10 seconds left, tied up, ball in Jordans hands. Who do you chose to defend him? [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 02:45 PM

Why are people saying Artest?

He's too slow to cover him. Hell…. Wizards MJ was giving him the business, and this was when Ron was in his physical prime.

Best answer is obviously Pip.

He would be the only one smart enough, good enough, quick enough and tall enough to defend him well.

Bron can't guard MJ, sorry.

Judging from what Marion did to him, there's no way he can defend MJ.

I'd have to say somebody from the 80s-90s with the old school rules tho. Somebody around 6'4 to stay in front of him with that much time on the clock and force him into a trap.

Glove anybody?
Mad Max?

Anybody outside of Pip will just get beat.

Artest was pretty quick in Chicago and early Indiana. And i believe there was a quote where MJ said that he wished he could have gone up against Artest's defense when he was in his prime (and MJ played with Artest a lot over the summers when he was making his Wizards comeback).

Also, not saying Lebron could guard MJ, but dismissing him as a defender and using one instance as evidence is ridiculous. Fine, go ahead and say that he didn't cover Marion that well, but he locked down Rose, Pierce, and Igoudala that year. This year he played great against Melo and Granger, and did better than Battier could do against Durant. So, I win 5-1 or 6-1.

9erempiree

08-28-2012, 02:46 PM

Or what I would do is have another guy cover Jordan.

I would have Kobe as the hawk. He can just watch MJ and prey on him and go for the steal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=739fBtFvqw4

Lakers win.

Dragonyeuw

08-28-2012, 02:47 PM

Prime T-Mac.

He would have done this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rxdSBgXJEQ

Man I miss this version of Tmac

scm5

08-28-2012, 02:47 PM

Pippen or Kobe.

Pippen was the better overall defender, but Kobe is probably one of the best single possession defenders.

HardwoodLegend

08-28-2012, 02:48 PM

Man I miss this version of Tmac

Dat chronic back pain.

I blame adidas.

andgar923

08-28-2012, 02:49 PM

Artest was pretty quick in Chicago and early Indiana.

Not saying Lebron could guard MJ, but dismissing him as a defender and using one instance as evidence is ridiculous. Fine, go ahead and say that he didn't cover Marion that well, but he locked down Rose, Pierce, and Igoudala that year. This year he played great against Melo and Granger, and did better than Battier could do against Durant. So, I win 5-1 or 6-1.

MJ was beating THAT Artest.

And you're correct about my initial Bron reaction. But I still think he's too slow. The reason he could defend the other players, is because they're inferior to MJ.

Combine Rose's speed, with Iggy's athleticism, Pierce's athleticism, Melo's post game and you can start to get close to MJ.

That's not even counting MJ's superior IQ and instinct.

But I will retract my statement, although I don't think he can defend MJ.

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 02:50 PM

Here's the quote. It's a little less about Artest's on the ball defense than i thought it was though. It's hard to tell if MJ is trying to say that he thought he in his prime vs Artest's defense would be a great match up or if he's just saying that Artest plays with passion so it wouldve been be fun to play against him while young...

"I love Ron Artest," says Michael Jordan, who developed an appreciation for his physical style when Artest broke two of Jordan's ribs the first day the two played together last summer in Chicago. "He's got so much intensity and such drive. I wish I could have played against him six years ago."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1141436/index.htm

greymatter

08-28-2012, 02:51 PM

Cooper, Pippen, or Bowen.

Meticode

08-28-2012, 02:51 PM

Steve Nash.

I want the Bulls to win, not lose. :confusedshrug:

bizil

08-28-2012, 02:53 PM

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 02:58 PM

MJ was beating THAT Artest.

And you're correct about my initial Bron reaction. But I still think he's too slow. The reason he could defend the other players, is because they're inferior to MJ.

Combine Rose's speed, with Iggy's athleticism, Pierce's athleticism, Melo's post game and you can start to get close to MJ.

That's not even counting MJ's superior IQ and instinct.

But I will retract my statement, although I don't think he can defend MJ.

Yeah. I don't either.

I like Lebron's on the ball defense and i'd give it about an 8.5 or so.

The best part of his defense though is: 1. His versatility 2. Cornerback skills off the ball, able to deny people from ever getting the ball in the first place, and 3. Close out ability and ability to protect the rim.

So on the ball he's good, but there are many many players to choose from here to go up against MJ straight up one on one before you'd get to Lebron.

AlphaWolf24

08-28-2012, 03:01 PM

magictricked

08-28-2012, 03:01 PM

Anyone mention Reggie Lewis?

Fun topic

Doesn't matter in the end. Jordan was and incredible player, almost unstopable at times. And there's more than a few guys that you can say could guard Jordan. Jordan,s not going to sink every shot and defenders no matter how good aren't going to stop him every time.

Current guys I wouldn't be afraid to put Lebron on him for one play

andgar923

08-28-2012, 03:04 PM

Yeah. I don't either.

I like Lebron's on the ball defense and i'd give it about an 8.5 or so.

The best part of his defense though is: 1. His versatility 2. Cornerback skills off the ball, able to deny people from ever getting the ball in the first place, and 3. Close out ability and ability to protect the rim.

So on the ball he's good, but there are many many players to choose from here to go up against MJ straight up one on one before you'd get to Lebron.

Not saying he's bad, but I think there are better on the ball one on one defenders like you mentioned.

In regards to Artest

andgar923

08-28-2012, 03:06 PM

Judging by watching tapes of teenage Kobe vs Prime MJ...and Young Kobe vs old MJ...

no doubt Prime Kobe would be able to guard MJ.

Kobe had the foot speed/desire to make MJ take a ill advised shot.

and on the other side...no way MJ could guard Prime Kobe....Kobe by basically anything he wants.

Are you serious?

Mj was getting mostly open looks and beating him with the first step, while Kobe was shooting mostly contested jumpers.

Mach_3

08-28-2012, 03:06 PM

I would have to say Pip would be my first choice. But damn u also got Rodman, Kobe, and Michael Cooper would could easily be my first choice. What about Bruce Bowen as well? And don't sleep on those guards 6'3 to 6'5 like Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Payton, and Clyde Frazier either.

Michael Cooper was the first thought in my head, then it went to Pippen, prime KG for some reason (i guess was thinking ridiculous length plus the extremely high Defensive IQ he has) then i went to Bowen, and for some other reason Moncrief. Then i started thinking about Frazier and a couple others.

Truthfully i don't even think i have an answer to this question now that i think about it :lol

Dragonyeuw

08-28-2012, 03:06 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AhmLH6eJPk

Rubio2Gasol

08-28-2012, 03:08 PM

Payton.

AlphaWolf24

08-28-2012, 03:10 PM

Are you serious?

Mj was getting mostly open looks and beating him with the first step, while Kobe was shooting mostly contested jumpers.

Kobe was splitting MJ and Pippen....blowing past both of em'...teenage Koas doppin 33 n limited minutes

deoyed PIP in Portland as a 20 year old....and dopped 42 on MJ in 1 hlf quarters

bballnoob1192

08-28-2012, 03:11 PM

Pippen or Kobe.

Pippen was the better overall defender, but Kobe is probably one of the best single possession defenders.

yep kobe might not be the best defender all game but in any single possession that he puts every ounce of effort into he will make his opposing player look like a scrub

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

many people use this video to support kobe as good defender, but got to say its those dedicated single possession of intense defense that gives him the edge in this kind of situation.

kennethgriffin

08-28-2012, 03:13 PM

lol lebron is not as good a 1 on 1 defender as kobe ( when he wants to go 100% )

lebron just does chase down blocks and passing lane steals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

DStebb716

08-28-2012, 03:13 PM

Johnnie Cochran

AlphaWolf24

08-28-2012, 03:19 PM

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 03:20 PM

yep kobe might not be the best defender all game but in any single possession that he puts every ounce of effort into he will make his opposing player look like a scrub

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

many people use this video to support kobe as good defender, but got to say its those dedicated single possession of intense defense that gives him the edge in this kind of situation.

You can just as easily go find videos of Wade crossing him up. I particularly remember a youtube video of Gilbert Arenas crossing him up multiple times in highlight reel fashion.

Not saying he's not a great defender, but to say something like "those dedicated single possessions are what amazes me" is basically just giving his other plays a weak excuse, chalking it up to "Eh, he wasn't trying". And that exposes faulty logic.

LBJFTW

08-28-2012, 03:25 PM

Pippen. Moreso than other elite perimeter players, he has the most experience guarding MJ on a day to day basis and would be more familiar with his tendencies than anyone else.

Jordan would also be more familar with Pippen's defensive strategy than anyone else. With that said, I still think that Pippen would be the best option. Even he would have a slim chance of stopping Jordan even if Phil Jackson himself drew up the defensive scheme for Pippen and the defense.

OmniStrife

08-28-2012, 03:30 PM

LeBron / Wade?

Dragonyeuw

08-28-2012, 03:30 PM

Jordan would also be more familar with Pippen's defensive strategy than anyone else.

Maybe, but Pippen would still have an advantage over other elite defenders because of that familiarity. So yeah, I suppose they'd be familiar with each other, but Pippen gives you as good a chance defensively as anyone else.

pauk

08-28-2012, 03:37 PM

Pippen or Lebron, they have the correct size/athleticism/IQ to make it more tougher for MJ than anybody... if Jordan blows by then especially Lebron has this amazing closeout blocking ability from any distance, against any player, including Jordan... hell you will see Lebron sometimes just for the fun of it bait you to "blow by" so he can run, takeof and block your shot from behind into the 5th row...

KB2009Champ

08-28-2012, 03:41 PM

Pippen

/thread

bukowski81

08-28-2012, 03:41 PM

Why not the guy that actually gave Jordan more trouble?? John Starks

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 03:44 PM

pauk

08-28-2012, 03:52 PM

If there is no screen than Jordan will have a tough time even just recieving the ball with Lebron on him, he is extremly quick & much bigger & stronger than MJ was... he ragdolls even the likes of Dwight or Gasol in that department http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3O94yv4vc

fpliii

08-28-2012, 03:55 PM

Pistons Rodman

delmar

08-28-2012, 03:57 PM

Michael Cooper

Boogey

08-28-2012, 03:58 PM

1. Pippen
2. Shutdownbe

glidedrxlr22

08-28-2012, 04:04 PM

MJ is too savvy for Kobe......scores easily. MJ knew he was the best, accepted the challenge, and had not one ounce of fear.

Alphawolf24 accept it.

bballer

08-28-2012, 04:05 PM

obv Lebron

bdreason

08-28-2012, 04:06 PM

Prime Payton.

jongib369

08-28-2012, 04:08 PM

Bill Russell :pimp:

Not as fast, but fast enough to keep up with him...and any speed difference might be nullified by Bills Length...GOAT clutch offense vs GOAT clutch Defense

http://www.celticstown.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bill-russell-rings-240x300.jpg

SilkkTheShocker

08-28-2012, 04:11 PM

I'll go with Kevin Durant. his length is just too crazy

So you didn't watch the finals last season?

Solid Snake

08-28-2012, 04:15 PM

bowen

bizil

08-28-2012, 04:16 PM

Michael Cooper was the first thought in my head, then it went to Pippen, prime KG for some reason (i guess was thinking ridiculous length plus the extremely high Defensive IQ he has) then i went to Bowen, and for some other reason Moncrief. Then i started thinking about Frazier and a couple others.

Truthfully i don't even think i have an answer to this question now that i think about it :lol

Prime KG is VERY INTERESTING! KG back in the day was a guy in my opinion that was capable of defending SG-C. In terms of SG, I always thought more specifically bigger swingmen in that 6'8 to 6'9 range. But MJ early in career was known as a swingman at 6'6. If any 7 footer EVER could defend MJ good it would KG. KG had the lateral quickness and game of a swingman anyway. And let's not forget he played a ton of SF early in his career. His first All Star nod came as a SF.

crisoner

08-28-2012, 04:17 PM

This is how dumb you kids are...

NOBODY MENTION SOMETHING ALREADY PROVEN AND FACTUAL.
SOMEBODY JORDAN HIMSELF SAID GAVE HIM PROBLEMS ALL THE TIME.

http://i.cdn.turner.com/nba/nba/dam/assets/120823052320-082312-joe-dumars-history-bio-story-top.jpg

Gah damn time is passing and the legend of Jordan is surpassing truth. And who ever says LeBron or Wade don't know sh*t about b-ball. Both of them are NOT lock down defenders.

Dragonyeuw

08-28-2012, 04:18 PM

TheMan

08-28-2012, 04:22 PM

For me it's either Pippen or Lebron
Throw a double team and hope Jordan passes the ball, rather have someone else beat me:lol

crisoner

08-28-2012, 04:22 PM

crisoner

08-28-2012, 04:24 PM

Again who ever say LeBron or Wade don't know sh*t about ball.

IGotACoolStory

08-28-2012, 04:26 PM

Durant ? :oldlol:

Did you not watch the Finals?

Freedom Kid7

08-28-2012, 04:26 PM

For each position
PG - The Glove. I'd like to put Fraizer, but he gambled too much on defense
SG - Dumars. Him and the Pistons gave him the most trouble ever.
SF - Pippen. Great defender, added bonus he knew Jordan's game more than his competitors
PF - Pistons Rodman. The guy was ferocious on defense in his heyday
C - Russell. His competitive spirit would make sure Jordan would have to work for every single point.

Of all those, I'd say Pippen. Dumars is a close second for all the misery the Pistons gave young MJ, but the Pistons system didn't rely on just Dumars getting to Jordan, it relied on everybody. With Pippen, he'd have the most knowledge on what Jordan could and would do. Plus he's one of the great one on one defenders.

lilgodfather1

08-28-2012, 04:29 PM

How is this even a question? How about we let the greatest defender of all time guard him...

Scottie would give him a ton of problems.

Other players I would let guard him would be LeBron from '10, Prime KG, Artest, and prime Rodman.

SourPatchKids

08-28-2012, 04:31 PM

Prime Payton.
As close as it gets.:confusedshrug:

TheMan

08-28-2012, 04:37 PM

Artest was pretty quick in Chicago and early Indiana. And i believe there was a quote where MJ said that he wished he could have gone up against Artest's defense when he was in his prime (and MJ played with Artest a lot over the summers when he was making his Wizards comeback).

Also, not saying Lebron could guard MJ, but dismissing him as a defender and using one instance as evidence is ridiculous. Fine, go ahead and say that he didn't cover Marion that well, but he locked down Rose, Pierce, and Igoudala that year. This year he played great against Melo and Granger, and did better than Battier could do against Durant. So, I win 5-1 or 6-1.
A couple of things, Rose was on a gimpy ankle that took away some of his explosiveness ( Rose had no trouble smoking past LBJ in the 2010 first round series), all LBJ was doing against Rose in the ECFs was play off Rose, inviting him to shoot and funneling Rose to his help D, it was a team effort and LBJ wasn't on Rose except a few possessions at the end of games where he could play off him and force him into jumpshots.

This crap about LBJ "locking down" Rose needs to stop, it's a myth like LBJ being able to defend all 5 positions:facepalm

TheMan

08-28-2012, 04:44 PM

Judging by watching tapes of teenage Kobe vs Prime MJ...and Young Kobe vs old MJ...

no doubt Prime Kobe would be able to guard MJ.

Kobe had the foot speed/desire to make MJ take a ill advised shot.

and on the other side...no way MJ could guard Prime Kobe....Kobe by basically anything he wants.

OTOH, Kobe takes "ill advised shots" no matter who's on him:lol

the second bolded part is just a retarded kobe stan spewing his usual ignorant crap:facepalm ,congrats idiot.

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 05:10 PM

A couple of things, Rose was on a gimpy ankle that took away some of his explosiveness ( Rose had no trouble smoking past LBJ in the 2010 first round series), all LBJ was doing against Rose in the ECFs was play off Rose, inviting him to shoot and funneling Rose to his help D, it was a team effort and LBJ wasn't on Rose except a few possessions at the end of games where he could play off him and force him into jumpshots.

This crap about LBJ "locking down" Rose needs to stop, it's a myth like LBJ being able to defend all 5 positions:facepalm

Yet Rose himself said "It's pretty hard for me when I'm being guarded by a guy who is 6 inches taller than me yet can keep up with my every move" (not the exact quote, but it was similar).

Smoke117

08-28-2012, 05:12 PM

Hmm...I'm surprised there are not more people saying Gary Payton.

He held MJ to .414 FG in the 1996 Finals. In the closing game, MJ went 5-23 on FG, and had 7 assists and 5 turnovers.

That was probably MJ's worst Finals Performance out of his 6 appearances. Looks like Payton did a good job.

That whole shit is a myth. I dislike MJ more than anyone, but frankly Payton didn't even defend MJ the first couple of games. He started out on Pippen who was ailing from various injuries and wasn't moved onto Jordan till they were down 0-2 or 0-3. He didn't hold Jordan to anything either, Jordan was just missing shots he usually makes. Go watch that series again and it's clear as day that Gary Payton was not containing anyone, but Michael Jordan was just missing shots he would usually make.

Optimus Prime

08-28-2012, 05:14 PM

Kobe Bryant
Scottie Pippen
John Starks

Edit: Forgot about Joe Dumars. Thanks for posting a ton of pictures though. :\

:kobe:

AlphaWolf24

08-28-2012, 05:19 PM

OTOH, Kobe takes "ill advised shots" no matter who's on him:lol

the second bolded part is just a retarded kobe stan spewing his usual ignorant crap:facepalm ,congrats idiot.

jordan didn't think they were ill advised shots when he ws sittin on the bench crying atfer Kobe dropped 55 on him..

did he?

did he?

ay my name...say my name!

back in my pocket kid..

TheMan

08-28-2012, 05:19 PM

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la9dxpez3E1qcjcu1o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la9dxpez3E1qcjcu1o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la9dxpez3E1qcjcu1o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la9dxpez3E1qcjcu1o1_500.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_la9dxpez3E1qcjcu1o1_500.jpg

Stupid kids know your history!!!
It's not like Dumars locked down Jordan, MJ still put up big numbers against the Pistons, it was more like the young Bulls not being ready to knock down Detroit...

CavaliersFTW

08-28-2012, 05:21 PM

Pippen had similar length actually.
7-2 wingpsan on a 6-7.5 frame

vs

7-4.75 wingspan on a 6-9 frame...

Those are their measurements. Pippen was long, but Durant is significantly longer.

AlphaWolf24

08-28-2012, 05:22 PM

It's not like Dumars locked down Jordan, MJ still put up big numbers against the Pistons, it was more like the young Bulls not being ready to knock down Detroit...

you mean ballhogging / shot jacking your way to a lost...

Mj was shooting like 28 - 30 times a game....Detrit would merk though..

EllisGW

08-28-2012, 05:23 PM

How can anyone say Kobe lol. He let Gilbert score 60 on him.

TheMan

08-28-2012, 05:23 PM

Yet Rose himself said "It's pretty hard for me when I'm being guarded by a guy who is 6 inches taller than me yet can keep up with my every move" (not the exact quote, but it was similar).
Yet LBJ himself has said that no one stops Rose, it takes a team effort...not the exact quote but something to those lines...

code green

08-28-2012, 05:25 PM

Payton and Pippen

If Tony Allen isn't biting on fakes that day, he'd be my choice for a current defender. LeBron's gotta be up there too.

CavaliersFTW

08-28-2012, 05:25 PM

Prime Kobe could stay in front of him...Kobe's longer arms would make MJ miss the pull up.
... both have a similar wingspan but technicaly MJ's were measured at 6'11.25 and Kobe's "just" 6'11... I'm sure MJ was defended by players with arms longer than that too. You can't defend a prime MJ any more than you can defend a prime Kobe - good scorers will score regardless of defense.

Vertical-24

08-28-2012, 05:27 PM

Choices you can't go wrong with:

- Scottie Pippen (one of the most versatile defenders of all-time, one of the best man-to-man of all time (imo the best) )

- Prime Rodman (severely underrated on this site as a defender, in the Bad Boy days would run guys into the dirt when playing man to man. And the guy could get into nearly anyone's head. MJ while mentally strong could even be suceptible to the Rodman Mind Game lol)

- Ron Artest (extremely gritty, physical defender. Would try to stick to MJ at all times, and is another player that loves to get into the head of the offensive player. Great choice.)

- 2000 Kobe Bryant (all jokes aside, Kobe in 2000 was one of the greatest man-to-man defenders i've ever seen. Extremely great defender with amazing lateral quickness and energy, brilliant defensive instinct. Due to Kobe's competitive nature, he would attempt to completely shut MJ down and would be a brilliant choice to defend Jordan)

EDIT: Dumars was also a good choice guys. Strong hands and great lateral quickness as-well. Put up as a good a defensive effort against Michael as anyone.

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 05:27 PM

That whole shit is a myth. I dislike MJ more than anyone, but frankly Payton didn't even defend MJ the first couple of games. He started out on Pippen who was ailing from various injuries and wasn't moved onto Jordan till they were down 0-2 or 0-3. He didn't hold Jordan to anything either, Jordan was just missing shots he usually makes. Go watch that series again and it's clear as day that Gary Payton was not containing anyone, but Michael Jordan was just missing shots he would usually make.

Well that actually makes it more impressive than. Because MJ (at least statistically) played worse in the last 3 games of the series than the first 3. And games 4 and games 6 were his worst games.

I did watch a youtube video of a lot of Jordan's shots just now, and he was getting guarded by Hawkins a lot, so you may be correct.

TheMan

08-28-2012, 05:33 PM

The idiot strikes again...

Jordan was out of his prime against a youngster, is it so hard to understand? Kobe is getting further away from his prime the longer he plays, the moment some young upstart drops 40 on Kobe, I'll be here claiming young upstart>Kobe, I'll be taking a page from your retarded playbook:roll:

jordan didn't think they were ill advised shots when he ws sittin on the bench crying atfer Kobe dropped 55 on him..

did he?

did he?

ay my name...say my name!

back in my pocket kid..

CavaliersFTW

08-28-2012, 05:36 PM

The idiot strikes again...

Jordan was out of his prime against a youngster, is it so hard to understand? Kobe is getting further away from his prime the longer he plays, the moment some young upstart drops 40 on Kobe, I'll be here claiming young upstart>Kobe, I'll be taking a page from your retarded playbook:roll:
U mean like how Kobe disrespected Lin "who?" in the locker room, so Lin raped him for 38 points? :oldlol:

TheMan

08-28-2012, 05:38 PM

U mean like how Kobe disrespected Lin "who?" in the locker room, so Lin raped him for 38 points? :oldlol:
Lin>Kobe:lol

Mr Know It All

08-28-2012, 05:44 PM

Prime Bruce Bowen.

Anaximandro1

08-28-2012, 05:47 PM

Pippen

Bruce Bowen

Dumars

Michael Cooper

Rodman

LeBron

Poetry

08-28-2012, 05:52 PM

"Ball in Jordan hands"...put The Glove on him.

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_llsg96NpU31qzb7vjo1_400.jpg

http://www.nwsportsbeat.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/KempPayton96finals.jpg

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2011/06/08/2015268808.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c32/xsisse21/payton.jpg

http://i48.tinypic.com/5y6lcg.jpg

TheMan

08-28-2012, 06:02 PM

http://i48.tinypic.com/5y6lcg.jpg
You reach, I teach:bowdown:

Djahjaga

08-28-2012, 06:06 PM

Honestly? Cover him with my two best wing defenders and let a role player shoot it and hope they miss. Still a better chance that we win that way, Steve Kerr notwithstanding.

Pippen and Gary Payton.

LakersReign

08-28-2012, 06:09 PM

Triple team of: Rodman/Oakley/Cooper

Poetry

08-28-2012, 06:14 PM

http://i48.tinypic.com/5y6lcg.jpg
You reach, I teach:bowdown:

Payton's playing him right. Cut off the right, play him horizontally, keep a strong base, extend frame on left and right to create one man traps, stay low to the ground until necessary, close in on him, deny him the room to operate and keep him out of the post.

juju151111

08-28-2012, 06:43 PM

Judging by watching tapes of teenage Kobe vs Prime MJ...and Young Kobe vs old MJ...

no doubt Prime Kobe would be able to guard MJ.

Kobe had the foot speed/desire to make MJ take a ill advised shot.

and on the other side...no way MJ could guard Prime Kobe....Kobe by basically anything he wants.
When did Kobe face prime Mj? Kobe wasn't around 88-93 when Mj was in his prime

juju151111

08-28-2012, 06:51 PM

you mean ballhogging / shot jacking your way to a lost...

Mj was shooting like 28 - 30 times a game....Detrit would merk though..
Mj shitted on Dumars so bad they created the Jordan rules. After Mj had back to back 50+ points the made it. Let's get something straight Detroit can't guard Mj one on one especially 88-90 Mj who could run all day. Watch this video n look at the doubles n triple teams from the Pacers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&context=C4444d98ADvjVQa1PpcFM6hw86OyCEXwyVkWT8kCi1 02E8KxNc8zE= lol at guarding prime Mj with one person

Overdrive

08-28-2012, 07:04 PM

Depends what team Jordan is playing on - real teams or some fantasy stuff? If it's the 2nd 3peat Bulls I'd double off Rodman. Leave the Center on Longley and hope he's quick enough to challenge Rodman if he gets an easy opportunity at the basket.

I'd try to get Jordan to pass the ball to an open teammate that hasn't got a good FT% and foul immediately if there's no more foul to give.

I'd put Kobe or Wade on Jordan and Grant(whatever PF is on the Lakerssquad, doesn't matter) or Bosh as a doubleteam. Although they're slower than Jordan they'd be there to consumate space and bait Jordan into passing to the open man.

I'd really try to get a last shot and rather go down by one, than gamble on Jordan himself and lose without a chance to tie/win.

...and I know that this has been tried and Kerr/Paxson hit the gws, but it#s stupid to double off spot up shooter.

ILLsmak

08-28-2012, 07:06 PM

97 bulls

08-28-2012, 07:55 PM

Depends what team Jordan is playing on - real teams or some fantasy stuff? If it's the 2nd 3peat Bulls I'd double off Rodman. Leave the Center on Longley and hope he's quick enough to challenge Rodman if he gets an easy opportunity at the basket.
The Sonics tried that in 96. He set a record for offensive rebounds in a game. Twice.

I'd try to get Jordan to pass the ball to an open teammate that hasn't got a good FT% and foul immediately if there's no more foul to give.
So now youre team is in the penaly for long stretches of the game and you have players in fould trouble.

I'd put Kobe or Wade on Jordan and Grant(whatever PF is on the Lakerssquad, doesn't matter) or Bosh as a doubleteam. Although they're slower than Jordan they'd be there to consumate space and bait Jordan into passing to the open man.
The lakers tried that in 91. The result is Jorddan found Paxson wide open time after time.

I'd really try to get a last shot and rather go down by one, than gamble on Jordan himself and lose without a chance to tie/win.
If Jordan has the ball in a tie game with 17 seconds on the clock, you aint getting it back.

...and I know that this has been tried and Kerr/Paxson hit the gws, but it#s stupid to double off spot up shooter.
Magic thought it made sense lol

The only two players capable of contesting Jordan were Pippen and Rodman. You gotta throw Dumars in there cuz Jordan said he was his toughest defender. But he did have a lot of help.

James doesnt have the lateral quickness

Cooper would get posted up. Too skinny.

Bryant aint good enough

necya

08-28-2012, 08:20 PM

Julius

KyrieTheFuture

08-28-2012, 08:35 PM

Can I choose a bookie with proof that Jordan put 10,000,000 on losing the game?

Papaya Petee

08-28-2012, 08:35 PM

yep kobe might not be the best defender all game but in any single possession that he puts every ounce of effort into he will make his opposing player look like a scrub

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

many people use this video to support kobe as good defender, but got to say its those dedicated single possession of intense defense that gives him the edge in this kind of situation.
Funny thing is Kobe did this in 2007-2008 when Wade had 1000 injuries and could barely walk.

Next year they met up Wade was healthy and he dropped 35 and 28 on Kobe limiting Kobe to 27 and 19 points respectively.

PHILA

08-28-2012, 08:44 PM

Rodman (Detroit)

In a 1 on 1 situation Dennis was about as good as it got, however even he has some problems. The proper answer for this thread is the team defense. Send a hard double and take the ball out of his hands. When you send a soft double with little interior defense, this may happen (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9uhgkT9S9s#t=1h49m35s). :no:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bw6j1O8_naI#t=8m56s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4ZlHwMstDc#t=45s

Asukal

08-28-2012, 09:16 PM

Individually I'd choose prime Pip, Payton or Bowen.

In reality, only a double or triple team trap can stop him. :rockon:

arifgokcen

08-28-2012, 09:22 PM

lol lebron is not as good a 1 on 1 defender as kobe ( when he wants to go 100% )

lebron just does chase down blocks and passing lane steals

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHGleTaT2x4

Dude you really believe that

scandisk_

08-28-2012, 09:42 PM

A team of payton, coop/joe d, pip, rodman and hakeem and it's game over for MJ :lol

9erempiree

08-28-2012, 09:42 PM

Payton's playing him right. Cut off the right, play him horizontally, keep a strong base, extend frame on left and right to create one man traps, stay low to the ground until necessary, close in on him, deny him the room to operate and keep him out of the post.

all mj has to do is pivot and get into the triple threat unless he picked up his dribble.

Or he can get flashy and put the ball on the floor behind paytons back and pull one of those and 1 moves.

Paytons more like a pesty player. Nothing he can do to stop mj especially when mj is the bigger dude.

tmacattack33

08-28-2012, 09:44 PM

A team of payton, coop/joe d, pip, rodman and hakeem and it's game over for MJ :lol

Payton + Cooper +Pippen + Rodman + Hakeem > Jordan

(when healthy)

KOBE143

08-28-2012, 09:55 PM

Kobe will steal the ball and will make a buzzer beater winning shots that will send Jordan into retirement.. Then Kobe will become the goat and Jordan will be known as bonafide choker..

RRR3

08-28-2012, 09:58 PM

I'd pay big money to suck Kobe DA GAWD off. MMM BOY! :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:
:wtf: :biggums: :bowdown:

ganja0710

08-28-2012, 10:01 PM

the only people saying LeBron or Wade are Lebron Stan's and Heat bandwagoners. :oldlol:

only reasonable answers are the Glove and Pip. I'd also throw in a pre-injury Grant Hill in there as well.

Dictator

08-28-2012, 10:02 PM

Sefelosha :coleman:

The Choken One

08-28-2012, 10:04 PM

prime Kobe. gg Bulls. better luck next time.

wally_world

08-28-2012, 10:13 PM

Kobe for me

I dont think he will allow his team to lose, then again, neither would MJ

magnax1

08-28-2012, 10:15 PM

Dumars did the best job on him, but I think Rodman might've been able to do better. He was just usually assigned to Pippen because of the matchups the Bulls and Pistons had (at least that's what I'm assuming). It's crazy that those Pistons had what were probably 2 of the 10 best perimeter defender of the past 20 years.

TheBigVeto

08-28-2012, 10:36 PM

prime Kobe.

:roll:

bluechox2

08-28-2012, 10:42 PM

gotta go with lebron

prime kobe is halfway down the court looking for his shot, and besides, lakers always puts the taller defender on the opposing teams best player

Harison

08-28-2012, 11:01 PM

Real life example - Bulls were down by few points, and with 3 secs left Jordan got the ball, lost his man and went for the 3PT. Hakeem was in the post but instantly recognized the threat, in a split second got to Jordan and blocked his hot.

Of all the All-time great defenders who could check the MJ, Hakeem probably would be the best - he had exceptional quickness, length, wingspan and high BBIQ to go with it.

http://www.basketwallpapers.com/Images-06/Hakeem-Blocks-Jordan-Wallpaper.jpg

KOBE143

08-28-2012, 11:06 PM

Muggsy Bogues..

DatAsh

08-28-2012, 11:10 PM

magnax1

08-28-2012, 11:20 PM

So did the Bulls :eek:
Bulls had 3 in 96. Rodman and Jordan had fallen off a bit on D at that point, but they were still probably best at their position in the league (at least off the top of my head)

Heavincent

08-28-2012, 11:22 PM

Pippen. Jordan would never expect his own teammate to guard him.

Micku

08-28-2012, 11:51 PM

1. Pippen
2. Rodman
3. Cooper

hangintheair

08-29-2012, 12:18 AM

John Havlicek

sekachu

08-29-2012, 02:08 AM

Prime Kobe was just a beast on the defensive end. I think MJ will get his crap blocked by Kobe. This is what basically will happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhqMuo12ex4

So smart of you bringing up this example. He didn't type "Prime" but he obviously refer to Prime Jordan.

Quickening

08-29-2012, 02:15 AM

Kobe for me

I dont think he will allow his team to lose, then again, neither would MJ

Kobe hits 25 percent on game winners, he always lets his team lose.:lol :roll: :applause:

Maniak

08-29-2012, 02:43 AM

Kobe because it would be hilarious either way.

jstern

08-29-2012, 07:32 AM

With 10 seconds left, it's harder for anyone to stop Jordan. I think he's a 50% shooter in those situations, and that percentage was ruined by crazy wild, almost no look 3 point shots that had no chance of going in.

Overdrive

08-29-2012, 08:18 AM

Originally Posted by Overdrive
Depends what team Jordan is playing on - real teams or some fantasy stuff? If it's the 2nd 3peat Bulls I'd double off Rodman. Leave the Center on Longley and hope he's quick enough to challenge Rodman if he gets an easy opportunity at the basket.
The Sonics tried that in 96. He set a record for offensive rebounds in a game. Twice.

Yes, but that tactic would be only for one situation and that's the endgame situation. If Jordan pulls up with 2 seconds remaining an offensive rebound is of no concern, because Rodman won't get an uncontested putback if the center isn't totally uncapable

I'd try to get Jordan to pass the ball to an open teammate that hasn't got a good FT% and foul immediately if there's no more foul to give.
So now youre team is in the penaly for long stretches of the game and you have players in fould trouble.

Again, that's for the last shot in an deciding game, let's say game 7 of the finals, so penalties and foul trouble doesn't matter. My scenario relies on being in the penalty. If my team wasn't I'd just foul Jordan with 5 seconds left and deny the inbounds pass to him and rotate as quick as possible.

I'd put Kobe or Wade on Jordan and Grant(whatever PF is on the Lakerssquad, doesn't matter) or Bosh as a doubleteam. Although they're slower than Jordan they'd be there to consumate space and bait Jordan into passing to the open man.
The lakers tried that in 91. The result is Jorddan found Paxson wide open time after time.

That's why I would double off Rodman and not off a spotupshooter. I'd put a body infront of Jordan and force his decision.

I'd really try to get a last shot and rather go down by one, than gamble on Jordan himself and lose without a chance to tie/win.
If Jordan has the ball in a tie game with 17 seconds on the clock, you aint getting it back.

If Jordan hogs the ball I'd just foul him. If I let Jordan shoot there's a 50% chance he hits it(based on MJ playoff gamewinners). If I foul him the chance to win or tie the game is (based on 49,1 FG% of the average finals opponent - I know it's marginalized a little bit):

3,35%(Jordan misses both fts)+14,68%(Jordan misses 1FT - my team hits GW)+32,77%(Jordan hits both FTs - my team ties)=50,8% to tie or win.

So the chance is 0,8% better

To win in any case it would be:

1,64%(Jordan misses both FTs - my team hits GW)+14,68%(Jordan misses FT - my team hits GW)+24,50%(Jordan hits both my team hits GW 3pt fg)=40,82%

So statistically the best way would be to foul him and take a chance on a last shot to tie or win the game rather than let him shoot and have no shot at a game tying shot. Of course both is a gamble at near 50% chance.

madmax17

08-29-2012, 09:00 AM

Craig Ehlo, he won't make the same mistake twice. Or was it three times?

BoutPractice

08-29-2012, 09:06 AM

Sending Danny Fortson to injure him would be my best chance.

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 09:47 AM

Prime KG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0

38 year old Jordan vs 26 year old Garnett.....

TheCorporation

08-29-2012, 10:04 AM

LeBron Raymone James

Pushxx

08-29-2012, 10:07 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0

38 year old Jordan vs 26 year old Garnett.....

Man those Wolves teams were rank. Coached like shit too.

TheBigVeto

08-29-2012, 10:16 AM

Brian Cardinal

TheMan

08-29-2012, 10:37 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmngcHYnfN0

38 year old Jordan vs 26 year old Garnett.....
Damn

Everyone who has put KG to guard Jordan, forget it.

Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.

KG has no chance.

Great find, Dragon, we have video evidence that KG can't stop MJ.

BoNafidde

08-29-2012, 10:40 AM

Pippen. Jordan would never expect his own teammate to guard him.
/thread

lefthook00

08-29-2012, 10:46 AM

Michael Cooper.

Mr. I'm So Rad

08-29-2012, 10:50 AM

Moncrief or Pippen. But idk, Jordan might get bailed out by the refs.

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 11:24 AM

Damn

Everyone who has put KG to guard Jordan, forget it.

Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.

KG has no chance.

Great find, Dragon, we have video evidence that KG can't stop MJ.

Exactly, and this is what makes me laugh. You have guys on this board that swear down that Jordan wouldn't stand out as much as he did in the 80's and 90's and yet there's video evidence of broken down Wizards Jordan torching guys like this, is this era of 'tougher defense'.

Here's old ass Jordan abusing Shawn Marion in his Suns prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp__LVQvC7M

Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90

How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:

kurple

08-29-2012, 11:45 AM

Detroit Rodman

IGOTGAME

08-29-2012, 11:49 AM

I think we are all forgetting how good of a one on one defender Ron Artest was at his peak(it was a short peak). I have never seen someone better definitively better at his position.

Da_Realist

08-29-2012, 12:07 PM

Detroit-era Dennis Rodman. Michael Cooper is a great choice as well. These are the two guys that had the nerve and quickness to play up on MJ and dare him to drive past them. MJ had some big games and some not so big games against both but either way it wasn't easy. This is late 80's MJ I'm talking about.

Reggie Lewis had the size, quickness and natural instincts to make him work but I'm not sure I'd put him on MJ for all the marbles. Had his career not been cut short, he could have been an elite two-way player. He was great as it stands.

2nd threepeat MJ? Payton, probably. He was strong enough to make MJ fight tooth and nail for his post position and quick enough to recover relatively well if MJ gained half a step. He was just short enough for MJ to post up but strong enough to make that option hard as hell. Derek Harper was also tenacious during the playoffs that year, despite the two 40+ point games.

1st threepeat MJ? Roll the dice. He ate up Rodman and Dumars. Reggie Lewis had a good game against him in 91 but was eaten up in the other 3 games, iirc. John Starks did a good job in the 93 Playoffs, but it really wasn't just him. Payton was a light snack during those years.

tmacattack33

08-29-2012, 12:07 PM

Exactly, and this is what makes me laugh. You have guys on this board that swear down that Jordan wouldn't stand out as much as he did in the 80's and 90's and yet there's video evidence of broken down Wizards Jordan torching guys like this, is this era of 'tougher defense'.

Here's old ass Jordan abusing Shawn Marion in his Suns prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp__LVQvC7M

Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90

How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:

?

Did you even watch that video or did you just read its title "MJ abuses Ron Artest and Pacers".

I just watched it all.

I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks.

And it is a highlight video, so it doesn't show MJ's misses or times when Artest or whoever was guarding him held their ground.

By the way, his totals for the game were 11/25 FG, 25 points, and 3 assists. Yep, Artest sure got torched :rolleyes: .

L.A. Jazz

08-29-2012, 12:36 PM

Rodman
Pippen
Cooper

i think length on great wheels is crucial to challenge super star shotmakers at the last shot.

Harison

08-29-2012, 12:45 PM

Old ass Jordan punked prime KG in that video, imagine a prime MJ.

Those were few possessions only. Anyone could find ANY elite defender getting "fooled" now and then, it doesnt mean anything - total body of work is what counts, or head-to-head extensive data, NOT a few possessions.

Ron Artest in his Pacers defensive prime:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CV52IrBoj90

How much more fukking evidence is needed? :confusedshrug:

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 12:59 PM

?

Did you even watch that video or did you just read its title "MJ abuses Ron Artest and Pacers".

I just watched it all.

I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks.

And it is a highlight video, so it doesn't show MJ's misses or times when Artest or whoever was guarding him held their ground.

By the way, his totals for the game were 11/25 FG, 25 points, and 3 assists. Yep, Artest sure got torched :rolleyes: .

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:

The question asked in the thread is: Who, with 10 seconds left to go, would you use to defend Jordan? So the question itself doesn't refer to someone defending Jordan over the course of a game, but a single late-game possession. That video provided 4 glimpses of Jordan matching up against Artest, and the results of that matchup. Now obviously it didn't show the occasions where Artest may have successfully defended him( if there were any), because it's a Jordan highlight video. But in the scenario outlined in the topic title, the basic premise is which defender gives you the best chance for a single, late-game all-out defensive effort on Jordan.

If you're talking about a matchup with an elite defender and an elite offensive player, especially one at Jordan's level, odds are Jordan more often than not is going to have the advantage and in this case, Artest is going to be faced with any number of scenarios: Jordan taking him off the dribble to the rim, Jordan posting on him( as shown at 1:20), Jordan using a pick, or Jordan pulling up on him. We have no idea what the odds of Jordan scoring or Artest stopping him would be in that single late game 10 sec possession, but the video evidence of their encounter is certainly worth more than what has been mostly speculative commentary in this thread.

tmacattack33

08-29-2012, 01:06 PM

You're free to post a video of Artest shutting down Jordan in this game if you like.

Point was to show Jordan matched up against Artest and that video provided a sample size of an old Jordan matched against a prime Artest. Ok a few of the plays involved picks. And? What offensive player doesn't use them? You can still extrapolate for the most part how a prime Jordan would fare against Artest.

Well i don't have the full game tape of that game or any other Indiana vs Wizards game from 2002.

And actually, if we were to extrapolate stuff, i could say that MJ probably missed 6 shots against Artest in that game, because MJ overall was 11 for 25 in that game (and 11/24 = 4/10).

And even in that video itself, at the 4:45 mark, you can see Artest shut MJ down 1 on 1, leading to an MJ turnover (I don't even know why they left that in the video though, because this was a video of all of MJ's good plays). So, if I used bad logic, I'd go crazy about that one play and say that Artest can shut down MJ. But I can't because that was just one play.

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 01:09 PM

Well i don't have the full game tape of that game or any other Indiana vs Wizards game from 2002.

And actually, if we were to extrapolate stuff, i could say that MJ probably missed 6 shots against Artest in that game, because MJ overall was 11 for 25 in that game (and 11/24 = 4/10).

And even in that video itself, at the 4:45 mark, you can see Artest shut MJ down 1 on 1, leading to an MJ turnover (I don't even know why they left that in the video though, because this was a video of all of MJ's good plays). So, if I used bad logic, I'd go crazy about that one play and say that Artest can shut down MJ. But I can't because that was just one play.

I gave a more detailed response above if you haven't read it yet...

But on the point of extrapolating, it would be moreso speculation since there's no evidence of Artest actually stopping Jordan 6 times and from what we can see, Artest didn't exclusively guard him this game. But then, this is all speculation, isn't it?

tmacattack33

08-29-2012, 01:18 PM

I gave a more detailed response above if you haven't read it yet...

But on the point of extrapolating, it would be moreso speculation since there's no evidence of Artest actually stopping Jordan 6 times. But then, this is all speculation, isn't it?

I see.

Well yes, MJ was 4 for 4 against Artest in this video (or actually 4 for 5).

But as said, this video showed all of MJ's successful plays. We do not see:

1. MJ making a few dribble move attempts at getting by Artest where Artest stood his ground leading to an MJ pass

2. Artest forcing MJ into a miss (and as said, extrapolating, the most educated guess would say that this happened 6 times)

I can't really take anything at all from that video for said reasons. And nobody can, unless they think that Artest guarded MJ on 5 total possessions in the whole game (the ones the video showed), which is very very unlikely.

juju151111

08-29-2012, 01:19 PM

Those were few possessions only. Anyone could find ANY elite defender getting "fooled" now and then, it doesnt mean anything - total body of work is what counts, or head-to-head extensive data, NOT a few possessions.

and you got debunked right there:

"I just watched it all.
I saw Artest (he was #23 then) guard MJ for 4 buckets total there. And 2 or 3 of them involved picks."

Smart people understand they should base their opinion on more than just a few plays. Like anyone can post how Iverson broke Jordan's ankles, does it mean no one can defend AI, and MJ sucks as a defender? Thats your logic :confusedshrug:
Hmm Ron artest said himself MJ killed him when they worked out and Arrest cracked his rips. Also how do u explain Shawn Marion? He shitted on him two gms and a game winner. A 38 year old on sergery ridden knees embarrassing so called dvance athletes. Lmao be serious. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover. Lol at prime Shawn Marion can't guard a broken MJ

IGOTGAME

08-29-2012, 01:20 PM

Hmm Ron artest said himself MJ killed him when they worked out and Arrest cracked his rips. Also how do u explain Shawn Marion? He shitted on him two gms and a game winner. A 38 year old on sergery ridden knees embarrassing so called dvance athletes. Lmao be serious. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover. Lol at prime Shawn Marion can't guard a broken MJ

Shawn Marion isnt a good one on one defender. Ron Artest just says random shit. I'm not going to start believing him now.

Harison

08-29-2012, 01:26 PM

The question asked in the thread is: Who, with 10 seconds left to go, would you use to defend Jordan? So the question itself doesn't refer to someone defending Jordan over the course of a game, but a single late-game possession.

Few possessions doesnt say much (if anything) how well certain player would defend someone in general, or with 10 secs remaining.

The real question is, who have the best chance to limit Jordan's chances to score? No one can shut down elite scorer like MJ completely, and just posting few plays where MJ outplayed the defender, is neither the evidence for the point above, nor its wise in the first place.

Lets use your logic (and I can post the evidence of those certain plays):

Jordan missed some game winning shots, therefore he shouldnt be entrusted with the ball in the clutch. Few plays is all that matter, not the overall body of work, right? :rolleyes:

Iverson broke Jordan's ankles on the dribble once. According to you, it would be the evidence Jordan wouldnt be able to defend AI.

I hope you understand now, that the "evidence" you posted doesnt mean any of that, its just cherry picking of statistically meaningless data.

juju151111

08-29-2012, 01:33 PM

Shawn Marion isnt a good one on one defender. Ron Artest just says random shit. I'm not going to start believing him now.
Shawn Marion is a good one on one defender. Bruce Bowen said it too. Ron arrest still said it don't be mad

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 01:33 PM

I see.

Well yes, MJ was 4 for 4 against Artest in this video (or actually 4 for 5).

But as said, this video showed all of MJ's successful plays. We do not see:

1. MJ making a few dribble move attempts at getting by Artest where Artest stood his ground leading to an MJ pass

2. Artest forcing MJ into a miss (and as said, extrapolating, the most educated guess would say that this happened 6 times)

I can't really take anything at all from that video for said reasons. And nobody can, unless they think that Artest guarded MJ on 5 total possessions in the whole game (the ones the video showed), which is very very unlikely.

But again, isn't a video showing their encounters worth more than speculation?

The video shows Jordan scoring on Artest 4 times, not Artest stopping him 6 times. Your comment would suggest that Jordan and Artest matched up for at least 10 of Jordan's shot attempts. Since we don't have evidence as per that video to show this, it's speculation on your part that Artest 'stopped' Jordan 6 times, not extrapolation. Anyways, this is an issue of a semantic play on words and not terribly important.

The video showed Jordan scoring against other defenders as well, so Artest was not matched up against him the entire game. But really, for the purposes of this discussion, he doesn't have to be. The question isn't: what single defender would you have guard Jordan for a game? It's what single defender would you have guard him in a late game possession? In that 10 second instance, anything can happen, right? It's speculation either way with a variable number of outcomes. Maybe Jordan scores off the dribble, or posts him, or he gets fouled, or he shoots over the top. Maybe Artest strips him, blocks his shot, or forces him to pass. Do we really know? Of course not.

kurple

08-29-2012, 01:34 PM

Rodman
Pippen
Cooper

i think length on great wheels is crucial to challenge super star shotmakers at the last shot.
agree with this

IGOTGAME

08-29-2012, 01:38 PM

Shawn Marion is a good one on one defender. Bruce Bowen said it too. Ron arrest still said it don't be mad

Shawn Marion has never been a lock down defender. lets not change reality. Who has he really done a good job on? he was too slow laterally to guard the elite two guards in his prime, too small to guard the pfs he matched up with and never really bothered Pierce or Bron or Melo. He has never even been used as a shut down defender.

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 01:39 PM

Few possessions doesnt say much (if anything) how well certain player would defend someone in general, or with 10 secs remaining.

The real question is, who have the best chance to limit Jordan's chances to score? No one can shut down elite scorer like MJ completely, and just posting few plays where MJ outplayed the defender, is neither the evidence for the point above, nor its wise in the first place.

Lets use your logic (and I can post the evidence of those certain plays):

Jordan missed some game winning shots, therefore he shouldnt be entrusted with the ball in the clutch. Few plays is all that matter, not the overall body of work, right? :rolleyes:

Iverson broke Jordan's ankles on the dribble once. According to you, it would be the evidence Jordan wouldnt be able to defend AI.

I hope you understand now, that the "evidence" you posted doesnt mean any of that, its just cherry picking of statistically meaningless data.

Actually, that's not my logic at all. I merely posted a video showing their matchup. You can infer as little, or as much, as you like from it. This entire thread is speculation and we can really go around in circles about it, can't we?

For the record I understand your point completely, but I'm not sure if you understand mine. Limited sample size of video evidence isn't conclusive enough to say whether Artest could guard him or not overall. Yes, got that, not hard to figure out. But video evidence still, in what is a hypothetical discussion, trumps speculation. Especially over a situation( 10 seconds late game) that can have any number of outcomes. Really, we may as well not even discuss it, right? I mean who knows what's going to happen in a single possession, and how much time do you want to invest debating about it?

If you're going to dismiss the video, then you may as well dismiss the discussion period, because it's a totally hypothetical debate. Otherwise, take the video for what it is, a example of Jordan matching up with Artest. It wasn't intended to be definitive proof of anything but to show that if old Jordan can hold his own against Artest( as shown in limited sample size), you can figure that prime Jordan would do pretty good. Or, take nothing from it and speculate till the cows come home.

tmacattack33

08-29-2012, 02:04 PM

But again, isn't a video showing their encounters worth more than speculation?

The video shows Jordan scoring on Artest 4 times, not Artest stopping him 6 times. Your comment would suggest that Jordan and Artest matched up for at least 10 of Jordan's shot attempts. Since we don't have evidence as per that video to show this, it's speculation on your part that Artest 'stopped' Jordan 6 times, not extrapolation. Anyways, this is an issue of a semantic play on words and not terribly important.

The video showed Jordan scoring against other defenders as well, so Artest was not matched up against him the entire game. But really, for the purposes of this discussion, he doesn't have to be. The question isn't: what single defender would you have guard Jordan for a game? It's what single defender would you have guard him in a late game possession? In that 10 second instance, anything can happen, right? It's speculation either way with a variable number of outcomes. Maybe Jordan scores off the dribble, or posts him, or he gets fouled, or he shoots over the top. Maybe Artest strips him, blocks his shot, or forces him to pass. Do we really know? Of course not.

You seem smart enough and like you know what a good argument consists of.

1. I'm saying we don't have enough evidence here for a good argument in MJ's case or Artest's case.

We have a video that was edited to take away any evidence Artest's side of the argument would have.

2. And yes, it's a single possession at the end of the game.

The best defender of MJ over an infinite number of possessions will have the best chance to guard him on that one possession.

If player x has an MJ stoppage rate of 40% over infinite possessions and player y's is 39%, player x wins.

Unless you are trying to say that for some reason that one possession will be different than the others. Like you are saying that Artest for some reason will be worse on an end of game possession than a regular possession throughout the game.

3. I gotta go. LOL.

I look forward to seeing a response to this when I'm back if you want to leave one.

Sampsonsimpson

08-29-2012, 02:10 PM

Pippen, not just cause he is one of the greatest defenders of all time but he knows Jordan best.

juju151111

08-29-2012, 02:15 PM

Shawn Marion has never been a lock down defender. lets not change reality. Who has he really done a good job on? he was too slow laterally to guard the elite two guards in his prime, too small to guard the pfs he matched up with and never really bothered Pierce or Bron or Melo. He has never even been used as a shut down defender.
Ask LJ about Shawn Marion and in his prime Shawn Marion was a great defender. Mavs ushally put him on the best player http://sportsblogs.star-telegram.com/mac-engel/2012/03/shawn-marion-for-nba-defensive-player-of-the-year-is-a-long-shot.html

He couldn't guard him. Bruce Bowen said Mj was his toughest cover and Ron said it too. You have vids on YouTube with Mj blowing pass Artest,Jason Kidd, KG,Kobe, Marion, Tmac(Prime),PP,Ray Allen,Grant hill(Mj was 35 facing ray) etc... at 38 years old coming off sergery on knees. Lol at anyone of this guy stopping MJ in his prime

raid09

08-29-2012, 02:21 PM

You'd think Jordan shot 100% in his prime based on some of the responses in this thread.

Rasheed1

08-29-2012, 02:24 PM

10 seconds left, tied up, ball in Jordans hands. Who do you chose to defend him?

I get Tayshaun long arms Prince and prime Joe Dumars... I throw a hard double team at Mj to make him give up the ball and hope whoever he passes it to misses

Dragonyeuw

08-29-2012, 02:35 PM

You seem smart enough and like you know what a good argument consists of.

1. I'm saying we don't have enough evidence here for a good argument in MJ's case or Artest's case.

We have a video that was edited to take away any evidence Artest's side of the argument would have.

2. And yes, it's a single possession at the end of the game.

The best defender of MJ over an infinite number of possessions will have the best chance to guard him on that one possession.

If player x has an MJ stoppage rate of 40% over infinite possessions and player y's is 39%, player x wins.

Unless you are trying to say that for some reason that one possession will be different than the others. Like you are saying that Artest for some reason will be worse on an end of game possession than a regular possession throughout the game.

3. I gotta go. LOL.

I look forward to seeing a response to this when I'm back if you want to leave one.

1. No, we don't have enough evidence either way. I agree with you there, the video( like any highlight video of this nature) is simply snapshots of moments in time between player X and player y. Yes, the author of this video could be biased in favor of Jordan and therefore edit the video to make it look like Jordan is 'killing' Artest, while leaving out any evidence of Artest 'stopping' Jordan. Believe me, I understand the point you're making there.

2. Without knowing the best 'stoppage' rate for any of Jordan's defenders, I really can't say.

In terms of that single possession, particularly late game there's also the point that Jordan famously raised his level of play( though we can probably say Artest would raise his defensive pressure/ability as well) but that's not tangible, moreso its that intangible factor that isn't really measurable.

The reality is if we were to extrapolate( there's that word again lol) Artest defending Jordan for an entire game, or series, it's reasonable to speculate :D that Jordan would have occasions of scoring on Artest, Artest would have occasions where he managed to stay in front of Jordan and successfully defend him into either missing or passing it off. But in that single possession, really it's anyone's guess but I would tend to lean with Jordan for the simple reason that a historically great offensive player like Jordan has too many weapons, too many ways to manufacture something out of nothing, too many ways to improvise, to think that one defender could literally take away all of Jordan's offensive weapons and options in that 10 second frame.

That's what makes guys like Jordan and Kobe such dynamic offensive talents, is their ability to create, improvise and keep the defense off-balance and guessing. But seriously, if you played out that 10 second scenario ten times over, it's going to result in 10 totally different outcomes; it will either result in a score or a miss( or a foul or a pass), but the dynamics between the two players will differ each time the situation plays itself out( not only that but the dynamics of how their respective teammates react is subject to the same variation, and that needs to be considered as well).

3. It's all good, if you have further comment I look forward to reading it.