When Has Dirk Played On Stacked Teams

[SilkkTheShocker]

03? and even though it was very flawed, the 04 team had some talent. But why do some people act like he has been playing with great talent his whole career? Since 2005, Jason Terry was the 2nd best player on the Mavericks. Good player and had a great playoffs in 2011. But that isn't your typical 2nd option. I mean he took a team to the NBA Finals that started Adrian Griffin and Diop :oldlol: They choked in 07, but was one of the least talented 65+ win teams ever. Dirk taking that average Mavs team to the Finals in 2011 and winning it all makes him no worse than a top 3 PF.

[LosBulls]

Thats true now that u think about it... Dirk is underrated.

[kentatm]

aside from 07 they have pretty much been picked to finish no better than 5th in the West and more often than not to miss the playoffs completely every year Dirk has been on the team.

[Mr Know It All]

Most people on ISH who criticize Dirk have a massive agenda, so even credible posters will claim he had very talented teams, even though that is far from the truth throughout most of his career. I've said before that I don't like blaming the race factor, but you have to think it has something to do with the attacks on him as a player.

Only Lebron has played with less talent in the last decade and consistently taken his teams to 50+ wins. Dirk is incredibly special, top 20 player no doubt and a top 10 franchise player of all time when you consider what he did for Dallas (an absolute joke before he came along).

[RaininTwos]

Dawg, dude has had good teams...stop it.

[Kblaze8855]

aside from 07 they have pretty much been picked to finish no better than 5th in the West and more often than not to miss the playoffs completely every year Dirk has been on the team.

Thats on the short list of most untrue things ive ever read here.

[Kblaze8855]

I mean...really. Its just shockingly untrue. The Mavs won 50 something games and upset the Jazz in what? 01? PEople picked them to miss the playoffs te next year when they were young and rising? I must have missed that. They won 60 games in 03 and barely lost to the Spurs....so people picked them to miss the playoffs in 04 with even more talent?

Am I the only one who remembers fans here(Mavs fans as well) saying losing no D often injured Nash but adding Dampier who played out of his mind in his contract year was gonna help?

Even if I am...and people predicted no playoffs in 05(...they didnt) after they won like 58 games people thought no playoffs the next year with the same team?

And after they won the west in 06...people said no playoffs in 07?

The only person I remember saying no playoffs for the Mavs in 07 was tat Fab whatever guy who loved Dirk and Don Nelson and downplayed how good that team could be before they played on like a 75 win pace after the first week.

They were picked to miss the playoffs after a 67 win season?

Really...be honest. How many Mavs teams could be expected to miss the playoffs? Maybe...maybe...09 and 10? And there is no way a widespread poll would conclude that. Here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141926&page=5


Season predictions. Not one person had the Mavs out of the playoffs and thats coming off the worst season they had since 2000.

The idea that the Mavs were ever supposed to be a lottery team is just flat out rewriting history.

Someone somewhere may have said it. someone somewhere says everything.

But acting like it was some widespread idea...and they were more often than not predicted to miss the playoffs when they have been considered at least a darkhorse contender for 13 years in a row?

Thats revisionist history on a level im not sure ive ever seen.

The mavs have been expected to be good at LEAST...11 of the last 13 years. And the 2 arguable ones you wont find a majority saying they wouldnt make the playoffs.

You pulled that out of the deepest most vile recesses of your ass and its so untrue I dont wanna believe you were serious...

[Harison]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kblaze8855 again." Will rep sometime later http://www.defence.pk/forums/images/smilies/cute/tup.gif

Dirk was blessed playing for the great owner, who did his best to surround Dirk with a fitting talent.

I personally was rejoicing when Dirk and Kidd won the rings, but honestly - put any all-time great PF in Dirk's shoes (Duncan, KG, Malone, Barkley, Pettit, etc), and we would probably see more championships in Dallas.

[Papaya Petee]

I mean...really. Its just shockingly untrue. The Mavs won 50 something games and upset the Jazz in what? 01? PEople picked them to miss the playoffs te next year when they were young and rising? I must have missed that. They won 60 games in 03 and barely lost to the Spurs....so people picked them to miss the playoffs in 04 with even more talent?

Am I the only one who remembers fans here(Mavs fans as well) saying losing no D often injured Nash but adding Dampier who played out of his mind in his contract year was gonna help?

Even if I am...and people predicted no playoffs in 05(...they didnt) after they won like 58 games people thought no playoffs the next year with the same team?

And after they won the west in 06...people said no playoffs in 07?

The only person I remember saying no playoffs for the Mavs in 07 was tat Fab whatever guy who loved Dirk and Don Nelson and downplayed how good that team could be before they played on like a 75 win pace after the first week.

They were picked to miss the playoffs after a 67 win season?

Really...be honest. How many Mavs teams could be expected to miss the playoffs? Maybe...maybe...09 and 10? And there is no way a widespread poll would conclude that. Here:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=141926&page=5


Season predictions. Not one person had the Mavs out of the playoffs and thats coming off the worst season they had since 2000.

The idea that the Mavs were ever supposed to be a lottery team is just flat out rewriting history.

Someone somewhere may have said it. someone somewhere says everything.

But acting like it was some widespread idea...and they were more often than not predicted to miss the playoffs when they have been considered at least a darkhorse contender for 13 years in a row?

Thats revisionist history on a level im not sure ive ever seen.

The mavs have been expected to be good at LEAST...11 of the last 13 years. And the 2 arguable ones you wont find a majority saying they wouldnt make the playoffs.

You pulled that out of the deepest most vile recesses of your ass and its so untrue I dont wanna believe you were serious...

While I agree with you to the most extent, I believe the OP is referring more to the talent of the teammates Dirk has been playing with rather then the team expectations tho.

And, he is correct, Dirk hasn't played with too talented players, average supporting cast, nothing great.

[kentatm]

Thats on the short list of most untrue things ive ever read here.


no it isnt

sorry but I read most everything about the Mavs and about half the time they have been the team picked to drop out of the playoffs to make way for a new young team out West.

and I even explicitly stated 07 was the year they were expected to be tops in the West.

and yea, they were picked by many to miss the playoffs after the year vs the Jazz. The WCFs year was thought of as a fluke by many b/c CWebb went down, they were not expected to go back. They were picked to collapse two years after the WCFs when Nash left. Then when Avery took over people thought he would have growing pains and f-ck it up.

I am sorry but you are just wrong.

[Kblaze8855]

That is nothing more than fans always acting hated on. Reminds me of a Magic fan this year saying the Magic were the most hated on team in the league.

The Mavs have been contending for a dozen years. You find me one person saying they will miss the playoffs ANY season ill show you 5 saying they wont. The idea that they have more often than not been picked to miss the playoffs is frankly...stupid. Stupid enough to cross the line into a word may never have used...trolling.

Its a totally indefensible position.

[TMT]

That 07 squad was stacked and dominant. The only team that could have (and did) take them out that year was Don Nelson... I mean the Warriors.

[kentatm]

it really isnt.

they are hardly ever pick to be top 4 and have been picked to miss the playoffs several times by many talking heads.

Im sorry but you are wrong.

[Kblaze8855]

Sure I am. But after their worst season of this century not a single person in a prediction topic here picked them to miss the playoffs. But it was a common opinion. Not just something someone somewhere said....

More often than not...they were picked to miss the playoffs. But even though ive been here for more than 10 years reading virtually everything...I missed it.

Sure.

[kentatm]

yep. you did. :hammerhead:

[Kblaze8855]

Show me. Common opinion. Cant be hard to find right? The internet is fairly easy to operate.

I can find many many many sources picking them to make it...every single season.

Show me your evidence. Please. Show me something that shows it wasnt just a fringe opinion. And im not even asking for 8 seasons of it which is what it would take for you to not have been talking out of your ass.

Show me...something.

[SilkkTheShocker]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Kblaze8855 again." Will rep sometime later http://www.defence.pk/forums/images/smilies/cute/tup.gif

Dirk was blessed playing for the great owner, who did his best to surround Dirk with a fitting talent.

I personally was rejoicing when Dirk and Kidd won the rings, but honestly - put any all-time great PF in Dirk's shoes (Duncan, KG, Malone, Barkley, Pettit, etc), and we would probably see more championships in Dallas.


replace Dirk with KG and the Mavs have no championships.

[RRR3]

Jason Terry has NOT been the Mavericks second best player every year since 2005. :facepalm Dirk has had some damn good teams, not taking anything away from his greatness, but don't act like he never had help, that's ridiculous. A look at Dirk's teams from his 3rd year on (to be fairer to Dirk I excluded his first two years)


2001 Mavericks (53-29), lost to Spurs in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 22/9/2/1/1 on 47/39/84
Michael Finley: 22/5/4/1/0 on 46/35/78
Steve Nash: 16/3/7/1/0 on 49/41/90
Juwan Howard (midseason pickup): 18/7/3/1/1 on 49/0/78

Playoffs
Dirk: 23/8/1/1/1 on 42/28/88
Finley: 20/5/4/1/0 on 36/36/82
Nash: 14/3/6/1/0 on 42/41/88
Ju. Howard: 13/8/1/1/1 on 36/-/80




2002 Mavericks (57-25), lost to Kings in 2nd round

Regular Season
Dirk: 23/10/2/1/1 on 48/40/85
Finley: 21/5/3/1/0 on 46/34/84
Nash: 18/3/8/1/0 on 48/46/89
Ju. Howard (traded midseason): 13/7/2/1/1 on 46/0/75
Nick Van Exel (acquired in Ju. Howard trade): 13/3/4/1/0 on 41/35/84
Raef LaFrentz (acquired in Ju. Howard trade): 11/7/1/1/2 on 44/31/76

Playoffs
Dirk: 28/13/2/2/1 on 45/57/88
Finley: 25/6/2/2/1 on 47/38/90
Nash: 20/4/9/1/0 on 43/44/97
LaFrentz: 11/8/1/0/3 on 50/33/55
Van Exel: 11/3/4/1/0 on 37/21/67



2003 Mavericks (60-22), lost to Spurs in WCF

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/10/3/1/1 on 46/38/88
Finley: 19/6/3/1/0 on 43/37/86
Nash: 18/3/7/1/0 on 47/41/91
Van Exel: 13/3/4/1/0 on 41/38/76

Playoffs
Dirk: 25/12/2/1/1 on 48/44/91
Van Exel: 20/3/4/1/0 on 46/39/70
Finley: 18/6/3/1/1 on 44/41/86
Nash: 16/4/7/1/0 on 45/49/87



2004 Mavericks (52-30), lost to Kings in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 22/9/3/1/1 on 46/34/88
Finley: 19/5/3/1/1 on 44/41/85
Antawn Jamison: 15/6/1/1/0 on 54/40/75
Nash: 15/3/9/1/0 on 47/41/92
Antoine Walker: 14/8/5/1/1 on 43/27/55
Josh Howard: 9/6/1/1/1 on 43/30/70
Marquis Daniels: 9/3/2/1/0 on 49/31/77

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/1/1/3 on 45/47/86
Daniels: 16/6/3/2/1 on 43/14/64
Nash: 14/5/9/1/0 on 39/38/89
Finley: 13/3/3/1/1 on 38/27/60
Jamison: 13/5/0/1/0 on 46/25/73
Walker: 10/10/2/1/1 on 36/10/57
Jo. Howard: 5/6/1/1/1 on 22/20/91



2005 Mavericks (58-24), lost to Suns in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 26/10/3/1/2 on 46/40/87
Finley: 16/4/3/1/0 on 43/41/83
Jerry Stackhouse: 15/3/2/1/0 on 41/27/85
Jo. Howard: 13/6/1/2/1 on 48/30/73
Jason Terry: 12/2/5/1/0 on 50/42/84
Kevin Van Horn (acquired midseason): 12/4/1/1/0 on 46/38/78
Erick Dampier: 9/9/1/0/1 on 55/0/61
Daniels: 9/4/2/1/0 on 44/20/74

Playoffs
Dirk: 24/10/3/1/2 on 40/33/83
Terry: 18/4/5/1/1 on 51/49/88
Stackhouse: 16/4/2/1/0 on 39/40/86
Jo. Howard: 16/7/2/1/1 on 50/25/75
Finley: 13/4/2/1/0 on 43/39/89
Dampier: 7/8/1/1/1 on 60/0/39
Daniels: 7/3/1/1/0 on 43/17/70
note: Van Horn played very little in playoffs



2006 Mavericks (60-22), lost to Heat in finals

Regular season
Dirk: 27/9/3/1/1 on 48/41/90
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 47/41/80
Jo. Howard: 16/6/2/1/0 on 47/43/73
Stackhouse: 13/3/3/1/0 on 40/28/88
Daniels: 10/4/3/1/0 on 48/21/75
Devin Harris: 10/2/3/1/0 on 47/24/72

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/3/1/1 on 47/34/90
Terry: 19/3/4/1/0 on 44/31/83
Jo. Howard: 17/7/1/1/1 on 45/37/81
Stackhouse: 14/3/3/1/0 on 40/34/78
Harris: 9/2/2/1/0 on 48/0/70



2007 Mavericks (67-15), lost to Warriors in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/9/3/1/1 on 50/42/90
Jo. Howard: 19/7/2/1/1 on 46/39/83
Terry: 17/3/5/1/0 on 48/44/80
Stackhouse: 12/2/3/1/0 on 43/38/85
Harris: 10/3/4/1/0 on 49/28/82

Playoffs
Jo. Howard: 21/10/3/2/1 on 52/39/70
Dirk: 20/11/2/2/1 on 38/21/84
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 42/28/83
Stackhouse: 14/4/3/1/0 on 35/36/88
Harris: 13/2/5/1/0 on 49/30/74



2008 Mavericks (51-31), lost to Hornets in 1st round

Regular season
Dirk: 24/9/4/1/1 on 48/36/88
Jo. Howard: 20/7/2/1/0 on 46/32/81
Terry: 16/3/3/1/0 on 47/38/86
Harris (traded midseason): 14/2/5/1/0 on 48/36/82
Stackhouse: 11/2/3/1/0 on 41/33/89
Jason Kidd (acquired for Harris): 10/7/10/2/0 on 43/46/82
Brandon Bass: 8/4/1/0/1 on 50/0/82

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/4/0/1 on 47/33/81
Terry: 16/2/5/0/0 on 43/44/87
Jo. Howard: 13/7/1/0/0 on 29/10/80
Bass: 12/7/0/1/1 on 47/0/96
Kidd: 9/6/7/1/0 on 42/46/63
Stackhouse: 6/3/1/0/0 on 32/17/100



2009 Mavericks (50-32) lost to Nuggets in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 26/8/2/1/1 on 48/36/89
Terry: 20/2/3/1/0 on 46/37/88
Jo. Howard: 18/5/2/1/1 on 45/35/78
Kidd: 9/6/9/2/1 on 42/41/82
Bass: 9/5/1/0/1 on 50/0/87
J.J. Barea: 8/2/3/1/0 on 44/36/75

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/10/3/1/1 on 52/29/93
Jo. Howard: 16/5/1/1/0 on 44/25/78
Terry: 14/3/2/1/0 on 39/37/77
Kidd: 11/6/6/2/0 on 46/45/85
Bass: 9/4/1/1/0 on 55/-/90
Barea: 8/2/3/0/0 on 44/31/69



2010 Mavericks (55-27), lost to Spurs in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/8/3/1/1 on 48/42/92
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 44/37/87
Jo. Howard (traded midseason): 13/4/1/1/0 on 40/27/79
Caron Butler (acquired in Jo. Howard trade): 15/5/2/2/0 on 44/34/76
Shawn Marion: 12/6/1/1/1 on 51/16/76
Kidd: 10/6/9/2/0 on 42/43/81
Drew Gooden (traded midseason): 9/7/1/1/1 on 47/17/81
Brendan Haywood (acquired in Jo. Howard trade): 8/7/1/0/2 on 56/0/58
Barea: 8/2/3/0/0 on 44/36/84

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/8/3/1/1 on 55/57/95
Butler: 20/6/1/2/1 on 43/30/93
Terry: 13/3/2/1/0 on 38/40/75
Marion: 9/4/1/0/1 on 41/0/80
Kidd: 8/7/7/2/0 on 30/32/92
Haywood: 6/6/1/1/2 on 57/-/60
Barea: 6/2/3/0/0 on 41/40/33



2011 Mavericks (57-25), won NBA finals over Heat

Regular season
Dirk: 23/7/3/1/1 on 52/39/89
Terry: 16/2/4/1/0 on 45/36/85
Butler (only 29 games due to injury): 15/4/2/1/0 on 45/43/77
Marion: 13/7/1/1/1 on 52/15/77
Tyson Chandler: 10/9/0/1/1 on 65/-/73
Barea: 10/2/4/0/0 on 44/35/85
Peja Stojakovic (acquired late in season): 9/3/1/0/0 on 43/40/94
Kidd: 8/4/8/2/0 on 36/34/87

Playoffs
Dirk: 28/8/3/1/1 on 49/46/94
Terry: 18/2/3/1/0 on 48/44/84
Marion: 12/6/2/1/1 on 47/0/85
Kidd: 9/5/7/2/1 on 40/37/80
Barea: 9/2/3/0/0 on 42/32/79
Chandler: 8/9/0/1/1 on 58/-/68
Stojakovic: 7/2/0/1/0 on 41/38/79



2012 Mavericks (36-30), lost to Thunder in 1st round

Regular season
Dirk: 22/7/2/1/1 on 46/37/90
Terry: 15/2/4/1/0 on 43/38/88
Marion: 11/7/2/1/1 on 45/29/80
Vince Carter: 10/3/2/1/0 on 41/36/83
Delonte West: 10/2/3/1/0 on 46/36/89
Rodrigue Beaubois: 9/3/3/1/1 on 42/29/84
Kidd: 6/4/6/2/0 on 36/35/79

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/6/2/1/0 on 44/17/91
Terry: 14/2/4/0/0 on 46/50/63
Marion: 12/8/1/0/1 on 43/29/90
Kidd: 12/6/6/3/0 on 34/35/90
Carter: 8/6/0/1/1 on 29/30/75
West: 8/2/2/1/0 on 42/50/100
Note: Beaubois barely played in playoffs








So...Dirk was part of a big 3 from 2001-04. In 2004, he was one of FIVE Mavericks to average 14+ PPG. He has played with Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Juwan Howard (yes, he was good once), Nick Van Exel, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler. I won't include Vince Carter or Keith Van Horn, they were done when Dirk played with 'em (not his fault either).



All the guys I mentioned (excluding Carter and Van Horn) have combined for:

37 All-Star Games between 13 different players.
8 All-NBA 1st teams between Nash and Kidd
3 All-NBA 2nd teams between Nash and Kidd
6 All-NBA 3rd teams between Nash, Marion, Chandler and Juwan Howard
2 NBA MVP awards by Steve Nash
4 All-Defensive 1st teams by Jason Kidd
7 All-Defensive 2nd teams between Kidd and Chandler
1 Defensive Player of the Year by Tyson Chandler
2 6th Man of the Year awards between Terry and Jamison
Finley (3 times), Jamison (once), Antoine Walker (once), Stackhouse (twice), Nash (8 times), Marion (twice), and Kidd (8 times) have received votes for MVP.


"Buh-buh-buh-buh dirk Never had help" :rolleyes:

[kentatm]

now I'm not going to spend a ton of time on this b/c I think its silly and b/c I'm lazy and most old season previews for online sports sites and newspapers will now be behind pay walls or are just plain gone.

but here is ESPNs 08/09

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dime-DallasPreview0809

there are two of ten saying they miss, and were mostly pegged at 8th.

I hope you dont think I meant EVERY pundit had them missing. I was implying that almost every year you can find several well known talking heads that have them dropping and they are almost always listed as a lower tier playoff team.

[Kblaze8855]

So...in their worst year 2 of 10 people on a site said they miss..80% say they make it......and you say:


more often than not to miss the playoffs completely every year Dirk has been on the team.



I...think that mocks itself enough for me to let it be.

[kentatm]

I already clarified that I didn't mean the entirety of the NBA media.

I just picked a random recent year b/c I thought it might still be up.

and if you are going to get all nit picky on me you said you could find 5 for every 1 and that ratio aint there in that preview brah.

again, I dont really care enough to argue over this.

I know what I have read and don't care to put in the effort to find it.

[Optimus Prime]

Kblaze laying out some truth.

Dirk has played on some excellent teams, and he has played on some mediocre teams. I can't remember anytime...really...within the last decade that the widespread opinion was that the Mavs would finish outside of the playoffs.

I'm not talking about a few random posters on ISH or a talking head for ESPN running their mouth...I'm talking about the overwhelming opinion that a Dirk-led Mavs team wasn't good and would miss the playoffs.

Come on, man.

:kobe:

[BlackWhiteGreen]

replace Dirk with KG and the Mavs have no championships.

Right, because KG can't be the "lead dog". Even though Barkley or Malone never won a championship. :rolleyes: Garnett won a championship when he was the best player on the team, and was one of the most consistent players on the team in the playoffs.

[TheMarkMadsen]

Steve Nash, Prime Michael Finely, Josh Howard (when he was goo) Antwan Jaminson (as the 6th man) Jason terry, Jerry stackhouse, Marquis Daniels (see josh howard) Devin Harris, Nick Van Exel, Jj barea, Antoine Walker..

All good/very good players. All of which Dirk had the opportunity to play wih durring their prime years, minus Stackhouse.

That's not to shabby.

[magnax1]

This is the first year I remember people consistently saying the Mavs would miss the playoffs, and even though it's a common opinion it's not one that I think makes a lot of sense considering the pieces they've added. There has never been a year where it was common opinion that the Mavs wouldn't make the playoffs since 01. It's just blatant bullshit.
Also, the only years he really didn't have contender quality teams during his prime were 08 and 09. Neither of those teams were truly bad either. Just not top tier contender quality like the Lakers, Celtics, Cavs etc. Almost every single year of his career he's been surrounded with lots and lots of offensive perimeter talent. Nash, Finley, Kidd, Terry, Howard, Stackhouse, Van Exel, Jamison, Marion, Butler, Walker, Harris etc. There isn't a year you can point to where he just didn't have firepower like a Kobe, TMac, Garnett, or Dwight. His teams pitfall almost every year has been that they just didn't have the defense. The one year they were able to overcome that, they still weren't a fantastic defense, but they were by far the best shooting team in the playoffs, and had an amazingly well run team on both ends of the floor.

[Kblaze8855]

I said I could find 5 to 1. At the moment....4 clicks into a google search...im at 17-2. 5 to 1 is an understatement if I actually count all i find. ISh would likely be more like 10 to 1 The Mavs were picked to make the playoffs by the EXTREME vast majority in the worst year they ever had once they became a playoff team.

You made an absurd statment due to an emotional tie to a team that makes you think people were out to get them. Fans who cant see past such things always make their team out tobe more disrespected than it is. Like these clipper fans calling them the most hated team when nobody day to day seems to care about them.

That "They said we couldnt do it!" shit should be reserved for teams people actually thought were bad. Not a team expected to contend no less than 5 of the last 12 years and picked for the playoffs by a huge majority in even the worst year they ever had and the year after it.

Dallas has been talented and expected to be good by most people...since 2001. Just the way it is.

[Kblaze8855]

This is the first year I remember people consistently saying the Mavs would miss the playoffs

Thats because you live in the real world .

[TheMarkMadsen]

Jason Terry has NOT been the Mavericks second best player every year since 2005. :facepalm Dirk has had some damn good teams, not taking anything away from his greatness, but don't act like he never had help, that's ridiculous. A look at Dirk's teams from his 3rd year on (to be fairer to Dirk I excluded his first two years)


2001 Mavericks (53-29), lost to Spurs in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 22/9/2/1/1 on 47/39/84
Michael Finley: 22/5/4/1/0 on 46/35/78
Steve Nash: 16/3/7/1/0 on 49/41/90
Juwan Howard (midseason pickup): 18/7/3/1/1 on 49/0/78

Playoffs
Dirk: 23/8/1/1/1 on 42/28/88
Finley: 20/5/4/1/0 on 36/36/82
Nash: 14/3/6/1/0 on 42/41/88
Ju. Howard: 13/8/1/1/1 on 36/-/80




2002 Mavericks (57-25), lost to Kings in 2nd round

Regular Season
Dirk: 23/10/2/1/1 on 48/40/85
Finley: 21/5/3/1/0 on 46/34/84
Nash: 18/3/8/1/0 on 48/46/89
Ju. Howard (traded midseason): 13/7/2/1/1 on 46/0/75
Nick Van Exel (acquired in Ju. Howard trade): 13/3/4/1/0 on 41/35/84
Raef LaFrentz (acquired in Ju. Howard trade): 11/7/1/1/2 on 44/31/76

Playoffs
Dirk: 28/13/2/2/1 on 45/57/88
Finley: 25/6/2/2/1 on 47/38/90
Nash: 20/4/9/1/0 on 43/44/97
LaFrentz: 11/8/1/0/3 on 50/33/55
Van Exel: 11/3/4/1/0 on 37/21/67



2003 Mavericks (60-22), lost to Spurs in WCF

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/10/3/1/1 on 46/38/88
Finley: 19/6/3/1/0 on 43/37/86
Nash: 18/3/7/1/0 on 47/41/91
Van Exel: 13/3/4/1/0 on 41/38/76

Playoffs
Dirk: 25/12/2/1/1 on 48/44/91
Van Exel: 20/3/4/1/0 on 46/39/70
Finley: 18/6/3/1/1 on 44/41/86
Nash: 16/4/7/1/0 on 45/49/87



2004 Mavericks (52-30), lost to Kings in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 22/9/3/1/1 on 46/34/88
Finley: 19/5/3/1/1 on 44/41/85
Antawn Jamison: 15/6/1/1/0 on 54/40/75
Nash: 15/3/9/1/0 on 47/41/92
Antoine Walker: 14/8/5/1/1 on 43/27/55
Josh Howard: 9/6/1/1/1 on 43/30/70
Marquis Daniels: 9/3/2/1/0 on 49/31/77

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/1/1/3 on 45/47/86
Daniels: 16/6/3/2/1 on 43/14/64
Nash: 14/5/9/1/0 on 39/38/89
Finley: 13/3/3/1/1 on 38/27/60
Jamison: 13/5/0/1/0 on 46/25/73
Walker: 10/10/2/1/1 on 36/10/57
Jo. Howard: 5/6/1/1/1 on 22/20/91



2005 Mavericks (58-24), lost to Suns in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 26/10/3/1/2 on 46/40/87
Finley: 16/4/3/1/0 on 43/41/83
Jerry Stackhouse: 15/3/2/1/0 on 41/27/85
Jo. Howard: 13/6/1/2/1 on 48/30/73
Jason Terry: 12/2/5/1/0 on 50/42/84
Kevin Van Horn (acquired midseason): 12/4/1/1/0 on 46/38/78
Erick Dampier: 9/9/1/0/1 on 55/0/61
Daniels: 9/4/2/1/0 on 44/20/74

Playoffs
Dirk: 24/10/3/1/2 on 40/33/83
Terry: 18/4/5/1/1 on 51/49/88
Stackhouse: 16/4/2/1/0 on 39/40/86
Jo. Howard: 16/7/2/1/1 on 50/25/75
Finley: 13/4/2/1/0 on 43/39/89
Dampier: 7/8/1/1/1 on 60/0/39
Daniels: 7/3/1/1/0 on 43/17/70
note: Van Horn played very little in playoffs



2006 Mavericks (60-22), lost to Heat in finals

Regular season
Dirk: 27/9/3/1/1 on 48/41/90
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 47/41/80
Jo. Howard: 16/6/2/1/0 on 47/43/73
Stackhouse: 13/3/3/1/0 on 40/28/88
Daniels: 10/4/3/1/0 on 48/21/75
Devin Harris: 10/2/3/1/0 on 47/24/72

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/3/1/1 on 47/34/90
Terry: 19/3/4/1/0 on 44/31/83
Jo. Howard: 17/7/1/1/1 on 45/37/81
Stackhouse: 14/3/3/1/0 on 40/34/78
Harris: 9/2/2/1/0 on 48/0/70



2007 Mavericks (67-15), lost to Warriors in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/9/3/1/1 on 50/42/90
Jo. Howard: 19/7/2/1/1 on 46/39/83
Terry: 17/3/5/1/0 on 48/44/80
Stackhouse: 12/2/3/1/0 on 43/38/85
Harris: 10/3/4/1/0 on 49/28/82

Playoffs
Jo. Howard: 21/10/3/2/1 on 52/39/70
Dirk: 20/11/2/2/1 on 38/21/84
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 42/28/83
Stackhouse: 14/4/3/1/0 on 35/36/88
Harris: 13/2/5/1/0 on 49/30/74



2008 Mavericks (51-31), lost to Hornets in 1st round

Regular season
Dirk: 24/9/4/1/1 on 48/36/88
Jo. Howard: 20/7/2/1/0 on 46/32/81
Terry: 16/3/3/1/0 on 47/38/86
Harris (traded midseason): 14/2/5/1/0 on 48/36/82
Stackhouse: 11/2/3/1/0 on 41/33/89
Jason Kidd (acquired for Harris): 10/7/10/2/0 on 43/46/82
Brandon Bass: 8/4/1/0/1 on 50/0/82

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/4/0/1 on 47/33/81
Terry: 16/2/5/0/0 on 43/44/87
Jo. Howard: 13/7/1/0/0 on 29/10/80
Bass: 12/7/0/1/1 on 47/0/96
Kidd: 9/6/7/1/0 on 42/46/63
Stackhouse: 6/3/1/0/0 on 32/17/100



2009 Mavericks (50-32) lost to Nuggets in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 26/8/2/1/1 on 48/36/89
Terry: 20/2/3/1/0 on 46/37/88
Jo. Howard: 18/5/2/1/1 on 45/35/78
Kidd: 9/6/9/2/1 on 42/41/82
Bass: 9/5/1/0/1 on 50/0/87
J.J. Barea: 8/2/3/1/0 on 44/36/75

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/10/3/1/1 on 52/29/93
Jo. Howard: 16/5/1/1/0 on 44/25/78
Terry: 14/3/2/1/0 on 39/37/77
Kidd: 11/6/6/2/0 on 46/45/85
Bass: 9/4/1/1/0 on 55/-/90
Barea: 8/2/3/0/0 on 44/31/69



2010 Mavericks (55-27), lost to Spurs in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/8/3/1/1 on 48/42/92
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 44/37/87
Jo. Howard (traded midseason): 13/4/1/1/0 on 40/27/79
Caron Butler (acquired in Jo. Howard trade): 15/5/2/2/0 on 44/34/76
Shawn Marion: 12/6/1/1/1 on 51/16/76
Kidd: 10/6/9/2/0 on 42/43/81
Drew Gooden (traded midseason): 9/7/1/1/1 on 47/17/81
Brendan Haywood (acquired in Jo. Howard trade): 8/7/1/0/2 on 56/0/58
Barea: 8/2/3/0/0 on 44/36/84

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/8/3/1/1 on 55/57/95
Butler: 20/6/1/2/1 on 43/30/93
Terry: 13/3/2/1/0 on 38/40/75
Marion: 9/4/1/0/1 on 41/0/80
Kidd: 8/7/7/2/0 on 30/32/92
Haywood: 6/6/1/1/2 on 57/-/60
Barea: 6/2/3/0/0 on 41/40/33



2011 Mavericks (57-25), won NBA finals over Heat

Regular season
Dirk: 23/7/3/1/1 on 52/39/89
Terry: 16/2/4/1/0 on 45/36/85
Butler (only 29 games due to injury): 15/4/2/1/0 on 45/43/77
Marion: 13/7/1/1/1 on 52/15/77
Tyson Chandler: 10/9/0/1/1 on 65/-/73
Barea: 10/2/4/0/0 on 44/35/85
Peja Stojakovic (acquired late in season): 9/3/1/0/0 on 43/40/94
Kidd: 8/4/8/2/0 on 36/34/87

Playoffs
Dirk: 28/8/3/1/1 on 49/46/94
Terry: 18/2/3/1/0 on 48/44/84
Marion: 12/6/2/1/1 on 47/0/85
Kidd: 9/5/7/2/1 on 40/37/80
Barea: 9/2/3/0/0 on 42/32/79
Chandler: 8/9/0/1/1 on 58/-/68
Stojakovic: 7/2/0/1/0 on 41/38/79



2012 Mavericks (36-30), lost to Thunder in 1st round

Regular season
Dirk: 22/7/2/1/1 on 46/37/90
Terry: 15/2/4/1/0 on 43/38/88
Marion: 11/7/2/1/1 on 45/29/80
Vince Carter: 10/3/2/1/0 on 41/36/83
Delonte West: 10/2/3/1/0 on 46/36/89
Rodrigue Beaubois: 9/3/3/1/1 on 42/29/84
Kidd: 6/4/6/2/0 on 36/35/79

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/6/2/1/0 on 44/17/91
Terry: 14/2/4/0/0 on 46/50/63
Marion: 12/8/1/0/1 on 43/29/90
Kidd: 12/6/6/3/0 on 34/35/90
Carter: 8/6/0/1/1 on 29/30/75
West: 8/2/2/1/0 on 42/50/100
Note: Beaubois barely played in playoffs








So...Dirk was part of a big 3 from 2001-04. In 2004, he was one of FIVE Mavericks to average 14+ PPG. He has played with Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Juwan Howard (yes, he was good once), Nick Van Exel, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler. I won't include Vince Carter or Keith Van Horn, they were done when Dirk played with 'em (not his fault either).



All the guys I mentioned (excluding Carter and Van Horn) have combined for:

37 All-Star Games between 13 different players.
8 All-NBA 1st teams between Nash and Kidd
3 All-NBA 2nd teams between Nash and Kidd
6 All-NBA 3rd teams between Nash, Marion, Chandler and Juwan Howard
2 NBA MVP awards by Steve Nash
4 All-Defensive 1st teams by Jason Kidd
7 All-Defensive 2nd teams between Kidd and Chandler
1 Defensive Player of the Year by Tyson Chandler
2 6th Man of the Year awards between Terry and Jamison
Finley (3 times), Jamison (once), Antoine Walker (once), Stackhouse (twice), Nash (8 times), Marion (twice), and Kidd (8 times) have received votes for MVP.


"Buh-buh-buh-buh dirk Never had help" :rolleyes:


This needs to be seen again.

[longtime lurker]

Dirk has played with at least 6 or 7 all star players over the course of his career. And when you have 60+ win seasons and the number 1 record in the league you're good enough to win it all plain and simple. Don't bring up the bullshit supporting cast argument.

[Dictator]

2011.

[RRR3]

2011.
That's true, the year Dirk won it all was a year in which he had one of his least stacked teams. Marion and Kidd had declined severely, Butler had a season ending injury, Peja was on his last legs, and Terry was the only real scorer besides Dirk. However, they were much better defensively and better coached than a lot of the previous Mavericks teams, and they were on FIRE from three in the playoffs (Dirk was just on fire, period lol). However, I still think they should have lost to the Heat. The biggest reason the Heat lost is probably because LeBron's production resembled Andre Iguodala instead of LeBron James. The Heat weren't as good at working as a team either, but LeBron kind of gifted the Mavs that series IMO. That is NOT to say the Mavericks didn't earn it, of course.

[HorryIsMyMVP]

It's not easy to find articles from 10 years ago...:facepalm

[SilkkTheShocker]

Did a poster really just say the cavs had top tier talent? Lol

[veilside23]

op is just the guy who hates KG the most... LoL prior to the celtics team that kg got.

the worst team assembled for dirk may prolly give kg 2 wcf ....

dont try to put words into peoples mouth silk.. you hate kg and still think dirk is over kg ....

[BlackVVaves]

Jason Terry has NOT been the Mavericks second best player every year since 2005. :facepalm Dirk has had some damn good teams, not taking anything away from his greatness, but don't act like he never had help, that's ridiculous. A look at Dirk's teams from his 3rd year on (to be fairer to Dirk I excluded his first two years)


2001 Mavericks (53-29), lost to Spurs in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 22/9/2/1/1 on 47/39/84
Michael Finley: 22/5/4/1/0 on 46/35/78
Steve Nash: 16/3/7/1/0 on 49/41/90
Juwan Howard (midseason pickup): 18/7/3/1/1 on 49/0/78

Playoffs
Dirk: 23/8/1/1/1 on 42/28/88
Finley: 20/5/4/1/0 on 36/36/82
Nash: 14/3/6/1/0 on 42/41/88
Ju. Howard: 13/8/1/1/1 on 36/-/80




2002 Mavericks (57-25), lost to Kings in 2nd round

Regular Season
Dirk: 23/10/2/1/1 on 48/40/85
Finley: 21/5/3/1/0 on 46/34/84
Nash: 18/3/8/1/0 on 48/46/89
Ju. Howard (traded midseason): 13/7/2/1/1 on 46/0/75
Nick Van Exel (acquired in Ju. Howard trade): 13/3/4/1/0 on 41/35/84
Raef LaFrentz (acquired in Ju. Howard trade): 11/7/1/1/2 on 44/31/76

Playoffs
Dirk: 28/13/2/2/1 on 45/57/88
Finley: 25/6/2/2/1 on 47/38/90
Nash: 20/4/9/1/0 on 43/44/97
LaFrentz: 11/8/1/0/3 on 50/33/55
Van Exel: 11/3/4/1/0 on 37/21/67



2003 Mavericks (60-22), lost to Spurs in WCF

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/10/3/1/1 on 46/38/88
Finley: 19/6/3/1/0 on 43/37/86
Nash: 18/3/7/1/0 on 47/41/91
Van Exel: 13/3/4/1/0 on 41/38/76

Playoffs
Dirk: 25/12/2/1/1 on 48/44/91
Van Exel: 20/3/4/1/0 on 46/39/70
Finley: 18/6/3/1/1 on 44/41/86
Nash: 16/4/7/1/0 on 45/49/87



2004 Mavericks (52-30), lost to Kings in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 22/9/3/1/1 on 46/34/88
Finley: 19/5/3/1/1 on 44/41/85
Antawn Jamison: 15/6/1/1/0 on 54/40/75
Nash: 15/3/9/1/0 on 47/41/92
Antoine Walker: 14/8/5/1/1 on 43/27/55
Josh Howard: 9/6/1/1/1 on 43/30/70
Marquis Daniels: 9/3/2/1/0 on 49/31/77

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/1/1/3 on 45/47/86
Daniels: 16/6/3/2/1 on 43/14/64
Nash: 14/5/9/1/0 on 39/38/89
Finley: 13/3/3/1/1 on 38/27/60
Jamison: 13/5/0/1/0 on 46/25/73
Walker: 10/10/2/1/1 on 36/10/57
Jo. Howard: 5/6/1/1/1 on 22/20/91



2005 Mavericks (58-24), lost to Suns in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 26/10/3/1/2 on 46/40/87
Finley: 16/4/3/1/0 on 43/41/83
Jerry Stackhouse: 15/3/2/1/0 on 41/27/85
Jo. Howard: 13/6/1/2/1 on 48/30/73
Jason Terry: 12/2/5/1/0 on 50/42/84
Kevin Van Horn (acquired midseason): 12/4/1/1/0 on 46/38/78
Erick Dampier: 9/9/1/0/1 on 55/0/61
Daniels: 9/4/2/1/0 on 44/20/74

Playoffs
Dirk: 24/10/3/1/2 on 40/33/83
Terry: 18/4/5/1/1 on 51/49/88
Stackhouse: 16/4/2/1/0 on 39/40/86
Jo. Howard: 16/7/2/1/1 on 50/25/75
Finley: 13/4/2/1/0 on 43/39/89
Dampier: 7/8/1/1/1 on 60/0/39
Daniels: 7/3/1/1/0 on 43/17/70
note: Van Horn played very little in playoffs



2006 Mavericks (60-22), lost to Heat in finals

Regular season
Dirk: 27/9/3/1/1 on 48/41/90
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 47/41/80
Jo. Howard: 16/6/2/1/0 on 47/43/73
Stackhouse: 13/3/3/1/0 on 40/28/88
Daniels: 10/4/3/1/0 on 48/21/75
Devin Harris: 10/2/3/1/0 on 47/24/72

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/3/1/1 on 47/34/90
Terry: 19/3/4/1/0 on 44/31/83
Jo. Howard: 17/7/1/1/1 on 45/37/81
Stackhouse: 14/3/3/1/0 on 40/34/78
Harris: 9/2/2/1/0 on 48/0/70



2007 Mavericks (67-15), lost to Warriors in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/9/3/1/1 on 50/42/90
Jo. Howard: 19/7/2/1/1 on 46/39/83
Terry: 17/3/5/1/0 on 48/44/80
Stackhouse: 12/2/3/1/0 on 43/38/85
Harris: 10/3/4/1/0 on 49/28/82

Playoffs
Jo. Howard: 21/10/3/2/1 on 52/39/70
Dirk: 20/11/2/2/1 on 38/21/84
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 42/28/83
Stackhouse: 14/4/3/1/0 on 35/36/88
Harris: 13/2/5/1/0 on 49/30/74



2008 Mavericks (51-31), lost to Hornets in 1st round

Regular season
Dirk: 24/9/4/1/1 on 48/36/88
Jo. Howard: 20/7/2/1/0 on 46/32/81
Terry: 16/3/3/1/0 on 47/38/86
Harris (traded midseason): 14/2/5/1/0 on 48/36/82
Stackhouse: 11/2/3/1/0 on 41/33/89
Jason Kidd (acquired for Harris): 10/7/10/2/0 on 43/46/82
Brandon Bass: 8/4/1/0/1 on 50/0/82

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/12/4/0/1 on 47/33/81
Terry: 16/2/5/0/0 on 43/44/87
Jo. Howard: 13/7/1/0/0 on 29/10/80
Bass: 12/7/0/1/1 on 47/0/96
Kidd: 9/6/7/1/0 on 42/46/63
Stackhouse: 6/3/1/0/0 on 32/17/100



2009 Mavericks (50-32) lost to Nuggets in 2nd round

Regular season
Dirk: 26/8/2/1/1 on 48/36/89
Terry: 20/2/3/1/0 on 46/37/88
Jo. Howard: 18/5/2/1/1 on 45/35/78
Kidd: 9/6/9/2/1 on 42/41/82
Bass: 9/5/1/0/1 on 50/0/87
J.J. Barea: 8/2/3/1/0 on 44/36/75

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/10/3/1/1 on 52/29/93
Jo. Howard: 16/5/1/1/0 on 44/25/78
Terry: 14/3/2/1/0 on 39/37/77
Kidd: 11/6/6/2/0 on 46/45/85
Bass: 9/4/1/1/0 on 55/-/90
Barea: 8/2/3/0/0 on 44/31/69



2010 Mavericks (55-27), lost to Spurs in 1st round

Regular Season
Dirk: 25/8/3/1/1 on 48/42/92
Terry: 17/2/4/1/0 on 44/37/87
Jo. Howard (traded midseason): 13/4/1/1/0 on 40/27/79
Caron Butler (acquired in Jo. Howard trade): 15/5/2/2/0 on 44/34/76
Shawn Marion: 12/6/1/1/1 on 51/16/76
Kidd: 10/6/9/2/0 on 42/43/81
Drew Gooden (traded midseason): 9/7/1/1/1 on 47/17/81
Brendan Haywood (acquired in Jo. Howard trade): 8/7/1/0/2 on 56/0/58
Barea: 8/2/3/0/0 on 44/36/84

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/8/3/1/1 on 55/57/95
Butler: 20/6/1/2/1 on 43/30/93
Terry: 13/3/2/1/0 on 38/40/75
Marion: 9/4/1/0/1 on 41/0/80
Kidd: 8/7/7/2/0 on 30/32/92
Haywood: 6/6/1/1/2 on 57/-/60
Barea: 6/2/3/0/0 on 41/40/33



2011 Mavericks (57-25), won NBA finals over Heat

Regular season
Dirk: 23/7/3/1/1 on 52/39/89
Terry: 16/2/4/1/0 on 45/36/85
Butler (only 29 games due to injury): 15/4/2/1/0 on 45/43/77
Marion: 13/7/1/1/1 on 52/15/77
Tyson Chandler: 10/9/0/1/1 on 65/-/73
Barea: 10/2/4/0/0 on 44/35/85
Peja Stojakovic (acquired late in season): 9/3/1/0/0 on 43/40/94
Kidd: 8/4/8/2/0 on 36/34/87

Playoffs
Dirk: 28/8/3/1/1 on 49/46/94
Terry: 18/2/3/1/0 on 48/44/84
Marion: 12/6/2/1/1 on 47/0/85
Kidd: 9/5/7/2/1 on 40/37/80
Barea: 9/2/3/0/0 on 42/32/79
Chandler: 8/9/0/1/1 on 58/-/68
Stojakovic: 7/2/0/1/0 on 41/38/79



2012 Mavericks (36-30), lost to Thunder in 1st round

Regular season
Dirk: 22/7/2/1/1 on 46/37/90
Terry: 15/2/4/1/0 on 43/38/88
Marion: 11/7/2/1/1 on 45/29/80
Vince Carter: 10/3/2/1/0 on 41/36/83
Delonte West: 10/2/3/1/0 on 46/36/89
Rodrigue Beaubois: 9/3/3/1/1 on 42/29/84
Kidd: 6/4/6/2/0 on 36/35/79

Playoffs
Dirk: 27/6/2/1/0 on 44/17/91
Terry: 14/2/4/0/0 on 46/50/63
Marion: 12/8/1/0/1 on 43/29/90
Kidd: 12/6/6/3/0 on 34/35/90
Carter: 8/6/0/1/1 on 29/30/75
West: 8/2/2/1/0 on 42/50/100
Note: Beaubois barely played in playoffs








So...Dirk was part of a big 3 from 2001-04. In 2004, he was one of FIVE Mavericks to average 14+ PPG. He has played with Michael Finley, Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Jason Terry, Antawn Jamison, Antoine Walker, Juwan Howard (yes, he was good once), Nick Van Exel, Josh Howard, Jerry Stackhouse, Devin Harris, Caron Butler, Shawn Marion and Tyson Chandler. I won't include Vince Carter or Keith Van Horn, they were done when Dirk played with 'em (not his fault either).



All the guys I mentioned (excluding Carter and Van Horn) have combined for:

37 All-Star Games between 13 different players.
8 All-NBA 1st teams between Nash and Kidd
3 All-NBA 2nd teams between Nash and Kidd
6 All-NBA 3rd teams between Nash, Marion, Chandler and Juwan Howard
2 NBA MVP awards by Steve Nash
4 All-Defensive 1st teams by Jason Kidd
7 All-Defensive 2nd teams between Kidd and Chandler
1 Defensive Player of the Year by Tyson Chandler
2 6th Man of the Year awards between Terry and Jamison
Finley (3 times), Jamison (once), Antoine Walker (once), Stackhouse (twice), Nash (8 times), Marion (twice), and Kidd (8 times) have received votes for MVP.


"Buh-buh-buh-buh dirk Never had help" :rolleyes:

I really, truly believe that SilkktheShocker started watching basketball in 2006. Seriously.

Good find RRR3. Good stuff indeed :applause:

[Mike Barrett]

He doesn't compare to LMA.

[DirkLegend41]

Mavs had stacked teams in '04, '06, '10, '11 and '12.

[Mike Barrett]

Mavs had stacked teams in '04, '06, '10, '11 and '12.
And failed to win every year, except one. What a player.

[Kblaze8855]

I wouldnt call a couple of those Mavs teams stacked straight talent wise.

[iamgine]

Jason Terry has NOT been the Mavericks second best player every year since 2005. :facepalm Dirk has had some damn good teams, not taking anything away from his greatness, but don't act like he never had help, that's ridiculous. A look at Dirk's teams from his 3rd year on (to be fairer to Dirk I excluded his first two years)


Clearly Dirk had a good team. Just like Lebron in Cleveland and Dwight in Magic had good teams. It's just that he never had a star caliber player play alongside him, except maybe Nash. But pre-phoenix Nash wasn't exactly the MVP Nash. Kidd was good but way past his prime. I don't think other than Nash there's anyone as good as, say, prime Lamar Odom.

[JBull]

He had great teams, but when did you one say he had the best team in the league? Exactly, he never had a true stacked team.

[MiamiThrice]

All the guys I mentioned (excluding Carter and Van Horn) have combined for:

37 All-Star Games between 13 different players.
8 All-NBA 1st teams between Nash and Kidd
3 All-NBA 2nd teams between Nash and Kidd
6 All-NBA 3rd teams between Nash, Marion, Chandler and Juwan Howard
2 NBA MVP awards by Steve Nash
4 All-Defensive 1st teams by Jason Kidd
7 All-Defensive 2nd teams between Kidd and Chandler
1 Defensive Player of the Year by Tyson Chandler
2 6th Man of the Year awards between Terry and Jamison
Finley (3 times), Jamison (once), Antoine Walker (once), Stackhouse (twice), Nash (8 times), Marion (twice), and Kidd (8 times) have received votes for MVP.

"Buh-buh-buh-buh dirk Never had help" :rolleyes:

Lol I can tell this kid has a babydick.

What does Nash/Kidd/whoevers awards and honors they earned while playing for other teams have to do with what they did on Dallas as complimentary players? Dirk had all of these "high profileplayers" when they were old and role players(Kidd/Marion/Howard),or before they broke out (Nash).

The fact is Dirk has had the worst casts of any player in the top 20 all-time while still setting records for most consecutive seasons with 50+ wins and won a title without another HOFer playing at an elite level. You can't say that for anyone else in the history of the NBA.

[D.J.]

He had Steve Nash and Michael Finley up until 2004. Then he had Antawn Jamison(14 PPG on 54% shooting), Antoine Walker, Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, and others.

And I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but Erick Dampier is much more valuable than people give him credit for. He's a solid post defender, can grab 7-8 RPG and 2 BPG in limited minutes, and can also be used to foul poor foul shooters(Hack-a-Shaq). I feel the same way about DeSagana Diop.

I created a thread maybe about 6 months ago stating that the Mavs, considering the talent surrounding Dirk, are a bunch of underachievers in that since 2001, they only won 1 title. I specifically mentioned they should have won 2-3 easily and I stand by that. That team had a 25 PPG, another 20 PPG, a top PG, elite shot blocking, jump shooting big men, and a good bench. And despite all this, 1 title and that didn't even come until 2011.

[iamgine]

He had Steve Nash and Michael Finley up until 2004. Then he had Antawn Jamison(14 PPG on 54% shooting), Antoine Walker, Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd, Shawn Marion, and others.

And I'm probably going to get some flack for this, but Erick Dampier is much more valuable than people give him credit for. He's a solid post defender, can grab 7-8 RPG and 2 BPG in limited minutes, and can also be used to foul poor foul shooters(Hack-a-Shaq). I feel the same way about DeSagana Diop.

I created a thread maybe about 6 months ago stating that the Mavs, considering the talent surrounding Dirk, are a bunch of underachievers in that since 2001, they only won 1 title. I specifically mentioned they should have won 2-3 easily and I stand by that. That team had a 25 PPG, another 20 PPG, a top PG, elite shot blocking, jump shooting big men, and a good bench. And despite all this, 1 title and that didn't even come until 2011.
Their talent throughout 00s doesn't exactly measure up to the Lakers or Spurs from 99-07. Not even to Boston from 08 onwards. Even in 2011, they were inferior to Lakers, Boston, Thunders and Heat. I don't think anyone ever consider them top contender. 1 title was pretty amazing. Could've had 2.

[D.J.]

Their talent throughout 00s doesn't exactly measure up to the Lakers or Spurs from 99-07. Not even to Boston from 08 onwards. Even in 2011, they were inferior to Lakers, Boston, Thunders and Heat. I don't think anyone ever consider them top contender. 1 title was pretty amazing. Could've had 2.


The Lakers dynasty ended in '02 and the Spurs were not out of reach. The Mavs even beat the Spurs in '06 while winning game 7 on the road. Anyway, I found my thread that I created pointing out how Dirk and the Mavs failed multiple times and should have more than 1 title.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239321

[iamgine]

The Lakers dynasty ended in '02 and the Spurs were not out of reach. The Mavs even beat the Spurs in '06 while winning game 7 on the road. Anyway, I found my thread that I created pointing out how Dirk and the Mavs failed multiple times and should have more than 1 title.


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239321
Lakers were better till 03-04.

And Mavs won against Spurs in 06 despite Spurs being better, just like Mavs won in 2011 despite Heat, Celtics, Lakers and Thunder being better.

[noosaman]

LOL as soon as Nash left, all the ESPN analysts were claiming Dirk would be exposed and the Mavs miss the postseason.

I remember an article where Bucher said verbatim " the new look mavs will try to get out and run and create for themselves, two things Dirk cannot do."

People like Kblaze etc can type out their 50,000 word essays claiming the opposite but every true fan knows the truth.

Back in 02-03 when the Mavs had Nash, Dirk, and Finley, the Kings, Spurs and Lakers all had more talented teams, and so did even the Blazers

[noosaman]

Most people on ISH who criticize Dirk have a massive agenda, so even credible posters will claim he had very talented teams, even though that is far from the truth throughout most of his career. I've said before that I don't like blaming the race factor, but you have to think it has something to do with the attacks on him as a player.

Only Lebron has played with less talent in the last decade and consistently taken his teams to 50+ wins. Dirk is incredibly special, top 20 player no doubt and a top 10 franchise player of all time when you consider what he did for Dallas (an absolute joke before he came along).


THIS, you will never see a player who casual fans choose to criticize as unjustly as they do with Dirk. meanwhile guys like Iverson have ALWAYS been granted a free pass.

What Dirk did with no teams was nothing short of incredible

[Kblaze8855]

04/05 predictions:

http://www.nba.com/preview2004/west_forecast.html

^

Mavs 4th


http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/tank/nba/nba2005.html

^
Mavs 51 wins



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/magazine/10/14/main/

^

Dallas 6th


chad ford:

http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings?year=2005&week=-1


There's still too much there to drop Dallas out of the top 10 sans Nash. That said, looks like Mavs still have too many scorers and not enough passers, even if they do improve on D.

That top 10 isnt in the west...its in the league.


Worst I could find:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1891972


Mark Stein

The bet here, like Nellie asserts, is that Nash will be the proud one after Nowitzki's first season on his own. The post-Nash Mavs still don't look like a team that should be picked higher than fourth in the West -- they look like a 4-5-6 seed, at best, after so many changes and plenty of fresh uncertainty -- but The Diggler? He's the last Mav to fret about.


And thats the worst I could find. Saying not higher than 4th...mid seed at best.


And I had been on ISh for years already then....we were not picking the Mavs to fall out of the playoffs. Nash wasnt even considered that good at the time.

As I said...everyone picking against the Mavs to make the playoffs is just in the heads of Mavs fans.

[noosaman]

04/05 predictions:

http://www.nba.com/preview2004/west_forecast.html

^

Mavs 4th


http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/tank/nba/nba2005.html

^
Mavs 51 wins



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/magazine/10/14/main/

^

Dallas 6th


chad ford:

http://espn.go.com/nba/powerrankings?year=2005&week=-1



That top 10 isnt in the west...its in the league.


Worst I could find:


http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=1891972


Mark Stein

The bet here, like Nellie asserts, is that Nash will be the proud one after Nowitzki's first season on his own. The post-Nash Mavs still don't look like a team that should be picked higher than fourth in the West -- they look like a 4-5-6 seed, at best, after so many changes and plenty of fresh uncertainty -- but The Diggler? He's the last Mav to fret about.


And thats the worst I could find. Saying not higher than 4th...mid seed at best.


And I had been on ISh for years already then....we were not picking the Mavs to fall out of the playoffs. Nash wasnt even considered that good at the time.

As I said...everyone picking against the Mavs to make the playoffs is just in the heads of Mavs fans.

So if they are picked in your words, to be a 4th seed at best, that makes them a middling team out West--how can they possibly be stacked?

try to dig your way out of that hole.

[BEAST Griffin]

Dirk has never played on stacked teams. There have always been several teams in the league that were better on paper.

[Kblaze8855]

Hole? Feel free to show me where I said the 05 Mavs were stacked. I said the worst prediction I could find on them had them 4-5-6 at best.

Guy told me more often than not the Mavs were picked to miss the playoffs in Dirks career. I remember differently...as do people who have no reason to lie. Im the only one providing any evidence here. I have no hole to dig out of.

Nobody following this league the last 15 years would buy the BS being put out here.

The Mavs have been picked to be a good team since 2001. The worst team they had....you arent finding anything that suggests people for the most part thought they wouldnt make it but I can sure as hell find you proof that many thought they would.

The rest is just deflection.

[iamgine]

Hole? Feel free to show me where I said the 05 Mavs were stacked. I said the worst prediction I could find on them had them 4-5-6 at best.

Guy told me more often than not the Mavs were picked to miss the playoffs in Dirks career. I remember differently...as do people who have no reason to lie. Im the only one providing any evidence here. I have no hole to dig out of.

Nobody following this league the last 15 years would buy the BS being put out here.

The Mavs have been picked to be a good team since 2001. The worst team they had....you arent finding anything that suggests people for the most part thought they wouldnt make it but I can sure as hell find you proof that many thought they would.

The rest is just deflection.
Why do you let yourself be trolled by one person?

[Kblaze8855]

There are people I disregard. He was never one of them. Someone I dont know to be an idiot says something that stupid I have to get more information.

[HardwoodLegend]

Can anyone explain to me what Dirk did so differently than KG to help his teams have more success?

Was he that much more efficient on offense? More versatile? A better anchor for the defense?

I am struggling to find the justification for saying Dirk >>>> KG. His teams might not have looked good on paper, but I don't think all of their performance should be credited to Dirk alone. Dirk was obviously lucky to get good players within their roles and who could create chemistry amongst themselves.

[D.J.]

Back in 02-03 when the Mavs had Nash, Dirk, and Finley, the Kings, Spurs and Lakers all had more talented teams, and so did even the Blazers


Nash vs Stoudamire
Finley vs Anderson
LaFrentz vs Wells
Dirk vs Wallace
Bradley = Davis

Van Exel vs McInnis
Najera vs Patterson


So Dallas has 4 very clear advantages and Portland has 2 advantages that are borderline. And Dallas won 10 more games that year. The Blazers weren't better in 2003, not even close.

[iamgine]

Can anyone explain to me what Dirk did so differently than KG to help his teams have more success?

Was he that much more efficient on offense? More versatile? A better anchor for the defense?

I am struggling to find the justification for saying Dirk >>>> KG. His teams might not have looked good on paper, but I don't think all of their performance should be credited to Dirk alone. Dirk was obviously lucky to get good players within their roles and who could create chemistry amongst themselves.

Dirk was just an elite offensive player. A mismatch nightmare for many teams. The kind that doesn't get affected no matter what the defense is. Averaged 26 PPG on Tim Duncan from 01-09 with 57 TS%. He was not very versatile and not a defensive anchor by any means. But he wreck other team's defense.

[MiamiThrice]

Yo noosaman ignore that kblaze retard. He hates on Dirk in every thread and I saw him sucking off guys like KG who havn't won 1/10th as much as Dirk. He posted a link of the 04-05 preview as evidence against Dirk. Funny because in that same preview the Timberwolves are tied with the Spurs for the first seed(based on predictions). Guess who missed the playoffs that year? LOL not Dirk, but overrated KG!!

Kevin Garnett also played in and was healthy for all 82 games that same season.

In b4 paragraphs of whining and crying about injuries to role players. The talent of a predicted first overall seed and missed the playoffs? LOL disa-****ing-pointing.

[Anaximandro1]

Yo noosaman ignore that kblaze retard. He hates on Dirk in every thread and I saw him sucking off guys like KG who havn't won 1/10th as much as Dirk. He posted a link of the 04-05 preview as evidence against Dirk. Funny because in that same preview the Timberwolves are tied with the Spurs for the first seed(based on predictions). Guess who missed the playoffs that year? LOL not Dirk, but overrated KG!!

Kevin Garnett also played in and was healthy for all 82 games that same season.

In b4 paragraphs of whining and crying about injuries to role players. The talent of a predicted first overall seed and missed the playoffs? LOL disa-****ing-pointing.

Wow


GM Survey: Which team will win the Western Conference in 2004-05?

San Antonio Spurs
71.4%

Minnesota Timberwolves
28.6%

http://www.nba.com/preview2004/west_forecast.html

[Mr Know It All]

Kblaze has a MASSIVE agenda against Dirk Nowitzki, so much so that he is clinging on something a poster said on the first page of this thread that really isn't relevant to what the OP was trying to say. Dirk Nowitzki has never been on truly STACKED teams, that is the argument. Not whether or not his teams were picked to make the playoffs, you have proven your point now it is time to move on to the actual argument.

After Nash left, he played with ONE all star in 2007: Josh Howard. Even with Nash, the Mavericks never put together a team with very good pieces, the 03-04 Mavs were a mess, and Nash was not even close to the player he was in Phoenix.

And his teams have never been a darling for picks in the post season or the regular season, and it is because of their lack of talent (Also because of disrespect for Dirk as a player). Hell, he was robbed of an MVP in 2006 even though he had a statistically dominant season (his very best) and led the Mavericks to 60 wins. That oversight and the gift to Steve Nash was an abomination.

10+ 50 win seasons in a row, turning a franchise around, and being the cornerstone on several different teams is proof enough of his amazing ability as a team leader. He took three completely different teams to the WCF, and two completely different teams to the Finals (One who won a championship, another who should have but ran into Wade and some terrible officiating).

[Kblaze8855]

Kblaze has a MASSIVE agenda against Dirk Nowitzki, so much so that he is clinging on something a poster said on the first page of this thread that really isn't relevant to what the OP was trying to say. Dirk Nowitzki has never been on truly STACKED teams, that is the argument. Not whether or not his teams were picked to make the playoffs, you have proven your point now it is time to move on to the actual argument.

Massive agenda because an idiotic statement caught my eye and was then argued as if it were true?

I dont care about this guys Dirk thing hes been on for some times now. Its a tired argument.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Stacked teams are hard to determine. It takes a certain amount of talent and depth. Best recent examples would be the 2000 Blazers and 2002 Kings. Also teams like the '93-'96 Sonics and '98 Lakers.

First team I'd say you can start the argument with is '02. '03 team had the same players except they were improved from '02, but it's debatable whether they had the depth, but they did have a top 10 player in Dirk, Nash who was a top 15 player and top 3 PG and 2 additional players with all-star ability. '04 team was probably stacked, but not built particularly well. Once the '05 team got healthy around the time Avery took over as coach, I'd say they were probably stacked. '07 team might have been stacked as well, certainly Dirk's most well rounded team.

'07 Mavs may have been one of the three 65+ win teams that I thought were least likely to win that many games, though. Several of Dirk's teams did overachieve including 2011. I must admit that I didn't give the '11 Mavs much of a chance to win a championship after Caron Butler went down, though I did have them beating Portland unlike some people.


Thats on the short list of most untrue things ive ever read here.

Yeah, when the hell were the Mavs supposed to miss the playoffs?

They were almost always considered one of the best teams in the West and often a legit title contender.


It's not easy to find articles from 10 years ago...:facepalm

You heard of google archives?



Back in 02-03 when the Mavs had Nash, Dirk, and Finley, the Kings, Spurs and Lakers all had more talented teams, and so did even the Blazers

The only team I'd say for sure had more talent in '03 was the Kings.

[D.J.]

The only team I'd say for sure had more talent in '03 was the Kings.


If it weren't for Webber going down, I think they could have gone all the way. They were that good.

[kNicKz]

dirk is filthy, an all time great

[Mach_3]

Yo noosaman ignore that kblaze retard. He hates on Dirk in every thread and I saw him sucking off guys like KG who havn't won 1/10th as much as Dirk. He posted a link of the 04-05 preview as evidence against Dirk. Funny because in that same preview the Timberwolves are tied with the Spurs for the first seed(based on predictions). Guess who missed the playoffs that year? LOL not Dirk, but overrated KG!! .

:crazysam:

[noosaman]

Stacked teams are hard to determine. It takes a certain amount of talent and depth. Best recent examples would be the 2000 Blazers and 2002 Kings. Also teams like the '93-'96 Sonics and '98 Lakers.

First team I'd say you can start the argument with is '02. '03 team had the same players except they were improved from '02, but it's debatable whether they had the depth, but they did have a top 10 player in Dirk, Nash who was a top 15 player and top 3 PG and 2 additional players with all-star ability. '04 team was probably stacked, but not built particularly well. Once the '05 team got healthy around the time Avery took over as coach, I'd say they were probably stacked. '07 team might have been stacked as well, certainly Dirk's most well rounded team.

'07 Mavs may have been one of the three 65+ win teams that I thought were least likely to win that many games, though. Several of Dirk's teams did overachieve including 2011. I must admit that I didn't give the '11 Mavs much of a chance to win a championship after Caron Butler went down, though I did have them beating Portland unlike some people.



Yeah, when the hell were the Mavs supposed to miss the playoffs?

They were almost always considered one of the best teams in the West and often a legit title contender.



You heard of google archives?



The only team I'd say for sure had more talent in '03 was the Kings.


What? The lakers had Shaq and Kobe, the two best players in the league by far at the time...that easily trumps Nash and Finley and spare parts.

The 02-03 Mavs had a horrendous big man rotation (Bradley, Najera, Wahad) and a weak SF slot. Realistically we were solid at 2 positions and Finley was an average-slightly above average shooting guard.

The Spurs were deeper as well. Even the Suns had young Amare and marion...

[ShaqAttack3234]

If it weren't for Webber going down, I think they could have gone all the way. They were that good.

I agree, they didn't have their full team until the final 25 games or so and still won 59 games. They could run with the best of them, but also had one of the best half court offenses. They had an excellent front court with the best passing big men and guys who could post up, but also a lethal perimeter game. And they were underrated defensively.

After barely losing in '02, I think '03 would have been their year with the Lakers eliminated. They still took Dallas to 7even with C-Webb's injury in game 2.

As far as talent, those '02 and '03 Kings were up there for most talented team of the decade, certainly the first half of the decade rivaled by only the 2000 Blazers.


What? The lakers had Shaq and Kobe, the two best players in the league by far at the time...that easily trumps Nash and Finley and spare parts.

Duncan was the best player. KG was probably second best, though Shaq has a case for 2nd. Kobe was 5th behind those players and T-Mac. I will say in fairness that Shaq and Kobe were still often called the 2 best players during the season, but by the time the playoffs had concluded, it was clear that Duncan had taken over as the league's best player.

Anyway, there were quite a few people calling the Mavs the most talented team in the league. Probably more than the Lakers since after the 90's, I don't remember many calling the Lakers the most talented team until '04 when they added Payton and Malone. This isn't to be confused with championship predictions.

The Lakers had been lacking during the 3peat as far as talent around their duo, but now in '03, their supporting cast was even older. It's not a coincidence that '03 was the last season we really saw that same core around Shaq/Kobe.


The 02-03 Mavs had a horrendous big man rotation (Bradley, Najera, Wahad) and a weak SF slot. Realistically we were solid at 2 positions and Finley was an average-slightly above average shooting guard.

:oldlol: at Finley being a slightly above average shooting guard. He was an all-star-caliber player and 20 ppg scorer. He was a very good shooter, an athletic finisher and a strong isolation scorer. But that just covers his scoring, he was also a good all around player.

Now the Lakers, they were just solid at 2 positions.

And I'm not talking about how well the Mavs were built(although they were legitimate contenders in 2003), which is what you seem to be talking about. I'm talking about talent. Their 4th all-star caliber player was Nick Van Exel who averaged nearly 20 ppg in the playoffs and went off for 3 games over 35 points.

They didn't have the best role players, but they had 2-3 solid ones. And how much more do you expect with the firepower of their top 4.


The Spurs were deeper as well. Even the Suns had young Amare and marion...

The Spurs were deeper, but I really don't think I'd call them more talented. The Mavs had two top 15 players themselves, and 4 players with all-star ability. I'm not dismissing the Spurs depth, but they had just 1 all-star caliber player. They had other guys who could step up and play like all-stars depending on the night, but nobody who did so on a consistent basis.

[noosaman]

I agree, they didn't have their full team until the final 25 games or so and still won 59 games. They could run with the best of them, but also had one of the best half court offenses. They had an excellent front court with the best passing big men and guys who could post up, but also a lethal perimeter game. And they were underrated defensively.

After barely losing in '02, I think '03 would have been their year with the Lakers eliminated. They still took Dallas to 7even with C-Webb's injury in game 2.

As far as talent, those '02 and '03 Kings were up there for most talented team of the decade, certainly the first half of the decade rivaled by only the 2000 Blazers.



Duncan was the best player. KG was probably second best, though Shaq has a case for 2nd. Kobe was 5th behind those players and T-Mac. I will say in fairness that Shaq and Kobe were still often called the 2 best players during the season, but by the time the playoffs had concluded, it was clear that Duncan had taken over as the league's best player.

Anyway, there were quite a few people calling the Mavs the most talented team in the league. Probably more than the Lakers since after the 90's, I don't remember many calling the Lakers the most talented team until '04 when they added Payton and Malone. This isn't to be confused with championship predictions.

The Lakers had been lacking during the 3peat as far as talent around their duo, but now in '03, their supporting cast was even older. It's not a coincidence that '03 was the last season we really saw that same core around Shaq/Kobe.



:oldlol: at Finley being a slightly above average shooting guard. He was an all-star-caliber player and 20 ppg scorer. He was a very good shooter, an athletic finisher and a strong isolation scorer. But that just covers his scoring, he was also a good all around player.

Now the Lakers, they were just solid at 2 positions.

And I'm not talking about how well the Mavs were built(although they were legitimate contenders in 2003), which is what you seem to be talking about. I'm talking about talent. Their 4th all-star caliber player was Nick Van Exel who averaged nearly 20 ppg in the playoffs and went off for 3 games over 35 points.

They didn't have the best role players, but they had 2-3 solid ones. And how much more do you expect with the firepower of their top 4.



The Spurs were deeper, but I really don't think I'd call them more talented. The Mavs had two top 15 players themselves, and 4 players with all-star ability. I'm not dismissing the Spurs depth, but they had just 1 all-star caliber player. They had other guys who could step up and play like all-stars depending on the night, but nobody who did so on a consistent basis.


It wasn't even close. Shaq and Kobe were BY FAR the best players in the league back then. Garnett was if at all, slightly better than Dirk (I think Dirk had already surpassed him then anyways)...Lakers were just fatigued after the 3 peat more than anything.

Dude I love it when you talk about my team as if you know anything. Finley had the worst handles of ANY starting SG I have ever seen, and many Mavs fans have noticed it and brought it up for years. He was either a streak shooter or he would score off leak outs because he was a great leaper. Dude has no ability whatsoever to create off the dribble. He couldn't create his shot for shit and by 2002-2003 he was little more than a spot up shooter and a below average defensive player. No offense but you need to stick to following the Magic rather than telling me about guys on my team who I have watched for over 16 years now.

[ShaqAttack3234]

It wasn't even close. Shaq and Kobe were BY FAR the best players in the league back then. Garnett was if at all, slightly better than Dirk (I think Dirk had already surpassed him then anyways)...Lakers were just fatigued after the 3 peat more than anything.

What case does anyone have over Duncan in '03?

:roll: at Dirk being better than Garnett in '03. The 2 players weren't debatable at that time, KG took his game to a pretty amazing level in '03. In '03 and '04, he was just a bit better than he was any other year. Just seemed more dominant than he did other years.

Shaq was probably at the start of his decline, not that noticeable yet, but it's worth noting that he was clearly past his prime just the next season. I do acknowledge that he still had a case over Garnett, but I really don't see why I should take him over Duncan after the playoffs.


Dude I love it when you talk about my team as if you know anything. Finley had the worst handles of ANY starting SG I have ever seen, and many Mavs fans have noticed it and brought it up for years. He was either a streak shooter or he would score off leak outs because he was a great leaper. Dude has no ability whatsoever to create off the dribble. He couldn't create his shot for shit and by 2002-2003 he was little more than a spot up shooter and a below average defensive player. No offense but you need to stick to following the Magic rather than telling me about guys on my team who I have watched for over 16 years now.

The Mavs have been on national television for YEARS and played deep into the playoffs many times. I've seen more than enough to discuss them. I follow the NBA in general, certainly most of the teams that are relevant whenever I can as well as the NBA's best players.

Funny how you claim I'm speaking of things I don't know about when you then claim I'm a Magic fan, which I'm not nor have I ever been. I liked Penny when I was a kid, T-Mac the early 00's and Dwight the last few years(though a bit less now), but they've never been my favorite team.

Finley didn't have great handles, but he wasn't nearly as bad as you're making him out to be. He did an admirable job in 2000 when he had to take on a bigger ball-handling role, and he's always been a good isolation scorer. In fact in 2000, he really had to carry the Mavs a lot of the time, and did it playing with plantar fasciitis. He was the biggest reason they overachieved and led them to that great stretch at the end of the season that probably caused Don Nelson to come back rather than retire like he had announced.

[RRR3]

Brisbaneman/Noosaman/thomaspynchon is insane. :lol
:roll: @ one of the absolute DUMBEST posters on ISH (and that's saying something) arguing with probably the two smartest posters on ISH (kblaze and shaqattack) in regards to the NBA.

[KG215]

It wasn't even close. Shaq and Kobe were BY FAR the best players in the league back then. Garnett was if at all, slightly better than Dirk (I think Dirk had already surpassed him then anyways)...Lakers were just fatigued after the 3 peat more than anything.


This right here tells me you're just a delusional Dirk homer. There was a pecking order in the league from about 2002-2005 of the league's best players: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, and Kobe in some order. Yeah, someone like a T-Mac or AI snuck in there once or twice, but those were the four most consistently best players in the league the first half of the 2000s. Dirk wasn't one of them. I don't remember anyone saying 2001-2005 Dirk was better than 2001-2005 Garnett. And you're severely downplaying Finley's ability.

And the Lakers were old after the 3-peat more than anything else. Two of their three best role players, Horry and Fox, were in their 30s. After that, the rest of the recurring characters from the 3-peat just kinda sucked. Devean George, Samaki Walker, Brian Shaw (who was also pretty ancient)...I mean those guys weren't good. They were ok, kind of, but not good. They also lost some of the other best role players from the first and/or second championships (didn't have them for the 3rd championship) by 2003 like Ron Harper, Glen Rice, A.C. Green, and Horace Grant. It just wasn't the same team anymore in 2002-2003, not even close.

[ShaqAttack3234]

And the Lakers were old after the 3-peat more than anything else. Two of their three best role players, Horry and Fox, were in their 30s. After that, the rest of the recurring characters from the 3-peat just kinda sucked. Devean George, Samaki Walker, Brian Shaw (who was also pretty ancient)...I mean those guys weren't good. They were ok, kind of, but not good. They also lost some of the other best role players from the first and/or second championships (didn't have them for the 3rd championship) by 2003 like Ron Harper, Glen Rice, A.C. Green, and Horace Grant. It just wasn't the same team anymore in 2002-2003, not even close.

I have to say that I certainly wouldn't put 2000 AC Green among their best role players. He was pretty much done by 2000 and definitely shouldn't have been starting. I also lost a lot of respect for Rice after 2000. It's one thing that he was declining rapidly due to age and the '99 elbow surgery, but his attitude was terrible. He didn't do the thing he was most known for that well(36.7 3P%, 1.1 3PM), but more importantly he complained about his role and was benched late in games numerous times for not moving without the ball and being a defensive liability. He was still a pretty good scorer, but dropped to 12/4/2 on 41 FG% in the playoffs and picked the worst time to run his mouth about his role during the finals. He never fit into the triangle, which has happened with some other players, but considering everything, I have my doubts he tried as hard as he could have to learn the offense.

I'll compare the 2003 Lakers to the least talented of the 3peat teams the 2000 team and the difference really came down to work ethic and motivation.

Both had obstacles. The 2000 team didn't have Kobe for the first month after the broken hand in preseason, and the 2003 team didn't have Shaq for the first 12 games. Ultimately, the 2000 Lakers went 12-4 without Kobe(12-3 when Shaq played), while the 2003 Lakers went just 5-10 without Shaq.

But the 2000 team also had to learn the triangle, which took a while, but they made up for that with tremendous effort defensively to win early. And that all started with Shaq who had a defensive player of the year caliber season, while in 2003, he was lazy at that end all season. Shaq was also probably 35-40 pounds lighter in 2000, and 28 rather than 31. The last one not being his fault obviously, but with the motivation he had in 2000, he could have probably come close to his 2000 season.

The players had something to prove to Phil in 2000, but he could no longer keep him motivated for an entire regular season. This resulted in an inexcusable 11-19 start with many questioning whether they'd make the playoffs. It took an excellent 31-9 finish to make the playoffs.

While I've covered Kobe's improvement from '00 to '03 and Shaq's decline, the '03 team had a greatly improved Fisher who was a non-factor in 2000. I liked Ron Harper in 2000, but Fisher gave them shooting that Harper didn't. They also had an improved Rick Fox, who like Fisher, had come into his own in 2001 and was more of an all around player than Rice and actually had a better 3 point shooting season than Rice did in 2000. Power forward was weak for both teams.

But the 2003 team solved one problem the '00 team had. The '00 team was the 5th worst 3 point shooting team at 32.9% and had just one 3 point shooter, while the '03 team was the 10th best 3 point shooting team at 35.6% and three, maybe four 3 point shooters.

Another problem was that Fox got injured and wasn't available for the Spurs series, leaving just Devean George, who also got injured.

Horry was also in a shooting slump at the worst time. He often didn't shoot that well for the Lakers, but he went 0/18 on 3s in the Spurs series including missing the shot you'd think he'd make, the potential game-winner in game 5.

And finally, there was now confusion over who "the man" was between Shaq and Kobe. That had happened during 2001, but was sorted out by the second half of the season. It wasn't a feud in 2003, but Kobe had been the first option by default for much of the first month, then they went back to Shaq in December and January, Phil then gave Kobe the freedom in February which ultimately got them going, they switched back to Shaq in March and they kept winning. It was really back and forth, and what made it a tougher decision is that they eventually were winning with both and Kobe's improvement and Shaq declining a bit made it less clear. Ultimately, I thought Kobe shot way too much in the Spurs series firing up 27 shots per game at a slow % while Bowen guarded him well.

The 2003 Lakers laziness put them in a position where they had virtually no margin for error, and as it is, still probably would have won another title if Horry's 3 doesn't rim out in game 5 vs the Spurs, but they could have put themselves in a position where they may have not needed a shot like that.

The 2000 team overachieved by taking the entire season seriously and it carried over in moments of adversity vs Portland and Indiana. The 2003 team coasted at times and tried to flip a switch, they almost succeeded, but there's a valuable lesson in that.

[KG215]

I was just going more off memory of the guys I remembered starting and/or playing 15-20 minutes a game. Don't really remember guys like Green or Rice having big impacts in 2000, to be honest, just know they were part of the rotation. I guess I kind of overstated their significance.

[Mr Know It All]

Some good arguments being brought about here, but I still think the argument Dirk was ever on a STACKED team is a fallacy.

2003: Dirk was a top 10 player yes, Steve Nash was NOT a top 15 player. 18 and 7 on good shooting splits and horrible defense does not equate to top 15 that year, not in my book. He didn't break that ceiling until his Phoenix days where he truly became an elite player (top 15 or top 10). Mind you, I think the 2003 team had a lot of talent offensively, but Dirk was injured in the Western Conference Finals so it is very difficult to fault him or that team for the failure that year.

Just for arguments sake players better than Nash in 2003 (In no order):

Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Tracy Mcgrady
Shawn Marion
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace
Dirk Nowitzki
Stephon Marbury
Amare Stoudamire (Rookie year)
Vince Carter
Steve Francis
Chris Webber

The list could go on even further, that's 17 already clearly better than Nash that year.

2007: Again, it is wrong to say Dirk played with 2 top 15 players, that is flat out wrong. Josh Howard was never a top 15 player, he was a good complimentary scorer at best, and he played good defense when he wanted to. In 2007, he was already becoming a black hole and disrupting the offense in not allowing it to run through Dirk (a big reason the Mavericks did not win that year IMO). I won't even start the list of players better than Josh Howard in 2007.

Fact is, when you talk about STACKED teams (yes we must forever make STACKED capitalized from now on) you are usually referring to All-NBA talent. That is, a team with two or more All-NBA players. For example teams with two or more All-NBAers since 2007:

2012 Heat
2012 Thunder
2012 Clippers
2012 Knicks
2012 Lakers
2011 Lakers
2011 Thunder
2011 Heat
2010 Lakers
2010 Suns
2009 Lakers
2009 Spurs
2009 Nuggets
2008 Celtics
2008 Rockets
2008 Suns

From that list, we can see that All-NBA talent almost always translates to some playoff success (Championship teams from 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012 all had at least two All-NBA players). Only Maverick team to have two was the 2002 team (Dirk and Nash) and the 2003 team (Dirk and Nash). Meaning that Dirk experienced the most success (post-Nash, his and the Mavs best years) without an All-NBA player.

He is a very rare franchise player, and no one in the post-Jordan era has managed to bring his teams to play at such a high level (both regular season and playoffs) with so little All-Star and All-NBA help (Other than Lebron, though he could not win a championship without that help).

[Coffee Black]

I wouldn't call the teams in 03, 04, 05, 07, 08, 09, 10 (nor would I in 06 either). They had some good showing in the playoffs and some pretty bad ones. Never did any of his teams show the characteristics of a stacked team, as seen in the general results in the playoffs.

[noosaman]

Some good arguments being brought about here, but I still think the argument Dirk was ever on a STACKED team is a fallacy.

2003: Dirk was a top 10 player yes, Steve Nash was NOT a top 15 player. 18 and 7 on good shooting splits and horrible defense does not equate to top 15 that year, not in my book. He didn't break that ceiling until his Phoenix days where he truly became an elite player (top 15 or top 10). Mind you, I think the 2003 team had a lot of talent offensively, but Dirk was injured in the Western Conference Finals so it is very difficult to fault him or that team for the failure that year.

Just for arguments sake players better than Nash in 2003 (In no order):

Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Tracy Mcgrady
Shawn Marion
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace
Dirk Nowitzki
Stephon Marbury
Amare Stoudamire (Rookie year)
Vince Carter
Steve Francis
Chris Webber

The list could go on even further, that's 17 already clearly better than Nash that year.

2007: Again, it is wrong to say Dirk played with 2 top 15 players, that is flat out wrong. Josh Howard was never a top 15 player, he was a good complimentary scorer at best, and he played good defense when he wanted to. In 2007, he was already becoming a black hole and disrupting the offense in not allowing it to run through Dirk (a big reason the Mavericks did not win that year IMO). I won't even start the list of players better than Josh Howard in 2007.

Fact is, when you talk about STACKED teams (yes we must forever make STACKED capitalized from now on) you are usually referring to All-NBA talent. That is, a team with two or more All-NBA players. For example teams with two or more All-NBAers since 2007:

2012 Heat
2012 Thunder
2012 Clippers
2012 Knicks
2012 Lakers
2011 Lakers
2011 Thunder
2011 Heat
2010 Lakers
2010 Suns
2009 Lakers
2009 Spurs
2009 Nuggets
2008 Celtics
2008 Rockets
2008 Suns

From that list, we can see that All-NBA talent almost always translates to some playoff success (Championship teams from 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2012 all had at least two All-NBA players). Only Maverick team to have two was the 2002 team (Dirk and Nash) and the 2003 team (Dirk and Nash). Meaning that Dirk experienced the most success (post-Nash, his and the Mavs best years) without an All-NBA player.

He is a very rare franchise player, and no one in the post-Jordan era has managed to bring his teams to play at such a high level (both regular season and playoffs) with so little All-Star and All-NBA help (Other than Lebron, though he could not win a championship without that help).

Nash was pretty damn good in 02-03. I put in bold the guys from your list who I think were better than him.

Also, it cracks me up when people claim Nash is a horrible defensive player. Numbers and live action show that he defends just fine. I don't see people claiming Iverson, Pierce, Webber are horrible defenders even though they were.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I was just going more off memory of the guys I remembered starting and/or playing 15-20 minutes a game. Don't really remember guys like Green or Rice having big impacts in 2000, to be honest, just know they were part of the rotation. I guess I kind of overstated their significance.

No problem, I probably get too **** about certain things that are besides the point anyway. :oldlol:

The 2 role players I really like on the 2000 Lakers were Ron Harper and Robert Horry.

Harper was a big guard(which Phil always liked)who had a significant part in running the offense that first year because he was the one player who knew the triangle. That's also why he was probably very smart moving without the ball, sometimes cutting to the basket for easy baskets off of feeds from Shaq and very alert. He was also a good defensive player. He probably had to play more minutes than I'd want Harper to play at 36 years old, but he was a nice player to have on the team.

Horry was a strange player in that he looked to have all-star potential in the mid 90's with Houston had he improved his ball-handling. He was an athletic forward who had great size for a small forward, was excellent in transition and all over the court defensively. He got Pippen comparisons at this time actually, though I doubt he was ever going to be that good. But strangely, by 2000, when he was just 29 years old and had played the same amount of seasons as Shaq, he looked like an older player and he no longer had those same athletic gifts. My best guess is that bulking up to play power forward prior to the '97-'98 season contributed to this. But he remained a nice role player. He was smart and a good passer, particularly entry passer. He was also a solid team defender and rebounder. While he could no longer capitalize on the shortened 3 point line of his Houston days, he could still stretch the floor a bit at the 4 position, though he rarely shot and didn't shoot a particularly high percentage.

The Lakers peak as far as role players during the 3peat was '01. Fox came into his own that year, and Fisher greatly improved his shooting when he was out with an injury. Horry was still thereand Horace Grant gave them a much needed post defender which allowed him to guard the great 4s in the '01 playoffs doing an excellent job vs Sheed, Webber and Duncan in their primes while Webber and Sheed had dominated the 2000 Lakers.

'02 role players weren't as good since Grant was replaced by Samaki Walker, Fisher shot 36% for the playoffs and a potentially good addition Lindsey Hunter rarely played. But Fox and especially Horry stood out that year. Horry had his best playoff run as a Laker along with all those clutch shots in '02.



2003: Dirk was a top 10 player yes, Steve Nash was NOT a top 15 player. 18 and 7 on good shooting splits and horrible defense does not equate to top 15 that year, not in my book. He didn't break that ceiling until his Phoenix days where he truly became an elite player (top 15 or top 10). Mind you, I think the 2003 team had a lot of talent offensively, but Dirk was injured in the Western Conference Finals so it is very difficult to fault him or that team for the failure that year.

I don't fault Dirk for 2003 because he was injured like you said, and he was playing great in the playoffs before that like he would many more times in his career with classic games such as game 1 vs the Spurs.

But you're underrating Nash. Stats only tell you so much. In the NBA from say '98-'04, perimeter player's numbers weren't as easy to come by and Nash wasn't in the same position to put up numbers as he'd be in Phoenix. Kidd led the NBA that year with "only" 8.9 apg.

Nash played with two 20 ppg players who liked to isolate in Dirk and Finley. And another capable of that in Van Exel who limited Nash's minutes to some extent and also played with him in the backcourt at times.

if you want to look at Nash's numbers, look at him the previous season before the Van Exel trade in 55 games.

19.5 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 7.8 apg, 2.9 TO, 48.8 FG%, 45 3P%(2.2 3PM), 89.5 FT%, 36.9 mpg

Now look at how his numbers dropped after the Mavs acquired Van Exel in his last 27 games.

14.6 ppg, 2.7 rpg, 7.6 apg, 2.7 TO, 46.9 FG%, 46.5 3P%(1.7 3PM), 86.3 FT%, 30 mpg

And in 13 games without Michael Finley, Nash was at abotu 21 ppg and 9 apg on 51 FG% and Dallas was 12-1.

He was all-nba 3rd team each season(which you seem to emphasize below in your post.


Just for arguments sake players better than Nash in 2003 (In no order):

Shaquille O'Neal
Kobe Bryant
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Jason Kidd
Allen Iverson
Paul Pierce
Tracy Mcgrady
Shawn Marion
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace
Dirk Nowitzki
Stephon Marbury
Amare Stoudamire (Rookie year)
Vince Carter
Steve Francis
Chris Webber

The list could go on even further, that's 17 already clearly better than Nash that year.

Not all of those players were better than Nash. These are the only players better than Nash in 2003.

Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Shaquille O'Neal
Tracy McGrady
Kobe Bryant
Jason Kidd
Dirk Nowitzki
Allen Iverson
Chris Webber
Paul Pierce
Jermaine O'Neal
Ray Allen
Ben Wallace

So top 14 for Nash in '03. We have a lot of the same names, but to call some of those players "clearly" better than Nash, or even better is mindblowing.

Rookie Amare was better than '03 Nash? :facepalm Vince Carter when he missed half a season? Marion? And Marbury and Francis were not considered "clearly" better. There were certainly a fair share of people at that time who would have taken either since they were quite popular and many were in awe of their individual ability and athleticism, but I'm not taking either to run my team.

2007: Again, it is wrong to say Dirk played with 2 top 15 players, that is flat out wrong. Josh Howard was never a top 15 player, he was a good complimentary scorer at best, and he played good defense when he wanted to. In 2007, he was already becoming a black hole and disrupting the offense in not allowing it to run through Dirk (a big reason the Mavericks did not win that year IMO). I won't even start the list of players better than Josh Howard in 2007.


Fact is, when you talk about STACKED teams (yes we must forever make STACKED capitalized from now on) you are usually referring to All-NBA talent. That is, a team with two or more All-NBA players. For example teams with two or more All-NBAers since 2007:

No, stacked refers mostly to depth. Portland and Sacramento were the 2 most stacked teams of the early 00's, perhaps the entire decade and the Kings had 1 all-nba player(though Peja later made one in '04 too), Portland had zero. Though both teams did have at least 2 players around top 20 caliber at least and ridiculous depth.


Meaning that Dirk experienced the most success (post-Nash, his and the Mavs best years) without an All-NBA player.

Which may tell you that having an all-nba player isn't as important as you're making it out to be, but rather a well rounded team, which is what Dirk has had his most success with in '06, '07 and '11.

The '07 Mavs had 2 borderline all-star caliber players alongside Dirk in Howard and Terry. Howard actually made the all-star team as a solid scorer who could create his shot, shoot and defend. He averaged almost 20. Terry never made an all-star team, but he's been a very good shooter, a scorer who has averaged close to 20 ppg, even off the bench and a capable ball-handler and playmaker who can run screen/rolls and play some PG. He's also been clutch. I can't call him a legit all-star, but that sounds borderline to me and better than some that have actually made all-star games.

Both were obviously legit scoring threats, Stackhouse was certainly another scoring threat and I'd say Harris was due to his quickness. All of them averaged double figures. That's a lot of firepower on the perimeter and 4 scorers to complement an offensive player of Dirk's caliber is more than enough.

So offensive talent around him wasn't a question in '07, and Dallas also surrounded him a top 5 defense and they were an elite rebounding team. So I consider that a well rounded supporting cast. I don't think they were missing anything. They were an improved team that had nearly won a championship the year before, but had essentially given it away. That tells me that personnel wasn't the problem.

The problem with the '07 Mavs was that they ran into the worst possible opponent, Dirk had a terrible series, which is not going to happen 9 times out of 10 and their coach contributed to the loss by panicking and going small ball to match a barely .500 Warriors team rather than playing how the Mavs played to win 67 games.

[Locked_Up_Tonight]

Shaq, just to nitpick on a couple of points:

The Dick with Nash was not an iso player. He developed that more when Nash left. Dirk during that time was a pick and pop player. Nellie never really wanted any of his players to be "ball dominant" so Dirk/Fin/ were not those kind of guys. Had Nellie been smart starting in 2000 he should have focused the entire offense around Dirk (because Dirk was that kind of revolutionary type offensive player), but Nellie wouldn't do that. He allowed Dirk to get his somewhat but played "merry go round" shot distribution with the team. And it was to the detriment of them. Dirk didn't really expand his game until Nash left. He knew that he would shoulder the load offensively and he didn't have the creator of Nash to get him some easy looks. So the 04-05 season was when he started to become the iso specialist the elbow and free throw line extended area.

And the 07 series wasn't so much that Avery played smallball (he did)... The Mavs won 67 games with Damp and Diop playing center for 48 minutes. The playoffs rolled around and Damp was shelved and Dirk played center for at least 20+ minutes a game. What derailed them was the matchups either way. During the regular seaswon the Mavs could not match up with GS ebven with Damp. Nelson made Damp useless. He would just leave Damp out on an island, knowing he couldn't catch, finish, score. The Mavs were playing 4 on 5 offensively. And that guy who would sag off of Damp would basically shade Dirk all night. So Nellie put a small (Barnes/Jackson) to guard Dirk on the catch, and play another quasi small forward to help with rortations. And Nellie knew the Mavs didn't have enough firepower or shooting prowesss to make up for Dirk being double teamed.

Josh Howard shot well, but:
Terry: 42% FG/28% 3P
Stack: 35% FG/36% 3P
Devin Harris: 49% FG/ 20% 3P
Devean George: 20% FG/ 25% 3P
Greg Buckner: 0% FG/0% 3P

And the centers: Diop and Damp shot 17 FGs over the 6 games. So they got nothing from the centers at all, and their top 5 guards all couldn't shoot at all with all of them playing all 6 games.

Oh and offense was a huge problem for the Mavs in 07. Outside of Dirk and Terry no one could score with any consistency/efficiency.

Josh Howard was a scorer on paper. But nearly ALL of Josh Howard's points came during first quarters. Avery would constantly run stuff for him to get him involved early but by the second quarter he would just disappear. He would get his 15 points and average maybe 1 point for every 4th quarter. (And I am not making that up or exaggerating....) It was like he would "zone out" during games and couldn't be counted on at all in second halves.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Shaq, just to nitpick on a couple of points:

The Dick with Nash was not an iso player. He developed that more when Nash left. Dirk during that time was a pick and pop player. Nellie never really wanted any of his players to be "ball dominant" so Dirk/Fin/ were not those kind of guys. Had Nellie been smart starting in 2000 he should have focused the entire offense around Dirk (because Dirk was that kind of revolutionary type offensive player), but Nellie wouldn't do that. He allowed Dirk to get his somewhat but played "merry go round" shot distribution with the team. And it was to the detriment of them. Dirk didn't really expand his game until Nash left. He knew that he would shoulder the load offensively and he didn't have the creator of Nash to get him some easy looks. So the 04-05 season was when he started to become the iso specialist the elbow and free throw line extended area

I disagree to some extent, Dirk definitely spotted up quite a bit behind the 3 point line as a trailer, and he and Nash were known as an excellent pick and roll/pick and pop combo, but Dirk would already often put the ball on the floor and create his own shot. His turnaround jumper was already in the arsenal.

I don't disagree that he got better, though.


And the 07 series wasn't so much that Avery played smallball (he did)... The Mavs won 67 games with Damp and Diop playing center for 48 minutes. The playoffs rolled around and Damp was shelved and Dirk played center for at least 20+ minutes a game. What derailed them was the matchups either way. During the regular seaswon the Mavs could not match up with GS ebven with Damp. Nelson made Damp useless. He would just leave Damp out on an island, knowing he couldn't catch, finish, score. The Mavs were playing 4 on 5 offensively. And that guy who would sag off of Damp would basically shade Dirk all night. So Nellie put a small (Barnes/Jackson) to guard Dirk on the catch, and play another quasi small forward to help with rortations. And Nellie knew the Mavs didn't have enough firepower or shooting prowesss to make up for Dirk being double teamed.

Josh Howard shot well, but:
Terry: 42% FG/28% 3P
Stack: 35% FG/36% 3P
Devin Harris: 49% FG/ 20% 3P
Devean George: 20% FG/ 25% 3P
Greg Buckner: 0% FG/0% 3P

And the centers: Diop and Damp shot 17 FGs over the 6 games. So they got nothing from the centers at all, and their top 5 guards all couldn't shoot at all with all of them playing all 6 games.

I didn't mean to make it out to be all Dirk's fault. The rest of the team except for Howard clearly didn't play up to their usual standard as well, but I wouldn't blame the center position much because how many teams literally have offensive threats from every position? Many teams have won championships without having that.


Josh Howard was a scorer on paper. But nearly ALL of Josh Howard's points came during first quarters. Avery would constantly run stuff for him to get him involved early but by the second quarter he would just disappear. He would get his 15 points and average maybe 1 point for every 4th quarter. (And I am not making that up or exaggerating....) It was like he would "zone out" during games and couldn't be counted on at all in second halves.

Yeah, I remember Howard being known for his first quarter production, this was brought up for years during Mavs games, but with Dirk and Terry to handle a lot of the late game scoring, I don't view this as such a bad thing. And Stackhouse was a legit scorer himself. Harris wasn't a real option in big moments, but throughout games, he could score with his quickness.

I think the Mavs were equipped to win a championship, but they ran into a terrible match up and just didn't respond to adversity. I think the '07 team was clearly an improved version of the '06 team that had the championship and lost it. I have no doubt they had what it took to potentially beat either the Spurs or Suns. It was no guarantee since I think these 3 teams were all very close, but head and shoulders above everyone else.