Jordans, Kobes and Lebrons averages in "Win or go home/Must win" games:

[pauk]

I was very interested in finding this out, so I ventured out towards basketball-reference and started calculating, this thread works more like a showcase of these results, assuming maybe more would like to know how they fared there and compared to eachother...

These are the playoff games during any series where their backs were against the wall on the verge of getting eliminated, where the series is literally on the line, "WIN OR GO HOME" games...

I wanted to include some more perimeter players like Bird, Julius, West, Magic and so on but their full boxscores of all these games behind 1985-86 are impossible to find...

LEBRON JAMES- 11 "win or go home" games (4 wins, 7 losses)

PTS - 31.5 @ 46.0% FG
RBS - 10.3
ASTS - 6.7

BEST GAME - 45 pts, 15 rbs, 5 asts, 73.1% FG vs Celtics 2012 win
WORST GAME - 24 pts, 6 rbs, 10 asts, 33.3% FG vs Spurs 2007

MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 30.4 @ 45.9% FG
RBS - 8.0
ASTS - 6.8

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win
WORST GAME - 19 pts, 10 rbs, 9 asts, 44.4% FG vs Celtics 1986 (hey, had to post something...)

KOBE BRYANT - 18 "win or go home" games (7 wins, 11 losses)

PTS - 22.6 @ 41.0% FG
RBS - 5.9
ASTS - 3.8

When he started:
PTS - 24.3 @ 41.1% FG
RBS - 6.5
ASTS - 4.1

BEST GAME - 31 pts, 11 rbs, 5 asts, 50.0% FG vs Kings 2002 win (or the 42-5-0 @ 54.5% FG game 5 against OKC this year, but he losed that one with 16 pts)
WORST GAME - 6 pts, 1 rbs, 1 asts vs UTAH 1997
WORST AS STARTER - 17 pts, 3 rbs, 1 asts, 38.8% FG vs MAVS 2011

KEVIN DURANT - 4 "win or go home" games (1 win, 3 losses)

PTS - 30.0 @ 42.3% FG
RBS - 8.8
ASTS - 2.3

BEST GAME - 39 pts, 9 rbs, 2 asts, 52% FG vs Grizzlies 2011 WCSF win
WORST GAME - 26 pts, 9 rbs, 2 asts, 21.7% FG vs Lakers 2010 1st round

DWYANE WADE - 10 "win or go home" games (3 wins, 7 losses)

PTS - 27.3 @ 45.3% FG
RBS - 4.8
ASTS - 5.6

BEST GAME - 46 pts, 5 rbs, 5 asts, 66.6% FG vs Celtics 2010 1st round win
WORST GAME - 17 pts, 8 rbs, 6 asts, 37% FG vs Mavs 2011 Finals



edit: recalculated Jordans stats, made 1 error, adding more players to

[NUPE_1911]

I was very interested in finding this out, so I ventured out towards basketball-reference and started calculating, this thread works more like a showcase of these results, assuming maybe more would like to know how they fared there and compared to eachother...

These are the playoff games during any series where their backs were against the wall on the verge of getting eliminated, where the series is literally on the line, "WIN OR GO HOME" games...

I wanted to include some more players like Bird, Julius, West and so on but their full boxscores of all these games behind 1985-86 are impossible to find...

LEBRON JAMES- 11 "win or go home" games (4 wins, 7 losses)

PTS - 31.5 @ 46.0% FG
RBS - 10.3
ASTS - 6.7

BEST GAME - 45 pts, 15 rbs, 5 asts, 73.1% FG vs Celtics 2012 win
WORST GAME - 24 pts, 6 rbs, 10 asts, 33.3% FG vs Spurs 2007

MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 29.5 @ 45.6% FG
RBS - 7.9
ASTS - 6.9

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win
WORST GAME - 10 pts, 14 rbs, 5 asts, 50% FG vs Pistons 1990

KOBE BRYANT - 18 "win or go home" games (7 wins, 11 losses)

PTS - 22.6 @ 41.0% FG
RBS - 5.9
ASTS - 3.8

When he started:
PTS - 24.3 @ 41.1% FG
RBS - 6.5
ASTS - 4.1

BEST GAME - 31 pts, 11 rbs, 5 asts, 50.0% FG vs Kings 2002 win
WORST GAME - 6 pts, 1 rbs, 1 asts vs UTAH 1997
WORST AS STARTER - 17 pts, 3 rbs, 1 asts, 38.8% FG vs MAVS 2011

Kobe lost.... :roll:

[tmacattack33]

I like the way you color coded it.

[andgar923]

I like the way you color coded it.

that was thoughtful.

Thanks Pauk.

[BEAST Griffin]

Surprised by Lebron compared to Jordan. Not surprised by Kobe.

[The Iron Fist]

Post their records in the finals now.

[Zedja]

Not as bad as I thought it would be.

[sundizz]

Do Kobe's first two years really count though for elimination games? He was just thrown in as a scapegoat by Del Harris that rookie year. Additionally, his minutes were so few compared to his usual that it isn't really indicative of his impact or ability. Just saying?

[Hands of Iron]

Eh, prime is all that really matters.

[tmacattack33]

Do Kobe's first two years really count though for elimination games? He was just thrown in as a scapegoat by Del Harris that rookie year. Additionally, his minutes were so few compared to his usual that it isn't really indicative of his impact or ability. Just saying?

Yeah, Pauk should maybe remove 97' and 98' games. That wouldn't really change the FG% and efficiency stats though. It would change the other categories slightly.

[pauk]

Do Kobe's first two years really count though for elimination games? He was just thrown in as a scapegoat by Del Harris that rookie year. Additionally, his minutes were so few compared to his usual that it isn't really indicative of his impact or ability. Just saying?

I wouldnt count it, he was not a starter. But i included it anyways just because he played in them, thats why i included also the results from when he was only a starter, that i would count....

Its kindof difficult with Kobe, he had like 4 stages in his career....

1. The benchwarmer
2. The 6th man
3. The starting 2nd option
4. The leader/best player in his team

So i mean i will have to remove those first 3 stages to compare his "win or go home" results (or actually any stats whatsoever) with Jordan & Lebron, these guys were on that #4 stage their entire career so its easy... :)

[Deuce Bigalow]

Kobe's relatively good in his elimination games - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275566

2000-12, Non-blowout games

[NUPE_1911]

Surprised by Lebron compared to Jordan. Not surprised by Kobe.

You should take into consideration the type of defense teams and players were allowed to play in the 90's versus today.

[Young X]

MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 29.5 @ 45.6% FG
RBS - 7.9
ASTS - 6.9

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win
WORST GAME - 10 pts, 14 rbs, 5 asts, 50% FG vs Pistons 1990
Jordan had 31 pts, 9 assists, and 8 rebounds in that game 7, where did you get those numbers from?

[pauk]

Kobe's relatively good in his elimination games - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275566

2000-12, Non-blowout games

Absolutely!

[The Iron Fist]

MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 29.5 @ 45.6% FG
RBS - 7.9
ASTS - 6.9

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win
WORST GAME - 10 pts, 14 rbs, 5 asts, 50% FG vs Pistons 1990
Jordan had 31 pts, 9 assists, and 8 rebounds in that game 7, where did you get those numbers from?
He's got a habit of making things up, a notorious one.

[raid09]

Kobe's relatively good in his elimination games - http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=275566

2000-12, Non-blowout games

I understand not counting the early years. What's the purpose of not counting blowout games?

[Dave3]

Jordan had 31 pts, 9 assists, and 8 rebounds in that game 7, where did you get those numbers from?
He's referring to game 6 (which was a win or go home because Chicago was down 3-2) but he read Horace Grant's line (his statline is just above Jordan's in the boxscore).

Still better than using players of the months to argue LeBron over Big O though :lol

[pauk]

MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 29.5 @ 45.6% FG
RBS - 7.9
ASTS - 6.9

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win
WORST GAME - 10 pts, 14 rbs, 5 asts, 50% FG vs Pistons 1990
Jordan had 31 pts, 9 assists, and 8 rebounds in that game 7, where did you get those numbers from?

Oh god i screwed up on that one, it was actually Game 6 (detroit was leading 3-2) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006010CHI.html

and i was looking at Horace Grants numbers, Jordan had actually 29-10-6 @ 55% FG that game! My bad, thanks Young X.

Will fix that immediately.

[pauk]

Still better than using players of the months to argue LeBron over Big O though :lol

I never did that, you only wished that was my intention... there is a big difference...

[pauk]

He's got a habit of making things up, a notorious one.

Oh really? Can you please give me just ONE example...

[Dave3]

I never did that, you only wished that was my intention... there is a big difference...
You didn't do that? So you didn't list all the awards of the two players and included a row for players of the month awards in which you gave LeBron 20 and wrote 0 for Oscar Robertson? That was all my imagination?

[Dictator]

I never did that, you only wished that was my intention... there is a big difference...


You definitely tried to argue that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

I understand not counting the early years. What's the purpose of not counting blowout games?
Once the game gets out of hand, are the stats the same as a regular game?

[Dave3]

You definitely tried to argue that.
And got called out for it, and then defended himself about it, and then eventually said "fine, I guess you're right" then did it again in the next thread. :facepalm

[The Iron Fist]

Oh really? Can you please give me just ONE example...
MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 29.5 @ 45.6% FG RBS - 7.9 ASTS - 6.9

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win WORST GAME - 10 pts, 14 rbs, 5 asts, 50% FG vs Pistons 1990

[Young X]

Oh god i screwed up on that one, it was actually Game 6 (detroit was leading 3-2) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006010CHI.html

and i was looking at Horace Grants numbers, Jordan had actually 29-10-6 @ 55% FG that game! My bad, thanks Young X.

Will fix that immediately.
It's all good.:cheers:

[pauk]

You didn't do that? So you didn't list all the awards of the two players and included a row for players of the month awards in which you gave LeBron 20 and wrote 0 for Oscar Robertson? That was all my imagination?

Like i said in that thread (which you apparently didnt see) i included ALL awards on the sheet, POTM (which is an award, hardware, trophy) and DPOY got included to naturally.... i copy/paste that sheet when comparing awards next to other players (who most likely have been in a era where DPOY/POTM/FMVP did exist).... I understood the misunderstanding myself so i told everybody to forget about POTM/DPOY completely.... problem solved...

Understand? My intention was NOT like you are trying to say "catapult Lebron over Oscar" using something as POTM or DPOY, even tho it was included, how stupid do you think i am? My intention was to compare everything else fair and square and that "everything else" catapulted Lebron over Oscar anyways....... now if you have something against that, fine... its not like my fault Lebron accomplished all that... :)

[NumberSix]

Typical Kobetard's thoughts:


"OH NO!!! NOT FACTS!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!!!"

[TheeBeast]

Typical Kobetard's thoughts:


"OH NO!!! NOT FACTS!!! ANYTHING BUT THAT!!!"

Typical NumberSix post... :lol

[The Iron Fist]

Like i said in that thread (which you apparently didnt see) i included ALL awards on the sheet, POTM (which is an award, hardware, trophy) and DPOY got included to naturally.... i copy/paste that sheet when comparing awards next to other players (who most likely have been in a era where DPOY/POTM/FMVP did exist).... I understood the misunderstanding myself so i told everybody to forget about POTM/DPOY completely.... problem solved...

Understand? My intention was NOT like you are trying to say "catapult Lebron over Oscar" using something as POTM or DPOY, even tho it was included, how stupid do you think i am? My intention was to compare everything else fair and square and that "everything else" catapulted Lebron over Oscar anyways....... now if you have something against that, fine... its not like my fault Lebron accomplished all that... :)
Extremely effing, and the board agrees.

[Dave3]

Like i said in that thread (which you apparently didnt see) i included ALL awards on the sheet, POTM (which is an award, hardware, trophy) Wasn't awarded in the era of the other players, so why include it?
and DPOY got included to naturally.... i copy/paste that sheet when comparing awards next to other players (who most likely have been in a era where DPOY/POTM/FMVP did exist).... I understood the misunderstanding myself so i told everybody to forget about POTM/DPOY completely.... problem solved... Then you included it again in the next thread. And you argued like you had a point. You had zero point at all.



Understand? My intention was NOT like you are trying to say "catapult Lebron over Oscar" using something as POTM or DPOY, even tho it was included, how stupid do you think i am?Then why even include it? Why include an award that another player isn't even eligible for? It's like arguing Melo is a better player than LeBron because he won an NCAA championship. If anyone ever said that you'd go bananas. The fact that you included it alone would make someone think you're quite stupid actually. I don't like to make judgements, but speaking generally, one would think you're very stupid just by including them.

[juju151111]

Oh god i screwed up on that one, it was actually Game 6 (detroit was leading 3-2) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006010CHI.html

and i was looking at Horace Grants numbers, Jordan had actually 29-10-6 @ 55% FG that game! My bad, thanks Young X.

Will fix that immediately.
Yea I was looking at that like wtf. Also did u include Mjs best of 3 series

[imdaman99]

Typical NumberSix post... :lol
hes got the perfect nickname once kobe wins #6 :lol

[juju151111]

Oh god i screwed up on that one, it was actually Game 6 (detroit was leading 3-2) - http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006010CHI.html

and i was looking at Horace Grants numbers, Jordan had actually 29-10-6 @ 55% FG that game! My bad, thanks Young X.

Will fix that immediately.
Did u calculate Mj avg with that 10 pt game? or is it fixed

[The Iron Fist]

Did u calculate Mj avg with that 10 pt game? or is it fixed
Its a fact. Ask Number Six.

[Lebron23]

One of the best threads in this forum in the last few days.

[funnystuff]

Extremely effing, and the board agrees.
Do you only put people down when something doesn't go your way? AKA Kobes way.

[BlackVVaves]

Pauk, what are your criteria for these elimination games? Games that are actually won, or simply performances by Lebron, Jordan, and Kobe where a loss sends them home, regardless of the outcome of those games?

[Dave3]

Pauk, what are your criteria for these elimination games? Games that are actually won, or simply performances by Lebron, Jordan, and Kobe where a loss sends them home, regardless of the outcome of those games?
The second one. He said it's win or go home, so that's what I interpret.

[pauk]

MICHAEL JORDAN - 11 "win or go home" games (5 wins, 6 losses)

PTS - 29.5 @ 45.6% FG RBS - 7.9 ASTS - 6.9

BEST GAME - 44 pts, 9 rbs, 6 asts, 53.1% FG vs Cavaliers 1989 win WORST GAME - 10 pts, 14 rbs, 5 asts, 50% FG vs Pistons 1990

Michael Jordan had 11 win or go home games and here are those 11 "win or go home" boxscores, games (calculate the stats yourself if you wish, its fairly easy) unless i missed something....
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198604220CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006010CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198805080CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198905070CLE.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198906020CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006010CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199006030DET.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199205170CHI.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199805310CHI.html


...and i explained above why the 10-14-5 statline was there, just a mistake made by me as i was looking/scrolling to quickly accidentaly looking at Grants numbers (who was right next to / above Jordan)... Its fixed, his stats recalculated, go back to top of the page and look, not much difference...


Care to give another example considering you said "He has a habit of making things up, a notorious one".... but please remember you are only digging a hole for yourself, i am only exposing yourself and what you are trying to do as a Lebron and Lebron fan hating Kobe stan....

[dbk123]

http://distilleryimage1.s3.amazonaws.com/3a3775a4c08011e180c9123138016265_7.jpg

[RRR3]

http://x.fap.to/images/thumb/42/149/1490898466.gif

[tmacattack33]

The second one. He said it's win or go home, so that's what I interpret.

Yeah.

In other words, "elimination" games.

Or "do or die" games.

[pauk]

Pauk, what are your criteria for these elimination games? Games that are actually won, or simply performances by Lebron, Jordan, and Kobe where a loss sends them home, regardless of the outcome of those games?

The latter, win or go home games regardless of the outcome of those games.

I can calculate their stats of the "only win" ones to.. just gimme a minute. :)

[BlackVVaves]

The second one. He said it's win or go home, so that's what I interpret.

Is this true Pauk? If so, are you sure you truly used each elimination game for each player's calculations?

For instance, since it was fairly recent, it's easy to remember Bron's monster Game 6 against Boston this year. Anytime a player drops 40+ points on incredibly high efficiency on the road, it really exhibits that player's will and individual greatness.


Similarly, because of it's recency, it's easy to recall Kobe's Game 5 performance against OKC this past postseason. 42 points, 5 rebounds, 2 steals. On 55% shooting. He had 0 assists, though that was more indicative of his teammates' horrid offensive performance, than his unwillingness to pass the ball. Outside of Kobe, his team shot 38% from the field that game.

Yet, I noticed you didn't include that performance in the portion highlighted "best game," so I wonder if you included it in your calculations? If not, I also wonder if you missed other games for Lebron or Jordan?

[LakersFan626]

I knew this would favor LeBron when I saw who started this.

FG% is not the rule for saying which player is better than the other.

[RaininTwos]

Post their records in the finals now.
This makes you that salty?

[BlackVVaves]

I knew this would favor LeBron when I saw who started this.

FG% is not the rule for saying which player is better than the other.

It's not, but efficiency in context is certainly important when comparing player's overall, or performances. Context - such as the ratio of dunks to jumpshots/layups, or 2 pointers to 3 pointers, type of defense being faced, ect - is just as important when assessing, but at the end of the day you cannot discredit a player for getting two points on a layup just because he didn't get them on a jump shot.

Now, if you're comparing skills, such as jump shots, or difficulty of shots, that's another story.

[The Iron Fist]

This makes you that salty?
He cant m

[JaggerCommaMick]

Post their records in the finals now.


They don't have records in the finals, mate, only teams are assigned a win or a loss at the end of games, not individuals.

Of course if you're trying to prop Kobe up ahead of Lebron, or essentially anyone in the top 20, you'll typically have to rely on team achievements since he otherwise won't compare.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They don't have records in the finals, mate, only teams are assigned a win or a loss at the end of games, not individuals.

Of course if you're trying to prop Kobe up ahead of Lebron, or essentially anyone in the top 20, you'll typically have to rely on team achievements since he otherwise won't compare.

You do realize that Kobe is likely going to finish with the most all nba and all defensive team awards of all time right?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Why do I get the feeling that Kobe faced much tougher defenses in this data set than Jordan (no D era) and Lebron (Eastern conference is weak)?

[EnoughSaid]

Why do I get the feeling that Kobe faced much tougher defenses in this data set than Jordan (no D era) and Lebron (Eastern conference is weak)?

Whaaaaaaaaat?! LeBron had to play the Pistons (GOAT defensive team) and the Celtics, and Magic in 09.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Whaaaaaaaaat?! LeBron had to play the Pistons (GOAT defensive team) and the Celtics, and Magic in 09.

2005 Pistons <<<<< 2004 Pistons

Celtics and Magic were money Ds and Id bet his games against them were below average among the data used.

[riseagainst]

To be honest, I'm a little surprised at Kobe's. I thought it was gonna be a little worse.

[BEAST Griffin]

Why do I get the feeling that Kobe faced much tougher defenses in this data set than Jordan (no D era) and Lebron (Eastern conference is weak)?

Eastern conference playoff teams have been better defensively than Western conference playoff teams.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Eastern conference playoff teams have been better defensively than Western conference playoff teams.

I seriously doubt it.

[JaggerCommaMick]

You do realize that Kobe is likely going to finish with the most all nba and all defensive team awards of all time right?


Oh stop, mate. Those are token awards that lazy, ignorant sports writers give to whoevers name comes to mind first in their head. If you give credence to such things, you are essentially saying that other people think for you. If you really think Kobe was ever the best defensive shooting guard, let alone year after year, you would have to have been dropped on your head and held back multiple times in grade school. Guys like Thabo Sefalosha and Tony Allen never have a chance at first team, because lazy dumb members of the press feel obligated to stick a superstar in there.

Remember Kobe's lone "MVP award"? The one he received when every non-Laker fan/stan was in agreement that it was a 'lifetime achievement' award and he was not actually the most valuable player that season? You're gonna tell me he gets some kind of 'credit' as MVP that year when everyone knows he wasn't actually the most valuable player?


If you can verbalize an argument, mate, based on style of play and statistics, that puts Kobe ahead of Lebron, or essentially any other generally recognized top 20 player, I'll be happy to acknowledge it, mate. But me own personal analysis says that's damn near impossible. And I have nothing against Kobe. Only the people who overrate him, really, because I find ignorance very incensing.

[Zedja]

Oh stop, mate. Those are token awards that lazy, ignorant sports writers give to whoevers name comes to mind first in their head. If you give credence to such things, you are essentially saying that other people think for you.

Remember Kobe's lone "MVP award"? The one he received when every non-Laker fan/stan was in agreement that it was a 'lifetime achievement' award and he was not actually the most valuable player that season? You're gonna tell me he gets some kind of 'credit' as MVP that year when everyone knows he wasn't actually the most valuable player?


If you can verbalize an argument, mate, based on style of play and statistics, that puts Kobe ahead of Lebron, or essentially any other generally recognized top 20 player, I'll be happy to acknowledge it, mate. But me own personal analysis says that's damn near impossible. And I have nothing against Kobe. Only the people who overrate him, really, because I find ignorance very incensing.
Please just shut the **** up mate.

[JaggerCommaMick]

Please just shut the **** up mate.


Bugger off, wanker.

[riseagainst]

Bugger off, wanker.

:oldlol:

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Oh stop, mate. Those are token awards that lazy, ignorant sports writers give to whoevers name comes to mind first in their head. If you give credence to such things, you are essentially saying that other people think for you.

Remember Kobe's lone "MVP award"? The one he received when every non-Laker fan/stan was in agreement that it was a 'lifetime achievement' award and he was not actually the most valuable player that season? You're gonna tell me he gets some kind of 'credit' as MVP that year when everyone knows he wasn't actually the most valuable player?


If you can verbalize an argument, mate, based on style of play and statistics, that puts Kobe ahead of Lebron, or essentially any other generally recognized top 20 player, I'll be happy to acknowledge it, mate. But me own personal analysis says that's damn near impossible. And I have nothing against Kobe. Only the people who overrate him, really, because I find ignorance very incensing.

Yeah man I give credence to NBA coaches and writers who cover the sport for a living. Kobe's MVP award was consistent with its voting history since its inception. Be a leading scorer on a great team and don't get injured is good for the MVP most of the time. I don't see any evidence of a vast pro Kobe conspiracy enacted to make him look like a legendary player. :confusedshrug:

What exactly do you think the generally recognized top 20 players are based on if not team and individual accolades? PER? Win Shares?

[magictricked]

Oh stop, mate. Those are token awards that lazy, ignorant sports writers Coaches. Coaches give those out. Which means the rest of your post is based on a total lack of knowledge of the sport and not worth the time it took you to type it out.

[magictricked]

Please just shut the **** up mate.
Well said, Checkmate?

[Zedja]

Bugger off, wanker.
Make me mate.

[JaggerCommaMick]

Coaches. Coaches give those out. Which means the rest of your post is based on a total lack of knowledge of the sport and not worth the time it took you to type it out.



The All-NBA Teams were chosen by a panel of 120 sportswriters and broadcasters throughout the United States and Canada. The media voted for All-NBA First, Second and Third Teams by position with points awarded on a 5-3-1 basis.


http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/24/all-NBA-teams/index.html


Kill yourself.

[KOBE143]

Who gives a **** in all this shit made by pauk..

This is all that matters..

http://i.imgur.com/XvFMH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fYQKv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bq8s8.png

[Zedja]

Kill yourself.
Mate.

[talkingconch]

what the hell is with these nitpick stats?

[Duncan21formvp]

MJ in Elimation Games

1985 1st Rd vs Milwaukee Game 4
29 pts (?? fgs), 7 rebs, 5 asts LOST

1986 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
19 pts (8-17 fgs), 10 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1987 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
30 pts (8-22 fgs), 11 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1988 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
39 pts (12-20 fgs), 4 rebs, 6 asts WON

1988 ECSF vs Detroit Game 5
25 pts (10-22 fgs), 8 rebs, 8 asts LOST

1989 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
44 pts (17-33 fgs), 9 rebs, 6 asts WON

1989 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
32 pts (13-25 fgs), 4 rebs, 13 asts LOST

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
29 pts (10-19 fgs), 10 rebs, 2 asts WON

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 7
31 pts (13-27 fgs), 8 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1992 ECSF vs New York Game 7
42 pts (15-29 fgs), 6 rebs, 4 asts WON

1995 ECSF vs Orlando Game 6
24 pts (8-19 fgs), 9 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1998 ECF vs Indiana Game 7
28 pts (9-25 fgs), 9 rebs, 8 asts WON



29 7 5
19 10 9 8 17
30 11 7 8 22
39 4 6 12 20
25 8 8 10 22
44 9 6 17 33
32 4 13 13 25
29 10 2 10 19
31 8 9 13 27
42 6 4 15 29
24 9 7 8 19
28 9 8 9 25
31.00000 7.916666667 7 123 258 0.476744186

[LakersReign]

Oh stop, mate. Those are token awards that lazy, ignorant sports writers give to whoevers name comes to mind first in their head. If you give credence to such things, you are essentially saying that other people think for you.

So....when Kobe gets All Defensive Team nods, it's cuz those awards are supposedly "token" awards. But when Lebron gets his name thrown around for DPOY, even though he rarely plays REAL defense, it's supposedly....not.....going to be a "token" award....then....right? GTFOH:roll:

[magictricked]

Kill yourself.


The NBA All-Defensive Second Team consists of guards Rajon Rondo of the Boston Celtics and Kobe Bryant of the Los Angeles Lakers, center Tyson Chandler of the New York Knicks, and forwards Luol Deng of the Chicago Bulls and Kevin Garnett of the Boston Celtics.
The voting panel consisted of the NBA's 30 head coaches, who were asked to select NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams by position. Coaches were not permitted to vote for players from their own team. Two points were awarded for a First Team vote and one point was awarded for a Second Team vote.http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/nba-all-defensive-team-2011-2012/index.html


You first

[funnystuff]

Why do I get the feeling that Kobe faced much tougher defenses in this data set than Jordan (no D era) and Lebron (Eastern conference is weak)?
Paaalease, Easter Conference has better defense than the West, and West has better offense than the East.

[KG215]

Why do I get the feeling that Kobe faced much tougher defenses in this data set than Jordan (no D era) and Lebron (Eastern conference is weak)?

Because you think DRtg is the be-all and end-all for judging how good a team was defensively.

I'm guessing this is the part where you tell us that, because of their DRtg's, the 2002 Kings were a better defensive team than the 1990 Pistons.

[coin24]

Pauk with another bullshit stat thread about Lebron... Awesome..
Keep your fapping fuel to yourself dipshit:facepalm

[BlackVVaves]

Pauk with another bullshit stat thread about Lebron... Awesome..
Keep your fapping fuel to yourself dipshit:facepalm

Threads about Bron, Kobe and Jordan, is it not?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because you think DRtg is the be-all and end-all for judging how good a team was defensively.

I'm guessing this is the part where you tell us that, because of their DRtg's, the 2002 Kings were a better defensive team than the 1990 Pistons.

If not defensive rating then ................

Regardless of what the statistical measure you favor the point remains that the level of defense of the teams is an obvious factor that should be accounted for. :confusedshrug:

[ripthekik]

Who gives a **** in all this shit made by pauk..

This is all that matters..

http://i.imgur.com/XvFMH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fYQKv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bq8s8.png
good shiiit my man :applause:

[tobethdope]

MJ in Elimation Games

1985 1st Rd vs Milwaukee Game 4
29 pts (?? fgs), 7 rebs, 5 asts LOST

1986 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
19 pts (8-17 fgs), 10 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1987 1st Rd vs Boston Game 3
30 pts (8-22 fgs), 11 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1988 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
39 pts (12-20 fgs), 4 rebs, 6 asts WON

1988 ECSF vs Detroit Game 5
25 pts (10-22 fgs), 8 rebs, 8 asts LOST

1989 1st Rd vs Cleveland Game 5
44 pts (17-33 fgs), 9 rebs, 6 asts WON

1989 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
32 pts (13-25 fgs), 4 rebs, 13 asts LOST

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 6
29 pts (10-19 fgs), 10 rebs, 2 asts WON

1990 ECF vs Detroit Game 7
31 pts (13-27 fgs), 8 rebs, 9 asts LOST

1992 ECSF vs New York Game 7
42 pts (15-29 fgs), 6 rebs, 4 asts WON

1995 ECSF vs Orlando Game 6
24 pts (8-19 fgs), 9 rebs, 7 asts LOST

1998 ECF vs Indiana Game 7
28 pts (9-25 fgs), 9 rebs, 8 asts WON



29 7 5
19 10 9 8 17
30 11 7 8 22
39 4 6 12 20
25 8 8 10 22
44 9 6 17 33
32 4 13 13 25
29 10 2 10 19
31 8 9 13 27
42 6 4 15 29
24 9 7 8 19
28 9 8 9 25
31.00000 7.916666667 7 123 258 0.476744186

pretty impressive that mj just had 3 elemination games after

[KG215]

If not defensive rating then ................

Regardless of what the statistical measure you favor the point remains that the level of defense of the teams is an obvious factor that should be accounted for. :confusedshrug:

Of course the defenses should be taken into consideration. I don't think it should be the final determinant in who had more success, though. And given your posting history, it's no secret you want to use DRtg to try and strengthen your argument that Kobe played against tougher and better defenses.

[DatAsh]

Because you think DRtg is the be-all and end-all for judging how good a team was defensively.

I'm guessing this is the part where you tell us that, because of their DRtg's, the 2002 Kings were a better defensive team than the 1990 Pistons.

DRtg is actually a pretty decent tool for comparing team defense within the same year. It's not very accurate and comparing defenses from one team in one year to another team in a different year, especially if those years are more than a couple years apart, but for single season comparisons, it's by far the best team defensive measurement stat available.

[KG215]

DRtg is actually a pretty decent tool for comparing team defense within the same year. It's not very accurate and comparing defenses from one team in one year to another team in a different year, especially if those years are more than a couple years apart, but for single season comparisons, it's by far the best team defensive measurement stat available.

I agree, but he uses it to try and say teams Kobe played against were better defensively than teams Jordan played against; or, in general, he uses it to compare teams from different eras.

[mehyaM24]

typical kobe. look at who mike and lebron face(dont just look at numbers). even defense has to be considered. you give Allen Iverson what kobe was given for years he would have been compared as well.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I agree, but he uses it to try and say teams Kobe played against were better defensively than teams Jordan played against; or, in general, he uses it to compare teams from different eras.

Once again its cool to compare offensive statistics from different era but wrong to compare defensive statistics from different eras. It's cool for Jordan to put up video game stats in an era of basketball where the entire league was relatively putting up video game stats but if I point that out I'm in the wrong.

::lol

[KG215]

Once again its cool to compare offensive statistics from different era but wrong to compare defensive statistics from different eras. It's cool for Jordan to put up video game stats in an era of basketball where the entire league was relatively putting up video game stats but if I point that out I'm in the wrong.

::lol

I don't think using an individual player's offensive stats is the same as using a stat that measures an entire team's defense.

Hell, your DRtg affinity could be justified, and you may be right; but you're the only one I see constantly using it. Of course, in most cases, it props up your Kobe agenda because, for whatever reasons, the vast majority of the teams from the 2000s have a better DRtg than the team's from Jordan's era, and that justifies in your mind that teams in the 2000s (the ones Kobe faced) were better defensive teams.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I don't think using an individual player's offensive stats is the same as using a stat that measures an entire team's defense.

Hell, your DRtg affinity could be justified, and you may be right; but you're the only one I see constantly using it. Of course, in most cases, it props up your Kobe agenda because, for whatever reasons, the vast majority of the teams from the 2000s have a better DRtg than the team's from Jordan's era, and that justifies in your mind that teams in the 2000s (the ones Kobe faced) were better defensive teams.

The reason why that is that defenses in Kobe's era were better at limiting points on a per possession basis over the course of the entire regular season. It's a simple truth. I don't know why other people don't ever point out the defenses being played against when posting offensive numbers but clearly it is a huge factor that should be addressed and I've been begging for anybody to point out a superior defensive statistic than defensive rating but it never happens. Instead of asking why I am pointing this out more than anyone you should ask why doesn't anybody else? Do they not think its easier to put up numbers against the 93 Suns than the 04 Pistons?

[DatAsh]

Once again its cool to compare offensive statistics from different era but wrong to compare defensive statistics from different eras. It's cool for Jordan to put up video game stats in an era of basketball where the entire league was relatively putting up video game stats but if I point that out I'm in the wrong.

::lol

It would be foolish to try and compare Ortg or Drtg across more than a couple of years and expect to get meaningful results. The reason it works within a single season is that all the teams are standing on common ground, they're playing against the same teams,at least to an extent, on a nightly basis which trends to level the playing field.

Comparing ORtg or DRtg across eras is almost impossible, and you can't really expect accurate results when doing so. Offensive and defensive structures change over the years, and there's really no way to determine whether or not a lower Drtg is due to an improving defense, or a declining offense.

The fact that the early 2000 Wizards have a better Drtg than the early 90s Bulls despite not even being in the same defensive class as those Bulls teams aught to hint at the fact that comparing the statistic across eras is inherently flawed.

[magictricked]

Defensive Rating isn't a bad stat. It works well cross eras because it takes possessions into the equation which is also factor in pace. You still have to look at it in context but it's a solid stat for getting research started.

You still need to dig deep and find what accounted for the defensive rating you're seeing but it's a decent blanket stat.
The problem comes not in it's use but how it's presented or received. If it's presented as an end all number then the conversation dies, if it's rebuffed as nonsense then the conversation dies.

It's a tool for fans willing to except it as a baseline to discovery

[LBJFTW]

Who gives a **** in all this shit made by pauk..

This is all that matters..

http://i.imgur.com/XvFMH.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/fYQKv.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/bq8s8.png

LOL. Just goes to show that it doesn't matter what lebron does in the future as this will always stand out.

Jordan = 6/6 finals apearances with 6 mvps in all of them.
Bron = 1/3 finals appearances.

Nothing to debate here.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

It would be foolish to try and compare Ortg or Drtg across more than a couple of years and expect to get meaningful results. The reason it works within a single season is that all the teams are standing on common ground, they're playing against the same teams,at least to an extent, on a nightly basis which trends to level the playing field.

Comparing ORtg or DRtg across eras is almost impossible, and you can't really expect accurate results when doing so. Offensive and defensive structures change over the years, and there's really no way to determine whether or not a lower Drtg is due to an improving defense, or a declining offense.

The fact that the early 2000 Wizards have a better Drtg than the early 90s Bulls despite not even being in the same defensive class as those Bulls teams aught to hint at the fact that comparing the statistic across eras is inherently flawed.

That's not true because by comparing the defensive ratings I am not saying Team X is a better defense than Team Y. I am saying the offensive performance Z is more impressive or less impressive given that Team X or Team Y allowed this level of scoring on a per possession basis for the entire season in that year.

Its not good enough to only look at their relative rankings within the year because what if the entire league is scoring easily or struggling to score. A great offensive performance against an average defensive team during a "dead ball" era of basketball is more impressive than an identically great offensive performance against an average defensive team during a "videogame" era of basketball

[pauk]

LOL. Just goes to show that it doesn't matter what lebron does in the future as this will always stand out.

Jordan = 6/6 finals apearances with 6 mvps in all of them.
Bron = 1/3 finals appearances.

Nothing to debate here.

Thats kindof a narrowminded way to look at it... Lebron had to make magic, pull a rabbit out of his rectum and have one of the greatest playoff series and games in playoffs history to get to his first Finals as a 21 year old with a team that was probably the worst team in NBA history to be in a Finals.... where as Jordan didnt get to a Finals until he was 28 years old due to finally having a great supporting cast...

Its only that 2011 Finals appearance you can attack from Lebron as he had a good supporting cast and he indeed individually underperformed there... there is a reason for that to (he played a new role, had new teammates, new offense, new chemistry, took extremly few shots and was way to passive/unselfish and so on), but thats no excuse... he underperformed by his standards...

One last thing, Lebron is 27 years old and had 3 Finals appearances, when MJ was 27 year old he had 0 Finals appearances... not trying to devaluate MJ here, its a team game, just making a more fair comparasant, i suggest we wait until Lebrons career is over until you can compare Lebron & MJ... right now its just disrespectful to MJ to compare his accomplishments to Lebron and very unfair to Lebron to compare him to MJ (as he indeed played many more seasons)...

[magictricked]

It would be foolish to try and compare Ortg or Drtg across more than a couple of years and expect to get meaningful results. The reason it works within a single season is that all the teams are standing on common ground, they're playing against the same teams,at least to an extent, on a nightly basis which trends to level the playing field.

Comparing ORtg or DRtg across eras is almost impossible, and you can't really expect accurate results when doing so. Offensive and defensive structures change over the years, and there's really no way to determine whether or not a lower Drtg is due to an improving defense, or a declining offense.

The fact that the early 2000 Wizards have a better Drtg than the early 90s Bulls despite not even being in the same defensive class as those Bulls teams aught to hint at the fact that comparing the statistic across eras is inherently flawed.Good post. Context, you have to look at the big picture, while their individual drtgs. might be close or similar the Wizards were usually rated near the bottom of the league while the Bulls with similar numbers were near the top of their era.

The 91 92 Bulls had a rating of 104.5 and were 4th in the league that year
The 02-03 Wizards had a rating of 104.1 (better) but were ranked 18th in the league

Does that mean the Wizards were a better defensive team? no

The league played at a faster pace in the Bulls season I quoted, so the Bulls held teams to the same number as the Wizards while playing in a time when teams had more possessions

[DatAsh]

That's not true because by comparing the defensive ratings I am not saying Team X is a better defense than Team Y. I am saying the offensive performance Z is more impressive or less impressive given that Team X or Team Y allowed this level of scoring on a per possession basis for the entire season in that year.

Its not good enough to only look at their relative rankings within the year because what if the entire league is scoring easily or struggling to score. A great offensive performance against an average defensive team during a "dead ball" era of basketball is more impressive than an identically great offensive performance against an average defensive team during a "videogame" era of basketball

If I'm understanding you correctly, what you are saying has at least some validity. It's both a reasonable and valid point to say that the 2002 Wizards did a better job of limiting points allowed on a per possession basis against the offenses that they faced than the 1992 Bulls did against the offenses that they faced.

What's not valid is trying extrapolate that to then say that the 2002 Wizards were better at limiting points allowed on a per possession basis in a general sense. Those two teams played against completely different offenses, and their defensive ratings are calculated as such.

It gets even less valid when trying to break it down further and use the statistic to say that a particular player faced tougher defenses than a different player from another era. Not only do you have to contend with the fact that those Drtg and Ortg are calculated against completely different teams, but those Drtg and Ortg can vary drastically from within, in the sense that scoring from the perimeter might be tougher in one area, yet interior scoring might be easier in that same era.

Unfortunately for statisticians, the sad truth of the matter is that there really doesn't exist any good statistic for comparing team defense across eras(Drtg is there best there is, and it's pretty terrible), and trying to further compare the strength of defenses that an individual player faced across eras is even more unreliable.

The best way for measuring what you seem to be trying to measure is still they eye test unfortunately, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

[AlphaWolf24]

:roll: at using 18 year old Kobe...


- can we use MJ at 18 losing/choking in college too?...

- what about Lebron missing the playoff's 2 years in a row...that's gottabe like - 500 pts on some advanced stat somewhere???

[pauk]

:roll: at using 18 year old Kobe...

- can we use MJ at 18 losing/choking in college too?...

No, this is strictly about NBA...



- what about Lebron missing the playoff's 2 years in a row...that's gottabe like - 500 pts on some advanced stat somewhere???

What about it? He was in no playoffs that time, hence had no "Win or go home" elimination games...

But just to retaliate anyways, Lebron was in the worst team in the NBA as an 18 year old, its no mystery.... but Kobe missing the playoffs in his prime in 2004-05 simply because Shaq left is more of a mystery... or maybe not....

[Boston C's]

Why do I get the feeling that Kobe faced much tougher defenses in this data set than Jordan (no D era) and Lebron (Eastern conference is weak)?

ill take the 90s era of defense over this era quite easily

[pauk]

I'll keep randomly adding more players i just looked up if you dont mind... feel free to make a player request...



KEVIN DURANT - 4 "win or go home" games (1 win, 3 losses)

PTS - 30.0 @ 42.3% FG
RBS - 8.8
ASTS - 2.3

BEST GAME - 39 pts, 9 rbs, 2 asts, 52% FG vs Grizzlies 2011 WCSF win
WORST GAME - 26 pts, 9 rbs, 2 asts, 21.7% FG vs Lakers 2010 1st round

DWYANE WADE - 10 "win or go home" games (3 wins, 7 losses)

PTS - 27.3 @ 45.3% FG
RBS - 4.8
ASTS - 5.6

BEST GAME - 46 pts, 5 rbs, 5 asts, 66.6% FG vs Celtics 2010 1st round win
WORST GAME - 17 pts, 8 rbs, 6 asts, 37% FG vs Mavs 2011 Finals

[jlip]

:roll: at using 18 year old Kobe...


- can we use MJ at 18 losing/choking in college too?...

- what about Lebron missing the playoff's 2 years in a row...that's gottabe like - 500 pts on some advanced stat somewhere???

Well...at least Pauk included a separate line for Kobe's stats as a starter as opposed to just calculating his cumulative stats with no context.

[28renyoy]

Typical Pauk excluding 3P%, 3PM, and FT%

And for Durant, his numbers are pulled down by 1 game during his first ever season in the playoffs. Excluding that game, he is beyond elite in do or die situations

31.33 ppg 54.3 eFG% 61.1 TS%

[pauk]

Typical Pauk excluding 3P%, 3PM, and FT%

And for Durant, his numbers are pulled down by 1 game during his first ever season in the playoffs. Excluding that game, he is beyond elite in do or die situations

31.33 ppg 54.3 eFG% 61.1 TS%

Sorry 28renyoy, didnt want to make it advanced (well maybe i wanted, but am to lazy), feel free to add everything else if you so wish...

eFG% & TS% is just an advanced stat, you can consider viewing it just out of curiosity, but its a deluded way to measure a players actual percentage and even worse consider it over the actual percentage (FG)...

TS% takes into account FT% for example... so if a guy is shooting horribly during a game (Field Goals) his ultra high FT% will boost that TS% up.... hence its a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the player actually shot (FG%)....

eFG% takes also into account that a 3PT shot is worth 1 more point, hence its even more of a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the players actually shot (FG%), that would be penalizing the players who take less 3's or barely any at all...

eFG% & TS% are advanced stats, they can be looked upon, but should NEVER be considered over the true Field Goal percentage.... FG% is all you need to know, its the most important, because those are the actual fieldgoals taking place during a game which are 2pt & 3pt shots and it doesnt favor any of the two (like eFG%), it shows simply what actually happened...


PS: Am not devaluating Durant, but the advanced stats in comparasant to FG%, Durant himself is awesome. :)

[AlphaWolf24]

No, this is strictly about NBA...



What about it? He was in no playoffs that time, hence had no "Win or go home" elimination games...

But just to retaliate anyways, Lebron was in the worst team in the NBA as an 18 year old, its no mystery.... but Kobe missing the playoffs in his prime in 2004-05 simply because Shaq left is more of a mystery... or maybe not....


Lebron was on the worst team??...really with a allstar caliber 7' (Z was n alltstar in 02 - 03') at the 5 spot and Carlos Boozer at the 4...bron at the 3.with a solid bench Mginnis ,Wagner and Mihm.

..that was the worst team?

missin the playoff's>not closing out a team in a elimination game...

sorry..but that's real life


















next

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Sorry 28renyoy, didnt want to make it advanced (well maybe i wanted, but am to lazy), feel free to add everything else if you so wish...

eFG% & TS% is just an advanced stat, you can consider viewing it just out of curiosity, but its a deluded way to measure a players actual percentage and even worse consider it over the actual percentage (FG)...

TS% takes into account FT% for example... so if a guy is shooting horribly during a game (Field Goals) his ultra high FT% will boost that eFG% up.... hence its a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the player actually shot (FG%)....

eFG% takes also into account that a 3PT shot is worth 1 more point, hence its even more of a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the players actually shot (FG%), that would be penalizing the players who take less 3's or barely any at all...

eFG% & TS% are advanced stats, they can be looked upon, but should NEVER be considered over the true Field Goal percentage.... FG% is all you need to know, its the most important, those are the actual fieldgoals taking place during a game.


That's rich. Pauk would think a player making 5 out of 10 layups and making 0 for 10 free throws is better than a player making 4 out of 10 3 pters and making 10 out of 10 free throws. 10 points vs 22 points FG%= TRUTH :oldlol:

[pauk]

:roll:

That's rich. Pauk would think a player making 5 out of 10 layups and making 0 for 10 free throws is better than a player making 4 out of 10 3 pters and making 10 out of 10 free throws. :oldlol:

Nope, i just think that FG and FT should be separated percentages...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Nope, i just think that FG and FT should be separated percentages...

Why is it better to look at FG% over TS% when looking at a player's offensive impact on the game?

[pauk]

Why is it better to look at FG% over TS% when looking at a player's offensive impact on the game?

Because it favors those who shoot high FT% percentage... TS% takes into account FT%... so if a guy is shooting horribly during a game (Field Goals) his ultra high FT% will boost that TS% up.... hence its a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the player actually shot (FG%)....


i.e. hypothetically speaking a 30% FG guy who shoots 100% FT can end up having the same TS% as a guy who shoots 60% FG but shoots 50% FT or something like that.... but TS% says that the 30% FG guy is as efficient as somebody as Shaq simply because of his FT%...

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Because it favors those who shoot high FT% percentage... TS% takes into account FT%... so if a guy is shooting horribly during a game (Field Goals) his ultra high FT% will boost that TS% up.... hence its a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the player actually shot (FG%)....


i.e. hypothetically speaking a 30% FG guy who shoots 100% FT can end up having the same TS% as a guy who shoots 60% FG but shoots 50% FT or something like that.... but TS% says that the 30% FG guy is as efficient as somebody as Shaq simply because of his FT%...


A player shooting 3/10 from the and 10/10 from the line produced the same exact amount of points as a player shooting 8/10 from the field and 0/10 from the line. TS% recognizes that. FG% does not. Why is that a bad thing? The scoreboard doesn't discriminate field goals from free throws.

[28renyoy]

A player shooting 3/10 from the and 10/10 from the line produced the same exact amount of points as a player shooting 8/10 from the field and 0/10 from the line. TS% recognizes that. FG% does not. Why is that a bad thing? The scoreboard doesn't discriminate field goals from free throws.

Pauk likes to use FG% because LeBron is an average free throw shooter and he doesn't take many 3's, aka his FG% is inflated in comparison with someone like Durant who shoots 50% from the field while taking 5+ 3's per game

If LeBron had a career TS% like Durant he would preach it as the end all be all stat, as Durant is the most efficient playoff and regular season scorer(25+ ppg) in history per TS%

[RaininTwos]

Nope, i just think that FG and FT should be separated percentages...

That's the way they HAVE ALWAYS been, stop responding to these clowns. I know you love bron and are biased but you did a good job of being impartial for the most(didnt read everything) in this thread.

[Hands of Iron]

Shaq in Must-Win Games

1998-03 (7 games): 33 ppg, 13 rpg, 3 apg, 59% TS
1994-05 (13 games): 28 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 apg, 59% TS

He's better than all of them. :oldlol:

If you include anything outside of 2005, you're a idiot.

[lilgodfather1]

Shaq in Must-Win Games

1998-03 (7 games): 33 ppg, 13 rpg, 3 apg, 59% TS
1994-05 (13 games): 28 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 apg, 59% TS

He's better than all of them. :oldlol:

If you include anything outside of 2005, you're a idiot.
Then we should take away all of Kobe's from his rookie year until his 5th year, and then again from his 14th season and on.

[Hands of Iron]

Shaq in Must-Win Games

1998-03 (7 games): 33 ppg, 13 rpg, 3 apg, 59% TS
1994-05 (13 games): 28 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 apg, 59% TS

He's better than all of them. :oldlol:

If you include anything outside of 2005, you're a idiot.

A TS% backfire? Isn't Kobe's like 51% from 2000-12 and in non-blowouts? You just can't keep the most efficient scorer in the game down, can you? :lol

'98 WCF, Game 4: 38 pts, 7 reb, 1 ast, 58.3% FG, 59.5% TS
'99 WCSF, Game 4: 36 pts, 14 reb, 0 ast, 52.2% FG, 54.3% TS
'00 WCQF, Game 5: 32 pts, 18 reb, 4 ast, 62.5% FG, 59.4% TS
'00 WCF, Game 7: 18 pts, 9 reb, 5 ast, 55.6% FG, 63.0% TS
'02 WCF, Game 6: 41 pts, 17 reb, 1 ast, 56.0% FG, 63.1% TS
'02 WCF, Game 7: 35 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 48.0% FG, 55.4% TS
'03 WCSF, Game 6: 31 pts, 10 reb, 3 ast, 61.9% FG, 61.0% TS

[Hands of Iron]

Then we should take away all of Kobe's from his rookie year until his 5th year, and then again from his 14th season and on.

Go ahead? What the hell does non-HOF caliber versions of HOF players tell you about how HOF players performed in must-win games? Completely asinine. I wouldn't include anything for Bird after 1988 either. Kobe may not even be on the hook until 2000-01. WTF did you do when you were ELITE and responsible? That's all that matters.

[LBJFTW]

Thats kindof a narrowminded way to look at it... Lebron had to make magic, pull a rabbit out of his rectum and have one of the greatest playoff series and games in playoffs history to get to his first Finals as a 21 year old with a team that was probably the worst team in NBA history to be in a Finals.... where as Jordan didnt get to a Finals until he was 28 years old due to finally having a great supporting cast...

Its only that 2011 Finals appearance you can attack from Lebron as he had a good supporting cast and he indeed individually underperformed there... there is a reason for that to (he played a new role, had new teammates, new offense, new chemistry, took extremly few shots and was way to passive/unselfish and so on), but thats no excuse... he underperformed by his standards...

One last thing, Lebron is 27 years old and had 3 Finals appearances, when MJ was 27 year old he had 0 Finals appearances... not trying to devaluate MJ here, its a team game, just making a more fair comparasant, i suggest we wait until Lebrons career is over until you can compare Lebron & MJ... right now its just disrespectful to MJ to compare his accomplishments to Lebron and very unfair to Lebron to compare him to MJ (as he indeed played many more seasons)...

We can wait until his career is over, but I just wanted to add that I've never seen a top 5 player in the league just simply quit on an entire franchise during a playoff game. We're not talking about under performing here..... the guy literally shut down and looked disinterested when playing against Boston in the playoffs.

[Hoopz2332]

update:rant

[SamuraiSWISH]

So

MJ
LeBron
Wade
Kobe
Durant

I think Kobe is more a clutch moment or shot guy and less we need an entire back to the wall, full game clutch performance kind of guy. Just my thoughts.

LeBron is a clutch game guy but more shook in defining moment type play scenarios.

As usual Mike was the best of both worlds. GOAT.

[LAZERUSS]

Wilt:

31.1 ppg
26.4 rpg
4.2 apg
.540 FG% (in post-season's that shot about .435 in that same span.)

Multiple games with KNOWN block totals of 10+.

The ONLY THREE 50+ point games by a GOAT in NBA playoff history, with a high of 56 (to go along with 35 rebounds.)

A Must Win Finals game of 45 points, 27 rebounds, and on 20-27 shooting.

A must win 50-35 playoff game against RUSSELL. Another must win playoff game against Russell of 46-34.

A way-past prime 34 and 35 year old Wilt vs a peak Kareem in their two series clinching games in '71 and '72 ...Wilt shot .545 from the floor (18-33)...Kareem shot .383 (23-60.)

Oh, and a prime "scoring" Wilt averaged 36.5 ppg in his 13 must win games.

[SamuraiSWISH]

Because it favors those who shoot high FT% percentage... TS% takes into account FT%... so if a guy is shooting horribly during a game (Field Goals) his ultra high FT% will boost that TS% up.... hence its a indoctrinated way to hide how bad the player actually shot (FG%)....


i.e. hypothetically speaking a 30% FG guy who shoots 100% FT can end up having the same TS% as a guy who shoots 60% FG but shoots 50% FT or something like that.... but TS% says that the 30% FG guy is as efficient as somebody as Shaq simply because of his FT%...
Totally agree

[Mr Feeny]

It's definitely lebron who is the highest scoring elimination game player in history.


Kobe for what it's worth is a 39% elimination game player:lol
:banana:

Truly pathetic :banana: