on.

Kareem destroyed the NBA in the regular season in 71-72. However, even with him scoing 40 ppg on ,500 shooting against Wilt in five H2H's, Chamberlain led a Laker team that had gone 48-34 the year before (and virtually NO ONE picked them to do anything in 71-72) to a 69-13 record, and a resounding 4-1 series record against Kareem's Bucks. Kareem scored 50 points against Wilt in one game, in which the Lakers wiped out his Bucks, 123-107, and took 39 shots in doing, while being outrebounded by Chamberlain, 25-8.

After Kareem had dominated the NBA in '71, and then waltzed to a title and a FMVP in the post-season, most experts predicted that he and his young Bucks would become the next great dynasty. However, those "experts" forgot to tell the rest of the league. Not only that, but during his 71-72 regular season, he was just waxing his opposing centers (e.g. 44 ppg against Cowens), and ultimately the game came too easy, and too early, for him. IMHO, he "let up" after that.

In the first round of the 71-72 playoffs, Kareem was badly outplayed by Nate Thurmond. Thurmond not only outscored and outshot Kareem, he held Kareem to .405 shooting in the process. Still, Kareem's Bucks were so talented, that they blew away the 51-31 Warriors, 4-1 in the first round.

In the WCF's, Kareem's Bucks blew open the first game, and beat a Laker team that had averaged 121 ppg during the regular season, 93-72. Virtually everyone predicted an easy Bucks win in that series.

However, from that point on, Chamberlain took over the series. The Lakers won four of the next five games, including a blowout win in game five, 115-90, and then a stunning come-from-behind win in Milwaukee in game six. Kareem shot .457 in that series, which was way below his regular season of .574, but not only that, he only shot .414 over the course of the last four pivotal games of that series, and was completely pounded and OUTRUN by Chamberlain in the clinching game six loss.

Virtually EVERYONE who witnessed the '72 WCF's, claimed a "win" by a 35 year old Chamberlain over the 25 year old Kareem. Even the Milwaukee press hailed Wilt as having outplayed Kareem. Time Magazine even went to so far as to declare Wilt as having DECISIVELY outplayed Kareem in that series.

72-73. Kareem's Bucks went 60-22, which tied Wilt's Lakers for the best record in the west. And in their six H2H games, Kareem only shot .450 against a 36 year old Wilt (who shot an eye-popping .737 against Kareem.) Chamberlain even outscored Kareem in one game, 24-21, while outshooting him, 10-14 to 10-27.

In the first round of the playoffs, Kareem once again was matched up against Nate Thurmond's 47-35 Warriors. And in a stunning upset, the Warriors knocked out the heavily-favored Bucks, 4-2. And once again, Kareem couldn't hit the ocean from a life-boat, only shooting .428 in that series. As a sidenote, Chamberlain just crushed Thurmond in the WCF's, and led his Lakers to a 4-1 romp over his Warriors. (I was at game three in Oakland, when the Lakers destroyed GS by a 126-70 margin. The frisby show at halftime was the Warriors biggest highlight.)

73-74. Wilt "retired" after the 72-73 season, and now the door was wide open for Kareem to dominate the NBA. He led his Bucks to the best record in the league, at 59-23, and they easily advanced to the Finals, where they faced Cowens' 56-26 Celtics. Kareem was brilliant in the first six games, including hitting the game winner in game six. That set up a game seven, in Milwaukee, which would finally give Kareem his second ring. Except that no one told Cowens. Cowens took over the game, even with five fouls, and badly outplayed Kareem down the stretch (while outscoring, outrebounding, and outshooting him for the game.) Boston won in a rout.

74-75. Oscar retired after the 73-74 Finals. How much umpact did that have? The Bucks plummetted to a 38-44 record. Granted, Kareem foolishly busted his hand, and missed 16 games (the Bucks went 3-13 in them.) And Lucious Allen was injured for much of the season, as well. Still, even with Kareem, the Bucks only went 35-31.

The Bucks didn't even make the playoffs, either. Not only that, but then Rick Barry, with rookie Jamaal Wilkes (Keith at the time) and a cast of no-names, went 48-34, and then won the title. Remember Wilkes.

75-76. Milwaukee finally gives up on a declining and unmotivated Kareem. They ship him off to LA for a slew of players and picks. Even without Kareem, they still go 38-44 in 75-76.

Meanwhile, Kareem came to a Laker team that had gone 30-52 the year before. True, they had some talent, like Gail Goodrich and Cazzie Russell, but clearly, they needed a big season from Kareem.

This is where Kareem's career becomes interesting. Remember Kareem's 71-72 season, when he played 44.2 mpg, and led the NBA in scoring at 34.8 ppg (on .574 shooting), on a Bucks team that had gone 63-19 and had a scoring differential of +11.1 ppg?

Here was Kareem's chance to prove to the world that he was a "Chamberlain-type" player. Now he could really take over and put up huge numbers. BTW, in '74, '75, and then in '76, Bob McAdoo averaged 30.6 ppg, 34.5 ppg, and 31.1 ppg. So, clearly the opportunity was there for Kareem to challenge many of Wilt's records.

Except...Kareem DECLINED. He could only go 41.2 mpg. And while he did score 27.7 ppg, it came on .529 shooting, which was one of the WORST seasons of his career. He did lead a weak group in rebounding, at 16.9 rpg (Cowens was next at 16.0 rpg), but overall, it was very disappointing season. BTW, that was the only time in Kareem's 20 year career that he led the NBA in rpg. The Lakers only went 40-42, and once again, Kareem missed the playoffs.

76-77. The Lakers, with a year together under their belts, go 53-29 and have the best record in the league. Kareem has a strong season, with a 26.2 ppg, 13.3 rpg, .579 season (his only time that he would lead the NBA in FG%.)

In the post-season, Kareem erupts against the Warriors, putting up a huge series, and his Lakers win in seven games. They moved on to battle Walton's 49-33 Blazers. Kareem crushed Walton in game two, with a 40 point performance, but his team still lost. In the other three games, Walton basically matches Kareem, and is better in the clutch. The Blazers would SWEEP Kareem's Lakers.

BTW, some here have suggested that this was Kareem's greatest season. Statistically, it wasn't even close to his 70-71 and 71-72 seasons. Not only that, but players like Gilmore and Lanier were outscoring him in their seasonal H2H's. He was no longer just blowing away the NBA centers.

77-78. Laker management is committed to bringing a title to LA. They would bring in players like Lou Hudson, Norm Nixon, Charlie Scott, and a fellow by the name of Jamaal Wilkes (remember him from the '75 Warriors?) THEN, they traded for Adrian Dantley, who was averaging 27 ppg when they brought him in. LA is CLEARLY the most talented team in the league.

Yet, even with ALL of that talent, the Lakers would only go 45-37. Then, they were slapped in the first round of the playoffs by a 47-35 Sonics team with ONE borderline HOF player (Dennis Johnson.) A MAJOR under-achieving season. Incidently, the 44-38 Bullets would win the title.

78-79. The core of that talent-laden team now has a year under their belts. Players like Nixon, Wilkes, Hudson, and Dantley. The result? A 47-35 Laker team that would again be wiped out by the Sonics in the second round, 4-1.

Furthermore, Moses Malone was now the most dominant center in the league, and he would go on to brutalize Kareem in the vast majority of their 40 h2H meetings.


Once again, Kareem was the best player in the league for the decade of the 70's, but IMHO, he lacked motivation, and he and his teams, even the LOADED one's, severely under-achieved. He couldn't win a title with teams that went 53-29 (best record in the league), 56-26, 59-23, 60-22, and even 63-19. And this in an era when team's with records of 52-30, 49-33, 48-34, and 44-38 were winning titles (and team's with records of 42-40 and 40-42 making the Finals.)

[Niquesports]

This should be a good debate.

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic? Since Wilt left the league was there a franchise player in that period before 80?

If you went by consistently winning and big time players in those winning years, you would have no real standouts but only a select few that made return trips to conference finals during that time:

Cowens for work in '74 thru '76 Two championships and conference finals. I think he's the only one who subscribes to the franchise player title.

Rick Barry for his work in '75 and '76. This is the most impressive because he didn't really have good teammates. Rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best teammate when he won it all and averaged less than half the amount of points as Barry.

After that you can make soft claims for Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson (good for booting Kareem out a couple of years), Elvin Hayes and Dr J. Well I give Dr J a nod because of entertainment value, solid play and his team contending.

Kareem wasn't getting his teams deep in the playoffs despite there not being other good franchises around.

If he wasn't a franchise player in his prime and most productive years when it was a dearth of talent does it affect his GOAT rating? Of course you have to first argue that he wasn't a franchise player.


Kareem was never the out going personable type player. Then when he change his name with that personality the media never game him due. He was very out spoken . I can only imagine if Lebron changed his name to Ali Muhammd in today culture. They may kick him out the league.

No one not media or the players like Barry

Cowens was a Celtic you either loved them or hated them
Walton stayed hurt
In the 70's baseball was still big, football was growing ,boxing was still big.
There really was no room for basketball.
Magic the black kid with the smile and Bird the white kid from the country was a dream for the NBA. If anyone for one second dont believe that was a set up Magic going to LA and Bird going to Boston. I have some land I wanna sell you.
To answer your question I really agree with you. You couldn't put a bilboard out of Kareem and think people were gonna rush up to get in the game.If anyone says different they they either werent there or was on Mars at that time.

[ThunderStruk022]

I've manipulated facts in order to tell you why Kareem underachieved during his career while you can't ever accuse Wilt of doing the same.

This is what I got from all of that nonsense.

We get it. While Kareem and every other great center in NBA history underachieved, choked, etc. at different points of their career, the same can never be said of Wilt.

[jlauber]

This is what I got from all of that nonsense.

We get it. While Kareem and every other great center in NBA history underachieved, choked, etc. at different points of their career, the same can never be said of Wilt.

Go ahead and give us YOUR researched opinions then...

[Pointguard]

Thanks JLauber.

There were a couple of double edged swords with Kareem. He had the mantle as the best without question but he wasn't blue collar. He looked like he didn't want to play a lot. Back then with the economy struggling a bit, there no precedents of the best player in any sport looking disinterested and not hustling. The tradition of centers from Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Cowens, Unseld was that you work and earn your position as number one. Kareem was a bit baffling in that regards. People hated Ali because he made number one look easy but people loved him too because he had off the charts charisma and success. So Kareem was getting the hate and no love. And the whole league didn't have a favorable face because of it.

Even today you let the face of your franchise, not hustle, not win and seemingly take for granted he's getting a check ('78) and I guarantee you are setting yourself up for failure.

[ThunderStruk022]

Go ahead and give us YOUR researched opinions then...

Why? YOU'LL just come back with another rambling blabbering post where you manipulate information AND/OR leave out important information, and tell EVERYONE why Wilt's teammates choked despite Wilt PLAYING a near perfect SERIES.

[DTreats]

He does bring up a good point..

Would you want a muslim to be your franchise player?

I don't think most fans would be too happy with that decision, how do you know one day said player won't wake up and decide to blow up the stadium? You know how radical those people can be.

All in all I think Alcindor would make a GREAT franchise player, as long as he doesn't change his name and all that bullshit.

[Pointguard]

Kareem was never the out going personable type player. Then when he change his name with that personality the media never game him due. He was very out spoken . I can only imagine if Lebron changed his name to Ali Muhammd in today culture. They may kick him out the league.

No one not media or the players like Barry

Cowens was a Celtic you either loved them or hated them
Walton stayed hurt
In the 70's baseball was still big, football was growing ,boxing was still big.
There really was no room for basketball.
Magic the black kid with the smile and Bird the white kid from the country was a dream for the NBA. If anyone for one second dont believe that was a set up Magic going to LA and Bird going to Boston. I have some land I wanna sell you.
To answer your question I really agree with you. You couldn't put a bilboard out of Kareem and think people were gonna rush up to get in the game.If anyone says different they they either werent there or was on Mars at that time.
Thanks Nique, for the thoughtful post. Kareem was loaded with political context and other perceptions which made the franchise label and league face a hard fit.

[Pointguard]

Why? YOU'LL just come back with another rambling blabbering post where you manipulate information AND/OR leave out important information, and tell EVERYONE why Wilt's teammates choked despite Wilt PLAYING a near perfect SERIES.
Yo, you came off earlier like you were a man or of some age. Some questions were put to you and now you are trying to go off on some tangent with a different poster on a different topic (we have to help the moderators here). Why don't you deal the hand you were dealt?

[Deuce Bigalow]

This should be a good debate.

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic? Since Wilt left the league was there a franchise player in that period before 80?

If you went by consistently winning and big time players in those winning years, you would have no real standouts but only a select few that made return trips to conference finals during that time:

Cowens for work in '74 thru '76 Two championships and conference finals. I think he's the only one who subscribes to the franchise player title.

Rick Barry for his work in '75 and '76. This is the most impressive because he didn't really have good teammates. Rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best teammate when he won it all and averaged less than half the amount of points as Barry.

After that you can make soft claims for Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson (good for booting Kareem out a couple of years), Elvin Hayes and Dr J. Well I give Dr J a nod because of entertainment value, solid play and his team contending.

Kareem wasn't getting his teams deep in the playoffs despite there not being other good franchises around.

If he wasn't a franchise player in his prime and most productive years when it was a dearth of talent does it affect his GOAT rating? Of course you have to first argue that he wasn't a franchise player.
1971
Champion
Finals MVP
MVP
All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
Scoring Champion

[jlauber]

1971
Champion
Finals MVP
MVP
All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
Scoring Champion

His SECOND season, and IMHO, his GREATEST (if you include the playoffs.) And a 71-72 Kareem just blew away the league in the REGULAR season. He then had a MISERABLE post-season. From that point on, in the decade of the 70's, he and his team's under-achieved...plain-and-simple...in a WEAK era for champions (after WILT retired.)

And his domination of his peers declined, as well. Yes, when MOTIVATED he would put up 40-50+ point games, but they became less-and-less as the decade progressed. By the mid-to-late 70's, centers like McAdoo, Lanier, and Gilmore were on his level. And by the late 70's, Moses was dominating him and the entire NBA.

[Pointguard]

1971
Champion
Finals MVP
MVP
All-NBA First Team
All-Defensive Second Team
Scoring Champion

He never lacked in accolades or showing he was the best individual player. Franchise implies you have a dynastic vision with a player. Lebron could have consistently taken an otherwise bad team - one of the league's worse, to the ECF's or even beyond. That's a great cornerstone for a franchise. Thus, a franchise player.

[ThunderStruk022]

Yo, you came off earlier like you were a man or of some age. Some questions were put to you and now you are trying to go off on some tangent with a different poster on a different topic (we have to help the moderators here). Why don't you deal the hand you were dealt?

Not real suer what yo mean by coming off like a man or of some age? That's confusing.

Anyway. I don't have a problem with Wilt. He was a phenomenal player, obviously, and if you want to make a case for him as the GOAT, I can live with it. Heck, gun to my head, I don't know if there's any other center I'd pick to build a team around.

I just get a kick out of jlauber's constant defending of Wilt, even when it's unwarranted, and acting like he never messed up and was never at fault for losing a playoff game or series. He constantly criticizes Wilt's teammates and coaches for not doing enough to win a game or series and never places even the smallest amount of blame on Wilt. It's like, in his mind, Wilt walked on water and healed the sick in basketball terms. And, because of that, it's damn near impossible to take him seriously because he's not the least bit objective in his posts and is the very definition of a "stan", "fanboy", or whatever other terms apply to maniacal overzealous fans.

I mean if the guy can't even at least admit that there is some blame to be placed on Wilt for not beating Russell and winning more championships, despite apparently being a far superior player, then I can't take him seriously as a poster.

[Pointguard]

Not real suer what yo mean by coming off like a man or of some age? That's confusing.

Anyway. I don't have a problem with Wilt. He was a phenomenal player, obviously, and if you want to make a case for him as the GOAT, I can live with it. Heck, gun to my head, I don't know if there's any other center I'd pick to build a team around.

I just get a kick out of jlauber's constant defending of Wilt, even when it's unwarranted, and acting like he never messed up and was never at fault for losing a playoff game or series. He constantly criticizes Wilt's teammates and coaches for not doing enough to win a game or series and never places even the smallest amount of blame on Wilt. It's like, in his mind, Wilt waked on water and healed the sick in basketball terms. And, because of that, it's damn near impossible to take him seriously because he's not the least bit objective in his posts and is the very definition of a "stan", "fanboy", or whatever other terms apply to maniacal overzealous fans.

I mean if the guy can't even at least admit that there is some blame to be placed on Wilt for not beating Russell and winning more championships, despite apparently being a far superior player, then I can't take him seriously as a poster.
Don't worry about it. We all good.

[Ne 1]

He was a franchise player, he just couldn't win with exception to that 1971 season.

For me, that's the reason why I don't put him over Jordan. 1 ring, 1 Finals MVP during an era where he won 5 MVPs.

That's because Kareem played with absolute trash in the mid 70's which wasted a lot of his prime. I saw some footage from some playoff series vs Golden State and Portland and nobody on the Lakers could do anything except for Kareem. A lot of his teammates looked like they belonged in the CBA. (The D-League of that time)

Jordan had better casts around him during his prime years than Kareem did. Kareem was out for two extended periods during his prime and his teams were the worst in the league without him (and on pace for around 50 wins with him). People (Jordan stans in particular) can keep getting at him for not winning more in the mid to late 70s but there comes a point where you have to realize your team just f*cking sucks and you can't win even if you play like a God, like Kareem did (Jordan in the 80s for example). Kareem could have won in '74, they made the finals, and he had one of the most amazing Finals performances ever (33/12/5/4), which included sinking a game winner in a double overtime to keep his team alive, and abusing the entire Celtics front line. But what else can he do in a game 7, when his second best player (Oscar) shoots just 2-13? Even your boy Jordan couldn't win game 7s when his team disappeared (Pistons in 1990 for example, something Jordan fans love to use too).

[Coffee Black]

The Bucks with Kareem were great, albeit not the best. They had a record setting team, good records, and good showings the playoffs.

The Kareem Lakers before 1980 were just not well constructed teams. Kareem was still great, but maybe not as great as when he was Buck. The gaurds in those Lakers teams played statue like defense, not too mention the self destructive 1978 team, and players like Kermit Washington and Adrian Dantley, whom were the best for building championship teams.

[DMAVS41]

Kareem was definitely a franchise player and the best player of the 70's...

I rank Magic higher on my all time list though. Just thought Magic was a better player quite honestly.

[Pointguard]

The Bucks with Kareem were great, albeit not the best. They had a record setting team, good records, and good showings the playoffs.

The Kareem Lakers before 1980 were just not well constructed teams. Kareem was still great, but maybe not as great as when he was Buck. The gaurds in those Lakers teams played statue like defense, not too mention the self destructive 1978 team, and players like Kermit Washington and Adrian Dantley, whom were the best for building championship teams.
Those are weird times - the late 70's. And teams were good for two years and then disappeared. In the 80's there were five or six franchises/dynasties.

Kareem was definitely a franchise player and the best player of the 70's...

I rank Magic higher on my all time list though. Just thought Magic was a better player quite honestly.
On my team (not the case with yours), I don't consider Mello or Amare franchise players because we aren't and weren't, really contenders. And, I, perhaps have projected that onto my outlook a bit too hard? But I do notice that most of the posters here rarely use the term primarily because few players really deserve the title. I reserved the title for guys that I would feel good that my team is in contention for a title, particularly when the whole league sucks.

Other words, I feel a franchise player is the player that if you traded, you really feel that you have given up your hopes of contending.

[DKLaker]

So when in his prime he was the man you could turn to get you at least into the conference finals. Yes or no, question?

Has the meaning of franchise player changed? You got a meaning because what Rick Barry did in that time period was much more impressive than what Kareem did. Barry could win with a rookie Jamal Wilkes as his second best player and Kareem couldn't do it with Jamal Wilkes four years later with Norm Nixon and Adrian Dantley.

What is your counter argument? Were the Lakers a contender that whole time? Did I miss something? Somebody like Lebron is a franchise because he can have you contending every year. Conference finals back then was win games in the playoffs. Not a whole lot.

IGOTGAME and ThunderStruk do you have an argument. Do you think Kareem got a franchise contract from the Laker organization or did I miss that too? Speak up.

NBA had incredibly stacked teams.....like it is starting to be now, that changes everything. KAJ was a horrible teammate and the Lakers needed a glue guy leader like Magic, a guy who could lead but still cater to KAJ......something Kobe should've done with Shaq.

This is easy stuff....Michael Jordan would've never won a ring if the Lakers, Pistons, Celtics teams didn't get old......had he come in with Magic and Bird he'd just be another Dominique.

[Pointguard]

NBA had incredibly stacked teams.....like it is starting to be now, that changes everything. KAJ was a horrible teammate and the Lakers needed a glue guy leader like Magic, a guy who could lead but still cater to KAJ......something Kobe should've done with Shaq.

This is easy stuff....Michael Jordan would've never won a ring if the Lakers, Pistons, Celtics teams didn't get old......had he come in with Magic and Bird he'd just be another Dominique.
Back then, if you won six playoff games you are in the conference finals. And that time period had no dynasties or really good teams for more than two years. If Jordan was around ten years earlier he has no franchise team to worry about. It was a great opportunity time for people to get rings - Gus Williams was close to winning two rings as the man and most folks here don't know who he is. The 80's had more dynastic franchises than any other time in the sport. The 70's the least. No way Magic, Jordan, Bird come out of the late 70's without three rings. Heck Barry had one with no help.

[Niquesports]

Back then, if you won six playoff games you are in the conference finals. And that time period had no dynasties or really good teams for more than two years. If Jordan was around ten years earlier he has no franchise team to worry about. It was a great opportunity time for people to get rings - Gus Williams was close to winning two rings as the man and most folks here don't know who he is. The 80's had more dynastic franchises than any other time in the sport. The 70's the least. No way Magic, Jordan, Bird come out of the late 70's without three rings. Heck Barry had one with no help.
Can anyone name the team that went to the most finals in the 70's ? My Bullets

[INDI]

Oh so now a destitute business major is going to tell me that when an industry fails and falls on your clock, go to your past successes and that's good enough. Would you invest in a failing project? Was he good enough to get a franchise contract from the Lakers like the one given on his clock. Was he winning and holding down what was set up for him? From '75 to '79 things were going down south and nobody was consistently handling their business... in the league. Franchise is about a safe projection of future success. Where was the success at?

Its truly disrespectful for you to come at me with threats like you on some quality control??? Are you even reading these boards? You're a monitor and step up on me when I wonder where you are, 80% the time. I know in the past our debates have left you foul, but comon man. Ohh and thanks for leaving out the next line where I describe Franchise above which might have helped you understand what other poster have contributed. Am I asking too much from you??? Keep reading the thread before you reply.

Your thread is misleading. You ask is he a franchise player, the thread says before magic but your limiting it to 75-79. That is not before magic, before magic means ALL of the years before magic which he was a champion and MVP

[Pointguard]

Can anyone name the team that went to the most finals in the 70's ? My Bullets
Earl Monroe, Gus Johnson, Gene Shue, Wes Unseld and Elvin Hayes you had good reason to be proud and entertained.

I saw on Reel to Reel when Phil Chenier punched Walt Frazier in the face and Walt didn't hit him back, but went totally ballistic on him. Frazier mopped the floor with him after that. The impact was such that Walt had knocked him out.

[ILLsmak]

links to the "DON'T MAKE A FOOL OF YOURSELF YOUNG MAN YOU NEVER SAW HIM PLAY" thread.

-Smak

[crisoner]

There are threads on this board like this...then we wonder why in the NBA All Time list LeBron is at 11 etc.

Not surprised at all.

[Pointguard]

Your thread is misleading. You ask is he a franchise player, the thread says before magic but your limiting it to 75-79. That is not before magic, before magic means ALL of the years before magic which he was a champion and MVP
True, I should have said between the great PG's.

[AlphaWolf24]

wow...wat a strange thread...

surprisingly people caught feelings..

Internet - berious sisnuss

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Really though? :lol

[Pointguard]

There are threads on this board like this...then we wonder why in the NBA All Time list LeBron is at 11 etc.

Not surprised at all.
How Ironic???

If you read this thread you would see that Lebron earned the franchise label because he could take a last place team to the conference finals (and even the finals)and win two rounds consistently. If Lebron had lost like Kareem, in an era where there was no other great players, Lebron wouldn't be a franchise player. And Kareem was in his prime. But there's no room for the argument. So don't be surprised, there are things in the mirror and your dome, that you don't understand.

[Odinn]

Kareem between the great PGs.
Kobe between the great bigs.
Shaq between the great guards.
Jordan before Pippen.

:sleeping :sleeping :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:

[Legends66NBA7]

If you read this thread you would see that Lebron earned the franchise label because he could take a last place team to the conference finals (and even the finals)and win two rounds consistently.

So did Kareem.

Kareem won a title with a 3rd year expansion team and came one game away from winning another title in 1974. That's better than what LeBron did with the Cavs.


If Lebron had lost like Kareem, in an era where there was no other great players, Lebron wouldn't be a franchise player.

LeBron and Kareem are both franchise players, regardless of what happens about winning.

[Pointguard]

Kareem between the great PGs.
Kobe between the great bigs.
Shaq between the great guards.
Jordan before Pippen.

:sleeping :sleeping :confusedshrug: :confusedshrug:


You will rank a player high because he won chips but have no system at all for calculating how one player might have had a much easier path or how another one might have had another guy (team) totally blocking his path. KG was in a stacked Western Conference while his management totally sucked but you really don't have a system to calculate simple things much less injuries, management, greatly constructed teams and such. Karl Malone wins two chips if he wasn't a contemporary of MJ - one of the games best winners. So Karl can't attain a top twenty status that would perhaps be top nine if MJ wasn't there.

Duncan runs into Shaq and Kobe together on a couple of his runs and who knows how to factor that in? But when there is no other great around, no team that is even consistently good, its wrong to say Kareem should win. So your second best player has some severe handicap going on? So Rick Barry without help so should be able to do what Kareem couldn't.

[Bigsmoke]

why thats a good question

was the best player in the 70's was a franchise player?:rolleyes:

[Pointguard]

So did Kareem.

Kareem won a title with a 3rd year expansion team and came one game away from winning another title in 1974. That's better than what LeBron did with the Cavs.

LeBron and Kareem are both franchise players, regardless of what happens about winning.

All I'm saying is that great players max out opportunities. From '75 to '79 its hard to identify a franchise player and it was a great opportunity for any great to separate himself. Opposition is weak, no team consistently wins, no player puts his mark on the game. If Rick Barry can do it alone than most of the top 20 GOAT list could do it alone. If Lebron had not gotten out of the first round this board would have dogged him to no end and this is an era with probably six or seven on people ranked very high on the GOAT list and some real franchises.

[Ne 1]

From '75 to '79 its hard to identify a franchise player and it was a great opportunity for any great to separate himself.

1975- The team was just 3-14 without Kareem, but 35-30 with him.

1976- Kareem joined a team that had gone 30-52 and he improved them by 10 wins, but due to a ridiculous format that saw teams 38-44 and 36-46 records make the playoffs, Kareem missed the playoffs, despite his team being better than either of those.

1977- He didn't have a strong cast to begin with so the injuries really hurt. Kareem played out of his mind during the playoffs, but the team was exposed as a one man team like LeBron's 2009 Cavs. Go watch the 3 playoff games available from this run. Kareem averaged 35/18/4/4 on 61% shooting in the playoffs.

1978- The team started off something like 8-13 without Kareem, yet they ended up 45-37, this should show how great Kareem is and how average this cast was. His playoff numbers were again atleast as good as his regular season numbers or better. He averaged 27/14/4/4 on 52% shooting in the playoffs. The only thing that stands out is his unusually poor FT% in the playoffs(56%).

1979- This team seriously lacked a power forward which forced Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley to play the position. Dantley turned into a great scorer, but at this point, he wasn't as great at that yet, and Dantley was a guy who wasn't exactly a well-rounded versatile player. Their backcourt got lit up by Seattle's as well. Adding Jim Chones and Spencer Haywood in 1980 solved their problems at power forward while Magic gave them more talent and Michael Cooper helped them defensively, that made them a much more well rounded team. But Kareem still raised his game in the playoffs averaging 29/13/5/4 on 58% shooting.

Kareem was stuck on mediocre teams for a lot of the 70s decade, and some seasons when he wasn't, like in 1974, a key player missed the entire playoffs.

The fact that he turned the Bucks around so well and carried them so far in '74. He didn't play up to his standards in '72 and '73, but again, one of those losses was to a 69-13 team. And of course, the '75 team sucked without him. A good cast doesn't go 3-14 without their best player.

With the Lakers? I can't see one season from '76-'79 where Kareem should've won a title. He didn't have a chance in '76 due to the ridiculous format, he played incredible basketball in '77 and he got no help. Of course the mediocrity of his cast was again exposed in '78 when he missed an extended period of time for one of the few times in his career and not having a legit PF who can play defense and rebound in '79 as well as his backcourt getting lit up is hardly his fault.

[Pointguard]

why thats a good question

was the best player in the 70's was a franchise player?:rolleyes:

Read up on your history. Franchise is a business term. Not who is the best player which I already admitted several times in this post. The league was suffering at the time as well. As Nique posted earlier, was Kareem the face of the team? Were the Laker's convinced he was worth the investment, like say Magie???

Kareem didn't get the franchise contract - Magic got that six years after Kareem had a chance to prove himself. Lightbulb moment for you guys who aren't reading the thread.

Wilt and Russell made the game the nation's number two sport in the nation. After they left the ship was sinking. No player, was capable of carrying the league and there was no player carrying their team with any success. On Kareem's watch football and Boxing had moved ahead of Basketball in a short seven year span. Who was the successful franchise???

[Pointguard]

1975- The team was just 3-14 without Kareem, but 35-30 with him.

1976- Kareem joined a team that had gone 30-52 and he improved them by 10 wins, but due to a ridiculous format that saw teams 38-44 and 36-46 records make the playoffs, Kareem missed the playoffs, despite his team being better than either of those.

1977- He didn't have a strong cast to begin with so the injuries really hurt. Kareem played out of his mind during the playoffs, but the team was exposed as a one man team like LeBron's 2009 Cavs. Go watch the 3 playoff games available from this run. Kareem averaged 35/18/4/4 on 61% shooting in the playoffs.

1978- The team started off something like 8-13 without Kareem, yet they ended up 45-37, this should show how great Kareem is and how average this cast was. His playoff numbers were again atleast as good as his regular season numbers or better. He averaged 27/14/4/4 on 52% shooting in the playoffs. The only thing that stands out is his unusually poor FT% in the playoffs(56%).

1979- This team seriously lacked a power forward which forced Jamaal Wilkes and Adrian Dantley to play the position. Dantley turned into a great scorer, but at this point, he wasn't as great at that yet, and Dantley was a guy who wasn't exactly a well-rounded versatile player. Their backcourt got lit up by Seattle's as well. Adding Jim Chones and Spencer Haywood in 1980 solved their problems at power forward while Magic gave them more talent and Michael Cooper helped them defensively, that made them a much more well rounded team. But Kareem still raised his game in the playoffs averaging 29/13/5/4 on 58% shooting.

Kareem was stuck on mediocre teams for a lot of the 70s decade, and some seasons when he wasn't, like in 1974, a key player missed the entire playoffs.

The fact that he turned the Bucks around so well and carried them so far in '74. He didn't play up to his standards in '72 and '73, but again, one of those losses was to a 69-13 team. And of course, the '75 team sucked without him. A good cast doesn't go 3-14 without their best player.

With the Lakers? I can't see one season from '76-'79 where Kareem should've won a title. He didn't have a chance in '76 due to the ridiculous format, he played incredible basketball in '77 and he got no help. Of course the mediocrity of his cast was again exposed in '78 when he missed an extended period of time for one of the few times in his career and not having a legit PF who can play defense and rebound in '79 as well as his backcourt getting lit up is hardly his fault.
Good Post Ne

It wasn't the best of situations, I agree. But I will add who are you saying had it good? In all honesty I would take all of those teams over Rick Barry's championship squad. That time period it was wide open.

In '78 and '79 Kareem was really falling out of favor with people because of his lack of hustle and lack of concentration and concern.

[BlueandGold]

Not sure if serious... Kareem has literally won on every level before Magic arrived, winning state titles, 3 NCAA titles (or was it 4? too lazy to look up =/) as well as an NBA championship his first couple of seasons in the league..

a better question would be: what's the agenda of the OP in asking this question?

[Pointguard]

Not sure if serious... Kareem has literally won on every level before Magic arrived, winning state titles, 3 NCAA titles (or was it 4? too lazy to look up =/) as well as an NBA championship his first couple of seasons in the league..

a better question would be: what's the agenda of the OP in asking this question?

My agenda is for you to think.

[DKLaker]

My agenda is for you to think.

Obviously you are either incredibly ignorant or a little kid using his mommy's computer. Any sane person that watched basketball during the 70's thinks you should STFU.

[Pointguard]

Obviously you are either incredibly ignorant or a little kid using his mommy's computer. Any sane person that watched basketball during the 70's thinks you should STFU.
:lol well you just exposed your other screen-name. Actually the only guys that watched in the 70's, and participated in this thread, agreed with me - read the thread.

[bdreason]

LOL @ Dr. J taking Kareem's MVP's.

[TheBigVeto]

This should be a good debate.

Was Kareem even a franchise player before Magic? Since Wilt left the league was there a franchise player in that period before 80?

If you went by consistently winning and big time players in those winning years, you would have no real standouts but only a select few that made return trips to conference finals during that time:

Cowens for work in '74 thru '76 Two championships and conference finals. I think he's the only one who subscribes to the franchise player title.

Rick Barry for his work in '75 and '76. This is the most impressive because he didn't really have good teammates. Rookie Jamal Wilkes was his second best teammate when he won it all and averaged less than half the amount of points as Barry.

After that you can make soft claims for Gus Williams/Dennis Johnson (good for booting Kareem out a couple of years), Elvin Hayes and Dr J. Well I give Dr J a nod because of entertainment value, solid play and his team contending.

Kareem wasn't getting his teams deep in the playoffs despite there not being other good franchises around.

If he wasn't a franchise player in his prime and most productive years when it was a dearth of talent does it affect his GOAT rating? Of course you have to first argue that he wasn't a franchise player.


WTF?

Magic owes more to Kareem than the other way around.
Kareem = true GOAT candidate
Magic = true coat tail rider

[Pointguard]

WTF?

Magic owes more to Kareem than the other way around.
Kareem = true GOAT candidate
Magic = true coat tail rider

No way does Magic play in the 70's and gets one ring. And from '75 to '79 it would seem impossible for him not to win a Conference Final game. Magic, practically, all by his lonesome, won a championship game against a starving and super thirsty MJ and Pippen with several capable franchises and a bunch of super players in the wind. In the mid to late 70's, the good players and solid franchises were lacking considerably.

[IGOTGAME]

LOL @ Dr. J taking Kareem's MVP's.

This.

[caliman]

I can't believe this thread is still going on.

[Pointguard]

During the later '70's Doc does deserve some respect. He was easily the games most exciting player and his team had success in the regular season and the playoffs. The league just wasn't sure about a perimeter player being its face. Doc was captivating to see play.

[Pointguard]

I can't believe this thread is still going on.

The counter argument hasn't stepped up. I have been fair and answered all thoughtful contest. I don't think a lot of people know the era and can't answer as to what went wrong.

[magictricked]

The counter argument hasn't stepped up. I have been fair and answered all thoughtful contest. I don't think a lot of people know the era and can't answer as to what went wrong.
Considering the thread is a joke there is no counter argument to be made. The fact is you have not presented a case that deserves a "counter argument" the onus is on you. I'm not holding my breath because I doubt you have the wherewithal to overcome your own agenda.

[Pointguard]

Considering the thread is a joke there is no counter argument to be made. The fact is you have not presented a case that deserves a "counter argument" the onus is on you. I'm not holding my breath because I doubt you have the wherewithal to overcome your own agenda.

Ok who got the FRANCHISE contract on the Lakers during Kareem's tenure? Was the franchise convinced of a player to carry them, before the above player came and was five years deep into Kareem's prime and tenure?

Please back yourself up. That's a fair request.

[The Iron Fist]

Ok who got the FRANCHISE contract on the Lakers during Kareem's tenure? Was the franchise convinced of a player to carry them, before the above player came and was five years deep into Kareem's prime and tenure?

Please back yourself up. That's a fair request.
Make the thread, "magic, before and after he played with Kareem the GOAT".

Tell us of all the titles he won w no Cap.

[Pointguard]

Make the thread, "magic, before and after he played with Kareem the GOAT".

Tell us of all the titles he won w no Cap.
Why??? You're telling me Kareem got the franchise contract??? And that Magic didn't?