Wilt Chamberlain's Faults and Weaknesses

[ThunderStruk022]

Wilt's weaknesses according to jlauber:














A list of his faults (when it was his fault his team lost a playoff game or series) according to jlauber:














Will add more if/when he admits to them.

[Colbertnation64]

Is this one of those things that seem funnier in your head?

[millwad]

According to Jlauber Wilt had no weaknesses, he only had strenghts and everytime he failed in the playoffs it was due HORRIBLE teammates.

[ThunderStruk022]

According to Jlauber Wilt had no weaknesses, he only had strenghts and everytime he failed in the playoffs it was due HORRIBLE teammates.

Not true. It wasn't always his teammates fault. Sometimes his coach let Wilt down and failed miserably.

[SourPatchKids]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071204015028/fhif/images/6/6b/Pre-accident_Wilt.jpg

[millwad]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20071204015028/fhif/images/6/6b/Pre-accident_Wilt.jpg

SourPatchDicks - GOAT POSTER!

[ThunderStruk022]

Just like with Wilt, SourPatch has no weaknesses in his posting game. When he makes a bad post, it's our fault for reading it incorrectly.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jlauber said that Wilt carried garbage rosters in the playoffs

Turns out that Wilt played with 7 HOFers:
West
Baylor
Arizen
Hal Greer
Billy Cunningham
Goodrich
Thurmond

[ThunderStruk022]

Jlauber said that Wilt carried garbage rosters in the playoffs

Turns out that Wilt played with 7 HOFers:
West
Baylor
Arizen
Hal Greer
Billy Cunningham
Goodrich
Thurmond

Yes, but all of those Hall of Famers either choked, were past their prime, before their prime, or weren't as good as everyone thinks. Everyone knows that when Wilt had HOF teammates and lost in the playoffs, it was their fault, and they were either past their prime, before their prime, or choked.

[jlauber]

Jlauber said that Wilt carried garbage rosters in the playoffs

Turns out that Wilt played with 7 HOFers:
West
Baylor
Arizen
Hal Greer
Billy Cunningham
Goodrich
Thurmond

What a JOKE.

Baylor? ONE FULL season. And in that FULL season, Baylor completely puked all over himself in the playoffs.

Thurmond? Yep...a rookie, who played part-time, out of position (and who BACKED Wilt up for very brief minutes.) This is really laughable.

Cunningham? TWO post-seasons. One in which he WON a title. In the other Cunningham shot .161. (And he missed the ECF's in '68.)

That leaves West, Greer, Arizin, and Goodrich. Aside from West, no more than THREE FULL seasons with each. And, he WON a ring with Greer and Goodrich.

However, Greer was awful in the '66 playoffs. And once again, in '68, the Sixers were DECIMATED by injuries, and STILL lost a game seven to Boston by four points.

Arizin? He played with Wilt in his last three seasons. He generally played well, but even he had TWO horrible playoff's (shooting .375 and .325 in his last two post-seasons.) Of course, while he was paired with Chamberlain, Russell had supporting casts with as much as SEVEN HOFers.

West? First of all, he missed ONE FULL post-season. Secondly, he had ONE brilliant post-season (68-69), in which BAYLOR and VAN BREDA KOLF cost the Lakers a title. He had a great run in the '70 post-season, too, until game seven of the Finals, when Frazier just destroyed him. Once again, he missed the '71 playoffs. And he was AWFUL in the '72 playoffs, shooting .376 (and only .325 in the Finals), and yet, thanks to WILT, he finally won a ring. And he was injured in the '73 post-season, and overall, played poorly.


And, as I previously mentioned, Chamberlain had to battle Russell's Celtics in TEN of his 14 seasons (EIGHT H2H in the post-season.) Russell had anywhere from FOUR to EIGHT HOFers (and much deeper bench's) his ENTIRE career.

Then, in Wilt's last four seasons, he blew out his knee in '70, and still somehow got his 46-36 team to a game seven against the 60-22 Knicks and their FOUR HOFers. In the 70-71 post-season, Wilt had to battle Kareem's 66-16 Bucks, without BOTH West and Baylor. In the 71-72 post-season, Chamberlain chopped down Kareem and his 63-19 Bucks in the WCF's, and then dominated a Knick team that had FIVE HOFers in the Finals. And in his LAST post-season, Chamberlain's injury-riddled Lakers lost four close games in the Finals, against a Knick team that had SIX HOFers.

[jlauber]

Weaknesses?

Of course his FT shooting was a big weakness. However, and as I have stated many times, his IMPACT at the line offset much of it. His TEAM's ROUTINELY LED the NBA in FTAs, and were even more dominant in that regard in his post-seasons.

Furthermore, players like Shaq, Russell, and even Duncan were poor FT shooters. And even players like Hakeem and Kareem were BELOW average FT shooters. BTW, Wilt MADE more FTs than all of them.


Another weakness was his "Goliath Complex."

Had Wilt played like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

And he would have made a complete mockery of the NBA. However, there is NO WAY that the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play that way. They were already creating anti-Wilt RULES in an attempt to curtail his domination. They would never have allowed him to dominate his peers to the point that they would have been carrying them out in body-bags.

[Deuce Bigalow]

It was actually 9 HOFers Teammates

Wilt's HOF teammates

'60 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'61 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'62 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'63 - Tom Gola
'64 - Nate Thurmond
'65 - Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker
'66 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'67 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'68 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'69 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'70 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'71 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'72 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'73 - Jerry West, Gail Goodrich

Wilt's teammates that were All-Stars but NOT HOFers

'62 - Tom Mescherry
'63 - Guy Rodgers
'64 - Guy Rodgers
'65 - Luke Jackson

Wilt had Hall Of Fame teammates on his team every single season of his career. 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates.

[ThunderStruk022]

Weaknesses?

Of course his FT shooting was a big weakness. However, and as I have stated many times, his IMPACT at the line offset much of it. His TEAM's ROUTINELY LED the NBA in FTAs, and were even more dominant in that regard in his post-seasons.

Furthermore, players like Shaq, Russell, and even Duncan were poor FT shooters. And even players like Hakeem and Kareem were BELOW average FT shooters. BTW, Wilt MADE more FTs than all of them.


Another weakness was his "Goliath Complex."

Had Wilt played like this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

And he would have made a complete mockery of the NBA. However, there is NO WAY that the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play that way. They were already creating anti-Wilt RULES in an attempt to curtail his domination. They would never have allowed him to dominate his peers to the point that they would have been carrying them out in body-bags.

And there you have it. Even when he mans up and tells us both of Wilt's weaknesses, he follows up by making even more excuses for why they actually weren't weaknesses. His horrendous FT shooting wasn't actually a weakness because his teams led the league and playoffs in FTA. And apparently the NBA was doing everything they could in order to keep Wilt down by constantly changing rules in order to hinder Wilt's game.

Yes, Shaq got away with some physical play but he also received a ton of uncalled physical punishment in return. Times change. The early 2000s to the mid-2000s was an extremely physical era. Who cares if Wilt wouldn't have gotten away with that in his era?

[Deuce Bigalow]

And he would have made a complete mockery of the NBA. However, there is NO WAY that the NBA would have allowed Chamberlain to play that way. They were already creating anti-Wilt RULES in an attempt to curtail his domination. They would never have allowed him to dominate his peers to the point that they would have been carrying them out in body-bags.
:roll: :roll: :oldlol:

[jlauber]

It was actually 9 HOFers Teammates

Wilt's HOF teammates

'60 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'61 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'62 - Paul Arizen, Tom Gola
'63 - Tom Gola
'64 - Nate Thurmond
'65 - Nate Thurmond, Hal Greer, Chet Walker
'66 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'67 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'68 - Hal Greer, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker
'69 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'70 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor
'71 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'72 - Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich
'73 - Jerry West, Gail Goodrich

Wilt's teammates that were All-Stars but NOT HOFers

'62 - Tom Mescherry
'63 - Guy Rodgers
'64 - Guy Rodgers
'65 - Luke Jackson

Wilt had HOFer(s) teammates on his team every single season of his career. 12/14 seasons he had at least 2 HOF teammates.

Let's make this simple for you. Russell had 71 FULL seasons from his HOF teammates. With the recent addition of Walker to the HOF, Wilt had 27.

Meschery and All-Star? 16 ppg, 9.8 rpg, .425 shooting in 64 games. BTW, it was his ONLY "All-Star" season...

Rodgers? The WORST shooter in NBA HISTORY (compared to league average.) He even had a season of .347 shooting in a league that only shot .446. Had he just PASSED the ball in his career, he might have won more. Instead, he tried to match Wilt's scoring, and ...

Gola a "HOFer?" I guess if KC Jones is in the HOF, Gola has a case as well. The REALITY was, though, that he was a career 13 ppg, 8 rpg, .430 shooter, who may very well have been the WORST post-season shooter (at least by a "HOFer") in NBA history (whether with, or without Wilt.) In his last two post-seasons with Chamberlain, he shot .271 and .206 (once again, he was just as bad earlier in his post-seasob career, too...without Wilt.)

Baylor in '71 and '72? Go head and look up his games played in those two seasons, as well as his post-season play, and get back to me.

[LamarOdom]

I was actually waiting for some pictures to load up:lol

[Deuce Bigalow]

Let's make this simple for you. Russell had 71 FULL seasons from his HOF teammates. With the recent addition of Walker to the HOF, Wilt had 27.

Meschery and All-Star? 16 ppg, 9.8 rpg, .425 shooting in 64 games. BTW, it was his ONLY "All-Star" season...

Rodgers? The WORST shooter in NBA HISTORY (compared to league average.) He even had a season of .347 shooting in a league that only shot .446. Had he just PASSED the ball in his career, he might have won more. Instead, he tried to match Wilt's scoring, and ...

Gola a "HOFer?" I guess if KC Jones is in the HOF, Gola has a case as well. The REALITY was, though, that he was a career 13 ppg, 8 rpg, .430 shooter, who may very well have been the WORST post-season shooter (at least by a "HOFer") in NBA history (whether with, or without Wilt.) In his last two post-seasons with Chamberlain, he shot .271 and .206 (once again, he was just as bad earlier in his post-seasob career, too...without Wilt.)

Baylor in '71 and '72? Go head and look up his games played in those two seasons, as well as his post-season play, and get back to me.
Wilt had at least 2 HOF teammeates 12/14 SEASONS OF HIS CAREER.
He had a HOF teammate EVERY SEASON of his career.

[ThunderStruk022]

:roll: :roll: :oldlol:

What, you didn't know that the only reason Wilt didn't dominate even more is because the league was always trying to keep him down?

[jlauber]

Wilt had at least 2 HOF teammeates 12/14 SEASONS OF HIS CAREER.
He had a HOF teammate EVERY SEASON of his career.

How many did Russell have EVERY season?

How many did Reed have from '68 on?

Chamberlain had to go thru those teams every season, except in '71, when he was without both West and Baylor, and had to battle a 66-16 Bucks team with Oscar and a prime Kareem.

[jlauber]

What, you didn't know that the only reason Wilt didn't dominate even more is because the league was always trying to keep him down?

Do some research and get back to me on the "anti-WILT" RULES that were put in place BECAUSE of Wilt.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many did Russell have EVERY season?

How many did Reed have from '68 on?

Chamberlain had to go thru those teams every season, except in '71, when he was without both West and Baylor, and had to battle a 66-16 Bucks team with Oscar and a prime Kareem.
Chamberlain was busy "carrying garbage players to within eyelashes of winning game 7s"
He was carrying his garbage 2-3 HOFers and some All-Star teammates.

[jlauber]

Chamberlain was busy "carrying garbage players to within eyelashes of winning game 7s"
He was carrying his garbage 2-3 HOFers and some All-Star teammates

How good were the Warriors BEFORE Chamberlain arrived? Yep...LAST PLACE.

How good were the Sixers BEFORE Chamberlain arrived? 21-20 and the year before, 34-46.

[ThunderStruk022]

I was actually waiting for some pictures to load up:lol

Here's a few, and these are to signify some things Wilt couldn't do. But man, if he could have, he'd probably have finished his career with 13 or 14 rings.

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/2813944_f520.jpg

http://freethinkers4kenya.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/jesus_20lazarus_20raised.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QI8WUAwPm3Q/T_RR9zo0mmI/AAAAAAAAAR4/d9bg9FruguM/s1600/water-to-wine.jpg

jlauber, if you do have documentation of Wilt walking on water, raising the dead, and/or turning water into wine, I apologize for being wrong.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wilt was within eyelashes of having 6-7 rings, but his garbage teammates choked so he ended up with 2.

[jlauber]

Here's a few, and these are to signify some things Wilt couldn't do. But man, if he could have, he'd probably have finished his career with 13 or 14 rings.

http://s1.hubimg.com/u/2813944_f520.jpg

http://freethinkers4kenya.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/jesus_20lazarus_20raised.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QI8WUAwPm3Q/T_RR9zo0mmI/AAAAAAAAAR4/d9bg9FruguM/s1600/water-to-wine.jpg

jlauber, if you do have documentation of Wilt walking of water, raising the dead, and/or turning water into wine, I apologize for being wrong.

Like the "Wilt-bashers" always do to Wilt...

Where's the VIDEO FOOTAGE of all of those events?

[millwad]

All the spam about Wilt's "horrible" teammates and all the spam about Wilt's crazy competition and then you follow up that with some research and you'll find out this..

Wilt in '67 when he won his first ring faced a 39 win team in the first round, a less talented Boston team than Wilt's own team and a 44 win team in the finals..

And then you go and check out what Wilt's teammates were averaging in the '67 playoffs:

Hal Greer - 27.7 points, 5.3 assists and 5.9 rebounds
Chet Walker - 21.7 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.1 assists
Wali Jones - 17.5 points, 2.8 rebounds and 4.1 assists
Billy Cunningham - 15 points, 6.2 rebounds and 2.2 assists
Luke Jackson -11 points, 11.7 rebounds and 2 assists


BUT BUT BUT... WILT NEVER HAD ANY HELP!?

[Deuce Bigalow]

Like the "Wilt-bashers" always do to Wilt...

Where's the VIDEO FOOTAGE of all of those events?
The "Wilt-bashers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHJuifYlbY

:roll:

[jlauber]

All the spam about Wilt's "horrible" teammates and all the spam about Wilt's crazy competition and then you follow up that with some research and you'll find out this..

Wilt in '67 when he won his first ring faced a 39 win team in the first round, a less talented Boston team than Wilt's own team and a 44 win team in the finals..

And then you go and check out what Wilt's teammates were averaging in the '67 playoffs:

Hal Greer - 27.7 points, 5.3 assists and 5.9 rebounds
Chet Walker - 21.7 points, 7.6 rebounds and 2.1 assists
Wali Jones - 17.5 points, 2.8 rebounds and 4.1 assists
Billy Cunningham - 15 points, 6.2 rebounds and 2.2 assists
Luke Jackson -11 points, 11.7 rebounds and 2 assists


BUT BUT BUT... WILT NEVER HAD ANY HELP!?


Oh, and they WON a dominating world title, with Chamberlain destroying Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond in that post-season run.

He FINALLY has a roster EQUAL to Russell's (but not nearly as DEEP), and the result? A title for the ages.

How did the Sixers do before and after Wilt BTW?

[Horatio33]

K.C. Jones was 7, 4 and 3 guy for his career, HOF.
Frank Ramsey's career averages are 13 and 5, and he never averaged more than 15.6 ppg, HOF
Clyde Lovellette averaged 6 and 2 while with Russell's Celtics, HOF
Arnie Risen averaged 7 and 6.5 in 2 years with the Russell. HOF

Not all the Celtics in the HOF are Havliceks, Heinsohns and Cousys.

[millwad]

And poor Wilt had no help in '72 either..

After all, Wilt had only following guys in the playoffs who carried the team on the offensive end while Wilt went back to being a 4th option..

Wilt's teammates stats in the playoffs of '72;

Gail Goodrich - 23.8 points, 4.3 assists and 2.5 rebounds
Jerry West - 22.9 points, 8.9 assists and 4.9 rebounds
Jim McMillan - 19.1 points, 5.7 rebounds and 1.5 assists
Happy Hairston - 13.5 points, 13.1 rebounds and 2.1 assists

We hear all this nonsense from Jlauber about Wilt not having worthless teammates but then he is the same guy who a freaking ring in '72 with HOF:ers and 3 guys who averaged more than 19 points per game in the playoffs.. :facepalm

[millwad]

Oh, and they WON a dominating world title, with Chamberlain destroying Dierking, Russell, and Thurmond in that post-season run.

He FINALLY has a roster EQUAL to Russell's (but not nearly as DEEP), and the result? A title for the ages.

How did the Sixers do before and after Wilt BTW?

Dierking had the series of his life vs Wilt, he averaged 17.5 points and 13 rebounds on Wilt and he played for a 39 win team.

Russell was 32 years old and his teammates were worse than Chamberlain's, no doubt, and Thurmond played for a 44 win team and they still managed to win 2 games.. :facepalm

When was the last time a team won a NBA championship by only having to play 3 series where two of the teams didn't even manage to win 45 games..

[jlauber]

Wilt was within eyelashes of having 6-7 rings, but his garbage teammates choked so he ended up with 2.

Heavily outgunned every season...

Lost four game seven's to the eventual champion, and HOF-laden Celtics by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. He also lost 4-2 in the '60 ECF's with what had been a LAST PLACE roster, to a 59-16 Celtic team. And he also lost to the Celtic team that had an 8-2 edge in HOFers in the '64 Finals.

BTW, he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY one of them...some by HUGE margins.

[SourPatchKids]

And poor Wilt had no help in '72 either..

After all, Wilt had only following guys in the playoffs who carried the team on the offensive end while Wilt went back to being a 4th option..

Wilt's teammates stats in the playoffs of '72;

Gail Goodrich - 23.8 points, 4.3 assists and 2.5 rebounds
Jerry West - 22.9 points, 8.9 assists and 4.9 rebounds
Jim McMillan - 19.1 points, 5.7 rebounds and 1.5 assists
Happy Hairston - 13.5 points, 13.1 rebounds and 2.1 assists

We hear all this nonsense from Jlauber about Wilt not having worthless teammates but then he is the same guy who a freaking ring in '72 with HOF:ers and 3 guys who averaged more than 19 points per game in the playoffs.. :facepalm
:applause:

[millwad]

Heavily outgunned every season...

Lost four game seven's to the eventual champion, and HOF-laden Celtics by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. He also lost 4-2 in the '60 ECF's with what had been a LAST PLACE roster, to a 59-16 Celtic team. And he also lost to the Celtic team that had an 8-2 edge in HOFers in the '64 Finals.

BTW, he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY one of them...some by HUGE margins.

Which only proves that empty stats is not enough, it's not a surprise that Wilt actually won when he wasn't putting up his prime stat numbers.

He won while he was a tied 2nd option in '67 and a fourth option in '72, it says it all.

[ThunderStruk022]

The "Wilt-bashers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHJuifYlbY

:roll:

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wait, are there really threads where people proved he was getting information from Youtube comments and Yahoo answers?

I knew he had inexplicably done a complete 180 on his Wilt views but hadn't seen that other stuff.

[swi7ch]

His weakness is he scored 100 pts. He should have stopped at 80 because according to ISH, 81 pts is better than 100 pts. So going by that logic, 80 is better than 81.

[millwad]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Wait, are there really threads where people proved he was getting information from Youtube comments and Yahoo answers?

I knew he had inexplicably done a complete 180 on his Wilt views but hadn't seen that other stuff.

Yeah, once he "wrote" a post about all the tall players Wilt faced and when I corrected him about all the mistakes the list had he told us that he got it from a Yahoo-forum comment. The list mentioned players Wilt never faced, guy's who still were in college, guys who never played in the NBA and ABA guys who never played in the NBA while Wilt played in the league.

And once he used CavaliersFTW's mistyped comment as a source about Wilt blocking 20 skyhooks. It was so embarrassing and I still have the PM from CavaliersFTW in my inbox where he totally bashed Jlauber for being such a clown for using his mistyped youtube-comment as source, but I won't post it because CavaliersFTW is a good guy.

Although if you ask him I'm sure he'll tell the exact same thing as above.

[ThunderStruk022]

K.C. Jones was 7, 4 and 3 guy for his career, HOF.
Frank Ramsey's career averages are 13 and 5, and he never averaged more than 15.6 ppg, HOF
Clyde Lovellette averaged 6 and 2 while with Russell's Celtics, HOF
Arnie Risen averaged 7 and 6.5 in 2 years with the Russell. HOF

Not all the Celtics in the HOF are Havliceks, Heinsohns and Cousys.

But what does jlauber say when people point out some of Russell's teammates were undeniably HOFers only because they were apart of the 60s Celtics dynasty?

I mean a 7-4-3 career guy...how can you say that is a legit HOFer? I don't care if he had the best intangibles in the world. Or a guy with career averages of 13-5 and career high of less than 16 ppg? Sounds legit to me!

But don't you know...you aren't allowed to disparage Russell's HOF teammates. That kind of stuff only applies when talking about Wilt's HOF teammates.

[millwad]

The "Wilt-bashers"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmHJuifYlbY

:roll:

CavaliersFTW made that video, he got a great sense of humour, haha..
I like the guy.

[Gotterdammerung]

Love the predictable shouting match between trolls and Wilt fanboys. :oldlol:

Fault?
Golaith complex in which Wilt tried to prove he was a great basketball player due to reasons OTHER than his size or height or strength. In other words, he tried to shoot fadeaways for 7 years before Alex Hannum instructed him to quit shooting them because they took him out of rebounding position.

Shaq did not suffer from this complex. He took full advantage of his gifts, and overpowered every center in his path.

Weaknesses?


FT shooting - it was all mental. You couldn't pass him the ball at the end of the game cuz he would get fouled and embarrass himself on the line in the clutch.

Outside shooting - Wilt actually could hit 15 foot jumpers earlier in his career, but that disappeared later on.

Bad hands - you couldn't throw him a bullet pass because they were often swollen, fractured, or just no damn good by the end of the season.


But none of them stopped him from averaging 30 and 23 per game. :yaohappy:

[millwad]

But what does jlauber say when people point out some of Russell's teammates were undeniably HOFers only because they were apart of the 60s Celtics dynasty?

I mean a 7-4-3 career guy...how can you say that is a legit HOFer? I don't care if he had the best intangibles in the world. Or a guy with career averages of 13-5 and career high of less than 16 ppg? Sounds legit to me!

But don't you know...you aren't allowed to disparage Russell's HOF teammates. That kind of stuff only applies when talking about Wilt's HOF teammates.

He only mentions Russell having a certain amount HOF:ers and that they were more HOF:ers than what Wilt had around him. He got this fetisch around HOF:ers, he overlook who they actually are, he just says that Russell had so many more HOF:ers and that's why he won.. :facepalm

[ThunderStruk022]

Yeah, once he "wrote" a post about all the tall players Wilt faced and when I corrected him about all the mistakes the list had he told us that he got it from a Yahoo-forum comment. The list mentioned players Wilt never faced, guy's who still were in college, guys who never played in the NBA and ABA guys who never played in the NBA while Wilt played in the league.

And once he used CavaliersFTW's mistyped comment as a source about Wilt blocking 20 skyhooks. It was so embarrassing and I still have the PM from CavaliersFTW in my inbox where he totally bashed Jlauber for being such a clown for using his mistyped youtube-comment as source, but I won't post it because CavaliersFTW is a good guy.

Although if you ask him I'm sure he'll tell the exact same thing as above.

I've seen other credible posters call jlauber out for changing his information and/or "facts" about specifics, so I believe you. I think he's figured out if he hides small subtle changes after being proven wrong behind a massive wall of text and random capitalized words, most posters won't catch it.

[ThunderStruk022]

He only mentions Russell having a certain amount HOF:ers and that they were more HOF:ers than what Wilt had around him. He got this fetisch around HOF:ers, he overlook who they actually are, he just says that Russell had so many more HOF:ers and that's why he won.. :facepalm

Well sure, that, and Russell was just a better winner than Wilt and understood team and winning basketball better than Wilt.

But there's the HOF teammates thing too...I guess.

[jlauber]

Dierking had the series of his life vs Wilt, he averaged 17.5 points and 13 rebounds on Wilt and he played for a 39 win team.

Russell was 32 years old and his teammates were worse than Chamberlain's, no doubt, and Thurmond played for a 44 win team and they still managed to win 2 games.. :facepalm

Yep. Dierking held Chamberlain to a 28 ppg, 27 rpg, 11 apg, .612 series in which Wilt put up a 41 point game...which was the Sixers HIGH BTW.

Russell's teammates worse than Wilt's? A Prime Havlicek? Who averaged 27.4 ppg that post-season? Sam Jones? Who averaged 26.7 ppg in the playoffs? Then players like Bailey Howell who had averaged 20 ppg on .512 shooting in the regular season. Larry Siegfried and his 14 ppg. Sanders, who was premier defender, and had a 10 ppg season. KC Jones, who was considered among the best defenders of his era. Don Nelson, Wayne Embry, Jim Barnett...all quality players. All-in-all...a 60-21 team.

The Warriors? HOFers Thurmond and Barry, and in their greatest seasons. Then add players like Mullins and Hetzel, who would both become 20+ scorers within a couple of seasons (and 19 and 18 scorers the very next season), as well as veteran Tom Meschery and PG Clyde Lee, who was among the best rebounders in the league per minute played.

BTW, that LOADED Warrior team went 44-37 that season. Interesting that Chamberlain, with Meschery as his second best player, and rookie part-timer Thurmond, and a cast of clowns, went 48-32 in the '64 season.

[ThunderStruk022]

Yep. Dierking held Chamberlain to a 28 ppg, 27 rpg, 11 apg, .612 series in which Wilt put up a 41 point game...which was the Sixers HIGH BTW.

Russell's teammates worse than Wilt's? A Prime Havlicek? Who averaged 27.4 ppg that post-season? Sam Jones? Who averaged 26.7 ppg in the playoffs? Then players like Bailey Howell who had averaged 20 ppg on .512 shooting in the regular season. Larry Siegfried and his 14 ppg. Sanders, who was premier defender, and had a 10 ppg season. KC Jones, who was considered among the best defenders of his era. Don Nelson, Wayne Embry, Jim Barnett...all quality players. All-in-all...a 60-21 team.

The Warriors? HOFers Thurmond and Barry, and in their greatest seasons. Then add players like Mullins and Hetzel, who would both become 20+ scorers within a couple of seasons (and 19 and 18 scorers the very next season), as well as veteran Tom Meschery and PG Clyde Lee, who was among the best rebounders in the league per minute played.

BTW, that LOADED Warrior team went 44-37 that season. Interesting that Chamberlain, with Meschery as his second best player, and rookie part-timer Thurmond, and a cast of clowns, went 48-32 in the '64 season.

So it's ok to say that kind of stuff about the players Wilt went against, but when talking about Wilt's HOF teammates, it's only the "here and now" that mattered?

[jlauber]

But what does jlauber say when people point out some of Russell's teammates were undeniably HOFers only because they were apart of the 60s Celtics dynasty?

I mean a 7-4-3 career guy...how can you say that is a legit HOFer? I don't care if he had the best intangibles in the world. Or a guy with career averages of 13-5 and career high of less than 16 ppg? Sounds legit to me!

But don't you know...you aren't allowed to disparage Russell's HOF teammates. That kind of stuff only applies when talking about Wilt's HOF teammates.

Let's put this ridiculous assertion to rest, shall we? How many of Wilt's teammates, in his Warrior seasons, EVER averaged 20 ppg in a season, whether with Wilt, or without him? This does not include Thurmond, who was a partimer behind Wilt, nor Naulls, who was washed up with Wilt and played WORSE with Russell.

ONE player...Arizin.

How about Russell. He had MULTIPLE teammates that had MULTIPLE seasons of 20+ ppg. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Havlicek. Jones had seasons as high as 26 ppg, and post-seasons as high as 29 ppg with Russell. Havlicek had several 20 ppg with Russell, and then exploded AFTER him.

Russell had an OVEWHELMING edge in surrounding talent.

BTW, how much did Russell ELEVATE the play of Clyde Lovellette? Lovelette averaged 20 ppg the season before he joined Russell, and on .471 shooting. WITH Russell... 6.5 ppg on .428 shooting.

[ThunderStruk022]

Let's put this ridiculous assertion to rest, shall we? How many of Wilt's teammates, in his Warrior seasons, EVER averaged 20 ppg in a season, whether with Wilt, or without him? This does not include Thurmond, who was a partimer behind Wilt, nor Naulls, who was washed up with Wilt and played WORSE with Russell.

ONE player...Arizin.

How about Russell. He had MULTIPLE teammates that had MULTIPLE seasons of 20+ ppg. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Havlicek. Jones had seasons as high as 26 ppg, and post-seasons as high as 29 ppg with Russell. Havlicek had several 20 ppg with Russell, and then exploded AFTER him.

Russell had an OVEWHELMING edge in surrounding talent.

BTW, how much did Russell ELEVATE the play of Clyde Lovellette? Lovelette averaged 20 ppg the season before he joined Russell, and on .471 shooting. WITH Russell... 6.5 ppg on .428 shooting.

Just because you capitalize it doesn't make it true. He might have had an edge, but I'm starting to think all this "OVERWHELMING" nonsense is you trying to fabricate and manipulate information to make it seem true.

And Russell was so detrimental to Lovellette that they only managed to win the championship his first year in Boston. I'm sure Lovellette's decline in scoring had everything to do with how bad of a teammate Russell was, and virtually nothing to do with him being older and in his second to last season.

[jlauber]

Yeah, once he "wrote" a post about all the tall players Wilt faced and when I corrected him about all the mistakes the list had he told us that he got it from a Yahoo-forum comment. The list mentioned players Wilt never faced, guy's who still were in college, guys who never played in the NBA and ABA guys who never played in the NBA while Wilt played in the league.

And once he used CavaliersFTW's mistyped comment as a source about Wilt blocking 20 skyhooks. It was so embarrassing and I still have the PM from CavaliersFTW in my inbox where he totally bashed Jlauber for being such a clown for using his mistyped youtube-comment as source, but I won't post it because CavaliersFTW is a good guy.

Although if you ask him I'm sure he'll tell the exact same thing as above.

I did cite a quick yahoo repsonse. Then, when this idiot challenged that, I came up with a list of considerably MORE players. And, they had been measured in shoes, Chamberlain would have faced a plethora of 7-0 footers in his career.

As for CavsFan...he didn't "mistype" that comment. He flat out lied about it. You don't "mistype" it in a post in which you claim that he blocked 23 shots. So what? We KNOW that Chamberlain blocked TWO of Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks within a FEW SECONDS. Why? Because when he challenged me on it, I produced VIDEO footage of it. As for his other blocks...Chamberlain had a KNOWN 30 blocks on Kareem in just SEVEN of their 28 H2H games. He also had a KNOWN 15 blocks in just THREE games against Kareem in the '72 WCF's. I suppose that Kareem was shooting jumpers though, right?

Of course, when it comes to LYING, the clown Dickwad takes the cake. He vehemently denied that Hakeem guarded Kareem in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons. What did I do? I presented a full video (since removed...although the highlight video still exists), in which Kareem, guarded exclusively by Hakeem, poured in 40 points, on 16-24 against him. THEN, thanks to PHILA, I produced a newspaper RECAP, of a game in which Fitch was ripped for allowing Hakeem to get murdered by Kareem in a game in which Kareem dumped 46 points on his, and in only 37 minutes, and on 21-30 shooting.

He challenged MY take that Gilmore averaged 26 ppg on .666 shooting in six games against the Rockets in '85. Which, of course, I did.

He challenged my take that TEAMMATE Barkley outrebounded Hakeem by over FOUR per game one season. Guess what? He did.

He challenged my take that Gus Johnson had a vertical that matched MJ's. Then he challenged my take in which I had used Joey Johnson as an example. Guess what...Joey Johnson had a KNOWN 48" vertical, and was KNOWN to have put his chin on the rim.

I could go on...but this guy is a complete liar.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Heavily outgunned every season...

Lost four game seven's to the eventual champion, and HOF-laden Celtics by margins of 2, 1, 4, and 2 points. He also lost 4-2 in the '60 ECF's with what had been a LAST PLACE roster, to a 59-16 Celtic team. And he also lost to the Celtic team that had an 8-2 edge in HOFers in the '64 Finals.

BTW, he outscored, outrebounded, and outshot Russell in EVERY one of them...some by HUGE margins.
Yeah I know about those close margin loses

His FT shooting in those Game 7s:

Wilt in Game 7s
'70 Finals, Game 7: 1-11
'69 Finals, Game 7: 4-13 ...(2 point loss)
'68 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-15 ...(4 point loss)
'65 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-13 ...(1 point loss)
'64 Div Semifinals, Game 7: 1-6
'62 Divisional Finals, Game 7: 8-9

Total: 26-67, 38.8%

[jlauber]

Just because you capitalize it doesn't make it true. He might have had an edge, but I'm starting to think all this "OVERWHELMING" nonsense is you trying to fabricate and manipulate information to make it seem true.

And Russell was so detrimental to Lovellette that they only managed to win the championship his first year in Boston. I'm sure Lovellette's decline in scoring had everything to do with how bad of a teammate Russell was, and virtually nothing to do with him being older and in his second to last season.

My point about Lovellette was this. It was brought up that he was a 6 ppg 2 rpg player WITH Russell. Just the season before he was a 20 ppg scorer, 9 rpg, .471 player. He was NOT some scrub on the bench.

[Djahjaga]

My point about Lovellette was this. It was brought up that he was a 6 ppg 2 rpg player WITH Russell. Just the season before he was a 20 ppg scorer, 9 rpg, .471 player. He was NOT some scrub on the bench.

So it seems like you value ability, rather than stats. What would you say if I told you that the reason Wilt's teammates played like dick in the playoffs (after having respectable seasons) was because of Wilt himself?

You always bring up that Wilt's teammates shot a combined (whatever percentage) in the series against (whatever team), but you overlook the fact that they were good players that were performing poorly for a reason. That reason has been said to have been Wilt's ball domination.

[millwad]

Yep. Dierking held Chamberlain to a 28 ppg, 27 rpg, 11 apg, .612 series in which Wilt put up a 41 point game...which was the Sixers HIGH BTW.


Not the point, the point is that Dierking had his best playoff-series ever BY far against Wilt, he both scored more (with better FG%), rebounded more and dished out more rocks and he was a 6'9 stiff.



Russell's teammates worse than Wilt's? A Prime Havlicek? Who averaged 27.4 ppg that post-season? Sam Jones? Who averaged 26.7 ppg in the playoffs? Then players like Bailey Howell who had averaged 20 ppg on .512 shooting in the regular season. Larry Siegfried and his 14 ppg. Sanders, who was premier defender, and had a 10 ppg season. KC Jones, who was considered among the best defenders of his era. Don Nelson, Wayne Embry, Jim Barnett...all quality players. All-in-all...a 60-21 team.


Not at all as good as Wilt's teammates, Wilt had 4 teammates in the playoffs who averaged more 15 points or more per game compared to Russell's 3 and overall Wilt had the better guys around him.

KC Jones was a 34 year old who averaged 6 points (on 32% shooting), 3 rebounds and 5 assists and who played the last year of his careeer. Don Nelson's 7 points, 5 rebounds and 1 assists in the playoffs are GOAT-like. Wayne Embry played 38 minutes in the playoffs that season.

And FINALLY, the amamzing quality player Jim Barnett played 26 minutes in total in the '67 playoffs and he averaged 2.8 points (28% shooting), 0.8 rebounds and 0.2 assists.. Even the fact that you mentioned him makes you an instant retard.




The Warriors? HOFers Thurmond and Barry, and in their greatest seasons. Then add players like Mullins and Hetzel, who would both become 20+ scorers within a couple of seasons (and 19 and 18 scorers the very next season), as well as veteran Tom Meschery and PG Clyde Lee, who was among the best rebounders in the league per minute played.


Oh, so when it's about Wilt's competition you mention stuff about them later in their career becoming good scorer, why don't you ever do that when it comes to Wilt? You've bashed so many of his teammates when they are brought up because they weren't in their primes but obviously they count when you try to hype up players from a 44 win team.. :facepalm

And yeah, hype up Hetzel some more, after all, he averaged 9.5 points (38% shooting) and grabbed 7 rebounds and dished out 2 assists, haha..

Oh, Tom Meschery, the player you've bashed a million times when he played with Wilt is suddenly becomes a fully decent veteran.

And Clyde Lee? How desperate are you really? He was 22 years old and played 11 minutes per game in the playoffs where he averaged 4.9 rebounds..

[Deuce Bigalow]

Jlauber uses the excuse that he only won 2 rings because he had to face the Celtic dynasty.

In 1969, Bob Cousy was long RETIRED, Bill Russell and Sam Jones were in their LAST SEASON.
The Celtics did not even win 50 games. The Lakers won 55 games, meaning they had Home Court Advantage over the Celtics in the NBA Finals. Wilt had Jerry West not only in his prime that year, but at his absolute PEAK.
Celtics still won the Championship

Wilt had 2 HOF teammates:
Jerry West (At his Peak)
Elgin Baylor

Russell had 3 HOF teammates:
John Havlicek
Sam Jones (Last season)
Bailey Howell

Jerry West was arguably the best player in the league, so we can all agree he was better than any Celtic player.

I already know Jlauber has an essay of excuses. But it's all bullshit.

[jlauber]

Yeah I know about those close margin loses

His FT shooting in those Game 7s:

Wilt in Game 7s
'70 Finals, Game 7: 1-11
'69 Finals, Game 7: 4-13 ...(2 point loss)
'68 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-15 ...(4 point loss)
'65 Div Finals, Game 7: 6-13 ...(1 point loss)
'64 Div Semifinals, Game 7: 1-6
'62 Divisional Finals, Game 7: 8-9

Total: 26-67, 38.8%

Now, post his points, rebounds, and FG%'s in those games, as well as those of his opposing center.

How about your boy Kobe's FG%'s in his Finals, (and blowout playoff losses)?

How about Bird's playoff FG%'s, and especially his Finals?

How about Kareem's horrible FG% shooting in several of his post-season series? Even with heavily-favored teams.

You point out a 4-13 FT shooting game, in which Chamberlain outscored Russell, 18-6; outshot Russell, 7-8 to 2-7; outrebounded Russell, 27-21; and outscored Russell from the line, 4-2.

Game seven of the '65 ECF's? How about Wilt's 12-15 from the floor? How about him holding Russell to 7-16 shooting?

In fact, let's take a close look at the '65 ECF's, shall we? Chamberlain took his 40-40 76ers to a game seven, one point loss, against Russell's 62-18 Celtics, in a series in which he outscored Russell, per game, 30.1 ppg to 15.6 ppg; outrebounded Russell, per game, 31.4 rpg, to 25.2 rpg; outshot Russell from the floor, .555 to .447; and even outshot Russell from the LINE, .583 to .472 (and outscoring Russell from the line by a 49-18 margin in that series.)

[Owl]

So it seems like you value ability, rather than stats. What would you say if I told you that the reason Wilt's teammates played like dick in the playoffs (after having respectable seasons) was because of Wilt himself?

You always bring up that Wilt's teammates shot a combined (whatever percentage) in the series against (whatever team), but you overlook the fact that they were good players that were performing poorly for a reason. That reason has been said to have been Wilt's ball domination.
If Wilt was detrimental by ball hogging and this negative effect took place in playoff series, then Wilt demonstrably must have been hogging the ball more in the playoffs for this logic to stand. So which are these years in which Wilt was increasing his number of shots (per game) in the playoffs?

[ThunderStruk022]

My point about Lovellette was this. It was brought up that he was a 6 ppg 2 rpg player WITH Russell. Just the season before he was a 20 ppg scorer, 9 rpg, .471 player. He was NOT some scrub on the bench.

Again, what does that have to do with the "here and now"? Why does that only apply to Wilt's teammates and not Russell's or any of Wilt's other competition?

[jlauber]

Jlauber uses the excuse that he only won 2 rings because he had to face the Celtic dynasty.

In 1969, Bob Cousy was long RETIRED, Bill Russell and Sam Jones were in their LAST SEASON.
The Celtics did not even win 50 games. The Lakers won 55 games, meaning they had Home Court Advantage over the Celtics in the NBA Finals. Wilt had Jerry Wet not only in his prime that year, but at his absolute PEAK.
Celtics still won the Championship

Wilt had 2 HOF teammates:
Jerry West (At his Peak)
Elgin Baylor

Russell had 3 HOF teammates:
John Havlicek
Sam Jones (Last season)
Bailey Howell

Jerry West was arguably the best player in the league, so we can all agree he was better than any Celtic player.

I already know Jlauber has an essay of excuses. But it's all bullshit.

Baylor in the 69 Finals.

In game three, a six point loss, Baylor shoots 4-14. BTW, he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter.

Game four, a ONE point loss. Baylor not only shoots a ghastly 2-14 from the field, he also shoots 1-6 from the LINE.

Game seven, a two point loss. Baylor shoots 8-22 from the field (and Wilt's teammates collectively shoot .360 from the floor in that game...while Wilt shot .875 from the floor.)

[Owl]

Jlauber uses the excuse that he only won 2 rings because he had to face the Celtic dynasty.

In 1969, Bob Cousy was long RETIRED, Bill Russell and Sam Jones were in their LAST SEASON.
The Celtics did not even win 50 games. The Lakers won 55 games, meaning they had Home Court Advantage over the Celtics in the NBA Finals. Wilt had Jerry Wet not only in his prime that year, but at his absolute PEAK.
Celtics still won the Championship

Wilt had 2 HOF teammates:
Jerry West (At his Peak)
Elgin Baylor

Russell had 3 HOF teammates:
John Havlicek
Sam Jones (Last season)
Bailey Howell

Jerry West was arguably the best player in the league, so we can all agree he was better than any Celtic player.

I already know Jlauber has an essay of excuses. But it's all bullshit.
Tom "Satch" Sanders will dissapointed that you revoked his entry to the Hall of Fame.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Tom "Satch" Sanders will dissapointed that you revoked his entry to the Hall of Fame.
Inducted as Contributor in 2011

[DatAsh]

Let's put this ridiculous assertion to rest, shall we? How many of Wilt's teammates, in his Warrior seasons, EVER averaged 20 ppg in a season, whether with Wilt, or without him? This does not include Thurmond, who was a partimer behind Wilt, nor Naulls, who was washed up with Wilt and played WORSE with Russell.

ONE player...Arizin.

How about Russell. He had MULTIPLE teammates that had MULTIPLE seasons of 20+ ppg. Cousy, Heinsohn, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Havlicek. Jones had seasons as high as 26 ppg, and post-seasons as high as 29 ppg with Russell. Havlicek had several 20 ppg with Russell, and then exploded AFTER him.

Russell had an OVEWHELMING edge in surrounding talent.

BTW, how much did Russell ELEVATE the play of Clyde Lovellette? Lovelette averaged 20 ppg the season before he joined Russell, and on .471 shooting. WITH Russell... 6.5 ppg on .428 shooting.

How many of Russell's 20ppg teammates could average 20 ppg on Wilt's team? They'd be taking much less shots playing with Wilt.

[jlauber]

Again, what does that have to do with the "here and now"? Why does that only apply to Wilt's teammates and not Russell's or any of Wilt's other competition?

Give me a list of qualified 20 ppg scorers that were on Wilt's bench in his Warrior seasons.

And once again, don't bring up Naulls. He was washed up before Wilt, and played WORSE with Russell.

NONE.

Meanwhile, Russell had a PLETHORA of capable 20+ ppg scorers on his team.

How about this? In Russell's rookie season, Boston went 28-20 WITH him. WithOUT him, they went 16-8.

The Celtics BEFORE Russell? 39-33. Then they not only get Russell in '57, but they also draft Heinsohn. TWO HOFers. Then, the very next season, they draft Sam Jones. Later they draft John Havlicek.

How about Wilt?

He came to a LAST PLACE Warrior team...and in which the roster would get older and WORSE while he was there.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Baylor in the 69 Finals.

In game three, a six point loss, Baylor shoots 4-14. BTW, he and West combined to shoot 1-14 from the field in the 4th quarter.

Game four, a ONE point loss. Baylor not only shoots a ghastly 2-14 from the field, he also shoots 1-6 from the LINE.

Game seven, a two point loss. Baylor shoots 8-22 from the field (and Wilt's teammates collectively shoot .360 from the floor in that game...while Wilt shot .875 from the floor.)
Cool story

Wilt had the best player on his team, the best team, and HCA vs the Celtics. Still lost.

And no you didn't just say this...

Game four, a ONE point loss. Baylor not only shoots a ghastly 2-14 from the field, he also shoots 1-6 from the LINE.

Game seven, a two point loss. Baylor shoots 8-22 from the field (and Wilt's teammates collectively shoot .360 from the floor in that game
:roll: :roll: :roll:

Game 4 - 1 POINT LOSS: Wilt shot 2-11 FT
Game 7 - 2 POINT LOSS: Wilt shot 4-13 FT

****ing hypocrite :facepalm

[Owl]

Inducted as Contributor in 2011
And your point is what?

Oh wait you said


Russell had 3 HOF teammates (and by HOF I mean Hall of Fame inductions as a player, specifically a player, not players who got in as contributors based largely on their playing career, but specifically player based inductions:
John Havlicek
Sam Jones (Last season)
Bailey Howell

Oh, wait no, you didn't.

If you wanted to go after Jlauber in a legitimate manner you'd point out that Lovelette was unlikely to be affected by Russell as he played primarily at center and so was unlikely to have taken to the court with him. But go with your trolling line which retroactively removes players from the Hall of Fame.

[millwad]

I did cite a quick yahoo repsonse. Then, when this idiot challenged that, I came up with a list of considerably MORE players. And, they had been measured in shoes, Chamberlain would have faced a plethora of 7-0 footers in his career.

No, that wasn't the case, you copied a yahoo comment that had plenty of lies in it and of course you didn't bother to fix it 'til you got called out for it.

There were a handful of players on that list who never even faced Wilt and you used it as a source.



As for CavsFan...he didn't "mistype" that comment. He flat out lied about it. You don't "mistype" it in a post in which you claim that he blocked 23 shots. So what? We KNOW that Chamberlain blocked TWO of Kareem's "unblockable" skyhooks within a FEW SECONDS. Why? Because when he challenged me on it, I produced VIDEO footage of it. As for his other blocks...Chamberlain had a KNOWN 30 blocks on Kareem in just SEVEN of their 28 H2H games. He also had a KNOWN 15 blocks in just THREE games against Kareem in the '72 WCF's. I suppose that Kareem was shooting jumpers though, right?


Cavsfan told me personally that you copied his comment and used it as a source and that you didn't even know that he was Cavsfan because you got it from his youtube-channel where he used another nick.

And it doesn't matter, you use any source possible as long as they hype up Wilt.

Later when you got called out for it you wrote nonsense about how you "remember" Wilt blocking 20 skyhooks because you saw the series 40 years ago.. :facepalm



Of course, when it comes to LYING, the clown Dickwad takes the cake. He vehemently denied that Hakeem guarded Kareem in the 84-85 and 85-86 seasons. What did I do? I presented a full video (since removed...although the highlight video still exists), in which Kareem, guarded exclusively by Hakeem, poured in 40 points, on 16-24 against him. THEN, thanks to PHILA, I produced a newspaper RECAP, of a game in which Fitch was ripped for allowing Hakeem to get murdered by Kareem in a game in which Kareem dumped 46 points on his, and in only 37 minutes, and on 21-30 shooting.


How cute, as soon as you get confronted you try to turn the table.

I pointed out that I was wrong about Hakeem not guarding Kareem in meaningless regular season games in his rookie and 2nd year pro season.



He challenged MY take that Gilmore averaged 26 ppg on .666 shooting in six games against the Rockets in '85. Which, of course, I did.


I challenged you, do you know what that means?
You know why, because you didn't even post the stats 'til I asked you for it and considering what kind of sources you use I have no trust in anything you write. Wanting actual sources is not something strange, maybe in your world considering that you use CavsFTW's youtube-comments as sources.. :facepalm



He challenged my take that TEAMMATE Barkley outrebounded Hakeem by over FOUR per game one season. Guess what? He did.


I can't believe that you are still using this, we misunderstood each other and the fact that you still try to use that crap only shows that you have NOTHING to come with. Go back and watch the thread.. :facepalm



He challenged my take that Gus Johnson had a vertical that matched MJ's. Then he challenged my take in which I had used Joey Johnson as an example. Guess what...Joey Johnson had a KNOWN 48" vertical, and was KNOWN to have put his chin on the rim.


No, I didn't challenge shit about Gus Johnson having the vertical that matched MJ's, you wrote crap about him having some 50 inch vertical crap which you "proved" with some quote by someone. And then you wrote that Joey Johnson touched the top of the backboard which I still don't believe. Again you're lying about what I've said.



I could go on...but this guy is a complete liar.

Jlauber, you've been gagged like Pam thousands of times regarding your lies on this board, you're considered to be a clown.

Even Wilt-fans mock you..

[jlauber]

How many of Russell's 20ppg teammates could average 20 ppg on Wilt's team? They'd be taking much less shots playing with Wilt.

Not the point. Wilt didn't have ANY that were CAPABLE of scoring 20 ppg in his Warrior seasons. Russell had Heinsohn, Cousy, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Havlicek.

Once again, the Warrior team that Wilt inherited was a LAST PLACE team just the year before he arrived. That roster would get WORSE each year.

Russell joined a 39-33 playoff team, that also added Tom Heinsohn at the same time (Russell did replace McCauley.) Then, the very next year they added Sam Jones. Later, John Havlicek. And so it goes. They plugged in HOFers, while Wilt's rosters deteriorated.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And your point is what?

Oh wait you said

Oh, wait no, you didn't.

If you wanted to go after Jlauber in a legitimate manner you'd point out that Lovelette was unlikely to be affected by Russell as he played primarily at center and so was unlikely to have taken to the court with him. But go with your trolling line which retroactively removes players from the Hall of Fame.
1st of how am I trollling?
I'm giving facts.

I posted players that got to the HOF as a player. So what are you trying to say?

[DatAsh]

Tom "Satch" Sanders will dissapointed that you revoked his entry to the Hall of Fame.

The HOFs argument is a silly one to begin with, as is the teammate ppg argument. Players winning 6+ championships under their belts get voted into HOF much easier than other possibly better players who weren't so fortunate. Likewise, playing with Wilt is going to lower you ppg more than playing with Russell so using that as a measure of supporting cast is flawed as well.

The best way to go about it is to just go year by year and analyze it within the context at the time. Doing that, it's clear that Russell was surrounded with better talent for about the first 6 years. After that, it gets a bit closer and Wilt even had the better supporting cast for 2-3 years.

[millwad]

Not the point. Wilt didn't have ANY that were CAPABLE of scoring 20 ppg in his Warrior seasons. Russell had Heinsohn, Cousy, Sharman, Sam Jones, and Havlicek.


Too bad that Wilt even had a 20+ scoring teammate in Arizin in his rookie season.. :facepalm

And too bad that Arizin scored 20+ the following season too, even in Wilt's statpadding '62 season Arizin scored more than 20 points per game.

[jlauber]

The HOFs argument is a silly one to begin with, as is the teammate ppg argument. Players winning 6+ championships under their belts get voted into HOF much easier than other possibly better players who weren't so fortunate. Likewise, playing with Wilt is going to lower you ppg more than playing with Russell so using that as a measure of supporting cast is flawed as well.

The best way to go about it is to just go year by year and analyze it within the context at the time. Doing that, it's clear that Russell was surrounded with better talent for about the first 6 years. After that, it gets a bit closer and Wilt even had the better supporting cast for 2-3 years.

Wilt had marginally better supporting casts in '67 and '68. They won a dominating world title in '67. And the '68 Sixer team that ran away with the best record in the regular season, was nowhere near the same team that lost a close game seven to the Celtics in the ECF's. Even without Cunningham, the Sixers were up 3-1 against Boston. BUT, both Luke Jackson and Wali Jones suffered injuries in game five, and were worthless the rest of the series. And, Chamberlain was injured himself, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game two on.

'69 is questionable. The Lakers had ZERO depth, thanks to the trade for Chamberlain, and the expansion loss of Goodrich (who was the best player by far taken in that draft.) They also had a COACH who allowed Egan to handle the ball in the waning seconds of a game four, one point loss, and who benched Wilt in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss (while his replacement Mel Counts shot 4-13 in that game.) Oh, and Baylor single handedly cost LA THREE games in that series.

[jlauber]

Too bad that Wilt even had a 20+ scoring teammate in Arizin in his rookie season.. :facepalm

And too bad that Arizin scored 20+ the following season too, even in Wilt's statpadding '62 season Arizin scored more than 20 points per game.

Was Arizin coming off the bench, like Havlicek? And, if you had read the original point, it was that Lovellette was coming off the BENCH, and just the year before, he had scored 20 ppg.


Give me a list of qualified 20 ppg scorers that were on Wilt's bench in his Warrior seasons.

And once again, don't bring up Naulls. He was washed up before Wilt, and played WORSE with Russell.

NONE.

Meanwhile, Russell had a PLETHORA of capable 20+ ppg scorers on his team.

How about this? In Russell's rookie season, Boston went 28-20 WITH him. WithOUT him, they went 16-8.

The Celtics BEFORE Russell? 39-33. Then they not only get Russell in '57, but they also draft Heinsohn. TWO HOFers. Then, the very next season, they draft Sam Jones. Later they draft John Havlicek.

How about Wilt?

He came to a LAST PLACE Warrior team...and in which the roster would get older and WORSE while he was there.

And I already mentioned him earlier, as the ONLY Warrior teammate that Wilt EVER had that had a 20 ppg season in their careers. Russell played with a TON that had MULTIPLE 20 ppg seasons.

:facepalm :facepalm

[DatAsh]

Wilt had marginally better supporting casts in '67 and '68. They won a dominating world title in '67. And the '68 Sixer team that ran away with the best record in the regular season, was nowhere near the same team that lost a close game seven to the Celtics in the ECF's. Even without Cunningham, the Sixers were up 3-1 against Boston. BUT, both Luke Jackson and Wali Jones suffered injuries in game five, and were worthless the rest of the series. And, Chamberlain was injured himself, and was NOTICEABLY LIMPING from game two on.

'69 is questionable. The Lakers had ZERO depth, thanks to the trade for Chamberlain, and the expansion loss of Goodrich (who was the best player by far taken in that draft.) They also had a COACH who allowed Egan to handle the ball in the waning seconds of a game four, one point loss, and who benched Wilt in the last five minutes of a game seven, two point loss (while his replacement Mel Counts shot 4-13 in that game.) Oh, and Baylor single handedly cost LA THREE games in that series.

I give Wilt's supporting cast a marginal edge in 3 of those years, but from 66-69 it was fairly close and I wouldn't argue too much with your assessment here.

[DatAsh]

And I already mentioned him earlier, as the ONLY Warrior teammate that Wilt EVER had that had a 20 ppg season in their careers. Russell played with a TON that had MULTIPLE 20 ppg seasons.

:facepalm :facepalm

Again, a flawed argument for reasons I've mentioned above.

[jlauber]

I give Wilt supporting cast a marginal edge in 3 of those years, but from 66-69 it was fairly close and I wouldn't argue too much with your assessment here.

Well, if the Lakers would have had almost anyone else coaching them in '69, I think they had enough talent to win the title. But, Baylor should have been relegated to a lessor role. Instead, we got Van Breda Kolf, and this famous comment, "When we pass the ball into Wilt, he will score. But it is an ugly offense to watch."

As it was, they were still ONE PLAY away from winning that series, 4-1.

[jlauber]

Again, a flawed argument for reasons I've mentioned above.

No, it's not flawed. Players like Meschery, Rodgers, Attles, Gola, et. al,...NONE of them EVER had a 20 ppg season, whether it was WITH Chamberlain, or at other times in their careers. They were all, at best, ROLE players, and none of them ever proved they could carry an offense.

[jlauber]

Again, a flawed argument for reasons I've mentioned above.

Let me ask you this?

Swap rosters in Wilt's first six seasons, and how many rings do Russell and Wilt win? Keep in mind that Wilt did whatever his coach's asked him to do (albeit, at times reluctantly.)

Do you think Russell takes the '63 Warriors to a title against a Boston team with Chamberlain and EIGHT other HOFers?

[poido123]

Let me ask you this?

Swap rosters in Wilt's first six seasons, and how many rings do Russell and Wilt win? Keep in mind that Wilt did whatever his coach's asked him to do (albeit, at times reluctantly.)

Do you think Russell takes the '63 Warriors to a title against a Boston team with Chamberlain and EIGHT other HOFers?

Don't you think your obsession with Wilt is a little unhealthy?

Why do you try so hard to convince complete strangers on an internet forum about Wilt? Is it going to enhance your life in any way or give you some kind of financial reward? Give it a rest dude.

[DatAsh]

No, it's not flawed. Players like Meschery, Rodgers, Attles, Gola, et. al,...NONE of them EVER had a 20 ppg season, whether it was WITH Chamberlain, or at other times in their careers. They were all, at best, ROLE players, and none of them ever proved they could carry an offense.

Just because your point is valid in this particular case doesn't mean the argument isn't flawed. Sam Jones probably wouldn't average 20 ppg playing with Wilt, but that doesn't make him any less of a player, it just means he's taking less shots because he happens to be playing with another great scorer in Wilt.