Guys who were the best offensive + defensive player on a championship team?

[fpliii]

Consensus:
67 Wilt*
71 Kareem*
80 Kareem*
91 Jordan
92 Jordan
93 Jordan
94 Hakeem*
95 Hakeem*
00 Shaq*
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Duncan*
05 Duncan
07 Duncan
09 Kobe
12 LeBron

Currently Being Discussed:
62 Russell
70 Reed
72 Wilt
73 Frazier
77 Walton
78 Hayes
82 Kareem
83 Moses
85 Kareem
86 Bird
96 Jordan
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Duncan
08 Garnett
10 Kobe

Need More Opinions:
49 Mikan
50 Mikan
52 Mikan
53 Mikan
54 Mikan
55 Schayes
58 Pettit
63 Russell
64 Russell
65 Russell
74 Havlicek
70 Frazier
74 Cowens
76 Cowens
81 Bird
01 Kobe
02 Kobe

* = unanimous

I've put together a table of the results (currently live through Post #176 by INDI @9:22PM EST):

link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdFNEQm1STW9CQmhNVXFFcHc5MkQ3O VE)

Key (usernames on left, player seasons on top):
GREEN = strong approve
YELLOW = approve
ORANGE = disapprove
RED = strong disapprove
BLUE = no stance
(for the colorblind/visually-impaired, I've entered numbers 3,1,-1,3 in the cells for the categories above respectively, with no stance currently blank...the numbers don't mean much, but if you click the number and season, e.g. '95 Hakeem', it'll give you a sum of the numbers in the column)

I've counted everybody's votes so far who's posted in this thread, so if you weren't being serious, be sure to reply (don't edit your post, I'm not going to look through the thread again). If you mentioned a player and named the season (for guys with multiple cases) it's a strong approve/disapprove. If you just give a name, I (weak) approved you for all of that guy's years. Let me know if there are any problems with the entries in your row.

[RRR3]

Hakeem
Jordan
Duncan
LeBron

[TylerOO]

LeBron and jordan

[EnoughSaid]

You can make a case for Shaq as the best defensive player on the three peat Lakers.

[The Choken One]

I might be misunderstanding your question...correct me if I am.

But LeBron last year? Wasn't a great defender, but was the best on Miami. Obviously was the best offensive player.

Prior to that... I'd go Timmy Duncan.

[DetroitPistonFan]

Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Hakeem Olajuwon
Tim Duncan

[RRR3]

I might be misunderstanding your question...correct me if I am.

But LeBron last year? Wasn't a great defender, but was the best on Miami. Obviously was the best offensive player.

Prior to that... I'd go Timmy Duncan.
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[The Choken One]

:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:
DOn't gimmie that. He's not a great defender. Timmy D is a much better example.

[fpliii]

I might be misunderstanding your question...correct me if I am.

But LeBron last year? Wasn't a great defender, but was the best on Miami. Obviously was the best offensive player.

Prior to that... I'd go Timmy Duncan.

haven't really thought about LeBron, but the two guys I have in mind are:

94 Hakeem Olajuwon (likely 95 as well in my book, but a handful of people give Clyde the edge)
03 Tim Duncan (in 99 Admiral was the defensive anchor, and in 05/07 arguably Manu and definitely Parker respectively meant more to the offense IMO)

[RRR3]

DOn't gimmie that. He's not a great defender. Timmy D is a much better example.
:biggums: :biggums: :biggums:

[dunksby]

Kareem
Wilt
Duncan
Hakeem

[Harison]

Kareem '71, '80

Bird '86

Garnett '08

Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan already mentioned.

[LongLiveTheKing]

Lebron!

[Nash]

Haters not mentioning Lebron :lol

Of course Lebron should be in this.

[Harison]

Forgot one more:

Moses Malone '83

[SourPatchKids]

I might be misunderstanding your question...correct me if I am.

But LeBron last year? Wasn't a great defender, but was the best on Miami. Obviously was the best offensive player.

Prior to that... I'd go Timmy Duncan.
http://www.forumsextreme.com/images2/sFi_hammer2.gif

[The Choken One]

haven't really thought about LeBron, but the two guys I have in mind are:

94 Hakeem Olajuwon (likely 95 as well in my book, but a handful of people give Clyde the edge)
03 Tim Duncan (in 99 Admiral was the defensive anchor, and in 05/07 arguably Manu and definitely Parker respectively meant more to the offense IMO)
Didn't get to watch Hakeem. Duncan in 03 definitely, and honestly in 05, too. Parker was offensive MVP in 07.

[lilgodfather1]

I'm not familiar with the early 90's, but wouldn't Pippen the best perimiter defender of all time be the Bulls best defender, and possibly in the later 90's Rodman could be in the running (although was past his prime obviously).

I realise that Jordan won DPOY one year, but i'm not sure which year and don't really want to do the research to find out if they won the title or not that season.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Kevin Garnett

[Pushxx]

Kareem '71, '80

Bird '86

Garnett '08

Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan already mentioned.

Pierce was better offensively in '08 and McHale was better defensively in '86.

[fpliii]

Didn't get to watch Hakeem. Duncan in 03 definitely, and honestly in 05, too. Parker was offensive MVP in 07.

I agree about 05, but I wanted to form a consensus list here...I don't think anybody will argue the two I mentioned


I'm not familiar with the early 90's, but wouldn't Pippen the best perimiter defender of all time be the Bulls best defender, and possibly in the later 90's Rodman could be in the running (although was past his prime obviously).

I realise that Jordan won DPOY one year, but i'm not sure which year and don't really want to do the research to find out if they won the title or not that season.

88 I think (might've been 87?)

chasing23 did a great piece on those Bulls teams earlier this year:

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/

[Harison]

Pierce was better offensively in '08 and McHale was better defensively in '86.

Nope, not in the Playoffs.

[lilgodfather1]

I agree about 05, but I wanted to form a consensus list here...I don't think anybody will argue the two I mentioned



88 I think (might've been 87?)

chasing23 did a great piece on those Bulls teams earlier this year:

http://chasing23.com/did-scottie-pippen-always-guard-the-other-teams-best-player/
In that very article it says that Scottie was guarding Magic in the finals... changed momentum... etc, and then he lists MJ as the primary defender of Magic, and uses MJ's 8 "assigned" to the best offensive player of the opposition to claim he was the best defender on the Bulls. To me that means that Scottie did the defensive job on MJ giving him the 8 to 7 edge in Bulls assignments of the best offensive players of the opposition, and not MJ having the 8 to 7 edge.

Of course that's not a huge difference, but it suggests bias to me, and therefore I have to take everything else with a grain of salt. I don't remember the 90's as I was born in 91 (maybe i'm good luck for the Bulls?), but the games I have seen of the Bulls suggests Pippen was the defensie anchor of the Bulls, and he was dominant defensively as MJ was offensively.

Not that I can prove MJ was not the most important defender on the Bulls championships, but it certainly couldn't have been clear cut.

[rmt]

03 Tim Duncan (in 99 Admiral was the defensive anchor, and in 05/07 arguably Manu and definitely Parker respectively meant more to the offense IMO)


Didn't get to watch Hakeem. Duncan in 03 definitely, and honestly in 05, too. Parker was offensive MVP in 07.

1998-99 Regular Season

Duncan 21.7 pts / 11.4 rebs / 2.5 blks
DRob 15.8 pts / 10.0 rebs / 2.4 blks

1998-99 Playoffs

Duncan 23.2 pts / 11.5 rebs / 2.6 blks
DRob 15.6 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.4 blks


2004-05 Regular Season

Duncan 20.3 pts / 2.7 assts
Parker 16.6 pts / 6.1 assts
Manu 16.0 / 3.9 assts

2004-05 Playoffs

Duncan 23.6 pts / 2.7 assts
Manu 20.8 pts / 4.2 assts
Parker 17.2 pts / 4.3 assts

2006-07 Regular Season

Duncan 20.0 pts / 3.4 assts
Parker 18.6 pts / 5.5 assts
Manu 16.5 pts / 3.5 assts

2006-07 Playoffs

Duncan 22.2 pts / 3.3 assts
Parker 20.8 pts / 5.8 assts
Manu 16.7 pts / 3.7 assts

[fpliii]

1998-99 Regular Season

Duncan 21.7 pts / 11.4 rebs / 2.5 blks
DRob 15.8 pts / 10.0 rebs / 2.4 blks

1998-99 Playoffs

Duncan 23.2 pts / 11.5 rebs / 2.6 blks
DRob 15.6 pts / 9.9 rebs / 2.4 blks


2004-05 Regular Season

Duncan 20.3 pts / 2.7 assts
Parker 16.6 pts / 6.1 assts
Manu 16.0 / 3.9 assts

2004-05 Playoffs

Duncan 23.6 pts / 2.7 assts
Manu 20.8 pts / 4.2 assts
Parker 17.2 pts / 4.3 assts

2006-07 Regular Season

Duncan 20.0 pts / 3.4 assts
Parker 18.6 pts / 5.5 assts
Manu 16.5 pts / 3.5 assts

2006-07 Playoffs

Duncan 22.2 pts / 3.3 assts
Parker 20.8 pts / 5.8 assts
Manu 16.7 pts / 3.7 assts

I have no problem with saying Duncan was the best player on both sides of the ball in 05, but you won't find a consensus (because many contend Ginobili was a bigger force in every series except the WCF); regarding the other two years:

99 - I'm basing this primarily on my own impression from watching them that season/playoffs...here's a decent breakdown:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239755

07 - I give the slight edge to Parker, but have no problem if you choose Duncan:

1st round (vs DEN)

Duncan - 20.2/5.4 on .473/---/.591 shooting
Parker - 18.2/6.8 on .442/.333/.875 shooting

West Semis (vs PHO)

Duncan - 26.8/1.2 on .573/---/.614 shooting
Parker - 20.8/5.7 on .451/.000/.697 shooting

WCF (vs UTA)

Duncan - 21.8/3.2 on .576/---/.717 shooting
Parker - 20.2/6.8 on .481/.667/.658 shooting

Finals (vs CLE)

Duncan - 18.3/3.8 on .446/---/.625 shooting
Parker - 24.5/3.3 on .568/.571/.526 shooting

as I said above though, in this thread I'm really looking to target only consensus picks

[97 bulls]

Kareem '71, '80

Bird '86

Garnett '08

Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan already mentioned.
Larry Bird? Hell no. Both Mchale and Johnson and Parrish and Ainge were all better.

Garnett wasnt the best offensive player on the '08 Celtics, Pierce was

[fpliii]

Larry Bird? Hell no. Both Mchale and Johnson and Parrish and Ainge were all better.

Garnett wasnt the best offensive player on the '08 Celtics, Pierce was

hey bro

since it's your area of expertise, who in your opinion was the best offensive/defensive player on each of the Bulls teams (championship years mostly, but I'm actually interested in hearing your thoughts for every year from 84-98)

[fpliii]

does everybody agree about 71 Kareem?

also, is anybody opposed to adding 95 Hakeem and 05 Duncan to the list in the OP?

[97 bulls]

hey bro

since it's your area of expertise, who in your opinion was the best offensive/defensive player on each of the Bulls teams (championship years mostly, but I'm actually interested in hearing your thoughts for every year from 84-98)
I vaguely remember the Bulls from 84. But id say Jordan was the Bulls best defender from the time he was drafted to about 92. Then he and Pippen were even. Up until 96. Then Pippen assumed the role. I feel jordan was still a great Defender through 98, but he no longer needed to exert so much energy with Ron Harper there.

[JohnnySic]

Kareem '71, '80

Bird '86

Garnett '08

Duncan, Hakeem, Jordan already mentioned.
I'd go with Dennis Johnson as the best defender on that team.

[fpliii]

I vaguely remember the Bulls from 84. But id say Jordan was the Bulls best defender from the time he was drafted to about 92. Then he and Pippen were even. Up until 96. Then Pippen assumed the role. I feel jordan was still a great Defender through 98, but he no longer needed to exert so much energy with Ron Harper there.

hm, so who are your picks for each of the championship seasons? it sounds like:

91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan/Pippen
93 - Jordan/Pippen
96 - Jordan/Pippen
97 - Pippen
98 - Pippen

is that correct?

[ShaqAttack3234]

Off the top of my head?

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, possibly 1982 Kareem (Cooper enters the discussion for '82 defensively)
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan (Robinson has an argument for '99 defensively, though, and Manu was arguably the Spurs best offensive player in the '05 playoffs, but in general, I'd build my offense around Duncan, which the Spurs did)
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
Possibly 2008 Garnett (Debatable whether he was better than Pierce offensively)
2012 Lebron

There are other debatable years such as Reed/Frazier in '70. I might lean towards Reed, he was their first option and all-defenisve 1st team, but was he definitely better than DeBuscherre and Frazier defensively or Frazier offensively?

Then there's possibly Frazier in '73, but was he better than DeBuscherre defensively? I'm not convinced.

Elvin Hayes in '78 is debatable, but we can't forget about Bob Dandridge

I suppose Kareem is still in the discussion for '85, but an excellent case can be made for Magic offensively by this point and Cooper's argument defensively probably got stronger

Kobe also has an argument in '09, he stepped up his defense in the '09 playoffs, though he was mostly an individual defender, his help defense on Howard was impressive. But did he make a bigger impact than Gasol's length defensively? And Gasol also did an excellent job on Howard defensively, and Ariza is in the discussion defensively.



Bird '86

Bird wasn't the best defender on that team. I'd probably go with McHale, but there was DJ, Walton and Parish as well.


Forgot one more:

Moses Malone '83

Nah, that was probably either Bobby Jones or Mo Cheeks.

[fpliii]

Off the top of my head?

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, possibly 1982 Kareem (Cooper enters the discussion for '82 defensively)
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
1999, 2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan (Robinson has an argument for '99 defensively, though, and Manu was arguably the Spurs best offensive player in the '05 playoffs, but in general, I'd build my offense around Duncan, which the Spurs did)
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
Possibly 2008 Garnett (Debatable whether he was better than Pierce offensively)
2012 Lebron

There are other debatable years such as Reed/Frazier in '70. I might lean towards Reed, he was their first option and all-defenisve 1st team, but was he definitely better than DeBuscherre and Frazier defensively or Frazier offensively?

Then there's possibly Frazier in '73, but was he better than DeBuscherre defensively? I'm not convinced.

Elvin Hayes in '78 is debatable, but we can't forget about Bob Dandridge

I suppose Kareem is still in the discussion for '85, but an excellent case can be made for Magic offensively by this point and Cooper's argument defensively probably got stronger

Kobe also has an argument in '09, he stepped up his defense in the '09 playoffs, though he was mostly an individual defender, his help defense on Howard was impressive. But did he make a bigger impact than Gasol's length defensively? And Gasol also did an excellent job on Howard defensively, and Ariza is in the discussion defensively.



Bird wasn't the best defender on that team. I'd probably go with McHale, but there was DJ, Walton and Parish as well.



Nah, that was probably either Bobby Jones or Mo Cheeks.

if you had to restrict your list to guys for which there's no argument for other players, what does it look like? not that I agree/disagree, but I want to try to put together a definitive list that won't have any detractors

[Overdrive]

Threepeat Shaq
Repeat Hakeem
09 Kobe
12 Lebron

I don't agree with Duncan for 1999

[OldSchoolBBall]

Jordan '91-'93
Duncan '03, '05 (and some would say '99)
Shaq '00, '01 (in terms of defensive impact)
Lebron '12
Kobe '09
KAJ '71, '80
Wilt '67

[97 bulls]

hm, so who are your picks for each of the championship seasons? it sounds like:

91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan/Pippen
93 - Jordan/Pippen
96 - Jordan/Pippen
97 - Pippen/Jordan
98 - Pippen

is that correct?
Thats about right except the bolded. It was really a 1/A,B type thing most of their career during the Dynasty

[ShaqAttack3234]

if you had to restrict your list to guys for which there's no argument for other players, what does it look like? not that I agree/disagree, but I want to try to put together a definitive list that won't have any detractors

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, 1982 Kareem
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan
2012 Lebron

Some might question '82 Kareem, but I'm not sure Michael Cooper in less than 30 mpg topped Kareem as a 7'3" presence and the 3rd leading shot blocker in the regular season with almost 3 per game and 3+ in the playoffs.

It's your call, perhaps by me needing to explain that one, it might not be clear.


Jordan '91-'93
Duncan '03, '05 (and some would say '99)
Shaq '00, '01 (in terms of defensive impact)
Lebron '12
Kobe '09
KAJ '71, '80
Wilt '67

2 questions, who was better than Shaq defensively on the '02 Lakers? Shaq wasn't quite as mobile as '00 and '01, but the Lakers were first in opponents FG% and first in opponents FG% in the paint in '02.

And who was better than Duncan offensively in '07?

[Jacks3]

Odom/Ariza were the best defenders on the 09 Laker team.

[Harison]

Possibly 2008 Garnett (Debatable whether he was better than Pierce offensively)

Pierce was better in the Regular season, Garnett was better in the Playoffs, and thats what matters in the Championship.

Lets see, KG was leading in '08 Playoffs in points, much better efficiency, much better in the 4Q and in the clutch.



Bird wasn't the best defender on that team. I'd probably go with McHale, but there was DJ, Walton and Parish as well.

'86 Playoffs:

Larry Bird: 103 DRtg, 1.6 DWS, 18.0 DRB%
Kevin McHale: 105 DRtg, 1.2 DWS, 15.0 DRB%
Danny Ainge: 105 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 8.5 DRB%
Dennis Johnson: 106 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 7.6 DRB%
Robert Parish: 104 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 18.5 DRB%

Walton was a bench player.

McHale did only one thing better - blocks, Parish - in blocks and minor edge in DRB, Ainge and DJ - steals.

Its obvious it was a team effort, but its also obvious that Bird had a slight overall edge over everyone else in D.

[Harison]

Nah, that was probably either Bobby Jones or Mo Cheeks.

Are you serious? Moses blows Jones and Cheeks out of the water across defensive stats. Unless you imply it was intangibles of a guard (!) and PF, which impacted defense more than a center could.

[CJ Mustard]

:oldlol: @ Pierce being a better offensive player than KG in 08. His ONLY possible argument is that he was a (slightly) better scorer than KG IN THE REGULAR SEASON. And even then, he only averaged less than a point higher than KG and did it on a much lower percentage.

In the playoffs, Pierce has no argument at all. KG averaged more points on a higher percentage. Not to mention there's more to offense than scoring, and KG is by far the better overall offensive player as well.

Someone please give me one reasonable argument for Pierce being the Celtics best offensive player in 2008.

[ThunderStruk022]

I'd say Jordan was for at least the '91 and '92 championships and I think he has a case for '93 as well. But it may not be by a very big margin during any of the first 3-peat years for you to say, without a doubt, he was the best defensive player. Offense was obvious.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Pierce was better in the Regular season, Garnett was better in the Playoffs, and thats what matters in the Championship.

Lets see, KG was leading in '08 Playoffs in points, much better efficiency, much better in the 4Q and in the clutch.

I said it was debatable because many would call Pierce the better scorer, although KG was still at least as much of the 1st option. Pierce was also important as a playmaker, though KG was an excellent passer.

I don't think it's unreasonable to call them debatable as offensive players. KG was clearly their best player overall, though.


'86 Playoffs:

Larry Bird: 103 DRtg, 1.6 DWS, 18.0 DRB%
Kevin McHale: 105 DRtg, 1.2 DWS, 15.0 DRB%
Danny Ainge: 105 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 8.5 DRB%
Dennis Johnson: 106 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 7.6 DRB%
Robert Parish: 104 DRtg, 1.1 DWS, 18.5 DRB%

Walton was a bench player.

McHale did only one thing better - blocks, Parish - in blocks and minor edge in DRB, Ainge and DJ - steals.

Its obvious it was a team effort, but its also obvious that Bird had a slight overall edge over everyone else in D.

:facepalm Defensive Rating for individuals and defensive win shares? These are absolutely horrible stats that are estimates.

If they were based on play by play data, +/- or how their defensive assignments fared, I'd respect them more, even though those could still be flawed, but they're not.

I can't understand how anyone could consider these stats useful after reading basketball-reference's explanation for how they're calculated.

McHale wasn't only better than Bird at blocking shots, he was a much better individual defender. He was the guy shutting down Nique in the '86 ECSF, not Bird. DJ was also not just better at steals, he was also a better individual defender.

And shot blocking isn't a minor difference either.

I'm not one of those who think Bird was a bad defender. Qiote the contrary, his help/team defense was excellent, whether it was anticipation in general, playing the passing lanes, making the proper rotations and going straight up to challenge shots inside.

But he was not the best defender on the Celtics.


Are you serious? Moses blows Jones and Cheeks out of the water across defensive stats. Unless you imply it was intangibles of a guard (!) and PF, which impacted defense more than a center could.

:oldlol: Defensive stats? The same garbage defensive win shares and defensive rating you used before that led to an incorrect conclusion?

Moses wasn't some proven defensive rankings. His Houston teams were always below average without exceptions and on multiple occasions the worst/second worst defensive team.

It was only when he joined a Philly team that was already elite defensively that he was on good defensive teams.

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

:oldlol: @ Pierce being a better offensive player than KG in 08. His ONLY possible argument is that he was a (slightly) better scorer than KG IN THE REGULAR SEASON. And even then, he only averaged less than a point higher than KG and did it on a much lower percentage.

In the playoffs, Pierce has no argument at all. KG averaged more points on a higher percentage. Not to mention there's more to offense than scoring, and KG is by far the better overall offensive player as well.

Someone please give me one reasonable argument for Pierce being the Celtics best offensive player in 2008.

He won the Finals MVP and was carried off court and rolled out in a wheelchair.

[fpliii]

Thats about right except the bolded. It was really a 1/A,B type thing most of their career during the Dynasty

what about Rodman in 96/97?


1967 Wilt
1971, 1980, 1982 Kareem
1974 Havlicek
1977 Walton
1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan
1994, 1995 Hakeem
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
2003, 2005, 2007 Duncan
2012 Lebron

Some might question '82 Kareem, but I'm not sure Michael Cooper in less than 30 mpg topped Kareem as a 7'3" presence and the 3rd leading shot blocker in the regular season with almost 3 per game and 3+ in the playoffs.

It's your call, perhaps by me needing to explain that one, it might not be clear.

thanks, I'm gonna go through now and add more guys to the OP


I'd say Jordan was for at least the '91 and '92 championships and I think he has a case for '93 as well. But it may not be by a very big margin during any of the first 3-peat years for you to say, without a doubt, he was the best defensive player. Offense was obvious.

97 Bulls agree about 91, but he has Pippen as a co-leader on defense in 92 and 93

maybe you guys can discuss this in this thread, it would be a valuable discussion

[JaggerCommaMick]

I might be misunderstanding your question...correct me if I am.

But LeBron last year? Wasn't a great defender, but was the best on Miami. Obviously was the best offensive player.

Prior to that... I'd go Timmy Duncan.



This looks like a bloke mad that Lebron fits the criteria and Kobe dont.

Lebron >>>> Kobe mate. Learn to deal.

[ILLsmak]

You can make a case for Shaq as the best defensive player on the three peat Lakers.

Yes, but people have this belief that Shaq wasn't a defensive force cuz he didn't block 4 shots a game.

-Smak

[Vertical-24]

Kobe in his 09 run, though Trevor Ariza has a case for best defender. Still give advantage to Kobe over Pau and Bynum

[fpliii]

Yes, but people have this belief that Shaq wasn't a defensive force cuz he didn't block 4 shots a game.

-Smak

I think Shaq fits the bill in 2000, but in 01 and 02 Kobe has a case on either end (not that I give him the edge, but again, I'm looking for consensus picks here)

a couple of people have Horry as a defensive pick as well

[Harison]

I said it was debatable because many would call Pierce the better scorer, although KG was still at least as much of the 1st option. Pierce was also important as a playmaker, though KG was an excellent passer.

I don't think it's unreasonable to call them debatable as offensive players. KG was clearly their best player overall, though.

Nope, there is no argument here. Outside of minor edge in assists, Pierce was worse at everything else.



:facepalm Defensive Rating for individuals and defensive win shares? These are absolutely horrible stats that are estimates.

Its a bad stat in a cross-team comparison, its a good comparison within a team. Just because you dont like advanced stats, doesnt mean they are bad if context is right.



McHale wasn't only better than Bird at blocking shots, he was a much better individual defender. He was the guy shutting down Nique in the '86 ECSF, not Bird. DJ was also not just better at steals, he was also a better individual defender.

And shot blocking isn't a minor difference either.

I'm not one of those who think Bird was a bad defender. Qiote the contrary, his help/team defense was excellent, whether it was anticipation in general, playing the passing lanes, making the proper rotations and going straight up to challenge shots inside.

But he was not the best defender on the Celtics.

Obviously McHale wasnt much better individual defender, he was better at it, while Bird was better overall defender.

And :facepalm even mentioning bench player as a more impactful at Celtics D.



:oldlol: Defensive stats? The same garbage defensive win shares and defensive rating you used before that led to an incorrect conclusion?

Moses wasn't some proven defensive rankings. His Houston teams were always below average without exceptions and on multiple occasions the worst/second worst defensive team.

It was only when he joined a Philly team that was already elite defensively that he was on good defensive teams.

You dismiss center who was much better at almost everything defensively, and mention guard as more impactful? :facepalm

Dont like DRTG and Defensive win shares which Moses dominated? How about 28.2 DRB% vs 13.1 DRB% vs 6.3 DRB%? Or this stat doesnt matter as well? Mo did only one thing better - steals, Jones a minor edge in steals and blocks.

There is no question Moses was more impactful on D than anyone else in '83 Phily.

[ILLsmak]

I think Shaq fits the bill in 2000, but in 01 and 02 Kobe has a case on either end (not that I give him the edge, but again, I'm looking for consensus picks here)

a couple of people have Horry as a defensive pick as well

I won't disagree. Speaking purely of 2000. Although I think Shaq was a huge d impact player in the other years as well. I know it's a tired argument.

-Smak

[fpliii]

I won't disagree. Speaking purely of 2000. Although I think Shaq was a huge d impact player in the other years as well. I know it's a tired argument.

-Smak

does anybody in this thread have any thoughts on 01 and 02 Shaq?

[JaggerCommaMick]

Kobe in his 09 run, though Trevor Ariza has a case for best defender. Still give advantage to Kobe over Pau and Bynum


Kobe refuses to take charges and dont cover the likes of Durant and Pierce in the playoffs. But yeah, hes a defensive stud, mate. Rip Hamilton averaged 22 in a finals against him, but hes a stud.

Any lie is acceptable when youre desperate to put Kobe closer to Jordan and ahead of Lebron.

Laughin me arse off at "Kobe great defender".

Against who? When? He aint guard anyone in the playoffs but Raja Bell and JJ Reddick. When he even guards Rip Hamilton he gets torched. He dont go near Carmelo, Durant, Pierce.

Smh, chaps.

[MiamiThrice]

Since Jordan retired..

12 LeBron
07 Duncan
05 Duncan
03 Duncan
02 Shaq
01 Shaq
00 Shaq
99 Duncan

LeBron/Duncan is a no brainer. Shaq was more important on the three peat Lakers than Kobe as he was the anchor and noone dared drive against him. Noone could post him up either. He effected all 5 of the opposing players, not just 1 which was the case with Kobe.

Edit: Actually Shaq is even more of a no-brainer than Duncan who had Bowen on his team who was easily superior to Kobe defensively. For both situations the bigman effects all, while the perimeter defender can only shut down one guy.

[BEAST Griffin]

Since Jordan retired..

12 LeBron
05 Duncan
03 Duncan
02 Shaq
01 Shaq
00 Shaq
99 Duncan

LeBron/Duncan is a no brainer. Shaq was more important on the three peat Lakers than Kobe as he was the anchor and noone dared drive against him. Noone could post him up either. He effected all 5 of the opposing players, not just 1 which was the case with Kobe.

Meh. If you consider Duncan's offensive rebounding and passing out of the low post and not just scoring he's still the best offensive player on the Spurs in 2007.

[MiamiThrice]

Meh. If you consider Duncan's offensive rebounding and passing out of the low post and not just scoring he's still the best offensive player on the Spurs in 2007.

Yeah I have no problem with that, I'd agree with you after thinking it over.

[pauk]

The unquestionable best offensive & defensive players on championship teams:

1967 Wilt
1971, 1980 Kareem
1994, 1995 Hakeem
2000, 2001, 2002 Shaq
2003 Duncan
2012 Lebron

Right out of my head i know those are the only ones you cant question the slightest bit...

1982 Kareem i question because of defensively Michael Cooper who started playing his DPOY defense starting from 1982 (where he was 1st all-defensive team and Kareem wasnt) and offensively Magic Johnson (points + assists = offense), not saying that Cooper was better defensively or that Magic was better offensively, but that it might have been a tie and that Kareem did not significantly separate himself from Magic offensively....

1991, 1992, 1993 Jordan i question because of defensively Scottie Pippen, not saying that Pippen was better defensively but that i feel Jordan did not separate himself from Pippen in that department imo, some could argue actually that Pippen was a better defender due to his extra versatility.

1999 Duncan i question because of defensively Robinson...

2005 & 2007 Duncan i question because of offensively Parker (1 point less with more assists) & Ginobili (who per 36 was their best scorer)...

1977 Walton i question because of offensively Maurice Lucas, who averaged more points, he was the same or better offensively...

[StateOfMind12]

2009 Kobe, I'm not sure who one could argue was a better defender than him on his team.

He was the one taking on the great defensive players. I remember in the WCF when Melo was torching Ariza, the Lakers ended up switching Kobe on him and Melo was irrelevant for the rest of the series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

I think Shaq fits the bill in 2000, but in 01 and 02 Kobe has a case on either end (not that I give him the edge, but again, I'm looking for consensus picks here)

a couple of people have Horry as a defensive pick as well

Horry's defense making a bigger impact than Shaq is pretty much ridiculous. He was a solid team defender, but Shaq as one of the leading shot blockers and rebounders, a massive presence, a guy who pretty much eliminated opposing centers back to the basket games and took away a lot of lay ups is definitely more impactful than what Horry brought defensively. Horry was also vulnerable for

I don't see much of a case for Kobe as an offensive or defensive player over Shaq by that point either.

Both Shaq and Kobe had the best defensive seasons of their career in 2000, and Shaq was the clear choice, I wouldn't say Shaq fell off more than Kobe did defensively the next 2 seasons. In fact, Shaq overall was the same player in 2001 that he was in 2000 with the one difference being he had a slower start the first 2 months in ''01 than '00.

I really can't think of a valid argument against Shaq any of the 3peat years.


"I've never seen a better player in my life," 76ers coach Larry Brown said.

"Shaq was the dominant player," Lakers coach Phil Jackson said. "He was the guy who was the motivator and the energizer for our team. His defense was really one of the keys for us winning this game.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2001/playoffs/news/2001/06/15/shaq_mvp/

2002 was Shaq's least impressive year out of the 3, but even then, it's hard to point to a bigger factor that got the Lakers the best opponents FG% and best opponents paint FG%.

In '01, he was all-defensive second team behind only DPOY Mutombo and ahead of Robinson.

He was also the 1st option, Lakers leading scorer in the regular season, playoffs and finals, FG% leader all 3 years.


Nope, there is no argument here. Outside of minor edge in assists, Pierce was worse at everything else.

Pierce was considered their most capable 1 on 1 scorer since KG wasn't a dominant post player. A good post player, but not a dominant one.

it's definitely debatable offensively, I mean if advanced stats are your thing, Pierce has an advantage there, especially in the playoffs.

It's always difficult to compare perimeter players vs big men, and KG did play more like a big man offensively than his Minnesota days. Though the only times I was really comfortable calling him a potentially dominant offensive player were '03 and '04.


Its a bad stat in a cross-team comparison, its a good comparison within a team. Just because you dont like advanced stats, doesnt mean they are bad if context is right.

No they're terrible. Go ahead, look at the formula and explain to me what makes sense about them. I don't like advanced stats in general, I won't lie. I grew up watching the game for years without any of these things and suddenly a ton of fans act like they're essential. But if I see an advanced stat where the formula makes sense I'll acknowledge it. TS%, eFG%, TRB% and BLK% make sense to me as well as defensive rating/offensive rating for teams. The formulas behind those can be explained quickly, and they're logical.

But many advanced stats are garbage and have really ruined a lot of analysis of the game.


Obviously McHale wasnt much better individual defender, he was better at it, while Bird was better overall defender.

Yes, McHale was a much better individual defender, and no, Bird wasn't the better defender in general. Subjective awards aren't the best way to go, but it seems like we weren't watching the same games anyway so I'll point out that both McHale and Bird were forwards and McHale was regularly an all-defensive player from '86 on while Bird wasn't.


And :facepalm even mentioning bench player as a more impactful at Celtics D.

It is tough to call Walton more impactful given his minutes, but I do think he was probably a better defender when he was on the court.

You dismiss center who was much better at almost everything defensively, and mention guard as more impactful? :facepalm


Dont like DRTG and Defensive win shares which Moses dominated? How about 28.2 DRB% vs 13.1 DRB% vs 6.3 DRB%? Or this stat doesnt matter as well? Mo did only one thing better - steals, Jones a minor edge in steals and blocks.

Defensive rebounding is a part of defense, but there's a lot more than that. Just look at Kevin Love. Malone's blocks were nothing special either. Moses isn't considered a great defensive player, and his block numbers weren't particularly notable for a center either. 2.0 bpg, 3.0 blk% during the regular season and 1.9 bpg during the playoffs and 2.8 blk%.

Hell, Dr.J led the Sixers in blocks during the playoffs and Bobby Jones came pretty close to Moses, both had better BLK% at 3.2%.

During the regular season, Doc tied Malone's BLK% at 3.0 and Bobby Jones fell just short at 2.9% while easily posting better stl%.


There is no question Moses was more impactful on D thqn anyone else in '83 Phily.

If that's true then why did none of this defensive impact show on his Houston teams for years?




1982 Kareem i question because of defensively Michael Cooper who started playing his DPOY defense starting from 1982 (where he was 1st all-defensive team and Kareem wasnt) and offensively Magic Johnson (points + assists = offense), not saying that Cooper was better defensively or that Magic was better offensively, but that it might have been a tie and that Kareem did not significantly separate himself from Magic offensively....

Magic didn't having an outside shot or post game yet so his half court game was really limited compared to Kareem. I think Kareem was till clearly better offensively for that reason considering how unstoppable his post game still was. Cooper has a case defensively, but all-defensive teams are ridiculous comparisons between guards and centers because there's only 1 spot available for centers on each team.


2005 & 2007 Duncan i question because of offensively Parker (1 point less with more assists) & Ginobili (who per 36 was their best scorer)...

Parker and Popovich both said that the defensive attention Duncan drew allowed Parker to have the series he did vs Cleveland. Duncan was still the 1st option on the Spurs, everything started with him, he averaged 20 ppg on 55% in the regular season, then raised his scoring in the playoffs. Getting that production from a post scorer as well as Duncan's passing makes him the clear choice.

If Ginobili could maintain those numbers over 36 minutes then maybe that'd be relevant.


1977 Walton i question because of offensively Maurice Lucas, who averaged more points, he was the same or better offensively...

:facepalm: Now this is downright ridiculous. You question it because Lucas scored a tiny bit more? Go watch the games and look at Walton's complete offensive skill set and post game, and then look at Walton's passing which makes this completely clear.

[pauk]

2009 Kobe, I'm not sure who one could argue was a better defender than him on his team.

He was the one taking on the great defensive players. I remember in the WCF when Melo was torching Ariza, the Lakers ended up switching Kobe on him and Melo was irrelevant for the rest of the series.

Defensively i question 2009 Kobe due to Lamar Odom & Trevor Ariza.

[StateOfMind12]

Defensively i question 2009 Kobe due to Lamar Odom & Trevor Ariza.
Odom? He was never a great defensive player, a good one maybe, but certainly not a great one and certainly not better than Kobe on that end. He was a good rebounder and a decent post-scorer/finisher but nothing more.

I already highlighted Ariza. Melo was killing Ariza in the beginning of the WCF but when the Lakers put Kobe on him, Melo was not scoring as easily and he struggled for the reminder of the series.

There is a reason why the Lakers ended up swapping Ariza for Artest that following off-season and it was because they knew they were going to play a team in the East with a great perimeter offensive player like Lebron or Pierce for the Finals next season.

They knew the Magic weren't going to make it to the Finals again and they were right because they ended up playing the Celtics for the Finals next season and Artest did a great job on Pierce.

[fpliii]

any input for the best defensive players on the following teams:

55 Nationals
56 Warriors
58 Hawks
75 Warriors
76 Celtics
78 Bullets
81 Celtics
84 Celtics
89 Pistons
90 Pistons
06 Heat
10 Lakers

and best offensive players for:

56 Warriors
62 Celtics
63 Celtics
66 Celtics
76 Celtics
89 Pistons

?

[Harison]

Pierce was considered their most capable 1 on 1 scorer since KG wasn't a dominant post player. A good post player, but not a dominant one.

it's definitely debatable offensively, I mean if advanced stats are your thing, Pierce has an advantage there, especially in the playoffs.

It's always difficult to compare perimeter players vs big men, and KG did play more like a big man offensively than his Minnesota days. Though the only times I was really comfortable calling him a potentially dominant offensive player were '03 and '04.

And we go round and round :D Just because Pierce is better iso player than KG, doesnt mean he was a better offensive player in '08 Playoffs - because he wasnt.

Facts are: KG scored the most points, at much better 2PT FG%, at better FT%, Pierce only had a edge in 3PT%.

KG was the most consistent, while Pierce was on a roller coaster, often not showing up at all.

KG was the Celtics' leading scorer in all pivotal games where the series was tied and the winner would take the series lead: KG 22.6 ppg, Pierce 20.5 ppg in 10 such games (this includes, by the way, Pierce

[rmt]

I have no problem with saying Duncan was the best player on both sides of the ball in 05, but you won't find a consensus (because many contend Ginobili was a bigger force in every series except the WCF); regarding the other two years:

99 - I'm basing this primarily on my own impression from watching them that season/playoffs...here's a decent breakdown:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=239755

07 - I give the slight edge to Parker, but have no problem if you choose Duncan:

1st round (vs DEN)

Duncan - 20.2/5.4 on .473/---/.591 shooting
Parker - 18.2/6.8 on .442/.333/.875 shooting

West Semis (vs PHO)

Duncan - 26.8/1.2 on .573/---/.614 shooting
Parker - 20.8/5.7 on .451/.000/.697 shooting

WCF (vs UTA)

Duncan - 21.8/3.2 on .576/---/.717 shooting
Parker - 20.2/6.8 on .481/.667/.658 shooting

Finals (vs CLE)

Duncan - 18.3/3.8 on .446/---/.625 shooting
Parker - 24.5/3.3 on .568/.571/.526 shooting

as I said above though, in this thread I'm really looking to target only consensus picks

In 05, Duncan was coming back from an ankle injury that kept him out of 12 of the last 16 RS games so he did start the DEN series slowly. But he did have 3 points more/per game throughout the playoffs while being the focus of the offense. And in game 7, it was the defensive attention drawn by TD that won the game.

The 07 championship was decided in the Phoenix series. The Finals were a formality - no way CLE was going to beat SAS once Lebron was contained by Bowen on the perimeter and Duncan in the middle - just too much firepower and experience.

[jlip]

and best offensive players for:

62 Celtics

?

I think that a case can be made for Russell as the best offensive player on the '62 Celtics. During the regular season he was 2nd in scoring, assists, and fg%. In the playoffs he led the team in scoring and fg% as well as was 2nd in assists. Couple that with the fact that he actually shot 72.6% from the ft line in the playoffs.

[SmackOrH.A.K]

can you please add lebron to that consensus list...

[fpliii]

In 05, Duncan was coming back from an ankle injury that kept him out of 12 of the last 16 RS games so he did start the DEN series slowly. But he did have 3 points more/per game throughout the playoffs while being the focus of the offense. And in game 7, it was the defensive attention drawn by TD that won the game.

The 07 championship was decided in the Phoenix series. The Finals were a formality - no way CLE was going to beat SAS once Lebron was contained by Bowen on the perimeter and Duncan in the middle - just too much firepower and experience.

I don't have a huge problem with this line of thought, we're not far off

I just think it was close enough that he won't fit on the consensus list (unless he gets a lot of support otherwise)


I think that a case can be made for Russell as the best offensive player on the '62 Celtics. During the regular season he was 2nd in scoring, assists, and fg%. In the playoffs he led the team in scoring and fg% as well as was 2nd in assists. Couple that with the fact that he actually shot 72.6% from the ft line in the playoffs.

perhaps, good points


can you please add lebron to that consensus list...

just added 00 Shaq and 12 LeBron to the OP

[JaggerCommaMick]

Who is there, realistically?

Consensus So Far:

71 Hakeem
91 Jordan
94 Hakeem
00 Shaq
03 Duncan
12 LeBron

Currently Being Discussed:

83 Malone
86 Bird
92 Jordan
93 Jordan
99 Duncan
05 Duncan
07 Duncan
08 Garnett






'71 Hakeem :lol


Dude was dominating the wicker basket leagues across Africa that year. Dreamshaking with cantaloupes and dominating on defense swatting the flies off Ethiopians.

[fpliii]

'71 Hakeem :lol


Dude was dominating the wicker basket leagues across Africa that year. Dream shaking with cantaloupes and practiced his swatting on flies around Ethiopians.

Lol oops, good catch :lol

[kennethgriffin]

duh kobe in 2009 and 2010


1st team all nba
1st team all defense

both times nobody else on LA even made the 2nd team all defense..


and even if you argued artest in 2010... he wasnt on LA in 2009

[RRR3]

KOBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! <3
:facepalm

[fpliii]

duh kobe in 2009 and 2010


1st team all nba
1st team all defense

both times nobody else on LA even made the 2nd team all defense..


and even if you argued artest in 2010... he wasnt on LA in 2009

I don't know about 10 Kobe, but 09 Kobe has an argument

people have mentioned Odom/Ariza, but that hasn't been discussed as much as some of the other years

do you want to make a case for him? this is kind of an open discussion thread, we're trying to figure out who the consensus guys are

[Heavincent]

Kobe in 09 and 10, Lebron, Shaq in the 3-peat, Duncan, Hakeem. There's a bunch more too.

[JaggerCommaMick]

I don't know about 10 Kobe, but 09 Kobe has an argument

people have mentioned Odom/Ariza, but that hasn't been discussed as much as some of the other years

do you want to make a case for him? this is kind of an open discussion thread, we're trying to figure out who the consensus guys are


When the only people lobbying a particular players case are his notoriously delusional stans, its safe to say there aint a consensus.

Vote NO on Kobe in '09! (election season humor, mates)

[kennethgriffin]

I don't know about 10 Kobe, but 09 Kobe has an argument

people have mentioned Odom/Ariza, but that hasn't been discussed as much as some of the other years

do you want to make a case for him? this is kind of an open discussion thread, we're trying to figure out who the consensus guys are

what argument? lol

2009 kobe was still practically in his physical prime... he was a legit 1st team all nba defender

only in 2010,11,12 were people saying "he trys hald the time on D"

kobe is beyond a shadow of a doubt ATLEAST one of the top 10 defenders of all time

that much is impossible to argue. because hes GOT THE MOST ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAMS IN HISTORY


my god... why am i even having to debate stuff like this?

:facepalm

i'm out

[kennethgriffin]

When the only people lobbying a particular players case are his notoriously delusional stans, its safe to say there aint a consensus.

Vote NO on Kobe in '09! (election season humor, mates)


:biggums:


what in the f*ck is wrong with this place?


a prime kobe 1st team all defender isnt the best defensive player on LA?

[Riley Martin]

I don't know about 10 Kobe, but 09 Kobe has an argument

people have mentioned Odom/Ariza, but that hasn't been discussed as much as some of the other years

do you want to make a case for him? this is kind of an open discussion thread, we're trying to figure out who the consensus guys are

Odom/Ariza being better defenders than Kobe in 2009? I don't agree with that

[fpliii]

what argument? lol

2009 kobe was still practically in his physical prime... he was a legit 1st team all nba defender

only in 2010,11,12 were people saying "he trys hald the time on D"

kobe is beyond a shadow of a doubt ATLEAST one of the top 10 defenders of all time

that much is impossible to argue. because hes GOT THE MOST ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAMS IN HISTORY


my god... why am i even having to debate stuff like this?

:facepalm

i'm out

I'm not a big all-defensive teams guy, but it's hard to give a non-defensive anchor a top 10 defender all-time nod

at his peak he was a top-10 perimeter defender (00-03, almost as good in 08,09) in league history though

I give 09 Kobe credit for being the best on both ends of the ball, but you don't have to convince me...you have to appeal to the masses to reach a consensus


Odom/Ariza being better defenders than Kobe in 2009? I don't agree with that

I don't either, but someone mentioned that so it has to be addressed

[kennethgriffin]

Odom/Ariza being better defenders than Kobe in 2009? I don't agree with that


don't bother man


these haters are taking it to the next level

i used to find it funny. now its making me wanna leave this place. but i can't because then it would be full of nothing but these MORONS

[RRR3]

don't bother man


these haters are taking it to the next level

i used to find it funny. now its making me wanna leave this place. but i can't because then it would be full of nothing but these MORONS
*looks at avatar*
Oh the irony of you calling anyone a moron

[fpliii]

don't bother man


these haters are taking it to the next level

i used to find it funny. now its making me wanna leave this place. but i can't because then it would be full of nothing but these MORONS

:facepalm

bro I said that it was mentioned in the thread, not that I personally believe that (I said above he's on my list)

the entire point of this thread is to reach a consensus though

[Cali Syndicate]

Odom? He was never a great defensive player, a good one maybe, but certainly not a great one and certainly not better than Kobe on that end. He was a good rebounder and a decent post-scorer/finisher but nothing more.

I already highlighted Ariza. Melo was killing Ariza in the beginning of the WCF but when the Lakers put Kobe on him, Melo was not scoring as easily and he struggled for the reminder of the series.

There is a reason why the Lakers ended up swapping Ariza for Artest that following off-season and it was because they knew they were going to play a team in the East with a great perimeter offensive player like Lebron or Pierce for the Finals next season.

They knew the Magic weren't going to make it to the Finals again and they were right because they ended up playing the Celtics for the Finals next season and Artest did a great job on Pierce.

Melo was doing up Kobe too. Throughout the series Ariza was on Melo far more often than Kobe so don't compare Kobe's occasional defensive possessions on Melo to Ariza. Ariza was the team's most versatile defender and was arguably their most effective. And because you forgot, Lakers wanted to keep Ariza. Reason he wasn't re-signed was they didn't have the cap space for both him and Odom. At the about the same price tag, Odom's easily the player to go with. As for Artest, he was brought in at a discounted price who was felt could take over Ariza's role. So no, he wasn't "swapped" in the way you are making it out to be.

[kennethgriffin]

I'm not a big all-defensive teams guy, but it's hard to give a non-defensive anchor a top 10 defender all-time nod

at his peak he was a top-10 perimeter defender (00-03, almost as good in 08,09) in league history though

I give 09 Kobe credit for being the best on both ends of the ball, but you don't have to convince me...you have to appeal to the masses to reach a consensus



I don't either, but someone mentioned that so it has to be addressed

defensive anchor is just another word for "big man"


well the best defender on LA wasn't a big man... bynum barely played or tried half the time.. and pau was crap on D

[kennethgriffin]

:facepalm

bro I said that it was mentioned in the thread, not that I personally believe that (I said above he's on my list)

the entire point of this thread is to reach a consensus though

lol i don't mean you. i'm talkin about the other 100 morons who just post to p*ss off kobe fans


i say jordans the best ever, lebrons the best right now.

you'd think the fans of those players would show 10% of the amount of respect back to other fans like myself


but NO!

KOBE IS A CHUCKING BIG MAN RIDING NO DEFENSE HAVIN JORDAN WANNABE!!!

lol

fu*k em all

[Heavincent]

lol i don't mean you. i'm talkin about the other 100 morons who just post to p*ss off kobe fans


i say jordans the best ever, lebrons the best right now.

you'd think the fans of those players would show 10% of the amount of respect back to other fans like myself


but NO!

KOBE IS A CHUCKING BIG MAN RIDING NO DEFENSE HAVIN JORDAN WANNABE!!!

lol

fu*k em all

You get way too excited about this shit. People say dumb shit online (and in the real world too obviously). Get used to it.

[KOBE143]

Kobe 2001 and 2002 - Shaq and Kobe were equal offensively and Kobe was their best defensive player..

Kobe 09 and 2010 - Kobe was the best player and arguably top 3 in defense in the league that time..

[kennethgriffin]

You get way too excited about this shit. People say dumb shit online (and in the real world too obviously). Get used to it.

i'm bored. its the same thing every day

i'm out till training camp... peace

[fpliii]

i'm bored. its the same thing every day

i'm out till training camp... peace

later

[ShaqAttack3234]

And we go round and round :D Just because Pierce is better iso player than KG, doesnt mean he was a better offensive player in '08 Playoffs - because he wasnt.

I didn't say Pierce was better than KG offensively just that it was debatable. And I wasn't talking about the playoffs exclusively either. The question is best offensive player and defensive player on championship teams, not just the playoffs.

Pierce being a better 1 on 1 scorer doesn't necessarily means he was a better offensive player, but it is a valid argument for him being a better offensive player.


Facts are: KG scored the most points, at much better 2PT FG%, at better FT%, Pierce only had a edge in 3PT%.

Pierce got to the line much more, though while taking significantly less FGA which I'd say gives him the free throw advantage since KG's FT% advantage was only 81% to 80.2%.


KG was the most consistent, while Pierce was on a roller coaster, often not showing up at all.

I agree, but Pierce was clearly the better offensive player in the finals which is worth noting.

[QUOTE]KG was the Celtics' leading scorer in all pivotal games where the series was tied and the winner would take the series lead: KG 22.6 ppg, Pierce 20.5 ppg in 10 such games (this includes, by the way, Pierce

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Kobe in 09 and 10, Lebron, Shaq in the 3-peat, Duncan, Hakeem. There's a bunch more too.

:facepalm

You've got to be kidding. Detach your mouth from his dick.

[lilgodfather1]

what argument? lol

2009 kobe was still practically in his physical prime... he was a legit 1st team all nba defender

only in 2010,11,12 were people saying "he trys hald the time on D"

kobe is beyond a shadow of a doubt ATLEAST one of the top 10 defenders of all time

that much is impossible to argue. because hes GOT THE MOST ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAMS IN HISTORY


my god... why am i even having to debate stuff like this?

:facepalm

i'm out
When you say something like that it makes your entire opinion look well retarded to be nice.

Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Artest, KG, Duncan, Howard, Wallace, Rodman, DRob, Hakeem, BILL RUSSELL, well is there really any point in continuing? I'm not even talking about players from more than 20 years ago other than Russell, but that's simply because I don't know most of them. I can't tell you every player that has ever played in the NBA, but I can tell you the players that have been better than Kobe ever was defensively in the last two decades pretty easily...

[fpliii]

does anybody mind if I add 80 Kareem to the consensus list?

[Cali Syndicate]

When you say something like that it makes your entire opinion look well retarded to be nice.

Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Artest, KG, Duncan, Howard, Wallace, Rodman, DRob, Hakeem, BILL RUSSELL, well is there really any point in continuing? I'm not even talking about players from more than 20 years ago other than Russell, but that's simply because I don't know most of them. I can't tell you every player that has ever played in the NBA, but I can tell you the players that have been better than Kobe ever was defensively in the last two decades pretty easily...

Lebron doesn't belong on that list. And Kobe in his earlier days was a great perimeter defender.

[alleykat]

I might be misunderstanding your question...correct me if I am.

But LeBron last year? Wasn't a great defender, but was the best on Miami. Obviously was the best offensive player.

Prior to that... I'd go Timmy Duncan.

the op says best offensive + defensive player on a championship team.....

so even if he wasn't a great defender but was the best on Miami it still applies

[kennethgriffin]

When you say something like that it makes your entire opinion look well retarded to be nice.

Jordan, Pippen, LeBron, Artest, KG, Duncan, Howard, Wallace, Rodman, DRob, Hakeem, BILL RUSSELL, well is there really any point in continuing? I'm not even talking about players from more than 20 years ago other than Russell, but that's simply because I don't know most of them. I can't tell you every player that has ever played in the NBA, but I can tell you the players that have been better than Kobe ever was defensively in the last two decades pretty easily...

oh yaaa... because kobes a guard... his defensive skills don't count as much as a big mans

:bowdown:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/rewfgrewgf.png

lick nu*ts... tired of you a** clowns trying to rewrite history and discount anything kobe does

[KG215]

No one is trying to discount what Kobe has done. All-Defensive teams don't necessarily equate to best defensive player ever at that position or top 5-10 defender all-time. Never mind the fact that the best defensive players in NBA history are centers and there's just one spot for them on each All-Defensive team.

People just get annoyed when you go full-on Kobetard and say something like "Kobe's at least one of the 10 greatest defenders of all-time."

[M.Bustly15A5RU8]

Who's discounting that Kobe has been on a lot of all defense teams?

:confusedshrug:

[fpliii]

No one is trying to discount what Kobe does. All-Defensive teams don't necessarily equate to best defensive player ever at that position or top 5-10 defender all-time. Never mind the fact that the best defensive players in NBA history are centers and there's just one spot for them on each All-Defensive team.

People just get annoyed when you go full-on Kobetard and say something like "Kobe's at least one of the 10 greatest defenders of all-time."

hey bro

I sent you some more box scores, as well as a couple of graphics I've been sent...let me know when you have a chance to update the spreadsheet so I know what else you need me to find

:cheers:

btw which player are you thinking about adding next?

[BEAST Griffin]

oh yaaa... because kobes a guard... his defensive skills don't count as much as a big mans

:bowdown:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/rewfgrewgf.png

lick nu*ts... tired of you a** clowns trying to rewrite history and discount anything kobe does


according to your logic we should call him billrussellbe

:facepalm

[kennethgriffin]

Who's discounting that Kobe has been on a lot of all defense teams?

:confusedshrug:


the people who say they don't mean anything

:confusedshrug:


everything someone not named kobe does = counts

everything kobe does = meaningless

:confusedshrug:


f*ck em all?

:confusedshrug:

[kennethgriffin]

according to your logic we should call him billrussellbe

:facepalm


no... infact... kobe is nowhere near the best defender ever


but him having the MOST defensive first teams ( you'd think ) would give him a good chance at -----------possibly----------- being one of the 10 best career defensemen in basketball history



BUT



nope :D

people laugh


:lol

[kennethgriffin]

and you know whats really laughable


some people say kobe has more 1st teams than most centers because theres 2 guard selections for the 1st team all nba


well lets see... how about we count every centers 1st AND 2nd team all defensive selections... and only count kobes 1st team selections


thats 2 possible slots compared to 2 possible slots

kareem = 11 (1st or 2nd)
kobe = 9 (1st )
hakeem = 9 ( 1st or 2nd )
robinson = 8 ( 1st or 2nd )
dikembe = 6 ( 1st or 2nd )



ya.... big men are SOOOO much more dominant...

:lol

1 god damn center... thats it? i thought most centers if givin the same chance would have more?

[KG215]

I could probably sit here and list 15-20 players off the top of my head that were better defensive players than Kobe

No one is disputing that he was or wasn't a great defender. It's you Griff calling him one of the 10 greatest defenders all-time that's too much.

[kennethgriffin]

I could probably sit here and list 15-20 players off the top of my head that were better defensive players than Kobe

No one is disputing that he was or wasn't a great defender. It's you Griff calling him one of the 10 greatest defenders all-time that's too much.


well... there isnt


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa280/cashforcards/rewfgrewgf.png



:confusedshrug:


sorry man... all defensive 1st teams >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kg215's opinion

[Cali Syndicate]

Is it training camp already??:confusedshrug:


























































































































:confusedshrug:

[KG215]

Griff, I'd love to see your ranking of top 10 defensive players of all-time. Prime/peak Jordan was a better defender than Kobe and I'm not even sure he's a top 10 defensive player ever. Off the top of my head, these are just the big men I'd consider better and more impactful defensive players than Kobe: Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Robinson, Duncan, Garnett, Ben Wallace, Mutombo, Ewing, and Dwight Howard. That's 10 players right there and that doesn't even include the 5-10 perimeter players that were as good of or better defenders than Kobe

[kennethgriffin]

Is it training camp already??:confusedshrug:




:confusedshrug:


nope..

here's my top 20 defensive players

#1 Bill Russell
#2 Kevin Garnett
#3 Scottie Pippen
#4 Dennis Rodman
#5 Hakeem Olajuwon
#6 Michael Jordan
#7 Dwight Howard
#8 Ben Wallace
#9 Tim Duncan
#10 Kobe Bryant
#11 Gary Payton
#12 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
#13 David Robinson
#14 Wilt Chamberlain
#15 Walt Frazier
#16 John Havlicek
#17 Jason Kidd
#18 Dennis Johnson
#19 Bruce Bowen
#20 Michael Cooper


its not just about peak.... longevity has allot to do with it

and its also not just about blocks... locking a guy up is 10 times more valuable than 2-3 blocks a game that get sent into the stands and just end up giving the other team another attempt

some defensive aspects are honestly overrated. like passing lane steals.. iverson would lead the league in steals all the time.. but he was a horrid defender


the only way to judge is to watch. and for most of kobes career he was a lock down defender.


in kobes prime he would pick and choose whether he would lock up the other teams PG, SG or SF... kobe has become a vastly underrated defender on message boards


and hes got the all time defensive 1st team record to prove it

[KG215]

nope..

here's my top 20 defensive players

#1 Bill Russell
#2 Kevin Garnett
#3 Scottie Pippen
#4 Dennis Rodman
#5 Hakeem Olajuwon
#6 Michael Jordan
#7 Dwight Howard
#8 Ben Wallace
#9 Tim Duncan
#10 Kobe Bryant
#11 Gary Payton
#12 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
#13 David Robinson
#14 Wilt Chamberlain
#15 Walt Frazier
#16 John Havlicek
#17 Jason Kidd
#18 Dennis Johnson
#19 Bruce Bowen
#20 Michael Cooper


So Kobe over Payton, Kareem, Robinson, and Wilt? K.

[kennethgriffin]

So Kobe over Payton, Kareem, Robinson, and Wilt? K.


yes...

payton could only guard 2 positions
kareem, robinson and wilt could only guard 1 position

kobe can guard AND PLAY 3 positions


kobe can defend payton... then defend lebron

and if kareem was such a lock down defender. how did he let teams drop 110ppg on his lakers nightly

and like i said before.. blocks arnt as good as lock down defense... big men just roam to alter shots... kobe stops people from even being able to take them


but whatever... defense will always be a big mans thing. they get all the awards and credit because peoples jaws drop when they see a nice swat


well kobe spends the first 15 seconds of the shot clock harassing a player up the full length of the floor. then forcing him into a dumb pass or shot.

theres allot more skill to perimeter defense. i never understood why these clumsy bigs with no foot work get all the awards

[KG215]

yes...

payton could only guard 2 positions
kareem, robinson and wilt could only guard 1 position

kobe can guard AND PLAY 3 positions
None of that necessarily makes someone a better defender than someone else.


and if kareem was such a lock down defender. how did he let teams drop 110ppg on his lakers nightly
You mean the Showtime Lakers? The same Lakers teams that played at a really fast pace? Not to mention the amount of points a team allows doesn't indicate how great an individual defender is.


and like i said before.. blocks arnt as good as lock down defense... big men just roam to alter shots... kobe stops people from even being able to take them

but whatever... defense will always be a big mans thing. they get all the awards and credit because peoples jaws drop when they see a nice swat
The best defensive big men do more than "just block shots" but keep on thinking that.




theres allot more skill to perimeter defense. i never understood why these clumsy bigs with no foot work get all the awards
And now you're just purposely ignoring the significance of a great defensive big man while also downplaying their impact to fit your agenda.

[arifgokcen]

So Kobe over Payton, Kareem, Robinson, and Wilt? K.
Dude this is kennethgrifin we are talking about.
BTW kobe is not even in my top25

[DJ Leon Smith]

Are we talking about Kobe's awesome D? Cue the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPC8ojduiA

[Kblaze8855]

Kobe isnt even a top 10 defender since I started watching. Forget all time.

[ShaqAttack3234]

:roll: Now I've heard it all. Kobe is a better defender than David Robinson? Robinson is one of the top 3, or at worst, top 5 defensive players of the last 20 years. Kobe wasn't a better defender than Shaq, much less David Robinson. I know, Kobe and Shaq had their best defensive seasons at the same time(2000) and there wasn't much of a question.

[Overdrive]

well kobe spends the first 15 seconds of the shot clock harassing a player up the full length of the floor. then forcing him into a dumb pass or shot.

theres allot more skill to perimeter defense. i never understood why these clumsy bigs with no foot work get all the awards

Kobe and many other socalled lock down defenders on the perimeter can do this, because they gamble on defending the jumpshot, because they know there's a bigguy at the rim waiting for the small guy passing by the so called lockdown defender. The ball handling player knows this aswell.

It's easy to defend closely if you there's still some 7 footer there cleaning up, especially if it's Shaq.

[KG215]

Kobe and many other socalled lock down defenders on the perimeter can do this, because they gamble on defending the jumpshot, because they know there's a bigguy at the rim waiting for the small guy passing by the so called lockdown defender. The ball handling player knows this aswell.

It's easy to defend closely if you there's still some 7 footer there cleaning up, especially if it's Shaq.

He's just manipulating things to fit his agenda. It's what he does. Anyone with a brain knows a great defensive big man does more than "just block shots."

[kennethgriffin]

well... its impossible to have a big man fan admit any player except a big are the best defensive players ever

i think the 2 shouldnt even be listed and cant be listed in the same rankings because some people are just so blind and biased


theyre measured on 2 completely different types of defense


guards are about passing lane steals, moving their feet, running around screens, using allot of their skills with their foot work

big men are about blocks, positioning, leverage, power, and staying in one box and never having to chase anyone. usually shifting based on everyone else.



its 2 completely different aspects of the game. it really just depends on how objective you are... i myself can see the value that skills and athleticism are on the wing for defense


most cant. most are just idiots going "yay BLOCKS! derp!... is rebounds defense? :hammerhead: "



so kobe is a top 10 perimeter defender all time. atleast that much is for sure.

lets just quit mixing the 2 lists. only make one for outside and inside

[Anaximandro1]

Not sure about,Bill,Kareem,Wilt and Moses,so I'd say

Jordan 91,92,93

Olajuwon 94,95

Duncan 99,03,05,07

Shaq 00,01,02

LeBron 12


in 99 Admiral was the defensive anchor
Robinson played well,but Duncan was the best defensive player.In fact Robinson didn't make the 99 All-Defensive Teams. (http://www.nba.com/history/awards_defensiveteams.html)


1999

RS - Duncan 8.2 drb,2.5 blk ---- Robinson 7.0 drb,2.4 blk

PS - Duncan 8.2 drb,2.6 blk ---- Robinson 7.8 drb,2.5 blk


in 05/07 arguably Manu and definitely Parker respectively meant more to the offense IMO)
That's impossible for the simple reason that Tim (when healthy) was the first option until the late 2000s.


2005

RS - Duncan 20.3 pt,2.7 as,3.1 orb ---- Manu 16.0 pt,3.9 as,1.0 orb

PS - Duncan 23.6 pt,2.7 as,3.8 orb ---- Manu 20.8 pt,4.2 as,0.8 orb


2007

RS - Duncan 20.0 pt,3.4 as,2.7 orb ---- Parker 18.6 pt,5.5 as,0.4 orb

PS - Duncan 22.2 pt,3.3 as,3.7 orb ---- Parker 20.8 pt,5.8 as,0.7 orb

In fact Duncan outscored Manu and Parker in every PO series during the championship runs in 2005 and 2007.The exception: 2005 FR and 2007 NBA Finals,where the Spurs swept the Cavs.It was short and easy.


2005

FRWC vs DEN - FRWC vs DEN - Duncan 22.0 pt,3.4 as,2.2 orb ---- Manu 22.8 pt,4.0 as,0.2 orb

WCSF vs SEA - Duncan 25.2 pt,2.5 as,3.3 orb ---- Manu 20.5 pt,4.2 as,1.3 orb

WCF vs PHO - Duncan 27.4 pt,3.2 as,4.6 orb ---- Manu 22.2 pt,4.8 as,0.4 orb

Finals vs DET - Duncan 20.6 pt,2.1 as,4.7 orb ---- Manu 18.7 pt,4.0 as,1.1 orb

2007

FRWC vs DEN - Duncan 20.2 pt,5.4 as,3.6 orb ---- Parker 18.2 pt,3.2 as,1.0 orb

WCSF vs PHO- Duncan 26.8 pt,1.2 as,4.7 orb ---- Parker 20.8 pt,5.7 as,0.3 orb

WCF vs UTA - Duncan 21.8 pt,3.2 as,2.2 orb ---- Parker 20.2 pt,6.8 as,0.8 orb

Finals vs CLE - Duncan 18.3 pt,3.8 as,4.0 orb ---- Parker 24.5 pt,3.3 as,0.8 orb


In 05, Duncan was coming back from an ankle injury that kept him out of 12 of the last 16 RS games so he did start the DEN series slowly. But he did have 3 points more/per game throughout the playoffs while being the focus of the offense. And in game 7, it was the defensive attention drawn by TD that won the game.
Manu was a great second option for us,but Tim was clearly #1

In game 7,The Pistons led 48-41 with 6 minutes to play in the third quarter.The team was dead,but Timmy scored 12 points in the final 6 minutes.In the fourth quarter, Larry Brown decided to double team Duncan and the rest is history.

Timmy scored 17 points and dished 2 assists in the final 17 minutes of game 7.He generated 23 of the Spurs' 32 points.Then,in the final seconds Manu made a bunch of FTs when the game was already won.

Don't forget Game 6 @ SEA,where Duncan scored 12 pts in the last 11 minutes,including the game-winning shot to clinch the series (Manu only scored 2 pt in the 4th)


The 07 championship was decided in the Phoenix series. The Finals were a formality - no way CLE was going to beat SAS once Lebron was contained by Bowen on the perimeter and Duncan in the middle - just too much firepower and experience.
Yeah,the PHO series was the key and they didn't have an answer for Timmy.

[KG215]

well... its impossible to have a big man fan admit any player except a big are the best defensive players ever

i think the 2 shouldnt even be listed and cant be listed in the same rankings because some people are just so blind and biased


theyre measured on 2 completely different types of defense


guards are about passing lane steals, moving their feet, running around screens, using allot of their skills with their foot work

big men are about blocks, positioning, leverage, power, and staying in one box and never having to chase anyone. usually shifting based on everyone else.



its 2 completely different aspects of the game. it really just depends on how objective you are... i myself can see the value that skills and athleticism are on the wing for defense


most cant. most are just idiots going "yay BLOCKS! derp!... is rebounds defense? :hammerhead: "



so kobe is a top 10 perimeter defender all time. atleast that much is for sure.

lets just quit mixing the 2 lists. only make one for outside and inside

Haha, you get owned and proven wrong, so now you're backtracking saying we shouldn't even compare defensive ability and impact between perimeter payers and big men. This, after you were (and still are) downplaying what great defensive bigs do by saying all they do is block shots.

[kennethgriffin]

Haha, you get owned and proven wrong, so now you're backtracking saying we shouldn't even compare defensive ability and impact between perimeter payers and big men. This, after you were (and still are) downplaying what great defensive bigs do by saying all they do is block shots.

actually i stick by my ranking... i just said to make it a normal conversation on a forum with biased idiots

and how was i owned? i was the only one providing evidence in favor of my case


kobe is one of the top 10 defensive players ever IMO

[DJ Leon Smith]

kobe is one of the top 10 defensive players ever IMO

It's true, plus don't forget everyone who ever played in the NBA except for Kobe played in a weak era. Guys like Gary Payton didn't have to guard players of the caliber of Courtney Lee in the NBA Finals.

[KG215]

actually i stick by my ranking... i just said to make it a normal conversation on a forum with biased idiots

and how was i owned? i was the only one providing evidence in favor of my case


kobe is one of the top 10 defensive players ever IMO

So all the people that don't agree with you about being one of the 10 best defenders EVER are biased idiots?

I agree with Kobe as a top 10 perimeter defender all-time, but he doesn't even sniff the top 10 all-time when you include everyone.

[BlueandGold]

On their team or in the league?

If it's best offensive and defensive player in the league no one has it except Jordan.

Only person to win DPOY, MVP, FMVP, all-star MVP, 6 championships, etc.

[kennethgriffin]

It's true, plus don't forget everyone who ever played in the NBA except for Kobe played in a weak era. Guys like Gary Payton didn't have to guard players of the caliber of Courtney Lee in the NBA Finals.

nobody guards just 1 player.

but these are the good players kobe had to guard on the way to his rings

2000 -

penny hardaway
jason kidd
peja stojakovic
steve smith
scottie pippen
reggie miller
jalen rose

2001 -

Steve Smith
Scottie Pippen
peja stojakovic
allen iverson


2002 -

scottie pippen
steve smith
mike bibby
peja stojakovic
jason kidd
kerry kittles


2009 -

deron williams
ron artest
carmelo anthony
chauncy billups
jr smith
hedo turkoglu
jameer nelson

2010 -

kevin durant
russell westbrook
james harden
deron williams
jason richardson
grant hill
steve nash
paul pierce
ray allen
rajon rondo




defense wins championships

[kennethgriffin]

So all the people that don't agree with you about being one of the 10 best defenders EVER are biased idiots?

I agree with Kobe as a top 10 perimeter defender all-time, but he doesn't even sniff the top 10 all-time when you include everyone.


did i say that?


all i see are people saying he isnt even top 20 and barely a top 10 current defender at any time since "they started watching basketball"

those people are IDIOTS

[DJ Leon Smith]

Did this guy just list Antonio Daniels, Aaron McKie and Derrick Anderson as examples of great players Kobe had to guard?

http://i48.tinypic.com/9zt20g.jpg

[kennethgriffin]

Did this guy just list Antonio Daniels, Aaron McKie and Derrick Anderson as examples of great players Kobe had to guard?

http://i48.tinypic.com/9zt20g.jpg

well believe it or not... i said "good" players

sorry... its still a big list even if you took those guys off the list


but i listed them because at the time they were averaging around 15ppg in the playoffs


but whatever. i'l take them off if theyre not good enough

[Heavincent]

Are we talking about Kobe's awesome D? Cue the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylPC8ojduiA

Are we talking about Jordan's awesome D? Cue the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3X274lz3wY

See, I can do this too.

[DJ Leon Smith]

Are we talking about Jordan's awesome D? Cue the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3X274lz3wY

See, I can do this too.

No one is trying to put Jordan ahead of players who were clearly better than him defensively.

Once again Kobe fans fail to understand they're the reason why Kobe gets so much backlash.

[kennethgriffin]

No one is trying to put Jordan ahead of players who were clearly better than him defensively.

Once again Kobe fans fail to understand they're the reason why Kobe gets so much backlash.


how are they clearly better?

[Heavincent]

No one is trying to put Jordan ahead of players who were clearly better than him defensively.

And I'm not doing that with Kobe.

[kennethgriffin]

popovich saying kobe was the most tallented defender in the nba ( during the last year of tims prime )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI

[KG215]

did i say that?


all i see are people saying he isnt even top 20 and barely a top 10 current defender at any time since "they started watching basketball"


Say those people just started watching basketball in 1990, 22 years ago. Including big men, these are players that I think most would agree were/are better defenders than Kobe.

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Shaq
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman

That's 13 players since about 1990 who were/are better defenders than Kobe. It's not a knock on Kobe who, at his best, was a phenomena defender. That doesn't make people saying "he's not even top 10 since I started watching" idiots.

[kennethgriffin]

Say those people just started watching basketball in 1990, 22 years ago. Including big men, these are players that I think most would agree were/are better defenders than Kobe.

Hakeem Olajuwon
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Alonzo Mourning
Shaq
Dikembe Mutombo
Ben Wallace
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
Dwight Howard
Michael Jordan
Scottie Pippen
Dennis Rodman

That's 13 players since about 1990 who were/are better defenders than Kobe. It's not a knock on Kobe who, at his best, was a phenomena defender. That doesn't make people saying "he's not even top 10 since I started watching" idiots.


its just a hypocritical method for people to say "jordan scottie yay!" then when kobes name comes up


"ummm actually... big men this! big men that! defensive anchor! big men are more important!


its just typical to appreciate a wing defenders defense when theyre someone you worship

but when its kobe.... not so much...


like i said. theres no respect for kobe on this site.. how is it a guy who coaches one of the greatest defensive players ever ( tim duncan ) can come out publicly on live television ( one of the greatest basketball minds of all time ) and say "kobe bryant is better than tim duncan at defense"


thats an ultimate level of respect.... and no one here seems to have any sign of respect for anything kobe does


all time record defensive achivements... = PFFFFHHHHT DONT COUNT!

winning titles with epic defense on some of the best scorers of all time = PPFFFFHT HE ONLY DEFENDED COURTNY LEE SINCE 2000 DERP!!!!!!!!

:facepalm

[Hands of Iron]

Not another tantrum. :(

[Hands of Iron]

Here's something to Cheer you up (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNoM2kwfndw&feature=youtube_gdata_player), Kenny.

[knickscity]

For me it is Hakeem.

His fingertip ruined the Knicks 94 title hope.

[Heavincent]

Defensive rankings are stupid because people have an extreme bias for star players. Where does a guy like Thabo Sefolosha rank? You know, a player that actually specializes in defense. Sefolosha is as good as it gets for a perimeter defender, yet I never see his name in these lists. Why is that?

[Hands of Iron]

Hakeem, the only man to win MVP, Finals MVP and DPOY in the same season. Shaq came pretty close in 2000.

[DatAsh]

Who is there, realistically?


Currently Being Discussed:

83 Malone - yes
86 Bird - no, and this one is pretty easy. McHale and Parish were both better on the defensive end.
92 Jordan - yes, Jordan was still a better defender than Pippen this year. This one is semi easy for me.
93 Jordan - I'll say yes, but it's very close. This is the year I personally believe that Pippen became Jordan's equal and perhaps surpassed him. I think Phil still considered Jordan the better defender at this time, but I can easily see a case for Pippen.
99 Duncan - no, but it's close. Robinson was still the better defender at this point, but like I said, it's close.
05 Duncan - yes, fairly easy
07 Duncan - I'll say yes, but Parker's playmaking makes this very close offensively.
08 Garnett - no, Pierce was better offensively in my opinion
09 Kobe - no, but it's very close. I think Lamar and Pau were just slightly better defensively

Need More Opinions:

67 Wilt - yes, easiest one yet
74 Havlicek - yes
77 Walton - yes, but Lucas is close offensively
80 Kareem - yes, easy
82 Kareem - no, but it's close. Gonna go with Cooper on this one
95 Hakeem - yes, he regressed significantly on the defense end from 94, but he was still the best defender on that team by a good margin.
01 Shaq - yes, easy
02 Shaq - yes, he regressed defensively, but he was still the best on his team.
10 Kobe - no, World Peace, Odom, and Gasol were all better defensively.

EDIT: name players/seasons...after we've gotten a few responses, I'll edit some of the more popular choices into my original post

Those are my picks

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The more I look back at Bron's playoff run, the more it leaves me impressed. Lebron in 16 playoff wins: 31/11/6 with 2 steals on 51% shooting. In 4 wins vs the Celts (Miami's toughest series) he averaged 35.5 ppg, 12.5 rpg and 4.3 apg on 54% shooting.

More perspective? Despite Boston being "old", Boston was #1 in FG% defense and #2 in ppg allowed.

His defense was pretty good too. Granger went from 21.4 ppg in the 1st round to 13.3 ppg vs Lebron in the 2nd round. In four Miami wins, Bron outscored him by 19.5 ppg - and he doesnt even have to outscore somebody to outplay them. Guy averaged a double double for 3 straight series and outscored Wade in all 12 of their playoff wins.

Dude went through Carmelo, Granger, Pierce, and Durant. A finals mvp, a 3-time scoring champ, 4 straight guys who have been allstars. Lebron had a better series than all of them. Are people still saying he didn't "earn it"? :confusedshrug:

[Hands of Iron]

Why 01-02 Shaq but not 2000? He put a revamped focus into his game, anchored the best defense in the league. He wasnt 1st Team All-D because there is only one spot and the DPOY Mourning got it. Shaq was 2nd in voting and probably deserved it too. Was also the year more clear than any other he was in the driver's seat as Kobe was a year away from making the leap. 2000 was his true banner year.

[DatAsh]

Why 01-02 Shaq but not 2000? He put a revamped focus into his game, anchored the best defense in the league. He wasnt 1st Team All-D because there is only one spot and the DPOY Mourning got it. Shaq was 2nd in voting and probably deserved it too. Was also the year more clear than any other he was in the driver's seat as Kobe was a year away from making the leap. 2000 was his true banner year.

2000 Shaq is already in the consensus section.

[Hands of Iron]

2000 Shaq is already in the consensus section.

:applause:

[KG215]

its just a hypocritical method for people to say "jordan scottie yay!" then when kobes name comes up

"ummm actually... big men this! big men that! defensive anchor! big men are more important!

its just typical to appreciate a wing defenders defense when theyre someone you worship
No one is doing that, though. No one is calling Jordan and Pippen top 10 defenders of all-time.


ike i said. theres no respect for kobe on this site.. how is it a guy who coaches one of the greatest defensive players ever ( tim duncan ) can come out publicly on live television ( one of the greatest basketball minds of all time ) and say "kobe bryant is better than tim duncan at defense"
What year did Popovich say that? What was the context of the quote? Kobe might have been the most talented and/or best defender in the league when he said that. It still doesn't mean Kobe's one of the 10 best defensive players ever.


thats an ultimate level of respect.... and no one here seems to have any sign of respect for anything kobe does
No, you just get your panties in a wad anytime people don't agree with some of your "bold" Kobe claims. I've repeatedly said Kobe was not only a very good defender, but a great player. I have nothing against Kobe. He's in my top 10 all-time.


winning titles with epic defense on some of the best scorers of all time = PPFFFFHT HE ONLY DEFENDED COURTNY LEE SINCE 2000 DERP!!!!!!!!
Who were some of these all-time great scorers Kobe guarded during his five championship seasons? Allen Iverson in 2001. Who else?

And for what it's worth, I'd probably put 2009 Kobe on the list for this thread.

[kennethgriffin]

i still don't understand how anyone on the 2009 lakers was a better defender than kobe

even in 2010 artest was kind of out of shape compared to kobe


2009 and 2010 were the last years of his actual prime.

1st team all defense both years

pau wasnt a great defender, bynum barely played... odom came off the bench, ariza was good. but not on a prime kobe defensive level

fisher sucked at d

[Hands of Iron]

I don't see much wrong with Kobe 2009. Everything went about perfectly for him that season.

[Hands of Iron]

He was really superb in 2010 after he got his knee drained in the first round against OKC. Obliterated Utah and Phoenix. Actually had a pretty good series against Boston up until the Game 7 shooting threw everything out of wack. Percentages are a delicate thing with such a small sample size. He got No Help on the road. People already forget Shrek and Donkey, Gasol getting stuffed multiple times around the basket. :oldlol:

[Odinn]

The best offensive player - the best defensive player (since the merger);
2012: LeBron - LeBron
2011: Nowitzki - Chandler
2010: Kobe - Gasol
2009: Kobe - Gasol
2008: Garnett - Garnett (PP34 can be called better offensive player)
2007: Duncan - Duncan
2006: Wade - Posey
2005: Duncan - Duncan
2004: Billups - Big Ben
2003: Duncan - Duncan
2002: Shaq - Shaq
2001: Shaq - Shaq
2000: Shaq - Shaq
1999: Duncan - DRob (Duncan can be called better defensive player)
1998: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1997: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1996: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1995: Hakeem - Hakeem
1994: Hakeem - Hakeem
1993: Jordan - Jordan
1992: Jordan - Jordan
1991: Jordan - Jordan
1990: Zeke - Laimbeer
1989: Zeke - Laimbeer
1988: Magic - Cooper
1987: Magic - Cooper
1986: Bird - McHale or Parish or DJ
1985: Magic or Kareem - Cooper
1984: Bird - DJ or Parish or McHale
1983: Moses - Bobby Jones
1982: Kareem - Kareem
1981: Bird - Parish
1980: Kareem - Kareem
1979: Gus Williams - DJ
1978: Hayes - Hayes
1977: Walton - Walton

[kennethgriffin]

The best offensive player - the best defensive player (since the merger);
2012: LeBron - LeBron
2011: Nowitzki - Chandler
2010: Kobe - Gasol
2009: Kobe - Gasol
2008: Garnett - Garnett (PP34 can be called better offensive player)
2007: Duncan - Duncan
2006: Wade - Posey
2005: Duncan - Duncan
2004: Billups - Big Ben
2003: Duncan - Duncan
2002: Shaq - Shaq
2001: Shaq - Shaq
2000: Shaq - Shaq
1999: Duncan - DRob (Duncan can be called better defensive player)
1998: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1997: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1996: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1995: Hakeem - Hakeem
1994: Hakeem - Hakeem
1993: Jordan - Jordan
1992: Jordan - Jordan
1991: Jordan - Jordan
1990: Zeke - Laimbeer
1989: Zeke - Laimbeer
1988: Magic - Cooper
1987: Magic - Cooper
1986: Bird - McHale or Parish or DJ
1985: Magic or Kareem - Cooper
1984: Bird - DJ or Parish or McHale
1983: Moses - Bobby Jones
1982: Kareem - Kareem
1981: Bird - Parish
1980: Kareem - Kareem
1979: Gus Williams - DJ
1978: Hayes - Hayes
1977: Walton - Walton


softy pau ... a better defender than prime kobe bryant?







i officially hate ISH

[dunksby]

Kareem 71, 80, 82.
Jordan 91, 92, 93.
Hakeem 94,95.
Shaq 00, 01,02
Duncan 03,05,07
Kobe 09, 10.
LeBron 12.

[TheMarkMadsen]

I don't see much wrong with Kobe 2009. Everything went about perfectly for him that season.


Yeah I don't understand the problem with Kobe in 09 either :confusedshrug:

He has a case for 2010 aswell, Ron was still a great defender but he had lost a step, I'd still prolly take Artest though, he played well against OKC & Boston, the Lakers 2 toughest opponents that year.

People really just hate to give Kobe any credit for anything, you'd think after Lebron finally got the monkey off his back people would relax a bit and put into perspective just how hard it is to win a ring, no matter who your teamates are.. but no still gobbs of the blind hate

[kennethgriffin]

Yeah I don't understand the problem with Kobe in 09 either :confusedshrug:

He has a case for 2010 aswell, Ron was still a great defender but he had lost a step, I'd still prolly take Artest though, he played well against OKC & Boston, the Lakers 2 toughest opponents that year.

People really just hate to give Kobe any credit for anything, you'd think after Lebron finally got the monkey off his back people would relax a bit and put into perspective just how hard it is to win a ring, no matter who your teamates are.. but no still gobbs of the blind hate


you gotta understand... some people hate kobe so god damn much out of jealousy and spite over his success with the lakers. it forces them to treat everything he does with a "grain of salt" as one moron was quoted yesterday

its a combination of kobes attitude

+

the laker franchise

+

his accomplishments

+

his fans being cocky, spoiled, confident

+

beating their favorite team/player


it all adds up into one big confu*ckle of hatred

[Odinn]

The best offensive player - the best defensive player (since the merger);
2012: LeBron - LeBron
2011: Nowitzki - Chandler
2010: Kobe - Gasol
2009: Kobe - Gasol
2008: Garnett - Garnett (PP34 can be called better offensive player)
2007: Duncan - Duncan
2006: Wade - Posey
2005: Duncan - Duncan
2004: Billups - Big Ben
2003: Duncan - Duncan
2002: Shaq - Shaq
2001: Shaq - Shaq
2000: Shaq - Shaq
1999: Duncan - DRob (Duncan can be called better defensive player)
1998: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1997: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1996: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1995: Hakeem - Hakeem
1994: Hakeem - Hakeem
1993: Jordan - Jordan
1992: Jordan - Jordan
1991: Jordan - Jordan
1990: Zeke - Laimbeer
1989: Zeke - Laimbeer
1988: Magic - Cooper
1987: Magic - Cooper
1986: Bird - McHale or Parish or DJ
1985: Magic or Kareem - Cooper
1984: Bird - DJ or Parish or McHale
1983: Moses - Bobby Jones
1982: Kareem - Kareem
1981: Bird - Parish
1980: Kareem - Kareem
1979: Gus Williams - DJ
1978: Hayes - Hayes
1977: Walton - Walton
softy pau ... a better defender than prime kobe bryant?

i officially hate ISH
Mission accomplished.

[kennethgriffin]

Mission accomplished.

so you admit you post based on if it will make a kobe fan hate ISH

isnt that openly admitting to being a troll?

BAN

[Hands of Iron]

Yeah I don't understand the problem with Kobe in 09 either :confusedshrug:

He has a case for 2010 aswell, Ron was still a great defender but he had lost a step, I'd still prolly take Artest though, he played well against OKC & Boston, the Lakers 2 toughest opponents that year.

People really just hate to give Kobe any credit for anything, you'd think after Lebron finally got the monkey off his back people would relax a bit and put into perspective just how hard it is to win a ring, no matter who your teamates are.. but no still gobbs of the blind hate

I don't really hate him at all, I'm just not down with the 'Let's poo on 2000-2002 Shaq' mentality.

[KG215]

I don't really hate him at all, I'm just not down with the 'Let's poo on 2000-2002 Shaq' mentality.

That's my biggest problem with Kobe, too, and it has everything to do with his fans. I just get tired of his ISH fans downplaying Shaq's dominance/greatness during the 3-peat and some even going as far to say Kobe was his equal.

And Griff, I don't get what you're upset about. It seems like there's just as many or more people saying 2009 Kobe was the team's best defender and offensive player than there are saying he wasn't. He's definitely got a case for 2010, too, I just don't know if you can definitively say he was better than Artest the entire playoffs.

[Hands of Iron]

Does griff think I'm being insincere? I mean all of it.

Kobe's got it for 2009 imo and has a strong case in 2010 as well. Those were probably by far his most satisfying years in the league along with '08 as well. He had three consecutive great playoff runs through the Finals.

[Heavincent]

Pau a better defender than kobe? :oldlol:

[Odinn]

so you admit you post based on if it will make a kobe fan hate ISH

isnt that openly admitting to being a troll?

BAN
Nope. You're a Kobe-stan which can't handle a "Kobe is not the best XXX" situtation. How many non-Kobe-stan posters respect you in your opinion?

You posted a complete BS(mainly coz of your style, not your argument) to protect your precious Kobe's fame. I posted an arguable but still pretty solid list and you immediately turned into this a Kobe-Pau argument.

[rmt]

what argument? lol

2009 kobe was still practically in his physical prime... he was a legit 1st team all nba defender

only in 2010,11,12 were people saying "he trys hald the time on D"

kobe is beyond a shadow of a doubt ATLEAST one of the top 10 defenders of all time

that much is impossible to argue. because hes GOT THE MOST ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAMS IN HISTORY


my god... why am i even having to debate stuff like this?

:facepalm

i'm out

LOL at Kobe being one of the top 10 defenders of all time. That statement is just plain disrespectful to all the big men whose impact was much greater than KB and all the defensive specialists (Michael Cooper, MJ, Pippen, Payton, Bowen, Artest, Battier, Tony Allen) especially in recent years as Kobe devouts all his energy to the offensive end. It's a disgrace that he's been voted on 1st defensive teams the past few years based solely on reputation. When has he expended any energy on the defensive side recently and which offensive juggernauts is he guarding?

[KG215]

Nope. You're a Kobe-stan which can't handle a "Kobe is not the best XXX" situtation. How many non-Kobe-stan posters respect you in your opinion?

Since he occasionally makes posts about how he changed so many people's minds, he probably thinks lots. In reality, you don't even need all of the fingers on one hand to count the number of non-Kobe fanboy posters that generally agree with him.

To be fair, though, he does occasionally make a good post. As long as it's not about Kobe or tipping, I usually don't have a problem with what he says.

[Odinn]

Since he occasionally makes posts about how he changed so many people's minds, he probably thinks lots. In reality, you don't even need all of the fingers on one hand to count the number of non-Kobe fanboy posters that generally agree with him.

To be fair, though, he does occasionally make a good post. As long as it's not about Kobe or tipping, I usually don't have a problem with what he says.
One crucial detail.

[Smoke117]

what argument? lol

2009 kobe was still practically in his physical prime... he was a legit 1st team all nba defender

only in 2010,11,12 were people saying "he trys hald the time on D"

kobe is beyond a shadow of a doubt ATLEAST one of the top 10 defenders of all time

that much is impossible to argue. because hes GOT THE MOST ALL DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAMS IN HISTORY


my god... why am i even having to debate stuff like this?

:facepalm

i'm out


:roll: :roll: :roll:

This stupid clown actually has Kobe over David Robinson. The only player over David Robinson in the modern nba defensively is Hakeem Olajuwon. You don't know shit about basketball Kenneth and you are such a kobe stan that every time you post something you make yourself look like a bigger and bigger idiot.

[KG215]

One crucial detail.

That was just a nice way of saying I very rarely agree with anything he posts.

[Hands of Iron]

'95 Hakeem isn't consensus by now? Sure, it wasnt at the same level as 90-94 but it'll do just fine as it pertains to the 1995 Rockets. He was ridiculously ill all through that run offensively obviously. Doesn't even need more than the eye test.

[DatAsh]

The best offensive player - the best defensive player (since the merger);
2012: LeBron - LeBron
2011: Nowitzki - Chandler
2010: Kobe - Gasol
2009: Kobe - Gasol
2008: Garnett - Garnett (PP34 can be called better offensive player)
2007: Duncan - Duncan
2006: Wade - Posey
2005: Duncan - Duncan
2004: Billups - Big Ben
2003: Duncan - Duncan
2002: Shaq - Shaq
2001: Shaq - Shaq
2000: Shaq - Shaq
1999: Duncan - DRob (Duncan can be called better defensive player)
1998: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1997: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1996: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1995: Hakeem - Hakeem
1994: Hakeem - Hakeem
1993: Jordan - Jordan
1992: Jordan - Jordan
1991: Jordan - Jordan
1990: Zeke - Laimbeer
1989: Zeke - Laimbeer
1988: Magic - Cooper
1987: Magic - Cooper
1986: Bird - McHale or Parish or DJ
1985: Magic or Kareem - Cooper
1984: Bird - DJ or Parish or McHale
1983: Moses - Bobby Jones
1982: Kareem - Kareem
1981: Bird - Parish
1980: Kareem - Kareem
1979: Gus Williams - DJ
1978: Hayes - Hayes
1977: Walton - Walton

Good list, but I disagree with Rodman having a case over Pippen for the second three peat. Rodman's defense had regressed more than Jordan's defense by that point. Pippen's defense was just on another level from that of Jordan and Rodman. Most people at the time even considered Jordan the second best defender on that team.

[G.O.A.T]

Without a Doubt
Mikan 1949-1950, 1951-1954
Schayes 1955
Pettit 1958
Wilt 1967
Kareem 1971, 1980
Walton 1977
Jordan 1991-1993
Hakeem 1994-1995
Shaq 2000-2002
Duncan 2003, 2005, 2007
LeBron 2012

A strong case can be made for
Russell 1962 -1964
Reed 1970
Kareem 1982
Jordan 1997
Duncan 1999
Garnett 2008
Kobe 2009

A case could be made for, but I don't see it
Russell 1965
Wilt 1972
Frazier 1973
Cowens 1974, 1976
Hayes 1978
Bird 1981
Moses 1983
Kareem 1985
Jordan 1996. 1998
Kobe 2010

Good Thread, some interesting discussions.

[Smoke117]

The best offensive player - the best defensive player (since the merger);
2012: LeBron - LeBron
2011: Nowitzki - Chandler
2010: Kobe - Gasol
2009: Kobe - Gasol
2008: Garnett - Garnett (PP34 can be called better offensive player)
2007: Duncan - Duncan
2006: Wade - Posey
2005: Duncan - Duncan
2004: Billups - Big Ben
2003: Duncan - Duncan
2002: Shaq - Shaq
2001: Shaq - Shaq
2000: Shaq - Shaq
1999: Duncan - DRob (Duncan can be called better defensive player)
1998: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1997: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1996: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1995: Hakeem - Hakeem
1994: Hakeem - Hakeem
1993: Jordan - Jordan
1992: Jordan - Jordan
1991: Jordan - Jordan
1990: Zeke - Laimbeer
1989: Zeke - Laimbeer
1988: Magic - Cooper
1987: Magic - Cooper
1986: Bird - McHale or Parish or DJ
1985: Magic or Kareem - Cooper
1984: Bird - DJ or Parish or McHale
1983: Moses - Bobby Jones
1982: Kareem - Kareem
1981: Bird - Parish
1980: Kareem - Kareem
1979: Gus Williams - DJ
1978: Hayes - Hayes
1977: Walton - Walton

David Robinson was clearly the better defensive player in 1999. It was his giving away the mantle being the main offensive weapon that allowed him to concentrate on defense. David Robinson was better than Tim Duncan on defense from 1998-2001. He was clearly the better defensive player during their 99 championship season, so no Duncan was not the best player offensively and defensively for that 99 championship and no Duncan cannot be called the better defender.

[Overdrive]

well... its impossible to have a big man fan admit any player except a big are the best defensive players ever

[...]

Kobe just isn't that great of an defender as many bigman on the all time list and he's not the best perimeter defender in the '00s not even close, don't talk about all time - he just happens to be the bigger name and play good defense if he wants to.

I can admit that little man are better defenders than bigman, but Kobe just doesn't fit it brought up against threepeat Shaq or other good to great defensive bigman.

[Jacks3]

lol @ people who think Pau was the best defender in 2009 and 2010. Just wow.

I've watched every single playoff game from those years and he wasn't even close.

In 09 it was Odom or Ariza.

In 2010 it was Artest.

SMH.

[chips93]

The best offensive player - the best defensive player (since the merger);
2012: LeBron - LeBron
2011: Nowitzki - Chandler
2010: Kobe - Gasol
2009: Kobe - Gasol
2008: Garnett - Garnett (PP34 can be called better offensive player)
2007: Duncan - Duncan
2006: Wade - Posey
2005: Duncan - Duncan
2004: Billups - Big Ben
2003: Duncan - Duncan
2002: Shaq - Shaq
2001: Shaq - Shaq
2000: Shaq - Shaq
1999: Duncan - DRob (Duncan can be called better defensive player)
1998: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1997: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1996: Jordan - Rodman or Pippen
1995: Hakeem - Hakeem
1994: Hakeem - Hakeem
1993: Jordan - Jordan
1992: Jordan - Jordan
1991: Jordan - Jordan
1990: Zeke - Laimbeer
1989: Zeke - Laimbeer
1988: Magic - Cooper
1987: Magic - Cooper
1986: Bird - McHale or Parish or DJ
1985: Magic or Kareem - Cooper
1984: Bird - DJ or Parish or McHale
1983: Moses - Bobby Jones
1982: Kareem - Kareem
1981: Bird - Parish
1980: Kareem - Kareem
1979: Gus Williams - DJ
1978: Hayes - Hayes
1977: Walton - Walton

great list

but personally id rather have dumars or rodman as the best defensive player on the bad boy pistons, over laimbeer

rodman was the defensive player of the year in 1990

[The Choken One]

lol @ people who think Pau was the best defender in 2009 and 2010. Just wow.

I've watched every single playoff game from those years and he wasn't even close.

In 09 it was Odom or Ariza.

In 2010 it was Artest.

SMH.
This.

They're just trolls who just didn't want to give it to Kobe so Gasol was first to mind. I would say Ariza over Odom and then obviously Artest.

[Smoke117]

don't agree with anyone who thinks Jordan was the Bulls best defender through the first three peat. By 1991 Scottie Pippen had become the Bulls best defensive player, period.

[ThunderStruk022]

don't agree with anyone who thinks Jordan was the Bulls best defender through the first three peat. By 1991 Scottie Pippen had become the Bulls best defensive player, period.

Five more threads. If you make the exact same post in five more threads then it will make this 100%, without a doubt, it's not even up for debate...true.

[INDI]

LeBron and jordan
He is ony considered that because of popularity. Lebron is NOT a better defensive player then Shane battier

[fpliii]

(added this to the OP)

I've put together a table of the results (currently live through Post #176 by INDI @9:22PM EST):

link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdFNEQm1STW9CQmhNVXFFcHc5MkQ3O VE)

Key (usernames on left, player seasons on top):
GREEN = strong approve
YELLOW = approve
ORANGE = disapprove
RED = strong disapprove
BLUE = no stance
(for the colorblind/visually-impaired, I've entered numbers 3,1,-1,3 in the cells for the categories above respectively, with no stance currently blank...the numbers don't mean much, but if you click the number and season, e.g. '95 Hakeem', it'll give you a sum of the numbers in the column)

I've counted everybody's votes so far who's posted in this thread, so if you weren't being serious, be sure to reply (don't edit your post, I'm not going to look through the thread again). If you mentioned a player and named the season (for guys with multiple cases) it's a strong approve/disapprove. If you just give a name, I (weak) approved you for all of that guy's years. Let me know if there are any problems with the entries in your row.

[rmt]

Defensive rankings are stupid because people have an extreme bias for star players. Where does a guy like Thabo Sefolosha rank? You know, a player that actually specializes in defense. Sefolosha is as good as it gets for a perimeter defender, yet I never see his name in these lists. Why is that?

The all-defensive teams in recent years is like a who's who's in stars. People like Thabo, Battier and Tony Allen who night in, night out take on the stars of the league get shafted for the stars like Kobe and Chris Paul.


popovich saying kobe was the most tallented defender in the nba ( during the last year of tims prime )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liIYL7YcePI

Talent doesn't translate into impact when he doesn't expend much energy on the defensive side of the court since he's so busy chucking the ball on the other side.



like i said. theres no respect for kobe on this site.. how is it a guy who coaches one of the greatest defensive players ever ( tim duncan ) can come out publicly on live television ( one of the greatest basketball minds of all time ) and say "kobe bryant is better than tim duncan at defense"


Link to where Pop says this? You do know that quotation marks means his exact words.

[Heavincent]

The all-defensive teams in recent years is like a who's who's in stars. People like Thabo, Battier and Tony Allen who night in, night out take on the stars of the league get shafted for the stars like Kobe and Chris Paul.

I agree. Thabo is honestly one of the absolute best perimeter defenders I have ever seen. It's a shame he'll probably be mostly forgotten about 20 years from now despite being one of the best defenders.

[RRR3]

He is ony considered that because of popularity. Lebron is NOT a better defensive player then Shane battier
Yes he is and it's remotely close. Someone clearly doesn't watch Heat games:facepalm When LeBron guarded Melo, he held him to like 25% shooting. When Battier guarded him, Melo shot like 53 percent. LeBron did a better job on Durant as well. It's not close, LeBron is easily the best defender, scorer, ballhandler, and passer on the Heat. Hell, he was even their best rebounder in the playoffs.

[RRR3]

I agree. Thabo is honestly one of the absolute best perimeter defenders I have ever seen. It's a shame he'll probably be mostly forgotten about 20 years from now despite being one of the best defenders.
He's good but LeBron went off on him:pimp:


Also, LOL @ another thread being derailed by LeBron and Kobe stans/haters. Give it a rest

[Heavincent]

He's good but LeBron went off on him:pimp:


Not really on him. He did most of his damage with Durant guarding him.

And remember when Thabo owned Wade? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXKiu__JUmQ

Hysterical.

[RRR3]

Not really on him. He did most of his damage with Durant guarding him.

And remember when Thabo owned Wade? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXKiu__JUmQ

Hysterical.
LeBron got Sefo good in the post. Also hit that dagger 3 on him :pimp:. What do you have against Wade? :oldlol:

[Heavincent]

What do you have against Wade? :oldlol:

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225216

[RRR3]

http://insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=225216
everyone flops:confusedshrug:

[Heavincent]

everyone flops:confusedshrug:

Nobody does it as much or as excessively as Wade. CP3 and Blake are pretty extreme too, and I don't really like them either.

Wade is just ridiculous with the constant whining and flopping. He throws his body into defenders on so many of his jump shots and drives. It's just not the way the game was meant to be played.

[Legends66NBA7]

:facepalm

Like how this thread turned into a bash fest.

There was some nice convo here too.


:oldlol: at this ****ing clown. The "gawd" bullshit tells us all we need to know about this adolescent.

So Kobe was the Lakers best player yet the '01 Lakers went 11-3 without him, while the '02 Lakers went just 7-8 without Shaq? :roll:

Quiet trying to rewrite history, kid.

Yeah, I wish that "gawd" shit would stop too, but that guy is a clear gimmick.


Once again Kobe fans fail to understand they're the reason why Kobe gets so much backlash.

You're post doesn't even specify that reason (which is Kobe ranked over better defensive players) and pick a clip (I didn't watch, but I'm going to bet it's a blow by after Kobe tried to close out) that can be turned on any player.

Kobe haters are a reason for his backlash, for biased hand picked agenda and hating.


#1 Bill Russell
#2 Kevin Garnett
#3 Scottie Pippen
#4 Dennis Rodman
#5 Hakeem Olajuwon
#6 Michael Jordan
#7 Dwight Howard
#8 Ben Wallace
#9 Tim Duncan
#10 Kobe Bryant
#11 Gary Payton
#12 Kareem Abdul Jabbar
#13 David Robinson
#14 Wilt Chamberlain
#15 Walt Frazier
#16 John Havlicek
#17 Jason Kidd
#18 Dennis Johnson
#19 Bruce Bowen
#20 Michael Cooper

And then this shit happens. :facepalm

Guy, I don't even know if your trying to be real sometimes.


What do you have against Wade?

I thought you had something against Wade too.

[Cali Syndicate]

Side note, Kobe shouldn't even be higher than Gary Payton who is arguably the best perimeter defender of all time.

[fpliii]

let's get back on topic here, there were some great discussions going on before this became a pissing contest

[andgar923]

Kobe was never the best defender for any Laker team.

It was either Ariza, Artest, Shaq, George, Payton, and an argument can even be made that Shaw carried more of the defensive duties.

Kobe is great 'when he wants too'.

That's not the same as the best defender.

[Odinn]

don't agree with anyone who thinks Jordan was the Bulls best defender through the first three peat. By 1991 Scottie Pippen had become the Bulls best defensive player, period.
1st 3peat Jordan's defense > any version of Pippen's defense.

[Odinn]

Good list, but I disagree with Rodman having a case over Pippen for the second three peat. Rodman's defense had regressed more than Jordan's defense by that point. Pippen's defense was just on another level from that of Jordan and Rodman. Most people at the time even considered Jordan the second best defender on that team.
IMO, Rodman has a case over Pippen for the 2nd 3peat. But I agree, Pippen was their best defender.

[Odinn]

great list

but personally id rather have dumars or rodman as the best defensive player on the bad boy pistons, over laimbeer

rodman was the defensive player of the year in 1990
IMO, Laimbeer made more impact than Rodman on defense in both playoffs. That's why I wrote him down. But Dumars and Rodman still have a case over him of course.

[Odinn]

David Robinson was clearly the better defensive player in 1999. It was his giving away the mantle being the main offensive weapon that allowed him to concentrate on defense. David Robinson was better than Tim Duncan on defense from 1998-2001. He was clearly the better defensive player during their 99 championship season, so no Duncan was not the best player offensively and defensively for that 99 championship and no Duncan cannot be called the better defender.
:facepalm :facepalm

Claiming DRob being a better defender than Duncan in 1999, clearly - has a chance to be acceptable.
But claiming Duncan not being the best offensive player the Spurs had in 1999, that's just joke.:facepalm

[rmt]

:facepalm :facepalm

Claiming DRob being a better defender than Duncan in 1999, clearly - has a chance to be acceptable.
But claiming Duncan not being the best offensive player the Spurs had in 1999, that's just joke.:facepalm

Odinn, I think he means best offensive AND defensive player if the case is made for DRob defensively.

Duncan has the edge in numbers (11.5 reb to 9.9, 2.6 blks to 2.4) and all-defensive 1st team to no all-defensive honors for DRob. But TD played 8 more mins/game. Whether one wants to see this as a negative for TD - more time to get more reb/blks or as a positive - just a lot more time spent on the court contributing defensively - is up to the individual. And there is only one center spot vs 2 forward spots on the all-defensive teams (1 of 4 vs 0 of 2).

[CJ Mustard]

Still waiting for an argument for Pierce being better offensively than KG in 2008. Pierce averaged 0.6 more PPG on like 7% less from the field in the regular season, and got outscored by KG in the Playoffs while still being less efficient.

They're pretty much equal as passers/playmakers too. And I'm pretty sure the Celtics offense struggled more when KG was on the bench as opposed to Pierce.

Pierce sucked all Playoffs and had one good series against the Lakers and suddenly was the Celtics best offensive player. Hilarious how nobody has made even a passable argument for Pierce yet.

[turnaroundJ]

In the 2010 NBA Finals, Doc Rivers said that "Kobe might be the best help defender since Pippen."

[Owl]

If left blank = agreed, argument given where dubious. Obviously whether you include rebounding or consider it a seperate factor would lead to some differences of opinion.

Unanimous:
67 Wilt
71 Kareem
80 Kareem
94 Hakeem
95 Hakeem
00 Shaq
03 Duncan

Consensus:
91 Jordan
92 Jordan
93 Jordan
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
05 Duncan
07 Duncan
09 Kobe: Very arguable on D. Kobe has elite defensive ability but doesn't always give the full effort at that end. Ariza, Gasol, Odom and Bynum could all be argued. Certainly not clear cut enough for benefit of the doubt. Some will argue offense too.

Currently Being Discussed:
62 Russell: Can't see it. It's the only year he has a shot at best offensive player but Sam Jones is getting the same points in less minutes, shooting higher percentages from the field and the line and spacing the floor. Russell has a slight assists edge. He has a shot if you're factoring in offensive boards.
70 Reed: Not clear cut at either end. Frazier on offense, DeBusschere and Frazier on defense. I'd lean Frazier on O (a huge disparity on assists for such a ball sharing club, plus Frazier better from the field, from the line and at drawing fouls), don't know about D, Frazier and DD were probably the best at their positions, but there's more competition at center.
72 Wilt: Much as I like Wilt, it's very hard to call Wilt the best offensive player by this point.
73 Frazier: I lean towards agreement but you could probably argue on D.
77 Walton: There's a weak argument for Lucas on O, but really this it's Walton.
78 Hayes: Arguments for Dandridge at both ends especially if rebounds are considered separate. Not clear cut enough for benefit of the doubt.
82 Kareem: Agree, though some competition (Magic on O, Cooper on D)
83 Moses: Haven't seen enough of them. To get D you would have to be including boards, otherwise probably Cheeks and Jones have superior reps and Erving has strong stats too. My leaning would be no because it isn't clear cut. Don't know though.
85 Kareem: Probably behind Magic on O by now, inferior TS%, plus Magic's assists swing it. Don't know about D, might still be more impactful than Cooper, haven't seen enough.
86 Bird: Offense yes, defense no. Whilst still mobile and so a good defender probably not as good as McHale, Parish and DJ, certainly not enough distance from all 3 for benefit of the doubt.
96-98 Jordan: Defense is close though I and DPoY voters have him above Rodman (he got more one dimensional as his career went on). MJ Pip is close but I'd tend to lean Pip by this point. 1998 MJ could probably claim just on Pippen missing so much time.
99 Duncan: No, Robinson better on D.
08 Garnett: I'd say yes but you can argue the merits of rest of the big three and especially Pierce on O.
10 Kobe: See Kobe '09
12 LeBron: Agree

Need More Opinions:
49-50, 52-54 Mikan: Don't know enough about the Lakers defenses. Mikkelsen and Pollard were good players. I've seen mixed reviews on Mikan's D. I'd lean no, but I can't really back it up.
55 Schayes: I'm going to say no. By his own admission a horrible defender. No other sources for this but I can't imagine why he'd lie.
58 Pettit: Don't know enough about defense. Those who weigh playoffs heavily (not I) would have to give Hagan the nod on O for outscoring Pettit by 3.5ppg and shooting more than 10% better from the field and the same edge in TS%.
63-65 Russell: No, see Russell '62 but with Jones increasing ppg and other new offensive talent coming in.
74 Havlicek: For the '74 team it's probably too close on both ends (Cowens or Hondo on O, Cowens, Hondo or Silas or at a stretch others on D) for either he or Cowens to claim though if forced to pick one I'd lean Cowens.
70 Frazier: Arguable. Probably too much competition on D for benefit of the doubt.
74 Cowens: See Hondo '74
76 Cowens: My leaning is Cowens was their best player on both ends, but very close each time, so I'd be fine with not giving the benefit of the doubt.
81 Bird: Probably not for the same reasons as '86 though at this point only Parish is the competion on D and Larry might be a little more spry. So certainly arguable but probably not enough distance from Parish on D. In '84 Bird made 2nd team all-D so that might be his best shot.
01-02 Kobe: Even if you think he was better on D, offense is inarguable.


I've put together a table of the results (currently live through Post #176 by INDI @9:22PM EST):

link (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdFNEQm1STW9CQmhNVXFFcHc5MkQ3O VE)

Key (usernames on left, player seasons on top):
GREEN = strong approve
YELLOW = approve
ORANGE = disapprove
RED = strong disapprove
BLUE = no stance
(for the colorblind/visually-impaired, I've entered numbers 3,1,-1,3 in the cells for the categories above respectively, with no stance currently blank...the numbers don't mean much, but if you click the number and season, e.g. '95 Hakeem', it'll give you a sum of the numbers in the column)

I've counted everybody's votes so far who's posted in this thread, so if you weren't being serious, be sure to reply (don't edit your post, I'm not going to look through the thread again). If you mentioned a player and named the season (for guys with multiple cases) it's a strong approve/disapprove. If you just give a name, I (weak) approved you for all of that guy's years. Let me know if there are any problems with the entries in your row.

[G.O.A.T]

@ Owl,

I think Russell's case in 1962 is pretty strong. I'm not sure I'm wholly convinced, but I see the argument as being if nothing else, compelling.

The basis for it are quotes from Havlicek and Auerbach after Russell's retirement.

Havlicek sounded off about how much the team missed Russell's passing (along with the expected drop off defensively and on the boards) He cited how much the Celtics depended on Russell to set up their shots in the half court.

Auerbach affirms that dependency by pointing out that 1962 was the season they started running the offense through Russell part time, by 1964 he was their primary half court facilitator.

The support comes in many forms...

Russell missed four regular season games consecutively that season, in late January. Boston lost all four. They went 6-0 in his first six games back including avenging losses to the Hawks and Knicks during which Russell topped 25 points.

He was second on the Celtics in scoring that season behind Heinsohn. Tommy tossed in 22 to Russell's 19, but big Bill was more efficient (only Sam Jones shot a higher percentage that year by .007%) and averaged more than twice as many assists per game. Sam Jones, in his first year as a starter scored less than Russell and until the playoffs that season had done little to build the reputation he would later deserve.

In the playoffs Russell's case gets even stronger. He led Boston in scoring during the postseason despite playing 7 of their 14 games against the Wilt Chamberlain who had by all accounts the best defensive playoffs of his life to date. He also led the Celtics in fg% and was second in assists. We don't have the numbers but it seems safe to assume he also led the team in offensive rebounds, thus he created the most extra possessions when his team missed in addition to be the most efficient when he did shoot. His one consistent offensive weakness throughout the season and every extended stretch in his career, foul shooting, was not an issue during the postseason as he made near 3/4ths of his 100+ attempts from the stripe.

As a brief addition it is notable, that while I put little stock in win shares, some do and Russ had twice as many offensive win shares during the '62 playoffs as any of his teammates. In fact Russell also had a clear edge in efg% and total shooting% (also silly stats, but at least based on something you can see and understand)

Finally in the Celtics biggest game of the season, game seven of the finals, with Cousy and Jones having awful first halves and Heinsohn saddled with foul trouble, it was Russell who led them in scoring, racking up 30 points en route to their fourth consecutive title and fifth in six years.

[pauk]

Unanimous:
67 Wilt
71 Kareem
80 Kareem
94 Hakeem
95 Hakeem
00 Shaq
03 Duncan
12 Lebron

That i fully agree with, those should not trigger any single braincell to a different path.

[fpliii]

Unanimous:
67 Wilt
71 Kareem
80 Kareem
94 Hakeem
95 Hakeem
00 Shaq
03 Duncan
12 Lebron

That i fully agree with.

oops, I had LeBron under being discussed, but he's consensus (just fixed it)

the only thing keeping him out of unanimous is one vote from someone who picked Battier over him:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7765812&postcount=176

I have to update the votes before going to bed

[pauk]

oops, I had LeBron under being discussed, but he's consensus (just fixed it)

the only thing keeping him out of unanimous is one vote from someone who picked Battier over him:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showpost.php?p=7765812&postcount=176

I have to update the votes before going to bed

Poster: INDI.... haha... thats all i need to know. Battier being anywhere close to Lebron defensively in 2012 is the funniest thing i ever heard in my life... not to mention Lebron recieved the most 1st All-Defensive team votes this year (yes, even more than the guy who won DPOY, where Lebron was in contest of winning that to aswell)

Anyways, I was thinking of 1991 Jordan to, but Pippen man... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBJy6AWQA... not saying he was better defensively than Jordan at that time but nor do i say Jordan was better than Pippen defensively... i am not that Jordan biased, i love Pippen to death... Pippen was a unique animal defensively...

[fpliii]

Poster: INDI.... haha... thats all i need to know. Battier being anywhere close to Lebron defensively in 2012 is the funniest thing i ever heard in my life... not to mention Lebron recieved the most 1st All-Defensive team votes this year (yes, even more than the guy who won DPOY, where Lebron was in contest of winning that to aswell)

Anyways, I was thinking of 1991 Jordan to, but Pippen man... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbjBJy6AWQA... not saying he was better defensively than Jordan at that time but nor do i say Jordan was better than Pippen defensively... i am not that Jordan biased, i love Pippen to death... Pippen was a unique animal defensively...

one of these days I need to do some research and find the leading vote-getters for all of the all-defensive teams

a site to which I contribute has partial voting:

http://gorba77.w.interia.pl/01NBA/08awards/21All-DefensiveTeams.xls

but maybe I'll try to fill some holes in this week

as it stands though, it's interesting though how all of the guys voted in on the unanimous list are 5 of the 6 bigs in the current 'consensus top 10' list

all we have to do now is get Russell in for one of his runs :rockon:

[pauk]

one of these days I need to do some research and find the leading vote-getters for all of the all-defensive teams

a site to which I contribute has partial voting:

http://gorba77.w.interia.pl/01NBA/08awards/21All-DefensiveTeams.xls

but maybe I'll try to fill some holes in this week

as it stands though, it's interesting though how all of the guys voted in on the unanimous list are 5 of the 6 bigs in the current 'consensus top 10' list

all we have to do now is get Russell in for one of his runs :rockon:

For 2012 you can see here: http://www.nba.com/2012/news/05/23/nba-all-defensive-team-2011-2012/index.html

Lebron was the top vote-getter... and Tyson Chandler (who i think didnt deserve the DPOY over Ibaka/Howard or Lebron) got much less votes where he even finished on the 2nd all-defensive team. A panel of 30 headcoaches > A panel of Media.

[fpliii]

spreadsheet updated:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdFNEQm1STW9CQmhNVXFFcHc5MkQ3O VE


If left blank = agreed, argument given where dubious. Obviously whether you include rebounding or consider it a seperate factor would lead to some differences of opinion.

I'm not including rebounding at the moment, as I consider it as a separate phase of the game (and no real arguments made so far have noted rebounding except for 83 Moses)...after this project is (more) complete, we can figure that out (though in most cases it should be clear cut)

[pauk]

So let me get this right Fpliiii, 12 Lebron is not on that "unanimous" list of yours because you considered just ONE troll/joke....

Even if its just one person on this entire universe who thinks like INDI here you would have to go through behemothic amount of hallucinogenic remedy and paranormal blessing to just by mistake provoke this thought of "Lebron NOT being better than Battier defensively".... better yet that you as a sane OP to seriously consider his opinion and make a conclusion on his troll opinion....

What you are doing there is no different than excluding Mugsy Bouges as the unanimous shortest player in NBA history because one poor soul on this universe happened to say somebody else was shorter, despite YOU perfectly knowing the facts of Mugsy Bouges indeed being the shortest player ever....

Lebron IS/WAS by far the best defensive player in Miami 2012 and could even very safely be argued amongst the likes of Ibaka/Howard to who the best defensive player in the NBA is (even if he isnt, he is right there defensively and thats not a place where Battier is anywhere dimensionally close to).........

To say that Lebron is not better than Battier defensively deserves an instant ban or at least in your case an instant DISCONCLUSION of that horrific statement making any type of impact here...

[fpliii]

So let me get this right Fpliiii, 12 Lebron is not on that "unanimous" list of yours because you considered just ONE troll/joke....

Even if its just one person on this entire universe who thinks like INDI here you would have to go through behemothic amount of hallucinogenic remedy and paranormal blessing to just by mistake provoke this thought of "Lebron NOT being better than Battier defensively".... better yet that you as a sane OP to seriously consider his opinion and make a conclusion on his troll opinion....

What you are doing there is no different than excluding Mugsy Bouges as the unanimous shortest player in NBA history because one poor soul on this universe happened to say somebody else was shorter, despite YOU perfectly knowing the facts of Mugsy Bouges indeed being the shortest player ever....

Lebron IS/WAS by far the best defensive player in Miami 2012 and could even very safely be argued amongst the likes of Ibaka/Howard to who the best defensive player in the NBA is (even if he isnt, he is right there defensively and thats not a place where Battier is anywhere dimensionally close to).........

To say that Lebron is not better than Battier defensively deserves an instant ban or at least in your case an instant DISCONCLUSION of that horrific statement making any type of impact here...

yeah, but this is based on everybody's votes

you don't have to convince me, I think he was the best defender on the Heat this season

INDI voting Battier defies the definition of unanimity, so unless he retracts his vote I can't change the list in the OP

I'm sure everybody will get voted down at some point, so maybe I should combine the top two lists

[Owl]

@ Owl,

I think Russell's case in 1962 is pretty strong. I'm not sure I'm wholly convinced, but I see the argument as being if nothing else, compelling.

The basis for it are quotes from Havlicek and Auerbach after Russell's retirement.

Havlicek sounded off about how much the team missed Russell's passing (along with the expected drop off defensively and on the boards) He cited how much the Celtics depended on Russell to set up their shots in the half court.

Auerbach affirms that dependency by pointing out that 1962 was the season they started running the offense through Russell part time, by 1964 he was their primary half court facilitator.

The support comes in many forms...

Russell missed four regular season games consecutively that season, in late January. Boston lost all four. They went 6-0 in his first six games back including avenging losses to the Hawks and Knicks during which Russell topped 25 points.

He was second on the Celtics in scoring that season behind Heinsohn. Tommy tossed in 22 to Russell's 19, but big Bill was more efficient (only Sam Jones shot a higher percentage that year by .007%) and averaged more than twice as many assists per game. Sam Jones, in his first year as a starter scored less than Russell and until the playoffs that season had done little to build the reputation he would later deserve.

In the playoffs Russell's case gets even stronger. He led Boston in scoring during the postseason despite playing 7 of their 14 games against the Wilt Chamberlain who had by all accounts the best defensive playoffs of his life to date. He also led the Celtics in fg% and was second in assists. We don't have the numbers but it seems safe to assume he also led the team in offensive rebounds, thus he created the most extra possessions when his team missed in addition to be the most efficient when he did shoot. His one consistent offensive weakness throughout the season and every extended stretch in his career, foul shooting, was not an issue during the postseason as he made near 3/4ths of his 100+ attempts from the stripe.

As a brief addition it is notable, that while I put little stock in win shares, some do and Russ had twice as many offensive win shares during the '62 playoffs as any of his teammates. In fact Russell also had a clear edge in efg% and total shooting% (also silly stats, but at least based on something you can see and understand)

Finally in the Celtics biggest game of the season, game seven of the finals, with Cousy and Jones having awful first halves and Heinsohn saddled with foul trouble, it was Russell who led them in scoring, racking up 30 points en route to their fourth consecutive title and fifth in six years.
There's a case for Bill, but not one compelling enough for my tastes. His points per 36 are substantially lower than Heinsohn, Ramsey, Jones and Cousy, of those Ramsey and Jones also have better ts% and Heinsohn's is close. Cousy finished third in assists per game and was still getting MVP votes (albeit questionable ones by that point) and presumably not on the merit of his defense.

All that said Russell certainly warrants consideration due to his playmaking, his totals (playing more minutes he had more impact) and especially if you factored offensive boards (which it seems we aren't) and put substantial weight on the playoffs (I don't generally though I do understand how Russell consistently raised his game and his stats against the tougher competition in the playoffs) the case would be certainly be peruasive. As it is I lean towards Sam Jones and think theres enough competition and too little separation from the pack in Russell's candidacy as best offensive player for him to get the benefit of the doubt.

[Psileas]

49 Mikan
50 Mikan
52 Mikan
53 Mikan
54 Mikan
55 Schayes
58 Pettit
62 Russell
63 Russell
64 Russell
65 Russell
67 Wilt
71 Kareem
70 Reed
70 Frazier
72 Wilt
73 Frazier
74 Havlicek
74 Cowens
76 Cowens
77 Walton
78 Hayes
80 Kareem
81 Bird
82 Kareem
83 Moses
85 Kareem
86 Bird
91 Jordan
92 Jordan
93 Jordan
94 Hakeem
95 Hakeem
96 Jordan
97 Jordan
98 Jordan
99 Duncan
00 Shaq
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
01 Kobe
02 Kobe
03 Duncan
05 Duncan
07 Duncan
08 Garnett
09 Kobe
10 Kobe
12 LeBron

[G.O.A.T]

There's a case for Bill, but not one compelling enough for my tastes. His points per 36 are substantially lower than Heinsohn, Ramsey, Jones and Cousy, of those Ramsey and Jones also have better ts% and Heinsohn's is close. Cousy finished third in assists per game and was still getting MVP votes (albeit questionable ones by that point) and presumably not on the merit of his defense.

All that said Russell certainly warrants consideration due to his playmaking, his totals (playing more minutes he had more impact) and especially if you factored offensive boards (which it seems we aren't) and put substantial weight on the playoffs (I don't generally though I do understand how Russell consistently raised his game and his stats against the tougher competition in the playoffs) the case would be certainly be peruasive. As it is I lean towards Sam Jones and think theres enough competition and too little separation from the pack in Russell's candidacy as best offensive player for him to get the benefit of the doubt.

We all have our own opinions. Maybe Russell wasn't ever their best offensive player but Sam Jones was probably their fourth best offensive player then, essentially all he brought to the offense was set shooting. Don't confuse him witth the Sam Jones from 1965 or even the '64 playoffs. I'd be curious to here your or anyone else's case for Jones, Cousy or Heinsohn over Russell. I can't imagine it'd be as strong objectively as what I laid down for Russ.

[fpliii]

Psileas - Thanks for the input, I've added your picks to the spreadsheet. I'm very interested in 62 Russell conversation that Owl and G.O.A.T are having. Any input from yourself and jlip (who also mentioned Russ) would be greatly appreciated.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aoy3YD7IdypTdFNEQm1STW9CQmhNVXFFcHc5MkQ3O VE

[KG215]

fpliii, looking at that spreadsheet, and I guess I didn't make it very clear, but I would vote for Jordan during the first 3-peat. I think it's almost a no-brainer in '91 and '92. As for Kobe, I do give him a vote for '09 but I'm on the fence about '10. I may also just be confused by your color coding or whatever.

I don't want this to count as a vote, but I saw someone mention Schayes himself said he wasn't a very good defender, but I've read other snippets mentioning he was a solid defender. He also had the most DWS on the '55 Hawks over Paul Seymour (5.7 to 4.5) but I don't know enough about him or that team to really give any insightful input.

[fpliii]

fpliii, looking at that spreadsheet, and I guess I didn't make it very clear, but I would vote for Jordan during the first 3-peat. I think it's almost a no-brainer in '91 and '92. As for Kobe, I do give him a vote for '09 but I'm on the fence about '10. I may also just be confused by your color coding or whatever.

I don't want this to count as a vote, but I saw someone mention Schayes himself said he wasn't a very good defender, but I've read other snippets mentioning he was a solid defender. He also had the most DWS on the '55 Hawks over Paul Seymour (5.7 to 4.5) but I don't know enough about him or that team to really give any insightful input.

fixed, let me know if you have opinions on anybody else (red = strong oppose, orange = oppose, yellow = support, green = strong support; orange/yellow are also used if you're on the fence one way or another but specify an inclination...if you can't decide between the two, I leave the cell blue)

as for Schayes, I'm not sure what to think...I'll search my archives for possible leads one way or another (at the moment of skimming Russell's first two books though to find anything meaningful said by him about his and his teammates' offensive games in 62 + 63-65)

[LikeABosh]

Lebron was easily the best defender on the Heat last season. It's not even debatable

[Owl]

fpliii, looking at that spreadsheet, and I guess I didn't make it very clear, but I would vote for Jordan during the first 3-peat. I think it's almost a no-brainer in '91 and '92. As for Kobe, I do give him a vote for '09 but I'm on the fence about '10. I may also just be confused by your color coding or whatever.

I don't want this to count as a vote, but I saw someone mention Schayes himself said he wasn't a very good defender, but I've read other snippets mentioning he was a solid defender. He also had the most DWS on the '55 Hawks over Paul Seymour (5.7 to 4.5) but I don't know enough about him or that team to really give any insightful input.
p110 of from Set Shot to Slam Dunk
The context to all this is he initially played center a bit but couldn't guard bigs like G. Mikan and Don Otten, so was glad to be moved to forward full time.
He goes on to say roles were different back then passing guard, shooting guard, scoring forward, defensive forward and center.

"I happened to be the offensive forward so I would always play against the defensive forward and he couldn't score . So I was able to kind of free-lance. I was very fortunate in that repect because it really helped my rebounding a great deal. I never boxed out." It goes on in this vein, the next paragraph begins
"In those rare instances where I had to play defense, I really didn't do a very good job. I'd hold my man to 30 points a game, which of course made Cervi very angry ... Cervi wanted me to play more defense."

Maybe there's a touch of hyperbole there (30 points, for example), but especially as we aren't counting boards, I'd find it difficult to give Schayes best defender without a few gushing quotes from reliable sources.

[Owl]

We all have our own opinions. Maybe Russell wasn't ever their best offensive player but Sam Jones was probably their fourth best offensive player then, essentially all he brought to the offense was set shooting. Don't confuse him witth the Sam Jones from 1965 or even the '64 playoffs. I'd be curious to here your or anyone else's case for Jones, Cousy or Heinsohn over Russell. I can't imagine it'd be as strong objectively as what I laid down for Russ.
Guards capable of matching or better-Sam Jones
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1962&year_max=1962&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&qual=&c1stat=pts_per_mp&c1comp=gt&c1val=20&c2stat=ts_pct&c2comp=gt&c2val=.500&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct#stats::none
2 of the top 4 guards ever, and one other guard (remember allowing for both guard positions and guard forwards). Not to say that Jones was as good as those guys but only those players could give you at least what Jones did.
Centers capable of matching or better Russell’s scoring/shooting.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=single&type=per_game&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=1962&year_max=1962&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=ts_pct&c1comp=gt&c1val=.485&c2stat=pts_per_mp&c2comp=gt&c2val=15&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ts_pct#stats::none
Some of those (Pettit at least) weren’t playing primarily center, but it seems easy to say that Russell in terms of points production it seems clear that Russell was substantially more replaceable than Jones was.
I’d be interested to see whether and how much the Celtics did fall off (offensively, unquestionably they would defensively) in Russell’s absence, though even that might only tell us that Russell’s role could not be fulfilled by Tommy Heinsohn (the nearest thing they had to a backup center that year). It also raises the question of where we are drawing the line. Russell’s defensive rebounding added value to the Celtics’ offense but we aren’t considering rebounding presently, and even if we were would defensive board work be considered for offensive or defensive purposes or would its value be split between the two? (Note: This paragraph isn’t primarily arguing against Russell, it’s about the terms of the debate, though the point about Russell’s backup does relate to the general argument).
So it has to be based on playoffs, or passing. I’ve explained I personally don’t heavily weigh playoffs. As to passing I don’t consider Alvan Adams, Vlade Divac, Sam Lacey and Tom Boerwinkle to be the elite offensive centers of all time. Not even close to. Just the best passers. Even when utilised as an old fashioned high post pivot, a center’s passing is unlikely to be of high importance to their overall offensive value (though a certain minimum which means they aren’t hugely susceptible to double teams is important for scoring bigs).

But are your arguments internally consistent. Have you constantly valued playoff production over regular season?
If so Hagan should definitely be above Pettit for the Hawks' offensive MVP. The gaps between them in, fg% and ts% are large on their own and then you see Hagan also had more points per game it’s unbelievable. Yet you have Pettit as a “without a doubt” best on both ends. He shot fully 10% worse [than Hagan] in the playoffs. From a position you’d expect a higher percentage from. Hagan has almost double Pettit’s assists too. By any standard that held Russell as the Celtics best offensive player, Hagan would surely have to have been that of Hawks.
In summary, a simplified version of my case of Jones over Russell is, better percentages from a position you’d expect worse percentages from, far more points per minute and higher usage so likely to have greater defensive attention and/or be creating more of his own shots and/or taking more difficult shots, very close to as many assists per minute, Russell’s scoring far more replaceable than Jones’.

Post edited to clarify ambiguous language.

[fpliii]

any other input, or are we fine with the list in the OP?

Consensus:
67 Wilt*
71 Kareem*
80 Kareem*
91 Jordan
92 Jordan
93 Jordan
94 Hakeem*
95 Hakeem*
00 Shaq*
01 Shaq
02 Shaq
03 Duncan*
05 Duncan
07 Duncan
09 Kobe
12 LeBron

[KG215]

p110 of from Set Shot to Slam Dunk
The context to all this is he initially played center a bit but couldn't guard bigs like G. Mikan and Don Otten, so was glad to be moved to forward full time.
He goes on to say roles were different back then passing guard, shooting guard, scoring forward, defensive forward and center.

"I happened to be the offensive forward so I would always play against the defensive forward and he couldn't score . So I was able to kind of free-lance. I was very fortunate in that repect because it really helped my rebounding a great deal. I never boxed out." It goes on in this vein, the next paragraph begins
"In those rare instances where I had to play defense, I really didn't do a very good job. I'd hold my man to 30 points a game, which of course made Cervi very angry ... Cervi wanted me to play more defense."

Maybe there's a touch of hyperbole there (30 points, for example), but especially as we aren't counting boards, I'd find it difficult to give Schayes best defender without a few gushing quotes from reliable sources.

Got ya. That is some damming evidence against his case for best defensive player on that team. I guess you have to take the humility factor into affect and, like you said, there might be some hyperbole involved, but it's still enough to say he wasn't definitively the best defensive player on that team. Not until, like you said, we see some quotes from other sources lauding him as a defender.