Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan - Identical Plays

[FatComputerNerd]

Pretty cool video


Kobe Bryant vs Michael Jordan - Identical Plays (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v27Hk5OIe-k)

Watch in fullscreen and 1080p if possible.

[Vertical-24]

LMFAO.

WOW. That was a pretty cool video. Kobe definitely modeled his game after Jordan's and being apart of the Triangle also adds on to the similarities you'd see (in terms of plays).

Cheers to the Greatest and one of the Greats :cheers:

[po3try]

LMFAO.

WOW. That was a pretty cool video. Kobe definitely modeled his game after Jordan's and being apart of the Triangle also adds on to the similarities you'd see (in terms of plays).

Cheers to the Greatest and one of the Greats :cheers:

Only visually speaking yes, because he is not making those shots as efficiently, consistently and productively as Jordan did, same goes with rebounding, passing and defense. The only thing Kobe does as efficiently as Jordan is showing the tongue. Visually anybody can look like Jordan.

[FatComputerNerd]

Please don't ruin this thread with homer'ism.

It's just an amazing video I wanted to share.

[Punpun]

This vid is kind of funny in the sense that we see people playing harder defense than people did on MJ. IN those clips at least.

[TheMan]

Kobe the Jordan stan!:bowdown:
http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3263/2448558472_d00dc7d48c.jpg

[jstern]

I don't like it. It makes the uninformed teenager think that Kobe was the better clutch shooter. What a joke. I remember when those ESPN people were saying that. The lady seemed clueless about both their games and that's who they quote in that video.

Edit: Just saw the account name of the person who uploaded the video 2012Mamba. Ends saying that Kobe will be the GOAT. Propaganda video.

[TheMan]

This vid is kind of funny in the sense that we see people playing harder defense than people did on MJ. IN those clips at least.
Yeah because we all know defense in the NBA started in 2000...:facepalm

[DuMa]

too bad no defense was copied.

[Punpun]

Yeah because we all know defense in the NBA started in 2000...:facepalm

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO ARGUE THAT IN THE CLIPS IN THE VIDS, KOBE WASN'T BEING GUARDED HARDER THAN MJ ? DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO THAT ? WHEN IT'S CLEARLY NOT THE CASE ?

****ing stans I swear. Make me lost my self-control.I've made no claims about defense in the 2000 or the 90. Or any comparisons on the defense played back then or now. NONE. And you have the GUTS to claim that ? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. The nerve of some people. God, I swear.

[Heavincent]

too bad no defense was copied.

This kid has obviously never watched Kobe.

[po3try]

Like Mike, if i could be like Mike!

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/young-kobe-in-Italy.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vhwxA1psuxE/Sjeo75oPmKI/AAAAAAAAAYQ/1eud9UwTZiM/s400/kobe_jordan1_308_020612.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/kobe_jordan_254_020612.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97z14ESKp1ruh0ato1_500.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PkA4JK0sNZk/TCpcUo_Z0CI/AAAAAAAABdY/m0A_54C6W4o/s1600/kobe+jordan+forma-si.jpg
http://turnernbaallball.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/kobe-mj.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/705/792/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg

[Poetry]

This vid is kind of funny in the sense that we see people playing harder defense than people did on MJ. IN those clips at least.

What are you talking about? Do you need me to break it down frame by frame for you?

Went back and watched it one more time to make sure, you don't know what you're talking about.

[TheMan]

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO ARGUE THAT IN THE CLIPS IN THE VIDS, KOBE WASN'T BEING GUARDED HARDER THAN MJ ? DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO THAT ? WHEN IT'S CLEARLY NOT THE CASE ?

****ing stans I swear. Make me lost my self-control.I've made no claims about defense in the 2000 or the 90. Or any comparisons on the defense played back then or now. NONE. And you have the GUTS to claim that ? You ought to be ashamed of yourself. The nerve of some people. God, I swear.
Could it be that Jordan was better at shaking his man off? Or he was better at creating space on his fade away J? There are clips of the Pistons and Knicks players on Jordan, last I heard they were considered pretty good on D.

Just saying, kid...

[Poetry]

DO YOU REALLY WANT TO ARGUE THAT IN THE CLIPS IN THE VIDS, KOBE WASN'T BEING GUARDED HARDER THAN MJ ? DO YOU REALLY WANT TO DO THAT ? WHEN IT'S CLEARLY NOT THE CASE ?

It's time consuming, but tonight i'll break it down frame by frame if you want.

But no disappearing, if i go to the trouble of doing the frame by frame break down, you need to come back and discuss and defend.

[Sarcastic]

They made a better version a long time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RLysV1TPAs

[AlphaWolf24]

It's time consuming, but tonight i'll break it down frame by frame if you want.

But no disappearing, if i go to the trouble of doing the frame by frame break down, you need to come back and discuss and defend.


you do know the defense became much bettrr as the 80's era ended....defense in he modern era is muh better then it was from the 80's - early 90's

[TheMan]

It's time consuming, but tonight i'll break it down frame by frame if you want.

But no disappearing, if i go to the trouble of doing the frame by frame break down, you need to come back and discuss and defend.
Don't bother, I watched the video again and that kid is full of shit, MJ was also getting his shot contested, kid makes it seem like MJ's defender were being turnstiles...kid is full of shi.t.

[FatComputerNerd]

They made a better version a long time ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RLysV1TPAs

Filmed with a potato :lol

1080p FTW

[Punpun]

Bla bla bla. You people are full of shit. First, you made wrong accusations about me. THen, when I called you out on your shit, you jsut changed your accusations.

Now, I'm going to have to slap your ass again.

IN EVERY SINGLE PLAYS, KOBE IS EITHER DOUBLETEAMED OR THE GUY ON HIM IS TOUCHING HIM.

AKA THOUGHER DEFENSE IS PLAYED ON KOBE ON THOSE 10 CLIPS.

Oh wow. ****ing kids trying to get all uppity and offended as if I just said Kobe has been playing all his career against thougher D. or something. This is up to discussion and this isn't a discussion I want to have nor does it have anything ot do with what I stated. What I stated on the other can not be contested as it is a fact shown in those clips. Not my fault the guy who made that vid chose such clips.

Wake up kiddoes, not everyone is out to have the 9587384783th debate about Kobe and/or MJ.

[Punpun]

:facepalm

:yaohappy:

[TheMan]

you do know the defense became much bettrr as the 80's era ended....defense in he modern era is muh better then it was from the 80's - early 90's
Nah, offensive numbers went down because a lack of fundamentals and a lack of offensive talent...true story.

They even had to mess with the rules to make today's scrubs look better. Can't even produce decent big men anymore:facepalm:

next

[Sarcastic]

Filmed with a potato :lol

1080p FTW

It's all about the music :rockon:

[Poetry]

Don't bother, I watched the video again and that kid is full of shit, MJ was also getting his shot contested, kid makes it seem like MJ's defender were being turnstiles...kid is full of shi.t.

I'll do a quick one for the first one at least, so we can comment on it, before the release and after.

[Punpun]

I'll do a quick one for the first one at least, so we can comment on it, before the release and after.

Do so. "Baaaaaw out of the thousands possessions MJ played, Kobe has been guarded harder than him on some of them". This is what you people are looking like right now. So ridiculous.

[TheMan]

IN EVERY SINGLE PLAYS, KOBE IS EITHER DOUBLETEAMED OR THE GUY ON HIM IS TOUCHING HIM.

AKA THOUGHER DEFENSE IS PLAYED ON KOBE ON THOSE 10 CLIPS.
Don't get mad just because MJ was better than Kobe at creating space and getting cleaner looks...well known fact, kid.

[Punpun]

Wait. Why are you trying to bait me on a debate Kobe vs MJ ? It has nothing to do with the facts Kobe is being almost grabbed on those 10 or so possessions, Prolly even less, while it is not the case for MJ.

That's all. I'm not inventing anything. It's all on OP vid. No idea why you are being so mad about this.

[Punpun]

:wtf: :biggums: :facepalm

:yaohappy:

[AlphaWolf24]

Nah, offensive numbers went down because a lack of fundamentals and a lack of offensive talent...true story.

They even had to mess with the rules to make today's scrubs look better. Can't even produce decent big men anymore:facepalm:

next


Lack of Fundamentals....so MJ sho 41% in the modern era because his fundamentals went down.....he shot 50% once his final 9 years because players got worse?

I would take Duncan ,KG , Shaq and Ming over any Center from 1989 - 1999

[TheMan]

Wait. Why are you trying to bait me on a debate Kobe vs MJ ? It has nothing to do with the facts Kobe is being almost grabbed on those 10 or so possessions, Prolly even less, while it is not the case for MJ.

That's all. I'm not inventing anything. It's all on OP vid. No idea why you are being so mad about this.
Dude, the 80s and 90s defenses were based on grabbing, hand checking and laying out players who took it to the rim...today's league is a ***** league compared to those days.

[Punpun]

Dude, the 80s and 90s defenses were based on grabbing, hand checking and laying out players who took it to the rim...today's league is a ***** league compared to those days.

Why are you trying to bait me on another debate that has NOTHING to do with my observation of OP's vid ? It's already the third time. Or is it the fourth ?

[AlphaWolf24]

Dude, the 80s and 90s defenses were based on grabbing, hand checking and laying out players who took it to the rim...today's league is a ***** league compared to those days.


show me one time anyone layed out Michael Jordan ...Jordan actually got codlled by the refs more then any player ever

I can show you multiple angles of Kobe getting closelined to the floor....

[TheMan]

Lack of Fundamentals....so MJ sho 41% in the modern era because his fundamentals went down.....he shot 50% once his final 9 years because players got worse?

I would take Duncan ,KG , Shaq and Ming over any Center from 1989 - 1999
Gimme Hakeem, Ewing, DRobinson, Shaq, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo etc.

KG and Duncan are centers because of today's lack of bigmen, their real position is PF.

Alonzo Mourning would be the best center today.

next

[juju151111]

Lack of Fundamentals....so MJ sho 41% in the modern era because his fundamentals went down.....he shot 50% once his final 9 years because players got worse?

I would take Duncan ,KG , Shaq and Ming over any Center from 1989 - 1999
The dream getting disrespcted by KG n Yao u serious retard?:biggums:

[FatComputerNerd]

Gimme Hakeem, Ewing, DRobinson, Shaq, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo etc.

KG and Duncan are centers because of today's lack of bigmen, their real position is PF.

Alonzo Mourning would be the best center today.

next

Duncan is a Center.

True regarding KG, and the rest of your post.

[AlphaWolf24]

The dream getting disrespcted by KG n Yao u serious retard?:biggums:

I woldtake 2000 Shaq ove 90's akeem..

[TheMan]

show me one time anyone layed out Michael Jordan ...Jordan actually got codlled by the refs more then any player ever

I can show you multiple angles of Kobe getting closelined to the floor....
I understand, you were too young to have watched MJ taking a beating from the Celtics, Pistons, Knicks...

[Poetry]

This vid is kind of funny in the sense that we see people playing harder defense than people did on MJ. IN those clips at least.

Picked the first play in the video to be objective.

Scenerio really is very similar, both MJ/Kobe are cut off from a clean drive to the basket, both doubled, etc. Anyway, you guys be the judge.


MJ Play 1:

http://i45.tinypic.com/6p15jt.png

http://i48.tinypic.com/ev3v2w.png

http://i46.tinypic.com/avq1ck.png

http://i47.tinypic.com/r1eq6c.png

Kobe Play 1:

http://i50.tinypic.com/2woaskn.png

http://i49.tinypic.com/2lkbn0o.png

http://i45.tinypic.com/k0o8hv.png

http://i48.tinypic.com/63uhq9.png

[juju151111]

I woldtake 2000 Shaq ove 90's akeem..
Shaq played in the 90s too n wasnt the same by 06.

[AlphaWolf24]

Gimme Hakeem, Ewing, DRobinson, Shaq, Mourning, Daugherty, Mutombo etc.

KG and Duncan are centers because of today's lack of bigmen, their real position is PF.

Alonzo Mourning would be the best center today.

next


Shaq was also in is prime during the 2000's

KG is just as much a Center as Hakeem was...Taller Too...

Duncan is also a Center..and Taller then Alonzo...

Ming 1R@p3z Daugherty all dey

D12>Mutumbo

Modern Bigs>watered down 90's

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq played in the 90s too n wasnt the same by 06.

akeem played in the 80's...wasn't the same after 96'

your point

[juju151111]

This vid is kind of funny in the sense that we see people playing harder defense than people did on MJ. IN those clips at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&context=C4444d98ADvjVQa1PpcFM6hw86OyCEXwyVkWT8kCi1 02E8KxNc8zE= Watch that video then come back to me

[Punpun]

Picked the first play in the video to be objective.

Scenerio really is very similar, both MJ/Kobe are cut off from a clean drive to the basket, both doubled, etc. Anyway, you guys be the judge.


MJ Play 1:

Kobe Play 1:


Player 2 is being guarded harder than Player 1. Thank you for your pictures showcasing what I already wrote.

[Punpun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70&context=C4444d98ADvjVQa1PpcFM6hw86OyCEXwyVkWT8kCi1 02E8KxNc8zE= Watch that video then come back to me

Why should I ? That vid has NOTHING to do with OP's vid.

[TheMan]

Shaq was also in is prime during the 2000's

KG is just as much a Center as Hakeem was...Taller Too...

Duncan is also a Center..and Taller then Alonzo...

Ming 1R@p3z Daugherty all dey

D12>Mutumbo

Modern Bigs>watered down 90's

I love how you ignored Ewing and Robinson:lol

90s Shaq wasn't nothing to scoff at.

Hakeem FTW

[AlphaWolf24]

I understand, you were too young to have watched MJ taking a beating from the Celtics, Pistons, Knicks...


Oh trust me I watched....


pease show me one time someone layed out Jordan ..after all .....all those Pistons games surely someone kocked him to the foor...

worse then this>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iTtjMTUkw

[Poetry]

Player 2 is being guarded harder than Player 1. Thank you for your pictures showcasing what I already wrote.

Is that Landry Fields and Steve Novak locking down the Mamba?

[AlphaWolf24]

I love how you ignored Ewing and Robinson:lol

90s Shaq wasn't nothing to scoff at.

Hakeem FTW


you brought up Daughtery:roll: ....

Shaq , Duncan , KG , Ming , Howard > akeem , Robinson , Ewing, Zo, Daugherty

[Vertical-24]

Only visually speaking yes, because he is not making those shots as efficiently, consistently and productively as Jordan did, same goes with rebounding, passing and defense. The only thing Kobe does as efficiently as Jordan is showing the tongue. Visually anybody can look like Jordan.

Oh boy...this again.

[TheMan]

you brought up Daughtery:roll: ....

Shaq , Duncan , KG , Ming , Howard > akeem , Robinson , Ewing, Zo, Daugherty
Shaq was a 90s player, he was done by mid 2000s

90s bigmen>>2000s bigmen

[Punpun]

Is that Landry Fields and Steve Novak locking down the Mamba?

Sarcaasm won't change facts.

[KG215]

Ahhh..another thread where AlphaWolf is making a complete and total ass of himself. It never gets old.

[Poetry]

Sarcaasm won't change facts.

I was just asking a question.

Your interpreting it as sarcasm is very interesting though.

[CavaliersFTW]

It's time consuming, but tonight i'll break it down frame by frame if you want.

But no disappearing, if i go to the trouble of doing the frame by frame break down, you need to come back and discuss and defend.
GIT HIM BOI

[CavaliersFTW]

show me one time anyone layed out Michael Jordan ...Jordan actually got codlled by the refs more then any player ever

I can show you multiple angles of Kobe getting closelined to the floor....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSPIQiFAe6U

Kobe's nancy era never produced gritty, dirty teams like this. Or the Stockton/Malone Jazz. Or the Ewing Knicks.

Sorry.

[TheMan]

Oh trust me I watched....


pease show me one time someone layed out Jordan ..after all .....all those Pistons games surely someone kocked him to the foor...

worse then this>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iTtjMTUkw
For ****s sake, you gonna pretend Jordan never took a hard hit? You just started watching the NBA yesterday?

BTW, that shot on Kobe was pretty dirty but don't act like that happened all the time to Bryant and Jordan never got a hand laid on him.

[juju151111]

Shaq was also in is prime during the 2000's

KG is just as much a Center as Hakeem was...Taller Too...

Duncan is also a Center..and Taller then Alonzo...

Ming 1R@p3z Daugherty all dey

D12>Mutumbo

Modern Bigs>watered down 90's
You must be on crack Hakeem>>>>>KG
David Robinson >>>>Yao Ming
Ewing>D12

[juju151111]

Why should I ? That vid has NOTHING to do with OP's vid.
Cliaming the defense was harder on Kobe when the plays showed basically the samething. I decided to educate on the type of defense they played on mj

[FatComputerNerd]

You must be on crack Hakeem>>>>>KG
David Robinson >>>>Yao Ming
Ewing>D12

Truth

[MontaEllis24]

alot of 90s kids wanted to be like Mike apparently kobe did just that....:lol

[HardwoodLegend]

MJ hangs in the air so much nicer and glides further than Kobe on the up-and-under reverses.

[scandisk_]

MJ had a son when he was 15, he was too young to raise his child back then so he abandoned the kid on an orphanage.

Luckily for Joe Bryant.......

http://sports-kings.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Jordan-vs.-Kobe.jpg

[BigMic]

Duncan is a Center.

True regarding KG, and the rest of your post.
That's why , when I read he is the best PF of all time, it makes me puke.

[KOBE143]

Kobe as good as MJ is still playing in the league.. Kobe's career right now is almost equal to Mike.. I can see Kobe retire better than Mike individually someday..

[andgar923]

Oh trust me I watched....


pease show me one time someone layed out Jordan ..after all .....all those Pistons games surely someone kocked him to the foor...

worse then this>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7iTtjMTUkw

did this idiot just state this?

:facepalm

[KG215]

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/April-2011/Inside-the-Start-of-the-Chicago-Bulls-1991-Championship/


MICHAEL JORDAN (starting guard): I knew I had to get stronger. If I was going to go into the post, then I was going to have to play like a big guy. I still had my quickness so I knew if I got stronger, I could turn the tables. Teams such as the Pistons and Knicks had figured the only way to throw me off my game was to throw me out of the air. I’d had enough. I wanted to start dishing out the punishment instead of taking it all the time.

That's for you AlphaWolf.

[TheMan]

Kobe as good as MJ is still playing in the league.. Kobe's career right now is almost equal to Mike.. I can see Kobe retire better than Mike individually someday..
um...no

[Vertical-24]

um...no

Not gonna lie, I LOL'd hard

[Xiengqichess]

Why the last play Michael got and-1 and Kobe did not? That's the difference from these 2 I guess!

[alleykat]

Kobe as good as MJ is still playing in the league.. Kobe's career right now is almost equal to Mike.. I can see Kobe retire better than Mike individually someday..

actually it's not......if you're talking career wise then it's not at all.....

[TheMan]

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/April-2011/Inside-the-Start-of-the-Chicago-Bulls-1991-Championship/



That's for you AlphaWolf.
Don't bother with him, either he's a fifteen year old who never saw how the Pistons would dish it out to MJ or he just trolling like a retard...

[Rojogaqu11]

The problem in these type of videos is that while trying to compare Kobe to Mike, they also influence the casual fan's into thinking that Kobe is just an imitation of MJ, when we know that Kobe, while being extremely similar to Mike because of several common factors, is his own player with peculiarities, skills, and accomplishments that should separate him into a different legacy that can be fully appreciated apart from Mike's shadow.

[po3try]

What are all Kobe fans 7 years old or something? If not, then how the **** can a grown basketball fan be so deluded and biased to disrespect the game of basketball with such opinions of Kobe compared to other greats in the past and other much greater players today? And why oh god why!?? Kobe is just a bit over average player that was on the level of Clyde Drexler at best, who is selfish like hell and is probably the biggest shotjacker in NBA history, thats the only reason he gets any kindof points and fooling retarded fans to think he is better than he is, he is also a major choker in the playoffs, his numbers and efficiency go down, he got carried to multiple championships, stop overrating this selfish shotjacking jordan wannabe primadonna!!!

[magnax1]

Kobe definitely has as high of a skill level as Jordan. Probably higher, especially in terms of just pure shooting, but even that short vid makes it pretty clear that Jordan just got more space for his shots because he was so much more athletic. Add on the fact that he was a much better slasher (probably the greatest ever) and it's quite clear where the gap between the two comes from.

[Nevaeh]

The problem in these type of videos is that while trying to compare Kobe to Mike, they also influence the casual fan's into thinking that Kobe is just an imitation of MJ, when we know that Kobe, while being extremely similar to Mike because of several common factors, is his own player with peculiarities, skills, and accomplishments that should separate him into a different legacy that can be fully appreciated apart from Mike's shadow.


You're right. Plus Jordan was never a sidekick. http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/images/smilies/lol.gif



Sorry, but your heartfelt post walked right into that one. And yes Kobe was, and will always be, an imitation of 96-98 Jordan (he wasn't dumb enough to try and be like 85-93 Mike).

[AlphaWolf24]

For ****s sake, you gonna pretend Jordan never took a hard hit? You just started watching the NBA yesterday?

BTW, that shot on Kobe was pretty dirty but don't act like that happened all the time to Bryant and Jordan never got a hand laid on him.


Hard hit?...ok...MJ got hit hard ( Like many players today!!)...

- you said MJ usd to get Layed out....many timesagaint the Pistons/Cltics or whatever



- To me "Layed out" means someone hit you so hard (head or chest) you go straight to the deck...

- I asked youto show me 1 video of MJ getting layed out....you didn't....all your tactis consists of is first grade name calling.


gt back in my pocket kid..

[KG215]

I'll post this once again, just for you AlphaWolf. Just because no one is providing video doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's pretty common knowledge that Jordan took beatings from the Bad Boy Pistons and the Knicks.


MICHAEL JORDAN (starting guard): I knew I had to get stronger. If I was going to go into the post, then I was going to have to play like a big guy. I still had my quickness so I knew if I got stronger, I could turn the tables. Teams such as the Pistons and Knicks had figured the only way to throw me off my game was to throw me out of the air. I’d had enough. I wanted to start dishing out the punishment instead of taking it all the time.

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/April-2011/Inside-the-Start-of-the-Chicago-Bulls-1991-Championship/

[AlphaWolf24]

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/April-2011/Inside-the-Start-of-the-Chicago-Bulls-1991-Championship/



That's for you AlphaWolf.
MJ said what?..."took me outta the air":confusedshrug:

- just like nearly all players today get taken outta the air??..when they drive.

- I was responding to a Jordan stan who said " Players today don't get Layed out like Jordan used to"....and I showed him playesr today do et Layed out.

- and yet not 1 video of MJ getting Layed out to the deck....only a stupid qoute about someone getting phsical while he was attacking the Rim ( wich happens almost every play)...

- MJ also said he got cut from his highschool team...you believe that??



Jordan stans = ruining basketball 1 post at a time

[AlphaWolf24]

I'll post this once again, just for you AlphaWolf. Just because no one is providing video doesn't mean it didn't happen. It's pretty common knowledge that Jordan took beatings from the Bad Boy Pistons and the Knicks.



http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magazine/April-2011/Inside-the-Start-of-the-Chicago-Bulls-1991-Championship/

I watched all those games....he attacked the lane = they bodied him...just as they do in the modern era...


- You jordan stans trying to act like he got hit harder then ny players today is silly...

- in fact it was the opposite....you look at MJ wrong = Foul

- I know you prolly never watched him play.....but please provide 1 video of someone throwin MJ to the floor.

[FatComputerNerd]

It would appear I've created a monster.

This was never meant to be a "who is better" thread.

Everyone knows Michael > Kobe.
Everyone knows that Kobe patterned his game after Michael's.
Everyone also knows Kobe is great, and a top 10-13 player of all time.



I just thought it was a cool video, and both players should be appreciated for their talents.

[KG215]

You're f***ing hopeless. I mean you really are all kinds of retarded or just an incredible troll. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that quote when you put it all together and put it into context with that era. The Bad Boy Pistons were dishing out blow after blow after blow to Jordan is, like I already said, common knowledge. Even if he wasn't constantly getting "laid out" and knocked to the floor every time, he was still getting hit.

And of course I believe him about this because, for a third time, IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Jordan was getting beat up against those teams. He was just making up some bullshit out of thin air. That quote is from his book, by the way, and I don't think he was just making up a bunch of crap to fill pages.

[AlphaWolf24]

You're f***ing hopeless. I mean you really are all kinds of retarded or just an incredible troll. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that quote when you put it all together and put it into context with that era. The Bad Boy Pistons were dishing out blow after blow after blow to Jordan is, like I already said, common knowledge. Even if he wasn't constantly getting "laid out" and knocked to the floor every time, he was still getting hit.

And of course I believe him about this because, for a third time, IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Jordan was getting beat up against those teams. He was just making up some bullshit out of thin air. That quote is from his book, by the way, and I don't think he was just making up a bunch of crap to fill pages.


I'm hopeless??...

Your *****azz can't even find a video of a hard foul on MJ...only a stupid qoute about Air


- Hardest Foul MJ took vs the Pistons >>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JgOhUELRrRg

He did get Bodied and fell to floor....but if anyone thinks average players today don't get the same treatment then they are basketball illiterate.

- Jordan was the most coddled player ever...If you think he took harder fould then Kobe, Durant,Bron etc...then you are crazy.

Stern would kick someone outta the league if they hurt MJ...

[lakerspng]

You're f***ing hopeless. I mean you really are all kinds of retarded or just an incredible troll. I don't know what's so hard to understand about that quote when you put it all together and put it into context with that era. The Bad Boy Pistons were dishing out blow after blow after blow to Jordan is, like I already said, common knowledge. Even if he wasn't constantly getting "laid out" and knocked to the floor every time, he was still getting hit.

And of course I believe him about this because, for a third time, IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE that Jordan was getting beat up against those teams. He was just making up some bullshit out of thin air. That quote is from his book, by the way, and I don't think he was just making up a bunch of crap to fill pages.

Jordan said it, but it wasn't exactly true in a literal sense. H's just blowing a little smoke up his own arse. Everyone does it. I never saw people literally knock him to the ground on the regular and I watched his whole career.

[AlphaWolf24]

Jordan said it, but it wasn't exactly true in a literal sense. H's just blowing a little smoke up his own arse. Everyone does it. I never saw people literally knock him to the ground on the regular and I watched his whole career.


We are arguing with Kids who never watched Basketball before 2006...

there Jordan knowlege consists of ESPN/youtube Highlights and old Gatorade comercials...

[KG215]

This is the last I'm posting on this because AlphaWolf is a moron.

First off, I'm not even arguing Jordan was taking some amount of unheard of physical punishment, the likes of which haven't been seen since the Bad Boy Pistons. But you seem to think it never happened and teams weren't physical with Jordan. Have you seriously not heard of the Pistons "Jordan Rules" defense? It was specifically designed to be physical with Jordan (not constantly knocking him down to the floor physical) and take him out of his game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules

First you try to argue that the centers of the 2000s were better than the centers of the 90s and now this.

:facepalm

[KG215]

Jordan said it, but it wasn't exactly true in a literal sense. H's just blowing a little smoke up his own arse. Everyone does it. I never saw people literally knock him to the ground on the regular and I watched his whole career.

I should have worded it better. I didn't mean to make it sound like that every time Jordan drove into the lane he was knocked to the floor. But it's still pretty common knowledge that the Bad Boy Pistons played physical and dirty. If he doesn't know or doesn't believe those Pistons teams were especially physical when they played Jordan and the Bulls, then I can't help him.

And I find it hilarious that AlphaWolf accuses us of being "kids who never watched basketball before 2006" and he's the one saying things like the centers of 2000s were better than the centers of the 90s.

[AlphaWolf24]

This is the last I'm posting on this because AlphaWolf is a moron.

First off, I'm not even arguing Jordan was taking some amount of unheard of physical punishment, the likes of which haven't been seen since the Bad Boy Pistons. But you seem to think it never happened and teams weren't physical with Jordan. Have you seriously not heard of the Pistons "Jordan Rules" defense? It was specifically designed to be physical with Jordan (not constantly knocking him down to the floor physical) and take him out of his game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLv2F33snCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_Rules

First you try to argue that the centers of the 2000s were better than the centers of the 90s and now this.

:facepalm


They Bodied him...:confusedshrug: ...They doubled teamed from he elbow/block

My question to you is..."do you think players today don't get bodied the same way MJ did vs the Pistons?"..."Players today don't get doubled or Trapped?"

same tye of "outta the air" foul today - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq7wykbujjk&feature=fvst

another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfYV60vmBHE

another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRvqWmtR7-I&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s

anther one Kobe vs double team/triple team bringing the ball up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNQPFCjBCIg&feature=player_detailpage#t=122s

"The Jordan rules"..der..derp..derp....no one played against tough defense before..derp

Jordan revisionist history is silly

[AlphaWolf24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSPIQiFAe6U

Kobe's nancy era never produced gritty, dirty teams like this. Or the Stockton/Malone Jazz. Or the Ewing Knicks.

Sorry.


Stockton/Malone Jazz??...really?

That team was soft as **** Adam Keefe as teh Enforcer...:lol

nearly 20 seasons of great basketball....but come on.

(funny part is when MJ stans say "MJ kept Malone from winning"..:lol what happened the other 18 seasons?)

.....Jordan's watered down 90's....Oh NOOO! here Comes Kevin Duckworth and CliFF Robinson!!....Richard Dumas Tod Kliene.....Detlef Shremp and Shawn Kemp!!...scary!

pshhhttt...Kobe would merk Ehlo and drop 81 again...Kobe vs terry Porter woul R@9E...Kobe vs Richard Dumas = John (grocery bagger) starks

No wonder MJ shot 41% in 2002....Craig Ehlo and Richard Dumas were gone.

[KG215]

pshhhttt...Kobe would merk Ehlo and drop 81 again...Kobe vs terry Porter woul R@9E...Kobe vs Richard Dumas = John (grocery bagger) starks

No wonder MJ shot 41% in 2002....Craig Ehlo and Richard Dumas were gone.

Does this actually sound smart when you're typing it? Like does this crap actually make sense and seem rational when you go to post it? Jordan was 38, coming off a stretch where he had sat out three seasons, and was obviously FAR from his prime. I mean he was just a shell of what he used to be.

Why do Kobe stans like to nitpick certain things from Jordan's years in Washington to try and prop Kobe up and use it as evidence as to why Kobe was as good or better than Jordan?

[Rasheed1]

Like Mike, if i could be like Mike!

http://www.terezowens.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/young-kobe-in-Italy.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_vhwxA1psuxE/Sjeo75oPmKI/AAAAAAAAAYQ/1eud9UwTZiM/s400/kobe_jordan1_308_020612.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/lakers/kobe_jordan_254_020612.jpg
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m97z14ESKp1ruh0ato1_500.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_PkA4JK0sNZk/TCpcUo_Z0CI/AAAAAAAABdY/m0A_54C6W4o/s1600/kobe+jordan+forma-si.jpg
http://turnernbaallball.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/kobe-mj.jpg
http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/705/792/Michael-Jordan-and-Kobe-Bryant_display_image.jpg



Ya favorite rapper's favorite rapper..

[juju151111]

Stockton/Malone Jazz??...really?

That team was soft as **** Adam Keefe as teh Enforcer...:lol

nearly 20 seasons of great basketball....but come on.

(funny part is when MJ stans say "MJ kept Malone from winning"..:lol what happened the other 18 seasons?)

.....Jordan's watered down 90's....Oh NOOO! here Comes Kevin Duckworth and CliFF Robinson!!....Richard Dumas Tod Kliene.....Detlef Shremp and Shawn Kemp!!...scary!

pshhhttt...Kobe would merk Ehlo and drop 81 again...Kobe vs terry Porter woul R@9E...Kobe vs Richard Dumas = John (grocery bagger) starks

No wonder MJ shot 41% in 2002....Craig Ehlo and Richard Dumas were gone.
You have no clue what your talking about? Stockton n Mlone were two of the dirtiest players ever. LOL This is what happens when u literally have never watched any games of them put youtube clips.

[Ne 1]

They Bodied him...:confusedshrug: ...They doubled teamed from he elbow/block

My question to you is..."do you think players today don't get bodied the same way MJ did vs the Pistons?"..."Players today don't get doubled or Trapped?"

same tye of "outta the air" foul today - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq7wykbujjk&feature=fvst

another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfYV60vmBHE

another one - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRvqWmtR7-I&feature=player_detailpage#t=78s

anther one Kobe vs double team/triple team bringing the ball up - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNQPFCjBCIg&feature=player_detailpage#t=122s

"The Jordan rules"..der..derp..derp....no one played against tough defense before..derp

Jordan revisionist history is silly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3niomoQMQ

i'm being real, i've never seen MJ get defended that physically in a regular season game in the 80s. watch entire video. handchecking, pushing, bumping, clutching, fouls on jumpshots (not called), you see it all.

[juju151111]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3niomoQMQ

i'm being real, i've never seen MJ get defended that physically in a regular season game in the 80s. watch entire video. handchecking, pushing, bumping, clutching, fouls on jumpshots (not called), you see it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70 You were saying :bowdown:

[AlphaWolf24]

Does this actually sound smart when you're typing it? Like does this crap actually make sense and seem rational when you go to post it? Jordan was 38, coming off a stretch where he had sat out three seasons, and was obviously FAR from his prime. I mean he was just a shell of what he used to be.

Why do Kobe stans like to nitpick certain things from Jordan's years in Washington to try and prop Kobe up and use it as evidence as to why Kobe was as good or better than Jordan?


what's rational is looking at league wide FG%...

- Jordan shot 50% or higher 5 X's his first 6 seasons....

- He shot 50% one time his Final 9 seasons

- League wide FG% consistenly dropped from the early 90's

- Players who scored 20PPG at 50% or Higher was done by over 25 playesr from 1983 - 1992....It has only been done five times the past 15 years

- Jordan was mainly a jumpshooter in his twighlight...while he was not as athletic...(could create the same space on his jump shots) he was still fairly good enough ( he rested with time off twice through his career) to get his shot off consistently...as to why he was still a good scorer.

- this brings me to my last point....only a Space Jam doll hugging , Lay Flat collar wearing , HitIer mustache sporting Jordan stan like yourself.....would by pass all that.....all the leaguewide FG% dropping , the fact that defense changed drastically from the 80''s - early 90's (even the eye test is plain to identify..go watch 80's defense) and still say defense today is much easier to score against...

blame MJ's 41 - 43% his finals 2 years on bieng old...and Rusty...the same ol' tired excuses you guy's used in 95'

- The most shocking stat of all....he missed the Playoff's his Finals 2 seasons in the very weak east...I mean ....I know a championship would be hard....but missing the Playoff's???...in teh East?...during that era?

(waits for he was too old...rip hamilton , Stackhouse , Hughes are scrubs)

- and fans don't even have to use the Washington years...Just look at his Bull's seasons...his teams were stepping stones for teh good teams of the 80's...it wasn't until that era ended and the teams dismantled until he Finally could win.

when he was replaced by a CBA Player his team still were contenders...that tell's all that needs to be said..happened over the course of a 82 games ....was no fluke...Jordan stans Slight Kobe for playing with Shaq???...Jordans Team played Amazing without Him...they barely even missed him at all....he got replaced by a CBA player who never even played in the NBA in 5 years (talk about bieng Rusty)...and still only slipped 2 games....nearly beat the ECCHAMPIONS in 7 games.

- Pete Myers would have cried too if Kobe dropped 42 points on him in 1 1/2 quarters..




**** yeah I'm smart


say my name.

[AlphaWolf24]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3niomoQMQ

i'm being real, i've never seen MJ get defended that physically in a regular season game in the 80s. watch entire video. handchecking, pushing, bumping, clutching, fouls on jumpshots (not called), you see it all.


nearly identical (or like you said more physical) as any Piston / Bull
's game


Jordan Rules = play defense instead of sag off like the 80's:lol

[juju151111]

what's rational is looking at league wide FG%...

- Jordan shot 50% or higher 5 X's his first 6 seasons....

- He shot 50% one time his Final 9 seasons

- League wide FG% consistenly dropped from the early 90's

- Players who scored 20PPG at 50% or Higher was done by over 25 playesr from 1983 - 1992....It has only been done five times the past 15 years

- Jordan was mainly a jumpshooter in his twighlight...while he was not as athletic...(could create the same space on his jump shots) he was still fairly good enough ( he rested with time off twice through his career) to get his shot off consistently...as to why he was still a good scorer.

- this brings me to my last point....only a Space Jam doll hugging , Lay Flat collar wearing , HitIer mustache sporting Jordan stan like yourself.....would by pass all that.....all the leaguewide FG% dropping , the fact that defense changed drastically from the 80''s - early 90's (even the eye test is plain to identify..go watch 80's defense) and still say defense today is much easier to score against...

blame MJ's 41 - 43% his finals 2 years on bieng old...and Rusty...the same ol' tired excuses you guy's used in 95'

- The most shocking stat of all....he missed the Playoff's his Finals 2 seasons in the very weak east...I mean ....I know a championship would be hard....but missing the Playoff's???...in teh East?...during that era?

(waits for he was too old...rip hamilton , Stackhouse , Hughes are scrubs)

- and fans don't even have to use the Washington years...Just look at his Bull's seasons...his teams were stepping stones for teh good teams of the 80's...it wasn't until that era ended and the teams dismantled until he Finally could win.

when he was replaced by a CBA Player his team still were contenders...that tell's all that needs to be said..happened over the course of a 82 games ....was no fluke...Jordan stans Slight Kobe for playing with Shaq???...Jordans Team played Amazing without Him...they barely even missed him at all....he got replaced by a CBA player who never even played in the NBA in 5 years (talk about bieng Rusty)...and still only slipped 2 games....nearly beat the ECCHAMPIONS in 7 games.

- Pete Myers would have cried too if Kobe dropped 42 points on him in 1 1/2 quarters..




**** yeah I'm smart


say my name.
MJ started shooting lower because of age dumbass. He still shot 49.5% in 96 and 48% in 97. In 98 Mj had a crack knuckle. Unless you wannt to make the arguement that 96-98 Mj was the offensive monster that 88-93 MJ was LMAO :hammerhead:

[Poetry]

You have no clue what your talking about? Stockton n Mlone were two of the dirtiest players ever. LOL This is what happens when u literally have never watched any games of them put youtube clips.

I recall Rodman calling Stockton a "dirty defender."

[AlphaWolf24]

MJ started shooting lower because of age dumbass. He still shot 49.5% in 96 and 48% in 97. In 98 Mj had a crack knuckle. Unless you wannt to make the arguement that 96-98 Mj was the offensive monster that 88-93 MJ was LMAO :hammerhead:


so the whole league had cracked knuckles???:hammerhead: ....the whole league just got old:hammerhead: ..league wide FG% dropped

Jordan''s role also changed ...that also played into his scoring.. Jordan was in the same Role Kobe has been in nearly his whole career...facilitate early...take over in the 4th quarter....

[AlphaWolf24]

You have no clue what your talking about? Stockton n Mlone were two of the dirtiest players ever. LOL This is what happens when u literally have never watched any games of them put youtube clips.


- Stockton was known to use slight tactics when slipping screens....Malone got a slight rep for his offense more then his defense...he would knee and elbow when attacking the lane on offense.

- I have forgotten more basketball then you have watched...I would never classify the late 90's Jazz as the same catagory as the Pistons or Celtics.

Frank Brickowski , Payton and Hawkins were a far better/dirtyier team then the Jazz.

[SwayDizzle]

LOL @ the jokers that say Kobe isn't in the same class as MJ. He can do everything MJ did, all the moves, has the mindset, has an impeccable resume. What the f*ck else do you noobs want? Ok, Kobe isn't better than MJ was, but he sure as hell is in the same tier of greatness.

[sekachu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3niomoQMQ

i'm being real, i've never seen MJ get defended that physically in a regular season game in the 80s. watch entire video. handchecking, pushing, bumping, clutching, fouls on jumpshots (not called), you see it all.



Are you fxxking real?:biggums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU

1988 game.

[Ne 1]

The most physical era in the NBA was actually the 70s. And rules eliminated REAL, physical handchecking in '79:

[QUOTE]1978-79
Clarification added to prohibit hand-checking through

[DJ Leon Smith]

LOL @ the jokers that say Kobe isn't in the same class as MJ. He can do everything MJ did, all the moves, has the mindset, has an impeccable resume.

He lost in the NBA Finals as a favorite twice, was part of record breaking losses (the 24-point first half lead at home, 39-point deciding game loss), and missed the playoffs in his prime. I wouldn't even say Jordan had an impeccable resume (does anyone?), but to say Kobe has one is the funniest thing I will ever read.

[AlphaWolf24]

Are you fxxking real?:biggums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU

1988 game.


That was some of the worse exampls:roll:

Kenny walker receeded like Lebrons hairline everytime MJ drove:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

He lost in the NBA Finals as a favorite twice, was part of record breaking losses (the 24-point first half lead at home, 39-point deciding game loss), and missed the playoffs in his prime. I wouldn't even say Jordan had an impeccable resume (does anyone?), but to say Kobe has one is the funniest thing I will ever read.


5 sub .500 losing seasons ( by far the mot of any top 10 player)>Losing in the Finals..

Jordan stan Criteria = :hammerhead:

[Ne 1]

Are you fxxking real?:biggums:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwoWli_rlVU

1988 game.

Yeah man, no blood, no foul. It was straight up prison ball in the 80's and 90's.

Anyone can dig up random pictures/YouTube clips. Just watch the games man, these 80s/90s clowns point to specific edited sequences they've spotted and act like every possession was like that. They don't even help their case at this point, people are so sick of hearing these myths.

http://kandjsports.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kobe-raja.jpg

http://www.thefeinline.com/photos/Hard%20Foul.jpg

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Denver+Nuggets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+Game+5+75jblqU cD3Gl.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_kobe2_576.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zxsbVMrOUNw/Son-8X5U-CI/AAAAAAAACkQ/L89dACcghDY/s400/kobe-bleeding-warriors.jpg

^ I'll be using those pictures to manipulate kids who watch ball in 2020's. Yeah, the Pistons were dirty/scrappy as hell but lets not act like the whole era was like that. Kobe (who drives a LOT less than MJ mind you) was played just as physically in some games during the Nuggets series in '09 as MJ was in any of those Pistons series (tripped by players grabbing his feet, clotheslined a couple of times as he drove, whacked in the face regularly etc etc).

[DJ Leon Smith]

5 sub .500 losing seasons ( by far the mot of any top 10 player)>Losing in the Finals..

Jordan stan Criteria = :hammerhead:

No one said Jordan had an impeccable resume. Reading is fundamental. Unlike Kobe's shot selection.

[Rasheed1]

http://imkeithhernandez.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/knockout_kobe__childs.jpg

[KG215]

Yeah man, no blood, no foul. It was straight up prison ball in the 80's and 90's.

Anyone can dig up random pictures/YouTube clips. Just watch the games man, these 80s/90s clowns point to specific edited sequences they've spotted and act like every possession was like that. They don't even help their case at this point, people are so sick of hearing these myths.


That's exactly what you did just a few minutes ago! You "dug up" a random Youtube clip to say you never saw anyone play that physically against Jordan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT3niomoQMQ

i'm being real, i've never seen MJ get defended that physically in a regular season game in the 80s. watch entire video. handchecking, pushing, bumping, clutching, fouls on jumpshots (not called), you see it all.

[KG215]

Serious question AlphaWolf: You're an NBA GM and have to choose between Jordan and Kobe to start your franchise, who do you pick?

[AlphaWolf24]

No one said Jordan had an impeccable resume. Reading is fundamental. Unlike Kobe's shot selection.


You are right...Losing in the Finals is a Huge difference between haveing a sub .500 season..

unlike MJ's and Kobe shot selection/impact/overall FG%


shot selection = 52%TS career.....
(PS: MJ's is 54%)


2%..marginal....at best

[DJ Leon Smith]

You are right...Losing in the Finals is a Huge difference between haveing a sub .500 season..

unlike MJ's and Kobe shot selection/impact/overall FG%


shot selection = 52%TS career.....
(PS: MJ's is 54%)


2%..marginal....at best

http://www.thegreenhead.com/imgs/funny-t-shirt-2010-winter-olympics-nobody-cares-5.jpg

[juju151111]

so the whole league had cracked knuckles???:hammerhead: ....the whole league just got old:hammerhead: ..league wide FG% dropped

Jordan''s role also changed ...that also played into his scoring.. Jordan was in the same Role Kobe has been in nearly his whole career...facilitate early...take over in the 4th quarter....
I don't give a freak about the whole League. I'm talking about MJ. Your comparing 96-98 to prime Mj which is no competition. Payton during the 96 finals said Mj was easier to guard now because u can tire him out and he is not flying everywhere. In 96 Mj still shot a rounded up 50%. Just like Kobe FG% went down at 33.

[juju151111]

Yeah man, no blood, no foul. It was straight up prison ball in the 80's and 90's.

Anyone can dig up random pictures/YouTube clips. Just watch the games man, these 80s/90s clowns point to specific edited sequences they've spotted and act like every possession was like that. They don't even help their case at this point, people are so sick of hearing these myths.

http://kandjsports.files.wordpress.com/2008/04/kobe-raja.jpg

http://www.thefeinline.com/photos/Hard%20Foul.jpg

http://www3.pictures.gi.zimbio.com/Denver+Nuggets+v+Los+Angeles+Lakers+Game+5+75jblqU cD3Gl.jpg

http://a.espncdn.com/photo/2009/0609/nba_g_kobe2_576.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zxsbVMrOUNw/Son-8X5U-CI/AAAAAAAACkQ/L89dACcghDY/s400/kobe-bleeding-warriors.jpg

^ I'll be using those pictures to manipulate kids who watch ball in 2020's. Yeah, the Pistons were dirty/scrappy as hell but lets not act like the whole era was like that. Kobe (who drives a LOT less than MJ mind you) was played just as physically in some games during the Nuggets series in '09 as MJ was in any of those Pistons series (tripped by players grabbing his feet, clotheslined a couple of times as he drove, whacked in the face regularly etc etc).
First ur bitch ass post a video cliaming u never seen that before and two people responding with vids shutting u down now u posting random ass pics lmao

[juju151111]

That was some of the worse exampls:roll:

Kenny walker receeded like Lebrons hairline everytime MJ drove:facepalm
Samething in the Kobe video n u never responded to my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOS1qNTWb70

[AlphaWolf24]

Serious question AlphaWolf: You're an NBA GM and have to choose between Jordan and Kobe to start your franchise, who do you pick?


really tough question....

I'll try to break it down barney style..

Michael Jordan

http://blogs.houstonpress.com/hairballs/michael-jordan-dunking.jpg

Pros

1. Hugely Popular player...becomes a global Icon. Changes the way Athletes are marketed forever....combines with Nike to create the Air Jordan Brand.....Generates $$$$$$ for Franchise

2. One of the greatest Winners of alltime.....his iconic moments are burned into fans memories more then any player ever

3. One of the greatest leaders ever...never settles to be just good enough, always pushes himself/teamates to the edge...always wants to win.

4. Under his watch Helps Your Franchise win 6 titles

5. Continues to be hugely popular after he's gone..still makes the franchise money...goes on to stay in the NBA as a GM/owner

Cons

1. Leaves the NBA at the hieght of his popularity...sets the franchise in Limbo

2. Crazy competitive mentality may wear down teammates and coaches/GM's at times....many disputes occur over his career....current and former teamates clash and burn bridges

3. Of the court Drama causes Lockeroom problems....set's the Franchise in constant state of clean up

4. Can only win with a eccentric head coach who can get inside his head and calm down the fire from burning outta control...

5. After retirement continues to constantly bombard former teammates/GM's coaches...takes a little shine from teh Franchise

Kobe Bryant

http://streetballblog.com/wp-content/gallery/kobe-bryant-wallpaper/kobe_bryant_team_usa_wallpaper.jpg

Pros

1. The most Polarizing player in History...simply put....he joins the NBA at 17 years old....fans grow up with him through his teenage years to adulthood...they know him...good or bad we can't help but watch.

2. Loves to play basketball...it is crystal clear as you watch him play...there is no place he would rather be then playing basketball....Joins the NBA at 17...and plays 16 straight years without stopping for air...makes your Franchise tons of $$$$$

3.Widely popular in the USA...but overseas is viewed as an Icon...

4. One of the greatest winners in NBA History , Under his watch helps your franchise to 5 NBA Titles and still going strong..unwavering will to win

5. Other players love to play with him...a good leader with an unparalled work ethic will always gaurantee you have a chance to win.

Cons

1. A desire to always be the best ...to always be the headline can strain on teamates/coaches at times....so confident in his ability he may not trust teamates when they struggle...

2. off the court problems seriously damage reputation....put the Franchise in Limbo...he still plays through it but may cause major problems.

3. Needs a coach with a strong backbone...any coach who bends a little will be a sign of weakness....Kobe does not Bend...may sabotage in order to get his way

4. Keeps constant pressure on Franchise....Franchise must stay at the top

5. Could possibly play until he is 40 years old...how will the GM hold up?


Hard to pick..especially when we don't know how Kobe's career ends up ..( more Titles?...ect)


I'm a gambling man...i will take GawdBE for a longer more acomplished Championship career.

[KG215]

really tough question....

I'll try to break it down barney style..

Michael Jordan

Pros

1. Hugely Popular player...becomes a global Icon. Changes the way Athletes are marketed forever....combines with Nike to create the Air Jordan Brand.....Generates $$$$$$ for Franchise

2. One of the greatest Winners of alltime.....his iconic moments are burned into fans memories more then any player ever

3. One of the greatest leaders ever...never settles to be just good enough, always pushes himself/teamates to the edge...always wants to win.

4. Under his watch Helps Your Franchise win 6 titles

5. Continues to be hugely popular after he's gone..still makes the franchise money...goes on to stay in the NBA as a GM/owner

Cons

1. Leaves the NBA at the hieght of his popularity...sets the franchise in Limbo

2. Crazy competitive mentality may wear down teammates and coaches/GM's at times....many disputes occur over his career....current and former teamates clash and burn bridges

3. Off the court Drama causes Lockeroom problems....set's the Franchise in constant state of clean up

4. Can only win with a eccentric head coach who can get inside his head and calm down the fire from burning outta control...

5. After retirement continues to constantly bombard former teammates/GM's coaches...takes a little shine from teh Franchise

Kobe Bryant

1. The most Polarizing player in History...simply put....he joins the NBA at 17 years old....fans grow up with him through his teenage years to adulthood...they know him...good or bad we can't help but watch.

2. Loves to play basketball...it is crystal clear as you watch him play...there is no place he would rather be then playing basketball....Joins the NBA at 17...and plays 16 straight years without stopping for air...makes your Franchise tons of $$$$$

3.Widely popular in the USA...but overseas is viewed as an Icon...

4. One of the greatest winners in NBA History , Under his watch helps your franchise to 5 NBA Titles and still going strong..unwavering will to win

5. Other players love to play with him...a good leader with an unparalled work ethic will always gaurantee you have a chance to win.

Cons

1. A desire to always be the best ...to always be the headline can strain on teamates/coaches at times....so confident in his ability he may not trust teamates when they struggle...

2. off the court problems seriously damage reputation....put the Franchise in Limbo...he still plays through it but may cause major problems.

3. Needs a coach with a strong backbone...any coach who bends a little will be a sign of weakness....Kobe does not Bend...may sabotage in order to get his way

4. Keeps constant pressure on Franchise....Franchise must stay at the top

5. Could possibly play until he is 40 years old...how will the GM hold up?


Hard to pick..especially when we don't know how Kobe's career ends up ..( more Titles?...ect)


I'm a gambling man...i will take GawdBE for a longer more acomplished Championship career.

I should've added "with the sole purpose of winning as many games and championships as possible" to my question, because you've added things like popularity and Kobe playing more seasons than Jordan to make your case for him. Should've also added that Jordan isn't going to take a 1.5 season break at the height of his powers.

Not sure why things like national and global popularity need to even be listed since both players are/were hugely popular and global icons. Same thing with the coaches since both players won their collective 11 rings under the same coach.

The way you did it is fine. Most of your points are valid and I agree with them; but I was mainly asking to see who you think the better player is/was between Jordan and Kobe.

[9erempiree]

I will take the god as well, Kobe Bryant, because we already knew what MJ can do.

We don't know how many more rings Kobe can get and if he gets 6 then he would be equal to MJ as far as started a franchise with but the possibility of getting mulitple-more titles is good enough to say you want to start a franchise with.

Right now you start a franchise with Kobe. At the end of his career, if he doesn't win more than MJ, then you would have to pick Jordan.

[9erempiree]

I should've added "with the sole purpose of winning as many games and championships as possible" to my question, because you've added things like popularity and Kobe playing more seasons than Jordan to make your case for him. Should've also added that Jordan isn't going to take a 1.5 season break at the height of his powers.

Not sure why things like national and global popularity need to even be listed since both players are/were hugely popular and global icons. Same thing with the coaches since both players won their collective 11 rings under the same coach.

The way you did it is fine. Most of your points are valid and I agree with them; but I was mainly asking to see who you think the better player is/was between Jordan and Kobe.

with the sole purpose of winning as much games and championships?

Still go with Kobe because he can win more and probably will. With MJ, he's stuck at only 6.

[KG215]

with the sole purpose of winning as much games and championships?

Still go with Kobe because he can win more and probably will. With MJ, he's stuck at only 6.

Kobe has only won two rings as the lead dog compared to Jordan's six. The whole purpose of the question was to see who you'd rather build your team around. Kobe isn't getting to play the first eight years of his career with Shaq. He's coming into the league in this scenario as the team's best player with a team built around him.

Besides, what kind of stupid premise is that? "Still go with Kobe because he can win more and probably will. With MJ, he's stuck at only 6." Kobe still needs one more just to tie Jordan and, even then, Jordan won his 6 as the unquestioned lead-dog of his teams. Kobe has 2 rings as the unquestioned lead-dog of his team. Yes, he was very key in those Lakers 3-peats with Shaq, but in this scenario you have to assume he's not getting to play with someone as great as peak Shaq.

I think Kobe is a great player. I have him at #9 on my all-time list and don't have a problem with those that want to rank him as high as #7. But I don't know how anyone can say, with a straight face, they'd take Kobe over Jordan to build a franchise around. I guess if you truly and honestly believe that, more power to ya.

[TheMan]

Stockton/Malone Jazz??...really?

That team was soft as **** Adam Keefe as teh Enforcer...:lol

nearly 20 seasons of great basketball....but come on.

(funny part is when MJ stans say "MJ kept Malone from winning"..:lol what happened the other 18 seasons?)

.....Jordan's watered down 90's....Oh NOOO! here Comes Kevin Duckworth and CliFF Robinson!!....Richard Dumas Tod Kliene.....Detlef Shremp and Shawn Kemp!!...scary!

pshhhttt...Kobe would merk Ehlo and drop 81 again...Kobe vs terry Porter woul R@9E...Kobe vs Richard Dumas = John (grocery bagger) starks

No wonder MJ shot 41% in 2002....Craig Ehlo and Richard Dumas were gone.
Kobe struggled against the mighty Eric Snow:bowdown:

MJ shot 41% as a 42 year old, Kobe shot an immense 43%:bowdown: last year, what's his excuse? Kobe keeps that trend, he'll be shooting 35% in 2 years :lol

owned

next

[TheMan]

Stockton/Malone Jazz??...really?

That team was soft as **** Adam Keefe as teh Enforcer...:lol

nearly 20 seasons of great basketball....but come on.

(funny part is when MJ stans say "MJ kept Malone from winning"..:lol what happened the other 18 seasons?)

.....Jordan's watered down 90's....Oh NOOO! here Comes Kevin Duckworth and CliFF Robinson!!....Richard Dumas Tod Kliene.....Detlef Shremp and Shawn Kemp!!...scary!

pshhhttt...Kobe would merk Ehlo and drop 81 again...Kobe vs terry Porter woul R@9E...Kobe vs Richard Dumas = John (grocery bagger) starks

No wonder MJ shot 41% in 2002....Craig Ehlo and Richard Dumas were gone.

In 18 seasons, Malone made it 3 times to the Finals, yes Jordan and the Bulls DID deny him an NBA title and the other credit goes to Kobe who chucked the Lakers out of the title in 04 :bowdown:

see, Kobe also denied Karl Malone a title:lol

[AlphaWolf24]

I get negged for showing why I would pick Kobe:roll:

I try to answer a question the best way I know...and this is the thanks I get?

:oldlol: stay MAD

[AlphaWolf24]

Kobe has only won two rings as the lead dog compared to Jordan's six. The whole purpose of the question was to see who you'd rather build your team around. Kobe isn't getting to play the first eight years of his career with Shaq. He's coming into the league in this scenario as the team's best player with a team built around him.

Besides, what kind of stupid premise is that? "Still go with Kobe because he can win more and probably will. With MJ, he's stuck at only 6." Kobe still needs one more just to tie Jordan and, even then, Jordan won his 6 as the unquestioned lead-dog of his teams. Kobe has 2 rings as the unquestioned lead-dog of his team. Yes, he was very key in those Lakers 3-peats with Shaq, but in this scenario you have to assume he's not getting to play with someone as great as peak Shaq.

I think Kobe is a great player. I have him at #9 on my all-time list and don't have a problem with those that want to rank him as high as #7. But I don't know how anyone can say, with a straight face, they'd take Kobe over Jordan to build a franchise around. I guess if you truly and honestly believe that, more power to ya.



- Actually Kobe and Jordan both won championships in similar roles...pick your spots early...Dominate th 4th quarters..

yes you can point out the Finals MVP award..but anyone who watched the Playoff's saw that Kobe was the main option in the 4th quarters...and Dominated the WCFinals (the real championships)...and th iconic Gam 7 in 2000 will always stand alone...Kobe was the best player that started the whole 3 PEAT.

- That's why to the majority of fans the FMVP's hold little weight in this comparison...Both players playe similar roles and had similar results...in fact after the 01' series vs the 2nd best team (spurs) Kobe put 33PPG 7REB 7AST many had Kobe as the best player in the league....at only 22 years old....he could sit back and let Shaq/ even Travis Knight beat up on the weak eastern conference teams.

- 5 titles in the same role as MJ....and already showed he can back 2 back witout Shaq......Jordan without PiP = .46 winning % 1 - 10 in the playoffs

[Horatio33]

- Actually Kobe and Jordan both won championships in similar roles...pick your spots early...Dominate th 4th quarters..

yes you can point out the Finals MVP award..but anyone who watched the Playoff's saw that Kobe was the main option in the 4th quarters...and Dominated the WCFinals (the real championships)...and th iconic Gam 7 in 2000 will always stand alone...Kobe was the best player that started the whole 3 PEAT.

- That's why to the majority of fans the FMVP's hold little weight in this comparison...Both players playe similar roles and had similar results...in fact after the 01' series vs the 2nd best team (spurs) Kobe put 33PPG 7REB 7AST many had Kobe as the best player in the league....at only 22 years old....he could sit back and let Shaq/ even Travis Knight beat up on the weak eastern conference teams.

- 5 titles in the same role as MJ....and already showed he can back 2 back witout Shaq......Jordan without PiP = .46 winning % 1 - 10 in the playoffs

Absolute bollocks. You never saw that era. Bet you started watching the NA in 2007. That ball always went to Shaq, never kobe. MJ was always first option like Shaq. Phil Jackson said it.

Kobe may have done some 4th quarter scoring but Shaq opened the perimeter up by attracting double teams. Revisionist BS coming from kobestans.

Wasn't Kobe's record in 2002-03 season near .500 without Shaq and the Lakers had to make a mad dash when Shaq came back to make the playoffs which tired them out in the playoffs? Shaq is to blame for avoiding surgery but he was out nearly half a season and kobe could barely drag them to .500.

[TheMan]

:facepalm
- Actually Kobe and Jordan both won championships in similar roles...pick your spots early...Dominate th 4th quarters..

yes you can point out the Finals MVP award..but anyone who watched the Playoff's saw that Kobe was the main option in the 4th quarters...and Dominated the WCFinals (the real championships)...and th iconic Gam 7 in 2000 will always stand alone...Kobe was the best player that started the whole 3 PEAT.

- That's why to the majority of fans the FMVP's hold little weight in this comparison...Both players playe similar roles and had similar results...in fact after the 01' series vs the 2nd best team (spurs) Kobe put 33PPG 7REB 7AST many had Kobe as the best player in the league....at only 22 years old....he could sit back and let Shaq/ even Travis Knight beat up on the weak eastern conference teams.

- 5 titles in the same role as MJ....and already showed he can back 2 back witout Shaq......Jordan without PiP = .46 winning % 1 - 10 in the playoffs
Bullshit revisionist history, are you that retarded to suggest that Kobe was the best player in the Lakers first threepeat?:facepalm That's a first. Kobe got 2 as the first option, he got his first 3 as a sidekick. I'll put it this way, Kobe was replaceable at that point, who you gonna replace the most dominating big man of his time with?:facepalm

fact, deal with it.

You
are
hopeless.

[TheMan]

I will take the god as well, Kobe Bryant, because we already knew what MJ can do.

We don't know how many more rings Kobe can get and if he gets 6 then he would be equal to MJ as far as started a franchise with but the possibility of getting mulitple-more titles is good enough to say you want to start a franchise with.

Right now you start a franchise with Kobe. At the end of his career, if he doesn't win more than MJ, then you would have to pick Jordan.

Newsflash, we've already seen the best of Kobe, he's in downhill mode, yeah, father time sucks but it is what it is...fvck, with prime Dwight on the Lakers, Kobe isn't even the best player on his team.

[juju151111]

- Actually Kobe and Jordan both won championships in similar roles...pick your spots early...Dominate th 4th quarters..

yes you can point out the Finals MVP award..but anyone who watched the Playoff's saw that Kobe was the main option in the 4th quarters...and Dominated the WCFinals (the real championships)...and th iconic Gam 7 in 2000 will always stand alone...Kobe was the best player that started the whole 3 PEAT.

- That's why to the majority of fans the FMVP's hold little weight in this comparison...Both players playe similar roles and had similar results...in fact after the 01' series vs the 2nd best team (spurs) Kobe put 33PPG 7REB 7AST many had Kobe as the best player in the league....at only 22 years old....he could sit back and let Shaq/ even Travis Knight beat up on the weak eastern conference teams.

- 5 titles in the same role as MJ....and already showed he can back 2 back witout Shaq......Jordan without PiP = .46 winning % 1 - 10 in the playoffs
Post the 4th Q numbers for Shaq and Kobe throughout the 3 peat

[RazorBaLade]

its a stupid argument when the sidekick is putting up 29 6 6......... the word means nothing at that point

[branslowski]

Could it be that Jordan was better at shaking his man off? Or he was better at creating space on his fade away J? There are clips of the Pistons and Knicks players on Jordan, last I heard they were considered pretty good on D.

Just saying, kid...

Jordan is better, but the defense on Kobe is clearly better.

[AlphaWolf24]

:facepalm
Bullshit revisionist history, are you that retarded to suggest that Kobe was the best player in the Lakers first threepeat?:facepalm That's a first. Kobe got 2 as the first option, he got his first 3 as a sidekick. I'll put it this way, Kobe was replaceable at that point, who you gonna replace the most dominating big man of his time with?:facepalm

fact, deal with it.

You
are
hopeless.


revisionist??...so ESPN didn't call Kobe the best player in the NBA back in 2001....??

- at least it proves I'm talking about reality when I say " Kobe was viewed as the best allround player in the league in 2001"

- it also proves you just a blind hater who can't recognize game when it's in yo face.

[juju151111]

revisionist??...so ESPN didn't call Kobe the best player in the NBA back in 2001....??

- at least it proves I'm talking about reality when I say " Kobe was viewed as the best allround player in the league in 2001"

- it also proves you just a blind hater who can't recognize game when it's in yo face.
Post the 4 Q numbers

[juju151111]

Jordan is better, but the defense on Kobe is clearly better.
No it wasn't

[AlphaWolf24]

No it wasn't
post the defensive ratings in the different era's...post teh FG% of the league...Pos the amount of times players scored 20PPG at 50% FG compared to madern NBA...

[branslowski]

No it wasn't

Im talkin about in the video.

[juju151111]

post the defensive ratings in the different era's...post teh FG% of the league...Pos the amount of times players scored 20PPG at 50% FG compared to madern NBA...
Drtg is retarded. The wizards are rated higher then the bulls in 90s. :lol :roll: :roll: :lol
Now post the 4Q numbers for Shaq/Kobe

[TheMan]

revisionist??...so ESPN didn't call Kobe the best player in the NBA back in 2001....??

- at least it proves I'm talking about reality when I say " Kobe was viewed as the best allround player in the league in 2001"

- it also proves you just a blind hater who can't recognize game when it's in yo face.
ESPN, nuff said. Shaq was the Lakers best player in that threepeat, kobe stan.

[AlphaWolf24]

ESPN, nuff said. Shaq was the Lakers best player in that threepeat, kobe stan.


ESPN , Phil > random Jordan stan who never watched him play

[Ne 1]

ESPN , Phil > random Jordan stan who never watched him play
Shaq also called Kobe "the best player in the world" back in '01 during the playoffs.

[AlphaWolf24]

Shaq also called Kobe "the best player in the world" back in '01 during the playoffs.


anyone who watched basketball knows Kobe was arguably the best player in the NBA in 2001...when he Dominated Duncans Spurs it just reinforced that thought...

Jordan stans scared...

[KG215]

anyone who watched basketball knows Kobe was arguably the best player in the NBA in 2001...when he Dominated Duncans Spurs it just reinforced that thought...

Jordan stans scared...

It's post like these that remind me why I had you on ignore for so long. I mean, you kinda sorta know your stuff. I feel like you have a good understanding of basketball and have seen enough to speak knowledgeably about certain teams and players; but, for whatever reason, you're so blinded by your Kobe love, that you come off as ignorant and delusional way too often.

2001 Kobe was a top 3-5 player in the NBA, yes, but he was not "arguably the best player" in the NBA.

[KG215]

Shaq also called Kobe "the best player in the world" back in '01 during the playoffs.

What does that prove? What does Shaq have to gain by saying he's the best player in the world? And what good does it do for team chemistry and morale to say someone like Duncan or Garnett is the best player in the world? Thing is, Kobe was probably the 3rd or 4th best player in the NBA in 2001, but just because Shaq (his teammate) calls him the best in the world doesn't make it true.

[TheMan]

ESPN , Phil > random Jordan stan who never watched him play
fvck off as.shole, I 've been watching the NBA since the mid 80s, you, the moron who said Clyde Drexler was a worse Danny Granger, don't have a clue as to what you're talking about and you like calling other peiple stans when you seriously have Kobe's co.ck up your an.us.

[KOBE143]

Bullshit! Stop arguing already..

We already know Kobe>>>Jordan..

So deal with it..

[Ne 1]

What does that prove? What does Shaq have to gain by saying he's the best player in the world? And what good does it do for team chemistry and morale to say someone like Duncan or Garnett is the best player in the world? Thing is, Kobe was probably the 3rd or 4th best player in the NBA in 2001, but just because Shaq (his teammate) calls him the best in the world doesn't make it true.

Just making a point for those who just think Kobe was some dispensable side-kick. Shaq was the best player in the league but to be fair there were series during the 3peat in which Kobe played every bit as good or even better than Shaq. Particularly from 2001-2002.

While Shaq was the best player, I think Kobe was the 2nd best player during the entire playoffs behind only Shaq.

[7_cody]

Just because Shaq was the best, doesn't mean that Kobe wasn't incredibly amazing in his own right. Kobe absolutely destroyed the Kings, who were far tougher competition than any team we faced in the Finals. Sure, Shaq was #1, but Kobe was better than #2 if that makes sense.

[Poetry]

Jordan stans scared...

What does "stans" mean? I see it used a lot on this forum.

[scandisk_]

Alpha knows MJ is da bosz...

Don't worry mang MJ fans got kobe on the 2nd spot of GOAT SGs..

next..

[TheMan]

What does "stans" mean? I see it used a lot on this forum.
It's derived from the Eminem song "Stan", it's basically a delusional fan of a certain playeer, AlphaWolf24 is the ultimate "stan", yet that idiot likes throwing that term around to others.

[Ne 1]

Just because Shaq was the best, doesn't mean that Kobe wasn't incredibly amazing in his own right. Kobe absolutely destroyed the Kings, who were far tougher competition than any team we faced in the Finals. Sure, Shaq was #1, but Kobe was better than #2 if that makes sense.

Yup, and there are actually quite a few titles that players won as "the man" that I don't view as more of an accomplishment than Kobe's '01 and '02 titles. I do give a little more credit to Shaq, but here's another reason why Kobe's titles weren't typical second option titles.

How did LA's "3rd options" stack up to other title teams? Even in 2000, the Lakers were called "two deep" as opposed to Portland who were called "too deep" in the WCF. If I ranked the top 50 players those years, I guarantee there wouldn't be a 3rd Laker in the list and I don't think anyone can make an argument that there were 3 Lakers that were top 50. In fact, I think it's obvious that the other 3 starters on those teams, while solid role players, were below average compared to the other starters at their position. That's why they needed Shaq averaging 27-30 ppg and Kobe averaging 25-29 ppg. Shaq was LA's first option, but there wasn't another player in perhaps the history of the league during the 3peat that wouldn't have been a "second option" next to Shaq. And as I've said many times, Kobe was the second best player in the entire 2001 playoffs.

From Phil Jackson on Kobe's play during the 2001 post season:

When asked to compare Kobe to Michael: "Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times. So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now."

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."

[Hands of Iron]

Yup, and there are actually quite a few titles that players won as "the man" that I don't view as more of an accomplishment than Kobe's '01 and '02 titles. I do give a little more credit to Shaq, but here's another reason why Kobe's titles weren't typical second option titles.

How did LA's "3rd options" stack up to other title teams? Even in 2000, the Lakers were called "two deep" as opposed to Portland who were called "too deep" in the WCF. If I ranked the top 50 players those years, I guarantee there wouldn't be a 3rd Laker in the list and I don't think anyone can make an argument that there were 3 Lakers that were top 50. In fact, I think it's obvious that the other 3 starters on those teams, while solid role players, were below average compared to the other starters at their position. That's why they needed Shaq averaging 27-30 ppg and Kobe averaging 25-29 ppg. Shaq was LA's first option, but there wasn't another player in perhaps the history of the league during the 3peat that wouldn't have been a "second option" next to Shaq. And as I've said many times, Kobe was the second best player in the entire 2001 playoffs.

From Phil Jackson on Kobe's play during the 2001 post season:

When asked to compare Kobe to Michael: "Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times. So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now."

"I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it. I never asked Michael to be a playmaker. That's the greatest player that I've ever had, that I could consider the greatest player in the game, and I never asked him to be a playmaker in those terms. I asked him to be playmaker when he was doubled or tripled. But Kobe has to set up the offense, to advance the ball, to read the defense, to make other players happy, and he's doing a great job of that."


It's just sad they can't ever be remembered as a Great Duo on places such as ISH. It's a constant struggle and see-saw of people trying to shit on Kobe's contributions and in turn, Shaq being downplayed and shit on by Kobe die hards as a sort of defense mechanism. Returning one extreme with another. Nobody in their right mind can deny the Lakers ran that offense through Shaq during the three-peat with things not truly starting to sway until 2002-03 (arguably Kobe's greatest season). Shaq was more dominant and impactful through the playoffs (more so 2000 & 2002) and put up GOAT level Finals performances -- He's the only player outside of prime Kareem to put up postseasons of 30/15 (over 15+ games) and did it in back-to-back seasons. It's hysterical a guy puts up historic playoff runs and Finals and ten years later, wasn't the best player on the team according to revisionist history; probably equally so that a Top 3-5 player in the NBA at the time was some sort of sidekick with little in the form of significant contribution. Those Lakers werent deep at all, they won three consecutive titles on the strength of two Top 10 all-time players, one in the middle of his peak and the other still yet to reach his.

[AlphaWolf24]

It's post like these that remind me why I had you on ignore for so long. I mean, you kinda sorta know your stuff. I feel like you have a good understanding of basketball and have seen enough to speak knowledgeably about certain teams and players; but, for whatever reason, you're so blinded by your Kobe love, that you come off as ignorant and delusional way too often.

2001 Kobe was a top 3-5 player in the NBA, yes, but he was not "arguably the best player" in the NBA.


- so the biggest sports Media outlet in the world calls Kobe "The best player in the league"....and I'm blinded because I said Many people viewed Kobe as teh best allaround player....

I said he was arguably the best player in 2001 after ESPN , Phil Jackson and even Shaq himself called Kobe the best player...

so that makes me blinded because after watching the 2001 season/playoffs I also concluded the same thought..

that makes me delusional?



- do you Basketball illiterate Jordan satns listen to the garbage you spew???

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2162000/AlphaWolf-2162827_2480_3229.jpg

there's the link , ESPN plain as day says "Kobe is the best player in the league at 22 years old.....all you have is your garbage opinion...I showed you multiple examples of Kobe bieng regarded as the best player....


as always you gave "0"



back in my pocket you go son...


























2EZ...next

[RRR3]

:kobe:

http://www.clipartreview.com/_images_300/A_dog_in_love_110112-236441-059009.jpg





:facepalm :facepalm :facepalm

[TheMan]

Lakers threepeat...

Shaq 3 FMVPs
Kobe 0

[Calabis]

- so the biggest sports Media outlet in the world calls Kobe "The best player in the league"....and I'm blinded because I said Many people viewed Kobe as teh best allaround player....

I said he was arguably the best player in 2001 after ESPN , Phil Jackson and even Shaq himself called Kobe the best player...

so that makes me blinded because after watching the 2001 season/playoffs I also concluded the same thought..

that makes me delusional?



- do you Basketball illiterate Jordan satns listen to the garbage you spew???

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2162000/AlphaWolf-2162827_2480_3229.jpg

there's the link , ESPN plain as day says "Kobe is the best player in the league at 22 years old.....all you have is your garbage opinion...I showed you multiple examples of Kobe bieng regarded as the best player....


as always you gave "0"



back in my pocket you go son...


























2EZ...next

ESPN also called Jordan the best athlete of the century and GOAT in basketball...now please STFU with u'r garbage!!

[Ne 1]

Lakers threepeat...

Shaq 3 FMVPs
Kobe 0

If there was an MVP for each series in '01 and '02 this is how it would go down...

'01:
vs. Blazers - Either, hard to pick.
vs. Kings - Could go with either, Shaq dominated first two games and Kobe the last two. Shaq is better if you combine the stats I think so you could give him the slight edge.
vs. Spurs - Kobe, but Shaq played well too.
vs. Sixers - Shaq

'02:
vs. Blazers - Shaq
vs. Spurs - Kobe (Shaq was injured in this series iirc which was the reason for his low offensive output, Lakers would have lost this series if it weren't for Kobe's fourth quarter play in the last 3 games)
vs. Kings - I'll say Shaq but after watching the series it was way closer than the stats say (Kobe was just as important as Shaq in the wins, but Shaq played better than him in the losses and Kobe had some horrific shooting nights in those games). Shaq also drew a crazy amount of defensive attention this series. I don't think I've seen a player get doubled/tripled like this ever.
vs. Nets - Shaq, but Kobe played well.

'00 was all Shaq though Kobe stepped up in huge moments and that was his peak defensive year which is part of the reason I think he isn't as replaceable as people think, even though statistically he wasn't a superstar yet. Although he was an All-Star, top 10 level player that year.

[Calabis]

Kobe alter boys are pathetic...I love how they love quoting Phil and other players, when its pro-Kobe...but when Phil says Jordan would avg 45 ppg with todays rules...he's full of shit, or when other all time greats, Kobe himself call Jordan GOAT, they are either paid by NIKE or being nice...lmao at this desperate MF'ers

[AlphaWolf24]

It's just sad they can't ever be remembered as a Great Duo on places such as ISH. It's a constant struggle and see-saw of people trying to shit on Kobe's contributions and in turn, Shaq being downplayed and shit on by Kobe die hards as a sort of defense mechanism. Returning one extreme with another. Nobody in their right mind can deny the Lakers ran that offense through Shaq during the three-peat with things not truly starting to sway until 2002-03 (arguably Kobe's greatest season). Shaq was more dominant and impactful through the playoffs (more so 2000 & 2002) and put up GOAT level Finals performances -- He's the only player outside of prime Kareem to put up postseasons of 30/15 (over 15+ games) and did it in back-to-back seasons. It's hysterical a guy puts up historic playoff runs and Finals and ten years later, wasn't the best player on the team according to revisionist history; probably equally so that a Top 3-5 player in the NBA at the time was some sort of sidekick with little in the form of significant contribution. Those Lakers werent deep at all, they won three consecutive titles on the strength of two Top 10 all-time players, one in the middle of his peak and the other still yet to reach his.


From soemone who was Living in So Cal at the time....It waasn't that clear who was teh best player...(That's what started the fueding....if it was crystal clear who the best pl;ayer was...then there would be no fued...everyone eould fall into place....but it wasn't)

read the link >http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2162000/AlphaWolf-2162827_2480_3229.jpg


- In many Lakers fans eyes (especially in Cali)....we Knew Kobe had enough work ethic and skill to be one of the greatest players ever...maybe the best.

- It was never a clear cut "who's the best"...Shaq dominated ...but Kobe also dominated and also captured more of the imagination of the fans....by 2001 he was a full fledged superstar and arguably the best player in the league (as I showed in my link)

- That's why a fued broke out...Shaq was in his prime and playing outta his mind..Kobe was 22 and shown the ability to be the best.....both wanted to be the Alpha Wolf...Fans knew it....players knew it.

- It was never clear cut (in most people /fans eyes)after 2000.....I remember D Fish saying "Kobe could have been the MVP" in 2001....

since Shaq was the older Vet , he definitley fueled the fire that Kobe should back down and let Him (shaq) be the man...but with Shaq's poor work ethic , inability to close games and Lazy defense....only a basketball illiterate would say he was far and away the most important piece of the Lakers....

- Kobe did everything...was much more of a dynamic player...did all the little things to win games...and played full court pressure defense...it was amazing to watch...

- by 2003 Kobe was putting up Wilt Chamberlaion scoring numbers...and was clearly ahead of Shaq in every Basketball sense.

- by 2005 Shaq was gone...a couple years Later Kobe would be a Champion again....crystal clear who was the best player of his generation....it wasn't even close.

[TheMan]

If there was an MVP for each series in '01 and '02 this is how it would go down...

'01:
vs. Blazers - Either, hard to pick.
vs. Kings - Could go with either, Shaq dominated first two games and Kobe the last two. Shaq is better if you combine the stats I think so you could give him the slight edge.
vs. Spurs - Kobe, but Shaq played well too.
vs. Sixers - Shaq

'02:
vs. Blazers - Shaq
vs. Spurs - Kobe (Shaq was injured in this series iirc which was the reason for his low offensive output, Lakers would have lost this series if it weren't for Kobe's fourth quarter play in the last 3 games)
vs. Kings - I'll say Shaq but after watching the series it was way closer than the stats say (Kobe was just as important as Shaq in the wins, but Shaq played better than him in the losses and Kobe had some horrific shooting nights in those games). Shaq also drew a crazy amount of defensive attention this series. I don't think I've seen a player get doubled/tripled like this ever.
vs. Nets - Shaq, but Kobe played well.

'00 was all Shaq though Kobe stepped up in huge moments and that was his peak defensive year which is part of the reason I think he isn't as replaceable as people think, even though statistically he wasn't a superstar yet. Although he was an All-Star, top 10 level player that year.

Don't get me wrong, obviously the Lakers don't win 3 in a row without Kobe, he was their second best player buy Shaq was the 1st option, he had double teams thrown at him, made it easier for Kobe and the rest of the Lakers to succeed.

Shaq was on top of his game in that era, Kobe was inching toward the elite but wasn't his peak yet...

[JellyBean]

Wow. That was pretty cool. Nobody can fill Michael Jordan shoes. But dang!!! Kobe comes pretty darn close in terms of that focus, passion, energy, hard work, and competing and winning. We are going to miss Kobe when he retires.

[AlphaWolf24]

ESPN also called Jordan the best athlete of the century and GOAT in basketball...now please STFU with u'r garbage!!


:confusedshrug: ok...what is your point?

[Calabis]

Wow. That was pretty cool. Nobody can fill Michael Jordan shoes. But dang!!! Kobe comes pretty darn close in terms of that focus, passion, energy, hard work, and competing and winning. We are going to miss Kobe when he retires.

This exactly^^^^:applause: , he is close...but unfortunately when saying Jordan was better, this somehow processes into these nutbags brains "Kobe =garbage"

No he's a all time great a Top 10 player of All Time...leave it at that

[AlphaWolf24]

Don't get me wrong, obviously the Lakers don't win 3 in a row without Kobe, he was their second best player buy Shaq was the 1st option, he had double teams thrown at him, made it easier for Kobe and the rest of the Lakers to succeed.

Shaq was on top of his game in that era, Kobe was inching toward the elite but wasn't his peak yet...


How are you the best player when you are a liabilityin the 4th quarter/most important part of the game???

How are you the best player...when you have the greatest player of the generation playing first team defense full court, all while scoring 30PPG

How are you the best player whe the whole fanbase /GM/owner knows your injury prone/poor wor ethic and trades you?

that's not bieng the best playe overall...that's bieng the oher.

[Calabis]

:confusedshrug: ok...what is your point?

My point really? According to you Kobe is better, u back this up with ESPN quotes, saying he's the best in league 2001, blah blah blah... you then say Jordan is a media hype a creation......Kobe is GOD, cuz his play......yet ESPN calls Jordan GOAT and its because media hype:confusedshrug:

Make up u'r mind can't have it both ways...sad part is, u are knowledgeable and when not in tool mode, make some valid arguments, but for a guy claiming to have watched the Jordan era, u sure don't give Jordans on court play any credit...its weak era, short white dudes, can't play in todays league, crap over and over.....yet Kobe a less efficient/athletic version of MJ has had success in the league, even now past his prime....Kobe is the best of his generation, there is no dispute with this, but he's not, nor will he ever be better than Jordan

[TheMan]

From soemone who was Living in So Cal at the time....It waasn't that clear who was teh best player...(That's what started the fueding....if it was crystal clear who the best pl;ayer was...then there would be no fued...everyone eould fall into place....but it wasn't)

read the link >http://images4.fanpop.com/image/user_images/2162000/AlphaWolf-2162827_2480_3229.jpg


- In many Lakers fans eyes (especially in Cali)....we Knew Kobe had enough work ethic and skill to be one of the greatest players ever...maybe the best.

- It was never a clear cut "who's the best"...Shaq dominated ...but Kobe also dominated and also captured more of the imagination of the fans....by 2001 he was a full fledged superstar and arguably the best player in the league (as I showed in my link)

- That's why a fued broke out...Shaq was in his prime and playing outta his mind..Kobe was 22 and shown the ability to be the best.....both wanted to be the Alpha Wolf...Fans knew it....players knew it.

- It was never clear cut (in most people /fans eyes)after 2000.....I remember D Fish saying "Kobe could have been the MVP" in 2001....

since Shaq was the older Vet , he definitley fueled the fire that Kobe should back down and let Him (shaq) be the man...but with Shaq's poor work ethic , inability to close games and Lazy defense....only a basketball illiterate would say he was far and away the most important piece of the Lakers....

- Kobe did everything...was much more of a dynamic player...did all the little things to win games...and played full court pressure defense...it was amazing to watch...

- by 2003 Kobe was putting up Wilt Chamberlaion scoring numbers...and was clearly ahead of Shaq in every Basketball sense.


- by 2005 Shaq was gone...a couple years Later Kobe would be a Champion again....crystal clear who was the best player of his generation....it wasn't even close.
Yeah, let's ignore the fact that Kobe shot the Lakers away from the NBA title in 04, horrible series...running Shaq out of LA (classy move), the Phoenix debacle, Kobeand the Lakets getting merked by the Celtics, crying about wanted to get traded if the FO didn't get him an elite FC and having the Lakers role players carry him in a game 7 Finals game where he shot terrible.

Other than that, GOAT material:rockon:

[scandisk_]

My point really? According to you Kobe is better, u back this up with ESPN quotes, saying he's the best in league 2001, blah blah blah... you then say Jordan is a media hype a creation......Kobe is GOD, cuz his play......yet ESPN calls Jordan GOAT and its because media hype:confusedshrug:

Make up u'r mind can't have it both ways...sad part is, u are knowledgeable and when not in tool mode, make some valid arguments, but for a guy claiming to have watched the Jordan era, u sure don't give Jordans on court play any credit...its weak era, short white dudes, can't play in todays league, crap over and over.....yet Kobe a less efficient/athletic version of MJ has had success in the league, even now past his prime....Kobe is the best of his generation, there is no dispute with this, but he's not, nor will he ever be better than Jordan

he's prolly a magic guy, got tired of the media milkin MJ to death so he rode kobe's schlong :lol

[KG215]

How are you the best player when you are a liabilityin the 4th quarter/most important part of the game???
First off, where does this come from? Did Kobe average more 4th quarter points during the 4th quarters of the playoffs during the 3-peat? What about in the Finals? I'm seriously asking. And just because a player's FT shooting makes him a "liability" in the 4th quarter, means he's not the best player? His impact on the game in the other three quarters don't count?


How are you the best player...when you have the greatest player of the generation playing first team defense full court, all while scoring 30PPG[QUOTE]
You call Kobe the best player of his generation like it's an indisputable fact. When, in all reality, it's highly debatable who's the best player of that generation between Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe.

Fact: during the Lakers 3-peat years, Shaq was the best player on the planet and better than Kobe. Kobe was really good in 2001 and 2002, but Shaq was the best player. That's indisputable. Only you and other deluded Kobe stans think otherwise.

[QUOTE=AlphaWolf24]How are you the best player whe the whole fanbase /GM/owner knows your injury prone/poor wor ethic and trades you?
And Shaq was still the best player on those Lakers 3-peat teams. Trading him after the fact (after they won three straight championships) doesn't mean he's wasn't the best player from 1999-2002. That's just a sorry excuse Kobe fanboys use to downplay Shaq's significance on those 3-peat teams.


that's not bieng the best playe overall...that's bieng the oher.
The other what? Shaq was better than Kobe during the 3-peat years. Again, you look at the stats, and look at his impact on those teams, and he was better than Kobe. That's not to say Kobe wasn't really good and wasn't close to Shaq from 2000-2002, but Shaq was the better player.

[Ne 1]

Don't get me wrong, obviously the Lakers don't win 3 in a row without Kobe, he was their second best player buy Shaq was the 1st option. Shaq was on top of his game in that era, Kobe was inching toward the elite but wasn't his peak yet...

No doubt, and I don't think anyone outside of obvious trolls would say otherwise. As great as Kobe was, it's revisionist history to suggest he was the first option during the 3peat. However, in 2001 and 2002, he had the load of a first option. I'd consider him a top 5 player in 2001 and 2002 regardless, and better than anyone not named Shaq in the 2001 and 2002 playoffs.

Kobe's production was on par with first options in the 2001 and 2002 championship seasons, so I don't think it's fair to just write those off and omit them as "second option rings". The Lakers didn't have a legit 3rd scorer, so despite Shaq scoring more than many other players in championship years, Kobe also scored more and did more than many other first options.

Another interesting point that isn't often examined...Kobe was generally "plan B" for scoring throughout the game. However in the 4th quarter, he often became "plan A" and sometimes, "plan AA" if Phil sat Shaq because of hack-a-Shaq. In the history of the game, how often were guys who were riding the coattails of other players asked to take over so consistently?


he had double teams thrown at him, made it easier for Kobe and the rest of the Lakers to succeed.

True, but Kobe's production was legit and the one benefit he had from playing with Shaq aside from winning was that he wasn't the primary focus of the defense, but this is the most important part, and anyone who watched those teams knows this....

Teams weren't playing off of Kobe to double Shaq, the double teams came from the other positions more often than not. Kobe was NOT just getting spoon fed open shots, if anything, he directly created for Shaq more with his penetration. Kobe's points didn't come easily, and he provided more than just scoring.


Not to mention clutch play and defense. What other perimeter players at the time were as good as Kobe in those areas back then?

[AlphaWolf24]

Yeah, let's ignore the fact that Kobe shot the Lakers away from the NBA title in 04, horrible series...running Shaq out of LA (classy move), the Phoenix debacle, Kobeand the Lakets getting merked by the Celtics, crying about wanted to get traded if the FO didn't get him an elite FC and having the Lakers role players carry him in a game 7 Finals game where he shot terrible.

Other than that, GOAT material:rockon:


Lets ignore the Fact that Kobe got them the #1 seed in the west....let's ignore the fact that Shaq missed 20+ games nearly every season he payed..let's ignore th fact tht Shaq has destroyed team chemistry and burne brdges at every team he's been on...wich is what like 5 - 6 teams now?...did Kobe run him out of O town?...PHX?...CLE?....MIA?....


let's ignore he fact that Shaq never even sniffed the same amount of dominant play without Kobe.


(opens pocket)

[KG215]

Lets ignore the Fact that Kobe got them the #1 seed in the west....let's ignore the fact that Shaq missed 20+ games nearly every season he payed..let's ignore th fact tht Shaq has destroyed team chemistry and burne brdges at every team he's been on...wich is what like 5 - 6 teams now?...did Kobe run him out of O town?...PHX?...CLE?....MIA?....
Shaq missed 8, 3, and 14 games during the Lakers 3-peat years. What he did after getting traded doesn't and shouldn't takeaway from what he did with the Lakers.



let's ignore he fact that Shaq never even sniffed the same amount of dominant play without Kobe.
Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that Shaq was 32 years old when he was traded to Miami and his age caught up to him. He wasn't as dominant in Miami, but he was still very good. By the time he got traded to Phoenix in the '07-'08 season he was 35. But you're right, it has nothing to do with him getting older, it's all because he wasn't playing with Kobe anymore.

[Ne 1]

How are you the best player when you are a liability in the 4th quarter.

He wasn't a liability.


However he wasn't doing as much offensively in the 4th quarters in the 2002 run over two series, partly because Shaq was going through some nagging injuries at the time. (Kobe averaged 9 points in the 4th on 62% while Shaq averaged something like 4.5 points on 25% during the 4th quarters of the playoffs in '02 against the Spurs, against the Kings in '02 Kobe averaged 8.6 ppg on 43%, 96% on FTs. Shaq averaged just 5.4 ppg on 31%, 68% FTs.) In the 2001 run, the 4th quarter numbers are kind of insignificant due to all of the blowouts, no idea what their numbers are for that run. But in 2000, Shaq had great 4th quarter numbers. He averaged an efficient 11.5 ppg in the 4th quarters in the 2000 finals, iirc and 9+ ppg on great efficiency in the 4th in the WCF vs Portland.

And I don’t think Shaq played poorly late in games in '02 because he was “choking”, he just wasn’t well conditioned enough to play tough, physical series that season. He had a bunch of nagging injuries (foot and index finger) he was dealing with and wasn't in great shape. You can see most of his shots came short.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE]First off, where does this come from? Did Kobe average more 4th quarter points during the 4th quarters of the playoffs during the 3-peat? What about in the Finals? I'm seriously asking. And just because a player's FT shooting makes him a "liability" in the 4th quarter, means he's not the best player? His impact on the game in the other three quarters don't count?



RU seriously asking...did you not watch the Lakers in the early 2000's (serious question)..Kobe was clearly LA's 1rst option in he 4th quaters / crunchime ( same role Jordan played on the BULLS)...Shaq often was in foul trouble.... shot a horrible FT % so other teams could easily change momentum by fouling him ....or even if he mised a shot and was fouled LA would not score...








You call Kobe the best player of his generation like it's an indisputable fact. When, in all reality, it's highly debatable who's the best player of that generation between Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe.

all player comparison's are debatable


Fact: during the Lakers 3-peat years, Shaq was the best player on the planet and better than Kobe. Kobe was really good in 2001 and 2002, but Shaq was the best player. That's indisputable. Only you and other deluded Kobe stans think otherwise.

Fact: many people thought Kobe was the best allaround player in the league in 2001....ESPN thought so....so did Shaq himself

Fact: I do not work at ESPN

Fact: Just because ESPN says somthing..it's just an opinion of a popular srts media outlet....does not make it true

not a Fact: Just because some random on the interwebz "Totally" disregards the popular media outlet .(doesn't even conside)...does not mean they are basketball illiterate ( see what I did there)





And Shaq was still the best player on those Lakers 3-peat teams. Trading him after the fact (after they won three straight championships) doesn't mean he's wasn't the best player from 1999-2002. That's just a sorry excuse Kobe fanboys use to downplay Shaq's significance on those 3-peat teams.
uhh...yeah it does..:lol



The other what? Shaq was better than Kobe during the 3-peat years. Again, you look at the stats, and look at his impact on those teams, and he was better than Kobe. That's not to say Kobe wasn't really good and wasn't close to Shaq from 2000-2002, but Shaq was the better player.

looking at Kobe's whole rounded game.....then look at Shaq's.....

Kobe was a much better overall player...and much more Valuable ( especially in the playoff's wen you need an elite player who can create)....especially factoring in Kobe's top shelf defense.....often timesguarding the oposing teams best player ( Full Court!!)

3 straight Finals..replaced Shaq with a soft Euro.

[AlphaWolf24]

[QUOTE=KG215]Shaq missed 8, 3, and 14 games during the Lakers 3-peat years. What he did after getting traded doesn't and shouldn't takeaway from what he did with the Lakers.


missed 20 games in Orlando , Missed 30 games again ...came to LA and missed 20 games...missed 15 games in 02'...missed 15 games in 03'...missed 15 games in 04'...then dropped off dramatically again after leaving Kobe....

Shaq is Notorious for coasting or taking time off....oh well..at least he's Big.



Yeah, it has nothing to do with the fact that Shaq was 32 years old when he was traded to Miami and his age caught up to him. He wasn't as dominant in Miami, but he was still very good. By the time he got traded to Phoenix in the '07-'08 season he was 35. But you're right, it has nothing to do with him getting older, it's all because he wasn't playing with Kobe anymore

- he actually dropped over 25 lbs when he was traded to Miami...he was in the best shape of his career ( outside his first few seasons)..

- He was only 32 and in prime shape....only a few years removed from stll bieng a great player.....

[General]

Kobe 56 points in 34 minutes in a game where Shaq didn't play. But I thought the only reason Kobe was so good was because Shaq drew double teams and Kobe was wide open all the time:confusedshrug:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c421DmlFlFA

[KG215]

I don't have time to go into all of that right now but, man...AlphaWolf you really are one deluded Kobe stan aren't you? You honestly and truly believe that not only was Kobe better and more important to the Lakers during the 3-peat years, but you think Kobe is better than Jordan and I'm guessing the best player of all-time. It's ok to be a fan of a player, but you go beyond that, and it really is pathetic.

I think I've made it clear, I don't think Kobe was a scrub with Shaq. He was really, REALLY good. But it's another thing to think he meant more and was more significant than Shaq on those championship teams.

[AlphaWolf24]

I don't have time to go into all of that right now but, man...AlphaWolf you really are one deluded Kobe stan aren't you? You honestly and truly believe that not only was Kobe better and more important to the Lakers during the 3-peat years, but you think Kobe is better than Jordan and I'm guessing the best player of all-time. It's ok to be a fan of a player, but you go beyond that, and it really is pathetic.

I think I've made it clear, I don't think Kobe was a scrub with Shaq. He was really, REALLY good. But it's another thing to think he meant more and was more significant than Shaq on those championship teams.


well( This is also responding to Calabis)..

- I have alsways said....I can only judge players I watched live (whole careers)..

- I have said numerous times that Jordan was the best allaround player I seen ....( judging from early 80's - now)...but Kobe is also right up there with him...( slight things prolly puts MJ ahead of Kobe .....MJ's ability to finsih in Traffic was much better)....and certain aspects Kobe does better also.....but bieng able to finish with a defender bodied up is really valuable...and MJ had that like no one ever.


and also I would take Magic or Bird over anyone ever ( if starting a team)

but as an overall player...MJ and Kobe...not even close.

- the silly part ( fun part) is when idiotic stans throw temper tantrums and act like you can't even discuss Kobe ( anyone for that matter) against Jordan....I watched basketball all throught staring in the early 80's.....and you have younger fans ( who never even saw Jordan pay outside youtub highights) telling everyone " no one can compare)...:lol

- I have also said some years of the 90's were weaker in competition..especially compared to the 80's and mid late 00's...

(not just me but many basketball experts...there were no Pistons, Celtics , 76'ers ,Lakers team in the early mid 90's..like in the 80's )

- you can think what you want.....I know what really happened..itwas really a debate as wh was more important...Kobe or Shaq?....and looking at who was Voted as Player of the generation ( by a huge margin ...not even close!)..I know I'm right.



sorry.

[TheMan]

Lets ignore the Fact that Kobe got them the #1 seed in the west....let's ignore the fact that Shaq missed 20+ games nearly every season he payed..let's ignore th fact tht Shaq has destroyed team chemistry and burne brdges at every team he's been on...wich is what like 5 - 6 teams now?...did Kobe run him out of O town?...PHX?...CLE?....MIA?....


let's ignore he fact that Shaq never even sniffed the same amount of dominant play without Kobe.


(opens pocket)
Did you sleep through the 90s? You know he led the Magic to the Finals, right?:facepalm




Shaq was a beast in the 90s, he hit his prime with the Lakers, he was traded at 32, was on the decline because of age and poor work ethic (no reason to crap on what he did in LA), only Kobe stans like you would even try to claim that Kobe made Shaq dominant.:facepalm

the fvck outta here son

[TheMan]

My point really? According to you Kobe is better, u back this up with ESPN quotes, saying he's the best in league 2001, blah blah blah... you then say Jordan is a media hype a creation......Kobe is GOD, cuz his play......yet ESPN calls Jordan GOAT and its because media hype:confusedshrug:

That's AlphaPup24 in a nutshell, he will cite ESPN when they laud Kobe and he turns arund and claims media hype whenever ESPN claims MJ as the GOAT (which they have).:facepalm

puts in pocket

[AlphaWolf24]

Did you sleep through the 90s? You know he led the Magic to the Finals, right?:facepalm




Shaq was a beast in the 90s, he hit his prime with the Lakers, he was traded at 32, was on the decline because of age and poor work ethic (no reason to crap on what he did in LA), only Kobe stans like you would even try to claim that Kobe made Shaq dominant.:facepalm

the fvck outta here son


The Magic had a stacked team...and got Merked in the Finals...was that Kobe's fault too?

I said Kobe's skillset is more important in the Playoff's...ability to creat any shot....break down a defender and get inside / collapse the defense..this helped Shaq Dominate in the playoff's like he never has before..

of Course Shaq was big/strong enough to get his...but playoff sucess?...not even close..he played on 8 50+ win teams without Kobe...never looked as dominate....young or old

I slept in the 90's...ok where have you been the past 5 years....Kobe putting up 27 - 32PPG 6reb 6ast championship runs....nearly the same level as he did with Shaq....

anybody saying anything about Kobe needing Shaq:lol ***** please

next

[Hands of Iron]

Did you sleep through the 90s? You know he led the Magic to the Finals, right?:facepalm




Shaq was a beast in the 90s, he hit his prime with the Lakers, he was traded at 32, was on the decline because of age and poor work ethic (no reason to crap on what he did in LA), only Kobe stans like you would even try to claim that Kobe made Shaq dominant.:facepalm

the fvck outta here son

:oldlol:

So easy to create those type of asinine arguments when Shaq spent Age 24-31 with the Los Angeles Lakers. Yes, Kobe was the best player throughout the 3-peat.

2000 Playoffs:
Kobe: 21/5/4 44% FG, 52% TS
Shaq: 31/15/3 57% FG, 56% TS

2000 Finals:
Kobe: 16/5/4 37% FG, 41% TS
Shaq: 38/17/3 61% FG, 58% TS

2001 Playoffs:
Kobe: 29/7/6 47% FG, 55% TS
Shaq: 30/15/3 56% FG, 56% TS

2001 Finals:
Kobe: 25/8/6 42% FG, 50% TS
Shaq: 33/16/5 57% FG, 58% TS

2002 Playoffs:
Kobe: 27/6/5 43% FG, 51% TS
Shaq: 29/13/3 53% FG, 57% TS

2002 Finals:
Kobe: 27/6/5 51% FG, 62% TS
Shaq: 36/12/3 60% FG, 64% TS

Elimination Games:

'00 WCQF, Game 5:
Kobe: 17 pts, 2 reb, 6 ast, 44% FG, 50% TS
Shaq: 32 pts, 18 reb, 4 ast, 63% FG, 59% TS

'00 WCF, Game 7:
Kobe: 25 pts, 11 reb, 7 ast, 47% FG, 52% TS
Shaq: 18 pts, 9 reb, 5 ast, 56% FG, 63% TS

'02 WCF, Game 6:
Kobe: 31 pts, 11 reb, 5 ast, 50% FG, 62% TS
Shaq: 41 pts, 17 reb, 2 blk, 56% FG, 63% TS

'02 WCF, Game 7:
Kobe: 30 pts, 10 reb, 7 ast, 39% FG, 49% TS
Shaq: 35 pts, 13 reb, 4 blk, 48% FG, 55% TS

[AlphaWolf24]

:oldlol:

So easy to create those type of asinine arguments when Shaq spent Age 24-31 with the Los Angeles Lakers. Yes, Kobe was the best player throughout the 3-peat.

2000 Playoffs:
Kobe: 21/5/4 44% FG, 52% TS
Shaq: 31/15/3 57% FG, 56% TS

2000 Finals:
Kobe: 16/5/4 37% FG, 41% TS
Shaq: 38/17/3 61% FG, 58% TS

2001 Playoffs:
Kobe: 29/7/6 47% FG, 55% TS
Shaq: 30/15/3 56% FG, 56% TS

2001 Finals:
Kobe: 25/8/6 42% FG, 50% TS
Shaq: 33/16/5 57% FG, 58% TS

2002 Playoffs:
Kobe: 27/6/5 43% FG, 51% TS
Shaq: 29/13/3 53% FG, 57% TS

2002 Finals:
Kobe: 27/6/5 51% FG, 62% TS
Shaq: 36/12/3 60% FG, 64% TS

Elimination Games:

'00 WCQF, Game 5:
Kobe: 17 pts, 2 reb, 6 ast, 44% FG, 50% TS
Shaq: 32 pts, 18 reb, 4 ast, 63% FG, 59% TS

'00 WCF, Game 7:
Kobe: 25 pts, 11 reb, 7 ast, 47% FG, 52% TS
Shaq: 18 pts, 9 reb, 5 ast, 56% FG, 63% TS

'02 WCF, Game 6:
Kobe: 31 pts, 11 reb, 5 ast, 50% FG, 62% TS
Shaq: 41 pts, 17 reb, 2 blk, 56% FG, 63% TS

'02 WCF, Game 7:
Kobe: 30 pts, 10 reb, 7 ast, 39% FG, 49% TS
Shaq: 35 pts, 13 reb, 4 blk, 48% FG, 55% TS


did you even watch the games??

2001 Playoffs:
Kobe: 29/7/6 47% FG, 55% TS
Shaq: 30/15/3 56% FG, 56% TS


:confusedshrug: Kobe in the WCFinals s the Spurs 33PPG 7reb 7AST

what xactly are expecing?...Kobe was arguably the best player..especially if youwatched the games when Kobe was the clear cut closer...9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters.

Marginal stats means what?...

[Hands of Iron]

did you even watch the games??

2001 Playoffs:
Kobe: 29/7/6 47% FG, 55% TS
Shaq: 30/15/3 56% FG, 56% TS


:confusedshrug: Kobe in the WCFinals s the Spurs 33PPG 7reb 7AST

what xactly are expecing?...Kobe was arguably the best player..especially if youwatched the games when Kobe was the clear cut closer...9.2 ppg on 64% shooting in fourth quarters.

Marginal stats means what?...

He was arguably the best player in give or take, a series or two.

[TheMan]

and also I would take Magic or Bird over anyone ever ( if starting a team)

but as an overall player...MJ and Kobe...not even close.


- I have also said some years of the 90's were weaker in competition..especially compared to the 80's and mid late 00's...

(not just me but many basketball experts...there were no Pistons, Celtics , 76'ers ,Lakers team in the early mid 90's..like in the 80's )


Weak argument, tell me what teams in the 2000s are as good as those legendary 80s teams (which a lot of NBA experts have as some of the greatest all time teams).

More precisely, the Lakers in their threepeat never beat a team that you can compare with those 80s teams. The Pacers? :roll: AI 76ers?:roll: Nets? Kings? Blazers not on par with those teams.

In that regard, the Lakers feasted on weak teams compared to those 80s powerhouses. If you gonna denigrate the Bulls titles by saying they didn't beat any team on par with those teams, well the 2000 Lakers didn't either.

You can only beat who's available. That's like saying the St. Louis Cardinals WS is weak because they didn't beat a team on par with the '26 Yankees or the NY Giants SuperBowl is crap because they didn't beat a team on par with the 70s Steelers.:facepalm

[AlphaWolf24]

He was arguably the best player in give or take, a series or two.


the whole season...when he merked Vince in Air Canada...then dropped 41 in Philly on AI's 6er's...it was more and more clear that Kobe was the premiere player in the league...

I have posted countless times when Kobe would dominte throught th season....many said it was Shaq's team no longer

I think after the Spurs series ( many thought the Championship against the sixers was just the cherry on top....the WCFinals was the only real test)...just reinforced the process

[juju151111]

My point really? According to you Kobe is better, u back this up with ESPN quotes, saying he's the best in league 2001, blah blah blah... you then say Jordan is a media hype a creation......Kobe is GOD, cuz his play......yet ESPN calls Jordan GOAT and its because media hype:confusedshrug:

Make up u'r mind can't have it both ways...sad part is, u are knowledgeable and when not in tool mode, make some valid arguments, but for a guy claiming to have watched the Jordan era, u sure don't give Jordans on court play any credit...its weak era, short white dudes, can't play in todays league, crap over and over.....yet Kobe a less efficient/athletic version of MJ has had success in the league, even now past his prime....Kobe is the best of his generation, there is no dispute with this, but he's not, nor will he ever be better than Jordan
Hey once again. What's Shaq and Kobes 4 Q #s during 3peat

[AlphaWolf24]

Weak argument, tell me what teams in the 2000s are as good as those legendary 80s teams (which a lot of NBA experts have as some of the greatest all time teams).

More precisely, the Lakers in their threepeat never beat a team that you can compare with those 80s teams. The Pacers? :roll: AI 76ers?:roll: Nets? Kings? Blazers not on par with those teams.

In that regard, the Lakers feasted on weak teams compared to those 80s powerhouses. If you gonna denigrate the Bulls titles by saying they didn't beat any team on par with those teams, well the 2000 Lakers didn't either.

You can only beat who's available. That's like saying the St. Louis Cardinals WS is weak because they didn't beat a team on par with the '26 Yankees or the NY Giants SuperBowl is crap because they didn't beat a team on par with the 70s Steelers.:facepalm


Spurs would hold there own vs any of the 80's teams....3 peat Lakers were a Dynasty and good as any Piston, Boston team...Celtics in 08' were a great team...any of those teams were better then any team the Bull's faced

[AlphaWolf24]

Hey once again. What's Shaq and Kobes 4 Q #s during 3peat


already posted...use the search function

[Hands of Iron]

the whole season...when he merked Vince in Air Canada...then dropped 41 in Philly on AI's 6er's...it was more and more clear that Kobe was the premiere player in the league...

I have posted countless times when Kobe would dominte throught th season....many said it was Shaq's team no longer

I think after the Spurs series ( many thought the Championship against the sixers was just the cherry on top....the WCFinals was the only real test)...just reinforced the process
OK Alpha. :lol

Shaq was the better player throughout the Playoffs, in the Finals and in elimination games over the course of the three-peat. Those numbers arent marginal or unfair. There wasnt a Run, Finals or Elimination Game in which Kobe even had a higher TS% despite being the superior FT shooter and having more range. That's how dominant and efficient a scorer Shaq was from the field. That isn't to say Kobe didnt get any shine but a series here or there is something even Scottie could claim, and Kobe is a lot better than Scottie. Shaq was also a Top 2-3 defensive C in the league over this period.

[TheMan]

Spurs would hold there own vs any of the 80's teams....3 peat Lakers were a Dynasty and good as any Piston, Boston team...Celtics in 08' were a great team...any of those teams were better then any team the Bull's faced
Yeah, my point exactly, the threepeat Lakers could hang with those teams but I still would take the 86 Celtics, 87 Lakers, 83 Sixers or 89 Pistons because they were deeper and had FCs that could at least keep Shaq from going off big time. Once you get past Shaq and Kobe, the rest of the Lakers were inferior to those teams.

Again, threepeat Lakers feasted on weak competition compared to 80s competition.

[Hands of Iron]

80s defense was pretty lax. I think Kobe would actually thrive in the more 1v1 style of play, particularly if those teams played Shaq in the same manner the Blazers did. Kobe's improvement from 2000 to 2001 can't be understated in its own right. He didnt go off in that series in the way he likely wouldve the years immediately following.

[TheMan]

Spurs would hold there own vs any of the 80's teams....3 peat Lakers were a Dynasty and good as any Piston, Boston team...Celtics in 08' were a great team...any of those teams were better then any team the Bull's faced
True dat, they clowned Kobe and co. and had that memorable 40 pt rout.

[senelcoolidge]

We know that kobe will go down as a poor man's Jordan. Kobe is a future HoFer. He had a great career. He's not even the greatest laker ever..top 5 at least in that organization.

[juju151111]

already posted...use the search function
He posted 2 series from 02 playoffs. You claim throughout the whole 3 peat Kobe was better in the 4th. I highly doubt that in 00 n 01. Gimme all the numbers I didn't say cherry pick

[AlphaWolf24]

OK Alpha. :lol

Shaq was the better player throughout the Playoffs, in the Finals and in elimination games over the course of the three-peat. Those numbers arent marginal or unfair. There wasnt a Run, Finals or Elimination Game in which Kobe even had a higher TS% despite being the superior FT shooter and having more range. That's how dominant and efficient a scorer Shaq was from the field. That isn't to say Kobe didnt get any shine but a series here or there is something even Scottie could claim, and Kobe is a lot better than Scottie. Shaq was also a Top 2-3 defensive C in the league over this period.


th strongest center in the NBA is always going to shoot a higher FG%...why is that such a shocker?

2 diffent players in completley different roles...shaq was amuch more dominant post player 3' from the hoop...Kobe was a much more Dominate stetched out offensive player in much more dynamic role..

01' - 02 are marginal differences..especially factoring in Kobe's role on the team...you use marginal stats yet disregard Kobe's all word defense and ability to close games.

it's silly and sad...did you even watch the Lakers during he first 3 peat?..serious question...sounds like you just look at box scores

[Hands of Iron]

th strongest center in the NBA is always going to shoot a higher FG%...why is that such a shocker?

2 diffent players in completley different roles...shaq was amuch more dominant post player 3' from the hoop...Kobe was a much more Dominate stetched out offensive player in much more dynamic role..

01' - 02 are marginal differences..especially factoring in Kobe's role on the team...you use marginal stats yet disregard Kobe's all word defense and ability to close games.

it's silly and sad...did you even watch the Lakers during he first 3 peat?..serious question...sounds like you just look at box scores

Yeah, he was the most dominant peak player I've ever seen. It's irrelevant that he was the biggest or strongest...The game, impact, successful possessions don't account for that. You're viewing it from a pound-for-pound perspective and not raw impact and efficiency. You think it's a coincidence most of the consensus Top 10 consists of Bigs? Kobe's perimeter D was excellent, Shaq was also amongst the Top 3 Defensive C's in the NBA over the three-peat.

[AlphaWolf24]

Yeah, he was the most dominant peak player I've ever seen. It's irrelevant that he was the biggest or strongest...The game, impact, successful possessions don't account for that. You're viewing it from a pound-for-pound perspective and not raw impact and efficiency. You think it's a coincidence most of the consensus Top 10 consists of Bigs? Kobe's perimeter D was excellent, Shaq was also amongst the Top 3 Defensive C's in the NBA over the three-peat.


coincedence?....a ball dominate/offensive star with the ability to play top shelf defense 6' 6" SG is viewed as the best ever...

Magic , Bird and Kobe are all viewed as greater alltime players then Shaq ...( much more dynamic players)

I would say since the mid 80's great perimeter players ( versatile player )are much more valuable then a great Big man...


- Looking at marginal difference in box scores yet disregarding everything else factoring in a basketball game is crazy.

[Hands of Iron]

coincedence?....a ball dominate/offensive star with the ability to play top shelf defense 6' 6" SG is viewed as the best ever

Magic , Bird and Kobe are all viewed as greater alltime players then Shaq ...( much more dynamic players)

I would say since the mid 80's great perimeter players ( versatile player )are much more valuable then a great Big man...


- Looking at marginal difference in box scores yet disregarding everything else factoring in a basketball game is crazy.

Kareem/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan/Olajuwon/Russell. Bird was a frontcourt player who had multiple years at the 4. Magic (a 6-9 freak athlete PG) and Jordan are pretty much the exception to the rule.

And yes, the league has seen to it.

The box scores only serve to refute your bullshit and provide validation to what everyone saw. Shaq was the the first option and the more dominant, efficient, consistent, impactful player (who elevated his game on the biggest stage whether it was Indiana with Kobe hurt and shooting 38% or A Top 5 Defense and DPOY) on both ends of the court, no less considering his defense was top level at that time and yeah, he's a Center. :lol

[DJ Leon Smith]

CAN YOU GUYS PLEASE SHOW SOME RESPECT FOR THE BEST DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF ALL TIME WHO NEVER ALLOWED HIS TEAM TO LOSE AFTER BEING UP 24 POINTS IN THE FIRST HALF AT HOME IN THE NBA FINALS.

JEFF PLEASE LOCK THIS THREAD IF YOU HAVE ANY SELF RESPECT.

Kobe, we all bow down to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPC8ojduiA

P.S. LOL.

[TheMan]

I'll just put it this way, if I'm a GM and you give me prime Kobe or prime Shaq to build a team around, I'm gonna go with the big man. It's easier to build around a great big than a great perimeter player and that's not a dis to Kobe.

Not a coincidence that Kobe didn't win a ring again until he got a great FC again...and not to mention, the Lakers went out and grabbed the best big man today.

The Lakers know you win with great bigs, Mikan, Wilt, KAJ, Shaq and now Howard. They are always looking for the best big man.

next

[swi7ch]

Only reason why Kobe has more points etc. than Michaeil is because:

1) he went to the NBA directly (thus younger and more years in the nba)
2) MJ retired for 2 years

[Dragonyeuw]

Only reason why Kobe has more points etc. than Michaeil is because:

1) he went to the NBA directly (thus younger and more years in the nba)
2) MJ retired for 2 years

He doesn't have more points-yet. Odds are he will pass MJ in 2 years.

[AlphaWolf24]

Kareem/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan/Olajuwon/Russell. Bird was a frontcourt player who had multiple years at the 4. Magic (a 6-9 freak athlete PG) and Jordan are pretty much the exception to the rule.

And yes, the league has seen to it.

The box scores only serve to refute your bullshit and provide validation to what everyone saw. Shaq was the the first option and the more dominant, efficient, consistent, impactful player (who elevated his game on the biggest stage whether it was Indiana with Kobe hurt and shooting 38% or A Top 5 Defense and DPOY) on both ends of the court, no less considering his defense was top level at that time and yeah, he's a Center. :lol


"Kareem/Wilt/Shaq/Duncan/Olajuwon/Russell. " ...ok I know you never watched at least 3 of the 4 players....Jordan , Kobe , Magic and Bird...you said Bird played the 4..ok he also played a early version of a point Forward....point bieng all those players are not 7' centers who only dominate 3' from the hoop...they all played a dynamic game capable of bieng a threat everywhere on the court...never just a low post Center....all are considered better then Shaq



box scores refute what...marginal stats:lol ...

"everyone saw".....saw what?..Kobe could be just as Great with or without Shaq....I already explained in a previous post....LA's mindset during the 2001 season...I already showed you the biggest sports media outlet in the world calling the best player at 22 years old ( shaq also said this)...

Kobe was far and away the best player #1 in Game 7 ( the most iconic moment of the Kobe / Shaq era)..the best player against the 2 nd greatest team of the decade ( spurs)...and put up Championship runs in 01' and 02' that were just as impressive as Shaq's...overall run ...especially when you factor Kobe carrying the Lakers during the most important part of the game.

the only BS bieng thrown here is....Shaq was clearly the best player during the Lakers first 3peat...when it's crystal that since 2001 it's been up for debate who was more Valuable.


trying to rewrite history by copying and pastying box scores is silly...and frankly kind of sad.

[KG215]

th strongest center in the NBA is always going to shoot a higher FG%...why is that such a shocker?

2 diffent players in completley different roles...shaq was amuch more dominant post player 3' from the hoop...Kobe was a much more Dominate stetched out offensive player in much more dynamic role..
So, because of his size, we should just ignore his impact and say that, sine Kobe was doing his thing further from the basket, he was more impactful and the better player during the 3-peat?


01' - 02 are marginal differences..especially factoring in Kobe's role on the team...you use marginal stats yet disregard Kobe's all word defense and ability to close games.
And, during the 3-peat, Shaq had a huge defensive impact as well. Like Hands of Iron said, he one of the 2-3 best defensive centers in the league. He never won DPOY, but that's not a knock because Alonzo Mourning won it in 2000, Dikembe in 2001, and Ben Wallace started his DPOY barrage winning it in 2002. Kobe was a phenomenal defensive player during those years. At his best in my opinion, and I also felt for a couple of those years he was a good defensively as almost any other guard in NBA history.

However, there's a reason the DPOY award is dominated by big men. They just have a more significant defensive impact on the game. Having a rim-protecting 7-foot safety on the backside of a defense is invaluable. I can't remember who posted it and what thread it was in, but Phil Jackson said the Lakers defensive strategy was to funnel players baseline and into the lane towards Shaq.

Don't get me wrong, having a lockdown perimeter defender is great. When you can have someone like Kobe, Jordan, Moncrief, Payton, Pippen, Rodman, etc. to put on an elite perimeter scorer, and they're making them work their ass off to get off a good shot, it's great. But a good to great defensive big man is not only limiting his own man, but he's cleaning up the mistakes his teammates make by blocking or altering shots when someone else's man gets in the lane.



it's silly and sad...did you even watch the Lakers during he first 3 peat?..serious question...sounds like you just look at box scores
The boxscores never tell the whole story but in this case they really do tell a whole lot. There's a reason many consider 1999-2002 Shaq the most dominant player ever. Not only are the numbers just overwhelming, but his play on the court (and I and Hands of Iron watched the games too) was a sight to behold. You know how a lot of people kinda felt there was just no way the Bulls during their second 3-peat were going to lose as long as Jordan was healthy and on the floor? Well, I think that's how a lot of people felt about the 2000-2002 Lakers as long as Shaq was healthy and on the floor. Kobe played a significant role in the 2001 and 2002 playoff runs and the Lakers wouldn't have won without him. However, you just knew that, with Shaq anchoring the middle, it would take a monumental effort from the Lakers opponents to beat them in a best-of-seven series.

You seem to have yourself convinced that Kobe was more valuable to those championship teams. And you're discrediting Shaq for trivial things that happened after he left the Lakers and got older. None of that matters or pertains to what happened from 1999-2002. During that three year stretch Shaq was arguably better than any other player in NBA history was at their peak. Just because he got lazier, seemed less motivated, and struggled to stay healthy and didn't dominate to the same extent from 2004 and on doesn't take away from what he did during those three seasons.

[TheMan]

So, because of his size, we should just ignore his impact and say that, sine Kobe was doing his thing further from the basket, he was more impactful and the better player during the 3-peat?


And, during the 3-peat, Shaq had a huge defensive impact as well. Like Hands of Iron said, he one of the 2-3 best defensive centers in the league. He never won DPOY, but that's not a knock because Alonzo Mourning won it in 2000, Dikembe in 2001, and Ben Wallace started his DPOY barrage winning it in 2002. Kobe was a phenomenal defensive player during those years. At his best in my opinion, and I also felt for a couple of those years he was a good defensively as almost any other guard in NBA history.

However, there's a reason the DPOY award is dominated by big men. They just have a more significant defensive impact on the game. Having a rim-protecting 7-foot safety on the backside of a defense is invaluable. I can't remember who posted it and what thread it was in, but Phil Jackson said the Lakers defensive strategy was to funnel players baseline and into the lane towards Shaq.

Don't get me wrong, having a lockdown perimeter defender is great. When you can have someone like Kobe, Jordan, Moncrief, Payton, Pippen, Rodman, etc. to put on an elite perimeter scorer, and they're making them work their ass off to get off a good shot, it's great. But a good to great defensive big man is not only limiting his own man, but he's cleaning up the mistakes his teammates make by blocking or altering shots when someone else's man gets in the lane.



The boxscores never tell the whole story but in this case they really do tell a whole lot. There's a reason many consider 1999-2002 Shaq the most dominant player ever. Not only are the numbers just overwhelming, but his play on the court (and I and Hands of Iron watched the games too) was a sight to behold. You know how a lot of people kinda felt there was just no way the Bulls during their second 3-peat were going to lose as long as Jordan was healthy and on the floor? Well, I think that's how a lot of people felt about the 2000-2002 Lakers as long as Shaq was healthy and on the floor. Kobe played a significant role in the 2001 and 2002 playoff runs and the Lakers wouldn't have won without him. However, you just knew that, with Shaq anchoring the middle, it would take a monumental effort from the Lakers opponents to beat them in a best-of-seven series.

You seem to have yourself convinced that Kobe was more valuable to those championship teams. And you're discrediting Shaq for trivial things that happened after he left the Lakers and got older. None of that matters or pertains to what happened from 1999-2002. During that three year stretch Shaq was arguably better than any other player in NBA history was at their peak. Just because he got lazier, seemed less motivated, and struggled to stay healthy and didn't dominate to the same extent from 2004 and on doesn't take away from what he did during those three seasons.

Great post

[Hands of Iron]

So, because of his size, we should just ignore his impact and say that, sine Kobe was doing his thing further from the basket, he was more impactful and the better player during the 3-peat?


And, during the 3-peat, Shaq had a huge defensive impact as well. Like Hands of Iron said, he one of the 2-3 best defensive centers in the league. He never won DPOY, but that's not a knock because Alonzo Mourning won it in 2000, Dikembe in 2001, and Ben Wallace started his DPOY barrage winning it in 2002. Kobe was a phenomenal defensive player during those years. At his best in my opinion, and I also felt for a couple of those years he was a good defensively as almost any other guard in NBA history.

However, there's a reason the DPOY award is dominated by big men. They just have a more significant defensive impact on the game. Having a rim-protecting 7-foot safety on the backside of a defense is invaluable. I can't remember who posted it and what thread it was in, but Phil Jackson said the Lakers defensive strategy was to funnel players baseline and into the lane towards Shaq.

Don't get me wrong, having a lockdown perimeter defender is great. When you can have someone like Kobe, Jordan, Moncrief, Payton, Pippen, Rodman, etc. to put on an elite perimeter scorer, and they're making them work their ass off to get off a good shot, it's great. But a good to great defensive big man is not only limiting his own man, but he's cleaning up the mistakes his teammates make by blocking or altering shots when someone else's man gets in the lane.



The boxscores never tell the whole story but in this case they really do tell a whole lot. There's a reason many consider 1999-2002 Shaq the most dominant player ever. Not only are the numbers just overwhelming, but his play on the court (and I and Hands of Iron watched the games too) was a sight to behold. You know how a lot of people kinda felt there was just no way the Bulls during their second 3-peat were going to lose as long as Jordan was healthy and on the floor? Well, I think that's how a lot of people felt about the 2000-2002 Lakers as long as Shaq was healthy and on the floor. Kobe played a significant role in the 2001 and 2002 playoff runs and the Lakers wouldn't have won without him. However, you just knew that, with Shaq anchoring the middle, it would take a monumental effort from the Lakers opponents to beat them in a best-of-seven series.

You seem to have yourself convinced that Kobe was more valuable to those championship teams. And you're discrediting Shaq for trivial things that happened after he left the Lakers and got older. None of that matters or pertains to what happened from 1999-2002. During that three year stretch Shaq was arguably better than any other player in NBA history was at their peak. Just because he got lazier, seemed less motivated, and struggled to stay healthy and didn't dominate to the same extent from 2004 and on doesn't take away from what he did during those three seasons.

Excellent post, but dude is beyond gone... or just does this shit for amusement which I could honestly see. It's hard to tell. :lol

[ThunderStruk022]

In any Kobe vs. Jordan thread the answer is ALWAYS Jordan. It's not debatable. There's nothing on the floor Kobe does better than Jordan other than shoot 3-pointers. Kobe is a top 10 player all-time, and his game is very similar to Jordan, but in terms of actual ability and impact, Jordan is on a different level.