Finals Performances by ATG's (Post-Merger)

[Hands of Iron]

Basic overview on how some of the all-time great players since the post-merger have done on the game's biggest stage. Elminated the decimals and rounded accordingly for easy view-and-comparison.

LEBRON JAMES
2007: 22 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg, 36% FG, 43% TS
2011: 18 ppg, 7 rpg, 7 apg, 48% FG, 54% TS
2012: 29 ppg, 10 rpg, 7 apg, 47% FG, 56% TS (Finals MVP)
Career (15 games): 23 ppg, 8 rpg, 7 apg, 44% FG, 51% TS

DWYANE WADE
2006: 35 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg, 47% FG, 57% TS (Finals MVP)
2011: 27 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg, 55% FG, 61% TS
2012: 23 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 44% FG, 52% TS
Career (17 games): 28 ppg, 7 rpg, 5 apg, 48% FG, 57% TS

KOBE BRYANT
2000: 16 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg, 37% FG
2001: 24 ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg, 41% FG
2002: 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 51% FG
2004: 23 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 38% FG
2008: 26 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg, 40% FG
2009: 32 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 43% FG (Finals MVP)
2010: 29 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg, 41% FG (Finals MVP)
Career (37 games): 25 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 41% FG

TIM DUNCAN
1999: 27 ppg, 14 rpg, 2 apg, 54% FG, 60% TS (Finals MVP)
2003: 24 ppg, 17 rpg, 5 apg, 50% FG, 55% TS (Finals MVP)
2005: 21 ppg, 14 rpg, 2 apg, 42% FG, 47% TS (Finals MVP)
2007: 18 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg, 45% FG, 48% TS
Career (22 games): 23 ppg, 14 rpg, 3 apg, 47% FG, 52% TS

HAKEEM OLAJUWON
1986: 25 ppg, 12 rpg, 2 apg, 48% FG, 53% TS
1994: 27 ppg, 9 rpg, 4 apg, 50% FG, 56% TS (Finals MVP)
1995: 33 ppg, 12 rpg, 6 apg, 48% FG, 51% TS (Finals MVP)
Career (17 games): 27 ppg, 11 rpg, 3 apg, 49% FG, 53% TS

LARRY BIRD
1981: 15 ppg, 15 rpg, 7 apg, 42% FG, 46% TS
1984: 27 ppg, 14 rpg, 4 apg, 48% FG, 59% TS (Finals MVP)
1985: 24 ppg, 9 rpg, 5 apg, 45% FG, 53% TS
1986: 24 ppg, 10 rpg, 10 apg, 48% FG, 58% TS (Finals MVP)
1987: 24 ppg, 10 rpg, 6 apg, 45%% FG, 53% TS
Career (31 games): 23 ppg, 12 rpg, 6 apg, 46% FG, 54% TS

MAGIC JOHNSON
1980: 22 ppg, 11 rpg, 9 apg, 57% FG (Finals MVP)
1982: 16 ppg, 10 rpg, 8 apg, 53% FG (Finals MVP)
1983: 19 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, 40% FG
1984: 18 ppg, 8 rpg, 14 apg, 56% FG
1985: 18 ppg, 7 rpg, 14 apg, 49% FG
1987: 26 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, 54% FG (Finals MVP)
1988: 21 ppg, 6 rpg, 13 apg, 55% FG
1989: 12 ppg, 4 rpg, 8 apg, 46% FG
1991: 19 ppg, 8 rpg, 12 apg, 43% FG
Career (50 games): 20 ppg, 8 rpg, 12 apg, 52% FG

SHAQUILLE O'NEAL
1995: 28 ppg, 13 rpg, 6 apg, 60% FG, 61% TS
2000: 38 ppg, 17 rpg, 2 apg, 61% FG, 58% TS (Finals MVP)
2001: 33 ppg, 16 rpg, 5 apg, 57% FG, 58% TS (Finals MVP)
2002: 36 ppg, 12 rpg, 4 apg, 60% FG, 64% TS (Finals MVP)
2004: 27 ppg, 11 rpg, 2 apg, 63% FG, 62% TS
2006: 14 ppg, 10 rpg, 3 apg, 61% FG, 53% TS
Career (30 games): 29 ppg, 13 rpg, 3 apg, 60% FG, 59% TS

MICHAEL JORDAN
1991: 31 ppg, 7 rpg, 11 apg, 56% FG, 61% TS (Finals MVP)
1992: 36 ppg, 5 rpg, 7 apg, 53% FG, 62% TS (Finals MVP)
1993: 41 ppg, 9 rpg, 6 apg, 51% FG, 56% TS (Finals MVP)
1996: 27 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg, 42% FG, 54% TS (Finals MVP)
1997: 32 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 46% FG, 53% TS (Finals MVP)
1998: 34 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apg, 43% FG, 52% TS (Finals MVP)
Career (35 games): 34 ppg, 6 rpg, 6 apg, 48% FG, 56% TS

[KingBeasley08]

Jordan :bowdown:
Shaq :bowdown:

[RaininTwos]

Jordan :bowdown:
Shaq :bowdown:

Same thoughts here.

Wade is ridiculous as well.

[KOBE143]

Shaq fg% was fckng ridiculous..

[riseagainst]

holy sh1T. MJ :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[sundizz]

Pretty great list. Just goes to show using just finals data can be misleading though. Kobe clearly played against the toughest teams (defensively) in the finals. Not taking anything away of course..as Lebron dominated the Magic statistically. Just showing one side of the ball always makes for a limited discussion I think.

Jordan's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Lakers 105.0
Trail Blazers 104.2
Suns 106.7
Sonics 102.1
Jazz 104.0
Jaz 105.4
Average 104.6

Lebron's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Thunder 103.2
Mavs 105
Spurs 99.9
Average 102.7

Kobe's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Pacers 103.6
Sixers 98.9
Nets 99.5
Pistons 95.4
Celtics 98.9
Orlando 101.9
Celtics 103.8
Average 100.3

Jordan played against some great offensive, but clearly lacking defensive teams. The one time he played against an amazing defender in Payton his number's were well off what the rest of his averages are. Just food for thought...i know this data wouldn't change anyone's opinions about anything. I think Kobe is the most ineffective and has the worst 'cool off game' of the three. However, I think the #'s are a bit misleading on the talent they played against. Against subpar defensively rated teams his #'s are much better. Last season the difference of 4 points (from 100 to 104) was the defense of the Miami Heat versus the defense of the Toronto Raptors. Simply put, the league as a whole has improved miles on the defensive end (and to be honest probably lost a bit on the offensive end). The eye test, and the statistics agree to me. I watch old games and though they have hard fouls there is quite a bit of Suns style basketball going on. Just layups galore and poorly contested shots.

[B-hoop]

Bird and Magic almost averaging triple-doubles :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Da_Realist]

Pretty great list. Just goes to show using just finals data can be misleading though. Kobe clearly played against the toughest teams (defensively) in the finals. Not taking anything away of course..as Lebron dominated the Magic statistically. Just showing one side of the ball always makes for a limited discussion I think.

Jordan's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Lakers 105.0
Trail Blazers 104.2
Suns 106.7
Sonics 102.1
Jazz 104.0
Jaz 105.4
Average 104.6

Lebron's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Thunder 103.2
Mavs 105
Spurs 99.9
Average 102.7

Kobe's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Pacers 103.6
Sixers 98.9
Nets 99.5
Pistons 95.4
Celtics 98.9
Orlando 101.9
Celtics 103.8
Average 100.3

Jordan played against some great offensive, but clearly lacking defensive teams. The one time he played against an amazing defender in Payton his number's were well off what the rest of his averages are. Just food for thought...i know this data wouldn't change anyone's opinions about anything. I think Kobe is the most ineffective and has the worst 'cool off game' of the three. However, I think the #'s are a bit misleading on the talent they played against. Against subpar defensively rated teams his #'s are much better. Last season the difference of 4 points (from 100 to 104) was the defense of the Miami Heat versus the defense of the Toronto Raptors. Simply put, the league as a whole has improved miles on the defensive end (and to be honest probably lost a bit on the offensive end). The eye test, and the statistics agree to me. I watch old games and though they have hard fouls there is quite a bit of Suns style basketball going on. Just layups galore and poorly contested shots.

The defenses didn't hold Kobe to 42%. Kobe held Kobe to 42%. Let's not discount all those wild shots and heat checks that had something to do with it. 2004 Finals was an epic failure. 2008 Celtics were a great defensive team made to look greater by Kobe settling for long bailout shots instead of attacking the defense. 2009 Magic was destroyed by Lebron to the tune of 39 points on 49% from the field along with 8 rebs and 8 asts per game. 2010 Boston was running on fumes.

[fsvr54]

D Wade has better stats than Kobe lol

[Yao Ming's Foot]

The defenses didn't hold Kobe to 42%. Kobe held Kobe to 42%. Let's not discount all those wild shots and heat checks that had something to do with it. 2004 Finals was an epic failure. 2008 Celtics were a great defensive team made to look greater by Kobe settling for long bailout shots instead of attacking the defense. 2009 Magic was destroyed by Lebron to the tune of 39 points on 49% from the field along with 8 rebs and 8 asts per game. 2010 Boston was running on fumes.

Isn't it amazing how every other team settled for tough shots in the regular season against those teams as well. :oldlol: Lebron didn't face the Magic in the Finals. He faced the Spurs which held him to a low percentage. What a coincidence. Same with Jordan. Best D he faced was the Sonics and he just happened to have his lowest FG percentage against them. They all should have simply attacked the defense. :rolleyes:

[KG215]

Pretty great list. Just goes to show using just finals data can be misleading though. Kobe clearly played against the toughest teams (defensively) in the finals. Not taking anything away of course..as Lebron dominated the Magic statistically. Just showing one side of the ball always makes for a limited discussion I think.

Jordan's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Lakers 105.0
Trail Blazers 104.2
Suns 106.7
Sonics 102.1
Jazz 104.0
Jaz 105.4
Average 104.6

Lebron's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Thunder 103.2
Mavs 105
Spurs 99.9
Average 102.7

Kobe's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Pacers 103.6
Sixers 98.9
Nets 99.5
Pistons 95.4
Celtics 98.9
Orlando 101.9
Celtics 103.8
Average 100.3

Jordan played against some great offensive, but clearly lacking defensive teams. The one time he played against an amazing defender in Payton his number's were well off what the rest of his averages are. Just food for thought...i know this data wouldn't change anyone's opinions about anything. I think Kobe is the most ineffective and has the worst 'cool off game' of the three. However, I think the #'s are a bit misleading on the talent they played against. Against subpar defensively rated teams his #'s are much better. Last season the difference of 4 points (from 100 to 104) was the defense of the Miami Heat versus the defense of the Toronto Raptors. Simply put, the league as a whole has improved miles on the defensive end (and to be honest probably lost a bit on the offensive end). The eye test, and the statistics agree to me. I watch old games and though they have hard fouls there is quite a bit of Suns style basketball going on. Just layups galore and poorly contested shots.

Yao Ming's Foot alt account?

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Outside of Shaq have any of those other players faced a defense with a lower defensive rating than an average Kobe Finals defense?

[Heavincent]

2008 Celtics were a great defensive team made to look greater by Kobe settling for long bailout shots instead of attacking the defense.

Look beyond the stats. There wasn't much more Kobe could have done in the 08 Finals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nepmd2ygMK4

I know the guy in the video clearly has an agenda, but he does make some good points that are supported by video evidence.

[KG215]

And I don't care what anyone says about the defense of the teams Jordan faced during his first 3-peat. To put up 36-7-8-2-1 on .526/.421/.805 shooting is unbelievably good. To carry that load, play at that level, and play 100+ games three seasons in a row, and still produce like that for three championships....something like teams from one era allowing 3-5 fewer points per possession than the team's Jordan faced doesn't mean jack to me.

[Hands of Iron]

And I don't care what anyone says about the defense of the teams Jordan faced during his first 3-peat. To put up 36-7-8-2-1 on .526/.421/.805 shooting is unbelievably good. To carry that load, play at that level, and play 100+ games three seasons in a row, and still produce like that for three championships....something like teams from one era allowing 3-5 fewer points per possession than the team's Jordan faced don't mean jack to me.

This is how I feel about Shaq's three-peat as well.


Jordan played against some great offensive, but clearly lacking defensive teams. The one time he played against an amazing defender in Payton his number's were well off what the rest of his averages are. Just food for thought...

Shaq did pretty good against Olajuwon (1993-1994 DPOY) in '95, Mutombo (1995, 1997, 1998, 2001 DPOY) in '01 and Wallace (2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 DPOY) in '04. You could've stuck any one of them against him in 2000 and they would've been pulverized. He simply stepped up to another level of tenacity and focus in the Finals.

[LeBird]

I give the Jordan fans a hard time about declaring their idol the alpha and the omega; but you gotta hand it to him; in the Finals he was relentless.

[jlip]

MAGIC JOHNSON
1987: 26 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, 54% FG (Finals MVP)


Very underrated all time great finals (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241681)

[Da_Realist]

Magic's 87 Finals run is one of the greatest, imo. He ran through the Celtics like a hot knife in butter. DJ gets respect for defending Magic in the 84 Finals, but by 87 there was just nothing he could do. The LA Express was running on all cylinders that year cause no one could stop Magic.

edit: jlip beat me to it.

[KG215]

Magic's 87 Finals run is one of the greatest, imo. He ran through the Celtics like a hot knife in butter. DJ gets respect for defending Magic in the 84 Finals, but by 87 there was just nothing he could do. The LA Express was running on all cylinders that year cause no one could stop Magic.

edit: jlip beat me to it.

Was '87 or '88 the year Bird started having problems with bone spurs in his feet during the playoffs?

But yeah, I really need/want to watch all of the '87 Finals. Apparently that was Magic at his best.

[Da_Realist]

Was '87 or '88 the year Bird started having problems with bone spurs in his feet during the playoffs?

But yeah, I really need/want to watch all of the '87 Finals. Apparently that was Magic at his best.

The biggest injury for Boston that year was Mchale's foot. And something with Parish, but I don't remember what. Bird was relatively healthy. Even still, Magic put on a clinic on how to run a team into the ground. His 13 assists equated to around 30 points per game on top of the 26 he averaged (at 54%). That's almost 60 points per game.

[Da_Realist]

This isn't in the OP, but Isiah played out of his mind in 1990 against the Blazers.

[KG215]

The biggest injury for Boston that year was Mchale's foot. And something with Parish, but I don't remember what. Bird was relatively healthy. Even still, Magic put on a clinic on how to run a team into the ground. His 13 assists equated to around 30 points per game on top of the 26 he averaged (at 54%). That's almost 60 points per game.

Yeah, I knew that was the year McHale was playing on a broken foot (right?) or something. Didn't know if it was also the year Bird starting having bone spur problems.

Not sure even a healthy Celtics team beats Magic in '87 but it would've been interesting.

[Hands of Iron]

Michael Jordan, 1991:
Game 1: 36 pts, 8 reb, 12 ast, 3 stl, 58.3% FG
Game 2: 33 pts, 7 reb, 13 ast, 2 stl, 83.3% FG
Game 3: 29 pts, 9 reb, 9 ast, 4 stl, 39.3% FG
Game 4: 28 pts, 5 reb, 13 ast, 2 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 5: 30 pts, 4 reb, 10 ast, 5 stl, 52.0% FG

Michael Jordan, 1992:
Game 1: 39 pts, 3 reb, 11 ast, 2 stl, 59.3% FG
Game 2: 39 pts, 5 reb, 10 ast, 1 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 3: 26 pts, 7 reb, 4 ast, 3 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 4: 32 pts, 5 reb, 6 ast, 0 stl, 42.3% FG
Game 5: 46 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk, 60.9% FG
Game 6: 33 pts, 4 reb, 5 ast, 4 stl, 54.2% FG

Michael Jordan, 1993:
Game 1: 31 pts, 7 reb, 5 ast, 5 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 2: 42 pts, 12 reb, 9 ast, 2 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 3: 44 pts, 9 reb, 6 ast, 2 stl, 44.2% FG
Game 4: 55 pts, 8 reb, 4 ast, 0 stl, 56.8% FG
Game 5: 41 pts, 7 reb, 7 ast, 2 blk, 55.2% FG
Game 6: 33 pts, 8 reb, 7 ast, 1 stl, 50.0% FG


Shaquille O'Neal, 2000:
Game 1: 43 pts, 19 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 67.7% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 61.1% FG
Game 3: 33 pts, 13 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 62.5% FG
Game 4: 36 pts, 21 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 35 pts, 11 reb, 3 ast, 2 blk, 62.9% FG
Game 6: 41 pts, 12 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 59.3% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2001:
Game 1: 44 pts, 20 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 60.7% FG
Game 2: 28 pts, 20 reb, 9 ast, 8 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 3: 30 pts, 12 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 14 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 29 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 5 blk, 55.5% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2002:
Game 1: 36 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 54.5% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 12 reb, 8 ast, 1 blk, 60.8% FG
Game 3: 35 pts, 11 reb, 2 ast, 4 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk, 60.0% FG

[KG215]

I'd quote your post, break it down to single games accompanied with a cheesy bow-down or applause emoticon, but there's just too many "holy s**t" type games by both Jordan and Shaq during their 3-peats.

When you pair it with his regular season, I'm not sure there's another single season version of any other player in NBA history I'd rather have than 1999-2000 Shaq. A 30-14-4-3 57% regular season, followed by a 31-15-3-2 57% playoffs, and 38-17-2-3 61% Finals.

[Hands of Iron]

I'd quote your post, break it down to single games accompanied with a cheesy bow-down or applause emoticon, but there's just too many "holy s**t" type games by both Jordan and Shaq during their 3-peats.

When you pair it with his regular season, I'm not sure there's another single season version of any other player in NBA history I'd rather have than 1999-2000 Shaq. A 30-14-4-3 57% regular season, followed by a 31-15-3-2 57% playoffs, and 38-17-2-3 61% Finals.

Yup, add to the fact that Shaq was flat-out one of the best defenders in the league during this highly motivated particular period and he's easily in the running for the top single-season, back-to-back and three-year peaks including the regular season, playoffs and Finals in NBA history from 2000-2002. His 2000 Finals is massively impressive by any measure, but probably more so looking at it next to his All-Star, future HOF teammate in Kobe.

Game 1:
Shaq: 43/19/4, 67.7 FG%
Kobe: 14/5/3, 46.2 FG%

Game 2:
Shaq: 40/24/4, 61.1 FG%
Kobe: 2/4/1, played 9 minutes

Game 3:
Shaq 33/13/1, 62.5 FG%
Kobe: DNP

Game 4:
Shaq 36/21/1, 52.0 FG%
Kobe 28/5/4 51.9 FG% (Kobe's moment)

Game 5:
Shaq 35/11/3, 63 FG%
Kobe: 8/5/3, 20.0 FG%

Game 6:
Shaq: 41/12/1, 59.3 FG%
Kobe 26/10/4, 29.7 FG%

[shadow]

Yup, add to the fact that Shaq was flat-out one of the best defenders in the league during this highly motivated particular period and he's easily in the running for the top single-season, back-to-back and three-year peaks including the regular season, playoffs and Finals in NBA history from 2000-2002. His 2000 Finals is massively impressive by any measure, but probably more so looking at it next to his All-Star, future HOF teammate in Kobe.

Game 1:
Shaq: 43/19/4, 67.7 FG%
Kobe: 14/5/3, 46.2 FG%

Game 2:
Shaq: 40/24/4, 61.1 FG%
Kobe: 2/4/1, played 9 minutes

Game 3:
Shaq 33/13/1, 62.5 FG%
Kobe: DNP

Game 4:
Shaq 36/21/1, 52.0 FG%
Kobe 28/5/4 51.9 FG% (Kobe's moment)

Game 5:
Shaq 35/11/3, 63 FG%
Kobe: 8/5/3, 20.0 FG%

Game 6:
Shaq: 41/12/1, 59.3 FG%
Kobe 26/10/4, 29.7 FG%

2000 Kobe was a sidekick in the truest sense of the word so it's not a fair comparison imo. It was the following years that he truly started to come in his own, but even then Shaq was more dominant during the finals. That said, Kobe has yet to put up as dominant a performance in the finals as Shaq has, and he probably never will given the stage of his career he is in.

[Da_Realist]

I'd quote your post, break it down to single games accompanied with a cheesy bow-down or applause emoticon, but there's just too many "holy s**t" type games by both Jordan and Shaq during their 3-peats.

When you pair it with his regular season, I'm not sure there's another single season version of any other player in NBA history I'd rather have than 1999-2000 Shaq. A 30-14-4-3 57% regular season, followed by a 31-15-3-2 57% playoffs, and 38-17-2-3 61% Finals.

I'll take this guy (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240755) :cheers:

[riseagainst]

Michael Jordan, 1991:
Game 1: 36 pts, 8 reb, 12 ast, 3 stl, 58.3% FG
Game 2: 33 pts, 7 reb, 13 ast, 2 stl, 83.3% FG
Game 3: 29 pts, 9 reb, 9 ast, 4 stl, 39.3% FG
Game 4: 28 pts, 5 reb, 13 ast, 2 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 5: 30 pts, 4 reb, 10 ast, 5 stl, 52.0% FG

Michael Jordan, 1992:
Game 1: 39 pts, 3 reb, 11 ast, 2 stl, 59.3% FG
Game 2: 39 pts, 5 reb, 10 ast, 1 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 3: 26 pts, 7 reb, 4 ast, 3 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 4: 32 pts, 5 reb, 6 ast, 0 stl, 42.3% FG
Game 5: 46 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk, 60.9% FG
Game 6: 33 pts, 4 reb, 5 ast, 4 stl, 54.2% FG

Michael Jordan, 1993:
Game 1: 31 pts, 7 reb, 5 ast, 5 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 2: 42 pts, 12 reb, 9 ast, 2 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 3: 44 pts, 9 reb, 6 ast, 2 stl, 44.2% FG
Game 4: 55 pts, 8 reb, 4 ast, 0 stl, 56.8% FG
Game 5: 41 pts, 7 reb, 7 ast, 2 blk, 55.2% FG
Game 6: 33 pts, 8 reb, 7 ast, 1 stl, 50.0% FG


Shaquille O'Neal, 2000:
Game 1: 43 pts, 19 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 67.7% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 61.1% FG
Game 3: 33 pts, 13 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 62.5% FG
Game 4: 36 pts, 21 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 35 pts, 11 reb, 3 ast, 2 blk, 62.9% FG
Game 6: 41 pts, 12 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 59.3% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2001:
Game 1: 44 pts, 20 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 60.7% FG
Game 2: 28 pts, 20 reb, 9 ast, 8 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 3: 30 pts, 12 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 14 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 29 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 5 blk, 55.5% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2002:
Game 1: 36 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 54.5% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 12 reb, 8 ast, 1 blk, 60.8% FG
Game 3: 35 pts, 11 reb, 2 ast, 4 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk, 60.0% FG

:eek: :eek: :eek:

[riseagainst]

Yup, add to the fact that Shaq was flat-out one of the best defenders in the league during this highly motivated particular period and he's easily in the running for the top single-season, back-to-back and three-year peaks including the regular season, playoffs and Finals in NBA history from 2000-2002. His 2000 Finals is massively impressive by any measure, but probably more so looking at it next to his All-Star, future HOF teammate in Kobe.

Game 1:
Shaq: 43/19/4, 67.7 FG%
Kobe: 14/5/3, 46.2 FG%

Game 2:
Shaq: 40/24/4, 61.1 FG%
Kobe: 2/4/1, played 9 minutes

Game 3:
Shaq 33/13/1, 62.5 FG%
Kobe: DNP

Game 4:
Shaq 36/21/1, 52.0 FG%
Kobe 28/5/4 51.9 FG% (Kobe's moment)

Game 5:
Shaq 35/11/3, 63 FG%
Kobe: 8/5/3, 20.0 FG%

Game 6:
Shaq: 41/12/1, 59.3 FG%
Kobe 26/10/4, 29.7 FG%


Kobe shines without Shaq? :confusedshrug:

[jlip]

Shaquille O'Neal, 2000:
Game 1: 43 pts, 19 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 67.7% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 61.1% FG
Game 3: 33 pts, 13 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 62.5% FG
Game 4: 36 pts, 21 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 35 pts, 11 reb, 3 ast, 2 blk, 62.9% FG
Game 6: 41 pts, 12 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 59.3% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2001:
Game 1: 44 pts, 20 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 60.7% FG
Game 2: 28 pts, 20 reb, 9 ast, 8 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 3: 30 pts, 12 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 14 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 29 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 5 blk, 55.5% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2002:
Game 1: 36 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 54.5% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 12 reb, 8 ast, 1 blk, 60.8% FG
Game 3: 35 pts, 11 reb, 2 ast, 4 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk, 60.0% FG


I said this once some time ago on another thread but if you looked at the Lakers 3 peat and took Shaq's absolute worst numbers (pts, rbs, fg%) from those those 15 games and tried to assemble a statline, the worst possible game you could come up with would be 28pts 10rbs 52%fg.

[ILLsmak]

Even though we probably know or can access the information, it might be cool to post whether they won the series and in how many games. Maybe even their all time record with their all-time stats.

-Smak

[PJR]

Kobrick with two sub 40% Finals series. :oldlol:

[LikeABosh]

Lebron, the "Finals Choker" stats are just as good if not better than Kobe's. hmmm

[rmt]

Yup, add to the fact that Shaq was flat-out one of the best defenders in the league during this highly motivated particular period and he's easily in the running for the top single-season, back-to-back and three-year peaks including the regular season, playoffs and Finals in NBA history from 2000-2002. His 2000 Finals is massively impressive by any measure, but probably more so looking at it next to his All-Star, future HOF teammate in Kobe.

Game 1:
Shaq: 43/19/4, 67.7 FG%
Kobe: 14/5/3, 46.2 FG%

Game 2:
Shaq: 40/24/4, 61.1 FG%
Kobe: 2/4/1, played 9 minutes

Game 3:
Shaq 33/13/1, 62.5 FG%
Kobe: DNP

Game 4:
Shaq 36/21/1, 52.0 FG%
Kobe 28/5/4 51.9 FG% (Kobe's moment)

Game 5:
Shaq 35/11/3, 63 FG%
Kobe: 8/5/3, 20.0 FG%

Game 6:
Shaq: 41/12/1, 59.3 FG%
Kobe 26/10/4, 29.7 FG%

This post needs to be quoted every time a Kobe stan pulls the 5 > _ stunt.



Michael Jordan, 1991:
Game 1: 36 pts, 8 reb, 12 ast, 3 stl, 58.3% FG
Game 2: 33 pts, 7 reb, 13 ast, 2 stl, 83.3% FG
Game 3: 29 pts, 9 reb, 9 ast, 4 stl, 39.3% FG
Game 4: 28 pts, 5 reb, 13 ast, 2 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 5: 30 pts, 4 reb, 10 ast, 5 stl, 52.0% FG

Michael Jordan, 1992:
Game 1: 39 pts, 3 reb, 11 ast, 2 stl, 59.3% FG
Game 2: 39 pts, 5 reb, 10 ast, 1 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 3: 26 pts, 7 reb, 4 ast, 3 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 4: 32 pts, 5 reb, 6 ast, 0 stl, 42.3% FG
Game 5: 46 pts, 5 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk, 60.9% FG
Game 6: 33 pts, 4 reb, 5 ast, 4 stl, 54.2% FG

Michael Jordan, 1993:
Game 1: 31 pts, 7 reb, 5 ast, 5 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 2: 42 pts, 12 reb, 9 ast, 2 stl, 50.0% FG
Game 3: 44 pts, 9 reb, 6 ast, 2 stl, 44.2% FG
Game 4: 55 pts, 8 reb, 4 ast, 0 stl, 56.8% FG
Game 5: 41 pts, 7 reb, 7 ast, 2 blk, 55.2% FG
Game 6: 33 pts, 8 reb, 7 ast, 1 stl, 50.0% FG


Shaquille O'Neal, 2000:
Game 1: 43 pts, 19 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 67.7% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 24 reb, 4 ast, 3 blk, 61.1% FG
Game 3: 33 pts, 13 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 62.5% FG
Game 4: 36 pts, 21 reb, 1 ast, 2 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 35 pts, 11 reb, 3 ast, 2 blk, 62.9% FG
Game 6: 41 pts, 12 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 59.3% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2001:
Game 1: 44 pts, 20 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 60.7% FG
Game 2: 28 pts, 20 reb, 9 ast, 8 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 3: 30 pts, 12 reb, 3 ast, 4 blk, 55.0% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 14 reb, 5 ast, 0 blk, 52.0% FG
Game 5: 29 pts, 13 reb, 2 ast, 5 blk, 55.5% FG

Shaquille O'Neal, 2002:
Game 1: 36 pts, 16 reb, 1 ast, 4 blk, 54.5% FG
Game 2: 40 pts, 12 reb, 8 ast, 1 blk, 60.8% FG
Game 3: 35 pts, 11 reb, 2 ast, 4 blk, 63.1% FG
Game 4: 34 pts, 10 reb, 4 ast, 2 blk, 60.0% FG

And this one should be quoted when Kobe stans argue that Kobe is comparable to MJ or Shaq.

[AlphaWolf24]

Seems Kobe underperforms regardless of the circumstances or opposition.


Underperforms??


:lol

outside of 2000 (when he got hurt and still had a few epic games)..his Finals stats are amazing...

2001: 24 ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg, 41% FG
2002: 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 51% FG
2004: 23 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 38% FG
2008: 26 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg, 40% FG
2009: 32 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 43% FG (Finals MVP)
2010: 29 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg, 41% FG (Finals MVP)


that's 4 top shelf Championship runs ...he has over twice as many Finals games as Lebron....He has more Finals games then anyone on that list!

Jordan - 1991: 31 ppg, 7 rpg, 11 apg, 56% FG (Finals MVP)...
1996: 27 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg, 42% FG (Finals MVP)
1997: 32 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 46% FG (Finals MVP)
1998: 34 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apg, 43% FG (Finals MVP)





(thumps chest)......keep on spewing filth....games 38 - 41 (+) are comin soon...:banana:









PS: Look at Bird and Bron...(giggles)....those are Turruble......Bird had back 2 back 8 point games in the Finals....anyone saying anything???:??

[KG215]

I'll take this guy (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=240755) :cheers:

Right I might take him, too. Ranking all-time greats by their absolute peak or single best season, then 1990-1991 Jordan, and 1999-2000 Shaq are at or very near the top of the list.

[KG215]

This post needs to be quoted every time a Kobe stan pulls the 5 > _ stunt.




And this one should be quoted when Kobe stans argue that Kobe is comparable to MJ or Shaq.

That was for one playoff run. By the 2001 playoffs, Kobe was a top 3-5 player in the league. So you can't just look at the 2000 playoffs to make that claim.

That's also why I'm so high on 2000 Shaq. Kobe was still more #2 option than 1b option in basically every sense.

[Hands of Iron]

Underperforms??


:lol

outside of 2000 (when he got hurt and still had a few epic games)..his Finals stats are amazing...

2001: 24 ppg, 8 rpg, 6 apg, 41% FG
2002: 27 ppg, 6 rpg, 5 apg, 51% FG
2004: 23 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 38% FG
2008: 26 ppg, 5 rpg, 5 apg, 40% FG
2009: 32 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 43% FG (Finals MVP)
2010: 29 ppg, 8 rpg, 4 apg, 41% FG (Finals MVP)


that's 4 top shelf Championship runs ...he has over twice as many Finals games as Lebron....He has more Finals games then anyone on that list!

Jordan - 1991: 31 ppg, 7 rpg, 11 apg, 56% FG (Finals MVP)...
1996: 27 ppg, 5 rpg, 4 apg, 42% FG (Finals MVP)
1997: 32 ppg, 7 rpg, 6 apg, 46% FG (Finals MVP)
1998: 34 ppg, 4 rpg, 2 apg, 43% FG (Finals MVP)

They've been decent enough to get the job done. Hasn't had that hallmark series where he completely decimates the opposition. 2002 was very good no doubt, but '09 is as close as it's gotten and probably the most satisfying for obvious reasons. I thought he played great then regardless of percentages, came out and set the tone early with that 40/8/8.


(thumps chest)......keep on spewing filth....games 38 - 41 (+) are comin soon...:banana:

Hope so. :oldlol:


PS: Look at Bird and Bron...(giggles)....those are Turruble......Bird had back 2 back 8 point games in the Finals....anyone saying anything???:??

Yeah, neither were/have been particularly amazing in the Finals. Mention it all you want. I'm sure jlauber has.

[Hands of Iron]

That was for one playoff run. By the 2001 playoffs, Kobe was a top 3-5 player in the league. So you can't just look at the 2000 playoffs to make that claim.

That's also why I'm so high on 2000 Shaq. Kobe was still more #2 option than 1b option in basically every sense.

The series in which Kobe outplayed him was the 2002 WCSF against San Antonio. Absolutely abysmal series for Shaq, admittedly. The 2001 WCF is consistently brought up because it was Kobe's best of the dozen from the 3-peat, but Shaq really wasnt hurting much by dropping 27/13/3/54% against the Twin Towers. It's always the 2001 WCF and Game 7 of the 2000 WCF, but what about the other games? Series shouldve been over in five games.

Game 1
Shaq: 41/11/7/5, 56%
Kobe: 13/3/6, 44%

Game 2:
Shaq: 23/12/4, 56%
Kobe: 12/2/4, 22%

Game 3:
Shaq: 26/12/3, 59%
Kobe: 25/7/7, 61%

Game 4:
Shaq: 25/11/3, 48%
Kobe: 18/4/7, 33%

Game 5:
Shaq: 31/21/3, 60%
Kobe: 17/5/4, 31%

C'mon man. :lol

[AlphaWolf24]

They've been decent enough to get the job done. Hasn't had that hallmark series where he completely decimates the opposition. 2002 was very good no doubt, but '09 is as close as it's gotten and probably the most satisfying for obvious reasons. I thought he played great then regardless of percentages, came out and set the tone early with that 40/8/8.



Hope so. :oldlol:



Yeah, neither were/have been particularly amazing in the Finals. Mention it all you want. I'm sure jlauber has.


I don't know...it just sounds ridiculous to me saying..."They 've been just decent enough enough to get the job done"...

- He's had 4 Great Finals series....09' he did dominate...not sure how that was just "decent enough"....really?..what percentages are looking at???

- 02'...what did you expect..lakers just absolutley destroyed the Nets...the games were over at the end of the 3rd quarter...

- I always felt like the early 00's Finals were a let down....the real Championship wasLA vs Portland or LA vs Spurs or LA vs the Kings....

Kobe absolutley Dominated the Spurs ( 33ppg 7reb 7ast)....and the Game 7 vs Portland Kobe led LA in the comeback that started the whole 3 peat!!!

- look at in context...his 01' Playoff Run was amazing ( even him vs AI in the Finals was Epic)....the 00' comeback ....and ended the Decade with 3 staright Amazing Finals run....


"just decent enough":roll: ....U silly Homey

[caliman]

Shaq was just ridiculous from 2000-02. Just domination at the highest level. His 2004 Finals was considered a let down, and he still went for 27 and 11. I wish he would have retired after the 2006 season so his dominance was still fresh in peoples mind, instead of him being washed up in Cleveland and Boston.

[Hands of Iron]

Yes, the context. See above for the Portland series. If Kobe 'saved them', it was pretty much owed after a piss-poor series that should've been closed out in five games when Shaq dropped 31/21 on the Blazers. The context.. The 2001 Spurs had nothing in the form of perimeter defense while Shaq still had an excellent series by any measure in the trenches against the twin towers. The 2002 WCF he drops 30/14 on 54% against the Kings, Kobe 27/6/4 on 42%. That isn't even terms, brother.

The 76ers had a top 5 defense in the league by just about every measure in 2001 with DPOY Mutombo btw. It's not anybody elses problem Kobe got held to another sub-40% Finals by Eric Snow and Raja Bell.

[DTreats]

Stop ignoring Isaiah Thomas, he destroys Kobe when it mattered most.

[AlphaWolf24]

Yes, the context. See above for the Portland series. If Kobe 'saved them', it was pretty much owed after a piss-poor series that should've been closed out in five games when Shaq dropped 31/21 on the Blazers. The context.. The 2001 Spurs had nothing in the form of perimeter defense while Shaq still had an excellent series by any measure in the trenches against the twin towers. The 2002 WCF he drops 30/14 on 54% against the Kings, Kobe 27/6/4 on 42%. That isn't even terms, brother.

The 76ers had a top 5 defense in the league by just about every measure in 2001 with DPOY Mutombo btw. It's not anybody elses problem Kobe got held to another sub-40% Finals by Eric Snow and Raja Bell.


so basically U are using your own criteria like "perimeter defense"???

that's funny considering....Shaq faced 50 year old Zabonis....Dutchboy Smits ....floppy Divac and freaking Todd Mulkuloch!!:lol

- 2000 Kobe did save them....and it is close in "terms"...Kobe was a first team all NBA dfense (wich Shaq never made)...by 2001 Kobe was clearly LA's first option in t 4th quarter and crunchtime...he was clearly the bes player in te WCFianls (the real championship ) and widely considerd the best overall player in the league...(Shaq and Phil even said it)

[juju151111]

so basically U are using your own criteria like "perimeter defense"???

that's funny considering....Shaq faced 50 year old Zabonis....Dutchboy Smits ....floppy Divac and freaking Todd Mulkuloch!!:lol

- 2000 Kobe did save them....and it is close in "terms"...Kobe was a first team all NBA dfense (wich Shaq never made)...by 2001 Kobe was clearly LA's first option in t 4th quarter and crunchtime...he was clearly the bes player in te WCFianls (the real championship ) and widely considerd the best overall player in the league...(Shaq and Phil even said it)
Can u please Post Shaq 4th Q stats and Kobe's. The stats should show this crunch time stuff u claim right? Because I have sworn I have read Shaqattack write a book basically about how Shaq performed in those 4th Q

[Hands of Iron]

so basically U are using your own criteria like "perimeter defense"???

that's funny considering....Shaq faced 50 year old Zabonis....Dutchboy Smits ....floppy Divac and freaking Todd Mulkuloch!!:lol

- 2000 Kobe did save them....and it is close in "terms"...Kobe was a first team all NBA dfense (wich Shaq never made)...by 2001 Kobe was clearly LA's first option in t 4th quarter and crunchtime...he was clearly the bes player in te WCFianls (the real championship ) and widely considerd the best overall player in the league...(Shaq and Phil even said it)

Nope, just putting things into context. Shaq was All-D 2000, 2001. There is only 1 spot for Centers and 2 each given forwards and guards. Shaq's opposition? I'll post it again:

Shaq faced three all-time great defenders in the Finals. One of those times, he was in his 3rd season in the league and another he was past his peak with Kobe playing hero ball shooting the Lakers out of the Finals. Olajuwon, a 2x DPOY who had won the Award the previous two seasons before their meeting in 1995. Mutombo, a 4x DPOY who had won the Award the season he faced Shaq in the Finals. Wallace, a 4x DPOY who had had won the Award the previous two seasons before their meeting in 2004 and would win it again the two following years in 2005-2006.

Collectively: 29/13/4 on 60% from the field.

Can anybody honestly see him doing worse against '04 Wallace (and more so the Pistons as a unit) and '95 Hakeem by pitting the '02 and '00 versions of Shaq against them? I seriously doubt it. It'd probably be somewhere in the middle of what he did against them already and what the Nets and Pacers experienced which would still rate amongst the best ever pretty easily.

It's a fair question to ask for ANY player in NBA history:

How many ATG defensive players did see/were they matched up with in the Finals, what do their resumes look like, where were they at during that particular time and how did he perform against them?

I think Shaq comes out looking ok.



00 WR1: 29/17/3/3 54% (Kobe: 28/4/3/1 50%)
00 WSF: 30/16/3/3 56% (Kobe: 21/4/3/2 45%)
00 WCF: 26/12/4/2 54% (Kobe: 20/5/6/2 44%)
00 NBAF: 38/17/2/3 61% (Kobe: 16/5/4/1 38%)

01 WR1: 27/16/3/1 48% (Kobe: 25/4/8/2 48%)
01 WSF: 33/17/3/3 60% (Kobe: 35/9/4/1 47%)
01 WCF: 27/13/3/1 54% (Kobe: 33/7/7/1 51%) -- ???
01 NBAF: 33/16/5/3 57% (Kobe: 25/8/6/42%)

02 WR1: 26/11/4/2 56% (Kobe: 26/6/5/2 35%)
02 WSF: 21/12/3/3 45% (Kobe: 26/5/5/1 46%)
02 WCF: 30/14/2/2 53% (Kobe: 27/6/4/1 42%)
02 NBAF: 36/12/3/3 60% (Kobe: 27/6/5/1 51%)

[AlphaWolf24]

Nope, just putting things into context. Shaq was All-D 2000, 2001. There is only 1 spot for Centers and 2 each given forwards and guards. Shaq's opposition? I'll post it again:

Shaq faced three all-time great defenders in the Finals. One of those times, he was in his 3rd season in the league and another he was past his peak with Kobe playing hero ball shooting the Lakers out of the Finals. Olajuwon, a 2x DPOY who had won the Award the previous two seasons before their meeting in 1995. Mutombo, a 4x DPOY who had won the Award the season he faced Shaq in the Finals. Wallace, a 4x DPOY who had had won the Award the previous two seasons before their meeting in 2004 and would win it again the two following years in 2005-2006.

Collectively: 29/13/4 on 60% from the field.

Can anybody honestly see him doing worse against '04 Wallace (and more so the Pistons as a unit) and '95 Hakeem by pitting the '02 and '00 versions of Shaq against them? I seriously doubt it. It'd probably be somewhere in the middle of what he did against them already and what the Nets and Pacers experienced which would still rate amongst the best ever pretty easily.

It's a fair question to ask for ANY player in NBA history:

How many ATG defensive players did see/were they matched up with in the Finals, what do their resumes look like, where were they at during that particular time and how did he perform against them?

I think Shaq comes out looking ok.



00 WR1: 29/17/3/3 54% (Kobe: 28/4/3/1 50%)
00 WSF: 30/16/3/3 56% (Kobe: 21/4/3/2 45%)
00 WCF: 26/12/4/2 54% (Kobe: 20/5/6/2 44%)
00 NBAF: 38/17/2/3 61% (Kobe: 16/5/4/1 38%)

01 WR1: 27/16/3/1 48% (Kobe: 25/4/8/2 48%)
01 WSF: 33/17/3/3 60% (Kobe: 35/9/4/1 47%)
01 WCF: 27/13/3/1 54% (Kobe: 33/7/7/1 51%) -- ???
01 NBAF: 33/16/5/3 57% (Kobe: 25/8/6/42%)

02 WR1: 26/11/4/2 56% (Kobe: 26/6/5/2 35%)
02 WSF: 21/12/3/3 45% (Kobe: 26/5/5/1 46%)
02 WCF: 30/14/2/2 53% (Kobe: 27/6/4/1 42%)
02 NBAF: 36/12/3/3 60% (Kobe: 27/6/5/1 51%)


so 2 outta 3 times he aced "ATG" players and lost .....got severley outplayed by Hakeem in 95' and Ben Walace in 04'...ayone who watched the series in 04'...shaq got outhustled nearly every play/loose ball by Wallace...and outrebounded...

- Shaq was never in his career a 1rst team all defensive player..so now you slight Kobe becuse of 2 gaurds??....:rolleyes: please....Shaq hs been outt shape nearly 3/4th' of his career...he never played a streched out defensive game...he always seemed to be in foul trouble...and had a poor work ethic if he didn't get the ball ( see his touches)...he never made the first team for a reason....

all the bias criteria u making up..Kobe still outplayed Shaq in many series...was the first option in the key moments of games ( since he was basically18 years old)...Him and Shaq 3peated...Him and Shaq both dominated...and Kobe went on o still dominate at a higher level then e was with Shaq..eanwhile Shaq never even sniffed the same success as he did with Kobe (the best alaround playersince 01')

Shaq still cant see em'...
(Kobe: 25/4/8/2 48%)
(Kobe: 35/9/4/1 47%)
(Kobe: 33/7/7/1 51%) ...why do you use FG%...TS% is much better....:lol

Kobe slighting?...really...so 2008...



Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% during the 00' - 02' 3peat....who carried who?


2EZ

[caliman]

Shaq got "severly" outplayed by Ben Wallace? How can someone putting up 27 and 11 on 63% shooting be severly outplayed by anyone?

I call bullsh*t on Kobe averaging 9 points on 64% shooting in the 4th quarters from 2000-02. Please produce that link.

[Hands of Iron]

so 2 outta 3 times he aced "ATG" players and lost .....got severley outplayed by Hakeem in 95' and Ben Walace in 04'...ayone who watched the series in 04'...shaq got outhustled nearly every play/loose ball by Wallace...and outrebounded...

- Shaq was never in his career a 1rst team all defensive player..so now you slight Kobe becuse of 2 gaurds??....:rolleyes: please....Shaq hs been outt shape nearly 3/4th' of his career...he never played a streched out defensive game...he always seemed to be in foul trouble...and had a poor work ethic if he didn't get the ball ( see his touches)...he never made the first team for a reason....

all the bias criteria u making up..Kobe still outplayed Shaq in many series...was the first option in the key moments of games ( since he was basically18 years old)...Him and Shaq 3peated...Him and Shaq both dominated...and Kobe went on o still dominate at a higher level then e was with Shaq..eanwhile Shaq never even sniffed the same success as he did with Kobe (the best alaround playersince 01')

Shaq still cant see em'



Kobe averaged 9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters. Shaq averaged 4.5 ppg on 29% during the 00' - 02' 3peat....who carried who?


2EZ

:oldlol:

You're the only one making shit up. Crackhead troll. Was fun. :D

[AlphaWolf24]

:oldlol:

You're the only one making shit up. Crackhead troll. Was fun. :D


- some from PHX calling other folks ****heads....


that's funny...

Haters gonna Lakeers

next

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq got "severly" outplayed by Ben Wallace? How can someone putting up 27 and 11 on 63% shooting be severly outplayed by anyone?

I call bullsh*t on Kobe averaging 9 points on 64% shooting in the 4th quarters from 2000-02. Please produce that link.


when Wallace is Outrebounding you...beating you down the floor...and outplaying you in key moments...

oh yeah I forgot....The OP says Shaq fell outta his prime in 04':rolleyes:


there s no search function here...but Kobe def outplyed Shaq in the 4th quarters durng the combined 3 peat.

[caliman]

when Wallace is Outrebounding you...beating you down the floor...and outplaying you in key moments...

oh yeah I forgot....The OP says Shaq fell outta his prime in 04':rolleyes:


there s no search function here...but Kobe def outplyed Shaq in the 4th quarters durng the combined 3 peat.


I'm gonna assume that you made up the 9 points on 64% shooting during 4th quarters bullsh*t since you can't/wont produce a link showing that.

It's a fantasy to say that Kobe outplayed Shaq in the 4th quarter during the 3 peat years. Did he have some big 4th quarters when the Lakers absolutely needed it? Yes he did. Most notably, Game 7 against Portland and Games 3 and 4 against San Antonio in 2002.

But lost in all of that is the fact that it was Shaq drawing the defensive attention that allowed Kobe to play 1 on 1. When the Lakers finished off the Pacers in 2000 it was on the back iof Shaq, not Kobe. When the finally eliminated Sacramento it was on the back of Shaq, not Kobe. In fact, Kobe didn't make a field goal in the 4th quarter or OT. Just stop with the nonsense.

[Hands of Iron]

I'm gonna assume that you made up the 9 points on 64% shooting during 4th quarters bullsh*t since you can't/wont produce a link showing that.

It's a fantasy to say that Kobe outplayed Shaq in the 4th quarter during the 3 peat years. Did he have some big 4th quarters when the Lakers absolutely needed it? Yes he did. Most notably, Game 7 against Portland and Games 3 and 4 against San Antonio in 2002.

But lost in all of that is the fact that it was Shaq drawing the defensive attention that allowed Kobe to play 1 on 1. When the Lakers finished off the Pacers in 2000 it was on the back iof Shaq, not Kobe. When the finally eliminated Sacramento it was on the back of Shaq, not Kobe. In fact, Kobe didn't make a field goal in the 4th quarter or OT. Just stop with the nonsense

Nonsense is what he thrives on. Criticizing Shaq's perfomance in a series Kobe was put on lockdown singlehandedly, 22 ppg on 38%? :lol A bunch of heavily subjective anecdotal drivel mixed with counting up All-NBA selections. Shaq had arguably the most dominant Peak and Finals performances ever in NBA history, he is consistently in that conversation. Kobe, not so much. Have the longevity and accolades, Shaq was the better, more dominant, more impactful player. Also much better in elimination games as well.

[AlphaWolf24]

I'm gonna assume that you made up the 9 points on 64% shooting during 4th quarters bullsh*t since you can't/wont produce a link showing that.

It's a fantasy to say that Kobe outplayed Shaq in the 4th quarter during the 3 peat years. Did he have some big 4th quarters when the Lakers absolutely needed it? Yes he did. Most notably, Game 7 against Portland and Games 3 and 4 against San Antonio in 2002.

But lost in all of that is the fact that it was Shaq drawing the defensive attention that allowed Kobe to play 1 on 1. When the Lakers finished off the Pacers in 2000 it was on the back iof Shaq, not Kobe. When the finally eliminated Sacramento it was on the back of Shaq, not Kobe. In fact, Kobe didn't make a field goal in the 4th quarter or OT. Just stop with the nonsense.


It was posted here along time ago...not really a link

your other nonsense is silly..."shaq opened the lane for Kobe"...people are still spewing that garbage??

- Kobe could dominate with or without Shaq ... Shaq benefited by playing with (as voted by fans) the greatest player of teh decade ...then vice versa

- when LA won it's first Title...is was because Kobe led the comeback....and played elite defense vs Jackson and miller ( not shaq scoring 3' from the hoop against a Euro)

- When LA 3 peated in 02' it was because of Kobe droppin 9 points on 64% shooting during 4th quarters ..while Shaq's big toe hurt while he was in foul trouble on the bench.

[fpliii]

somebody has 4th quarter stats from the threepeat?

play-by-play data on basketball-reference only goes back to the 00-01 season, meaning that if someone has the aforementioned numbers, he either has a different source or kept track himself

[rmt]

It was posted here along time ago...not really a link

your other nonsense is silly..."shaq opened the lane for Kobe"...people are still spewing that garbage??

- Kobe could dominate with or without Shaq ... Shaq benefited by playing with (as voted by fans) the greatest player of teh decade ...then vice versa

- when LA won it's first Title...is was because Kobe led the comeback....and played elite defense vs Jackson and miller ( not shaq scoring 3' from the hoop against a Euro)

- When LA 3 peated in 02' it was because of Kobe droppin 9 points on 64% shooting during 4th quarters ..while Shaq's big toe hurt while he was in foul trouble on the bench.

LOL at "as voted by fans" as if that makes it true.


Yup, add to the fact that Shaq was flat-out one of the best defenders in the league during this highly motivated particular period and he's easily in the running for the top single-season, back-to-back and three-year peaks including the regular season, playoffs and Finals in NBA history from 2000-2002. His 2000 Finals is massively impressive by any measure, but probably more so looking at it next to his All-Star, future HOF teammate in Kobe.

Game 1:
Shaq: 43/19/4, 67.7 FG%
Kobe: 14/5/3, 46.2 FG%

Game 2:
Shaq: 40/24/4, 61.1 FG%
Kobe: 2/4/1, played 9 minutes

Game 3:
Shaq 33/13/1, 62.5 FG%
Kobe: DNP

Game 4:
Shaq 36/21/1, 52.0 FG%
Kobe 28/5/4 51.9 FG% (Kobe's moment)

Game 5:
Shaq 35/11/3, 63 FG%
Kobe: 8/5/3, 20.0 FG%

Game 6:
Shaq: 41/12/1, 59.3 FG%
Kobe 26/10/4, 29.7 FG%

Don't see how you can look at Kobe's and Shaq's numbers in '00 and say it was because of Kobe.

[KG215]

LOL at "as voted by fans" as if that makes it true.



Don't see how you can look at Kobe's and Shaq's numbers in '00 and say it was because of Kobe.
Well, AlphaWolf24 may be the dumbest and worst Kobe stan on ISH, which really is saying a lot. He irrationally says things like "Kobe was voted as the best player of the decade" and I've rarely seen him actually include the part where it was a fan vote. He also says things like 95% of fans consider Kobe a top 5 player all-time. He just throws shit out there, knowing there's really no way you can factually prove him wrong unless you did some deep digging, and assumes he's right.

He, like other Kobe stans, do everything they can to completely downplay what Shaq did during the 3-peat. What gets me is that the general consensus is Shaq's performance during that 3-peat is arguably the most dominant and impressive run in NBA history and they still use very flawed arguments like "Kobe was the 4th quarter closer" and "Shaq couldn't shoot FTs" and hope they stick. Only the trolliest of Kobe stans can try and say Kobe was as important or meant as much to the Lakers during the 2000 season and playoffs.

[AlphaWolf24]

'Well, AlphaWolf24 may be the dumbest and worst Kobe stan on ISH, which really is saying a lot. He irrationally says things like "Kobe was voted as the best player of the decade" and I've rarely seen him actually include the part where it was a fan vote. He also says things like 95% of fans consider Kobe a top 5 player all-time. He just throws shit out there, knowing there's really no way you can factually prove him wrong unless you did some deep digging, and assumes he's right.

He, like other Kobe stans, do everything they can to completely downplay what Shaq did during the 3-peat. What gets me is that the general consensus is Shaq's performance during that 3-peat is arguably the most dominant and impressive run in NBA history and they still use very flawed arguments like "Kobe was the 4th quarter closer" and "Shaq couldn't shoot FTs" and hope they stick. Only the trolliest of Kobe stans can try and say Kobe was as important or meant as much to the Lakers during the 2000 season and playoffs.


Fan vote??.....so who is supposed to vote?...

you are basically saying " It doesn't matter what 99% of the basketball community thinks".....what eally matters is 1% of the biased sport writers etc think??...and who's to say ty don't vote Kobe #1....Sporting News voted him player of the decade also....so neener...neener...neener...


The Sporting News named Lakers guard Kobe Bryant the NBA player of the decade Thursday.

The best part of the story on The Sporting News' website is what Shaquille O'Neal says about Bryant:


The thing about Kobe is that, over the course of my career, I have never played with anyone who was as fierce as he is. By fierce I mean just having that extra killer instinct that you know when the game is on the line he is not going to shy away from the big shot, he is not going to make excuses. If we would go into the fourth quarter, playoffs or just some game in the season and we were within a little bit of the other team, Kobe was not going to shy away from the challenge of getting the win. He was going to take the shots.


http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

- and many former great players/coches have Kobe a Top 5 alltime player....

- Barkley , Shaq said he was the GOALakers , as did Magic and West

- please show us your proof as to why Kobe is not the best player of his generation...

- You are by far the worst type of poster in the Forum...you call others names ...yet you give nothing except tired ol' reasons why Kobe needs to be slighted....silly and sad.

- Please give something to teh discussion besides 1rst grade name calling...if not, then get back in my pocket son.

[andgar923]

Imagine what MJ's stats (efficiency) would look like if he had anywhere near an all star center?

Imagine the efficiency due to the lack of double teams. His assists would also go up as he'd have somebody who'll finish at the rim with ease. His defense would also improve since he'd have somebody in the lane to block shots, or at the very least disrupt. Some will say that rebounds will decline, but I think they'd stay around the same since the big guy will draw attention on that end as well.

So updated (theoretical) stats if MJ played with an all star center:

30 pts 52% fg 8 assists 6 rebounds 2.5 stls 1.0 blk

CAREER AVG

Mj would be able to maintain his efficiency due to the less pressure he'd receive. I think MJ playing without an all star center or dominant big man is something that always gets overlooked, and the most amazing aspect of his career. He spent his entire career playing with this type of pressure, from beginning to the end.

Amazing.

[AlphaWolf24]

Imagine what MJ's stats (efficiency) would look like if he had anywhere near an all star center?

Imagine the efficiency due to the lack of double teams. His assists would also go up as he'd have somebody who'll finish at the rim with ease. His defense would also improve since he'd have somebody in the lane to block shots, or at the very least disrupt. Some will say that rebounds will decline, but I think they'd stay around the same since the big guy will draw attention on that end as well.

So updated (theoretical) stats if MJ played with an all star center:

30 pts 52% fg 8 assists 6 rebounds 2.5 stls 1.0 blk

CAREER AVG

Mj would be able to maintain his efficiency due to the less pressure he'd receive. I think MJ playing without an all star center or dominant big man is something that always gets overlooked, and the most amazing aspect of his career. He spent his entire career playing with this type of pressure, from beginning to the end.

Amazing.


Bill Cartwright was an allstar:confusedshrug:

MJ's PPG would surely drop....

[caliman]

Bill Cartwright was an allstar:confusedshrug:

MJ's PPG would surely drop....


Dude was an All Star a full 8 years before he got to Chicago. Cut the bullsh*t.

[andgar923]

Bill Cartwright was an allstar:confusedshrug:

MJ's PPG would surely drop....
:facepalm

[Big#50]

Bill Cartwright was an allstar:confusedshrug:

MJ's PPG would surely drop....
LoL come on. Dude was done by the time he was winning rings with MJ.
Kobe has performed great in the playoffs. Finals performances fall short. Very short.

[Deuce Bigalow]

LoL come on. Dude was done by the time he was winning rings with MJ.
Kobe has performed great in the playoffs. Finals performances fall short. Very short.
Tim Duncan's Playoff average: 22.3-12-3 on 50%
Tim Duncan's Finals average: 22.7-14-3 on 47%

+2 on RPG, -3% FG

Kobe Bryant's Playoff average: 25.6-5-5 on 45%
Kobe Bryant's Finals average: 25.4-6-5 on 41%

+1 on RPG, -4% FG

If Kobe's falls short, so does Duncan's.

[Hands of Iron]

Tim Duncan's Playoff average: 22.3-12-3 on 50%
Tim Duncan's Finals average: 22.7-14-3 on 47%

+2 on RPG, -3% FG

Kobe Bryant's Playoff average: 25.6-5-5 on 45%
Kobe Bryant's Finals average: 25.4-6-5 on 41%

+1 on RPG, -4% FG

If Kobe's falls short, so does Duncan's.

It's not easy.

[EnoughSaid]

DWYANE WADE! :bowdown: :applause:

[rmt]

Tim Duncan's Playoff average: 22.3-12-3 on 50%
Tim Duncan's Finals average: 22.7-14-3 on 47%

+2 on RPG, -3% FG

Kobe Bryant's Playoff average: 25.6-5-5 on 45%
Kobe Bryant's Finals average: 25.4-6-5 on 41%

+1 on RPG, -4% FG

If Kobe's falls short, so does Duncan's.

Yeah, like Duncan won his rings playing beside the MDE, top 10 player Shaq. Like DRob in 99 and 03, Parker in 03 and 05 and Manu in 03 were capable of drawing anywhere near the attention that Shaq in his peak years did. Duncan was the Spur getting double-teamed and drawing the defensive attention - like Shaq - while Kobe was left to do his thing.


Fan vote??.....so who is supposed to vote?...

you are basically saying " It doesn't matter what 99% of the basketball community thinks".....what eally matters is 1% of the biased sport writers etc think??...and who's to say ty don't vote Kobe #1....Sporting News voted him player of the decade also....so neener...neener...neener...

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg


Do you not see that in this same poll, Lebron James garnered 17% of the vote as Player of the Decade (00-09) - 4% over Shaq who had won 4 rings in that time period and 9% over Duncan who had won 3 rings in that time period. So Lebron who at that time had been swept in 1 Final and won 1 MVP vs a 1 MVP/3 FMVPs and a 2 MVPs/2 FMVPs who together were in 8 out of the 10 Finals was "better" than them. Lebron hadn't even played for one third of the decade. So much for the logic and common sense of these fans - this poll is nothing more than a popularity contest.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Yeah, like Duncan won his rings playing beside the MDE, top 10 player Shaq. Like DRob in 99 and 03, Parker in 03 and 05 and Manu in 03 were capable of drawing anywhere near the attention that Shaq in his peak years did. Duncan was the Spur getting double-teamed and drawing the defensive attention - like Shaq - while Kobe was left to do his thing.
What about 2008-2010? That's 3 Finals in a row, just 1 shy of Duncan's 4.

'08-'10 Finals: 28.7 PPG | 6.2 RPG | 5.2 | 41.3 FG%

[Hands of Iron]

What about 2008-2010? That's 3 Finals in a row, just 1 shy of Duncan's 4.

'08-'10 Finals: 28.7 PPG | 6.2 RPG | 5.2 | 41.3 FG%

Deuce, I'm surprised you aren't using your TS% metric. I haven't really warmed up to it but I could see at least listing both. I think it'll always be important to know how efficient a player is as a scorer from the field and the field alone.

Shaq In the Finals:

1995: 28 ppg on 61% TS
2000: 38 ppg on 58% TS
2001: 33 ppg on 57% TS
2002: 36 ppg on 64% TS
2004: 27 ppg on 61% TS

:confusedshrug:

[magnax1]

I never actually realized how many finals Magic was in. I mean, I already knew, but I've just never seen it listed out like that.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Deuce, I'm surprised you aren't using your TS% metric. I haven't really warmed up to it but I could see at least listing both. I think it'll always be important to know how efficient a player is as a scorer from the field and the field alone.

Shaq In the Finals:

1995: 28 ppg on 61% TS
2000: 38 ppg on 58% TS
2001: 33 ppg on 57% TS
2002: 36 ppg on 64% TS
2004: 27 ppg on 61% TS

:confusedshrug:
'08: 50.5 TS%
'09: 52.5 TS%
'10: 52.8 TS%

Kobe wasn't that efficient, but neither was Duncan his last 2 Finals

'05: 47.1 TS%
'07: 48.3 TS%

BTW, here's a website with TS% http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

Click on year so it's categorized and it's easy to find what you're looking for post '91.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

'08: 50.5 TS%
'09: 52.5 TS%
'10: 52.8 TS%

Kobe wasn't that efficient, but neither was Duncan his last 2 Finals

'05: 47.1 TS%
'07: 48.3 TS%

BTW, here's a website with TS% http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=9646

Click on year so it's categorized and it's easy to find what you're looking for post '91.

Duncan brings much more to the game than Kobe outside of scoring. It's not all about scoring.

[Hands of Iron]

'04 Shaq = 27 ppg on 61% TS
'04 Kobe = 23 ppg on 46% TS
'05 Duncan = 22 ppg on 47% TS


That Detroit defense is no joke, is it? :D

Shaq ragdolls those mother****ers in 2000-2002. :oldlol:

[longtime lurker]

Kobrick with two sub 40% Finals series. :oldlol:

Yet neither of them is as bad as Lebron's 2011 finals :lol

[DatAsh]

Pretty great list. Just goes to show using just finals data can be misleading though. Kobe clearly played against the toughest teams (defensively) in the finals. Not taking anything away of course..as Lebron dominated the Magic statistically. Just showing one side of the ball always makes for a limited discussion I think.

Jordan's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Lakers 105.0
Trail Blazers 104.2
Suns 106.7
Sonics 102.1
Jazz 104.0
Jaz 105.4
Average 104.6

Lebron's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Thunder 103.2
Mavs 105
Spurs 99.9
Average 102.7

Kobe's Opponents (Defensive Rating)
Pacers 103.6
Sixers 98.9
Nets 99.5
Pistons 95.4
Celtics 98.9
Orlando 101.9
Celtics 103.8
Average 100.3

Jordan played against some great offensive, but clearly lacking defensive teams. The one time he played against an amazing defender in Payton his number's were well off what the rest of his averages are. Just food for thought...i know this data wouldn't change anyone's opinions about anything. I think Kobe is the most ineffective and has the worst 'cool off game' of the three. However, I think the #'s are a bit misleading on the talent they played against. Against subpar defensively rated teams his #'s are much better. Last season the difference of 4 points (from 100 to 104) was the defense of the Miami Heat versus the defense of the Toronto Raptors. Simply put, the league as a whole has improved miles on the defensive end (and to be honest probably lost a bit on the offensive end). The eye test, and the statistics agree to me. I watch old games and though they have hard fouls there is quite a bit of Suns style basketball going on. Just layups galore and poorly contested shots.

I appreciate the effort and interesting angle you've taken. I'm going to paraphrase what I wrote in another thread similar to this one.

DRtg is actually a pretty decent tool for comparing team defense within the same year. It's not very accurate for comparing defenses from one team in one year to another team in a different year, especially if those years are more than a couple years apart, but for single season comparisons, it's by far the best team defensive measurement stat available.

Unfortunately, for the kind of comparison you're trying to make here, Drtg kind of falls on its face. The reason it works within a single season is that all the teams are standing on common ground, they're playing against the same teams,at least to an extent, and doing so on a nightly basis trends to level the playing field.

Comparing ORtg or DRtg across eras is almost impossible, and you can't really expect accurate results when doing so. Offensive and defensive structures change over the years, and there's really no way to determine whether or not a lower Drtg is due to an improving defense, or a declining offense.

The fact that the early 2000 Wizards have a better Drtg than the early 90s Bulls despite not even being in the same defensive class as those Bulls teams aught to hint at the fact that comparing the statistic across eras is inherently flawed, unless you want to try and argue that Jordan's Wizards were better than Jordan's Bulls(which would be silly). You would think that it being a per possession stat would do a fair job of equalizing the era bias, unfortunately that's not really the case. There also seems to be some confusion as to what comparing that stat across eras actually tells us. For instance, Jordan's Wizards having a lower defensive rating than Jordan's Bulls tells us that the 2002 Wizards did a better job of limiting points allowed on a per possession basis against the offenses that they faced than the 1992 Bulls did against the offenses that they faced. What it doesn't tell us is that the 2002 Wizards were better at limiting points allowed on a per possession basis in a general sense. Those two teams played against completely different offenses, and their defensive ratings are calculated as such.

It gets even less valid when trying to break it down further and use the statistic to say that a particular player faced tougher defenses than a different player from another era. Not only do you have to contend with the fact that those Drtg and Ortg are calculated against completely different teams, but those Drtg and Ortg can vary drastically from within, in the sense that scoring from the perimeter might be tougher in one area, yet interior scoring might be easier in that same era. Drtg measures defense as a whole. Team A might have terrible interior defense, but superb perimeter defense. Team B might have terrible perimeter defense, but superb interior defense. Their Drtgs could theoretically be the same, but Team A would be much more difficult for a player like Kobe/Jordan/Lebron to score against.

Unfortunately for statisticians, the sad truth of the matter is that there really doesn't exist any good statistic for comparing team defense across eras(Drtg is there best there is, and it's pretty terrible), and trying to further compare the strengths of defenses that an individual player faced across eras is even more unreliable.

The best way for measuring what you seem to be trying to measure is still they eye test unfortunately, and I don't see that changing any time soon. Oddly enough, the point you seem to be trying to make probably has some truth to it. I do think Kobe has faced stiffer defensive competition in his finals tenures than Michael Jordan did. Jordan's biggest defensive obstacles tended to come in the preceding rounds(Knicks, Pistons).

[Deuce Bigalow]

'04 Shaq = 27 ppg on 61% TS
'04 Kobe = 23 ppg on 46% TS
'05 Duncan = 22 ppg on 47% TS


That Detroit defense is no joke, is it? :D

Shaq ragdolls those mother****ers in 2000-2002. :oldlol:
Wow.

The '08 Celtics defense was great as well

'08 Kobe: 25.7 ppg on 50.5% TS (Finals)
'08 Lebron: 26.7 ppg on 48.0% TS (Conference Semifinals)
'08 Joe Johnson: 20.0 ppg on 44.4% TS (1st Round)

[Hands of Iron]

Wow.

The '08 Celtics defense was great as well

'08 Kobe: 25.7 ppg on 50.5% TS (Finals)
'08 Lebron: 26.7 ppg on 48.0% TS (Conference Semifinals)
'08 Joe Johnson: 20.0 ppg on 44.4% TS (1st Round)

How about looking at Finals series in which the player was the #1 option? How do Kobe's averages pan out in that scenario? Including his 2000 Finals seems a bit ridiculous especially, like Shaq in 2006 when it was clearly Dwyane Wade's team. Should we punish Kareem for 1987, 1988, etc?

First five Finals (24 games):

32.6 PPG | 13.8 RPG | 3.6 APG | 2.4 BPG | 60.1% FG | 59.6% TS

[Deuce Bigalow]

How about looking at Finals series in which the player was the #1 option? How do Kobe's averages pan out in that scenario? Including his 2000 Finals seems a bit ridiculous especially, like Shaq in 2006 when it was clearly Dwyane Wade's team. Should we punish Kareem for 1987, 1988, etc?

First five Finals (24 games):

32.6 PPG | 13.8 RPG | 3.6 APG | 2.4 BPG | 60.1% FG | 59.6% TS
Kobe 2008-2010 Finals (18 games):

28.9 PPG | 6.7 RPG | 5.2 APG | 2.1 SPG | 41.3% FG | 52.4% TS

[AlonzoGOAT]

Wade>Kobe :applause: surprised since kobe should of blown up more on the shit magic and injured celtics :lol

[Big#50]

Tim Duncan's Playoff average: 22.3-12-3 on 50%
Tim Duncan's Finals average: 22.7-14-3 on 47%

+2 on RPG, -3% FG

Kobe Bryant's Playoff average: 25.6-5-5 on 45%
Kobe Bryant's Finals average: 25.4-6-5 on 41%

+1 on RPG, -4% FG

If Kobe's falls short, so does Duncan's.
Duncan won two finals with his defense. 03 and 07. It's not all about stats.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wade>Kobe :applause: surprised since kobe should of blown up more on the shit magic and injured celtics :lol
Wade played against the Mavericks 2/3 times

09 Magic were the #1 Defense in the League.
10 Celtics were the #5 Defense in the League.

[LongLiveTheKing]

D-Wade is a beast in the finals, clearly better than Kobe in the Finals.
I would expect Lebrons stats to be worse but their okay, probably get better.
Kobe 41% lol

[Pointguard]

Originally Posted by Hands of Iron

MAGIC JOHNSON
1987: 26 ppg, 8 rpg, 13 apg, 54% FG (Finals MVP)

Very underrated all time great finals


Very underrated all time great finals (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=241681)


Yeah one of the best finals ever. He was all over court on defense as well. Nevermind being thoroughly involved in like 90% of the offense. In the final game Boston had totally caved in on Magic, in the first half and seemingly messed his rhythm up. In the third quarter he went off and was accountable for 28 of the Laker's 30 points and the game was won. He rarely turned the ball over.

[Odinn]

Tim Duncan's Playoff average: 22.3-12-3 on 50%
Tim Duncan's Finals average: 22.7-14-3 on 47%

+2 on RPG, -3% FG

Kobe Bryant's Playoff average: 25.6-5-5 on 45%
Kobe Bryant's Finals average: 25.4-6-5 on 41%

+1 on RPG, -4% FG

If Kobe's falls short, so does Duncan's.
How many times Kobe dominated the Finals? Duncan dominated 1999 Finals and 2003 Finals.
How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked? Kobe choked in 2004 Finals and underperformed in 2008 finals.

Duncan elevated his game in 1999 and 2003 finals compared to his games against the WC. His ppg wasn't off the charts but he dominated both ends of the floor.
He was back from an injury in 2005 playoffs. He wasn't 100%. His efficiency sucked, yes. But he still led his team to the title against a great defensive team.
In 2007 Finals, his first 2 games were great and last 2 games were awful.

The only good thing about Kobe's performence in 2000 Finals, game 4. Other 5 games 10 ppg at .302 fg.
Aside from his lower efficiency, his performance in 2001 Finals wasn't bad.
2002 Finals is the only finals during threepeat can be called good without a doubt.
2004 Finals, one of the biggest choke-jobs from a superstar.
2008 Finals, underperformed. I wouldn't call like that but it can be called a choke-job.
2009 Finals, only closest Finals performance by Kobe to "domination".
2010 Finals, I'd say average. It was like Duncan's 2005 playoffs. He did well against the WC and not that well in the Finals.



It's not easy.
It's not easy.:cheers:

[Odinn]

Wade played against the Mavericks 2/3 times

09 Magic were the #1 Defense in the League.
10 Celtics were the #5 Defense in the League.
And Kobe was guarded by D. Howard who made that team #1 Defense in the L?:roll:

[Odinn]

Kobe 2008-2010 Finals (18 games):

28.9 PPG | 6.7 RPG | 5.2 APG | 2.1 SPG | 41.3% FG | 52.4% TS
You sounded like it was comparable to
32.6 PPG | 13.8 RPG | 3.6 APG | 2.4 BPG | 60.1% FG | 59.6% TS
:roll: :roll:

[alleykat]

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/1600/kobepotd.jpg

- and many former great players/coches have Kobe a Top 5 alltime player....

- Barkley , Shaq said he was the GOALakers , as did Magic and West

- please show us your proof as to why Kobe is not the best player of his generation...

- You are by far the worst type of poster in the Forum...you call others names ...yet you give nothing except tired ol' reasons why Kobe needs to be slighted....silly and sad.

- Please give something to teh discussion besides 1rst grade name calling...if not, then get back in my pocket son.


this is irrelevant....look at lebrons percentage. this is 2009 and hadn't even one a chip...

ahahaha look at garnett being even in there lol

[Odinn]

As for thread title, after the merger Kareem had only 2 all-time great Finals series out of 7 but he should be mentioned.

1980; 33.4/13.6/3.2/4.6 on .549 fg .578 ts (age 33)
1982; 18.0/7.7/3.8/3.2 on .531 fg .545 ts (age 35)
1983; 23.5/7.5/3.0/2.3 on .552 fg .599 ts (not bad for a 36 year-old)
1984; 26.6/7.4/4.4/2.1 on .481 fg .519 ts (not bad for a 37 year-old)
1985; 25.7/9.0/5.2/1.5 on .604 fg .629 ts (one of the greatest Finals ever if we consider he was at his 38.)
1987; 21.7/7.3/0.8/2.5 on .510 fg .552 ts (age 40)
1988; 13.1/4.1/1.0/1.1 on .414 fg .463 ts (age 41)

22.7/7.9/3.0/2.4 on .520 fg .554 ts - Combined
25.3/8.9/4.0/2.7 on .538 fg .568 ts - Combined except 1987&1988

:bowdown: :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

You sounded like it was comparable to
32.6 PPG | 13.8 RPG | 3.6 APG | 2.4 BPG | 60.1% FG | 59.6% TS
:roll: :roll:
:facepalm

He was asking what Kobe's numbers were a a 1st option.

Don't worry, Duncan isn't even close.

[Odinn]

:facepalm

He was asking what Kobe's numbers were a a 1st option.

Don't worry, Duncan isn't even close.
If Kobe had an argument, you would write some other things. But you wrote only numbers without a text, without givin credit to Shaq. That's what I was talking about.:oldlol:

Duncan 22.7 / 14.4 / 3.4 / 3.0 on .472 fg .525 ts 4 Finals 4 Titles
Kobe 28.9 / 6.7 / 5.2 / 2.1 on .413 fg .524 ts 3 Finals 2 Titles

Don't worry, we all know you're a stan which is uncontrolled one while discussing about Kobe-Shaq or Kobe-Duncan.:oldlol:

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many times Kobe dominated the Finals? Duncan dominated 1999 Finals and 2003 Finals.
How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked? Kobe choked in 2004 Finals and underperformed in 2008 finals.

Duncan elevated his game in 1999 and 2003 finals compared to his games against the WC. His ppg wasn't off the charts but he dominated both ends of the floor.
He was back from an injury in 2005 playoffs. He wasn't 100%. His efficiency sucked, yes. But he still led his team to the title against a great defensive team.
In 2007 Finals, his first 2 games were great and last 2 games were awful.

The only good thing about Kobe's performence in 2000 Finals, game 4. Other 5 games 10 ppg at .302 fg.
Aside from his lower efficiency, his performance in 2001 Finals wasn't bad.
2002 Finals is the only finals during threepeat can be called good without a doubt.
2004 Finals, one of the biggest choke-jobs from a superstar.
2008 Finals, underperformed. I wouldn't call like that but it can be called a choke-job.
2009 Finals, only closest Finals performance by Kobe to "domination".
2010 Finals, I'd say average. It was like Duncan's 2005 playoffs. He did well against the WC and not that well in the Finals.



It's not easy.:cheers:
2002 Western Conference Semifinals

Game 3
4th Quarter: Lakers up 74-71

Kobe Bryant: 11 points, 5-5 FG, 1-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 9 points, 4-9 FG
Shaquille O'Neal: 0 points, 0-4 FG

Lakers win 99-89

Game 4
4th Quarter: Spurs up 75-67

Kobe Bryant: 12 points, 3-6 FG, 4-6 FT, Hit game-winner
ENTIRE SPURS TEAM: 10 points
Tim Duncan: 3 points, 0-2 FG, 3-7 FT, Missed Game-winner............CHOKE

Lakers win 87-85

Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 62-61

Kobe Bryant: 10 points, 4-7 FG, 2-2 FT
Tim Duncan: 5 points, 2-5 FG, 1-1 FT

Lakers won 93-87

Lakers won the series 4-1

2008 Western Conference Finals

Game 1
4th Quarter: Spurs up 72-65

Kobe Bryant: 14 points, 6-8 FG, 2-2 FT, Hit FG to give LA 87-85 lead with 23.9 sec
Tim Duncan: 8 points, 2-5 FG, 4-5 FT

Lakers win 89-85

Game 5
4th Quarter: Lakers up 67-63

Kobe: 17 points, 6-10 FG, 4-4 FT
Tim Duncan: 7 points, 1-4 FG, 4-6 FT

Lakers win 100-92

Lakers win the series 4-1


Kobe has destroyed your team the past decade, and I didn't even mention his best series in '01 averaging 33-7-7 to Duncan's 23-12-4, while LA swept SA without HCA :oldlol:

[Odinn]

Kobe has destroyed your team the past decade, and I didn't even mention his best series :oldlol:
We are discussing about Finals performances and you brought up Duncan-Kobe H2H?:oldlol:


It's from your #8 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops thread.



Kobe got it!
Why didn't you make bold Duncan's ppg in 2002 series?
You leave out 1999 series because Kobe wasn't in his prime and listed 2008 while it was Duncan's -arguably- last season in his prime. IMO, he was still top 5 player in the L but he was not in his prime any more.
Obvious agenda is obvious.



As for Lakers-Spurs series;
1999 - Duncan (Spurs won the series because they were the better team.)
2001 - Kobe (Lakers won the series because they were the better team. Also D. Anderson should be Kobe's main matchup but he was injured. Kobe went up against old perimeter players.)
2002 - Duncan (Lakers won the series because they were the better team.)
2003 - Duncan (What Duncan did was exceptional.)
2004 - Almost a tie, slightly Kobe coz he won the round. (Lakers won the series because they were the better team.)
2008 - Kobe (Lakers won the series because they were the better team.)

Duncan dominated 2003 Spurs-Lakers series like Kobe dominated in 2008. But Duncan won with the worse team.

As for Kobe dominating 2001 WCF;

D. Ferry; Age:34 - MPG:25.5
T. Porter; Age:37 - MPG:24.5
A. Johnson; Age:35 - MPG:22.3
S. Elliot; Age:32 - MPG:19.0

Also Derek Anderson (starting sg and only 15+ ppg Spur along side Duncan) was injured. He played 41 minutes for entire series. Kobe did 45/10 against D. Ferry, T. Porter and A. Johnson. You can see their ages above.

PS: Just to be clear; Kobe was a monster in that series. He dominated. But claiming a prime Spurs? That's just wrong.

Kobe faced the Spurs 4 times in his prime but only in 2004 Duncan was on the favourite team. That was coz of the hype that the Spurs got in regular season. The Spurs were not better than the Lakers in 2004.

In 2002 DRob was injured and the Spurs had no firepower aside from Duncan. Let's reverse the scenario. Duncan and Shaq were on the same team, Kobe loses the series while playing with 34/25/4 in the last game. I can't imagine how Kobe stans whining about it.:oldlol:

Also in the same thread you never responded this;


28.6 ppg on 52.8 TS%

Fact is that Kobe get's a lot of shit for shooting pretty poorly at times in the Finals, but Duncan shot 47.1 TS% and 48.3 TS% in '05 and '07, half his Finals. And he's a big man :confusedshrug:
Duncan in NBA Finals;
22 games, 22.7 ppg 14.4 rpg 3.4 apg 3.0 bpg 0.9 spg .472 fg .699 ft .525 ts 18.1 fga 14.4 fta
I think he can be judged for being a bad Finals performer for the last 2 games of 2007 Finals. If we exclude them;
20 games, 23.7 ppg 14.7 rpg 3.4 apg 3.2 bpg 0.8 spg .486 fg .713 ft .540 ts 18.3 fga 14.7 fta

Kobe in NBA Finals;
37 games, 25.3 ppg 5.7 rpg 5.1 apg 1.8 spg 0.9 bpg .412 fg .848 ft .507 ts 21.8 fga 7.1 fta
Kobe wasn't in his prime in 2000 Finals. If we exclude them;
32 games, 26.8 ppg 2.9 rpg 5.2 apg 1.9 spg 0.8 bpg .418 fg .845 ft .518 ts 22.4 fga 7.9 fta


So?...

[Deuce Bigalow]

We are discussing about Finals performances and you brought up Duncan-Kobe H2H?:oldlol:


It's from your #8 NBA Player Of All-Time According to InsideHoops thread.



In 2002 DRob was injured and the Spurs had no firepower aside from Duncan. Let's reverse the scenario. Duncan and Shaq were on the same team, Kobe loses the series while playing with 34/25/4 in the last game. I can't imagine how Kobe stans whining about it.:oldlol:

Also in the same thread you never responded this;
You said "when has Duncan ever underperformed or choked in a playoff series"

And he has. LOL at Kobe outscoring his entire team in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

And I didn't need to respond, you made my point. Their Finals performances are not far apart.

[Deuce Bigalow]

And Kobe was guarded by D. Howard who made that team #1 Defense in the L?:roll:
Oh okay...

'99 Finals...LOCKOUT SEASON :oldlol: VS the 8th seed Knicks :roll:
'03 Finals: VS the NETS :oldlol:

[Odinn]

Oh okay...

'99 Finals...LOCKOUT SEASON :oldlol: VS the 8th seed Knicks :roll:
'03 Finals: VS the NETS :oldlol:
Still Duncan was guarded far better than kobe.:oldlol: :oldlol:

And Lockout season. Great excuse for the Lakers not getting the title.:oldlol:

[Odinn]

You said "when has Duncan ever underperformed or choked in a playoff series"

And he has. LOL at Kobe outscoring his entire team in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.

And I didn't need to respond, you made my point. Their Finals performances are not far apart.
How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked?
At least try to be accurate.:oldlol:
Duncan didn't lose a Finals series.:rolleyes:

Also, the reason of Duncan being a better Finals performer than Kobe is Kobe never dominated a Finals like Duncan did in 2003.

[Deuce Bigalow]

How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked?
At least try to be accurate.:oldlol:
Duncan didn't lose a Finals series.:rolleyes:

Also, the reason of Duncan being a better Finals performer than Kobe is Kobe never dominated a Finals like Duncan did in 2003.
He underperformed a lot. I already told you.

'05 Finals: 47.1 TS%
'07 Finals: 48.3 TS%

His team won because Manu dominated in the games they won in the '05 Finals and Robert Horry went Michael Jordan in game 5 while Duncan disapeared in the 4th Q and OT, and Parker dominated '07 Finals and the fact that they played the CAVS. Of course Duncan did help them win too, but he still underperformed.

[Odinn]

He underperformed a lot. I already told you.

'05 Finals: 47.1 TS%
'07 Finals: 48.3 TS%

His team won because Manu dominated in the games they won in the '05 Finals and Robert Horry went Michael Jordan in game 5 while Duncan disapeared in the 4th Q and OT, and Parker dominated '07 Finals and the fact that they played the CAVS. Of course Duncan did help them win too, but he still underperformed.
I've already said;
He was back from an injury in 2005 playoffs. He wasn't 100%. His efficiency sucked, yes. But he still led his team to the title against a great defensive team.
In 2007 Finals, his first 2 games were great and last 2 games were awful.


How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked?

Isn't this sentence obvious enough or can't you understand?

[rmt]

Oh okay...

'99 Finals...LOCKOUT SEASON :oldlol: VS the 8th seed Knicks :roll:
'03 Finals: VS the NETS :oldlol:

Isn't this the same NETS team with Finals and one more regular season experience that LAL beat the year before. Why don't you mock the 02 Finals then?


His team won because Manu dominated in the games they won in the '05 Finals and Robert Horry went Michael Jordan in game 5 while Duncan disapeared in the 4th Q and OT, and Parker dominated '07 Finals and the fact that they played the CAVS. Of course Duncan did help them win too, but he still underperformed.

Parker was great offensively in the 07 Finals but Spurs went with the mismatch as he was guarded by a hobbled Eric Snow and rookie Daniel Gibson. But the series was won defensively by shutting down Lebron - Bowen on the perimeter and Duncan in the paint. Once Lebron was forced to hit jump shots and thereby contained, there was no doubt that the Spurs were going to win. Just too much fire power/experience vs a contained Lebron.

Manu did play extremely well in the games they won, but he also disappeared in the games they lost. Duncan was pretty constant (just as he always is) throughout the 05 Finals except one Detroit game which was a blowout and Pop pulled the plug. Horry did pull one of his "Big Shot Rob" games in game 5 but don't pretend that he hasn't also done that for LAL.

And it was Duncan's performance in game 7 that won them the series:

He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Compare that to Kobe's game 7:

"Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team."

http://www.webcitation.org/5wfrwRtjY

"... the more I tried to push, the more it kept getting away from me.

[AlphaWolf24]

this is irrelevant....look at lebrons percentage. this is 2009 and hadn't even one a chip...

ahahaha look at garnett being even in there lol


so...Bill Russell has 11 Championships....99% of the World thinks a man with 5 less Titles is better...Bill Russell also has the FMVP named after him...



abviously the Basketball world views it in a more organic approach then just Stats

[AlphaWolf24]

How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked?
At least try to be accurate.:oldlol:
Duncan didn't lose a Finals series.:rolleyes:

Also, the reason of Duncan being a better Finals performer than Kobe is Kobe never dominated a Finals like Duncan did in 2003.


stupidest Criteria ever...

Punish a player for losing the Finals...what about punishing him for not even making the Finals...

Duncan has played like poo in the WCFinals / WCSFinals and not even gotten to teh Finals....even with a stacked team.

[Odinn]

stupidest Criteria ever...

Punish a player for losing the Finals...what about punishing him for not even making the Finals...

Duncan has played like poo in the WCFinals / WCSFinals and not even gotten to teh Finals....even with a stacked team.
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Deuce Bigalow]

I've already said;
He was back from an injury in 2005 playoffs. He wasn't 100%. His efficiency sucked, yes. But he still led his team to the title against a great defensive team.
In 2007 Finals, his first 2 games were great and last 2 games were awful.


How many times the Spurs lost a Finals series because Duncan underperformed or choked?

Isn't this sentence obvious enough or can't you understand?
Winning or losing is decided by which team plays better.

I already told you he underperformed in half of his Finals INDIVIDAULLY, but his team didn't lose because they are not that dependent on Duncan those years. They don't ask him to score 30 points a night. Manu and Parker did their thing.

[swi7ch]

Jordan = GOAT of GOATs

[Deuce Bigalow]

Isn't this the same NETS team with Finals and one more regular season experience that LAL beat the year before. Why don't you mock the 02 Finals then?



Parker was great offensively in the 07 Finals but Spurs went with the mismatch as he was guarded by a hobbled Eric Snow and rookie Daniel Gibson. But the series was won defensively by shutting down Lebron - Bowen on the perimeter and Duncan in the paint. Once Lebron was forced to hit jump shots and thereby contained, there was no doubt that the Spurs were going to win. Just too much fire power/experience vs a contained Lebron.

Manu did play extremely well in the games they won, but he also disappeared in the games they lost. Duncan was pretty constant (just as he always is) throughout the 05 Finals except one Detroit game which was a blowout and Pop pulled the plug. Horry did pull one of his "Big Shot Rob" games in game 5 but don't pretend that he hasn't also done that for LAL.

And it was Duncan's performance in game 7 that won them the series:

He was the fulcrum of virtually every key play down the stretch.

"His complete game is so sound, so fundamnetal, so unnoticed at times, because if he didn't score, people think, 'Well, he didn't do anything,'" Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said. "But he was incredible and he was the force that got it done for us."

"You follow your leader," Spurs guard Tony Parker said. "Timmy is the leader of the team, and he just carried us tonight."

"He put his team on his shoulders and carried them to a championship," Pistons center Ben Wallace said. "That's what the great players do."

"You could tell when he caught the ball, how much more physical he was, getting in position and bumping and grinding and getting shots and making sure he got toward the rim, so that when people came at him he was in good position to open up a teammate," Popovich said.

"A lot of the shots they made, open shots, came as a result of us having a hard time guarding him," Brown said. "That's why he's such a great player."

"Rasheed was strapped all game," Brown said. "If you don't have your big people with the ability to play aggressively on Duncan, you've got no shot."

http://web.archive.org/web/20090219212308/http://www.nba.com/games/20050623/DETSAS/recap.html

Compare that to Kobe's game 7:

"Ron Artest was the most valuable player tonight," Phil Jackson said. "He brought life to our team."

http://www.webcitation.org/5wfrwRtjY

"... the more I tried to push, the more it kept getting away from me.”

"... I wanted it so bad, and sometimes when you want it so bad, it slips away from you. My guys picked me up.” - Kobe

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2010061713
Kobe's giving props.

His team really helped in through the first 3 quarters than Kobe went to work scoring 10 in the 4th.
there wouldn't be a Game 7 if he had at least some help in Game 5.


Duncan - '05 Finals Game 7
25 points on 27 field goal attempts
11 rebounds
3 assists
2 blocks
0 steals
5 turnovers
10-27 shooting
5-6 freethrows
0-0 3pt attempts
42 minutes
4th quarter: 5 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 3 turnovers

Kobe - '10 Finals Game 7
23 points on 24 field goal attempts
15 rebounds
2 assists
0 blocks
1 steal
4 turnovers
6-24 shooting
11-15 freethrows
0-6 3pt attempts
45 minutes
4th quarter: 10 points, 4 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 turnover

Very similar.

Manu Ginobili in that game 23-5-4 on 8-13 FG, half Duncan's FGA and he was 2 points shy.
Manu had 11 points in the 4th Quarter, the most in that Quarter.

[Hands of Iron]

Jordan = GOAT of GOATs

28/13/6/3 60% FG 61% TS
38/17/2/3 61% FG 58% TS
33/16/5/3 57% FG 58% TS
36/12/4/3 60% FG 64% TS
27/11/2/1 63% FG 62% TS

[DatAsh]

28/13/6/3 60% FG 61% TS
38/17/2/3 61% FG 58% TS
33/16/5/3 57% FG 58% TS
36/12/4/3 60% FG 64% TS
27/11/2/1 63% FG 62% TS

Could you add the TS% in the original post?

[Hands of Iron]

Could you add the TS% in the original post?

That is going to take some time. I had to calculate the Total finals averages because these things just aren't as 'out there' as season or playoff stats. They couldn't be unless I didn't look around enough because people are expressing surprise like this stuff wasn't known, easily accessible information. Maybe if Deuce helps me :lol I've gotta go back and look at all of their Total Points, FGA's, FTAs for each player, each series. Dont think TS is listed on the composite box scores either. I had Shaq's because he's a player of interest at the moment.

[EnoughSaid]

Wade's 2006 Finals >>>>>> any of Kobe's finals appearances.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Wade's 2006 Finals >>>>>> any of Kobe's finals appearances.
2006 Finals*

[EnoughSaid]

2006 Finals*

He absolutely took over the series by HIMSELF. Kobe hasn't done that in the Finals, and never ever will.

[Deuce Bigalow]

He absolutely took over the series by HIMSELF. Kobe hasn't done that in the Finals, and never ever will.
Kobe's helped LA win 5 of them. I'm fine with that.

[Hands of Iron]

Jordan's TS% added to the OP.

[DatAsh]

That is going to take some time. I had to calculate the Total finals averages because these things just aren't as 'out there' as season or playoff stats. They couldn't be unless I didn't look around enough because people are expressing surprise like this stuff wasn't known, easily accessible information. Maybe if Deuce helps me :lol I've gotta go back and look at all of their Total Points, FGA's, FTAs for each player, each series. Dont think TS is listed on the composite box scores either. I had Shaq's because he's a player of interest at the moment.

Gotcha. Don't worry about it if it's too much trouble, what you've provided so far should be plenty.

[DatAsh]

Jordan's TS% added to the OP.

Might as well add Shaq's as well since you already have it.

[NugzHeat3]

Hey Hands of Iron, are you the poster BringYourJs by any chance?

[BlackVVaves]

Jordan's TS% added to the OP.

Why not just add each player's TS%?

Good thread BTW.

[Hands of Iron]

Is there a reason TS% wasn't displayed for players like Kobe and Bird in the OP?

Just getting around to adding them for everybody.

[BlackVVaves]

Just getting around to adding them for everybody.

No diggity.

Shaq and Jordan clearly in a class of their own in terms of Finals performers. The fact Shaq didn't win 1 or 2 more MVPs is a disgrace (Though the way he completely turned around not just a team, but a franchise and its entire fanbase was quite deserving, Nash winning in 2005 really ****ed everything up).

[Deuce Bigalow]

Added Jordan, Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Duncan and Hakeem. Not too thrilled to go back over all nine of Magic's appearances. I'm doing all kinds of other stuff in between this. :lol
Kobe's is 51% TS btw if you want to add it.

[funnystuff]

Yet neither of them is as bad as Lebron's 2011 finals :lol
Yet Lebron shot almost 10% better in the so called 'worst finals performance by a superstar.' :oldlol:

[ripthekik]

I want to see some 4th quarter stats by these "ATG's" as well
More interesting to see how the all time great's perform on the world's biggest stages on the most intense quarter of the game.

[jlip]

I really think that Magic gets underrated for the all time greatness of some of his Finals performances. It's important to understand that his role and what allows him to dominate is different from what we see from most players, especially scorers. Most scorers are seen as dominant when their own stats reflect that (i.e. ppg). On the other hand Magic's role, especially pre- '87, was to facilitate an offense and to improve the stats of his teammates. So often, he dominates when his teammates dominate. He can have a 18/7/12 finals and actually be as dominant as a 30+ppg player because he controlled the tempo of the whole series and ensured that his teammates performed to their maximum abilities. I'm always reminded of Dr.J's comments about Magic after game 6 of the 1982 Finals:

"He is the only player who can take three shots and still dominate a game".

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016111.html

[NUPE_1911]

Just more proof that Wade has been better than Kobe. This would be in Wade's favor, over Kobe, even more if steals and blocks were taken into account.

[NUPE_1911]

Just more proof that Wade has been better than Kobe. This would be in Wade's favor, over Kobe, even more if steals and blocks were taken into account.



:cheers:

[Young X]

People always talk about his finals in the 1st 3-peat, but Jordans '97 finals is underrated, he averaged 32/7/6 on 46%, Game winner in game 1, one missed Pippen layup from a triple double in game 2, flu game and game winner in game 5, and a game winning assist to Kerr in game 6.

[Hands of Iron]

People always talk about his finals in the 1st 3-peat, but Jordans '97 finals is underrated, he averaged 32/7/6 on 46%, Game winner in game 1, one missed Pippen layup from a triple double in game 2, flu game and game winner in game 5, and a game winning assist to Kerr in game 6.

No doubt.

[kizut1659]

No doubt.

Yeah his 1998 finals were not good though - 43% shooting and 2(!) assists. Everyone of course remembers his last play, but even that is tained as he DID push off Russell.

[kizut1659]

He absolutely took over the series by HIMSELF.

Are you kidding me? Its the most infamous finals series ever given all the phony calls Wade got! There is a reason 2006 championship is rarely brought up - its to this day a stain on the NBA, alongside the 2002 WCF.

[Hands of Iron]

Yeah his 1998 finals were not good though - 43% shooting and 2(!) assists. Everyone of course remembers his last play, but even that is tained as he DID push off Russell.

Yeah, though '98 wasn't pretty it was all about getting the job done at any cost. Nobody seems to remember Jordan shot 15-35 in the final game and nobody really cares. Pippen was also ailing. They won pretty ugly, but it's difficult to maintain the same level of play after 5 TITLES and faced with a team absolutely starving for one, whom they'd just got through the previous season. When I think of Jordan in the Finals, I'm probably thinking first three-peat around 90% of the time anyway. He carried an even larger load for those teams and performed at GOAT level. His legend was already cemented after those imo.

[Odinn]

Yeah, though '98 wasn't pretty it was all about getting the job done at any cost. Nobody seems to remember Jordan shot 15-35 in the final game and nobody really cares. Pippen was also ailing. They won pretty ugly, but it's difficult to maintain the same level of play after 5 TITLES and faced with a team absolutely starving for one, whom they'd just got through the previous season. When I think of Jordan in the Finals, I'm probably thinking first three-peat around 90% of the time anyway. He carried an even larger load for those teams and performed at GOAT level. His legend was already cemented after those imo.
Jordan's and Bulls' performance weren't pretty. But if Michael Jordan was a Green Lantern, he would be better than even Hal Jordan. Jordan, Pippen and Rodman showed us how much willpower they had to win that title.

[Da_Realist]

Yeah, though '98 wasn't pretty it was all about getting the job done at any cost. Nobody seems to remember Jordan shot 15-35 in the final game and nobody really cares. Pippen was also ailing. They won pretty ugly, but it's difficult to maintain the same level of play after 5 TITLES and faced with a team absolutely starving for one, whom they'd just got through the previous season. When I think of Jordan in the Finals, I'm probably thinking first three-peat around 90% of the time anyway. He carried an even larger load for those teams and performed at GOAT level. His legend was already cemented after those imo.

It wasn't the best of all time, but it was more than respectable considering he carried the Bulls most of the year without Pippen (at near 35 years old) and went into Game 6 with Pippen severely limited by a bad back and Harper sick from a stomach virus.

He spent the game rationing out his energy to last the full game.

So it was clear from the beginning of the game that Jordan would carry the team. For much of the first half, Jordan had to ration his energy on defense. At one point Tex Winter had even turned to Phil Jackson and said, "Michael's giving defense a lick and a promise." and Jackson had replied "Well, Tex, he does need a bit of a rest."
On offense, Michael Jordan was carrying the load. He was rationing out his energy as best he could, playing less defense and doing less rebounding than normal, but at the half he had twenty-three points, on nine of nineteen from the field (three of six on his threes), and two of three from the line. -- Playing for Keeps, pg 393-394

"What he's done in this fourth quarter...You see the 16 points, he got about a minute's rest!" -- Doug Collins
"That's what makes Jordan so smart. He rested on defense so he would have enough energy down the stretch to perform." -- Isiah Thomas

This series showed a different side than the blitzkrieg he put on display in some of the other Finals. Stripped of a lot of his athleticism and youth, you saw more clearly how much heart he played with.

And he ended Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd02qVKLxaw#t=2h06m51s) with three clutch plays after Stockton put the Jazz up by 3 with 42 seconds to go.

[Hands of Iron]

It's funny because with Jordan it always felt like it was never in doubt. May of been my youth playing a role and not having the slightest idea the amount of work required to put in, but he made being clutch look casual. I remember the second 3-peat Bulls having a mystique of being virtually untouchable. No matter the situation or whatever they needed, Michael would just simply go do it or get it. Simple as that. They weren't going to lose, period.

[rmt]

It's funny because with Jordan it always felt like it was never in doubt. May of been my youth playing a role and not having the slightest idea the amount of work required to put in, but he made being clutch look casual. I remember the second 3-peat Bulls having a mystique of being virtually untouchable. No matter the situation or whatever they needed, Michael would just simply go do it or get it. Simple as that. They weren't going to lose, period.

I'm not a Michael Jordan fan (in fact, I don't like him at all) and was in my 30's in the 90's, but no doubt about it he had an aura of invincibility about him that went way beyond his gaudy stats. He knew and his opponents knew that he was going to win.

[tmacattack33]

Pretty great list. Just goes to show using just finals data can be misleading though. Kobe clearly played against the toughest teams (defensively) in the finals. Not taking anything away of course..as Lebron dominated the Magic statistically. Just showing one side of the ball always makes for a limited discussion I think.


Well he also had better players around him than these other guys to take the defensive focus away from him.

[kizut1659]

It wasn't the best of all time, but it was more than respectable considering he carried the Bulls most of the year without Pippen (at near 35 years old) and went into Game 6 with Pippen severely limited by a bad back and Harper sick from a stomach virus.

He spent the game rationing out his energy to last the full game.

So it was clear from the beginning of the game that Jordan would carry the team. For much of the first half, Jordan had to ration his energy on defense. At one point Tex Winter had even turned to Phil Jackson and said, "Michael's giving defense a lick and a promise." and Jackson had replied "Well, Tex, he does need a bit of a rest."
On offense, Michael Jordan was carrying the load. He was rationing out his energy as best he could, playing less defense and doing less rebounding than normal, but at the half he had twenty-three points, on nine of nineteen from the field (three of six on his threes), and two of three from the line. -- Playing for Keeps, pg 393-394

"What he's done in this fourth quarter...You see the 16 points, he got about a minute's rest!" -- Doug Collins
"That's what makes Jordan so smart. He rested on defense so he would have enough energy down the stretch to perform." -- Isiah Thomas

This series showed a different side than the blitzkrieg he put on display in some of the other Finals. Stripped of a lot of his athleticism and youth, you saw more clearly how much heart he played with.

And he ended Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd02qVKLxaw#t=2h06m51s) with three clutch plays after Stockton put the Jazz up by 3 with 42 seconds to go.

Agreed but i always thought 98 finals were more about Utah just not playing that well than Chicago's own good play. Also, don't forget about all the blown calls in game 6 - Harper's 3 that was counted after the clock expired, Eisley's 3 that was NOT counted when the clock did not expire, and Jordan's push on Russell.

[andgar923]

It wasn't the best of all time, but it was more than respectable considering he carried the Bulls most of the year without Pippen (at near 35 years old) and went into Game 6 with Pippen severely limited by a bad back and Harper sick from a stomach virus.

He spent the game rationing out his energy to last the full game.

So it was clear from the beginning of the game that Jordan would carry the team. For much of the first half, Jordan had to ration his energy on defense. At one point Tex Winter had even turned to Phil Jackson and said, "Michael's giving defense a lick and a promise." and Jackson had replied "Well, Tex, he does need a bit of a rest."
On offense, Michael Jordan was carrying the load. He was rationing out his energy as best he could, playing less defense and doing less rebounding than normal, but at the half he had twenty-three points, on nine of nineteen from the field (three of six on his threes), and two of three from the line. -- Playing for Keeps, pg 393-394

"What he's done in this fourth quarter...You see the 16 points, he got about a minute's rest!" -- Doug Collins
"That's what makes Jordan so smart. He rested on defense so he would have enough energy down the stretch to perform." -- Isiah Thomas

This series showed a different side than the blitzkrieg he put on display in some of the other Finals. Stripped of a lot of his athleticism and youth, you saw more clearly how much heart he played with.

And he ended Game 6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fd02qVKLxaw#t=2h06m51s) with three clutch plays after Stockton put the Jazz up by 3 with 42 seconds to go.

MJ do what MJ do.

*yawn*

tired of seeing him do this.

[Da_Realist]

MJ's first Finals game he gets 36 points, 8 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals and shoots 58% from the field yet no one thinks about it. Damn near 60% for a shooting guard on such a high volume? If he hit that last shot, it's considered an all time great game, but he didn't so it's forgotten. But damn... that game was fantastic.

[KG215]

MJ's first Finals game he gets 36 points, 8 rebounds, 12 assists, 3 steals and shoots 58% from the field yet no one thinks about it. Damn near 60% for a shooting guard on such a high volume? If he hit that last shot, it's considered an all time great game, but he didn't so it's forgotten. But damn... that game was fantastic.

Or, you know, if one of Grant or Pippen (especially Grant) show-up, he doesn't need to hit that 18 foot pull-up. I still consider it an incredible game. Jordan did everything he had to do in order to win. Unfortunately some his teammates were nervous and had first Finals game jitters.